Elder Renlund on Suicide

[Red]

I love my children dearly, as most parents do. I would be devastated if any of them committed suicide. When I saw them in the next life I would cry tears of joy and tell them how much I missed them. I would hug them. So would the Lord. I wouldn’t slap them in the face as punshisment, and neither would the Lord. I would tell them how sorry I am that the life they had was too much to bear. So would the Lord.

I am made in the form and character of my Father in Heaven. If I am made after Him, then all of the goodness that I am is an extension of Him. If God is only good, then He can only BE good. I am flawed and I would never punish my children for being suicidal. The Lord is not flawed and he wouldn’t punish anyone for being suicidal either. I love my kids so much that I wouldn’t punish them for their struggles. I could only love them. I’m certain the Lord is the same. That is mercy. It is only through love that people make true and lasting change. The Lord’s Love is much greater than my own.

It really is amazing to me how many people absolutely do not read their scriptures. They make God in their own image rather than being made in His image.

You are making God in your own image.

It is very simple. There is no mercy without sin. Your idea of who God is and what He thinks is totally and completely flawed. With your thinking, there is no need for a Savior and thus no need for Christ. I have no idea what God thinks in general-but I do have a good understanding of the scriptures (or at least I try to) and that is where I go to find out what God thinks/believes/feels and the scriptures do not comport to your claim.

I mean this in no way denigrating you, but your idea is anti-Christ-we don't need Christ with your thinking and thus it is false and not of God.

Actually, you did intend to denigrate me. I’ve read your pattern of thought. If it’s not Mormon puritanical or follows your own school of thought, then you attack it without any logical support at all. You call it Anti-Christ. That’s a very serious accusation, especially since my post was all about God’s love. You called a post about God’s love “false and not of God”. That’s not logical. You do not understand the meaning of mercy. Here it is from the dictionary: compassion or forgiveness shown toward someone whom it is within one's power to punish or harm. If you have children, then they must think you hate them, by the sound of your response. How sad.

[Finrock]

I love my children dearly, as most parents do. I would be devastated if any of them committed suicide. When I saw them in the next life I would cry tears of joy and tell them how much I missed them. I would hug them. So would the Lord. I wouldn’t slap them in the face as punshisment, and neither would the Lord. I would tell them how sorry I am that the life they had was too much to bear. So would the Lord.

I am made in the form and character of my Father in Heaven. If I am made after Him, then all of the goodness that I am is an extension of Him. If God is only good, then He can only BE good. I am flawed and I would never punish my children for being suicidal. The Lord is not flawed and he wouldn’t punish anyone for being suicidal either. I love my kids so much that I wouldn’t punish them for their struggles. I could only love them. I’m certain the Lord is the same. That is mercy. It is only through love that people make true and lasting change. The Lord’s Love is much greater than my own.

It really is amazing to me how many people absolutely do not read their scriptures. They make God in their own image rather than being made in His image.

You are making God in your own image.

It is very simple. There is no mercy without sin. Your idea of who God is and what He thinks is totally and completely flawed. With your thinking, there is no need for a Savior and thus no need for Christ. I have no idea what God thinks in general-but I do have a good understanding of the scriptures (or at least I try to) and that is where I go to find out what God thinks/believes/feels and the scriptures do not comport to your claim.

I mean this in no way denigrating you, but your idea is anti-Christ-we don't need Christ with your thinking and thus it is false and not of God.

You're projecting. Also, questions are not logical arguments. Assertions are not logical arguments. A couple of conditional statements peppered in your response, is not a logical argument. All that you have done here is assert that one person is wrong and you are right. Proof by assertion = fallacious/faulty reasoning. Doesn't prove squat. Sorry.

What you have in your post is a forceful opinion that is projecting your internal feelings/weaknesses/doubts on to others. Some people are all in to that, reasonable people aren't.

-Finrock

[Finrock]

Helping to assist someone to commit suicide is taking advantage and ending the life, for financial gain, of a person who is not thinking right/straight/rational/normal for whatever reason. However, a person who is not in their right mind because of a number of different medical/psychological conditions and wants to commit suicide is not going to be considered a sinner, just like a person who is without law, can't sin. As healthy individuals we can see that ending one's life is not the best choice, but, it would be irrational and merciless to suppose that individuals who are suffering from psychological trauma and are not in their right mind are sinners who will suffer in hell. Look, these people are already in hell. They need to be rescued, not further damned.

For those paying attention, I just made a rational/logical argument which demonstrates (through the principles of reason) which proves that if committing suicide is not a sin then it does NOT follow that assisting someone to commit suicide is also (by logical necessity) not a sin.

-Finrock

[diligently seeking]

I love my children dearly, as most parents do. I would be devastated if any of them committed suicide. When I saw them in the next life I would cry tears of joy and tell them how much I missed them. I would hug them. So would the Lord. I wouldn’t slap them in the face as punshisment, and neither would the Lord. I would tell them how sorry I am that the life they had was too much to bear. So would the Lord.

I am made in the form and character of my Father in Heaven. If I am made after Him, then all of the goodness that I am is an extension of Him. If God is only good, then He can only BE good. I am flawed and I would never punish my children for being suicidal. The Lord is not flawed and he wouldn’t punish anyone for being suicidal either. I love my kids so much that I wouldn’t punish them for their struggles. I could only love them. I’m certain the Lord is the same. That is mercy. It is only through love that people make true and lasting change. The Lord’s Love is much greater than my own.

It really is amazing to me how many people absolutely do not read their scriptures. They make God in their own image rather than being made in His image.

You are making God in your own image.

It is very simple. There is no mercy without sin. Your idea of who God is and what He thinks is totally and completely flawed. With your thinking, there is no need for a Savior and thus no need for Christ. I have no idea what God thinks in general-but I do have a good understanding of the scriptures (or at least I try to) and that is where I go to find out what God thinks/believes/feels and the scriptures do not comport to your claim.

I mean this in no way denigrating you, but your idea is anti-Christ-we don't need Christ with your thinking and thus it is false and not of God.

"By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another"

https://youtu.be/9yOH5M6_KRI

I have yet to experience anything more rewarding / soul satisfying where I feel more whole and worthy of heaven then when I feel God's love care and attention etc flow through me to another...


1nephi 11:

21 And the angel said unto me: Behold the Lamb of God, yea, even the Son of the Eternal Father! Knowest thou the meaning of the tree which thy father saw?
22 And I answered him, saying: Yea, it is the love of God, which sheddeth itself abroad in the hearts of the children of men; wherefore, it is the most desirable above all things.
23 And he spake unto me, saying: Yea, and the most joyous to the soul.



Moroni 7:

...48 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, pray unto the Father with all the energy of heart, that ye may be filled with this love, which he hath bestowed upon all who are true followers of his Son, Jesus Christ; that ye may become the sons of God; that when he shall appear we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is; that we may have this hope; that we may be purified even as he is pure. Amen.

[Juliet]

I love my children dearly, as most parents do. I would be devastated if any of them committed suicide. When I saw them in the next life I would cry tears of joy and tell them how much I missed them. I would hug them. So would the Lord. I wouldn’t slap them in the face as punshisment, and neither would the Lord. I would tell them how sorry I am that the life they had was too much to bear. So would the Lord.

I am made in the form and character of my Father in Heaven. If I am made after Him, then all of the goodness that I am is an extension of Him. If God is only good, then He can only BE good. I am flawed and I would never punish my children for being suicidal. The Lord is not flawed and he wouldn’t punish anyone for being suicidal either. I love my kids so much that I wouldn’t punish them for their struggles. I could only love them. I’m certain the Lord is the same. That is mercy. It is only through love that people make true and lasting change. The Lord’s Love is much greater than my own.

It really is amazing to me how many people absolutely do not read their scriptures. They make God in their own image rather than being made in His image.

You are making God in your own image.

It is very simple. There is no mercy without sin. Your idea of who God is and what He thinks is totally and completely flawed. With your thinking, there is no need for a Savior and thus no need for Christ. I have no idea what God thinks in general-but I do have a good understanding of the scriptures (or at least I try to) and that is where I go to find out what God thinks/believes/feels and the scriptures do not comport to your claim.

I mean this in no way denigrating you, but your idea is anti-Christ-we don't need Christ with your thinking and thus it is false and not of God.

Actually, you did intend to denigrate me. I’ve read your pattern of thought. If it’s not Mormon puritanical or follows your own school of thought, then you attack it without any logical support at all. You call it Anti-Christ. That’s a very serious accusation, especially since my post was all about God’s love. You called a post about God’s love “false and not of God”. That’s not logical. You do not understand the meaning of mercy. Here it is from the dictionary: compassion or forgiveness shown toward someone whom it is within one's power to punish or harm. If you have children, then they must think you hate them, by the sound of your response. How sad.

I don't think God punishes us. The truth is we punish ourselves. God created the spheres and we live in them and when we break the laws of those spheres there are consequences. If you commit suicide you lose out on what could have been a lifetime of joys and blessings and experiences. That is punishment enough. God will succor us even when we mess up. It is a mistake to commit suicide and the consequence is you lose a lifetime of opportunity. Going home and being loved and succored by God won't diminsh the consequences of the choices made.

So while Red is preaching the spirit of the law mgridle is preaching the letter of the law. I don't see much conflict I think you are both correct.

[mgridle1]

I love my children dearly, as most parents do. I would be devastated if any of them committed suicide. When I saw them in the next life I would cry tears of joy and tell them how much I missed them. I would hug them. So would the Lord. I wouldn’t slap them in the face as punshisment, and neither would the Lord. I would tell them how sorry I am that the life they had was too much to bear. So would the Lord.

I am made in the form and character of my Father in Heaven. If I am made after Him, then all of the goodness that I am is an extension of Him. If God is only good, then He can only BE good. I am flawed and I would never punish my children for being suicidal. The Lord is not flawed and he wouldn’t punish anyone for being suicidal either. I love my kids so much that I wouldn’t punish them for their struggles. I could only love them. I’m certain the Lord is the same. That is mercy. It is only through love that people make true and lasting change. The Lord’s Love is much greater than my own.

It really is amazing to me how many people absolutely do not read their scriptures. They make God in their own image rather than being made in His image.

You are making God in your own image.

It is very simple. There is no mercy without sin. Your idea of who God is and what He thinks is totally and completely flawed. With your thinking, there is no need for a Savior and thus no need for Christ. I have no idea what God thinks in general-but I do have a good understanding of the scriptures (or at least I try to) and that is where I go to find out what God thinks/believes/feels and the scriptures do not comport to your claim.

I mean this in no way denigrating you, but your idea is anti-Christ-we don't need Christ with your thinking and thus it is false and not of God.

Actually, you did intend to denigrate me. I’ve read your pattern of thought. If it’s not Mormon puritanical or follows your own school of thought, then you attack it without any logical support at all. You call it Anti-Christ. That’s a very serious accusation, especially since my post was all about God’s love. You called a post about God’s love “false and not of God”. That’s not logical. You do not understand the meaning of mercy. Here it is from the dictionary: compassion or forgiveness shown toward someone whom it is within one's power to punish or harm. If you have children, then they must think you hate them, by the sound of your response. How sad.

No I did not denigrate you-I specifically said the idea. Your response is one reason why I generally don't put caveats in front of what I say anymore-it doesn't do any good.

What you say is no logical support is not correct-you are simply projecting. You claim you can read my pattern of thought. You claim that my children must think I hate them. How judgmental of you, how tolerant of you? How sad that you must resort to personal attacks.

But it is okay-I forgive you for your personal attacks; you don't know what you are doing nor what you are saying-so I forgive you.

No, your idea is false and flawed b/c NO ONE gets to the Father except through Christ. In all recorded scripture, no man has seen God the Father without the Son and there are only a few recorded instances of man seeing God the Father.

God is merciful because He send His Son. THAT is the MANIFESTATION of God's love. "For God so love the World . . ." In the hereafter you will not be able to embrace God the Father without going through the Son. He is our Advocate and our Judge. You cannot and WILL NOT be able to enter into God's embrace without Christ's approval first.

So if we want to enter into God's embrace, then we should learn about Christ and His words. He tells us "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven".

What is the will of the Father? The 10 commandments would be a good start.
D&C 59:6 "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. Thou shalt not steal; neither commit adultery, nor kill, nor do anything like unto it"

Basic 10 commandments, do not kill or do anything like unto it. Suicide is killing oneself therefore it is PROHIBITED by the 10 commandments. If it is prohibited by the 10 commandments that means to do so is a sin! If it is a sin, it means it must be repented of and it it must be repented of the only way to do that is through the Atonement of Jesus Christ!

To say suicide is not a sin, is so utterly false it's stunning that an apostle said it. It's almost like it's a test to see who is actually paying attention to God's word through His scriptures and who isn't . . .

To say it is a sin, doesn't mean the person is condemned to hell or anything like that-it just means that it MUST BE repented of.

This is why I said your idea of who God is and what He is about is so totally flawed, it is anti-Christ. Because if God just accepts us all just the way we are, then there is no need to change, there is no need to repent and there is no need for a Savior-thus it is anti-Christ.

[mgridle1]

I love my children dearly, as most parents do. I would be devastated if any of them committed suicide. When I saw them in the next life I would cry tears of joy and tell them how much I missed them. I would hug them. So would the Lord. I wouldn’t slap them in the face as punshisment, and neither would the Lord. I would tell them how sorry I am that the life they had was too much to bear. So would the Lord.

I am made in the form and character of my Father in Heaven. If I am made after Him, then all of the goodness that I am is an extension of Him. If God is only good, then He can only BE good. I am flawed and I would never punish my children for being suicidal. The Lord is not flawed and he wouldn’t punish anyone for being suicidal either. I love my kids so much that I wouldn’t punish them for their struggles. I could only love them. I’m certain the Lord is the same. That is mercy. It is only through love that people make true and lasting change. The Lord’s Love is much greater than my own.

It really is amazing to me how many people absolutely do not read their scriptures. They make God in their own image rather than being made in His image.

You are making God in your own image.

It is very simple. There is no mercy without sin. Your idea of who God is and what He thinks is totally and completely flawed. With your thinking, there is no need for a Savior and thus no need for Christ. I have no idea what God thinks in general-but I do have a good understanding of the scriptures (or at least I try to) and that is where I go to find out what God thinks/believes/feels and the scriptures do not comport to your claim.

I mean this in no way denigrating you, but your idea is anti-Christ-we don't need Christ with your thinking and thus it is false and not of God.

Actually, you did intend to denigrate me. I’ve read your pattern of thought. If it’s not Mormon puritanical or follows your own school of thought, then you attack it without any logical support at all. You call it Anti-Christ. That’s a very serious accusation, especially since my post was all about God’s love. You called a post about God’s love “false and not of God”. That’s not logical. You do not understand the meaning of mercy. Here it is from the dictionary: compassion or forgiveness shown toward someone whom it is within one's power to punish or harm. If you have children, then they must think you hate them, by the sound of your response. How sad.

I don't think God punishes us.

Again false teachings.
Romans 1:8
"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;"

You have to twist that scripture a lot to make it say God doesn't punish us. . .

[mgridle1]

I love my children dearly, as most parents do. I would be devastated if any of them committed suicide. When I saw them in the next life I would cry tears of joy and tell them how much I missed them. I would hug them. So would the Lord. I wouldn’t slap them in the face as punshisment, and neither would the Lord. I would tell them how sorry I am that the life they had was too much to bear. So would the Lord.

I am made in the form and character of my Father in Heaven. If I am made after Him, then all of the goodness that I am is an extension of Him. If God is only good, then He can only BE good. I am flawed and I would never punish my children for being suicidal. The Lord is not flawed and he wouldn’t punish anyone for being suicidal either. I love my kids so much that I wouldn’t punish them for their struggles. I could only love them. I’m certain the Lord is the same. That is mercy. It is only through love that people make true and lasting change. The Lord’s Love is much greater than my own.

It really is amazing to me how many people absolutely do not read their scriptures. They make God in their own image rather than being made in His image.

You are making God in your own image.

It is very simple. There is no mercy without sin. Your idea of who God is and what He thinks is totally and completely flawed. With your thinking, there is no need for a Savior and thus no need for Christ. I have no idea what God thinks in general-but I do have a good understanding of the scriptures (or at least I try to) and that is where I go to find out what God thinks/believes/feels and the scriptures do not comport to your claim.

I mean this in no way denigrating you, but your idea is anti-Christ-we don't need Christ with your thinking and thus it is false and not of God.

Actually, you did intend to denigrate me. I’ve read your pattern of thought. If it’s not Mormon puritanical or follows your own school of thought, then you attack it without any logical support at all. You call it Anti-Christ. That’s a very serious accusation, especially since my post was all about God’s love. You called a post about God’s love “false and not of God”. That’s not logical. You do not understand the meaning of mercy. Here it is from the dictionary: compassion or forgiveness shown toward someone whom it is within one's power to punish or harm. If you have children, then they must think you hate them, by the sound of your response. How sad.

The truth is we punish ourselves.

Got it so if I kill someone else . . .it's really only me punishing myself b/c of my conscience. Hey I've got a great idea-I'll just do away with my conscience so I don't punish myself.

Cool

[mgridle1]

I love my children dearly, as most parents do. I would be devastated if any of them committed suicide. When I saw them in the next life I would cry tears of joy and tell them how much I missed them. I would hug them. So would the Lord. I wouldn’t slap them in the face as punshisment, and neither would the Lord. I would tell them how sorry I am that the life they had was too much to bear. So would the Lord.

I am made in the form and character of my Father in Heaven. If I am made after Him, then all of the goodness that I am is an extension of Him. If God is only good, then He can only BE good. I am flawed and I would never punish my children for being suicidal. The Lord is not flawed and he wouldn’t punish anyone for being suicidal either. I love my kids so much that I wouldn’t punish them for their struggles. I could only love them. I’m certain the Lord is the same. That is mercy. It is only through love that people make true and lasting change. The Lord’s Love is much greater than my own.

It really is amazing to me how many people absolutely do not read their scriptures. They make God in their own image rather than being made in His image.

You are making God in your own image.

It is very simple. There is no mercy without sin. Your idea of who God is and what He thinks is totally and completely flawed. With your thinking, there is no need for a Savior and thus no need for Christ. I have no idea what God thinks in general-but I do have a good understanding of the scriptures (or at least I try to) and that is where I go to find out what God thinks/believes/feels and the scriptures do not comport to your claim.

I mean this in no way denigrating you, but your idea is anti-Christ-we don't need Christ with your thinking and thus it is false and not of God.

What you have in your post is a forceful opinion that is projecting your internal feelings/weaknesses/doubts on to others.
-Finrock

Seriously dude, I have 0 clue as to what you are talking about.

Are you saying b/c i say others who leave out the absolute necessity of Christ in our lives and who's ideology leads to a belief that there is no sin therefore no need for a Savior, b/c I call that out as Anti-Christ . ..that means that I'm secretly projecting my own feelings/weaknesses/doubt about me being an anti-Christ . . .

okey dooky . . .I think you've been enthralled too much by psychobabble so whatever dude-you can believe whatever you want to.

What a second, I've got it. What you are saying is that anyone who is against homosexuality is secretly a homosexual, everyone who is a homosexual is secretly a heterosexual, everyone who abhors pedophilia is a pedophile . . .

Seriously dude, if that is what you are saying (and maybe I'm wrong with my interpretation) you need to lay off the wacky weed there . ..

[Jesef]

Stop calling people Anti-Christs without more info, McGridle. It's ridiculous & highly offensive. Use your head. (And learn more about people's positions before name calling, jack).

[mgridle1]

Stop calling people Anti-Christs without more info, McGridle. It's ridiculous & highly offensive. Use your head. (And learn more about people's positions before name calling, jack).

I have laid out my reasons specifically. I will absolutely continue to call out those who profess a belief that leaves out Christ. Don't want to be called out-then turn to Christ.

Neither you nor Red have corrected your beliefs that leave Christ out of the picture. All I hear is, God doesn't punish us, this and that isn't sin (when up until very recently it was sin), we just all need to sit down, sing kumbayaa and be embraced in God's love. That's all that matters, just love.

There is no call of sin, no call of repentance, no call of turning away from things that God hates, no call of turning to Christ-it's just all about love. That's all that matter is love. I love my children so much, I wouldn't do xyz therefore God wouldn't do xyz b/c he loves us more. Which that is by very definition making God in your own image. Putting man in God's image is saying I love God so much that I will learn of His ways and implement His ways in my life.

Your children must hate you and you don't love your children mgridle b/c of your belief . . .okay, whatever.

It's actually funny. I do not doubt in the least bit that Red loves his/her children. But I do believe most modern day parents have a very short-sighted and mis-guided idea of what loving their children means and how to implement it. I contend that the way they show their love for their children is actually detrimental for the long-term growth, stability, and ultimate happiness for their children.

Getting back to suicide. What about the man that finds his wife in bed with another man and he just goes crazy and is in such a bad mental health status that he kills them?

Why do only those who commit suicides get a break that it's not a sin? Let's play it this way. Man find his wife in bed with another man is so distraught that he kills himself-no sin? But if he kills his wife-sin? What if he kills his wife and himself? Sin for killing his wife, no sin for killing himself?

It makes no sense. Because what people are saying when they say suicide isn't a sin is that well it's not a sin b/c the mental state of the individual-they are under such emotional/physical/mental/ anguish and pain that to kill themselves it's not a sin.

And you can't say the same thing about the man who finds his wife in bed with another man? What about his massive emotional/physical/mental anguish and finding out the one person who he loved the most in this world committed one of the worst acts of betrayal imaginable? He doesn't get a pass?

Why not, who are you to dare to be so insensitive to his massive emotional pain, how judgmental and intolerant of you to not take into account his emotional needs?

Because if he only kills his wife, that must mean that he still had most of his mental facilities. So I guess the best thing for him to do is to kill his wife, then kill himself so he can claim he was in such a distraught emotional state that there was no sin.

And b/c there is no sin, there is not need for a Redeemer and thus no need for Christ.

[Red]

McGridle, your comments are very snide. That’s not very Christ-like. I feel an absence of the spirit when I read those things. I meant what I said about your children feeling like you hate them. It was an empathic observance, not a slam. Your harsh and judgmental tone sounds very much like a mother I know who’s grown children grew up thinking she hated them. It doesn’t matter how you intend for your comments to be perceived; what matters is how they are perceived by their intended audience. I believe understanding that importance is the difference between sympathy and empathy.

[Red]

5336E68E-9E07-468E-ACF6-A6BDEFE8B5D8.jpeg (916.58 KiB) Viewed 305 times

[Juliet]

It really is amazing to me how many people absolutely do not read their scriptures. They make God in their own image rather than being made in His image.

You are making God in your own image.

It is very simple. There is no mercy without sin. Your idea of who God is and what He thinks is totally and completely flawed. With your thinking, there is no need for a Savior and thus no need for Christ. I have no idea what God thinks in general-but I do have a good understanding of the scriptures (or at least I try to) and that is where I go to find out what God thinks/believes/feels and the scriptures do not comport to your claim.

I mean this in no way denigrating you, but your idea is anti-Christ-we don't need Christ with your thinking and thus it is false and not of God.

Actually, you did intend to denigrate me. I’ve read your pattern of thought. If it’s not Mormon puritanical or follows your own school of thought, then you attack it without any logical support at all. You call it Anti-Christ. That’s a very serious accusation, especially since my post was all about God’s love. You called a post about God’s love “false and not of God”. That’s not logical. You do not understand the meaning of mercy. Here it is from the dictionary: compassion or forgiveness shown toward someone whom it is within one's power to punish or harm. If you have children, then they must think you hate them, by the sound of your response. How sad.

The truth is we punish ourselves.

Got it so if I kill someone else . . .it's really only me punishing myself b/c of my conscience. Hey I've got a great idea-I'll just do away with my conscience so I don't punish myself.

Cool

Ok, I was incorrect to say you punish yourself. The natural consequences of your choice become the punishment. God doesn't have a vendetta against anybody, He loves us all no matter what choices we make and what laws we break that bring upon us or others suffering and consequences. Sin causes pain and suffering naturally and hopefully a relationship with God can help us stop sinning because His love brings us to wanting to keep His commandments as we learn to love Him.

I agree with our need for repentance and our need for a Savior. The fruit of the spirit is a sound mind. Therefore mental derangement is a consequence of not having the Holy Spirit. Repentance is the solution, adherence to truth. Many suicidal people entertain many thoughts that are not only negative but are untrue and the suffering that results is painful. Hopefully they can learn to leave those thoughts that cause such pain behind and embrace the truth which brings feelings of happiness and well being.

[Jesef]

Stop calling people Anti-Christs without more info, McGridle. It's ridiculous & highly offensive. Use your head. (And learn more about people's positions before name calling, jack).

I have laid out my reasons specifically. I will absolutely continue to call out those who profess a belief that leaves out Christ. Don't want to be called out-then turn to Christ.

Neither you nor Red have corrected your beliefs that leave Christ out of the picture. All I hear is, God doesn't punish us, this and that isn't sin (when up until very recently it was sin), we just all need to sit down, sing kumbayaa and be embraced in God's love. That's all that matters, just love.
..
And b/c there is no sin, there is not need for a Redeemer and thus no need for Christ.

Baloney & false accusations. You didn't bother to go read every post I've ever written on LDSFF before calling me anti-Christ, did you? You've actually violated the teachings of Christ by making a snap judgment, with insufficient info, and a horrible one at that. You've called me an Enemy to Christ, without bothering to really investigate what I believe. That's just sad. I DO believe in Christ, & Grace/Atonement, & Repentance (& Justice/Restoration, a.k.a. Karma), and forgiveness, and a host of other true gospel principles. Golden Rule, bro - I'm calling you out, on false judgment (of me). And I'm also saying you SHOULD NOT (this is your CALL to Repentance, btw) be snap-judging anyone for incomplete opinions/comments on a blog/forum thread AND YOU DEFINITELY SHOULDN'T BE calling them horrible names. You ain't authorized, bub, and unless you're sinless, you ain't even qualified. Now, if you'd like to rephrase and say something like, "that sounds like an anti-Christ idea, like Sherem, or Nehor, or Korihor, etc." - that's much less offensive. Because we're discussing ideas, man, IDEAS! Get a clue.

[mgridle1]

I meant what I said about your children feeling like you hate them. It was an empathic observance, not a slam.

And I'm Santa Claus.

I do not believe you are being truthful to yourself, to me or to God when you say it was an empathic observance-no it was directly a slam-couched in "empathy". I believe you WANT to believe you were being empathetic- but you were not-that's called self-delusion. You WANT to believe you are a very good person and would never really hate someone so much (especially a random person on the internet), to directly attack their family relationship (something you know nothing about). The whole reason you made that statement was to specifically denigrate me.

Look man, I said I forgive you for what you said-I still do. Just take my forgiveness and be done with it, instead of trying to justify your remarks.

Be honest with yourself about the purpose and reason behind what you said, when you said it and why you said it and empathy has nothing to do with it. But if you want to delude yourself-no problem, I still forgive you. I said I forgive you, so let that be the end of it.
---------
Sidenote: I do find it interesting that those who scream the most about tolerance and love are many times the worst offenders anytime they are offended.

[mgridle1]

Stop calling people Anti-Christs without more info, McGridle. It's ridiculous & highly offensive. Use your head. (And learn more about people's positions before name calling, jack).

I have laid out my reasons specifically. I will absolutely continue to call out those who profess a belief that leaves out Christ. Don't want to be called out-then turn to Christ.

Neither you nor Red have corrected your beliefs that leave Christ out of the picture. All I hear is, God doesn't punish us, this and that isn't sin (when up until very recently it was sin), we just all need to sit down, sing kumbayaa and be embraced in God's love. That's all that matters, just love.
..
And b/c there is no sin, there is not need for a Redeemer and thus no need for Christ.

Baloney & false accusations. You didn't bother to go read every post I've ever written on LDSFF before calling me anti-Christ, did you? You've actually violated the teachings of Christ by making a snap judgment, with insufficient info, and a horrible one at that. You've called me an Enemy to Christ, without bothering to really investigate what I believe. That's just sad. I DO believe in Christ, & Grace/Atonement, & Repentance (& Justice/Restoration, a.k.a. Karma), and forgiveness, and a host of other true gospel principles. Golden Rule, bro - I'm calling you out, on false judgment (of me). And I'm also saying you SHOULD NOT (this is your CALL to Repentance, btw) be snap-judging anyone for incomplete opinions/comments on a blog/forum thread AND YOU DEFINITELY SHOULDN'T BE calling them horrible names. You ain't authorized, bub, and unless you're sinless, you ain't even qualified. Now, if you'd like to rephrase and say something like, "that sounds like an anti-Christ idea, like Sherem, or Nehor, or Korihor, etc." - that's much less offensive. Because we're discussing ideas, man, IDEAS! Get a clue.

I don't need to read EVERY post you have EVER posted. I can judge plainly by your words that you have commented here. Maybe I'm wrong, and if I'm wrong and see evidence that I'm wrong then I will apologize and move on with life. But so far I stand by what I said.

If what I said is a false judgement, then one day God will judge me and I hope His mercy through His Son will shine down upon me for my sins and my mistakes. And I hope that you will forgive me if I am wrong.

[Jesef]

Wow, so you really think it's okay to judge someone an Anti-Christ in a single thread, after a couple comments, huh? Like I said, man, that's sad. But I forgive you all the same. I also feel very sorry for you. Judging without even a tiny bit of research that is easily available by clicking on someone's name and reading their past posts or even better SEARCHING their posts for references to Christ.

search.php?keywords=Christ+Jesus&terms= ... mit=Search

Looks like there are 467 matches to "Christ" or "Jesus" that I've posted. Have fun & I hope you treat others better - like how you yourself would want them to treat you! It's called the Golden Rule and True Followers of Christ actually LIVE it. Peace.

[Red]

I meant what I said about your children feeling like you hate them. It was an empathic observance, not a slam.

And I'm Santa Claus.

I do not believe you are being truthful to yourself, to me or to God when you say it was an empathic observance-no it was directly a slam-couched in "empathy". I believe you WANT to believe you were being empathetic- but you were not-that's called self-delusion. You WANT to believe you are a very good person and would never really hate someone so much (especially a random person on the internet), to directly attack their family relationship (something you know nothing about). The whole reason you made that statement was to specifically denigrate me.

Look man, I said I forgive you for what you said-I still do. Just take my forgiveness and be done with it, instead of trying to justify your remarks.

Be honest with yourself about the purpose and reason behind what you said, when you said it and why you said it and empathy has nothing to do with it. But if you want to delude yourself-no problem, I still forgive you. I said I forgive you, so let that be the end of it.
---------
Sidenote: I do find it interesting that those who scream the most about tolerance and love are many times the worst offenders anytime they are offended.

I’ve heard denial is a lovely place to live.

I am not seeking your forgiveness. I haven’t done anything to warrant forgiveness. Your projections tell a lot about you though.

Accusing me of hating you is laughable. You mean precisely zero to me. I have zero feelings for you; we have no connection. I come to the forum for discussions in logic and as a way to spark new thought in my spiritual life. You’ve fulfilled neither of those for me.

Also, I’m a girl, no need to call me “man”.

No need to reply either. I don’t enjoy debates of logic with brick walls.

[jadd]

I'm hesitant to involve myself in this and am definitely sticking my nose in where it doesn't belong, but here goes...
Jesef can be... difficult at times and can even appear arrogant or be arrogant in his overly logical way of approaching things. That being said, Red, you really kind of did/ are overeact[ing]. I applaud Jesef for forgiving what he perceives to be a trespass against himself (whether it was intended on your part or not - that being said, it is very easy to perceive why he would perceive it that way and logically if you can't see that, then you aren't being honest with yourself, Red). Furthermore, your response indicates that you, Red, are in fact reacting much more emotionally than you would like to believe yourself. Both of you have projected and the reaction between both of you is like the pot calling the kettle black. Though, if I had to cast blame, I would say that Red, you would share much more than Jesef in this exchange. The quote "You mean precisely zero to me." could be taken a few ways, the first is an emotionless response - however, were this the case then you would be denying Jesef's humanity and the fact that we are spirit children of God. Otherwise if there was emotion, it actually belies a bit of hate. Regardless your last response, Red was 1)either an emotional response or 2) a response driven by pride (which in fact is an emotional response, but much sneakier). I know because I have written (or considered writing) responses similar to yours in the past. I don't mean to say the entire response, but especially about the "I am not seeking your forgiveness."
The Prophet Joseph Smith taught, “Ever keep in exercise the principle of mercy and be ready to forgive a brother (or sister) on the first intimation of repentance and asking forgiveness. And should we even forgive our brother, or even our enemy, before he repents, and asks forgiveness, our Heavenly Father would be equally merciful to us” (Documentary History of the Church, 3:383).
In the end we all contain faults (myself included which at times includes my arrogance or pride)- so let's try and follow the Savior and just be happy that if you did sin, or even if you didn't, at least you will have one less accuser when you die.
If you do not accuse each other, God will not accuse you. If you have no accuser you will enter heaven. What many people call sin is not sin; I do many things to break down superstition, and I will break it down - Joseph Smith JR.

As an aside - logic is not the only way to obtain information, in fact the pursuit of all truth through logic is in itself a logical fallacy.

[Jesef]

I'm hesitant to involve myself in this and am definitely sticking my nose in where it doesn't belong, but here goes...
Jesef can be... difficult at times and can even appear arrogant or be arrogant in his overly logical way of approaching things. That being said, Red, you really kind of did/ are overeact[ing]. I applaud Jesef for forgiving what he perceives to be a trespass against himself (whether it was intended on your part or not - that being said, it is very easy to perceive why he would perceive it that way and logically if you can't see that, then you aren't being honest with yourself, Red). Furthermore, your response indicates that you, Red, are in fact reacting much more emotionally than you would like to believe yourself. Both of you have projected and the reaction between both of you is like the pot calling the kettle black. Though, if I had to cast blame, I would say that Red, you would share much more than Jesef in this exchange. The quote "You mean precisely zero to me." could be taken a few ways, the first is an emotionless response - however, were this the case then you would be denying Jesef's humanity and the fact that we are spirit children of God. Otherwise if there was emotion, it actually belies a bit of hate. Regardless your last response, Red was 1)either an emotional response or 2) a response driven by pride (which in fact is an emotional response, but much sneakier). I know because I have written (or considered writing) responses similar to yours in the past. I don't mean to say the entire response, but especially about the "I am not seeking your forgiveness."
The Prophet Joseph Smith taught, “Ever keep in exercise the principle of mercy and be ready to forgive a brother (or sister) on the first intimation of repentance and asking forgiveness. And should we even forgive our brother, or even our enemy, before he repents, and asks forgiveness, our Heavenly Father would be equally merciful to us” (Documentary History of the Church, 3:383).
In the end we all contain faults (myself included which at times includes my arrogance or pride)- so let's try and follow the Savior and just be happy that if you did sin, or even if you didn't, at least you will have one less accuser when you die.
If you do not accuse each other, God will not accuse you. If you have no accuser you will enter heaven. What many people call sin is not sin; I do many things to break down superstition, and I will break it down - Joseph Smith JR.

As an aside - logic is not the only way to obtain information, in fact the pursuit of all truth through logic is in itself a logical fallacy.

Jadd, I think you might be confusing the exchanges between myself/Jesef & mgridle1 and those of Red & mgridle1. mgridle1 called me an anti-Christ a few posts back and I think he threw down the same language with reference to one of Red's posts, so it is confusing.

[jadd]

I'm hesitant to involve myself in this and am definitely sticking my nose in where it doesn't belong, but here goes...
Jesef can be... difficult at times and can even appear arrogant or be arrogant in his overly logical way of approaching things. That being said, Red, you really kind of did/ are overeact[ing]. I applaud Jesef for forgiving what he perceives to be a trespass against himself (whether it was intended on your part or not - that being said, it is very easy to perceive why he would perceive it that way and logically if you can't see that, then you aren't being honest with yourself, Red). Furthermore, your response indicates that you, Red, are in fact reacting much more emotionally than you would like to believe yourself. Both of you have projected and the reaction between both of you is like the pot calling the kettle black. Though, if I had to cast blame, I would say that Red, you would share much more than Jesef in this exchange. The quote "You mean precisely zero to me." could be taken a few ways, the first is an emotionless response - however, were this the case then you would be denying Jesef's humanity and the fact that we are spirit children of God. Otherwise if there was emotion, it actually belies a bit of hate. Regardless your last response, Red was 1)either an emotional response or 2) a response driven by pride (which in fact is an emotional response, but much sneakier). I know because I have written (or considered writing) responses similar to yours in the past. I don't mean to say the entire response, but especially about the "I am not seeking your forgiveness."
The Prophet Joseph Smith taught, “Ever keep in exercise the principle of mercy and be ready to forgive a brother (or sister) on the first intimation of repentance and asking forgiveness. And should we even forgive our brother, or even our enemy, before he repents, and asks forgiveness, our Heavenly Father would be equally merciful to us” (Documentary History of the Church, 3:383).
In the end we all contain faults (myself included which at times includes my arrogance or pride)- so let's try and follow the Savior and just be happy that if you did sin, or even if you didn't, at least you will have one less accuser when you die.
If you do not accuse each other, God will not accuse you. If you have no accuser you will enter heaven. What many people call sin is not sin; I do many things to break down superstition, and I will break it down - Joseph Smith JR.

As an aside - logic is not the only way to obtain information, in fact the pursuit of all truth through logic is in itself a logical fallacy.

Jadd, I think you might be confusing the exchanges between myself/Jesef & mgridle1 and those of Red & mgridle1. mgridle1 called me an anti-Christ a few posts back and I think he threw down the same language with reference to one of Red's posts, so it is confusing.

Haha, I think you may be correct! My apologies to Red or to you Jesef or to anyone whose posts I confused or mixed up. I guess just take the substance but ignore the names. Again, I apologize and hope you all will forgive me if I unintentionally (through my own apparent lack of reading comprehension) accused you of something you did not do.

[mgridle1]

I meant what I said about your children feeling like you hate them. It was an empathic observance, not a slam.

And I'm Santa Claus.

I do not believe you are being truthful to yourself, to me or to God when you say it was an empathic observance-no it was directly a slam-couched in "empathy". I believe you WANT to believe you were being empathetic- but you were not-that's called self-delusion. You WANT to believe you are a very good person and would never really hate someone so much (especially a random person on the internet), to directly attack their family relationship (something you know nothing about). The whole reason you made that statement was to specifically denigrate me.

Look man, I said I forgive you for what you said-I still do. Just take my forgiveness and be done with it, instead of trying to justify your remarks.

Be honest with yourself about the purpose and reason behind what you said, when you said it and why you said it and empathy has nothing to do with it. But if you want to delude yourself-no problem, I still forgive you. I said I forgive you, so let that be the end of it.
---------
Sidenote: I do find it interesting that those who scream the most about tolerance and love are many times the worst offenders anytime they are offended.

Also, I’m a girl, no need to call me “man”.

My apology, I did not realize that.

[mgridle1]

Wow, so you really think it's okay to judge someone an Anti-Christ in a single thread, after a couple comments, huh? Like I said, man, that's sad. But I forgive you all the same. I also feel very sorry for you. Judging without even a tiny bit of research that is easily available by clicking on someone's name and reading their past posts or even better SEARCHING their posts for references to Christ.

search.php?keywords=Christ+Jesus&terms= ... mit=Search

Looks like there are 467 matches to "Christ" or "Jesus" that I've posted. Have fun & I hope you treat others better - like how you yourself would want them to treat you! It's called the Golden Rule and True Followers of Christ actually LIVE it. Peace.

I would encourage you to understand the reason why I said what I did at that particular moment in time-and there is a particular line of thought and reasoning as to why. If you care to investigate, it is there, if you feel justified in self-righteous justification don't look-that's fine to.

Personally, if someone said I was espousing ideas that were anti-Christ, rather than get all bent out of shape and balled-up in some defensive porcupine, I'd try to understand exactly what was going on.

467 matches do not matter if the ideas espoused leave out Christ-which is what I believe you did in that thread . ..but rather than evaluate that yourself when called out on it-you became defensive and reactionary-still reactionary.

Think about it this way, why does some random person on the internet who you don't know, never met, probably will never met (in this life at least), why does the mention that you are espousing anti-Christ ideas throw you into a tizzy. Either it's true or not true. If it's not true, then your conscience should know it and what man says about you doesn't matter one whit-b/c it's what God says about us that matters, not man. But if it is true . . .well that might take some serious self-reflection.

But what do I know, I'm just some random dude . . .

[iWriteStuff]

No need to reply either. I don’t enjoy debates of logic with brick walls.

Any chance we could try disagreeing without being disagreeable?