Elder Renlund on Suicide

[mgridle1]

Jesus is not this angry person who is ready to punish you or cause you harm.

Actually He is, if we don't repent.
-----
Here are the word spoken by Christ.
D&C 19:
15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.
16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;
17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;
18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—
-----
If we do not repent, then His vengeance, wrath and sufferings will come upon us-Christ tells us this very plainly. If we do repent, then no it will not come upon us. So He is both someone who is ready to punish and someone who is ready to heal-it entirely depends on if we repent of our sins.

[Finrock]

Jesus is not this angry person who is ready to punish you or cause you harm.

Actually He is, if we don't repent.
-----
Here are the word spoken by Christ.
D&C 19:
15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.
16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;
17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;
18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—
-----
If we do not repent, then His vengeance, wrath and sufferings will come upon us-Christ tells us this very plainly. If we do repent, then no it will not come upon us. So He is both someone who is ready to punish and someone who is ready to heal-it entirely depends on if we repent of our sins.

I'm sorry that is your belief. Doesn't have to be.

-Finrock

[Thinker]

Finrock,
God is love. Love is striving for what’s best - and from God’s perspective, that’s eternally.
We are not punished for our sins, but by the consequences of them.
If you run full force at a brick wall, God won’t stop you nor the pain, but God also won’t hit you with the wall again.
We’re here to live and learn, primarily from our sins.
If a sin is called ok, then the learning is thwarted.

Suicide is not sin (it's not against God's laws), so why is it even bad?
Suicide is not sin so what about the person who desperately wants to end their life but can't, then involve someone else yet the other person involved has sinned?

If it's not sin, then it's just a lifestyle choice that one makes, no better no worse than whether I decide to go to school, eat eggs for breakfast or eat ham. Because if it's not against God's law and commandments, then why is it "wrong". How can it be "wrong" when it's not against the ultimate arbitrator of our lives-God laws.

See so many twists and turns and justifications and it just becomes a jumbled mess-these are the logical conclusions of labeling suicide not a sin.

Exactly! Mistaking evil for good is the problem here.
In a world where evil is so often disguised as good and visa versa, people look to the church for moral guidance. But here this representative of the church sounds like the world.

Even worse, in a way, he is promoting suicide by saying, “it’s ok, it’s not a sin.”
What he should be saying is that while we don’t know the details of life after death, consciousness is energy and energy is never destroyed. This is substantiated by Joseph Smith teaching that the same spirit that possesses us in life will be after life.

When I considered suicide, one of the main things that stopped me was the probability that I wasn’t solving any problems but very possibly creating new ones I’d have to deal with in the next life and I’d likely regret it. When I imagine the spiritual consequences of suicide, I think of the film with Robin Williams, “What Dreams May Come.” https://youtu.be/RmZ-FuBThuQ.

What church reps ought to be doing is healing and teaching how to heal, as Christ did. But that means they’d have to prioritize God/GOoD above worldly pursuits. And it means having to explore the hells we create for ourselves - which is a dirty job but necessary. This isn’t done, so when desperate, people run to doctors who are quick to prescribe pharmaceuticals, which tend to place a false bandaid over major problems rather than dealing with the problems.

As a start to healing thoughts, which in turn helps heal emotional pain, correcting cognitive distortions and healing life traps are important. Psych-ology (study of he soul) is inseparable with spirituality. To teach otherwise is preventing healing.

[mgridle1]

Jesus is not this angry person who is ready to punish you or cause you harm.

Actually He is, if we don't repent.
-----
Here are the word spoken by Christ.
D&C 19:
15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.
16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;
17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;
18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—
-----
If we do not repent, then His vengeance, wrath and sufferings will come upon us-Christ tells us this very plainly. If we do repent, then no it will not come upon us. So He is both someone who is ready to punish and someone who is ready to heal-it entirely depends on if we repent of our sins.

I'm sorry that is your belief. Doesn't have to be.

-Finrock

You're right it doesn't have to be that belief. I could believe in Buddha or Confusion, or Mohammed, or Ann Lee or any other number of faiths or beliefs.

I accept and believe in all the standard works of the LDS Church, and those standard works include the above passage of scripture.

So either the above passage of scripture (according to you) is an incorrect scripture and not truly the words of Christ to Joseph Smith or they somehow mean something the opposite of what I said.

And if the latter is the case, then I invite you to please demonstrate by scripture how I am wrong. I am a reasonable individual and I'm certainly willing to listen to other scriptures that would give a contrary viewpoint that would override my belief. I am certainly willing to listen to your interpretation of this passage (as I might be able to gain further insight); I am not willing to listen to your belief on this subject when you have not backed it up by scripture-it just becomes the philosophies of men (not even mingled with scripture!).

And if it is the former, then I don't have any cause to listen to you or believe your words as I will not listen to those who do not believe in the scriptures.

Simple saying "I'm sorry that is your belief" is quite meaningless and does nothing except insulate you in your own belief. It insulates you from actually having to do the hard work of challenging your own belief.

[Jesef]

Well, one thing you can learn from the scriptures you hold so literally to is: in that same section D&C 19 - you can learn that many of the words you thought were literal actually aren't, basic words like "endless" & "eternal", etc. If you take them literally, you come to the instant, premature, and immature conclusion that they refer strictly to "duration" - but then the section clearly reveals the mystery that they are more "allegorical" in nature, i.e. NOT LITERAL. Well, this turns the whole scriptural literalism paradigm upside down. How are you supposed to know what anything really means now? Hmm? Maybe you need to really go by the Spirit, and not be so calcified in your interpretations. And use your brain, reason, intellect, Intelligence (which is Spirit & Light, right? we learn that form D&C 93 don't we, or something close to that). For example, we KNOW (not just from scripture, but deep, deep down in our souls) that God is Supremely Intelligent, Powerful, Merciful, Kind, Patient, Agency/freedom-loving (only way to grow & learn), Benevolent, as well as Fair/Just/Equitable - They are not anxious to Destroy Their own offspring (and the scripture stories that paint that picture are either missing something or might just be "motivational fear" more than reality) - anyway, being Just, we know that God will not require an Infinite punishment for a Finite crime, right? How do we know that? Because we have intelligence and we KNOW some things about their Perfect Character and a perfectly Just God wouldn't exact more punishment (justice) than the crime/harm merited. Now D&C 19 makes a little more sense, right? It does, if you can let go of some Protestant/Catholic & Mormon stereotypical doctrines that aren't really/actually TRUE (or Good for that matter). Think about it.

[mgridle1]

Well, one thing you can learn from the scriptures you hold so literally to is: in that same section D&C 19 - you can learn that many of the words you thought were literal actually aren't, basic words like "endless" & "eternal", etc. If you take them literally, you come to the instant, premature, and immature conclusion that they refer strictly to "duration" - but then the section clearly reveals the mystery that they are more "allegorical" in nature, i.e. NOT LITERAL. Well, this turns the whole scriptural literalism paradigm upside down. How are you supposed to know what anything really means now? Hmm? Maybe you need to really go by the Spirit, and not be so calcified in your interpretations. And use your brain, reason, intellect, Intelligence (which is Spirit & Light, right? we learn that form D&C 93 don't we, or something close to that). For example, we KNOW (not just from scripture, but deep, deep down in our souls) that God is Supremely Intelligent, Powerful, Merciful, Kind, Patient, Agency/freedom-loving (only way to grow & learn), Benevolent, as well as Fair/Just/Equitable - They are not anxious to Destroy Their own offspring (and the scripture stories that paint that picture are either missing something or might just be "motivational fear" more than reality) - anyway, being Just, we know that God will not require an Infinite punishment for a Finite crime, right? How do we know that? Because we have intelligence and we KNOW some things about their Perfect Character and a perfectly Just God wouldn't exact more punishment (justice) than the crime/harm merited. Now D&C 19 makes a little more sense, right? It does, if you can let go of some Protestant/Catholic & Mormon stereotypical doctrines that aren't really/actually TRUE (or Good for that matter). Think about it.

I will not respond to an anti-Christ.
Thank you good day.

[Jesef]

You're cracked, mg. I am NOT anti-Christ. And you should repent of labeling me as such based on your incomplete info - for Karma (a.k.a. the Law of Restoration) is: with what judgment (label) ye judge (label), ye shall also be judged (labeled). That's why you should always be generous and merciful & kind & NOT JUDGE. Btw, I hold nothing against you & your misjudgment - I just assume you are troubled (kink in your think) and ignorant (without complete information) - when it comes to me. Apparently, you like to demonize people without knowing them - and after what, like a few posts on a blog? This will come back to bite you. We are discussing IDEAS, bro - not passing eternal judgment on each other. Seriously, get a grip or logout.

[Jesef]

MG, and, btw, try re-reading the Gospels (including 3 Nephi) and Moroni 7 & 2 Nephi 31 - and you'll see that the ESSENCE of being a TRUE FOLLOWER of Jesus Christ is in the DOING - for example, the Pure LOVE of God/Christ, and particularly the actual expression of LOVE, or DIVINE LOVE IN ACTION, which is living the Golden Rule: treat others the way you wish to be treated. It's really that simple. Do you wish to be demonized and labeled an anti-Christ or any other horrible moniker? No, of course not - so you don't do it to others. Do you wish to be treated with respect, kindness, consideration, patience, truth/honesty, love, gentleness, virtue, harmlessness, helpfulness? Then do so to others. You see, I KNOW CHRIST, Christ is the Perfect Example & Embodiment of God & Godliness, of Goodness. You labeled me anti-Christ because you ASSumed by my not mentioning him to your satisfaction - by my using the name God/Creator instead (which btw, God-Creator is one of Christ's titles - and it is well-understood on this forum that when we refer to "God" we are referring to Christ and the Holy Ghost as well, i.e. the Godhead) - on a thread about Suicide - by my not bearing my testimony of Him specifically, to YOUR standard - on a thread/blog - you can label and judge me to be one of the most abominable monikers in our religious glossary? Are you freaking kidding me? Consider yourself formally corrected. I already forgive you though - like I said, I don't hold anyone in my debt (I withhold forgiveness from none, including you) - for I believe the words of Christ that if I forgive All of Every offense, so will I (again, you see, God & Christ also abide by Their own rules, including the Golden Rule) - and YES, you have misjudged/mislabeled me. I adjure you to discontinue doing so to ANYONE ELSE. This is a blog/forum, Bro - we don't have enough information about each other to devolve into that kind of judgment. It would be like someone calling you Homosexual for not mentioning your wife and kids here on the forum - Ridiculous, you see? Get more info - ask questions - don't make ASSumptions. Peace. Friendly advice - if you are SO bothered by someone's ideas here on the forum, feel free to go into your settings (click on their avatar/name) and add them to your "Foe" list - then you don't have to see their posts. Before you make a misjudgment & label someone, as you did me, try re-reading all of that person's posts - simple to do - click on their name and then you can view all their posts. You'll see plenty of references to Christ in my several-years' tenure here on LDSFF to widen your horizons and cure your ignorance of me. At least have more complete information before you make a judgment - but I recommend not judging at all - for reasons already stated - Christ said that, btw.

[Finrock]

Jesus is not this angry person who is ready to punish you or cause you harm.

Actually He is, if we don't repent.
-----
Here are the word spoken by Christ.
D&C 19:
15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.
16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;
17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;
18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—
-----
If we do not repent, then His vengeance, wrath and sufferings will come upon us-Christ tells us this very plainly. If we do repent, then no it will not come upon us. So He is both someone who is ready to punish and someone who is ready to heal-it entirely depends on if we repent of our sins.

I'm sorry that is your belief. Doesn't have to be.

-Finrock

You're right it doesn't have to be that belief. I could believe in Buddha or Confusion, or Mohammed, or Ann Lee or any other number of faiths or beliefs.

I accept and believe in all the standard works of the LDS Church, and those standard works include the above passage of scripture.

So either the above passage of scripture (according to you) is an incorrect scripture and not truly the words of Christ to Joseph Smith or they somehow mean something the opposite of what I said.

And if the latter is the case, then I invite you to please demonstrate by scripture how I am wrong. I am a reasonable individual and I'm certainly willing to listen to other scriptures that would give a contrary viewpoint that would override my belief. I am certainly willing to listen to your interpretation of this passage (as I might be able to gain further insight); I am not willing to listen to your belief on this subject when you have not backed it up by scripture-it just becomes the philosophies of men (not even mingled with scripture!).

And if it is the former, then I don't have any cause to listen to you or believe your words as I will not listen to those who do not believe in the scriptures.

Simple saying "I'm sorry that is your belief" is quite meaningless and does nothing except insulate you in your own belief. It insulates you from actually having to do the hard work of challenging your own belief.

I meant I'm sorry that you have this false belief about Jesus. It doesn't have to be that way. You are choosing this belief in this type of Jesus that you believe in probably because of your life experiences. I can relate.

-Finrock

[EmmaLee]

1 Corinthians 6:19-20
"What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For we are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God's."

I am reminded here that our bodies are temples, and not ours to dispose of as we wish. With all the stuff about tattoos, body modifications, body jewelry, abuse of the body with drugs, alcohol, and tobacco and this being considered a sin, and the way you get excommunicated for abortion, and I could go on and on here, it seems extraordinary that destroying our own body to the point of no return would not be a sin at all.

Great point. Don't you dare have more than one piercing in each ear lobe, ladies, but if you kill yourself, no biggie.

https://www.lds.org/manual/true-to-the- ... g?lang=eng

Latter-day prophets strongly discourage the piercing of the body except for medical purposes. If girls or women desire to have their ears pierced, they are encouraged to wear only one pair of modest earrings.

Those who choose to disregard this counsel show a lack of respect for themselves and for God. They will someday regret their decision.

The Apostle Paul taught of the significance of our bodies and the danger of purposefully defiling them: “Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are” (1 Corinthians 3:16–17).

Some consistency would be nice. But since the gay lobby isn't pressuring the Church to renounce their ear-piercing directive, I don't see it changing any time soon - and it will most likely remain a grave sin, unlike suicide.

I also agree with those who have said this statement by an apostle may very well have the exact opposite intended effect. MORE LDS people may kill themselves now that it's not a sin anymore. And who could blame them? Not me.

[Red]

Suicide is a sin.
I think most suicides are not in their right mind when they do it, but the act itself (taking a human life) is a sin.
Also, I think Elder Renlund is mistaken to call the common doctrine around suicide "sectarian". It's a Catholic doctrine.

On the part "old sectarian notion that suicide is a sin", I'm not sure what he is referring to but it sure seems like the Gospel of Christ is being watered down a lot these days and many things that were previously sins are no now longer "sins", without the membership of the Church even ratifying any new revelations.

The things the Church taught just 10-15 years ago are now passe, old, and "sectarian".

And this quote "I believe the vast majority of cases will find that these individuals have lived heroic lives and that that suicide will not be a defining characteristic of their eternities"

Excuse me . . . "lived heroic lives" what kind of absolute blather is this. An individual killed themselves, they committed murder against themselves, yet they "lived heroic lives", give me a break.

and this from Princess (what a name . . .)
"To call someone who is attempting suicide selfish is really not OK because there are other things that they are struggling with"

umm, yeah that is the definition of selfishness. "there are other things that they are struggling with", so that means the person who commits suicide is so preoccupied with their own problems, their own interests, their own misery that they can't see what horrible effect their ending their life will have on others. I think that's pretty much the exact definition of selfish.

It is disgusting . . .no where in ANY of these press releases was Jesus Christ mentioned . . .AT ALL!!! We claim we are His Church, yet an Apostle of His in answer to a very vexing problem couldn't manage (or at least in the press release) couldn't manage to invoke His name, His Atonement or even a scripture?

Seriously? What a travesty.

No, it seems rather than relying on God's word and on Christ's word I'm hearing more and more humanistic platitudes from the top. Platitudes that I can FIND ANYWHERE! I can find these same platitudes with counselors, mental health professions, psychologists, etc.

So if I can find these platitudes found in most places, praytell what exact ADDED value does a Church provide? B/c obviously Christ isn't much of the center anymore . . . .

And they completely ignore that suicide is mainly a 1st-world problem. Suicides do happen across the world, but it is highly correlated with 1st-world status (the same with depression, anxiety, etc.) which probably means it has something to do with our current nihilistic, narcissistic culture.

I thought Mormons were supposed to uphold and follow their apostles’ teachings? Elder Renlund is in the Quorom of the Twelve, correct? Do you not support him as you do the prophet?

[mgridle1]

Suicide is a sin.
I think most suicides are not in their right mind when they do it, but the act itself (taking a human life) is a sin.
Also, I think Elder Renlund is mistaken to call the common doctrine around suicide "sectarian". It's a Catholic doctrine.

On the part "old sectarian notion that suicide is a sin", I'm not sure what he is referring to but it sure seems like the Gospel of Christ is being watered down a lot these days and many things that were previously sins are no now longer "sins", without the membership of the Church even ratifying any new revelations.

The things the Church taught just 10-15 years ago are now passe, old, and "sectarian".

And this quote "I believe the vast majority of cases will find that these individuals have lived heroic lives and that that suicide will not be a defining characteristic of their eternities"

Excuse me . . . "lived heroic lives" what kind of absolute blather is this. An individual killed themselves, they committed murder against themselves, yet they "lived heroic lives", give me a break.

and this from Princess (what a name . . .)
"To call someone who is attempting suicide selfish is really not OK because there are other things that they are struggling with"

umm, yeah that is the definition of selfishness. "there are other things that they are struggling with", so that means the person who commits suicide is so preoccupied with their own problems, their own interests, their own misery that they can't see what horrible effect their ending their life will have on others. I think that's pretty much the exact definition of selfish.

It is disgusting . . .no where in ANY of these press releases was Jesus Christ mentioned . . .AT ALL!!! We claim we are His Church, yet an Apostle of His in answer to a very vexing problem couldn't manage (or at least in the press release) couldn't manage to invoke His name, His Atonement or even a scripture?

Seriously? What a travesty.

No, it seems rather than relying on God's word and on Christ's word I'm hearing more and more humanistic platitudes from the top. Platitudes that I can FIND ANYWHERE! I can find these same platitudes with counselors, mental health professions, psychologists, etc.

So if I can find these platitudes found in most places, praytell what exact ADDED value does a Church provide? B/c obviously Christ isn't much of the center anymore . . . .

And they completely ignore that suicide is mainly a 1st-world problem. Suicides do happen across the world, but it is highly correlated with 1st-world status (the same with depression, anxiety, etc.) which probably means it has something to do with our current nihilistic, narcissistic culture.

I thought Mormons were supposed to uphold and follow their apostles’ teachings? Elder Renlund is in the Quorom of the Twelve, correct? Do you not support him as you do the prophet?

World is changing man . . .the Church today is all over the map in some of their teachings-this being the latest example. The Church (IMO) is being torn apart at the seems. There is a significant portion of Church membership who are extremely liberal and there is the old conservative portion of the Church. It'll survive, but what it looks like at the end of this internal Church cultural war will be interesting.

If I took a poll all the wards I've lived in whether suicide is a sin, I guarantee you I'd find at LEAST 80% would say, "duh, of course". The Church as an organization has admitted that it can be 100% dead-wrong-see the Essays.

So if the organization itself says they can be dead-wrong, and that Prophets and Apostles in the past were dead-wrong, it logically stands to reason they can be dead-wrong today. How to determine if they are wrong? Well that is where studying the scriptures and then using the Holy Ghost comes into play.

No, I do not feel the Spirit of God when someone tells me suicide is not sin and it doesn't match with the revealed Word of God from Scriptures-therefore I judge it to be incorrect.

Just b/c a man is a member of the Q12 does not make them perfect, nor does it mean every utterance is the Word of God. Apostles have been excommunicated from the Church-several of them have. I sustain the Q12 . . . but I actually listen more to their messages and in their messages looking for the Holy Ghost to confirm their calling to me. So it's different . . .I default to sustaining b/c I have no reason not to sustain. But then in addition to me sustaining them, I look for a Spiritual confirmation of their divine calling.

Some I have a firm witness of their Divine calling as a 12 and others I don't. I have a witness of Nelson as President and Prophet. Some I do, some I don't-it just depends. I also do tend to give them slack (even if I severely disagree with their message)-they are learning in their calling just as much as anyone learns in their calling and that generally takes time. Personally I don't really have a witness of any of the most recent ones-but I'm sure given enough time it will come.

So for Elder Renlund, I'll sustain him, but I can't really say that I have a witness . . .yet. This message to me does not speak Truth or the Word of God (I'm referring specifically to "it's not a sin"), but there are certainly portions of the message that do.

[Red]

I'm glad I believe it's not a sin.

-Finrock

I’m glad I believe in the Lord’s mercy.

[mgridle1]

I'm glad I believe it's not a sin.

-Finrock

I’m glad I believe in the Lord’s mercy.

No sin means no mercy.

[Red]

Elder Renlund is wrong. Killing oneself is a sin, although state of mind/heart will be taken into account with the Lord. If the Apostles have received revelation contradicting past pronouncements over the General Conference pulpit that suicide is a sin, they should be very clear that they were wrong in the past. But, they will never say that. They are caving to secular humanism. Everyone needs to feel good.

You say Renlund is wrong. I am curious, if he’s wrong, why hasn’t the Prophet come out and said that Renlund is wrong?

[Red]

You aren't missing anything, it's just more of an indication of how extremely soft the Church has become, b/c nowadays it's all about making sure everyone "feels good", heaven forbid anyone felt guilt that would spur them to change their behavior. Can't say the hard truths b/c that would be "unkind, bigoted, intolerant, etc."

OK.
I know that just really no one is objective about their own children or other family members. That's why as soon as one of their own comes out gay, somehow gay marraige and everything rainbow is wonderful and the Pride Parade suddenly becomes The Greatest Show on Earth. If you and I get objective about them, theyare all but ready to crucify you. I am not anymore objective about my kids, than anyone else, either, but I ADMIT IT.

So when you have a death by suicide of one of your children, no matter what kind of monster he/she was before or how much grief he caused, after death by suicide he is now an angel in heaven or in the spirit world fulfilling the mission God has called him to. You just have to accept the fact that after death, the parents, etc, are going to be nearly irrational about the loved one in the casket. And I understand this part of it. as the finality of death is something I don't believe anyone is adequately prepared for. IT SHOULD STAND TO REASON, that in the case of suicide, the ward shouldn't be treating the family like lepers or something, hold back on giving all the support they can, and go around talking behind the families back about how their loved is in hell. Heck yeah, if church members are doing this, thens someone should just hit them over the head with an ax or something.

I see this kind of thing Elder Renlund is doing here all the time, and I just don't get it. If someone else does, please let me in on the secret here. What I mean is the church tells you a good thing to do, like being kind and supportive to the family of a suicide victim, so don't necessarily jump to conclusions, etc OK. Great. I can see this is being christian, humane and bearing the burdens of others. But the foundation that is given for this good behaviour is nonsense. Elder Renlund has no idea what the outcome of suicide is anymore than I do, but nevertheless goes around freely filling in the blanks with nothing but his imagination, however reassuring his personal dreamworld happens to be.

I personally prefer the truth. No matter how cold, difficult, fearful, and inconvenient, I WANT THE TRUTH! Doesn't anybody else?

Since it isn't provable, what's the benefit of believing that the person who committed suicide is going to hell or they committed a grievous sin?

-Finrock

That's what I mean Finrock. No one really knows the outcome here, so I wish Elder Renlund, for example, would just admit that, rather than filling in the blanks with fairy tale fluff. There are a lot of things we don't know about death and judgement, etc and this leaves us all in a state of uncertainty. I believe that the ability to live with uncertainty is essential to cultivating maturity and a huge part of living by faith. The church has come out and recently stated that there are things they don't know and only God knows the reasons for. I am totally with talking like this. If you don't know, just say so. All these fairy tale theories may feel all wonderful right now, but in the end will let you down.

And the sin part of this to me is being glossed over. Even if you don't believe it is on paar with murder, and for arguments sake, let's say it isn't, stilll, when someone commits suicide, the family left behind have had a real number done on them by it and can be scarred for life. That can't be just a " and the guy who committed suicide went on to the spirit world a hero and lived happily ever after" scenario while those who are left behind are completely traumatized doesn't quite cut it.

If I am wrong I am wrong, but suicide should NEVER be glamourized, made out to be a progessive step, or look as if it has no unintended consequences.

You made an assumption that it’s fairy tale fluff. You don’t know that it’s fluff. You said yourself no one knows the outcome, that includes you. If it’s revelation/guidance and you’re refusing to embrace the prophet/apostles... well, I suppose there are a lot of outcomes to that choice as well. It sounded to me like Elder Renlund is showing everyone the exact love and mercy our Savior would show us. It’s hard enough to feel suicidal without being shamed for our feelings. Im very grateful to hear that our leaders have the same mercy the Lord has for us.

[Red]

Right, except few people ever consider that what they are saying currently is wrong.

Might be true. Not sure what that means in context though...

If they were wrong in the past, why can't they be wrong today?

Sure, hence, I'm glad that I believe suicide is not a sin.

-Finrock

That's fine, but hence my other point that there is way, way to much division in the Church and it will continue to grow and grow and grow. Why? B/c the Church today is putting out contradictory statements vs. what it put out 10-15 years ago . . .with NO accompanying new revelations. The Church's teaching are dramatically changing with no real scriptural or relevatory evidence to back up the dramatic change.

I guarantee you, do a poll on current members of the Church whether they think suicide is a sin and I bet it would come in at least 70-30, maybe 80-20 yes suicide is a sin.

It took a long time for the church members to finally abandon polygamy too, so...

[mgridle1]

Right, except few people ever consider that what they are saying currently is wrong.

Might be true. Not sure what that means in context though...

If they were wrong in the past, why can't they be wrong today?

Sure, hence, I'm glad that I believe suicide is not a sin.

-Finrock

That's fine, but hence my other point that there is way, way to much division in the Church and it will continue to grow and grow and grow. Why? B/c the Church today is putting out contradictory statements vs. what it put out 10-15 years ago . . .with NO accompanying new revelations. The Church's teaching are dramatically changing with no real scriptural or relevatory evidence to back up the dramatic change.

I guarantee you, do a poll on current members of the Church whether they think suicide is a sin and I bet it would come in at least 70-30, maybe 80-20 yes suicide is a sin.

It took a long time for the church members to finally abandon polygamy too, so...

No it didn't. 1890 to 1910, 20 years max . . .that's not a long time.

[Red]

It's amazing, the Church is wrong on this issue just like they are wrong on saying identifying as a homosexual is not a sin.

If identifying as a homosexual is not a sin, then it means identifying as a pedaphile is not a sin.
If suicide is not a sin and it's my life to take, then it means that it's my life to ask someone to help me take my own life and it's not a sin.

Actually the church is in the business of temporal and spiritual salvation, they cannot label a man or woman as a sinner if they never act on it. God will deal with our hearts at final judgement.

Homosexuality is a sin and the church believes it is a sin and they treat it as a sin. If a person is inclined to be homosexual but remains clean and pure physically, how have they sinned in the eyes of the church? They havent. There is a difference between church discipline and judgement by God at the final day.

I always giggle at the “loophole” the church takes on this one. They always say that sexual contact outside of marriage is inappropriate, therefore skirting the issue of whether or not identifying as gay is a sin... because you’re not supposed to engage in sexual activity outside of marriage anyway, whether straight or gay. It’s clever.

[Red]

I believe the circumstances vary when it comes to suicide. It does harm others, but it is not taking THEIR lives, it's hurting them indirectly (sometimes in some ways directly - like a provider abandoning his family, for example). In short, it is YOUR life to take.

No, it's not your life to take. That is a very selfish, humanistic way of looking at the world and God certainly doesn't enter into the picture when one proclaims it is your life to take.

1 Corinthians 6:19-20
"What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For we are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God's."

Romans 14:7-9
"For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. For whether we live, we live unto the Lord, and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefor, or die, we are the Lords. For to this end Christ both died and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the living and the dead."

I am reminded here that our bodies are temples, and not ours to dispose of as we wish. With all the stuff about tattoos, body modifications, body jewelry, abuse of the body with drugs, alcohol, and tobacco and this being considered a sin, and the way you get excommunicated for abortion, and I could go on and on here, it seems extraordinary that destroying our own body to the point of no return would not be a sin at all.

If I am wrong and simply don't understand Elder Renlund here, I stand corrected. I just wish somebody could correct me, but so far that's not happening.

So your story from the radio show was good. Wow. What a good moral tale. I know of two cases like this. One case a friend of mine had her 17 year old son die in a car accident that he caused. He was very reckless and thrill seeking guy who always pushed the edge. He broke a lot of bones and spent too much time in the emergency room. But he didn't have his passions under control and would not stop. At his funeral all this was treated like, "Wasn't he just a spunky boy, just too daring for this world!" It just so happened though, that he died while driving on the freeway in a snowstorm where visability was down and everyone was going 30 miles an hour. He decided it would be fun to go faster and faster in these extreme weather conditions, and made it up to 75 miles an hour before hitting into a SUV. He died alright, and he took with him a mother and two of her youngest children and put his friend next to him in very critical condition. Nevertheless, the bishop just said that is was just this young boys' time to go and he had been called on a mission to the other side and at this very moment was teaching the gospel in the spirit world."

I know, what else can you say without causing the parents to have a nervous breakdown? You don't want to make things worse, do you? But what about the people he took with him? And his friend who was on life support?

Lol, you would never let someone correct you anyway.

[Red]

Suicide, and life in general, may not be as serious as some think. If MMP is true, then it certainly isn't. Maybe these souls needed a longer resting period before coming down to face physical life's challenges again. We don't really know. Just a bunch of quotes and opinions, claiming to be God's view. Death isn't the end, in any case. Why do we humans feel the need to have a pat judgment ready for every event? We don't know, so why do we care to form a solid position on the uncertain/unknown?

I think that for some folks, the reason that they have to have a solid position on the unknown and then judge others for not believing that position is because deep down inside they’re terrified to be wrong. They are terrified of admitting they don’t know. They’re terrified of not having a set plan in stone. They’re terrified of what they perceive to be an unsteady structure to life. They’re terrified of the unknown so they judge it, they fix it, then they become the loudest voice in the room in order to drown out the quiet whispering that it’s ok not to know. It’s ok to have faith in personal revelation. Its ok to admit that your belief was wrong. It’s ok to trust that you may not know how it ends, but the Lord will never abandon you. It will all be ok. Faith is terrifying. That’s why it’s so hard to maintain.

[Red]

I'm glad I believe it's not a sin.

-Finrock

I’m glad I believe in the Lord’s mercy.

No sin means no mercy.

Well... I wasn’t going to clarify, but I respect Finrock so I think I’d like to clarify anyway. I’m not sure if it’s a sin so much as it is a moment in time when the Lord cries for those who commit suicide. He doesn’t punish us for doing it. He loves us. So, no punishment, not a sin?

[Red]

Might be true. Not sure what that means in context though...



Sure, hence, I'm glad that I believe suicide is not a sin.

-Finrock

That's fine, but hence my other point that there is way, way to much division in the Church and it will continue to grow and grow and grow. Why? B/c the Church today is putting out contradictory statements vs. what it put out 10-15 years ago . . .with NO accompanying new revelations. The Church's teaching are dramatically changing with no real scriptural or relevatory evidence to back up the dramatic change.

I guarantee you, do a poll on current members of the Church whether they think suicide is a sin and I bet it would come in at least 70-30, maybe 80-20 yes suicide is a sin.

It took a long time for the church members to finally abandon polygamy too, so...

No it didn't. 1890 to 1910, 20 years max . . .that's not a long time.

Perhaps in 20 years time from Renlunds speech the saints will no longer believe suicide is a sin.

[Red]

I love my children dearly, as most parents do. I would be devastated if any of them committed suicide. When I saw them in the next life I would cry tears of joy and tell them how much I missed them. I would hug them. So would the Lord. I wouldn’t slap them in the face as punshisment, and neither would the Lord. I would tell them how sorry I am that the life they had was too much to bear. So would the Lord.

I am made in the form and character of my Father in Heaven. If I am made after Him, then all of the goodness that I am is an extension of Him. If God is only good, then He can only BE good. I am flawed and I would never punish my children for being suicidal. The Lord is not flawed and he wouldn’t punish anyone for being suicidal either. I love my kids so much that I wouldn’t punish them for their struggles. I could only love them. I’m certain the Lord is the same. That is mercy. It is only through love that people make true and lasting change. The Lord’s Love is much greater than my own.

[mgridle1]

I love my children dearly, as most parents do. I would be devastated if any of them committed suicide. When I saw them in the next life I would cry tears of joy and tell them how much I missed them. I would hug them. So would the Lord. I wouldn’t slap them in the face as punshisment, and neither would the Lord. I would tell them how sorry I am that the life they had was too much to bear. So would the Lord.

I am made in the form and character of my Father in Heaven. If I am made after Him, then all of the goodness that I am is an extension of Him. If God is only good, then He can only BE good. I am flawed and I would never punish my children for being suicidal. The Lord is not flawed and he wouldn’t punish anyone for being suicidal either. I love my kids so much that I wouldn’t punish them for their struggles. I could only love them. I’m certain the Lord is the same. That is mercy. It is only through love that people make true and lasting change. The Lord’s Love is much greater than my own.

It really is amazing to me how many people absolutely do not read their scriptures. They make God in their own image rather than being made in His image.

You are making God in your own image.

It is very simple. There is no mercy without sin. Your idea of who God is and what He thinks is totally and completely flawed. With your thinking, there is no need for a Savior and thus no need for Christ. I have no idea what God thinks in general-but I do have a good understanding of the scriptures (or at least I try to) and that is where I go to find out what God thinks/believes/feels and the scriptures do not comport to your claim.

I mean this in no way denigrating you, but your idea is anti-Christ-we don't need Christ with your thinking and thus it is false and not of God.