Elder Renlund on Suicide

[Joel]

The Latter-day Saint leader says the “old sectarian notion that suicide is a sin and that someone who commits suicide is banished to hell forever” is “totally false.”

More here: http://www.ldsliving.com/-That-Suicide- ... de/s/88822

[simpleton]

The Latter-day Saint leader says the “old sectarian notion that suicide is a sin and that someone who commits suicide is banished to hell forever” is “totally false.”

More here: http://www.ldsliving.com/-That-Suicide- ... de/s/88822

Just take out the word "forever"..... but it is a sin like unto murder.... but we need to make the relatives feel better.... kind of like if you pay the Catholic bishop enough money even a mafia kingpin can make it into heaven...

[drtanner]

Those who do not understand what Elder Renlund is trying to communicate do not understand what hell is:

In latter-day revelation hell is spoken of in at least two senses. One is the temporary abode in the spirit world of those who were disobedient in this mortal life. It is between death and the Resurrection, and persons who receive the telestial glory will abide there until the last resurrection (D&C 76:84–85, 106), at which time they will go to the telestial glory. In this sense the Book of Mormon speaks of spiritual death as hell (2 Ne. 9:10–12). Hell, as thus defined, will have an end, when all the captive spirits have paid the price of their sins and enter into a degree of glory after their resurrection. Statements about an everlasting hell (Hel. 6:28; Moro. 8:13) must be interpreted in their proper context in the light of D&C 19:4–12, which defines eternal and endless punishment.

On the other hand, the devil and his angels, including the sons of perdition, are assigned to a place spoken of as a lake of fire—a figure of eternal anguish. This condition is sometimes called hell in the scriptures (2 Pet. 2:4; D&C 29:38; 88:113). This kind of hell, which is after the Resurrection and Judgment, is exclusively for the devil and his angels and is not the same as that consisting only of the period between death and resurrection. The one group are redeemed from hell and inherit some degree of glory. The other receive no glory. They continue in spiritual darkness. For them the conditions of hell remain.

The general sectarian view of hell is the latter and IS totally false when it comes to suicide. I would also add the following from Elder Maxwell for understanding:

“For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts” (D&C 137:8–9).

God thus takes into merciful account not only our desires and our performance, but also the degrees of difficulty which our varied circumstances impose upon us. No wonder we will not complain at the final judgment, especially since even the telestial kingdom’s glory “surpasses all understanding” (D&C 76:89). God delights in blessing us, especially when we realize “joy in that which [we] have desired”

and to further elaborate Elder Bruce C. Hafen quoting Elder Maxwell:

Elder Maxwell once taught a group of people who lived with really hard daily challenges. He had been watching the Olympic diving competition, where he had learned that the judges grade a dive not just by how graceful it looks to the public, but by how difficult the dive is—which only the judges can understand enough to measure. Elder Maxwell told this group that the Lord will judge their lives by the difficulty of their dive, which He understands in every detail.

Open your eyes and hearts to what is really being taught here and lets not make this something it is not.

[Robin Hood]

Suicide is a sin.
I think most suicides are not in their right mind when they do it, but the act itself (taking a human life) is a sin.
Also, I think Elder Renlund is mistaken to call the common doctrine around suicide "sectarian". It's a Catholic doctrine.

[Juliet]

The problem with suicide is that it isn't gaurdian angels tempting you to do it. Honestly that is what has protected me many times, knowing those feelings are coming from my future demon friends if I follow through on them. Of course God can reach you where ever you are at. But the spirits we hang out with while alive are going to be who we want to hang out with when we die.

There is a lot friends and family can do though to help someone who has committed suicide to forgive themselves and move into the light and unconditional love. It is too bad they can't find that while alive but it makes sense because our culture is out of balance and spends more energy on paying taxes then enjoying each other and celebrating each other's company.

[mgridle1]

Suicide is a sin.
I think most suicides are not in their right mind when they do it, but the act itself (taking a human life) is a sin.
Also, I think Elder Renlund is mistaken to call the common doctrine around suicide "sectarian". It's a Catholic doctrine.

On the part "old sectarian notion that suicide is a sin", I'm not sure what he is referring to but it sure seems like the Gospel of Christ is being watered down a lot these days and many things that were previously sins are no now longer "sins", without the membership of the Church even ratifying any new revelations.

The things the Church taught just 10-15 years ago are now passe, old, and "sectarian".

And this quote "I believe the vast majority of cases will find that these individuals have lived heroic lives and that that suicide will not be a defining characteristic of their eternities"

Excuse me . . . "lived heroic lives" what kind of absolute blather is this. An individual killed themselves, they committed murder against themselves, yet they "lived heroic lives", give me a break.

and this from Princess (what a name . . .)
"To call someone who is attempting suicide selfish is really not OK because there are other things that they are struggling with"

umm, yeah that is the definition of selfishness. "there are other things that they are struggling with", so that means the person who commits suicide is so preoccupied with their own problems, their own interests, their own misery that they can't see what horrible effect their ending their life will have on others. I think that's pretty much the exact definition of selfish.

It is disgusting . . .no where in ANY of these press releases was Jesus Christ mentioned . . .AT ALL!!! We claim we are His Church, yet an Apostle of His in answer to a very vexing problem couldn't manage (or at least in the press release) couldn't manage to invoke His name, His Atonement or even a scripture?

Seriously? What a travesty.

No, it seems rather than relying on God's word and on Christ's word I'm hearing more and more humanistic platitudes from the top. Platitudes that I can FIND ANYWHERE! I can find these same platitudes with counselors, mental health professions, psychologists, etc.

So if I can find these platitudes found in most places, praytell what exact ADDED value does a Church provide? B/c obviously Christ isn't much of the center anymore . . . .

And they completely ignore that suicide is mainly a 1st-world problem. Suicides do happen across the world, but it is highly correlated with 1st-world status (the same with depression, anxiety, etc.) which probably means it has something to do with our current nihilistic, narcissistic culture.

[passionflower]

I can understand why Elder Renlund would admonish us to "mourn with those that mourn" , especially in a case of suicide. The family will be distraught and completely beside themselves, and truly the stigma about suicide can be a very heavy cross to bear on top of that. But I wish he had said only this and stopped there.

But to talk as if it is a death on paar with any other, and like God is on board with it ( if it isn't a sin, it must be His will ) is going too far the other way, for me. If what he says is the rock bottom truth, then what's all the fuss about euthanasia or assisted suicide? Hari Kari ( is that how you spell it ?) instead of being stamped out like it was, should be seen for the noble thing the Japanese believed it to be, and what could possibly be wrong with widows in India throwing themselves on their husbands' funeral pyres. And why feel so badly if gay guys are shooting themselves on church lawns? It's nothing really!

In an effort to help, you can end up hurting. We already have an epidemic of suicide in the church. So much so that there is an LDS hotline just for those contemplating it. Now Elder Renlund could very well be giving any teenager the church approved go ahead. He makes it sound as if life will be so good after you commit suicide, your eternal destiny has not been altered, and the drama of their suicide will be increased as now they are "heros", and everything will be OK and all their problems will indeed be solved if they kill themselves.

With friends like this, who needs enemies?
I hope someone can point out where I am missing the point here, because if I was a mother of a troubled teenager who has attempted suicide in the past, I could be really upset at this.

[David13]

Suicide is a very problematic sin.
In order to be forgiven for your sins, you must repent, atone, and pledge to never sin again, sort of, as I understand it.

That can't be done when one is dead.

Now, that brings me to an issue of Gospel Principles. Can one repent in the hereafter, or must it be done here.

It would appear that the Mormon or LDS doctrine is that it can be done in the hereafter. But that it is exceedingly more difficult to do so there, rather than here.

And we all know of those here with their sins who would never even consider repentance here, or more so, those who insist their sins are not sins.

You know, they call many a prison a "correctional institution". Do they ever "correct" anyone?

I have always maintained that basically they do not. And I think the statistics for recidivism are very high.

I had always remarked that there are just some people who are thoroughly evil through and through. That even if they were to receive the death penalty that they would not only not be corrected, but would happily go about their evil and crimes in the hereafter.

I think that is the case.
dc

[mgridle1]

I hope someone can point out where I am missing the point here, because if I was a mother of a troubled teenager who has attempted suicide in the past, I could be really upset at this.

You aren't missing anything, it's just more of an indication of how extremely soft the Church has become, b/c nowadays it's all about making sure everyone "feels good", heaven forbid anyone felt guilt that would spur them to change their behavior. Can't say the hard truths b/c that would be "unkind, bigoted, intolerant, etc."

[mgridle1]

Suicide is a very problematic sin.

Yeah, except if I read Elder Renlund properly, suicide isn't a sin so there is nothing to repent of.

[David13]

Suicide is a very problematic sin.

Yeah, except if I read Elder Renlund properly, suicide isn't a sin so there is nothing to repent of.

Yeah, if you agree that it's not a sin. I don't. I think he is wrong. You might check and see that I am not alone in that belief, even in this thread.
dc

[Finrock]

I'm glad I believe it's not a sin.

-Finrock

[mgridle1]

Suicide is a very problematic sin.

Yeah, except if I read Elder Renlund properly, suicide isn't a sin so there is nothing to repent of.

Yeah, if you agree that it's not a sin. I don't. I think he is wrong. You might check and see that I am not alone in that belief, even in this thread.
dc

Be careful now, someone might just come along and accuse you of not being a faithful member of the Church b/c you don't agree with every word spoken by leadership or by the Church.

I pretty much agree with:
https://www.lds.org/topics/suicide?lang=eng

It seems that the Church does not necessarily have a unified message at the top-which leads to either confusion, division, or more importantly discerning the truth by the Spirit of God.

"Although it is wrong to take one’s own life, a person who does so may not be responsible for his or her actions."
Is different than saying suicide is not a sin. I completely agree with the 2nd half of Elder Renlund's statement-only the Lord at Judgement day will know who is confined to a lesser degree of glory than the Celestial glory-that's not for us to decide. But we can say it is a sin.

"To commit sin is to willfully disobey God’s commandments or to fail to act righteously despite a knowledge of the truth"

https://www.lds.org/topics/sin?lang=eng

So for those who have been taught (and we should teach it) that suicide is disobeying God's commandments-it is sin. To say it is not sin means it's not disobeying God's commandments????

[mgridle1]

I'm glad I believe it's not a sin.

-Finrock

So euthanasia is good to go in your book?

[Finrock]

I'm glad I believe it's not a sin.

-Finrock

So euthanasia is good to go in your book?

Is that what we were talking about?

-Finrock

[mgridle1]

I'm glad I believe it's not a sin.

-Finrock

So euthanasia is good to go in your book?

Is that what we were talking about?

-Finrock

Yes it is actually. If suicide is not a sin, then is doctor assisted-suicide a sin?

[Finrock]

I'm glad I believe it's not a sin.

-Finrock

So euthanasia is good to go in your book?

Is that what we were talking about?

-Finrock

Yes it is actually. If suicide is not a sin, then is doctor assisted-suicide a sin?

Oh, I thought the subject matter was suicide. Yep, I just checked. Elder Renlund says suicide is not a sin.

I'm glad I believe suicide is not a sin.

-Finrock

[mgridle1]

So euthanasia is good to go in your book?

Is that what we were talking about?

-Finrock

Yes it is actually. If suicide is not a sin, then is doctor assisted-suicide a sin?

Oh, I thought the subject matter was suicide. Yep, I just checked. Elder Renlund says suicide is not a sin.

I'm glad I believe suicide is not a sin.

-Finrock

Way to avoid the question, so doctor assisted suicide is not a sin in your book. Glad to know where you stand.

B/c the two are linked together, you can't say suicide is not a sin and then say helping someone commit suicide is a sin. Massive cognitive dissonance. But, that's cool have fun reconciling the two!

[Lizzy60]

Elder Renlund is wrong. Killing oneself is a sin, although state of mind/heart will be taken into account with the Lord. If the Apostles have received revelation contradicting past pronouncements over the General Conference pulpit that suicide is a sin, they should be very clear that they were wrong in the past. But, they will never say that. They are caving to secular humanism. Everyone needs to feel good.

[Finrock]

Is that what we were talking about?

-Finrock

Yes it is actually. If suicide is not a sin, then is doctor assisted-suicide a sin?

Oh, I thought the subject matter was suicide. Yep, I just checked. Elder Renlund says suicide is not a sin.

I'm glad I believe suicide is not a sin.

-Finrock

Way to avoid the question, so doctor assisted suicide is not a sin in your book. Glad to know where you stand.

B/c the two are linked together, you can't say suicide is not a sin and then say helping someone commit suicide is a sin. Massive cognitive dissonance. But, that's cool have fun reconciling the two!

What do you mean, "avoid the question?" Are you OK? You seem super combative. The question was about suicide. Now you start implying something completely different from what I stated. Its weird. I'm talking about suicide. The question is suicide. Why don't you start a thread about the question of those who assist others to commit suicide? Or, do you think that there is some rational/logical link between believing that those who commit suicide are not going to hell somehow speaks to those who help others die? If that is what you think, that's silly.

-Finrock

[passionflower]

I hope someone can point out where I am missing the point here, because if I was a mother of a troubled teenager who has attempted suicide in the past, I could be really upset at this.

You aren't missing anything, it's just more of an indication of how extremely soft the Church has become, b/c nowadays it's all about making sure everyone "feels good", heaven forbid anyone felt guilt that would spur them to change their behavior. Can't say the hard truths b/c that would be "unkind, bigoted, intolerant, etc."

OK.
I know that just really no one is objective about their own children or other family members. That's why as soon as one of their own comes out gay, somehow gay marraige and everything rainbow is wonderful and the Pride Parade suddenly becomes The Greatest Show on Earth. If you and I get objective about them, theyare all but ready to crucify you. I am not anymore objective about my kids, than anyone else, either, but I ADMIT IT.

So when you have a death by suicide of one of your children, no matter what kind of monster he/she was before or how much grief he caused, after death by suicide he is now an angel in heaven or in the spirit world fulfilling the mission God has called him to. You just have to accept the fact that after death, the parents, etc, are going to be nearly irrational about the loved one in the casket. And I understand this part of it. as the finality of death is something I don't believe anyone is adequately prepared for. IT SHOULD STAND TO REASON, that in the case of suicide, the ward shouldn't be treating the family like lepers or something, hold back on giving all the support they can, and go around talking behind the families back about how their loved is in hell. Heck yeah, if church members are doing this, thens someone should just hit them over the head with an ax or something.

I see this kind of thing Elder Renlund is doing here all the time, and I just don't get it. If someone else does, please let me in on the secret here. What I mean is the church tells you a good thing to do, like being kind and supportive to the family of a suicide victim, so don't necessarily jump to conclusions, etc OK. Great. I can see this is being christian, humane and bearing the burdens of others. But the foundation that is given for this good behaviour is nonsense. Elder Renlund has no idea what the outcome of suicide is anymore than I do, but nevertheless goes around freely filling in the blanks with nothing but his imagination, however reassuring his personal dreamworld happens to be.

I personally prefer the truth. No matter how cold, difficult, fearful, and inconvenient, I WANT THE TRUTH! Doesn't anybody else?

[Finrock]

I hope someone can point out where I am missing the point here, because if I was a mother of a troubled teenager who has attempted suicide in the past, I could be really upset at this.

You aren't missing anything, it's just more of an indication of how extremely soft the Church has become, b/c nowadays it's all about making sure everyone "feels good", heaven forbid anyone felt guilt that would spur them to change their behavior. Can't say the hard truths b/c that would be "unkind, bigoted, intolerant, etc."

OK.
I know that just really no one is objective about their own children or other family members. That's why as soon as one of their own comes out gay, somehow gay marraige and everything rainbow is wonderful and the Pride Parade suddenly becomes The Greatest Show on Earth. If you and I get objective about them, theyare all but ready to crucify you. I am not anymore objective about my kids, than anyone else, either, but I ADMIT IT.

So when you have a death by suicide of one of your children, no matter what kind of monster he/she was before or how much grief he caused, after death by suicide he is now an angel in heaven or in the spirit world fulfilling the mission God has called him to. You just have to accept the fact that after death, the parents, etc, are going to be nearly irrational about the loved one in the casket. And I understand this part of it. as the finality of death is something I don't believe anyone is adequately prepared for. IT SHOULD STAND TO REASON, that in the case of suicide, the ward shouldn't be treating the family like lepers or something, hold back on giving all the support they can, and go around talking behind the families back about how their loved is in hell. Heck yeah, if church members are doing this, thens someone should just hit them over the head with an ax or something.

I see this kind of thing Elder Renlund is doing here all the time, and I just don't get it. If someone else does, please let me in on the secret here. What I mean is the church tells you a good thing to do, like being kind and supportive to the family of a suicide victim, so don't necessarily jump to conclusions, etc OK. Great. I can see this is being christian, humane and bearing the burdens of others. But the foundation that is given for this good behaviour is nonsense. Elder Renlund has no idea what the outcome of suicide is anymore than I do, but nevertheless goes around freely filling in the blanks with nothing but his imagination, however reassuring his personal dreamworld happens to be.

I personally prefer the truth. No matter how cold, difficult, fearful, and inconvenient, I WANT THE TRUTH! Doesn't anybody else?

Since it isn't provable, what's the benefit of believing that the person who committed suicide is going to hell or they committed a grievous sin?

-Finrock

[Lizzy60]

Since it isn't provable, why are the leaders saying gay marriage is wrong?

[Jesef]

The Leaders/Brethren would be completely honest if they just said "we don't know" or "we don't know, but we know God knows & is merciful and kind" or something similar. Same with gay people. Stop judging, stop condemning - when we really don't know and don't have all the answers.

[mgridle1]

Yes it is actually. If suicide is not a sin, then is doctor assisted-suicide a sin?

Oh, I thought the subject matter was suicide. Yep, I just checked. Elder Renlund says suicide is not a sin.

I'm glad I believe suicide is not a sin.

-Finrock

Way to avoid the question, so doctor assisted suicide is not a sin in your book. Glad to know where you stand.

B/c the two are linked together, you can't say suicide is not a sin and then say helping someone commit suicide is a sin. Massive cognitive dissonance. But, that's cool have fun reconciling the two!

What do you mean, "avoid the question?" Are you OK? You seem super combative. The question was about suicide. Now you start implying something completely different from what I stated. Its weird. I'm talking about suicide. The question is suicide. Why don't you start a thread about the question of those who assist others to commit suicide? Or, do you think that there is some rational/logical link between believing that those who commit suicide are not going to hell somehow speaks to those who help others die? If that is what you think, that's silly.

-Finrock

I'm not super combative; I'm just extending the logical conclusion of what you are stating.

Suicide is not sin, therefore if it is not sin (i.e. not against the commandments of God) then how can helping on commit suicide be against the commandments of God.

How can the person assisting in suicide commit sin if the actual act they are assisting in is not sin?
How about if the person who is committing suicide begs and wants another person to help them commit suicide?

Suicide is not sin (it's not against God's laws), so why is it even bad?
Suicide is not sin so what about the person who desperately wants to end their life but can't, then involve someone else yet the other person involved has sinned?

If it's not sin, then it's just a lifestyle choice that one makes, no better no worse than whether I decide to go to school, eat eggs for breakfast or eat ham. Because if it's not against God's law and commandments, then why is it "wrong". How can it be "wrong" when it's not against the ultimate arbitrator of our lives-God laws.

See so many twists and turns and justifications and it just becomes a jumbled mess-these are the logical conclusions of labeling suicide not a sin.