LDS Freedom Forum

Thinker wrote: ↑July 1st, 2018, 7:43 pm

captainfearnot wrote: ↑July 1st, 2018, 7:39 pm

Thinker wrote: ↑July 1st, 2018, 6:30 pm Joseph Smith wrote D&C. Sometimes he was prophetically inspired and sometimes obviously not. Ie: Preaching for slavery (D&C 134:12) and God supposedly demanding wife to perform or ELSE (D&C 132:54,56,64) were Joseph talking, not God nor Christ.

Again, Christ’s quotes during his life in the NT repeatedly teach that as Christians, our highest priorities should involve helping those in need. So any preaching about using Jesus Christ’s name to build up a corporate empire and denying tithes to the poor, are using Christ’s name in vain and is contrary to what Christ taught.

How do you know which teachings of the New Testament were just Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, or Paul talking, and not Christ?

Both books are written by men giving accounts of what they saw and heard regarding the Savior. Jesus himself did not write either one.

That’s right!
And if you look at the history of biblical canon and even lds scripture- you see how it’s been changed. And it’s good to keep in mind nobody’s perfect - not even scripture authors.

So, what I try to do is become as Christlike as I can by exploring “the kingdom of God within” - studying, thinking and praying to see clearly what is of God and what is not. I’m not trying to reinvent the wheel - I learn from others - but I also use the brain God gave me along with the spirit.

Just where does the idea that the kingdom of God is within come from?

SmallFarm wrote: ↑July 1st, 2018, 4:30 pm What is the purpose in the Lord telling us that we shouldn't "do our alms before men"? Does that purpose also apply to the Lord and what He does with His church?

I remember the Savior frequently telling those he healed to "tell it unto no man."

righteousrepublic wrote: ↑July 1st, 2018, 8:26 pm

Thinker wrote: ↑July 1st, 2018, 6:30 pm

shadow wrote: ↑July 1st, 2018, 1:47 pm

Thinker wrote: ↑July 1st, 2018, 11:41 am Jesus didn’t teach tithing...

He did, actually, and he even tells the church in the D&C what tithing is to be used for.

Joseph Smith wrote D&C. Sometimes he was prophetically inspired and sometimes obviously not. Ie: Preaching for slavery (D&C 134:12) and God supposedly demanding wife to perform or ELSE (D&C 132:54,56,64) were Joseph talking, not God nor Christ.

Again, Christ’s quotes during his life in the NT repeatedly teach that as Christians, our highest priorities should involve helping those in need. So any preaching about using Jesus Christ’s name to build up a corporate empire and denying tithes to the poor, are using Christ’s name in vain and is contrary to what Christ taught.

If I understand correctly, you're not even a member...so why is it such a concern for you? Walk a mile is people's shoes before making judgements on things you don't actually experience.

This church is Christ's church, he even states so. If there are things that don't meet your approval, join the church and then weigh all things out. This is what I hear David13 did. I applaud him.
This church still has all the saving ordinances needed to gain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God. And members can have hope for a better by adhering to God's laws and not paying attention to the gripes of other people that have no clue of what its like to have such a hope.

Please read the following and ponder it.

ETHER 12:4
4 Wherefore, whoso believeth in God might with surety hope for a better world, yea, even a place at the right hand of God, which hope cometh of faith, maketh an anchor to the souls of men, which would make them sure and steadfast, always abounding in good works, being led to glorify God.

So how do we gain hope?
How does hope become an anchor to our soul?
How does hope, as an anchor, keep us on the path, being sure and steadfast?
What is faith?
What is hope?
How does hope and faith, together, effect the lives of those truly seeking eternal life?

It would be good if you heeded your own advice.
You have made incorrect assumptions about me and judged me on them.
I was blessed as a baby into the church - grew up going to church every Sunday and still go and serve in callings. We have family home evening each Monday. I have kept a journal since I could write & I have helped my kids keep journals since they were babies (I wrote for them until they could). I also have a sort of “book of remembrance” for each. I was married in the temple. I’ve done genealogy work and through it, I have met several descendants- relatively close relatives I’d never met before. We occasionally serve as a family and try to lead by example to treat all with kindness, though we’re not perfect. We pray as a family regularly and I pray often daily. I have read and studied all scriptures cover-to cover.

In some people’s eyes, I could be Christlike in many ways, but if I didn’t agree to claiming church leaders are infallible, I am no good. But I know better. I care more what God thinks of me than what people think. I know that it is wrong to withhold tithes from the poor and I cannot in good conscious support the leaders’ handling of finances. That is clearly immoral and not of God.

Hope based on lies is building on sand and will inevitably fall. Hope must be based on truth - or at the very least not denying truth but rather being open to learning. To me, hope is the 1st step - like toward belief. Faith is more active - it’s going out on a limb trusting in God, learning through trial and error - not being luke warm.

righteousrepublic wrote: ↑July 1st, 2018, 8:33 pm

Thinker wrote: ↑July 1st, 2018, 7:43 pm

captainfearnot wrote: ↑July 1st, 2018, 7:39 pm

Thinker wrote: ↑July 1st, 2018, 6:30 pm Joseph Smith wrote D&C. Sometimes he was prophetically inspired and sometimes obviously not. Ie: Preaching for slavery (D&C 134:12) and God supposedly demanding wife to perform or ELSE (D&C 132:54,56,64) were Joseph talking, not God nor Christ.

Again, Christ’s quotes during his life in the NT repeatedly teach that as Christians, our highest priorities should involve helping those in need. So any preaching about using Jesus Christ’s name to build up a corporate empire and denying tithes to the poor, are using Christ’s name in vain and is contrary to what Christ taught.

How do you know which teachings of the New Testament were just Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, or Paul talking, and not Christ?

Both books are written by men giving accounts of what they saw and heard regarding the Savior. Jesus himself did not write either one.

That’s right!
And if you look at the history of biblical canon and even lds scripture- you see how it’s been changed. And it’s good to keep in mind nobody’s perfect - not even scripture authors.

So, what I try to do is become as Christlike as I can by exploring “the kingdom of God within” - studying, thinking and praying to see clearly what is of God and what is not. I’m not trying to reinvent the wheel - I learn from others - but I also use the brain God gave me along with the spirit.

Just where does the idea that the kingdom of God is within come from?

Jesus Christ...
“And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.” - Luke 17:20-21

righteousrepublic wrote: ↑July 1st, 2018, 11:43 am The church donates, openly, to all sorts of humanitarian causes. has done for decades.

Individuals, on the other hand, by way of charity may give money on the spur of the moment to a street person, or maybe give away a nice piece of furniture to someone in need and do it quietly and not run around boasting about it.

https://ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopic.p ... de#p777947

The cited article almost disappeared. Professional LDS too often sell stuff such as G. Beck’s An Unlikely Mormon.

Thinker wrote: ↑July 1st, 2018, 10:47 pmIt would be good if you heeded your own advice.
You have made incorrect assumptions about me and judged me on them.

Perhaps I was thinking of someone else, so I apologize. There are non-members that think they know all about the church and its activities that make horrendous judgements without pure knowledge.
Again, I'm sorry for my misinformation.

Thinker wrote: ↑July 1st, 2018, 10:59 pm

righteousrepublic wrote: ↑July 1st, 2018, 8:33 pm

Thinker wrote: ↑July 1st, 2018, 7:43 pm

captainfearnot wrote: ↑July 1st, 2018, 7:39 pm

How do you know which teachings of the New Testament were just Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, or Paul talking, and not Christ?

Both books are written by men giving accounts of what they saw and heard regarding the Savior. Jesus himself did not write either one.

That’s right!
And if you look at the history of biblical canon and even lds scripture- you see how it’s been changed. And it’s good to keep in mind nobody’s perfect - not even scripture authors.

So, what I try to do is become as Christlike as I can by exploring “the kingdom of God within” - studying, thinking and praying to see clearly what is of God and what is not. I’m not trying to reinvent the wheel - I learn from others - but I also use the brain God gave me along with the spirit.

Just where does the idea that the kingdom of God is within come from?

Jesus Christ...
“And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.” - Luke 17:20-21

Please read the associated references and you'll discover that that scripture is wrong and was corrected by Joseph Smith. It actually means " the kingdom of God is among you..."you" being plural.

Was that one of the JST corrections that Joseph borrowed from Clarke's Commentary?

http://jur.byu.edu/?p=21296

righteousrepublic wrote: ↑July 1st, 2018, 11:38 pm

Thinker wrote: ↑July 1st, 2018, 10:59 pm

righteousrepublic wrote: ↑July 1st, 2018, 8:33 pm

Thinker wrote: ↑July 1st, 2018, 7:43 pm
That’s right!
And if you look at the history of biblical canon and even lds scripture- you see how it’s been changed. And it’s good to keep in mind nobody’s perfect - not even scripture authors.

So, what I try to do is become as Christlike as I can by exploring “the kingdom of God within” - studying, thinking and praying to see clearly what is of God and what is not. I’m not trying to reinvent the wheel - I learn from others - but I also use the brain God gave me along with the spirit.

Just where does the idea that the kingdom of God is within come from?

Jesus Christ...
“And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.” - Luke 17:20-21

Please read the associated references and you'll discover that that scripture is wrong and was corrected by Joseph Smith. It actually means " the kingdom of God is among you..."you" being plural.

Yeah, I thought about that after I’d written that our church didn’t corrupt scripture but in that case I was mistaken. When all else fails, consider your own experience. Have you ever felt God outside of you? Do you feel anything outside of you?

The idea that the kingdom of God is within is so obvious but corrupt religious teachings have persuaded many to believe otherwise and they thereby miss so much! Michaelangelo studied a lot, including scripture and anatomy, which helped him create amazing art of human beings and symbolic truths. Notice the shape in which God is represented looks like the shape of a human brain. Michaelangelo seemed to understand the scripture, “The kingdom of God is within you.”

Thinker wrote: ↑July 2nd, 2018, 7:56 am“The kingdom of God is within you.”

So you presume that the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, along with millions of Celestialized spirits and concourses of angels, including all their glory individually, are within you?

Do you presume that all righteous people have this same kingdom within them? How is this possible?

How can we divide up God's kingdom and then place it in so many people that think they are righteous?

How is it that every person thinking they are righteous may go about claiming to have God's kingdom inside them?

The idea alone is way too much to absorb.

Please explain.

Most translations render Luke 17:21 as "... the kingdom of God is in your midst (or among you)." Clarke's commentary has not comment on it. Ha, ha.

Jesef wrote: ↑July 2nd, 2018, 12:06 pm Most translations render Luke 17:21 as "... the kingdom of God is in your midst (or among you)." Clarke's commentary has not comment on it. Ha, ha.

Thank you very much, Jesef. I want to show just what we learn from scripture.

Luke 17:21
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the akingdom of God (b)is (c)within you.

21 b is
JST Luke 17:21 … has already come unto you.

21 c within
Many translations read “among” because the pronoun “you” is plural here in Greek.

Jesef wrote: ↑July 2nd, 2018, 12:06 pm Most translations render Luke 17:21 as "... the kingdom of God is in your midst (or among you)." Clarke's commentary has not comment on it. Ha, ha.

I think a very strong case can be made that this essentially means "within you". I've looked at several translations and concordances and within or in your midst either/or used. Also, the "your", I believe, is possessive, not a general designation. As in the kingdom of God is in my midst. Midst means, in the middle of. So, the kingdom of God is in the middle of you. My middle, my core, is my spirit, the spark of divine light, etc.

-Finrock

Could be double-meaning, in your midst or among you (many people) and in/within each of you. I'm not really sure why we're arguing over this. We all clearly believe that God is within us, the God/Divine spark/spirit/DNA, etc. That we are the offspring of God. And we also believe in a family of divinity, that we are all related and yet individual beings, but collectively related and together we form a divine "family" for lack of a better term - that's also the "kingdom" too, right? There, discrepancy resolved.

Jesef wrote: ↑July 2nd, 2018, 3:46 pm Could be double-meaning, in your midst or among you (many people) and in/within each of you. I'm not really sure why we're arguing over this. We all clearly believe that God is within us, the God/Divine spark/spirit/DNA, etc. That we are the offspring of God. And we also believe in a family of divinity, that we are all related and yet individual beings, but collectively related and together we form a divine "family" for lack of a better term - that's also the "kingdom" too, right? There, discrepancy resolved.

I believe it starts out and exist within and then we take what is on the inside and make it real on the outside. So, yes, I agree.

-Finrock

Luke 17:21 the kingdom of God is within you
Posted on July 10, 2017 by LDS Scripture Teachings

The Joseph Smith translation changes Luke 17:21 to read, “the kingdom of God has already come unto you…”

Bruce R. McConkie

Bruce R. McConkie 1915-1985

“One of the heresies which prevails in a large part of modern Christendom is the concept that Jesus did not organize a Church or set up a formal kingdom through which salvation might be offered to men. This poorly translated verse is one of those used to support the erroneous concept that the kingdom of God is wholly spiritual; that it is made up of those who confess Jesus with their lips, regardless of what church affiliation they may have; that the kingdom of God is within every person in the sense that all have the potential of attaining the highest spiritual goals; and that baptism, the laying on of hands, celestial marriage, and other ordinances and laws are not essential to the attainment of salvation.”

Joseph Fielding Smith

“This should be ‘the kingdom of God is among you.’ This is the marginal reading in most copies of the Bible and this is the interpretation the Prophet Joseph Smith has placed upon it. The kingdom of God was among them from the time John went forth proclaiming the coming of Jesus Christ and baptizing for the remission of sins.”


Source: https://ldsscriptureteachings.org/2017/ ... ithin-you/

righteousrepublic wrote: ↑July 2nd, 2018, 9:44 am

Thinker wrote: ↑July 2nd, 2018, 7:56 am“The kingdom of God is within you.”

So you presume that the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, along with millions of Celestialized spirits and concourses of angels, including all their glory individually, are within you?

Do you presume that all righteous people have this same kingdom within them? How is this possible?

How can we divide up God's kingdom and then place it in so many people that think they are righteous?

How is it that every person thinking they are righteous may go about claiming to have God's kingdom inside them?

The idea alone is way too much to absorb.

Please explain.

Thanks for asking this. You’ve got me thinking, studying and trying to more deeply figure out spiritual truths. I looked up other possible questions some have raised too. First, it’s important to realize that who we are is more than meets the eyes - and so is God and spiritual truths.

Some suggest Jesus meant “among you” when Jesus said the kingdom of God is within you, because he was speaking to Pharisees who he called hypocrites etc. And some say, the kingdom of God is not within people like the Pharisees, but that is incorrect. The kingdom of God is within ALL. Just not all realize it and are in tune within. And Jesus used his exchanges with Pharisees as opportunities to teach universal principles applicable to all. When Pharisees asked who is my neighbor, & Jesus basically said love everyone you meet, Jesus was not saying, “you Pharisees are sure loving guys!”...but he was saying “Love one another.” When he said, “the kingdom of God is within you” he knew that the Pharisees & others all had it within them, even if they hadn’t realized, explored or magnified it yet.

It has been suggested that Jesus was referring to himself as God among you - but remember when addressed as GOoD master, Jesus corrected him by saying, “Why callest thou me GOoD, none is GOoD, save one - that is God.” And Jesus telling us to follow him and do all he did and more, suggests that as he experienced the kingdom of God within, so can we. It doesn’t say “amidst you” nor “among you” for good reason. It makes no sense to first explain that the kingdom of God is not observable & that nobody can point to it... & then state “Tada! Here I am - as you observe me in your midst.” God’s spirit is not observable & is within.

I realize this can be a difficult paradigm shift to make- it was for me. At first, I thought, “So, God is all in my head??” Now I realize that God is in ALL, but all that I know God to be, is through my own experiences - my own kingdom (realm) within. Children tend to think in concrete terms, which is why putting a blanket between a child & parent makes the child think the parent disappeared. Eventually the child comes to realize that when a parent seems to disappear- it is only the child’s perception, not reality. Many of us as adults still forget how much our life experiences (thoughts and feelings) come from our own perception. But as we realize it more, we are able to use our free agency in amazingly better and higher ways! Such realization can lessen the pain of heartbreak, grief and other emotional suffering. We can also learn to “pray always” - to train our minds to always want to know God’s guidance and love. We can more often have the Spirit with us.

When we realize that the kingdom (our experience) of God is within, we realize that when it seems God is not responding to us, it is not because God has disappeared, but we have turned away, or others have turned from God. Similarly, each night’s darkness doesn’t mean the Sun is gone, but we have, our side of the earth has, turned away from the sun.

“I believe in the sun, even when it's not shining.
I believe in love, even when I don't feel it.
I believe in God, even when He is silent.”
“These three lines were scratched into the wall of a German concentration camp during WW2. In the midst of horror, someone declared their faith in the God that did not answer the way they thought He would.”

Now, we have spiritual battles going on around us and we need to maintain hope and faith even when it seems hopeless. Within us is a whole world to explore! And some have explored their kingdom of God within and have given maps. Jesus did but more in parables - symbols. Others have spelled it out in spiritual stages, and there seems to be some universal truth to such stages yet, we each experience it uniquely. This is partly why I could never prove my experience of God to you and you couldn’t prove yours to me. It’s deeply personal. And yet, we are God’s hands. When a person prays, he is accessing divine powers within them as well as asking for the GOoD in others to help. Some of us sense this - even if subconsciously- and we often answer one another’s prayers. But sometimes we don’t because we ignore those promptings. That is why, ie one’s prayer to find their keys is answered, while a mother’s prayers for her starving child are not. When the kingdom of god comes, it is God, (not pride etc) ruling one’s heart.

Thinker wrote: ↑July 3rd, 2018, 7:26 am

righteousrepublic wrote: ↑July 2nd, 2018, 9:44 am

Thinker wrote: ↑July 2nd, 2018, 7:56 am“The kingdom of God is within you.”

So you presume that the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, along with millions of Celestialized spirits and concourses of angels, including all their glory individually, are within you?

Do you presume that all righteous people have this same kingdom within them? How is this possible?

How can we divide up God's kingdom and then place it in so many people that think they are righteous?

How is it that every person thinking they are righteous may go about claiming to have God's kingdom inside them?

The idea alone is way too much to absorb.

Please explain.

Thanks for asking this. You’ve got me thinking, studying and trying to more deeply figure out spiritual truths. I looked up other possible questions some have raised too. First, it’s important to realize that who we are is more than meets the eyes - and so is God and spiritual truths.

Some suggest Jesus meant “among you” when Jesus said the kingdom of God is within you, because he was speaking to Pharisees who he called hypocrites etc. And some say, the kingdom of God is not within people like the Pharisees, but that is incorrect. The kingdom of God is within ALL. Just not all realize it and are in tune within. And Jesus used his exchanges with Pharisees as opportunities to teach universal principles applicable to all. When Pharisees asked who is my neighbor, & Jesus basically said love everyone you meet, Jesus was not saying, “you Pharisees are sure loving guys!”...but he was saying “Love one another.” When he said, “the kingdom of God is within you” he knew that the Pharisees & others all had it within them, even if they hadn’t realized, explored or magnified it yet.

It has been suggested that Jesus was referring to himself as God among you - but remember when addressed as GOoD master, Jesus corrected him by saying, “Why callest thou me GOoD, none is GOoD, save one - that is God.” And Jesus telling us to follow him and do all he did and more, suggests that as he experienced the kingdom of God within, so can we. It doesn’t say “amidst you” nor “among you” for good reason. It makes no sense to first explain that the kingdom of God is not observable & that nobody can point to it... & then state “Tada! Here I am - as you observe me in your midst.” God’s spirit is not observable & is within.

I realize this can be a difficult paradigm shift to make- it was for me. At first, I thought, “So, God is all in my head??” Now I realize that God is in ALL, but all that I know God to be, is through my own experiences - my own kingdom (realm) within. Children tend to think in concrete terms, which is why putting a blanket between a child & parent makes the child think the parent disappeared. Eventually the child comes to realize that when a parent seems to disappear- it is only the child’s perception, not reality. Many of us as adults still forget how much our life experiences (thoughts and feelings) come from our own perception. But as we realize it more, we are able to use our free agency in amazingly better and higher ways! Such realization can lessen the pain of heartbreak, grief and other emotional suffering. We can also learn to “pray always” - to train our minds to always want to know God’s guidance and love. We can more often have the Spirit with us.

When we realize that the kingdom (our experience) of God is within, we realize that when it seems God is not responding to us, it is not because God has disappeared, but we have turned away, or others have turned from God. Similarly, each night’s darkness doesn’t mean the Sun is gone, but we have, our side of the earth has, turned away from the sun.

“I believe in the sun, even when it's not shining.
I believe in love, even when I don't feel it.
I believe in God, even when He is silent.”
“These three lines were scratched into the wall of a German concentration camp during WW2. In the midst of horror, someone declared their faith in the God that did not answer the way they thought He would.”

Now, we have spiritual battles going on around us and we need to maintain hope and faith even when it seems hopeless. Within us is a whole world to explore! And some have explored their kingdom of God within and have given maps. Jesus did but more in parables - symbols. Others have spelled it out in spiritual stages, and there seems to be some universal truth to such stages yet, we each experience it uniquely. This is partly why I could never prove my experience of God to you and you couldn’t prove yours to me. It’s deeply personal. And yet, we are God’s hands. When a person prays, he is accessing divine powers within them as well as asking for the GOoD in others to help. Some of us sense this - even if subconsciously- and we often answer one another’s prayers. But sometimes we don’t because we ignore those promptings. That is why, ie one’s prayer to find their keys is answered, while a mother’s prayers for her starving child are not. When the kingdom of god comes, it is God, (not pride etc) ruling one’s heart.

I posed some questions that weren't answered, but okay. Your narrative is yours and you believe it to be true and this is fine, however, it doesn't match what a Prophet has declared, even Joseph Fielding Smith, of whom says it should be "the kingdom of God is among you". We are left in a position of agreeing to disagree. I guess this is what happens a lot on this forum. But to chastise someone of believing a certain way is not conducive to good dialog, let alone understanding and respect. All of us are still on a learning journey and for whatever reasons learn differently at times. However, we must be steadfast and immovable on staying on the path and reach the "Tree of Life."

RighteousRepublic,
I did answer your questions, just maybe not as you’d prefer. But I didn’t answer what I don’t know - that is the details of God, which nobody knows. We all are children of God - and are gods in embryo. Our bodies are temples that house the kingdom of God within. This is in scripture and it makes sense - despite traditional corruption of doctrinal interpretations.

I didn’t mean to chastise you. What did I write that made you feel that way?

Thinker wrote: ↑July 3rd, 2018, 2:00 pm RighteousRepublic,
I did answer your questions, just maybe not as you’d prefer. But I didn’t answer what I don’t know - that is the details of God, which nobody knows. We all are children of God - and are gods in embryo. Our bodies are temples that house the kingdom of God within. This is in scripture and it makes sense - despite traditional corruption of doctrinal interpretations.

I didn’t mean to chastise you. What did I write that made you feel that way?

I didn't mean you were chastising me, rather, I was speaking in general terms. We shouldn't chastise another for their beliefs. It's too bad we don't have anything written in cement that every believer can agree on. But as we can see, even the ten commandments aren't adhered to because of those that don't want to abide by them. They think they are better than God, or that they are so special that what God says has no weight in their lives. And it's unlikey that we can get a hundred people together and have them all agree as to their meaning.