Context of Polygamy in the Book of Mormon

[MMbelieve]

There really should be no problem baptizing an adult who's parents are polygamist. It's not her that a polygamist or the church participating in it.

I think it's deeper than "we have been stuck in the mindset". With that it's kind of stating that there is no real reason when I believe there is one.

[Durzan]

For us, under current directives (in the Church), YES, it is practically irrelevant. For doctrine & understanding & even some men's hopes & wishes who are sealed to subsequent spouses after being widowed, perhaps slightly relevant, in a hypothetical next-life context. That's what I mean by irrelevant - it literally does not apply to us. And, since the earth is well-populated, and the Church's numbers are higher than ever, in history - there should never be a need to practice it again for the sake of "raising up seed" - the supposed interpretation being applied in this thread to Jacob 2:30. NO ONE has been able to explain why, if this was really God's MO in the case of needing to "raise up seed", He didn't employ it at the very beginning with Adam & 55xEve's (yes, that's a dig at Brigham's abuse of the principle, IF it is even a true principle).

Its not really that irrelevant. As pointed out, the vestiges of it are there. Its in our history whether we like it or not, and people are going to keep bringing it up everytime we mention that we are Mormons. Its literally tied to who we are as a people. We can't run or hide from it. Its a part of us, and sooner or later we'll be forced to directly confront the notion of polygamy directly. Its totally relevant. Something doesn't have to be in the foreground for it to be important or relevant.

Durzan, it seems you won't admit that polygamy is VERY POSSIBLY JUST FALSE/WRONG, that D&C 132 might be a false production. No matter how you read it, you have to twist it to reconcile it with Jacob 2 - which flatly condemns David & Solomon for having many wives and concubines as abominable whoredom, while D&C 132 starts out with the ludicrous inquiry (given Jacob 2) of why God would justify same said David & Solomon in having many wives & concubines. Jacob 2 doesn't say - only in the case of Uriah - it just flatly condemns "many wives and concubines" - & we're not even addressing CONCUBINES - WTH?

***
The young man you had challenged, Durzan was his name didn't even flinch at the points you had brought up. His face was like a stone mask. Expressionless. He appeared to be in his early to mid twenties, but his stance seemed to

"Friend, you have no idea what you are talkin' about," He responded in a slow southern drawl.

Slowly, the man removed his sunglasses revealing a pair of piercing blue-grey eyes that flatly meet your gaze. As you met his gaze, you realized that those cold orbs glowed with the air of intelligence and wisdom far beyond his age. For just a moment, you thought you saw a flicker of light dance in the boy's eyes, perhaps a trick of the light, almost as if there was a tiny flame within them. His blond hair was messy and seemed to stick up seemed to slightly, but there was no breeze in the room, and the young man's voice seemed slightly deeper than before. It was almost as though an ancient soul resided within this man's body, one that had lived a long life that was full of sorrow and regret.*

"Friend, I've been where you stand before," Durzan drawled, "several times in fact. I've asked the same kind of questions you have just asked me, and once held similar views and points. I've been up and down those roads of thoughts and impulses more times than you could imagine. I've doubted the very legitimacy of the church itself and once joined with others in saying that Brigham Young t'was an apostate. I've read the words of Anti-Mormons, True Blue Mormons, Remnant Mormons, Black mormons, white mormons, and purple polka-dotted mormons. I've agreed with people in the past that the church was run by corrupt businessmen, some of them whom I've hung out with within this here bar called the LDSFF. But I soon found that the road you currently seem to be walking leads to nowhere real quick."

"This was a time, not so long ago, when my heart was hardened and bitter. But during that time, there was still this here a part of me, deep down inside, that was always close to... God. And because of that part of me, I rose above it. I was humbled, slowly but surely, by my Father in Heaven. The process was painful, oh so painful. But I've endured, and grown stronger because of it."

"I have seen and experienced many strange and wondrous things during the 23 short years I been on this here Earth. I've seen and witnessed things that shattered my mind and heart several times over, and it was only through sheer willpower and help from the Lord himself that put me back together. I've had my understanding of the Gospel spun upside down and inside out several times over by the Lord, and the experience just about left me insane. I've learned of things you would never believe or accept even if you saw it yourself. I've had my understanding uplifted many a time over. I've seen things you could never imagine, and witnessed the impossible come true before, both the good kind and the evil kind. I've lived and died a thousand times in a single instant, and seen enough pain, sorrow, horror, sadness, to fill those lifetimes that I lived. I've seen the end, the beginning, and the beginning before the beginning, and I've seen a fate so terrible that Lucifer would willingly cast himself into Outer Darkness just to avoid it. In light of these things, what meaning do those arguments and issues you have presented have on me? I have encountered far stranger things, than the things you take issue with."

"So what do those things mean to me? Nothing, I tell you. Because I know with assurity of things far more fantastic and seemingly impossible than the simple notion that Polygamy was indeed ordained by God. And if I know such things are true, and were told to me by that same God that communed with Joseph, and that said God is also the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob of old, as well as of Nephi, Alma, and Moroni... then what reason do I have why I should doubt that simple piece of paper, that serves a part of the fundamental foundation for the reality that I know? Moreover, why should I now doubt what I recently discovered to be true through a combination of Logic, Reason, Scripture, and the Holy Spirit? Your line of reasoning, once strong enough to sway me and which I have already encountered numerous times before, is now but a small gnat in the presence of the elephant of what I already know now, and what I have known for a long time."

"I have neither twisted doctrine, nor wheedled it, I have simply looked at the context of the recorded sermon and determined that it wasn't saying what you think it was saying. God knew what the nephites were doing. He knew that the problem was more in the fallen nature of man and the hardness of their hearts. He knew that they were mistreating their wives and children, in addition to taking concubines. And He knew that even with those concubines and extra wives they were likely sleeping with harlots as well. It is the sexual sin itself that the lord finds abominable. It is the mistreatment of wives and children that the Lord will not tolerate. It is the excessive greed and pride that the Lord hates. It is the disobeying of his commandments, whether they be permanent or temporary that he does not like. All this implied or stated within the context of Jacob's sermon, which was originally intended for the Nephites of Jacobs time. It was the abridged record compiled by Moroni that was meant for our times. Not the sermon itself. The fact that said sermon is contained within the Book of Mormon indicates that God thought that the account would prove extremely useful for us in our time. "

"Furthermore, Nephi was justified by the Lord in killing Laban because of the circumstances, a sin that if it wasn't justified would be more serious than any form of sexual sin. Isn't it clear to you that Heavenly Father takes the circumstances of the sin into account before He renders judgement? And also, haven't you heard of the concept of 'line upon line, precept upon precept'? For behold, such is the case with polygamy."

As he finishes, the man's head rises and his gaze meets yours one more time. Once again, his face is expressionless, but his eyes are darker, a deeper blue. For just a moment, you once again think you see a flicker of flame in those deep eyes, and a chill runs down your spine.

"Beware whom you choose to challenge, Jesef. It may be that at some point, you will find yourself challenging one who is far beyond your ability to even approach."

***

Hope you enjoyed me letting my authorial skills stretch themselves. I am speaking the truth when I was telling that story. Your words do not phase me at all Jesef.

Anyway, your scriptural exegesis and hypothetical closed-system logic interpretations all rely on D&C 132 being TRUE - which means it can all just be flat out crap with one simple possibility admitted: Polygamy just could be wrong, D&C 132 could be an 1852 production, or BY & JS were wrong about it, along with all the frightening tales about angels and swords = God threatening people to whom He reveals this "oh so holy, have many women" practice, which MUST be obeyed or be DESTROYED! That's such crap and mystifying it and aggrandizing and putting an aura of esotericism around it doesn't change that.

Your right. I have made such assumptions. Polygamy COULD be wrong, and the revelation COULD be a farce. Except that God has threatened people before in the old testament, and has issued terrible punishments before, so it isn't entirely out of character for him. Several of these times involved angels in once capacity or another. Remember the story of Balaam and Balak in the book of Numbers, or Alma the Younger? Both times had an angel there actively threatening/pronouncing judgements on the human in question. Heck, In Balaam's case, the angel was commanded to wait for and kill Balaam with guess what... a firey sword. Even in other parts of the D&C we see God pronouncing judgement and threatening people to repent. Methinks your logic is flawed regarding that bit where you oh so hammily say "MUST be obeyed or be DESTROYED!"

You call the accounts of Joseph and Brigham to be such mystifying crap, and yet you appeal to the Book of Mormon which is filled with similar stories and accounts? A sacred book purportedly translated by the former of those two men? My my, you are an interesting person indeed Jesef. Believe and do what you will, that doesn't make the words you speak about this true; but neither does it make them false. In either case, you will stand or fall based on them, and while I may wonder what the result of that final judgement may be... it doesn't really concern me. It is between you and God.

That's my opinion. Polygamy breaks women's hearts and devalues them, whether men practice it under the guise of being "condoned by God" or not. Jacob had nothing good to say about it - and we've already presented a reasonable alternative interpretation to what he might have meant that makes a lot more sense in the context of the whole chapter.

(Please, read my response to this as if you thought I had a thick Jamaican or Indian accent and see what happens)

The breaking of hearts is a common symptom of the natural man; it is a natural result of the fall combined with a person's ability to make choices. It would happen regardless of whether or not a man takes multiple wives, or a woman takes multiple husbands.

As for the value of women, that never changes. A woman is always a daughter of God, and a man is always a son of God. A human is always a human; one body, one spirit, one soul. Likewise a personal relationship always involves two and only two, but one person can have multiple personal relationships. One relationship per pair of people, each independent of each other. The value of our souls, or our genders, our personalities and so forth never truly changes.

A woman has but one relationship with her husband, and likewise that husband with her, but he can have multiple relationships with other women to one degree or the other (friends, family members, or yes even as another wife), and likewise for the women. If the man cheats on his wife, beats her, treats her horribly, it doesn't matter when it comes to value: for I see no change in it... for either the women or the man. They are who they are, regardless of what happened to them, good or ill. The only thing that changes regarding someone's value is their own personal perceptions of their value and the the value of those around them. This perception is little more than an illusion, something that waxes and wanes based on the situation. God doesn't see it, he sees you for who you truly are. And so do I seek to see you in a like manner, though my vision is clouded by the mists of mortality.

So too is it with polygamy. You look at and see only the horror, the abuse, the misery, the heartbreak that occurs in such relationships. But the same kinds of misery happens in the relationships between parents and children, extended family, friends and enemies, and within a single monogamous marriage as well. It exists everywhere you look. What you think is unique to polygamy, isn't really unique to that institution at all, but is found everywhere. You're own views and prejudices have clouded your opinions and perceptions, and blinded you to this reality, even when I told it to you before. The evil that you see is due to the fallen nature of man. If you cannot recognize this, then you are looking through the lense of Man instead of the lense of God, my little friend, and cannot actually deal with the true problem.

As for your point concerning Jacob, I addressed that earlier. Now, let us part ways peacefully my friend... and may the hand of God bless you. Whatever the Truth concerning this matter may be, I hope that you find it. And I hope that I find it as well.

[Durzan]

There really should be no problem baptizing an adult who's parents are polygamist. It's not her that a polygamist or the church participating in it.

I think it's deeper than "we have been stuck in the mindset". With that it's kind of stating that there is no real reason when I believe there is one.

Being "stuck in the mindset" is a powerful thing that shouldn't be underestimated, especially after 100+ years of additional reinforcement of that mindset. And you are right that with it comes something a tad bit deeper. Although being stuck in the mindset by itself can go quite deep. If you really want something a more substantial reason, you could say that the loss of Polygamy was, in a sense, a very traumatizing experience for the church as an institution.

The problem isn't with baptizing her for originally being a part of a polygamous group; rather its the fact that she still genuinely believes in something the church denounced and effectively labeled as heresy ages ago that bothers the leaders. A belief that reminds them of a vital part of their history that they were forced to abandon, shoot it several times with a BB Gun, and the run over it once or twice for good measure. It brings to mind the abuses and mistreatment that that occurred as part of that past, due to the sins of man. Everytime a leader would look at her, they would be subconsciously reminded of that uncomfortable past, of how the church failed to implement polygamy properly, and of the many men who were imprisoned because of the government's frankly unconstitutional actions.

In order to change an attitude so deeply rooted in our people nowadays, you'd need a miracle.

[Durzan]

Can anyone say what the purpose of a man having many wives in heaven is? What is it that takes 2 women to do that 1 woman is not capable of doing? Why is polygamy so critical?

Whatever the reason is, it should include rational logic and a sound purpose and reason. No just because or its in the scriptures or someone famous did it a long time ago.

I'm asking why and for a logical purpose and explainaition.

Perhaps address it as a little child or to a little child. Keep it blasted simple. Marriage is not complicated so if polygamy is too complicated then perhaps it's not something anyone should be defending like they know Gods thoughts on the matter.

I explained it in a fairly simple (but admittedly in a very long winded way) when I first responded to you a few pages back, which was also part of the main subject of another thread I started that you also so happened to post in.

The simplest way I can describe it (without going into the details and logical methods needed to reach the conclusion... thats in my long-winded post) is that there is likely going to be some sort of gender imbalance in the celestial kingdom due to the choices of others, the distribution of who goes to what kingdom, and other stuff. Even if the gender ratio was roughly or exactly equal, this would still prove to be highly likely due to aforementioned reasons. Since there is a surplus of one gender, there are really only two solutions that God could enact while being both completely Just and Merciful: a) make another generation of spirit children (which would take another round of mortal probation, resulting in the exact same problem for this second generation), or b) have a relatively small portion of volunteers be willing to take on more than one spouse as an act of mercy.

Option B is the more logical and practical one, as it allows more of God's children to be exalted in the end; if it were not so, we would have a number of people who would otherwise be worthy of being exalted, yet would be denied the opportunity because of the gender inequality. Furthermore, the Celestial Kingdom is already full of people who have developed or are developing the needed qualities to make such a sacrifice, and as gods, they would have the time, patience, and capacity to love and care for all their spouses equally.

This explains why God is so insistent on restoring Polygamy to the earth (so as to hopefully teach this principle to us), that he tied it at the hip to the very revelation that revealed the requirements for exaltation being marriage, and why he is so restrictive on when and how Polygamy gets instituted in a society. Its a fundamental and sacred part of the Plan of Salvation, and just like the law of consecration, it can backfire horribly if the society isn't willing to become more christ-like. Even with severe restrictions, it can backfire. God needed Joseph to restore all things to prepare the way for the Second Coming, and one of those things was polygamy in its proper form. Unfortunately, it backfired.

Note that only a relatively small percentage of exalted beings would be required to live in Celestial Polygamous relationships, and that everyone else would be paired off.

This is why I say that when you strip away all the preconceived notions and experiences we have had, why I say that Polygamy is actually a tender mercy of the Lord.

[MMbelieve]

There really should be no problem baptizing an adult who's parents are polygamist. It's not her that a polygamist or the church participating in it.

I think it's deeper than "we have been stuck in the mindset". With that it's kind of stating that there is no real reason when I believe there is one.

Being "stuck in the mindset" is a powerful thing that shouldn't be underestimated, especially after 100+ years of additional reinforcement of that mindset. And you are right that with it comes something a tad bit deeper. Although being stuck in the mindset by itself can go quite deep. If you really want something a more substantial reason, you could say that the loss of Polygamy was, in a sense, a very traumatizing experience for the church as an institution.

The problem isn't with baptizing her for originally being a part of a polygamous group; rather its the fact that she still genuinely believes in something the church denounced and effectively labeled as heresy ages ago that bothers the leaders. A belief that reminds them of a vital part of their history that they were forced to abandon, shoot it several times with a BB Gun, and the run over it once or twice for good measure. It brings to mind the abuses and mistreatment that that occurred as part of that past, due to the sins of man. Everytime a leader would look at her, they would be subconsciously reminded of that uncomfortable past, of how the church failed to implement polygamy properly, and of the many men who were imprisoned because of the government's frankly unconstitutional actions.

In order to change an attitude so deeply rooted in our people nowadays, you'd need a miracle.

She's no different than many here who won't denounce polygamy. But she's denied baptism but if your already baptized then it's okay to vouch for it. Or as members, are we supposed to be hypocrites? Vouch for it but keep it secret while not letting in others who openly Vouch for it. I mean, it gets a little tricky.

She can be baptized because she believes in D&C more than some of members do.

[MMbelieve]

Can anyone say what the purpose of a man having many wives in heaven is? What is it that takes 2 women to do that 1 woman is not capable of doing? Why is polygamy so critical?

Whatever the reason is, it should include rational logic and a sound purpose and reason. No just because or its in the scriptures or someone famous did it a long time ago.

I'm asking why and for a logical purpose and explainaition.

Perhaps address it as a little child or to a little child. Keep it blasted simple. Marriage is not complicated so if polygamy is too complicated then perhaps it's not something anyone should be defending like they know Gods thoughts on the matter.

I explained it in a fairly simple (but admittedly in a very long winded way) when I first responded to you a few pages back, which was also part of the main subject of another thread I started that you also so happened to post in.

The simplest way I can describe it (without going into the details and logical methods needed to reach the conclusion... thats in my long-winded post) is that there is likely going to be some sort of gender imbalance in the celestial kingdom due to the choices of others, the distribution of who goes to what kingdom, and other stuff. Even if the gender ratio was roughly or exactly equal, this would still prove to be highly likely due to aforementioned reasons. Since there is a surplus of one gender, there are really only two solutions that God could enact while being both completely Just and Merciful: a) make another generation of spirit children (which would take another round of mortal probation, resulting in the exact same problem for this second generation), or b) have a relatively small portion of volunteers be willing to take on more than one spouse as an act of mercy.

Option B is the more logical and practical one, as it allows more of God's children to be exalted in the end; if it were not so, we would have a number of people who would otherwise be worthy of being exalted, yet would be denied the opportunity because of the gender inequality. Furthermore, the Celestial Kingdom is already full of people who have developed or are developing the needed qualities to make such a sacrifice, and as gods, they would have the time, patience, and capacity to love and care for all their spouses equally.

This explains why God is so insistent on restoring Polygamy to the earth (so as to hopefully teach this principle to us), that he tied it at the hip to the very revelation that revealed the requirements for exaltation being marriage, and why he is so restrictive on when and how Polygamy gets instituted in a society. Its a fundamental and sacred part of the Plan of Salvation, and just like the law of consecration, it can backfire horribly if the society isn't willing to become more christ-like. Even with severe restrictions, it can backfire. God needed Joseph to restore all things to prepare the way for the Second Coming, and one of those things was polygamy in its proper form. Unfortunately, it backfired.

Note that only a relatively small percentage of exalted beings would be required to live in Celestial Polygamous relationships, and that everyone else would be paired off.

This is why I say that when you strip away all the preconceived notions and experiences we have had, why I say that Polygamy is actually a tender mercy of the Lord.

I can understand that but what if the imbalance is more men? It's a 50/50 on which gender might be left single due to them not having a spouse.

With Joseph's way, it was more sealing's because he didn't produce children with them. It seems, we should wait until the end to decide who needs a charitable couple to adopt the singles.
Of coirse, God could know but then that gets into the agency stuff that we have a choice except perhaps we are already predestined and our life was a waste.

[Durzan]

She's no different than many here who won't denounce polygamy. But she's denied baptism but if your already baptized then it's okay to vouch for it. Or as members, are we supposed to be hypocrites? Vouch for it but keep it secret while not letting in others who openly Vouch for it. I mean, it gets a little tricky.

Your right in that it gets a bit tricky, very tricky. That was part of my point regarding this tangent as well. No, we members are not supposed to be hypocrites, but that doesn't mean it won't happen, even for church leadership. We live in a flawed world and make mistakes. Repent, forgive, and move on; no use crying over spilled milk.

Vouching for polygamy but keeping it mostly to yourself is a whole different matter from preaching it to church members. We are entitled to our own personal positions in the church, but if we start preaching things that blatantly deny or alter the doctrine of the church, we can risk putting the souls of others in possible danger. The church must respond to that.

There is some difference between her and us; its a small one when it comes to polygamy, but it is a significant one. That difference is that she actively comes from a culture that practiced and endorsed it completely, and as a result there is a chance that she would actively preach it and try to live it in the church, which could get her kicked out of the church pretty fast. When you understand this context, asking her to denounce it before being baptized as a safety precaution is not completely unreasonable. It prevents her time and the church's time from being wasted (should she do something to warrant an excommunication), and also incidentally helps to ease the church's own anxiety. Not a perfect solution, but a better one than just letting her be baptized without checking to make sure she actually believed the tenants of the church.

Not only that, but many of such cultures actively say that you cannot be exalted at all unless you are part of a polygamous marriage (which is different from what we currently believe, where you can be exalted as long as you are married for time and all eternity, regardless of wether you were monogamous or polygamous).

These differences are subtle, but have major implications if you know what to look for.

She can be baptized because she believes in D&C more than some of members do.

Heh. Can't say I disagree with you there.

[Durzan]

I can understand that but what if the imbalance is more men? It's a 50/50 on which gender might be left single due to them not having a spouse.

With Joseph's way, it was more sealing's because he didn't produce children with them. It seems, we should wait until the end to decide who needs a charitable couple to adopt the singles.
Of coirse, God could know but then that gets into the agency stuff that we have a choice except perhaps we are already predestined and our life was a waste.

Well then we'd probably have Polyandry in the CK verses Polygyny. Funny thing about that though... there are some subtle hints in D&C 132 that Polyandry might actually be possible and even doctrinally supported.

However, since 132 dealt mostly with Polygyny, and we haven't gotten any revelations about Polyandry (as far as I know), I think its safe to assume that there will likely be at least a few more women then men in the CK.

With Joseph's way, it was more sealing's because he didn't produce children with them. It seems, we should wait until the end to decide who needs a charitable couple to adopt the singles.
Of coirse, God could know but then that gets into the agency stuff that we have a choice except perhaps we are already predestined and our life was a waste.

If the stories are true, Joseph REALLLYYY didn't want to do polygamy in the first place (Thats why God sent the angel to tell him He's serious about it). I believe that his relationship with Emma was one of the high points in his life, and that he loved her so much that he didn't want to marry another woman. I don't think he wanted to break her heart or cause her to lose any blessings. Plus Emma had a fowl temper, and we all know the saying that "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned." But we both know that Joseph and Emma reluctantly went with the Lord's will.

Keep in mind that God often has more than one purpose for enacting a temporary law. In the case of Polygamy on earth, God cited the Abrahamic Covenant as a main reason for restoring it, and was basically telling Joseph to have kids in 132. We both know he didn't do that (at least, according to the evidence, anyway).

Also, in my analysis of the D&C, I noted that there were some implications stated in some of the verses that indicated that Polygamy had other uses besides bringing forth children. For instance there was a verse that said if a woman was falsely accused of adultery, she would be permitted to marry a more righteous man who didn't commit adultery. I speculated that as such, Polygamy could be used as a way to rescue a woman from an abusive/neglectful/unrighteous husband, as a form of charity to help provide for a widow or homeless woman, and so forth. Polygamy is ancient, and the laws laid forth were originally established during a time when marriage was one of the few ways to actually care for a woman. Thus, it was one way for a man to show love and charity to a woman he cared deeply about, or help the widow of his brother. Not only that, but marriage was also one of the few ways a woman could gain status, power, and prestige.

[Arenera]

25 pages later: Polygamy is IRRELEVANT.

The current Brethren will have to disavow it & D&C 132 in order to convince some TBM's that this would so. It's easier just to leave D&C 132 alone, have people read it today as if it's referring to monogamy, and keep on moving.

Durzan did a great job reviewing D&C 132!

Sometimes these battle threads will lead to a person, in this case Durzan, to find extra information or even change notions.

That happened to me on a polygamy thread sometime back. I took time to study, put all the information together, make a decision, and get confirmation.

With polygamy, there isn’t “exact” information, a person can decide it is wrong, a person can decide God commands at different times. Polygamy can be practiced as an abomination like we see some practice it in our times. We didn’t live 150 years ago but there are many Saints whose ancestors practiced polygamy and are the seed raised up.

For me and my spouse, we have some ancestors who practiced polygamy in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I only know that from genealogy.

Today it is best to have a relationship between spouses as best as possible. I like this from President Nelson: Celestial Marriage

The subject of marriage is debated across the world, where various arrangements exist for conjugal living. My purpose in speaking out on this topic is to declare, as an Apostle of the Lord, that marriage between a man and a woman is sacred—it is ordained of God. I also assert the virtue of a temple marriage. It is the highest and most enduring type of marriage that our Creator can offer to His children.

One strong sentence of scripture clearly distinguishes between a hopeful wish and eternal truth: “All covenants, contracts, … obligations, oaths, vows, … or expectations, that are not made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, of him who is anointed, both as well for time and for all eternity, … are of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead.”

[Jesef]

Gotta love religion & spirituality: logic, reason, and even actual observation of causes, effects, and outcomes (history), can ALWAYS be overridden by mysticism & spiritual experience. TESTIFY! That's what you've basically achieved on this thread, Durzan. You know it & God knows it. Ha, ha. Now we're (the discussion is) back to: let's just assume that Polygamy is True & Good and try to understand and explore it in all its glory! Ha, ha. Because you/Durzan played the TRUMP card: You KNOW it's TRUE (and your revelation blew away & transcended all reason & logic & doubt & concern you ever had before - all the ones we've mentioned on this thread, in fact!). No offense, but you did. But then you didn't do a very good job sharing in a coherent enough way that we could understand HOW your spiritual confirmation really convinced you and communicated the information that you interpreted/claimed you got from it. Very mystical & mysterious (almost incomprehensible, man). Made me wonder if you're a little off-balance - you said yourself you're looney-toons/mad-hatter - are you? You hear voices? Have you validated your voices against reality? There's a little bit of sarcasm in this comment, but it's not intended to offend you. I think you're a unique character & I like your thoughts and ideas and even ramblings sometimes. Even though you kinda have that air of spiritual superiority - you're a spiritual super-hero, with special & extraordinary powers & insights (the lightning crackling across your eyes). You're like Rand 'al Thor with the True Power, man! (if you even get that reference - you might be too young - fantasy book series called The Wheel of Time). Maybe you're just kidding, maybe there's some truth to your self-portrayal. Still, you could be right. Since you've played the INCONTROVERTIBLE PERSONAL REVELATION/KNOWLEDGE card, maybe you can share more about that - teach the rest of us how to achieve the same CERTAINTY about these issues, as you have. Hmm?

Maybe you should start a thread that's about your testimony, D, and how you KNOW WHAT YOU KNOW, and the process by which you achieved that. I'm not kidding - I'd really like to read/hear it. This thread is dead, though. You should start a new one about "the hypothetical mechanics of Celestial Polygamy" or something like that.

[Finrock]

Its not really that irrelevant. As pointed out, the vestiges of it are there. Its in our history whether we like it or not, and people are going to keep bringing it up everytime we mention that we are Mormons. Its literally tied to who we are as a people. We can't run or hide from it. Its a part of us, and sooner or later we'll be forced to directly confront the notion of polygamy directly. Its totally relevant. Something doesn't have to be in the foreground for it to be important or relevant.

It's irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. Nobody - not now, not ever - needs to be in a polygamous relationship in order to be saved/exalted. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is simple and easy to understand. Even the person with the most rudimentary understanding, sophistication, and ability, can understand and live the gospel of Jesus Christ and be exalted just like the mighty Lion. In fact, its probably easier for a simple, pure, unsophisticated individual to be exalted by exercising faith in Jesus Christ than it is a prideful, roaring lion.

The Plan of Salvation is not about polygamy, its not about loyalty test to fallible leaders, its not about all these rituals/ordinances, its not about the peripheral or the tools that God has given to help a sinful people to come unto Him. Its about loving God and loving others, even your enemy, as yourself. Being good, kind, gentle, meek, easily entreated, etc. Its about having the Holy Spirit or the Spirit of Christ, which comes from a broken heart and contrite spirit and being as a child. Being as a child. Children don't understand polygamy. They don't give a crap about it. Its useless to them. They care about life, having fun, being happy, being nice, the Golden rule, having joy, being carefree. This type of liberty is available through the atonement of Jesus Christ regardless of age. Its awesome.

-Finrock

[Arenera]

Well done Durzan, you blew the skeptics apart. Condensendingly they fall and try to distract.

[Durzan]

Its not really that irrelevant. As pointed out, the vestiges of it are there. Its in our history whether we like it or not, and people are going to keep bringing it up everytime we mention that we are Mormons. Its literally tied to who we are as a people. We can't run or hide from it. Its a part of us, and sooner or later we'll be forced to directly confront the notion of polygamy directly. Its totally relevant. Something doesn't have to be in the foreground for it to be important or relevant.

It's irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. Nobody - not now, not ever - needs to be in a polygamous relationship in order to be saved/exalted. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is simple and easy to understand. Even the person with the most rudimentary understanding, sophistication, and ability, can understand and live the gospel of Jesus Christ and be exalted just like the mighty Lion. In fact, its probably easier for a simple, pure, unsophisticated individual to be exalted by exercising faith in Jesus Christ than it is a prideful, roaring lion.

The Plan of Salvation is not about polygamy, its not about loyalty test to fallible leaders, its not about all these rituals/ordinances, its not about the peripheral or the tools that God has given to help a sinful people to come unto Him. Its about loving God and loving others, even your enemy, as yourself. Being good, kind, gentle, meek, easily entreated, etc. Its about having the Holy Spirit or the Spirit of Christ, which comes from a broken heart and contrite spirit and being as a child. Being as a child. Children don't understand polygamy. They don't give a crap about it. Its useless to them. They care about life, having fun, being happy, being nice, the Golden rule, having joy, being carefree. This type of liberty is available through the atonement of Jesus Christ regardless of age. Its awesome.

-Finrock

Although I do not agree with everything you say here and still believe that Polygamy is both relevant and easy to understand when you have your mind enlighted by the Lord, I appreciate this statement. The Gospel, the good news of Christ (the doctrines of Faith, Repentance, Baptism by Emersion, the Gift of the Holy Ghost, and Enduring to the End) is simple. But paradoxically, I've found that its the simple things presented on their own are often the hardest truths for mankind to comprehend, while the complicated things are much easier for me to understand. A complicated issue is really just a composite of simple parts, and with a logical mind enlightened by God you can break the complicated things down into these simple parts and gain a better understanding by studying the components individually.

A polygynous family is no different. It is made up of multiple relationships, with the personal relationships between the husband and each of his wives forming the core of it. Break it down and you find that each of these core relationships is essentially the same as the relationship between a single monogamous couple.

The Plan of salvation is also the same way: Its a complicated piece of mental engineering. But like polygamy, you can break it down into simpler parts: The Pre-Mortal Life, The Fall of Adam and Mortality, the Atonement of Jesus Christ, the Spirit World, Resserection and Judgement, the individual degrees of Glory, The Eternal Family, The Laws of God and His thought Processes, and so forth. None of the Doctrines of the Church are really more complicated than your own mind makes them. The Gospel is simple, just like you said.

You are right that the plan of salvation is not about Polygamy. Its about learning, development, growth, and ultimately families. It is about loving God and others and developing christ-like attributes However, there is a small but vital place in it for polygamy, which I have explained over and over again in points previously and in as plain a language as I could muster.

My words cannot fully express my full thoughts and feelings concerning the matter, nor can I adequately put words to express the other experiences I've had regarding this or other matters. I can only simply state my testimony, even as you bore your testimony concerning how children don't care for polygamy and of your own views concerning celestial marriage. The more I examine polygamy and other aspects of the Plan of Salvation, the more I've come to realize that this plan is more intricate, well thought out, and sophisticated than it initially seems. Little details are accounted for, like that apparent gender inequality I noted is almost certain to exist within the CK, which would prevent some qualified individuals from otherwise being exalted if it weren't for polygamy. Its not complicated how all these pieces fit together. Its not that complicated if you step back and break it down.

I know polygamy is a true principle and a tender mercy of the Lord, and I testify of this in solemnity. I have seen it, I have studied it out in my mind, and I have felt the spirit. God knows what he is doing. Although polygamy isn't required for any single pair of individuals to become exalted, it is necessary in the grand scheme of things to ensure that all who are worthy and able of receiving exaltation get the chance to do so. It is a small, but important piece of the doctrine that is Celestial Marriage and Exaltation. I testify this in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts, there were inspiring and uplifting.

[Jesef]

There you go playing the mystically/spiritually superior "when you have your mind enlightened by the Lord" card again, Durzan. You do realize that IS literally condescending, right? How enlightened is it to be condescending and know-it-all? You've implied that Finrock & me & others who disagree with you are un-enlightened and you've appealed to your superior spiritual experience and insight to "prove" it. Hmm. No disrespect intended - honest feedback on your MO here in this thread and others.

[Jesef]

God bless you, too, btw, Durzan. Peace to all of you.

[MMbelieve]

The man may have the same relationship with each wife as he would in monogamy BUT, it's a different mindset to him because he has to have that mentality in multiples. It's hard enough to have it singularly.

It's really not the same because in a monogamous union, the couple is intimate with only each other. So you can say it's no different if he has this with each of his wives but it really is different. He's being intimate with more than one woman. Thus it's impossible to be true monogamy.

If I was intimate with each of my 7 husbands or whatever number, how is that true monogamy? Would I really feel monogamous if I spent the night with a different man each day of the week? I dont think i would feel monogamous.

However anyone wants to spin polygamy to being good for this or that reason, it in no way means it's just a row of monogamous relationships.

He's being intimate with others, and women are expected to be okay with it because each marriage is different? Well, what's similar to each relationship? Him. I don't want to be with a man who is also being with other women regardless of whatever qualities I advance such as charity and compassion.

To me it's unclean. He's sharing his actual physical body with other bodies then sharing it with mine? Yeah, not okay with that.

So he has multiple monogamous relationships but really, it's not monogamy in the least.

This is an important aspect of polygamy on earth and if you believe so, in heaven as well. It's not gross to talk about or improper. It's not monogamy to him and because of that, she's getting intimacy from a man who has intimacy outside of their relationship. It's really not clean.

[Jesef]

MM, it's almost pointless to debate the "Celestial" version of this. Because one of the premises for that is that it's practically incomprehensible - it's so high and holy and glorious and ALIEN/DIFFERENT - that every reservation you have about it as a human being is irrelevant and inapplicable. "You simply can't understand it in your current state, but it's TRUE nonetheless." So it doesn't have to make sense, it doesn't have to work, it doesn't have to have a healthy or normal looking earthly counterpart or implementation, etc., etc. And this is the ultimate catch-all for something spiritually bizarre still being TRUE and GOOD: it's just mysteriously incomprehensible or relatable at least (in your human/earthly state). Get it? That's why a transcendent spiritual denouement is required in order to really get onboard with this - so you can have a really powerful but unutterable experience that assures you it's okay even though it looks insane. Okay?

[Durzan]

MM, it's almost pointless to debate the "Celestial" version of this. Because one of the premises for that is that it's practically incomprehensible - it's so high and holy and glorious and ALIEN/DIFFERENT - that every reservation you have about it as a human being is irrelevant and inapplicable. "You simply can't understand it in your current state, but it's TRUE nonetheless." So it doesn't have to make sense, it doesn't have to work, it doesn't have to have a healthy or normal looking earthly counterpart or implementation, etc., etc. And this is the ultimate catch-all for something spiritually bizarre still being TRUE and GOOD: it's just mysteriously incomprehensible or relatable at least (in your human/earthly state). Get it? That's why a transcendent spiritual denouement is required in order to really get onboard with this - so you can have a really powerful but unutterable experience that assures you it's okay even though it looks insane. Okay?

I think you are over-exaggerating how incomprehensible it actually is.

[MMbelieve]

MM, it's almost pointless to debate the "Celestial" version of this. Because one of the premises for that is that it's practically incomprehensible - it's so high and holy and glorious and ALIEN/DIFFERENT - that every reservation you have about it as a human being is irrelevant and inapplicable. "You simply can't understand it in your current state, but it's TRUE nonetheless." So it doesn't have to make sense, it doesn't have to work, it doesn't have to have a healthy or normal looking earthly counterpart or implementation, etc., etc. And this is the ultimate catch-all for something spiritually bizarre still being TRUE and GOOD: it's just mysteriously incomprehensible or relatable at least (in your human/earthly state). Get it? That's why a transcendent spiritual denouement is required in order to really get onboard with this - so you can have a really powerful but unutterable experience that assures you it's okay even though it looks insane. Okay?

I think you are over-exaggerating how incomprehensible it actually is.

He does have a point though.

[Durzan]

MM, it's almost pointless to debate the "Celestial" version of this. Because one of the premises for that is that it's practically incomprehensible - it's so high and holy and glorious and ALIEN/DIFFERENT - that every reservation you have about it as a human being is irrelevant and inapplicable. "You simply can't understand it in your current state, but it's TRUE nonetheless." So it doesn't have to make sense, it doesn't have to work, it doesn't have to have a healthy or normal looking earthly counterpart or implementation, etc., etc. And this is the ultimate catch-all for something spiritually bizarre still being TRUE and GOOD: it's just mysteriously incomprehensible or relatable at least (in your human/earthly state). Get it? That's why a transcendent spiritual denouement is required in order to really get onboard with this - so you can have a really powerful but unutterable experience that assures you it's okay even though it looks insane. Okay?

I think you are over-exaggerating how incomprehensible it actually is.

He does have a point though.

Yep, he does. Thats why I was focusing on the logic of why its possible instead of the actual mechanics of it. Cause thats something you can actually have a somewhat meaningful discussion on.

And for the record, I don't believe in having physical sex in heaven.

[Arenera]

MM, it's almost pointless to debate the "Celestial" version of this. Because one of the premises for that is that it's practically incomprehensible - it's so high and holy and glorious and ALIEN/DIFFERENT - that every reservation you have about it as a human being is irrelevant and inapplicable. "You simply can't understand it in your current state, but it's TRUE nonetheless." So it doesn't have to make sense, it doesn't have to work, it doesn't have to have a healthy or normal looking earthly counterpart or implementation, etc., etc. And this is the ultimate catch-all for something spiritually bizarre still being TRUE and GOOD: it's just mysteriously incomprehensible or relatable at least (in your human/earthly state). Get it? That's why a transcendent spiritual denouement is required in order to really get onboard with this - so you can have a really powerful but unutterable experience that assures you it's okay even though it looks insane. Okay?

I think you are over-exaggerating how incomprehensible it actually is.

He does have a point though.

Yep, he does. Thats why I was focusing on the logic of why its possible instead of the actual mechanics of it. Cause thats something you can actually have a somewhat meaningful discussion on.

And for the record, I don't believe in having physical sex in heaven.

Did Christ eat after he was resurrected?

If there is no sex in heaven, there would be no issue with polygamy.

Keep studying.

[Durzan]

God bless you, too, btw, Durzan. Peace to all of you.

Thanks for the verbal sparring match. You made my day.

[MMbelieve]

I think you are over-exaggerating how incomprehensible it actually is.

He does have a point though.

Yep, he does. Thats why I was focusing on the logic of why its possible instead of the actual mechanics of it. Cause thats something you can actually have a somewhat meaningful discussion on.

And for the record, I don't believe in having physical sex in heaven.

Did Christ eat after he was resurrected?

If there is no sex in heaven, there would be no issue with polygamy.

Keep studying.

Did Christ have to eat?

Your assumption is stating the only possible issue with polygamy is the sex which is not true, there are more issues than that.

[Arenera]

He does have a point though.

Yep, he does. Thats why I was focusing on the logic of why its possible instead of the actual mechanics of it. Cause thats something you can actually have a somewhat meaningful discussion on.

And for the record, I don't believe in having physical sex in heaven.

Did Christ eat after he was resurrected?

If there is no sex in heaven, there would be no issue with polygamy.

Keep studying.

Did Christ have to eat?

Your assumption is stating the only possible issue with polygamy is the sex which is not true, there are more issues than that.

If persons are of one heart, they ensure they help with each other. Whether it is one man and one woman, or one man and four women, if they are of one heart they are happy.

There are no issues. In the Celestial Kingdom there is continuation of seed.

[Durzan]

I think you are over-exaggerating how incomprehensible it actually is.

He does have a point though.

Yep, he does. Thats why I was focusing on the logic of why its possible instead of the actual mechanics of it. Cause thats something you can actually have a somewhat meaningful discussion on.

And for the record, I don't believe in having physical sex in heaven.

Did Christ eat after he was resurrected?

If there is no sex in heaven, there would be no issue with polygamy.

Keep studying.

Sex on earth is likened unto procreation in Heaven right? That doesn't mean they function exactly the same. Sure, I suppose that an exalted couple could have sex, but that doesn't mean it will or will not have any effect. Jesus doesn't need to eat, but he can do so. Likewise, I suppose that an exalted person can have sex, but doesn't need to like a mortal does. (Yes, sex is an actual physical need. Its driven by an instinctive impulse that does need to be satisfied, else it starts causing physical and mental health issues. It can be controlled yes, but that impulse does need an outlet. Anyway, this is a side tangent). I don't think that a god and goddess having sex necessarily makes spirit babies or planets or whatever, as it is likely supplanted by a God's natural power and authority to organize matter and intelligence through... well, through the same functional way that God wills something to happen (whatever that is, my mind aint that strong).

Remember, that the whole reason I say Heaven has polygamy in the first place is to ensure all who are qualified for exaltation gets it. My argument has little to nothing to do with spiritual procreation. If there's a gender imbalance, then some form of polygamy is necessary. If there isn't, then its moot. Of course, my whole argument boils down to the following points:

1. God specifically prefers and encourages monogamy both on earth and in heaven, and as such it is the general standard. Polygamy may be specifically authorized by Him on Earth for specific purposes and under strict scrutiny by the Lord; all other times it is condemned on Earth due to the sacred nature of marriage and the ripe potential for abuse that Polygamy provides for the wicked as a natural result of the fallen nature of man. In the Celestial Kingdom, polygamy would be allowed as a Tender Mercy to help counter a potential gender imbalance, and to provide a way for all of Gods children who would qualify for exaltation but would otherwise be denied it because the person they were sealed to was placed in a different Kingdom, and other similar issues. In addition, those polygamous relationships already sealed as such on earth would be allowed to remain as such in the Celestial Kingdom, should all the participants desire to do so.
2. Polygamy on earth has the primary physical purpose of producing additional children in fulfillment of a specific clause of the Abrahamic covenant.
3. Polygamy on earth has the primary spiritual purpose of allowing more women on earth to be sealed to a single man, and thus potentially ensuring their exaltation.
4. Within the context of the Gospel, polygamy on earth also had a secondary function during the early days of the LDS church and during Biblical times. This purpose was for caring for the divorced and the widowed, the abused and neglected (by giving these women the chance to escape their abuser by annuling their previous marriage and marrying a more faithful man), and otherwise serving as a form of welfare and charity for women who have nowhere else to go. This was because up until fairly recently, women didn't have nearly as many rights as men and often relied upon them exclusively for support. In fact, marrying a man was a way for a woman to gain honor, power, and prestige... and having multiple wives not only increased chances for the man to have a legal heir, but also maximized the chances of a woman getting married. Furthermore, government welfare and similar programs are also a relatively recent development.
5. Within the context of the Gospel, polygamy could also have the intended secondary spiritual purpose of teaching the man patience, charity, & humility, thus helping him to develop christ-like attributes by serving and spending time with all of his wives; likewise, it could serve a similar purpose for the women, by encouraging them to help each other with the house work and the raising of children, rely on each other for aid and comfort, and also help them develop christ-like attributes. Part of the goal would be to establish a sisterly bond between the women, minimizing the chances of jealousy and contention between the women of the household. The experience should help teach and reinforce the notions of responsibility, chivalry, and honor... especially with regard to his wives.
6. Polygamy has several physical advantages on earth over Monogamy, but has distinct and critical disadvantages that are largely only in effect due to the fallen nature of man. These disadvantages are completely removed if all participants are Christ-like in nature (IE are selfless, loving, have charity, don't get jealous, are not easily angered, do not sin, and so forth). Thus, Polygamy can only be properly instituted in either Zion or the Celestial Kingdom, as those are literally the only two places where all people there are going to be christ-like. Otherwise the fallen nature of man kicks in at one point or another causing pain, heartache, jealousy, and strife.
7. The one consistent problem with polygamy on earth (regardless of wether it takes place in a christ-like society or not) is that the more wives the husband marries, the less time he has to spend with each of them, and the more his resources are spread thin. However, in the Celestial Kingdom, Exalted Beings are not as limited by this restriction (assuming they are at all).
8. D&C 132 implies that by default, only men who hold certain keys of the priesthood and who have already been guaranteed exaltation (EG, what you and many others call the "Second Anointing") are supposed to participate in polygamy, although I think God specifically has to call and ordain them to that function. I suppose that God could specifically call a specific man who doesn't have the necessary qualifications, but then he'd be given the keys if found worthy. Anyway, on earth, this means only a select few men (the ones that are supposed to be unquestionably righteous) actually can have multiple wives, and even then the Lord and the man's Wives have veto power (so long as the wives are righteous). In heaven, this could potentially be any man willing to take additional wives, as by that point, all desires of the flesh will be controlled and all men and women would have a christ-like attitude. Its because of this strict implementation why the Lord would even think about allowing polygamy to happen on earth in the first place.
9. Someway or somehow, the early saints of the church failed in some form or fashion to implement and uphold the high standards required by the Lord to maintain polygamy. This explains why God allowed the Government to force us to abandon the practice. God will likely reimplement polygamy among the saints when it is most desperately needed, and/or when Zion is established as a physical city on Earth.
10. Ultimate Conclusion: Polygamy is a sacred and tender mercy that the Lord establishes on earth and maintains a very tight leash on, just like the Law of Consecration. It is a celestial principle that can only be implemented perfectly in a Zion society or within the bounds of the Celestial Kingdom, other wise it mixes with the sinful nature of the natural man, causing additional heartache and suffering.