LDS Freedom Forum

Jesef wrote: ↑June 28th, 2018, 11:29 am

Jesef wrote: ↑June 27th, 2018, 6:17 pm See I would vote (A) with the following explanations:
> Member of church: YES
> Believe that church and leaders have keys: YES, but what do you mean by "keys", how would you define that? We might define it differently. I don't think the keys mean what many people think or believe they do. If you mean, "the authority to direct how Priesthood Authority is used in the Church", which includes directing how/who/when/what Priesthood ordinances are performed, callings, organization, etc. Then YES. Do these keys apply to the whole world? Probably not in the way most LDS think. They really don't affect most of the people in the world or most of world history even.
> Believe that 15 are true apostles or prophets of God, or at least Pres. Nelson is a true prophet of God: YES, but again, we might have different definitions of the scope and actual significance of what these titles/positions/callings mean in the grand scheme of things. You may think this is a big game of Follow the Leader/Prophet and that your eternal salvation depends on how closely and diligently you follow the living men filling these roles. You may believe that "Prophet" is akin to representative of God - like the way you treat the Prophet is the way God considers you treating God. If so, I believe you are overestimating their value or significance. I believe Prophets means Teachers, Servants of God, not Rulers, Masters, Demi-Gods - I don't believe they need to be venerated or worshipped or kowtowed to, stood for, hailed, praised, or testified of as if they are anything more than inspired humans. They don't have super-powers or super-spiritual gifts. I think we've gone WAY overboard in our prophet-worship in this Church. It's borderline ridiculous. No wonder the Brethren can't live up to these fantastic expectations. They aren't visiting with Jesus or heavenly angels every week, or going around healing the sick or raising the dead or working miracles. None that I've seen my whole 40+ years in the Church.

After looking a little more closely at the categories and descriptions, I'm changing my vote to B, because A just seems too "true blue", everything is hunky-dory/all-is-well, naive.

B. Member of church; church and leaders have keys, but leaders are prophets and apostles in title only. Still authorized to direct church.

I believe the current Apostles and Prophet are much more "normal" than some of our culture believes. I think they are often inspired, but I don't think they are miraculous or super-powered, like I said. They do not display any of the supernatural spiritual gifts, in all my 40+ years of experience with them. Their decisions seem well-considered, but very conservative rather than brave or bold, and I think they've been wrong on occasion. They are not publishing any new revelations (direct quotations from the Lord), nor are they sharing any visions or prophecies (again, in the name of the Lord) - and these would be the literal interpretations for Prophet (prophecy), Seer (sees, visions), and Revelator (revelations). Haven't seen any of that for literally decades now. Even 1978 we did not get a real published revelation dictated by the Lord (like Joseph Smith). I admire that they do things unanimously. But, for example, David O. McKay said, in a private letter to one of the Bennions (I got this directly from one of the descendants, they've kept this letter in their family) back in the 1960's/70's civil rights movement era, that the Brethren/15 had to wait for 2 Apostles to die in order to achieve unanimity on the Race/Priesthood issue. That says a lot. And then guys like McConkie publishing all their retractions for having taken adamantly strong positions on the issue. Brigham Young's statement that they would not receive Priesthood or Temple blessings until the Millennium or until all the sons of Able/Seth had received them first was the oft-quoted prooftext - totally wrong - or at least totally contradicted.

I think it's possible that the LDS/Mormon Church is a bubble, that it is not actually intended to reach every soul on earth. Reality seems to affirm this - as we currently comprise less than 0.01% of the population, and we are still barred from even proselyting to over half the current world population (China, India, now Russia again, all the Muslim countries). The more time passes, the less people have heard of us, with each new generation. Our baptisms have flat-lined, despite almost doubling the missionary force (we leveled out at about 1.5x now). More and more Millennials are finding the doctrine and claims of the Church to be irrelevant & unconvincing, and even cult-like. But there does seem to be a fanatical core that might be able to sustain the Church moving forward and the Church has amassed enough resources to be able to float/sustain-itself for a long time. Who knows?

Jesef wrote: ↑June 28th, 2018, 1:19 pm My standard/ruler/definition for Apostle is actually "literal witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ" which would involve touch, not just sight or sound (a vision) - because that would be the only empirical method of validating that Jesus was in a resurrected body, to touch that body, like the 11 in the room, Peter & company by the sea, and the Nephites in 3 Nephi - "handle me and see for a spirit hath not flesh & bones as ye see me have". This is also affirmed by D&C 129. Therefore, none of the current Apostles or Prophets have testified of anything close to this. I will not assume that they have had an experience that they are unwilling to share. A testimony "by the Spirit" alone (i.e. a spiritual only experience) doesn't cut it on this one. KNOWing that Jesus has a body would involve touching His body. Denver Snuffer doesn't meet this bar either, btw, for all the lurking Snufferites still on the forum. I'm not sure Joseph Smith did either. He never shared an account of that specifically. The closest thing is he and Oliver being ordained by John the Baptist and Peter, James, and John. But only Oliver mentions touch, with the John the Baptist encounter. The record of their encounter with Peter, James, and John encounter is basically absent, as far as I can tell.

LukeAir2008 wrote: ↑June 28th, 2018, 1:56 pm We’ve got 15 men running the Church. All different. Different personalities, backgrounds etc. Different levels of devotion, faithfulness, understanding, commitment to Christ. Different views and opinions.

We don’t know what goes on behind closed doors today but we do now know what went on in the 80’s, 70’s, 60’s and earlier because these men and their staff and families kept journals and made notes etc.

There are strong differences of opinions. There are power struggles. Certain individuals wait until the President of the Church is incapacitated before making their move to change policy and exert their influence.

Church leaders succumb to political pressure.

In the early 60’s a majority of the Brethren opposed civil rights for blacks. One exception was Hugh B Brown.

1963, Secretary of the Interior, Stewart Udall, wrote President Hugh B Brown (Counsellor in First Presidency) expressing disgust at the Church’s racial policy.

The NAACP threatened to protest the Church at the 1963 October Church Conference.

Hugh B Brown and N Eldon Tanner met with the NAACP leaders and and Pres Brown promised that a statement would be made at Conference supporting civil rights for blacks.

Pres Brown, acting independently, got help from University of Utah professor Sterling McMurrin in drafting a statement.

When Pres David O McKay heard about the planned protest he agreed to let Hugh B Brown read the statement at Conference but told him he didn’t want it presented as an official First Presidency Statement, but just as part of Brown’s talk.

Pres Brown read the statement, paused, and then continued with his talk, giving the impression that this was an official statement of the First Presidency.
(October 4-6, 1963, in Conference Report)

You’ll note that at no time was God, Christ, the Holy Ghost, Angels or dead Prophets consulted or involved in any of these wranglings.

Finrock wrote: ↑June 28th, 2018, 1:27 pm

Jesef wrote: ↑June 28th, 2018, 1:19 pm My standard/ruler/definition for Apostle is actually "literal witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ" which would involve touch, not just sight or sound (a vision) - because that would be the only empirical method of validating that Jesus was in a resurrected body, to touch that body, like the 11 in the room, Peter & company by the sea, and the Nephites in 3 Nephi - "handle me and see for a spirit hath not flesh & bones as ye see me have". This is also affirmed by D&C 129. Therefore, none of the current Apostles or Prophets have testified of anything close to this. I will not assume that they have had an experience that they are unwilling to share. A testimony "by the Spirit" alone (i.e. a spiritual only experience) doesn't cut it on this one. KNOWing that Jesus has a body would involve touching His body. Denver Snuffer doesn't meet this bar either, btw, for all the lurking Snufferites still on the forum. I'm not sure Joseph Smith did either. He never shared an account of that specifically. The closest thing is he and Oliver being ordained by John the Baptist and Peter, James, and John. But only Oliver mentions touch, with the John the Baptist encounter. The record of their encounter with Peter, James, and John encounter is basically absent, as far as I can tell.

I wouldn't be convinced if a being appeared to me and told me they were Jesus and as evidence they asked me to touch them. I touch people all of the time and it doesn't inform me one bit as to their spiritual identity, status, etc. Any witness that isn't sealed and confirmed by the Spirit, is lacking and not a witness at all. Empirical data is good for observing our physical reality but its not going to inform me if the being that is standing before me and which I can touch is indeed the resurrected Savior. Would Jesus allow me to do some empirical tests to confirm that He does indeed have a resurrected and immortal body?

-Finrock

Jesef wrote: ↑June 28th, 2018, 3:04 pm

Finrock wrote: ↑June 28th, 2018, 1:27 pm

Jesef wrote: ↑June 28th, 2018, 1:19 pm My standard/ruler/definition for Apostle is actually "literal witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ" which would involve touch, not just sight or sound (a vision) - because that would be the only empirical method of validating that Jesus was in a resurrected body, to touch that body, like the 11 in the room, Peter & company by the sea, and the Nephites in 3 Nephi - "handle me and see for a spirit hath not flesh & bones as ye see me have". This is also affirmed by D&C 129. Therefore, none of the current Apostles or Prophets have testified of anything close to this. I will not assume that they have had an experience that they are unwilling to share. A testimony "by the Spirit" alone (i.e. a spiritual only experience) doesn't cut it on this one. KNOWing that Jesus has a body would involve touching His body. Denver Snuffer doesn't meet this bar either, btw, for all the lurking Snufferites still on the forum. I'm not sure Joseph Smith did either. He never shared an account of that specifically. The closest thing is he and Oliver being ordained by John the Baptist and Peter, James, and John. But only Oliver mentions touch, with the John the Baptist encounter. The record of their encounter with Peter, James, and John encounter is basically absent, as far as I can tell.

I wouldn't be convinced if a being appeared to me and told me they were Jesus and as evidence they asked me to touch them. I touch people all of the time and it doesn't inform me one bit as to their spiritual identity, status, etc. Any witness that isn't sealed and confirmed by the Spirit, is lacking and not a witness at all. Empirical data is good for observing our physical reality but its not going to inform me if the being that is standing before me and which I can touch is indeed the resurrected Savior. Would Jesus allow me to do some empirical tests to confirm that He does indeed have a resurrected and immortal body?

-Finrock

D&C 129, Fin. I wasn’t implying that it ONLY be a physical encounter. Imagine something closer to 3 Nephi 11.

Jesef wrote: ↑June 28th, 2018, 3:34 pm No, you can - you just can't be a literal witness of His resurrection unless you've handled/touched him & seen. That's what I believe the original Apostles, both Old & New World, were. The current don't seem to be.

Jesef wrote: ↑June 27th, 2018, 7:44 pm Yeah, didn't you guys participate in the "I'm a Mormon" media campaign? LDS=Mormon and Mormon=LDS, we're owning that nowadays. Get on board!

LukeAir2008 wrote: ↑June 28th, 2018, 2:27 pm So for me A is too gullible, naive, a vanilla version of how ‘Club Mormons’ like to pretend how the Church is run. Jesus meets up with the Prophet every Thursday in the Temple etc etc, All those myths we (I) used to love when I was young and dumb and didn’t know any better. Disney Mormonism.

And B is slightly too apostate for me. The Brethren have the keys and authority and if God does speak to anyone about doctrine or policy or administration, it will be the President of the Church.

I’ve been a member of the Church since 1981 and I don’t remember any new revelations, new doctrine, new scripture etc,

Some good lessons and talks at Conference.

Some good proclamations drafted by Church lawyers (Proclamation on the Family) and good testimonies (The Living Christ).

Dallin H Oaks says he’s never seen Christ or had any miraculous experiences and neither have any of his fellow Apostles. Unfortunately I do believe him.

18 Ask the Father in my name in faith, believing that you shall receive, and you shall have the Holy Ghost, which manifesteth all things which are expedient unto the children of men.

“The Church of Christ is completely organized, and when the man who shall be called upon to divide unto the Saints their inheritances comes, he will be designated by the inspiration of the Lord to the proper authorities of the Church, appointed and sustained according to the order provided for the government of the Church.”— Joseph F Smith

David13 wrote: ↑June 28th, 2018, 3:47 pm

Jesef wrote: ↑June 27th, 2018, 7:44 pm Yeah, didn't you guys participate in the "I'm a Mormon" media campaign? LDS=Mormon and Mormon=LDS, we're owning that nowadays. Get on board!

More than that perhaps if what I heard was true. The church has some type of registered trademark or copyright on that term? It's "owned" by the church? Is that true? Could that be true?
dc

drtanner wrote: ↑June 28th, 2018, 10:06 am

I AM wrote: ↑June 28th, 2018, 10:00 am Just so you all know, I'm not here in the forum to put down the church.
I am here to bring out important truths in our scriptures.
If we don't heed, and respect the word of God, and try to find
out what these scriptures are saying, than we are completely lost.
Our scriptures are THE most important thing we have.
Where would our church be without The Book of Mormon.
All our prophets come and go, but they all stand on the foundation
of our scriptures and those prophets in them.
I can not help it or change what the scriptures are saying.
I didn't write them.
To deny what they are saying would be the biggest mistake one could make.
We as members need to place the upmost importance on them.
They ARE the word of God.
I could just post scriptures, (I practically already do) and then
others couldn't accuse me of putting down the church.
remember, it's not me who's saying these things, it's
the Lord, Nephi, Isaiah.
So if these scriptures make members in the church and in this forum uncomfortable
and they don't like what these scriptures are saying, then maybe it's time
to take a look at why, and wake up to the warnings and what these scriptures
are really saying. Unless we want to do what we have been doing,
denying the truth.
If someone disagrees and has a different opinion about what the scripture
is saying, why don't they just say so.
We shouldn't be hiding from what the scriptures are really saying to us.

It is the mis-interpretation of scripture where you are off, assuming it means something that it doesn’t. But I do like the idea of just posting scripture and letting people make there own judgement.

Jesef wrote: ↑June 28th, 2018, 7:13 pm FAIR Mormon response to this idea that Apostles need to be actual eye-witnesses:
https://www.fairmormon.org/archive/publ ... see-christ

Finrock wrote: ↑June 28th, 2018, 3:07 pm

Jesef wrote: ↑June 28th, 2018, 3:04 pm

Finrock wrote: ↑June 28th, 2018, 1:27 pm

Jesef wrote: ↑June 28th, 2018, 1:19 pm My standard/ruler/definition for Apostle is actually "literal witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ" which would involve touch, not just sight or sound (a vision) - because that would be the only empirical method of validating that Jesus was in a resurrected body, to touch that body, like the 11 in the room, Peter & company by the sea, and the Nephites in 3 Nephi - "handle me and see for a spirit hath not flesh & bones as ye see me have". This is also affirmed by D&C 129. Therefore, none of the current Apostles or Prophets have testified of anything close to this. I will not assume that they have had an experience that they are unwilling to share. A testimony "by the Spirit" alone (i.e. a spiritual only experience) doesn't cut it on this one. KNOWing that Jesus has a body would involve touching His body. Denver Snuffer doesn't meet this bar either, btw, for all the lurking Snufferites still on the forum. I'm not sure Joseph Smith did either. He never shared an account of that specifically. The closest thing is he and Oliver being ordained by John the Baptist and Peter, James, and John. But only Oliver mentions touch, with the John the Baptist encounter. The record of their encounter with Peter, James, and John encounter is basically absent, as far as I can tell.

I wouldn't be convinced if a being appeared to me and told me they were Jesus and as evidence they asked me to touch them. I touch people all of the time and it doesn't inform me one bit as to their spiritual identity, status, etc. Any witness that isn't sealed and confirmed by the Spirit, is lacking and not a witness at all. Empirical data is good for observing our physical reality but its not going to inform me if the being that is standing before me and which I can touch is indeed the resurrected Savior. Would Jesus allow me to do some empirical tests to confirm that He does indeed have a resurrected and immortal body?

-Finrock

D&C 129, Fin. I wasn’t implying that it ONLY be a physical encounter. Imagine something closer to 3 Nephi 11.

I got you. I think I've just reduced it down to the element or the component that matters most. Can I not actually "know" that Jesus lives unless I've physically handled Him with the Spirit attending?

-Finrock

Jesef wrote: ↑June 28th, 2018, 9:29 pm IA, you're a passionate and fanatical scripture-quoter. Do they mean what you're saying they mean? Very possibly not. You're trying to prove a point - that we (as a Church, as a people) are in apostasy, rejected & condemned by God, etc., etc. - you're working backwards from your conclusion and quoting a bunch of dead guys to prove your point. And you obviously feel strongly and right enough to get online and preach about it. Good on ya mate! I think you're whacky and wrong. If we're in "apostasy" - which seems to mean whatever people want it to mean but I'm going to define it as "out of favor with God" - then God, in all fairness, if the scriptural pattern is true (which it may not be), would send us a VERY POWERFUL messenger with a VERY POWERFUL message, and signs following, to validate/confirm such message and messenger - I don't know, like MOSES, or JESUS. You and Denver don't fit any of those criteria so you can be safely and summarily dismissed. Btw, be good & have goodwill, be harmless, be peaceful & peacemaking, be loving, be kind, be gentle, be merciful - and you will receive likewise - that's Karma - that's the Law of God and the Universe.

Jesef wrote: ↑June 28th, 2018, 9:29 pm ..... then God, in all fairness, if the scriptural pattern is true (which it may not be), would send us a VERY POWERFUL messenger with a VERY POWERFUL message, and signs following, to validate/confirm such message and messenger - I don't know, like MOSES, or JESUS.