LDS Freedom Forum

Yeah, didn't you guys participate in the "I'm a Mormon" media campaign? LDS=Mormon and Mormon=LDS, we're owning that nowadays. Get on board!

y'all are foolin yourselves.
"where much is given - much is required"
If you haven't learned by our scriptures that having the restored gospel
is a great responsibility that we haven't been able to live up to,
then you haven't studied the scriptures enough.

"If we are to accept the blessings pronounced to the “Gentiles” in the Book of Mormon, should we not seriously consider the warnings to the “Gentiles” that are pronounced throughout the Book of Mormon? "

"so long as we think of ourselves as the 'good guys'
in whatever scriptural scenario we a studying, for example,
we will learn very little from the scriptures."

"We will not be able to apply their historical lessons to ourselves.
Most important, we will end up with only a hypothetical role or mission to fulfill, one lacking a correct idea of self-identity and purpose.
The scriptures speak of The House of Israel as well as the Gentiles in terms of both good and evil. At the root of the question of identities, therefore, is not who is good and who is bad, but rather what mission God asks us to fulfill."
Avraham Gileadi

When are we as members going to wake up and really
SEE THE TRUTH of what our scriptures are saying !

Wake up my friends - All is NOT well in Zion.
2 Nephi 1:13
13 O that ye would awake; awake from a deep sleep, yea,
even from the sleep of hell,
and shake off the awful chains by which ye are bound,
which are the chains which bind
the children of men, that they are carried away captive down
to the eternal gulf of misery and woe.

2 Nephi 28:21,24,25
21 And others will he pacify,
and lull them away into carnal security,
that they will say: All is well in Zion;
yea, Zion prospereth, all is well—
and thus the devil cheateth their souls,
and leadeth them away carefully down to hell.
24 Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!
25 Wo be unto him that crieth: All is well!

Choose you this day whom ye shall serve.
THE WORD OF GOD. and put that above ALL ELSE.
or just be satisfied with being a member and saying "I follow the prophet"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Feast upon the words of Christ "

"Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things
what ye should do."
2 Nephi 32

D&C 84
44 For you shall live by every word that proceedeth forth from
the mouth of God.

45 For the word of the Lord is truth, and whatsoever is truth is light, and whatsoever is light is Spirit, even the Spirit of Jesus Christ.

Alma 17

2 Now these sons of Mosiah were with Alma at the time the angel first appeared unto him; therefore Alma did rejoice exceedingly to see his brethren; and what added more to his joy, they were still his brethren in the Lord; yea, and they had waxed strong in the knowledge of the truth; for they were men of a sound understanding and they had searched the scriptures diligently, that they might know the word of God.

Yes - we are in apostasy.
Lets start with this

We are stiil under condemnation

WHEN we members stop thinking we are so good and ALWAYS in the right
and can do no wrong, and start heeding the warnings that are in Isaiah and
the Book of Mormon for us, maybe than, and ONLY then
will the Lord lift the condemnation that we have been under for so many years
and come to the truth and be saved from the tribulations
that are coming upon us.
D&C 84:
57 And they shall remain under this condemnation
until they repent and remember the new covenant,
even the Book of Mormon and the former
commandments which I have given them,
not only to say, but to do according to
that which I have written—

"Condemnation Upon the LDS People Has Never Been Lifted"

"In the year 1832, just two years after the time when the LDS Church was established, a scourge and condemnation
was placed upon the current LDS people for their disobedience to the Lord.
This curse and pending judgement has never been lifted:"

Where much is given - much is required.
It's sad that so few members of the church
really READ and understand our scriptures.
Because they really DO show our (the church and members)
shortcomings and warn us of them.
But we do not give heed to them.
And the scriptures also say that we wouldn't.
Why do we always think that the parts in our
scriptures that warn or condemn or say
we are not living up to what we need to,
are always for the other guy, non-members.
Even our great prophet Ezra T. Benson
has said that we were under condemnation
for treating the Book of Mormon lightly.
“If the early Saints were rebuked for treating
the Book of Mormon lightly, are we under any less
condemnation if we do the same?”
(in Conference Report, Oct. 1986, 4;
or Ensign, Nov. 1986, 4–5).

D&C 84:
54 And your minds in times past have been darkened
because of unbelief, and because you have treated
lightly the things you have received—

55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the
whole church under condemnation.

56 And this condemnation resteth upon
the children of Zion, even all.

57 And they shall remain under this condemnation
until they repent and remember the new covenant,
even the Book of Mormon and the former
commandments which I have given them,
not only to say, but to do according to
that which I have written—

Behold, I say unto you, were it not for the transgressions of my
people, speaking concerning the church and not individuals, they
might have been redeemed even now. But behold, they have not
learned to be obedient to the things which I required at their hands,
but are full of all manner of evil, and do not impart of their
substance, as becometh saints, to the poor and afflicted among them.
(D&C 105:2-3.)

Doctrine and Covenants
Section 101:
6 Behold, I say unto you, there were jarrings,
and contentions, and envyings, and strifes,
and lustful and covetous desires among them;
therefore by these things they polluted their inheritances.

now lets talk about our exclusive right to Priesthood keys that will come to an end.

The Lord told Joseph Smith that His Restored Priesthood would
"remain through you and your lineage until the restoration of all things spoken by the mouths of all the holy prophets since the world began."
D&C 86:10
He also said we held our Priesthood jointly with those who held Dispensation Keys before us.
D&C 112: 30 -33
30 For unto you, the Twelve, and those, the First Presidency, who are appointed with you to be your counselors and your leaders, is the power of this priesthood given, for the last days and for the last time, in the which is the dispensation of the fulness of times,

31 Which power you hold, in connection with all those who have received a dispensation at any time from the beginning of the creation;

32 For verily I say unto you, the keys of the dispensation, which ye have received, have come down from the fathers, and last of all, being sent down from heaven unto you.

To Joseph Smith was given the keys of this dispensation, BUT NEVER
did he receive the presiding "keys of this ministry" of the Gospel or
"keys of the kingdom of God" of ALL dispensations from
A.D.30 to Christ's Second Coming.
These keys are held by Peter, James, and John.
Futhermore inasmuch as Peter and James have passed through
and beyond the invisible veil, it places John – the Davidic servant, as the only one
holding these certain presiding keys in the flesh.

D&C 7

1 And the Lord said unto me: John, my beloved, what desirest thou? For if you shall ask what you will, it shall be granted unto you.

2 And I said unto him: Lord, give unto me power over death, that I may live and bring souls unto thee.

3 And the Lord said unto me: Verily, verily, I say unto thee, because thou desirest this thou shalt tarry until I come in my glory, and shalt prophesy before nations, kindreds, tongues and people.

4 And for this cause the Lord said unto Peter: If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? For he desired of me that he might bring souls unto me, but thou desiredst that thou mightest speedily come unto me in my kingdom.

5 I say unto thee, Peter, this was a good desire; but my beloved has desired that he might do more, or a greater work yet among men than what he has before done.

6 Yea, he has undertaken a greater work; therefore I will make him as flaming fire and a ministering angel; he shall minister for those who shall be heirs of salvation who dwell on the earth.

7 And I will make thee to minister for him and for thy brother James; and unto you three I will give this power and the keys of this ministry until I come.

D&C 27

12 And also with Peter, and James, and John, whom I have sent unto you, by whom I have ordained you and confirmed you to be apostles, and especial witnesses of my name, and bear the keys of your ministry and of the same things which I revealed unto them;

13 Unto whom I have committed the keys of my kingdom, and a dispensation of the gospel for the last times; and for the fulness of times, in the which I will gather together in one all things, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth;

Our exclusive right to this Priesthood will therefore terminate at the return of
The lord’s endtime servant.
John the beloved - the Davidic king - the marred servant
and others.

No, neither then nor now. I am first and foremost a Christian.

Jesef wrote: ↑June 27th, 2018, 7:44 pm Yeah, didn't you guys participate in the "I'm a Mormon" media campaign? LDS=Mormon and Mormon=LDS, we're owning that nowadays. Get on board!

Jesef wrote: ↑June 27th, 2018, 7:44 pm Yeah, didn't you guys participate in the "I'm a Mormon" media campaign? LDS=Mormon and Mormon=LDS, we're owning that nowadays. Get on board!

Those of us who’ve been around since the 80’s will remember the Church trying to discourage us from using the generic term ‘Mormon’ and instead use ‘Latter Day Saint’ to describe ourselves.

Yes, they did do a 180 recently and tried to exclusively reclaim the label ‘Mormon’. Too late.

This is the problem with the Church leadership today. They constantly do dumb things. They put an advert for the Book of Mormon in the broadway show Book of Mormon brochure. You’ve got guys dancing around on stage with 15 inch erect penises cursing God and the Church leaders think it’s good to get involved.

Why not advertise the Book of Mormon in porno mags?

and try to get out of this one.

NOT IF but "W H E N "

"At that day WHEN the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel… and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations…" (3 Nephi 16:10)


"The LDS people have a tendency, when reading the BOM, to look at those things spoken of regarding the “Gentiles” in two ways.
One is that all of those things that are of a flattering nature are attributable to the LDS people and that those things which are of a negative nature and perceived as a call to repentance are meant for those other people who are the evil “Gentiles”. This to me is disingenuous."


Latter-day Saint Apostasy
THE APOSTASY CYCLE

If you’ve ever served as a full-time missionary for the Church, you might remember teaching your investigators about “ the pattern of apostasy and restoration.” According to the Church’s “ Guide to Missionary Service,” this concept should normally be taught during an investigator’s very first lesson.

To briefly summarize, investigators are informed that every occurrence of widespread apostasy throughout history is eventually followed by a restoration; and since God never changes, we can know with certainty that He will never deviate from that pattern. In other words, a restoration will always follow an apostasy since God will “ never cease His labors to redeem His posterity.”

Have we failed to realize the full implications of what we’re teaching here? If this “pattern of apostasy and restoration” has consistently repeated itself throughout history, then wouldn’t it be more accurate to call it a “cycle” rather than a “pattern”? If “apostasy and restoration” is indeed a cycle, then not only are we justified in declaring that a restoration will always follow apostasy, but we may also rightly acknowledge the opposite order of events : apostasy apparently always follows a restoration. Think about that for a moment. If we’re justified in believing one portion of this concept, simply because it’s supported by the historical record, then why not the other portion, which is equally supported?

Elder H. Verlan Andersen, who would later serve in the First Quorum of the Seventy, made the following observation:

“No people to whom the gospel has been given have remained faithful to their covenants for more than a few generations. Time after time the Lord has established His Church among a group who have lived His commandments for a few years and then fallen away, thus bringing upon themselves His judgments. This cycle of human folly, which so many prophets have noted, has repeated itself with such consistent regularity, that any group which finds itself to be the favored recipients of the gospel would do well to assume that their own apostasy is certain, and the only question about it is how long it will take. . . . The fact that the Lord has found it necessary to restore His gospel so many times is in itself evidence of the regularity with which apostasy has occurred, because the only thing which will cause the destruction of His Church is the wickedness of its members.


To their credit, the missionaries do acknowledge that in every “dispensation, people eventually used their agency to choose to reject the gospel and then fell into apostasy.”

However, notwithstanding this admission, very few members of the Church seem capable of comprehending the legitimate application of this principle to the present dispensation. “To fail to consider the possibility that the members of the Church are again ‘falling away’ would be to ignore one of the most thoroughly documented lessons of history,” said Elder Andersen.

ORIGINAL Publication & PDF

Also read The Time and Season of The Gentiles

HISTORY WARNS THAT APOSTASY MUST BE EXPECTED

Religious history testifies that, with the single exception of the inhabitants of the City of Enoch, no people to whom the gospel has been given have remained faithful to their covenants for more than a few generations. Time after time the Lord has established His Church among a group who have lived His commandments for a few years and then fallen away, thus bringing upon themselves His judgments. This cycle of human folly which so many prophets have noted, has repeated itself with such consistent regularity that any group which finds itself to be the favored recipients of the gospel would do well to assume that their apostasy is certain, and the only question about it is how long it will take.

Christ, who as the Governor of this world and has the painful duty of punishing transgression, has spoken of the infidelity of the House of Israel and the frequency with which it has rejected Him. Just before He made His appearance to those righteous Nephites and Lamanites who survived the terrible disaster inflicted upon them, He uttered these words of anguish:

O ye people of these great cities which have fallen, who are descendants of Jacob, yea, who are of the house of Israel, how oft have I gathered you as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and have nourished you.

And again, how oft would I have gathered you as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, yea, O ye people of the house of Israel, who have fallen;.. . how oft would I have gathered you as a hen gathereth her chickens, and ye would not. (3 Nephi 10:4–5)

To the Jews, the Lord has said:

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! (Matt. 23:37)

The fact that the Lord has found it necessary to restore His gospel so many times is in itself evidence of the regularity with which apostasy has occurred because the only thing which will cause the destruction of His Church is the wickedness of its members. As the angel told Alma who had been trying to destroy the Lord’s work among the Nephites:

Alma, arise and stand forth, for why persecutest thou the church of God? For the Lord hath said: This is my church, and I will establish it; and nothing shall overthrow it, save it is the transgression of my people. (Mosiah 27:13)

The prophet, Mormon, whose labors as a historian gave him an opportunity to observe the frequency of the righteousness-wickedness-punishment cycle, spoke of it as though it were a law of life which operates as a certain consequence of universal human weakness. His analysis of apostasy and its causes should interest us deeply:

And thus we can behold how false, and also the unsteadiness of the hearts of the children of men; yea, we can see that the Lord in his great infinite goodness doth bless and prosper those who put their trust in him.

O how foolish, and how vain, and how evil, and devilish, and how quick to do iniquity, and how slow to do good, are the children of men. (Hela. 12:1-4)

ARE THE CONDITIONS WHICH ORDINARILY ACCOMPANY APOSTASY PRESENT TODAY?

Do the words of Mormon quoted above have application today? If “ease” and “exceedingly great prosperity” are certain to cause people to “forget the Lord their God,” then the Church is in deep trouble because seldom, if ever, has any group been as prosperous as it is today. Its beginnings were humble enough. Starting in 1830 with an initial membership of six, the Church was persecuted, its property destroyed and confiscated, its leaders slain, and the people finally driven into a forbidding wilderness before they could find a measure of peace. But all that has now changed. After 140 years of growth, membership numbers in the millions, persecution has largely vanished, and instead of ostracism, members are, for the most part, accepted and respected.

These conditions in prior dispensations have been sure signs of weakened faith. To fail to consider the possibility that the members of the Church are again “falling away” would be to ignore one of the most thoroughly documented lessons of history. Especially is this true in light of the fact that the cultural, political, and educational life of Church members has become so deeply and thoroughly involved with that of non-members that they are being overwhelmingly influenced by the “ways of the world.” Through newspapers and magazines, motion pictures and television, schools and lecture halls, and a thoroughly integrated economic system, Church members come into close and continuous contact with those not of their faith.

Some may assume that a “Gentile apostasy” in these latter days cannot occur because Christ’s Church is here to stay this time. They may assume that widespread departure from gospel principles by Church members is contrary to prophecy. While the scriptures do assure us that the Church will continue to exist and be divinely led by prophets of the Lord right up until his Second Coming, they do not state that all, or even a majority of its members will follow those prophets. On the contrary, they foretell extensive, and in some cases, almost total defection from true principles. For example in Chapter 2 herein, we noted the Lord’s prophecy that only one half of that small group he calls “virgins” will avoid being deceived and destroyed. Let us consider other scriptures which discuss this problem.

PROPHECIES REGARDING APOSTASY IN THESE LATTER DAYS

The Book of Mormon contains many predictions of a falling away among the “Gentiles” in the latter days. While the non-Jewish, non-Lamanite members of Christ’s Church may not call themselves Gentiles, the Book of Mormon prophets did. This is clearly shown by the title page of the Nephite scripture which states in the following passage that this book will come forth “by way of the Gentile:”

Wherefore, it is an abridgement of the record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites—Written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel; and also to Jew and Gentile…to come forth in due time by way of the Gentile—… (See also D&C 20:9)

Christ also used the name “Gentile” to identify those through whom the gospel would go to the Lamanites. (3 Nephi 21:2–4)
If Church members from Gentile nations will bear in mind that the term “Gentile” when used in the Book of Mormon includes them,
the prophecies therein will have much greater meaning and be more disturbing.

Some of the predictions clearly refer to members of Christ’s Church. Consider, for example, the following statement which is found among Nephi’s comments regarding latter-day conditions:

They wear stiff necks and high heads; yea, and because of pride, and wickedness, and abominations, and whoredoms, they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men. (2 Nephi 28:14)

Even one who considers himself a “humble follower of Christ” is here warned that he will err “in many instances” because he is “taught by the precepts of men.”

Christ levelled His own charge that iniquity would prevail among Gentile members of His Church in the last days in these words:

At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel… and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations… (3 Nephi 16:10)

That He was referring to members of His Church in this passage is evident not only from the fact that He states that the Gentiles
will sin against His gospel, but also in discussing the possibility of their failing to repent, He refers to them as the “Salt of the earth:”

But if they will not turn unto me, and hearken unto my voice, I will suffer them, yea, I will suffer my people, O house of Israel, that they shall go through among them, and shall tread them down, and they shall be as salt that hath lost its savor, which is thenceforth good for nothing but to be cast out, and to be trodden underfoot of my people, O house of Israel. (3 Nephi 16:15)

When Christ uses the term “the salt of the earth”, He means His covenant people, as the following passage explains:

When men are called unto mine everlasting gospel, and covenant with an everlasting covenant, they are accounted as the salt of the earth and the savor of men;

They are called to be the savor of men; therefore, if that salt of the earth lose its savor, behold, it is thenceforth good for nothing only to be cast out and trodden under the feet of men. (D&C 101:39–40)


There are two other instances of record wherein the Lord told the Nephites that unless the Gentiles repented, they would be trodden down and torn in pieces. (3 Nephi 20:16, 21:12-14) Mormon, who had witnessed the Lamanites exterminate his own people, used almost the same words as did Christ in the quotations referred to above, in predicting the destruction of the unrepentant Gentiles by a remnant of the house of Jacob:

And then, O ye Gentiles, how can ye stand before the power of God, except ye shall repent and turn from your evil ways?

Therefore, repent ye, and humble yourselves before him lest he shall come out in justice against you—lest a remnant of the seed of Jacob shall go forth among you as a lion, and tear you in pieces, and there is none to deliver. (Mormon 5:22, 24)

Then we have the following words of Moroni which state that the Gentiles would become so wicked that unless they repented they would be destroyed:

And this cometh unto you, O ye Gentiles, that ye may know the decrees of God—that ye may repent, and not continue in your iniquities until the fulness come, that ye may not bring down the fulness of the wrath of God upon you as the inhabitants of the land have hitherto done. (Ether 2:11)

It should be emphasized that the above quoted statements are not merely warnings against iniquity but they are prophecies also.
In the clearest of language, they predict that the Gentiles will become so wicked that unless repentance occurs we will be destroyed. Or, as the last scripture quoted states it, our iniquities will become so great that if we “continue” in them, we will be swept off as were our predecessors.

That such a destruction will occur, and that it will consume everyone who fails to repent is indicated in the following words of Nephi:

And now behold, my beloved brethren, I would speak unto you; for I, Nephi, would not suffer that ye should suppose that ye are more righteous than the Gentiles shall be. For behold, except ye shall keep the commandments of God ye shall all likewise perish; and because of the words which have been spoken ye need not suppose that the Gentiles are utterly destroyed. For behold, I say unto you that as many of the Gentiles as will repent are the covenant people of the Lord… (2 Nephi 30:1–2)

So sweeping had been Nephi’s description of Gentile wickedness and destruction that in the above passage, he considered it necessary to warn his readers against assuming that the “Gentiles are utterly destroyed.” As many as will turn from their wicked ways may be spared and numbered with the remnant.

THE FAILURE OF PEOPLE TO RECOGNIZE THE SIGNS OF APOSTASY

In the great majority of cases where apostasy has occurred, it appears that the people became wicked while believing themselves righteous.
This happened time and again to the Children of Israel and the Nephites, and was plainly evident in the case of the Jews at the time of Christ.
There are recorded exceptions to this rule. For example, when the Nephites apostatized immediately prior to Christ’s visit, we are told:

Now they did not sin ignorantly, for they knew the will of God concerning them, for it had been taught unto them; therefore they did wilfully rebel against God. (3 Nephi 6:18)

But the typical situation is described thus by Mormon as he commented on the frequency and rapidity with which a people who have been blessed forsake the Lord:

they do harden their hearts, and do forget the Lord their God, and do trample under their feet the Holy One—yea, and this because of their ease, and their exceedingly great prosperity. (Hela 12:2)

Prophecies regarding the Gentile apostasy of the latter days indicate that it will be the typical one wherein Church members will be led away by false beliefs into evil practices. Nephi had much to say regarding the event. Among other things he predicted that:

1. “Because of pride, and because of false teachers, and false doctrine, their churches have become corrupted..” (2 Nephi 28:12)

2. “the humble followers of Christ” will err in many instances because they are taught by the precepts of men. (2 Nephi 28:14)

3. Some will be lulled away “into carnal security, that they will say: All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth, all is well—and thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell.” (2 Nephi 28:2 1)

4. Others will be deceived into believing that there is no devil and no hell. (2 Nephi 28:22)

5. There will be many who will say:…

Eat, drink and be merry; nevertheless, fear God—he will just in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God. Yea, and there shall be many which shall teach after this manner, false and vain and foolish doctrines… (2 Nephi 28:8–9)
-----------------

Joseph Smith

"Thus after this chosen family (the house of Israel) had rejected Christ and His proposals, the heralds of salvation said to them, 'Lo we turn unto the Gentiles;' and the Gentiles received the covenant, and were grafted in from whence the chosen family were broken off:
but the Gentiles have not continued in the goodness of God, but have departed from the faith that was once delivered to the Saints, and have broken the covenant in which their fathers were established (see Isaiah 24:5); and have become high-minded, and have not feared; therefore, but few of them will be gathered with the chosen family.
Have not the pride, high-mindedness, and unbelief of the Gentiles, provoked the Holy One of Israel to withdraw His Holy Spirit from them,
and send forth His judgments to scourge them for their wickedness? This is certainly the case."
(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 15)

should I go on - the best is still yet to come.

"As we watch General Conference we should look for the spirit of prophecy."
not just listen to nice talks

If Jesus himself has said -

3 Nephi 23:1- 4
1 "And now, behold, I say unto you,
that ye ought to search these things.
Yea, a commandment I give unto
you that ye search these things diligently;
for great are the words of Isaiah."

Why does our prophet and church leaders never talk about Isaiah or quote him ?
Could it be that they don't understand him ? and if they don't understand him, do they really have the spirit of prophecy ?

"Wherefore, hearken, O my people, which are of the house of Israel, and give ear unto my words; for because the words of Isaiah are not plain unto you,
nevertheless they are plain unto all those that are filled with the spirit of prophecy "
(2 Nephi 25:4) in part

all below is a quote

"As we watch General Conference we should look for the spirit of prophecy."

"The scriptures warn us that in the last days there will be prophets who do not prophesy and seers who do not see (Isaiah 30:10). Jesus also warned that there would be false prophets and an abundance of men teaching their own precepts to get gain, so that even the very elect will be deceived (2 Nephi 26:29; JS Matthew 1:22).

As Latter-day Saints we must learn what a true prophet is and we must learn to discern between true and false prophets lest we also be deceived.

The scriptures provide a standard by which we can all judge.
Simply put, a prophet must have the spirit of prophecy in order to be a true prophet. This is the sign.

As we watch General Conference we should look for the spirit of prophecy. We should measure carefully what is being said. We should pray that those who we sustain as prophets will prophesy and speak prophetically because when prophets and seers, prophesy and see, they become a great benefit to their fellow man (Mosiah 8:18). This is the means whereby we can receive salvation.
If men who are called prophets do not have the spirit of prophecy we can know they are false prophets.
Nephi gives us an important bar by which we can measure:

Wherefore, hearken, O my people, which are of the house of Israel, and give ear unto my words; for because the words of Isaiah are not plain unto you, nevertheless they are plain unto all those that are filled with the spirit of prophecy (2 Nephi 25:4).

All prophets will understand the words of Isaiah.
They will also share the testimony of the Savior and of Nephi and others that the words of Isaiah are great!

When’s the last time you heard an LDS prophet give a talk on the words of Isaiah in General Conference?
When Jesus came to the Nephites, He gave them the “commandment to search these things diligently; for great are the words of Isaiah.”
Do the servants of the Lord today emphasize this same commandment?

Today’s prophets write books such as: Counseling With Our Councils,
The Christmas Train, A Future As Bright As Your Faith, To The Rescue, Forget Me Not, and 21 Principles.

The above may be excellent topics,
but why do today’s LDS prophets not speak or write of Isaiah?
Why do they not rejoice in his words?
Why do they not explain what his words mean?
If these words are so great and so relevant to us in our day, why are the so called prophets
not using their “spirit of prophecy” in a way that would render Isaiah’s vital words easier to understand?

Is it possible that these prophets do not understand the words of Isaiah?
If so, can they be true prophets?
Jesus said “ALL who have the spirit of prophecy” will easily understand Isaiah’s words.
They will comprehend them in plainness. If these prophets rely upon trained scholars to understand Isaiah,
would this be evidence that such men are not true prophets?
I leave that for you to judge."

Isaiah's words "shall be of great worth unto them in the last days"
2 Nephi 25

Wherefore, hearken, O my people, which are of the house of Israel, and give ear unto my words; for because the words of Isaiah are not plain unto you,
nevertheless they are plain unto all those that are filled with the spirit of prophecy
(2 Nephi 25:4) in part

7 But behold, I proceed with mine own prophecy, according to my plainness; in the which I know that no man can err; nevertheless, in the days that the prophecies of Isaiah shall be fulfilled men shall know of a surety, at the times when they shall come to pass.

8 Wherefore, they are of worth unto the children of men,
and he that supposeth that they are not,
unto them will I speak particularly, and confine the words
unto mine own people; for I know that they
shall be of great worth unto them in the last days;
for in that day shall they understand them;
wherefore, for their good have I written them.

Mormon 8:
23 Search the prophecies of Isaiah. Behold, I cannot write them. Yea, behold I say unto you, that those saints who have gone before me, who have possessed this land, shall cry, yea, even from the dust will they cry unto the Lord; and as the Lord liveth he will remember the covenant which he hath made with them.
----------------------------------------------------------------

WHY DID THE LORD HIMSELF SAY

"for great are the words of Isaiah" and
gave us a commandment that we search them diligently.
Because they are speaking about us -
the (Gentiles - especially the church today)

3 Nephi 23:1- 4
1 "And now, behold, I say unto you,
that ye ought to search these things.
Yea, a commandment I give unto
you that ye search these things diligently;
for great are the words of Isaiah."

2 "For surely he spake as touching all things
concerning my people which are of the house of Israel;
therefore it must needs be that he must speak
also to the Gentiles."
( Gentiles are us, members, and all of us here today in the U.S. )

3 "And all things that he spake (have been and shall be),
even according to the words which he spake."

4 "Therefore give heed to my words;
write the things which I have told you;
and according to the time and the will
of the Father they shall go forth unto the Gentiles."

3 Nephi 20:11
11 "Ye remember that I spake unto you,
and said that when the words of Isaiah
should be fulfilled—behold they are written,
ye have them before you, therefore search them-"
--------------------------------------------------------------

Isaiah has now been unsealed and brought
to light by the Lord for our understanding in these last days.

Isaiah 44:7
7 "Who predicts what happens as do I, and is the equal of me in
appointing a people from of old as types, foretelling things to come?

Isaiah uses what are called types from the past
to show the future.
What has happened before, will happen again.

ALL THE PROPHECIES OF ISAIAH PERTAIN TO US TODAY
All prophecies in Isaiah are prophecies of the last days.

Referring to our church and the sad condition we are in,
Isaiah begins his book speaking to us,
Ephraim, or the church today.

Isaiah 1:2-5
Description of modern Ephraim
(addressing our church he calls Israel)

2 Hear, O heavens! Give heed, O earth!
Jehovah has spoken:I have reared sons,
brought them up,but they have revolted against me.
3 The ox knows its owner,the @#$ its master’s stall,
but Israel does not know;my people are insensible.
4 Alas, a nation astray,a people weighed down by sin,
the offspring of wrongdoers,perverse children:
they have forsaken Jehovah,they have spurned
the Holy One of Israel,they have lapsed into APOSTASY.
------------------------------------------------------------
Isaiah 24:4,5
4 The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth and fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish.

5 "The earth lies polluted under its inhabitants:
they have transgressed the laws,
changed the ordinances, set at nought the ancient covenant."

explanation:
"Causing these curses is the wickedness of Jehovah’s people, who have altered his “ordinances” or “ritual” and perverted his “laws” or “doctrine” , thereby violating Jehovah’s covenant and rendering it void. Jehovah’s servant, who personifies Jehovah’s covenant (Isaiah 42:6; 49:8), they likewise set at nought (Isaiah 49:7; 50:5-11; 52:14)."

Apostle Joseph Fielding Smith declared that;
“It is the L. D. Saints who have transgressed the laws, change the ordinance, broke the everlasting covenant.”
Joseph Fielding Smith (Deseret News, Church Section, Oct. 17, 1936)

Isaiah 29:9,10 13,14
9 Stay yourselves, and wonder; cry ye out, and cry: they are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink.

10 For the Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.

13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.
-----------------------------------------------------------

Isaiah 9:2 the people "walking in darkness"
(without revelation) refers to the church today.
"Land of the shadow of death" is the U.S.
after the invasion by the beast.

9:2 The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light:
they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death,
upon them hath the light shined.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Did you realize that in the 29th chapter of Isaiah he describes the coming forth
of the original plates of the Book of Mormon and the attitude
of the people against it.

taken from: LDS Seminary Student Study Guide

"Isaiah 29 is one place in the Bible where the Book of Mormon is referred to, even though it is not mentioned by name.
As you read this chapter, look for prophecies of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon and the impact this book will have on the world."

Now if the 29th Chapter of Isaiah refers to our people and nation,
then it is very feasible that the 28th chapter may also refer to us.
If you want a big wake up call please read it !
If you study this 28th chapter of Isaiah
it will reveal that every word applies to our church in these days
and to no other people.
Isaiah cites that this people would be given "precept upon precept;
precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little and there a little."
These identical words, were used by the Prophet Joseph Smith among his closing instructions
to the latter day saints, warning us to go forward not backward. D.C.128:21-22 ; 2Nephi 28:30

Isaiah 28:13 "But the word of the Lord was unto them
precept upon precept, precept upon precept;
line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little;
that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken,
and snared, and taken."

We are still satisfied with the ABC portions of the gospel.
We will not accept the meat portions of the gospel.

Isaiah 28:
9 Whom shall he give instruction?
Whom shall he enlighten with revelation?
Weanlings weaned from milk,those just taken from the breast?
10 For it is but line upon line, line upon line,precept upon precept,
precept upon precept;a trifle here, a trifle there.

The Drunkards of Ephraim
Isaiah28:1 "Woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of Ephraim, whose glorious beauty is a fading flower,
which are on the head of the fat valleys of them that are overcome with wine!"

Salt Lake City is a "fat valley" if I've ever seen one.
It is very sobering to wake up and find the sad condition we are in.
---------------------------------------------------
If these scriptures aren't for us; referring to the church today,
how do you account for D&C 103: 15-18

Are you ready for the reenactment of Egypt ?
These things are sad, but TRUE !

We WILL be in bondage.

D&C 103

15 "Behold, I say unto you, the redemption of Zion must needs come by power;

16 Therefore, I will raise up unto my people a man, who shall lead them like as Moses led the children of Israel.

17 For ye are the children of Israel, and of the seed of Abraham, and ye must needs be led out of bondage by power, and with a stretched-out arm.

18 And as your fathers were led at the first, even so shall the redemption of Zion be."
____________________________

3 Nephi 21
12 And my people who are a remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles, yea, in the midst of them as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep, who, if he go through both treadeth down and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver.

13 Their hand shall be lifted up upon their adversaries, and all their enemies shall be cut off.

14 Yea, wo be unto the Gentiles except they repent; for it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Father, that I will cut off thy horses out of the midst of thee, and I will destroy thy chariots;

15 And I will cut off the cities of thy land, and throw down all thy strongholds;

16 And I will cut off witchcrafts out of thy land, and thou shalt have no more soothsayers;

17 Thy graven images I will also cut off, and thy standing images out of the midst of thee, and thou shalt no more worship the works of thy hands;

18 And I will pluck up thy groves out of the midst of thee; so will I destroy thy cities.

19 And it shall come to pass that all lyings, and deceivings, and envyings, and strifes, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, shall be done away.

20 For it shall come to pass, saith the Father, that at that day whosoever will not repent and come unto my Beloved Son, them will I cut off from among my people, O house of Israel;

21 And I will execute vengeance and fury upon them, even as upon the heathen, such as they have not heard.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Jesus speaks of some signs of His coming.

24 Now these things he spake unto them, concerning the destruction of Jerusalem. And then his disciples asked him, saying, Master, tell us concerning thy coming?

25 And he answered them, and said, In the generation in which the times of the Gentiles shall be fulfilled, there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations with perplexity, like the sea and the waves roaring. The earth also shall be troubled, and the waters of the great deep;

26 Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth. For the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

JST, Luke 21:32. Compare Luke 21:32

All will be fulfilled when the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

32 Verily I say unto you, this generation, the generation when the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled, shall not pass away till all be fulfilled.
------------------------
Interesting the "end time" reversal from
the "Gentiles" (us), then back to The House of Israel.

We had our chance.
The gospel and the power and authority is now
going back to the House of Israel.

Have we forgotten the covenant the Lord made with
The House of Israel ? YES ! but The Lord hasn't.
The Lord WILL remember it !
3 Nephi 16:11,12, 10
11 And then will I remember my covenant which I have made unto my people, O house of Israel, and I will bring my gospel unto them.
12 And I will show unto thee, O house of Israel, that the Gentiles SHALL NOT have POWER over you; but I will remember my covenant unto you, O house of Israel, and ye shall come unto the knowledge of the fulness of my gospel.
10 And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father,
I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them.
(to continue see above verses 11,12 )

Also interesting when the Lord says "my people" he means
"the remnant of Jacob, and also as many of the house of Israel"
and not us, the Gentiles (The church and it's members.)
Why isn't it the other way around - If we are favored and are
the Lord's chosen.?
3 Nephi 21:23 and other scriptures above

Our only hope as Gentiles is to be "numbered with them" -
The House of Israel - and "assist" them - the House of Israel and
the remnant of Jacob in "building a city, which shall be called
the New Jerusalem"

Isaiah 49:3 1 Nephi 21:3
3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant,
O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.

2 Nephi 6:18 Isaiah 49:26
18 "And I will feed them that oppress thee, with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood as with sweet wine; and all flesh shall know that I the Lord am thy Savior and thy Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob."
3 Nephi 21:
12 And my people who are a remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles,
yea, in the midst of them as a lion among the beasts of the forest,
as a young lion among the flocks of sheep, who,if he go through both treadeth down and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver.


D&C 45:28-31
28 And when the times of the Gentiles is come in, a light shall break forth among them that sit in darkness, and it shall be the fulness of my gospel;

29 BUT THEY RECEIVE IT NOT;
for they perceive not the light, and they turn their hearts from me because of the precepts of men.

30 And in that generation shall the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

31 And there shall be men standing in that generation, that shall not pass until they shall see an overflowing scourge; for a desolating sickness shall cover the land.

IA, you are too wordy and your name tag is presumptuous to say the least.

I AM wrote: ↑June 27th, 2018, 9:59 pm -snip-

Puts mod hat on.

I AM, your posts are getting too long to read. Also, this isn't the thread for you to be preaching such things. Explaining your views is fine and indeed expected in a topic such as this, but please do so in one post, don't be preachy about it, and keep it short and to the point. 6 posts that are extremely long is a bit excessive for this purpose, and could in fact be considered spam. Most people on the internet nowadays have a short attention span, so you should tailor your sermons accordingly.

Also, I must remind you that this is a Pro-LDS forum, and blatant criticism of the church is highly discouraged. You seem to have been respectful about this so far, politely explaining your views and backing it up with scripture, and I am grateful for that; your thoughts are welcome and often insightful, when I can actually read them without my eyes drying out. Keep in mind that there is a line that shouldn't be crossed. Please do not cross said line.

Takes mod hat off.

This is an interesting poll. If it is really reflective of the forum it would seem the vast majority here are supportive and sustain the leadership. (and who knows, maybe as everyone casts their vote the #'s will change)The reason I find it interesting (for now anyway) is that it seems that many of the sentiments of those who post more frequently on the forum over and over and who quickly combat anything supportive of modern prophets or the church are those in category C. What does this mean? Is the forum made up of a silent majority? Do those who oppose just have more time on there hands or are driven by something? Have those who disagree just not cast there vote? Thoughts?

drtanner wrote: ↑June 28th, 2018, 12:04 am This is an interesting poll. If it is really reflective of the forum it would seem the vast majority here are supportive and sustain the leadership. (and who knows, maybe as everyone casts their vote the #'s will change)The reason I find it interesting (for now anyway) is that it seems that many of the sentiments of those who post more frequently on the forum over and over and who quickly combat anything supportive of modern prophets or the church are those in category C. What does this mean? Is the forum made up of a silent majority? Do those who oppose just have more time on there hands or are driven by something? Have those who disagree just not cast there vote? Thoughts?

I agree that this is an interesting poll. Could use a bit more variety in options, but I suppose I can make do with what we have... and if not, a mod or the OP can always expand it as needed.

I have been flipping back and forth between A and B quite a bit. I think my opinions sit somewhere firmly between those two options. I already explained what my views are and why in my posts on the first page.

drtanner wrote: ↑June 28th, 2018, 12:04 am This is an interesting poll. If it is really reflective of the forum it would seem the vast majority here are supportive and sustain the leadership. (and who knows, maybe as everyone casts their vote the #'s will change)The reason I find it interesting (for now anyway) is that it seems that many of the sentiments of those who post more frequently on the forum over and over and who quickly combat anything supportive of modern prophets or the church are those in category C. What does this mean? Is the forum made up of a silent majority? Do those who oppose just have more time on there hands or are driven by something? Have those who disagree just not cast there vote? Thoughts?

Maybe you've misjudged people?

-Finrock

Finrock wrote: ↑June 28th, 2018, 8:45 am

drtanner wrote: ↑June 28th, 2018, 12:04 am This is an interesting poll. If it is really reflective of the forum it would seem the vast majority here are supportive and sustain the leadership. (and who knows, maybe as everyone casts their vote the #'s will change)The reason I find it interesting (for now anyway) is that it seems that many of the sentiments of those who post more frequently on the forum over and over and who quickly combat anything supportive of modern prophets or the church are those in category C. What does this mean? Is the forum made up of a silent majority? Do those who oppose just have more time on there hands or are driven by something? Have those who disagree just not cast there vote? Thoughts?

Maybe you've misjudged people?

-Finrock

Maybe, and maybe we have some sheep in wolves clothing? I have felt that the forum is used sometimes as a sounding board for concerns that are not really an accurate portrayal of some individuals true feelings about the church.

Just so you all know, I'm not here in the forum to put down the church.
I am here to bring out important truths in our scriptures.
If we don't heed, and respect the word of God, and try to find
out what these scriptures are saying, than we are completely lost.
Our scriptures are THE most important thing we have.
Where would our church be without The Book of Mormon.
All our prophets come and go, but they all stand on the foundation
of our scriptures and those prophets in them.
I can not help it or change what the scriptures are saying.
I didn't write them.
To deny what they are saying would be the biggest mistake one could make.
We as members need to place the upmost importance on them.
They ARE the word of God.
I could just post scriptures, (I practically already do) and then
others couldn't accuse me of putting down the church.
remember, it's not me who's saying these things, it's
the Lord, Nephi, Isaiah.
So if these scriptures make members in the church and in this forum uncomfortable
and they don't like what these scriptures are saying, then maybe it's time
to take a look at why, and wake up to the warnings and what these scriptures
are really saying. Unless we want to do what we have been doing,
denying the truth.
If someone disagrees and has a different opinion about what the scripture
is saying, why don't they just say so.
We shouldn't be hiding from what the scriptures are really saying to us.

drtanner wrote: ↑June 28th, 2018, 9:14 am

Finrock wrote: ↑June 28th, 2018, 8:45 am

drtanner wrote: ↑June 28th, 2018, 12:04 am This is an interesting poll. If it is really reflective of the forum it would seem the vast majority here are supportive and sustain the leadership. (and who knows, maybe as everyone casts their vote the #'s will change)The reason I find it interesting (for now anyway) is that it seems that many of the sentiments of those who post more frequently on the forum over and over and who quickly combat anything supportive of modern prophets or the church are those in category C. What does this mean? Is the forum made up of a silent majority? Do those who oppose just have more time on there hands or are driven by something? Have those who disagree just not cast there vote? Thoughts?

Maybe you've misjudged people?

-Finrock

Maybe, and maybe we have some sheep in wolves clothing? I have felt that the forum is used sometimes as a sounding board for concerns that are not really an accurate portrayal of some individuals true feelings about the church.

Or, maybe you've misjudged people. Maybe what constitutes a "good" Mormon isn't your favorite mold. Maybe we shouldn't be in the business of determining who is a TBM and who isn't. The criteria is highly subjective, this make such determinations almost always irrelevant, not to mention the inherent self-righteousness that accompanies such judging.

-Finrock

I AM wrote: ↑June 28th, 2018, 10:00 am Just so you all know, I'm not here in the forum to put down the church.
I am here to bring out important truths in our scriptures.
If we don't heed, and respect the word of God, and try to find
out what these scriptures are saying, than we are completely lost.
Our scriptures are THE most important thing we have.
Where would our church be without The Book of Mormon.
All our prophets come and go, but they all stand on the foundation
of our scriptures and those prophets in them.
I can not help it or change what the scriptures are saying.
I didn't write them.
To deny what they are saying would be the biggest mistake one could make.
We as members need to place the upmost importance on them.
They ARE the word of God.
I could just post scriptures, (I practically already do) and then
others couldn't accuse me of putting down the church.
remember, it's not me who's saying these things, it's
the Lord, Nephi, Isaiah.
So if these scriptures make members in the church and in this forum uncomfortable
and they don't like what these scriptures are saying, then maybe it's time
to take a look at why, and wake up to the warnings and what these scriptures
are really saying. Unless we want to do what we have been doing,
denying the truth.
If someone disagrees and has a different opinion about what the scripture
is saying, why don't they just say so.
We shouldn't be hiding from what the scriptures are really saying to us.

It is the mis-interpretation of scripture where you are off, assuming it means something that it doesn’t. But I do like the idea of just posting scripture and letting people make there own judgement.

drtanner wrote: ↑June 28th, 2018, 9:14 am Maybe, and maybe we have some sheep in wolves clothing? I have felt that the forum is used sometimes as a sounding board for concerns that are not really an accurate portrayal of some individuals true feelings about the church.

Personally, I prefer to think of myself more as a wolf in his own clothing.

illyume wrote: ↑June 28th, 2018, 10:43 am

drtanner wrote: ↑June 28th, 2018, 9:14 am Maybe, and maybe we have some sheep in wolves clothing? I have felt that the forum is used sometimes as a sounding board for concerns that are not really an accurate portrayal of some individuals true feelings about the church.

Personally, I prefer to think of myself more as a wolf in his own clothing.

Well, at least you're honest about it.

I can't tell you how much it disappoints me that people still continue to say things like, "we are under condemnation" and "we are in apostasy." I don't know how many times I have voiced this type of thing on this group in sort of a response to types that come on here with this worldview. I don't know where this stuff started. Was it places like AVOW? It is none of our business to condemn the Church, the leadership, or even the membership for their failings in areas that are out of our own control. The Lord is the judge of the hearts of the membership and the hearts of the Brethren. And while I believe that you all have your own free agency, and you can choose what you want, I say that this is all very unproductive and wrong. Why? Because you all have the option to privately believe what you want AND be loyal if you really wanted to be at the same time. I have given the analogy time and time again to the idea of rendering unto Ceasar, and then you get to keep the rest of your money, or like paying tithing, and you get to keep the rest. Give the brethren their due, which is your loyalty. This is your ten percent. This isn't much of a sacrifice. Leave it to them to lead. Don't tell them how. If you don't like the direction, or disagree, then be patient and pray for them to get INSTITUTIONAL level revelation to change what you don't like. Don't sit here and bellyache about how the brethren aren't doing it the way you would like them to, so in your perception, they are in apostasy. If you think they are astray from YOUR ideal course, the last thing you should concern yourself with what THEY decide, but rather, pray for the Lord to intervene so that he CORRECTS what they decide. Don't deny that they have the keys, but rather, pray for a change. Do what is within your power, and stop setting yourselves up with ENMITY toward the brethren, kicking against the pricks against the Lord's anointed.

If there were someone in your family that is not doing things as you would hope, and you have the pure love of Christ toward them, you would pray for them right? You wouldn't sit there and bellyache about them all day long. But rather, you would recognize that their agency is out of your personal control, and you would love them in spite of what you don't like about how they have used their agency.

Those that continually say we are astray as a Church and that the Brethren are off base are continually finding fault with the Lord's anointed and speaking evil, to the loss of the Holy Ghost in THEIR OWN lives. Then instead, do what is in your power to pray for things to get on track, and LOVE the brethren instead of trying to DESTROY what they are trying to accomplish by setting yourselves up as an obstruction to the progress of the Church. Stop worrying about what the Church does as an institution, and think about what you can personally do to build Zion and to Gather Israel, and let the Lord sort out the mess that is or is not the Institution, depending on your point of view.

I personally do not see the institution as a mess, but there are things that I wish would change. This has nothing to do with my loyalty. I am trying to be patient, and give these people their due. What kind of Mormon am I? I am just a true blue Mormon, but I have my eyes wide open, having waded in the deep waters, and knowing all the skeletons in the closet.

Durzan wrote: ↑June 28th, 2018, 10:53 am

illyume wrote: ↑June 28th, 2018, 10:43 am

drtanner wrote: ↑June 28th, 2018, 9:14 am Maybe, and maybe we have some sheep in wolves clothing? I have felt that the forum is used sometimes as a sounding board for concerns that are not really an accurate portrayal of some individuals true feelings about the church.

Personally, I prefer to think of myself more as a wolf in his own clothing.

Well, at least you're honest about it.

I find honesty's a pretty good quality to hang onto.

Plus, wolves are cooler than sheep anyway. Why would I want to pretend to be a sheep?

illyume wrote: ↑June 28th, 2018, 11:07 am

Durzan wrote: ↑June 28th, 2018, 10:53 am

illyume wrote: ↑June 28th, 2018, 10:43 am

drtanner wrote: ↑June 28th, 2018, 9:14 am Maybe, and maybe we have some sheep in wolves clothing? I have felt that the forum is used sometimes as a sounding board for concerns that are not really an accurate portrayal of some individuals true feelings about the church.

Personally, I prefer to think of myself more as a wolf in his own clothing.

Well, at least you're honest about it.

I find honesty's a pretty good quality to hang onto.

Plus, wolves are cooler than sheep anyway. Why would I want to pretend to be a sheep?

Don’t pretend; be! Because Christ likens his saints unto sheep! And according to Huey Lewis and the News, it’s hip to be square.

Jesef wrote: ↑June 27th, 2018, 6:17 pm See I would vote (A) with the following explanations:
> Member of church: YES
> Believe that church and leaders have keys: YES, but what do you mean by "keys", how would you define that? We might define it differently. I don't think the keys mean what many people think or believe they do. If you mean, "the authority to direct how Priesthood Authority is used in the Church", which includes directing how/who/when/what Priesthood ordinances are performed, callings, organization, etc. Then YES. Do these keys apply to the whole world? Probably not in the way most LDS think. They really don't affect most of the people in the world or most of world history even.
> Believe that 15 are true apostles or prophets of God, or at least Pres. Nelson is a true prophet of God: YES, but again, we might have different definitions of the scope and actual significance of what these titles/positions/callings mean in the grand scheme of things. You may think this is a big game of Follow the Leader/Prophet and that your eternal salvation depends on how closely and diligently you follow the living men filling these roles. You may believe that "Prophet" is akin to representative of God - like the way you treat the Prophet is the way God considers you treating God. If so, I believe you are overestimating their value or significance. I believe Prophets means Teachers, Servants of God, not Rulers, Masters, Demi-Gods - I don't believe they need to be venerated or worshipped or kowtowed to, stood for, hailed, praised, or testified of as if they are anything more than inspired humans. They don't have super-powers or super-spiritual gifts. I think we've gone WAY overboard in our prophet-worship in this Church. It's borderline ridiculous. No wonder the Brethren can't live up to these fantastic expectations. They aren't visiting with Jesus or heavenly angels every week, or going around healing the sick or raising the dead or working miracles. None that I've seen my whole 40+ years in the Church.

After looking a little more closely at the categories and descriptions, I'm changing my vote to B, because A just seems too "true blue", everything is hunky-dory/all-is-well, naive.

B. Member of church; church and leaders have keys, but leaders are prophets and apostles in title only. Still authorized to direct church.

I believe the current Apostles and Prophet are much more "normal" than some of our culture believes. I think they are often inspired, but I don't think they are miraculous or super-powered, like I said. They do not display any of the supernatural spiritual gifts, in all my 40+ years of experience with them. Their decisions seem well-considered, but very conservative rather than brave or bold, and I think they've been wrong on occasion. They are not publishing any new revelations (direct quotations from the Lord), nor are they sharing any visions or prophecies (again, in the name of the Lord) - and these would be the literal interpretations for Prophet (prophecy), Seer (sees, visions), and Revelator (revelations). Haven't seen any of that for literally decades now. Even 1978 we did not get a real published revelation dictated by the Lord (like Joseph Smith). I admire that they do things unanimously. But, for example, David O. McKay said, in a private letter to one of the Bennions (I got this directly from one of the descendants, they've kept this letter in their family) back in the 1960's/70's civil rights movement era, that the Brethren/15 had to wait for 2 Apostles to die in order to achieve unanimity on the Race/Priesthood issue. That says a lot. And then guys like McConkie publishing all their retractions for having taken adamantly strong positions on the issue. Brigham Young's statement that they would not receive Priesthood or Temple blessings until the Millennium or until all the sons of Able/Seth had received them first was the oft-quoted prooftext - totally wrong - or at least totally contradicted.

I think it's possible that the LDS/Mormon Church is a bubble, that it is not actually intended to reach every soul on earth. Reality seems to affirm this - as we currently comprise less than 0.01% of the population, and we are still barred from even proselyting to over half the current world population (China, India, now Russia again, all the Muslim countries). The more time passes, the less people have heard of us, with each new generation. Our baptisms have flat-lined, despite almost doubling the missionary force (we leveled out at about 1.5x now). More and more Millennials are finding the doctrine and claims of the Church to be irrelevant & unconvincing, and even cult-like. But there does seem to be a fanatical core that might be able to sustain the Church moving forward and the Church has amassed enough resources to be able to float/sustain-itself for a long time. Who knows?

Jesef wrote: ↑June 28th, 2018, 11:29 am
I think it's possible that the LDS/Mormon Church is a bubble, that it is not actually intended to reach every soul on earth. Reality seems to affirm this - as we currently comprise less than 0.01% of the population, and we are still barred from even proselyting to over half the current world population (China, India, now Russia again, all the Muslim countries). The more time passes, the less people have heard of us, with each new generation. Our baptisms have flat-lined, despite almost doubling the missionary force (we leveled out at about 1.5x now). More and more Millennials are finding the doctrine and claims of the Church to be irrelevant & unconvincing, and even cult-like. But there does seem to be a fanatical core that might be able to sustain the Church moving forward and the Church has amassed enough resources to be able to float/sustain-itself for a long time. Who knows?

This is why I consider myself a reformationist; something has deeply changed since the early days of the Church. We are not the people we should be, and are shadows of our former selves in a lot of ways. Yes, we have made some good changes over the past few years, but at what cost? Why are we in the midst of Babylon when we should be the City of Light on the Hill for all to see? What happened? We need to get back whatever we lost. We need direct revelations from the Lord, and we need our leaders to not just stand firm, but be exceedingly bold and to push forward towards the place where God wants us. The floodgates of Revelation and Miracles should be overflowing, not reduced to a mere trickle!

President Monson and President Nelson have made some small and important changes... but more needs to happen. Nevertheless it will happen on the Lord's time, and if our leaders are listening and following the spirit, then they will slowly start to move the church in that direction, even though it takes time. If they are not listening and following the Spirit, then in the Lord's own due time will He raise a Prophet who will do so, and will do so with much force and boldness.