LDS Freedom Forum

Jesef wrote: ↑June 29th, 2018, 2:49 pm TI, why would it be difficult for Jesus to appear bodily to anyone in our day to give them a literal witness that He is resurrected - like 3 Nephi 11. Please don't give an answer that equates to: it's too difficult (for Him), i.e. He's not powerful enough, or it would destroy the Earth, or anything else that basically says God is not Omnipotent.

JaredBees wrote: ↑June 29th, 2018, 8:52 pm

Jesef wrote: ↑June 29th, 2018, 2:49 pm TI, why would it be difficult for Jesus to appear bodily to anyone in our day to give them a literal witness that He is resurrected - like 3 Nephi 11. Please don't give an answer that equates to: it's too difficult (for Him), i.e. He's not powerful enough, or it would destroy the Earth, or anything else that basically says God is not Omnipotent.

I personally believe "in the flesh" represents having all of our senses activated during the experience. All these senses are activated profoundly for those who abide with him in their Spirit. I saw in vision my deceased father right after he passed be embraced by our glorified Savior. Trust me-- the experience was as real / more real for him and his senses than any sensory experience he had in the flesh. The attendant spiritual gifts that are available to one who receives their second comforter experience is more than sufficient to know their experience was the closest thing to true- pure- reality one could ever receive.

TrueIntent wrote: ↑June 29th, 2018, 3:53 pm

Jesef wrote: ↑June 29th, 2018, 3:38 pm Based on the evidence, A LOT of it, I would have to conclude that Jesus doesn't do this - appear to people in his resurrected body. Don't know why. But I can't find a single credible account. I even think that the encounters with John the Baptist & Peter, James, & John (which are uncorroborated for all intents and purposes) were "spiritual" and not tangible. In other words, I think this is a false expectation that leads to ultimate disappointment. D&C 129 might just be hypothetical nonsense, for all I can tell (not a shred of evidence supporting it) in nearly 200 years of Restoration history, millions of good people all seeking it too. Every spiritual experience I've learned of, or experienced, has been spiritual only, sometimes very lucid, even OBE (out of body experience), but still intangible, not physical. Sorry, but that's what I've come up with in decades of research and seeking and searching. I don't know why. There is no modern, physical evidence of resurrection.

Yeah, that’s whAt I’ve concluded as well but still hoping that Someone knows more that I do (cuz everyone is teaching the opposite, obviously without “knowing”. So the next question is, do we actually take up physical resurrected (flesh) bodies? Does that happen at a “last day”? Or is this all a spiritual glory and what does Paul mean when he says Christ comes in the flesh, is it “our own” flesh? Meaning Tangible “spiritual” witnesses in our own flesh, like a vision or out of body /minds eye experience?

I’m trying to wrap my head around this. Your thoughts?

TrueIntent wrote: ↑June 29th, 2018, 11:07 pm Another question I would have is, what does the scripture mean not a hair of our head would be lost, and what’s all this stuff about the last trumpet sounding and being changed in a twinkling is an eye and “we will not all sleep” as Paul says, and a body being removed from a tomb. I believe in spiritual symbols but if you remove the physical part of the resurrection, the. Religion becomes a big joke for me.....stringing us along to lead us to an end where where nobody reAlly understands why we’re here because we can also progress spiritually on the other side. Sorry....this is a topic I have pondered heavily, and while pondering the idea that there was no physical body, left me wondering why I even exist in the flesh. It’s a very dark place mentally for me because of what I have suffered to know god.

Also, with all the Mormons who leave the church and go atheist, this is part of why I am frustrated with leadership. They are supposed to bearing this spiritual burden of going to God and asking these questions....to understand scripture and his spirit, well it’s a heavy burden to obtain witnesses (hence Morley farm and early church leaders dealing with the antichrist/man of sin revealed. ). If I remember correctly, they were also trying to raise a dead child at Morley farm. These guys labored to obtain witnesses. It’s scary when you’ve been taught God is so cut and dry, and then you start asking questions and the people who have witnesses don’t have the same experience as what Christians and Mormons claim. So I say, what is truth? Are the scriptures, as the Book of Mormon claims, not plain?

Heavy topic for me guys. I’d like thoughts.

Finrock wrote: ↑June 30th, 2018, 12:00 am

TrueIntent wrote: ↑June 29th, 2018, 3:53 pm

Jesef wrote: ↑June 29th, 2018, 3:38 pm Based on the evidence, A LOT of it, I would have to conclude that Jesus doesn't do this - appear to people in his resurrected body. Don't know why. But I can't find a single credible account. I even think that the encounters with John the Baptist & Peter, James, & John (which are uncorroborated for all intents and purposes) were "spiritual" and not tangible. In other words, I think this is a false expectation that leads to ultimate disappointment. D&C 129 might just be hypothetical nonsense, for all I can tell (not a shred of evidence supporting it) in nearly 200 years of Restoration history, millions of good people all seeking it too. Every spiritual experience I've learned of, or experienced, has been spiritual only, sometimes very lucid, even OBE (out of body experience), but still intangible, not physical. Sorry, but that's what I've come up with in decades of research and seeking and searching. I don't know why. There is no modern, physical evidence of resurrection.

Yeah, that’s whAt I’ve concluded as well but still hoping that Someone knows more that I do (cuz everyone is teaching the opposite, obviously without “knowing”. So the next question is, do we actually take up physical resurrected (flesh) bodies? Does that happen at a “last day”? Or is this all a spiritual glory and what does Paul mean when he says Christ comes in the flesh, is it “our own” flesh? Meaning Tangible “spiritual” witnesses in our own flesh, like a vision or out of body /minds eye experience?

I’m trying to wrap my head around this. Your thoughts?

I'm not exactly sure how this factors in but I feel like its important. When we are resurrected and exalted our spirit and body become one. What does that actually mean. How does spirit and flesh become one? And, if they are one, would a resurrected, exalted being be distinguishable from a spirit being?

-Finrock

Finrock wrote: ↑June 30th, 2018, 12:00 am

TrueIntent wrote: ↑June 29th, 2018, 3:53 pm

Jesef wrote: ↑June 29th, 2018, 3:38 pm Based on the evidence, A LOT of it, I would have to conclude that Jesus doesn't do this - appear to people in his resurrected body. Don't know why. But I can't find a single credible account. I even think that the encounters with John the Baptist & Peter, James, & John (which are uncorroborated for all intents and purposes) were "spiritual" and not tangible. In other words, I think this is a false expectation that leads to ultimate disappointment. D&C 129 might just be hypothetical nonsense, for all I can tell (not a shred of evidence supporting it) in nearly 200 years of Restoration history, millions of good people all seeking it too. Every spiritual experience I've learned of, or experienced, has been spiritual only, sometimes very lucid, even OBE (out of body experience), but still intangible, not physical. Sorry, but that's what I've come up with in decades of research and seeking and searching. I don't know why. There is no modern, physical evidence of resurrection.

Yeah, that’s whAt I’ve concluded as well but still hoping that Someone knows more that I do (cuz everyone is teaching the opposite, obviously without “knowing”. So the next question is, do we actually take up physical resurrected (flesh) bodies? Does that happen at a “last day”? Or is this all a spiritual glory and what does Paul mean when he says Christ comes in the flesh, is it “our own” flesh? Meaning Tangible “spiritual” witnesses in our own flesh, like a vision or out of body /minds eye experience?

I’m trying to wrap my head around this. Your thoughts?

I'm not exactly sure how this factors in but I feel like its important. When we are resurrected and exalted our spirit and body become one. What does that actually mean. How does spirit and flesh become one? And, if they are one, would a resurrected, exalted being be distinguishable from a spirit being?

-Finrock

Durzan wrote: ↑June 30th, 2018, 7:07 am

Finrock wrote: ↑June 30th, 2018, 12:00 am

TrueIntent wrote: ↑June 29th, 2018, 3:53 pm

Jesef wrote: ↑June 29th, 2018, 3:38 pm Based on the evidence, A LOT of it, I would have to conclude that Jesus doesn't do this - appear to people in his resurrected body. Don't know why. But I can't find a single credible account. I even think that the encounters with John the Baptist & Peter, James, & John (which are uncorroborated for all intents and purposes) were "spiritual" and not tangible. In other words, I think this is a false expectation that leads to ultimate disappointment. D&C 129 might just be hypothetical nonsense, for all I can tell (not a shred of evidence supporting it) in nearly 200 years of Restoration history, millions of good people all seeking it too. Every spiritual experience I've learned of, or experienced, has been spiritual only, sometimes very lucid, even OBE (out of body experience), but still intangible, not physical. Sorry, but that's what I've come up with in decades of research and seeking and searching. I don't know why. There is no modern, physical evidence of resurrection.

Yeah, that’s whAt I’ve concluded as well but still hoping that Someone knows more that I do (cuz everyone is teaching the opposite, obviously without “knowing”. So the next question is, do we actually take up physical resurrected (flesh) bodies? Does that happen at a “last day”? Or is this all a spiritual glory and what does Paul mean when he says Christ comes in the flesh, is it “our own” flesh? Meaning Tangible “spiritual” witnesses in our own flesh, like a vision or out of body /minds eye experience?

I’m trying to wrap my head around this. Your thoughts?

I'm not exactly sure how this factors in but I feel like its important. When we are resurrected and exalted our spirit and body become one. What does that actually mean. How does spirit and flesh become one? And, if they are one, would a resurrected, exalted being be distinguishable from a spirit being?

-Finrock

I will explain this mystery unto you Finrock: You see, our bodies actually have a mind and a consciousness of their own that is separate from our spirits. They cannot exist without a spirit to animate them, and yet they think, they act, they ponder, they decide, all without the input of said spirit. It is worth noting that while their personalities are based on that of the spirit that inhabits them, their experiences in this life are all they know and they are highly influenced by the physical instincts and impulses that we call the "natural man." Thus, the bodies have their personalities shaped and developed more significantly during our mortal life, making the body's personality significantly different from that of the spirit's. The spirits of most people are "inactive" or "dormant" during the majority of our mortal life, and rarely give our bodies that much input. Our spirits are aware of whats going on, and if you were to ask them about it, they would probably have some commentary, but rarely to the actively take control of the body. Thus our physical bodies are left with ghosts of thoughts and impressions (stuff we call the Light of Christ the impulse to do good, our conscience, etc) that our bodies can choose to act upon or react to.

However, when your spirit is active, it can communicate and direct the body more efficiently than the mortal consciousness can. The perceptions and thoughts of a spirit are far greater and more comprehending than the mortal body, giving it distinct advantages. However, a spirit can only exert such control for a limited period of time, before it tires (for lack of a better term). The veil prevents the mortal mind from fully connecting and comprehending the thought processes and information contained within our spirits, and even when the active spirit is in direct control of the body, information moves slower and can get lost in transition from spirit to body. This causes strain on the spirit. Although we cannot pierce the veil and connect with our spirit completely in this life... if we are lucky, we catch glimpses of those thoughts when our spirit is active.

Thus, you have two consciousnesses inside a body, each with their own perceptions, ideals, and points of view. Only by reconciling those differences, and getting both your body and spirit to work together can one achieve exaltation and Eternal Life. Learning how to restrain your natural impulses and listen to the Holy Spirit is only one just one part of how to accomplish this. An important part to be sure, but only just a part. This is what it means for our mind and body to fully be one.

In the resurrection, our spirits and bodies are effectively fused into one essence, for all intents and purposes never again to be separated. If the consciousness of both our minds and spirits are not united, then we are hampered by the arguments and disagreements between the body and spirit, thus limiting our ability to progress. Since physical bodies are more adaptable in mortality than when resurrected, this means that our mortal life is the time to align the will of our bodies with our spirit, and then align their combined will with that of Heavenly Father.

Luke 24:36 ¶ And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.

38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?

D&C 100:5 Therefore, verily I say unto you, lift up your voices unto this people; speak the thoughts that I shall put into your hearts, and you shall not be confounded before men;

Romans 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Alma 36:4 And I would not that ye think that I know of myself—not of the temporal but of the spiritual, not of the carnal mind but of God.

D&C 67:10 And again, verily I say unto you that it is your privilege, and a promise I give unto you that have been ordained unto this ministry, that inasmuch as you strip yourselves from jealousies and fears, and humble yourselves before me, for ye are not sufficiently humble, the veil shall be rent and you shall see me and know that I am—not with the carnal neither natural mind, but with the spiritual.

11 For no man has seen God at any time in the flesh, except quickened by the Spirit of God.

12 Neither can any natural man abide the presence of God, neither after the carnal mind.

D&C 6:16 Yea, I tell thee, that thou mayest know that there is none else save God that knowest thy thoughts and the intents of thy heart.

D&C 137:9 For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts.

Luke 11:38 And when the Pharisee saw it, he marvelled that he had not first washed before dinner.

39 And the Lord said unto him, Now do ye Pharisees make clean the outside of the cup and the platter; but your inward part is full of ravening and wickedness.

40 Ye fools, did not he that made that which is without make that which is within also?

marc wrote: ↑June 30th, 2018, 8:47 am One final thought. We tend to think of our hearts as the beating muscle in our chest that pumps blood throughout our bodies. But a heart has another definition:

2.
the central or innermost part of something.
"right in the heart of the city"
synonyms: center, middle, hub, core, nucleus, eye, bosom
"the heart of the city"

Our mortal Savior knew this.

Luke 11:38 And when the Pharisee saw it, he marvelled that he had not first washed before dinner.

39 And the Lord said unto him, Now do ye Pharisees make clean the outside of the cup and the platter; but your inward part is full of ravening and wickedness.

40 Ye fools, did not he that made that which is without make that which is within also?

marc wrote: ↑June 30th, 2018, 8:47 am One final thought. We tend to think of our hearts as the beating muscle in our chest that pumps blood throughout our bodies. But a heart has another definition:

2.
the central or innermost part of something.
"right in the heart of the city"
synonyms: center, middle, hub, core, nucleus, eye, bosom
"the heart of the city"

Our mortal Savior knew this.

Luke 11:38 And when the Pharisee saw it, he marvelled that he had not first washed before dinner.

39 And the Lord said unto him, Now do ye Pharisees make clean the outside of the cup and the platter; but your inward part is full of ravening and wickedness.

40 Ye fools, did not he that made that which is without make that which is within also?

Jesef wrote: ↑June 29th, 2018, 1:29 pm Like my wife's former Stake President in Dillon, MT, who was caught in an FBI sting operation for luring underaged teenage girls into sex & even rape? I'm going with that calling, approved by the FP/12 even, was not inspired. That was a miss. We are not perfect & neither are the Brethren, not in any way. Stop pretending.

https://mtstandard.com/news/national/fo ... 7bbbf.html

Former Mormon stake president sentenced for online sex soliciting

BOISE, Idaho (AP) — A former Mormon stake president from Dillon was sentenced to three years and five months in prison for soliciting someone he believed to be a teenage girl for sex on the Internet and then traveling to Boise to meet her.

U.S. District Judge Edward J. Lodge sentenced Clayton R. Hildreth, 52, on Tuesday.

Hildreth pleaded guilty in October to a charge of interstate travel with intent to have sex with a minor.

Lodge also ordered Hildreth to serve seven years of supervised release after he leaves prison. Lodge said he hopes the aftermath of Hildreth's "dark side" will stop others from committing similar crimes.

During the sentencing hearing, prosecuting attorney Jim Peters reminded the court that Hildreth "portrayed himself as a community leader, a father figure of his church who stood before congregations and preached about living a virtuous life. At the same time, he pursued the thrill of sexual gratification at the expense of a child, without regard for the effect that might have on the child or the people in his community who looked to him for leadership.'' Hildreth's wife, Christine, two sons, father and a longtime friend urged the judge to be lenient with his sentence, saying what he did was out of character, according to an article in The Idaho Statesman newspaper.

People cried as they spoke and tearfully hung their heads as they listened to the court proceedings. Hildreth's wife said there were signs something was wrong with her husband, but no one knew what troubled him.

"I never thought in the 30 years I've lived with this man he would have done what he did," she said.

Hildreth told Lodge that he gets sick when he reads what he wrote during his Internet chats with who he believed was a 14-year-old girl. He cried and often struggled to speak about what he called "a nightmare that won't go away," according to the Statesman article.

Hildreth was excommunicated from his church after his arrest. He was the stake president of the Butte chapter of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints at the time of his arrest.

"I want you to know I have no compulsions to go back to the way I was before," Hildreth said. "I'm afraid of it." Prosecutors said in May 2004, Hildreth, using the screen name "Sexy Montana Gentleman,'' started an Internet relationship with an undercover Boise police officer posing as a 14-year-old girl. Hildreth moved the conversations from a public chat room to private instant messaging and initiated discussions of sex.

During more than a dozen instant messaging sessions over the next six weeks, Hildreth talked about his previous encounters with young girls. He told the victim he was 39 years old and made arrangements to meet the victim. On two occasions he sent her live, sexually explicit images of himself.

On June 23, Hildreth drove to Boise and appeared at what he believed was the girl's stepmother's home, at a time of day when he believed the stepmother would be at work. Prosecutors said he was carrying three condoms, a gift of thong underwear and a digital camera.

He was arrested by Boise police.