San Francisco Gay Men's Chorus performs with Mormon Tabernacle Choir

[gardener4life]

Every soul straight or gay deserves a chance at salvation!

No . . . every soul deserves a chance at salvation and the highest glory, exaltation can only be achieved within the bounds of a heterosexual union.

Let's think about this, do you REALLY think in the hereafter that there will be individuals who are homosexual who are in the Celestial Kingdom, i.e. there will be resurrected men walking around wanting to have sex with other men in the Celestial Kingdom?? Does that make any sense at all?

The great lie being promulgated is the homosexual means that is just the way you are and you "can't" change-that is a load of crap and it is anti-Christ, b/c Christ specifically COMMANDS us to change.

I thought I might comment on this. People sometimes have a thought and mean well but then they don't ask the Lord to grant his spirit and to grant discernment of Spirit.

Thanks to gridle for his comments. And to others asking for obedience as a primary factor of receiving blessings is fair; especially the obedience to chastity.

I looked at Mcox's comment and thought I might re-translate it for you.

Mcox said; 'Every soul straight or gay deserves a chance at salvation!

I would reword this using the spirit of discernment for you. The correct truthful version should be something more like; 'Every soul regardless of nation, kindred, tongue, and people deserves a chance to choose accept or reject salvation & progression through the gospel principles of faith, repentance, obedience, and enduring to the end.

Now I just realized something very cool in the scriptures.

The Book of Mormon front pages quote, '...every nation, kindred, tongue, and people...' will have a chance to accept the Gospel. Isn't that beautiful? Well that '...every nation, kindred, tongue, and people...' can include and definitely includes those that identify themselves with health conditions like diabetes, those that need healing, refugees even, and even the gays and queers.

"...that they may know the covenants of the Lord, that they are not cast off forever—And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting himself unto all nations—And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment-seat of Christ."

So covenants are in there. Covenants are all based with the sacrament as the cornerstone of your covenant. And the Sacrament is about giving up our old life as sinners and repenting before God like the lepers that Jesus healed. But not trying to stay as a leper. We see the wording to, 'condemn not the things of God' and also references to the Tower of Babel. Wonder why that is...could it be to Mormon and Moroni that seeing our day looked like a giant Tower of Babel? And notice the phrase, 'that ye may be found spotless at the judgment-seat of Christ'.

Isn't that beautiful?

But to be spotless we have to be willing to change, repent, and obey. We have to become a new person. Paul claimed to no longer be Saul. He didn't seek out the things of his old life as Saul. He went forward as a changed man never looking back like Lot leaving Sodom (but different problems).

[David13]

I think we've over-reacted, or at least me. This is
Just extending a hand of fellowship to some of God's children, who's worth is the same as everyone else's.
I still have some very negative thoughts about it, but
They are fading. Let's see it for what it is.

What it is is a lack of repentance. A total lack of remorse. A belief that the sin is not a sin, and that wallowing in the sin is ... good. When it's truly evil.
The homosexuals have suffered due to their own unwise choices. They bask in pride of their sins.

It's evil upon evil.
dc

[Finrock]

I think we've over-reacted, or at least me. This is
Just extending a hand of fellowship to some of God's children, who's worth is the same as everyone else's.
I still have some very negative thoughts about it, but
They are fading. Let's see it for what it is.

A voice of reason.

-Finrock

[Robin Hood]

I think we've over-reacted, or at least me. This is
Just extending a hand of fellowship to some of God's children, who's worth is the same as everyone else's.
I still have some very negative thoughts about it, but
They are fading. Let's see it for what it is.

What it is is a lack of repentance. A total lack of remorse. A belief that the sin is not a sin, and that wallowing in the sin is ... good. When it's truly evil.
The homosexuals have suffered due to their own unwise choices. They bask in pride of their sins.

It's evil upon evil.
dc

This is where we need a double or super thanks button.

[David13]

Finrock,
It is when you seek them out because of them identifying as their politically popular sin.
Otherwise, the motab would be singing with pedophiles, rapists, adulterers, thieves etc. - but they’re not.
To them, homosexuality is a “special” sin worthy of prideful praise - which the others are not.
The church is becoming more and more worldly and thus less godly.

As a missionary, I was actively seeking out any sinners that would listen to me. I hung out with them, played games with them, believed the best of them, respected them, and tried to love them, even when some of their conduct/actions/behaviors/thoughts/ideas were gross to me or made me uncomfortable. I put all of my prejudices aside (or at least I tried to) for the moment with the hope of being able to connect with them on a common level, whatever that commonality might be.

In general, people don't care how much you know (or even what you know) until they know how much you care. We can't even hope to teach, to get through, to help, to assist, to persuade, etc. if we are combative, confrontational, judgmental, or in a state of conflict. Be a friend first and forever.

-Finrock

It's easy to suit your assessment of it to suit your paradigm, but what did they think of your "hanging out"?
When you say seeds were planted, do you mean by you for them, or by them for you?

Do you know what a "fellow traveler" is?

Do you know what an enabler is?

Do you know what false compassion has been defined as?

dc

[Finrock]

Finrock,
It is when you seek them out because of them identifying as their politically popular sin.
Otherwise, the motab would be singing with pedophiles, rapists, adulterers, thieves etc. - but they’re not.
To them, homosexuality is a “special” sin worthy of prideful praise - which the others are not.
The church is becoming more and more worldly and thus less godly.

As a missionary, I was actively seeking out any sinners that would listen to me. I hung out with them, played games with them, believed the best of them, respected them, and tried to love them, even when some of their conduct/actions/behaviors/thoughts/ideas were gross to me or made me uncomfortable. I put all of my prejudices aside (or at least I tried to) for the moment with the hope of being able to connect with them on a common level, whatever that commonality might be.

In general, people don't care how much you know (or even what you know) until they know how much you care. We can't even hope to teach, to get through, to help, to assist, to persuade, etc. if we are combative, confrontational, judgmental, or in a state of conflict. Be a friend first and forever.

-Finrock

It's easy to suit your assessment of it to suit your paradigm, but what did they think of your "hanging out"?
When you say seeds were planted, do you mean by you for them, or by them for you?

Do you know what a "fellow traveler" is?

Do you know what an enabler is?

Do you know what false compassion has been defined as?

dc

They were initially surprised. I got some prejudiced comments and stereotypical comments about my religion, but, once they realized I was sincere and I wasn't there to put them down, judge them, or anything of the sort, those comments stopped. Our presence made some of them curious. Some asked questions about Mormonism. I was able to correct some incorrect views/ideas/thoughts that they had about Mormons. I had opportunity to share my religious views. Although this didn't result in anyone "converting" to Mormonism, it ended up being a positive experience and the hope is that maybe in the future these individuals would be more open to considering and listening to the tenets of our religion. A few made comments to the effect that they thought Mormons were elitist a******s but they don't believe that anymore.

Yes. Yes. Yes.

-Finrock

[Finrock]

King Lamoni was a murderer and many other things. Ammon didn't seem to care. Ammon, because he had been converted to Jesus Christ, had great concern and love for his "brethren", the Lamanites. Ammon went to the land of the Lamanites and was initially faced with suspicion and antagonism because Ammon was, after all, the enemy. Ammon was brought before King Lamoni. Ammon spoke to King Lamoni, a murderer, with respect. Ammon decided to not just to hang-out with a murderer, but he wanted to be a servant to a murderer.

The story of Ammon demonstrates the power of love, respect, and honor that is shown to your enemies. Ammon's ability to not be offended by the gross wickedness of the Lamanites was the catalyst for pretty much a whole kingdom being converted to Jesus Christ. Ammon's ability to forgo judging, condemning, preaching, or being combative/aggressive towards King Lamoni and his household was the reason why King Lamoni was astonished. This type of behavior is peculiar. Its peculiar because people are used to people treating their enemies like enemies. It was strange, odd, weird, and perplexing to King Lamoni and his household that Ammon would want to hang out with them, live with them, and serve them, especially given the history.

Ammon is a good man. Ammon demonstrated a good and a powerful example of how we can best get through to people so that they will want to know what you know and to understand what you understand.

-Finrock

[eddie]

I think we've over-reacted, or at least me. This is
Just extending a hand of fellowship to some of God's children, who's worth is the same as everyone else's.
I still have some very negative thoughts about it, but
They are fading. Let's see it for what it is.

What it is is a lack of repentance. A total lack of remorse. A belief that the sin is not a sin, and that wallowing in the sin is ... good. When it's truly evil.
The homosexuals have suffered due to their own unwise choices. They bask in pride of their sins.

It's evil upon evil.
dc

"We have witnessed a rapid and increasing public acceptance of cohabitation without marriage and same-sex marriage. The corresponding media advocacy, education, and even occupational requirements pose difficult challenges for Latter-day Saints," Oaks said. "We must try to balance the competing demands of following the gospel law in our personal lives and teachings even as we seek to show love for all." Dallin H. Oaks

[eddie]

I think we've over-reacted, or at least me. This is
Just extending a hand of fellowship to some of God's children, who's worth is the same as everyone else's.
I still have some very negative thoughts about it, but
They are fading. Let's see it for what it is.

What it is is a lack of repentance. A total lack of remorse. A belief that the sin is not a sin, and that wallowing in the sin is ... good. When it's truly evil.
The homosexuals have suffered due to their own unwise choices. They bask in pride of their sins.

It's evil upon evil.
dc

"We have witnessed a rapid and increasing public acceptance of cohabitation without marriage and same-sex marriage. The corresponding media advocacy, education, and even occupational requirements pose difficult challenges for Latter-day Saints," Oaks said. "We must try to balance the competing demands of following the gospel law in our personal lives and teachings even as we seek to show love for all." Dallin H. Oaks

"Church leaders are sometimes asked whether there is any place in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints for persons with homosexual or lesbian susceptibilities or feelings. Of course there is. The degree of difficulty and the pattern necessary to forgo behavior and to control thoughts will be different with different individuals, but the message of hope and the hand of fellowship offered by the Church is the same for all who strive."

Gordon B. Hinckley

[eddie]

When addressing the question of what message he has for the LGBT young single adults, Elder Ballard responded in a kind, frank manner.

“I want anyone who is a member of the Church who is gay or lesbian to know I believe you have a place in the kingdom and recognize that sometimes it may be difficult for you to see where you fit in the Lord’s Church, but you do.

“We need to listen to and understand what our LGBT brothers and sisters are feeling and experiencing. Certainly, we must do better than we have done in the past so that all members feel they have a spiritual home where their brothers and sisters love them and where they have a place to worship and serve the Lord.”

Elder Ballard taught that when a person loves God, he or she makes—and strives to keep—sacred covenants. Through living the gospel commandments a person will experience “untold blessings” allowing a person to become his or her very best selves—“exactly who God wants us to be.”

[Thinker]

There’s a difference between loving a person and loving their sin.
When the motab sought out this group of men openly practicing and identifying as their sin - they sought them based on their identification with their homosexual sin. And it seems like doing it for the praise of the world. Being kind when there are no cameras, as you meet someone in person, no matter what sins, is rewarded more by God because it’s more genuine and not for show.

The motab is like saying, “We will reward any who take pride in their special homosexual sins by singing with them and get media coverage which will make us look soooooo loving.”

How loving is it to praise homosexual behavior statistically known to be harmful?
https://www.webmd.com/sex/anal-sex-health-concerns
https://www.cdc.gov/msmhealth/STD.htm
https://www.cdc.gov/hiv/group/msm/index.html

[mgridle1]

I think we've over-reacted, or at least me. This is
Just extending a hand of fellowship to some of God's children, who's worth is the same as everyone else's.
I still have some very negative thoughts about it, but
They are fading. Let's see it for what it is.

What it is is a lack of repentance. A total lack of remorse. A belief that the sin is not a sin, and that wallowing in the sin is ... good. When it's truly evil.
The homosexuals have suffered due to their own unwise choices. They bask in pride of their sins.

It's evil upon evil.
dc

"We have witnessed a rapid and increasing public acceptance of cohabitation without marriage and same-sex marriage. The corresponding media advocacy, education, and even occupational requirements pose difficult challenges for Latter-day Saints," Oaks said. "We must try to balance the competing demands of following the gospel law in our personal lives and teachings even as we seek to show love for all." Dallin H. Oaks

"Church leaders are sometimes asked whether there is any place in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints for persons with homosexual or lesbian susceptibilities or feelings. Of course there is. The degree of difficulty and the pattern necessary to forgo behavior and to control thoughts will be different with different individuals, but the message of hope and the hand of fellowship offered by the Church is the same for all who strive."

Gordon B. Hinckley

And where is that in today's Church (the bold). Someone who identifies as homosexual isn't someone who is controlling thoughts, but in today's Church to be a homosexual is totally cool (as long as you don't "act on it"-whatever that means!)

[mgridle1]

There’s a difference between loving a person and loving their sin.
When the motab sought out this group of men openly practicing and identifying as their sin - they sought them based on their identification with their homosexual sin. And it seems like doing it for the praise of the world. Being kind when there are no cameras, as you meet someone in person, no matter what sins, is rewarded more by God because it’s more genuine and not for show.

The motab is like saying, “We will reward any who take pride in their special homosexual sins by singing with them and get media coverage which will make us look soooooo loving.”

How loving is it to praise homosexual behavior statistically known to be harmful?

Exactly, this was/is a PR stunt, showing to the world "see, look at us, look at us, we are sooooo loving to homosexuals, we aren't bigots, please, please, please believe us!"

And no one ever things about the lost opportunity. Which choir group in the local area who was deserving DID NOT get to sing with MoTab b/c the homosexuals sung? The unseen costs of political appeasement.

[Thinker]

“27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman [or man] to lust after her hath committed adultery with her [or him] already in his heart.”-Matt 5

The higher law Christ offered, is not just based on actions but also thought, feeling and intent.

[David13]

When addressing the question of what message he has for the LGBT young single adults, Elder Ballard responded in a kind, frank manner.

“I want anyone who is a member of the Church who is gay or lesbian to know I believe you have a place in the kingdom and recognize that sometimes it may be difficult for you to see where you fit in the Lord’s Church, but you do.

“We need to listen to and understand what our LGBT brothers and sisters are feeling and experiencing. Certainly, we must do better than we have done in the past so that all members feel they have a spiritual home where their brothers and sisters love them and where they have a place to worship and serve the Lord.”

Elder Ballard taught that when a person loves God, he or she makes—and strives to keep—sacred covenants. Through living the gospel commandments a person will experience “untold blessings” allowing a person to become his or her very best selves—“exactly who God wants us to be.”

We already have heard and do understand what they are feeling and experiencing.

It is that they want to sin, and so for convenience have decided to call their sin 'not a sin' and take great pride in their participation in it.

Which actually results in two sins.

Remember, our morality is based on what is right and what is wrong, and not what our family members do.
dc

[eddie]

When addressing the question of what message he has for the LGBT young single adults, Elder Ballard responded in a kind, frank manner.

“I want anyone who is a member of the Church who is gay or lesbian to know I believe you have a place in the kingdom and recognize that sometimes it may be difficult for you to see where you fit in the Lord’s Church, but you do.

“We need to listen to and understand what our LGBT brothers and sisters are feeling and experiencing. Certainly, we must do better than we have done in the past so that all members feel they have a spiritual home where their brothers and sisters love them and where they have a place to worship and serve the Lord.”

Elder Ballard taught that when a person loves God, he or she makes—and strives to keep—sacred covenants. Through living the gospel commandments a person will experience “untold blessings” allowing a person to become his or her very best selves—“exactly who God wants us to be.”

We already have heard and do understand what they are feeling and experiencing.

It is that they want to sin, and so for convenience have decided to call their sin 'not a sin' and take great pride in their participation in it.

Which actually results in two sins.

Remember, our morality is based on what is right and what is wrong, and not what our family members do.
dc

I agree with you DC, for some reason my heart has softened because I want mercy for my sins. Never thought I would feel this way,
I am so sick of their agenda and the way the push it on others.

[Finrock]

I agree with you DC, for some reason my heart has softened because I want mercy for my sins. Never thought I would feel this way,

This is exactly it. We recognize our own nothingness before God and how hopeless we are without Him. When we are able to look at our own life fearlessly and with honesty, we will see how ugly, filthy, and dirty we are and we will wonder how and why is Jesus wasting His time with me? We don't deserve His mercy. We don't deserve His grace. We don't deserve His goodness. We don't deserve anything but being thrust down to hell. And yet, by some miracle and through a love that is incomprehensible, Jesus forgives us. He shows us mercy, goodness, kindness, meekness, gentleness. We know that it wasn't because we deserved it or because we did something. We now love others because Jesus loved us first. We now show mercy because we know mercy has been shown to us. We now see, even though we couldn't see in the past, how Jesus never abandoned us. He was always faithful, always there, always His hands were outstretched. Even when we were living in riotous sin, open rebellion, it didn't matter, Jesus was there. He was with us in everything we ever did, do, or will do. He was there when we committed every sin. He was there.

It would be hypocritical of me to treat others any differently than how Jesus treated/treats me.

-Finrock

[Finrock]

I am so sick of their agenda and the way the push it on others.

Any effort, principle, idea, or attempt to force or coerce people to accept, believe, or abandon matters of conscience are horrendous.

Freedom of religion and freedom of conscience must be maintained for everyone. That means I oppose efforts in cities across the United States to pass legislation that forces, for instance, a baker to bake a cake for a homosexual couple. To be clear though, I'm not just opposed to using the law to force people to bake cakes for a homosexual marriage, I oppose using the law to force people to bake cakes period, for any reason. But, clearly there is a militant and a combative homosexual minority and supporters who are willing to use immoral measures to get their way and to force and to coerce using the strong arm of the law to do so. These groups and individuals who are trying to coerce, force, manipulate, shame, etc. are wrong in their actions and their agenda is wrong/evil. I abhor any loss of liberty and freedom and I am very much opposed to this subset of individuals and their agenda.

-Finrock

[Thinker]

When addressing the question of what message he has for the LGBT young single adults, Elder Ballard responded in a kind, frank manner.

“I want anyone who is a member of the Church who is gay or lesbian to know I believe you have a place in the kingdom and recognize that sometimes it may be difficult for you to see where you fit in the Lord’s Church, but you do.

“We need to listen to and understand what our LGBT brothers and sisters are feeling and experiencing. Certainly, we must do better than we have done in the past so that all members feel they have a spiritual home where their brothers and sisters love them and where they have a place to worship and serve the Lord.”

Elder Ballard taught that when a person loves God, he or she makes—and strives to keep—sacred covenants. Through living the gospel commandments a person will experience “untold blessings” allowing a person to become his or her very best selves—“exactly who God wants us to be.”

We already have heard and do understand what they are feeling and experiencing.

It is that they want to sin, and so for convenience have decided to call their sin 'not a sin' and take great pride in their participation in it.

Which actually results in two sins.

Remember, our morality is based on what is right and what is wrong, and not what our family members do.
dc

I agree with you DC, for some reason my heart has softened because I want mercy for my sins. Never thought I would feel this way,
I am so sick of their agenda and the way the push it on others.

Their agenda is to manipulate you to feel bad and take blame so they don’t have to.

Sinning is not so evil if it’s acknowledged as sin. God designed us to have weaknesses.
What is real evil is denying sin and trying to shift the blame - to make another pay.
That is what the homosexual agenda push is about.

It’s good to feel humble and realize we are all sinners. Then, God can make weak things strong.
Yet, don’t mistake homosexual fanatics attempts to shift their problems onto you, for it.

Eddie, there is a battle between principles. Can you sense it?
We need to put on all of the “armor of righteousness.”
We’ve got to stay on our toes - studying, pondering and praying with the spirit - to be humble and loving, but based on truth and standing for and defending what is genuinely GOoD. This is no easy feat in a society in which evil is called good and good evil.

[Jesef]

The problem, in society (not theocracy), is freedom vs discrimination. If you believe that religious freedom should be held sacrosanct, does it apply to religious beliefs that are discriminatory? For example, a religion could believe, as one of its tenets, that blacks are inferior and should not be allowed to marry whites (classic discrimination case, in U.S.). Is this religious freedom or discrimination? If that is the tenet of that religion and they own a wedding cake shop, should they be allowed to discriminate on the basis of race because it is part of their (racist) religion? This is where it gets hairy. Because people can believe religiously all kinds of stupid things. What if they believe, as part of their religion, that blacks and whites shouldn't live next door to each other in the same neighborhoods (races shouldn't mix) and they are a real-estate agent? Are they allowed not to sell homes to mixed or racial couples based on religious freedom? I don't see how the cake thing or homosexual marriage is much different - it's one group trying to infringe on the rights of another because of abhorrence. Religion is being used as an excuse not to treat others equally. The gay marriage causes no harm to the Christian baker/cake-maker - they are refusing service based on judgment and discrimination. I believe freedom is freedom - as long as someone's actions do not infringe on the rights of another (cause them harm) - they should be permitted (maximum freedom without infringement). Under those rules, we can live in peace with one another. Or should we have the right to refuse service under any and all pretenses? Nothing protected, in other words?

Btw, this is a pretty good supposition as to why the Church changed its position on Blacks and the Priesthood in 1978 - they were heading for some real legal trouble. Having a religious doctrine that classified another race as spiritually inferior was no longer tenable in the U.S. If litigated it could have gotten as nasty as the polygamy affair - temples/assets seized/closed, disenfranchised, etc. It may become so with women's rights at some point, too. Who knows?

[mgridle1]

I am so sick of their agenda and the way the push it on others.

But, clearly there is a militant and a combative homosexual minority

Dude, it ain't a minority . . .you need to wake up.

[ajax]

The problem, in society (not theocracy), is freedom vs discrimination. If you believe that religious freedom should be held sacrosanct, does it apply to religious beliefs that are discriminatory? For example, a religion could believe, as one of its tenets, that blacks are inferior and should not be allowed to marry whites (classic discrimination case, in U.S.). Is this religious freedom or discrimination? If that is the tenet of that religion and they own a wedding cake shop, should they be allowed to discriminate on the basis of race because it is part of their (racist) religion? This is where it gets hairy. Because people can believe religiously all kinds of stupid things. What if they believe, as part of their religion, that blacks and whites shouldn't live next door to each other in the same neighborhoods (races shouldn't mix) and they are a real-estate agent? Are they allowed not to sell homes to mixed or racial couples based on religious freedom? I don't see how the cake thing or homosexual marriage is much different - it's one group trying to infringe on the rights of another because of abhorrence. Religion is being used as an excuse not to treat others equally. The gay marriage causes no harm to the Christian baker/cake-maker - they are refusing service based on judgment and discrimination. I believe freedom is freedom - as long as someone's actions do not infringe on the rights of another (cause them harm) - they should be permitted (maximum freedom without infringement). Under those rules, we can live in peace with one another. Or should we have the right to refuse service under any and all pretenses? Nothing protected, in other words?

Btw, this is a pretty good supposition as to why the Church changed its position on Blacks and the Priesthood in 1978 - they were heading for some real legal trouble. Having a religious doctrine that classified another race as spiritually inferior was no longer tenable in the U.S. If litigated it could have gotten as nasty as the polygamy affair - temples/assets seized/closed, disenfranchised, etc. It may become so with women's rights at some point, too. Who knows?

When You Have Property Rights, You Don’t Need Religious Freedom

[mgridle1]

The problem, in society (not theocracy), is freedom vs discrimination.

Clearly you do not understand rights.

Why should I be FORCED to sell something to you-as in if I don't sell it to you, you can kill me?

Your hypocrisy is exposed with the Red Hen restaurant. Why is the owner allowed to DISCRIMINATE against Ms. Sanders. Oh that's right b/c she'd not part of a "protected class", in other words some people are more equal than others.

The concept is exactly the same.
I don't like you b/c of what I think about you (you are a conservative and I hate conservatives) therefore I won't serve you.
I don't like you b/c of what I think about you (you are a black and I hate blacks) therefore I won't serve you.

Except in our messed up society, one group of people is more protected (i.e. more privileged, i.e. UNEQUAL) under the law. Don't you dare say a word against a "protected" class or you will find yourself fired, bullied, castigated on the alter of "intolerance". But those unprotected class-yeah that's okay.

You can't have it both ways. You either decide:
1) You can not refuse to sell something to someone for ANY reason.
or
2) You can refuse to sell something to someone for ANY reason, even though it might be morally reprehensible to do so.

[Finrock]

I am so sick of their agenda and the way the push it on others.

But, clearly there is a militant and a combative homosexual minority

Dude, it ain't a minority . . .you need to wake up.

Prove it.

-Finrock

[Finrock]

The problem, in society (not theocracy), is freedom vs discrimination. If you believe that religious freedom should be held sacrosanct, does it apply to religious beliefs that are discriminatory? For example, a religion could believe, as one of its tenets, that blacks are inferior and should not be allowed to marry whites (classic discrimination case, in U.S.). Is this religious freedom or discrimination? If that is the tenet of that religion and they own a wedding cake shop, should they be allowed to discriminate on the basis of race because it is part of their (racist) religion? This is where it gets hairy. Because people can believe religiously all kinds of stupid things. What if they believe, as part of their religion, that blacks and whites shouldn't live next door to each other in the same neighborhoods (races shouldn't mix) and they are a real-estate agent? Are they allowed not to sell homes to mixed or racial couples based on religious freedom? I don't see how the cake thing or homosexual marriage is much different - it's one group trying to infringe on the rights of another because of abhorrence. Religion is being used as an excuse not to treat others equally. The gay marriage causes no harm to the Christian baker/cake-maker - they are refusing service based on judgment and discrimination. I believe freedom is freedom - as long as someone's actions do not infringe on the rights of another (cause them harm) - they should be permitted (maximum freedom without infringement). Under those rules, we can live in peace with one another. Or should we have the right to refuse service under any and all pretenses? Nothing protected, in other words?

Btw, this is a pretty good supposition as to why the Church changed its position on Blacks and the Priesthood in 1978 - they were heading for some real legal trouble. Having a religious doctrine that classified another race as spiritually inferior was no longer tenable in the U.S. If litigated it could have gotten as nasty as the polygamy affair - temples/assets seized/closed, disenfranchised, etc. It may become so with women's rights at some point, too. Who knows?

The simplest answer is that we are all sovereign but our sovereignty ends where another person's sovereignty begins.

In our system of government only a full jury of your peers should be able to limit your sovereignty if a grievance is brought against you and the jury unanimously decides that your "decrees" have violated, harmed, or injured another's sovereignty.

Otherwise, people ought to be free to live, act, do, or not do as they see fit.

-Finrock