San Francisco Gay Men's Chorus performs with Mormon Tabernacle Choir

[TrueIntent]

They realized we’re saved by faith not works. I think it’s great.

We are saved by faith; but damnation comes by unrepentent sinfulness.... a good example being this bunch of sodomites.

So....apparently you believe the church leaders are sinning by allowing this? You believe that Jesus Christ would not support this and that they are “missing the mark” which is the Hebrew definition of sin? Is that correct? To miss the mark is to sin, according to scripture. I’m just curious where you stand. You’re either in the “the way” or out of it (Christ being the way). Just curious what you believe.

Because, if we are not in a continual state of repentance, we sin, unless we are “in the way” (Christ’s way), for lack of a better explanation.

So, are you saying that these openly practicing sodomites are in a continual state of repentance?

As for the church leaders, I believe this decision is unwise.

I personally don’t know what they (choir gay men) are doing in their relationship with God, I haven't chatted with them, just with you on the forum. What I do know, you can’t judge I person by the outside. If we are saved by faith, you’d be suprised what that means when you experience acting in faith in that moment. It rocks your world... you realize the people who “dress” like it on their outsides, probably don’t have it on their insides. Why do you think John the Baptist and Elijah wore a hair coat...it’s a symbol. It takes guts to be Gay and have a relationship with God. Everyone tells you you’re burning in hell, and yet, you’re the one who has to get up the courage to go to Him directly and ask him yourself. For some reason we claim, as a church, that people can go directly to God and ask him, and yet we also scare the hell out of people who try to do so, we also claim that their revelation isn’t valid, while also claiming joseph Smith’s is. I challenge, more gay people, to go directly to God and ask Him, and then bear their witnesses. We could have a testimony meeting.

[Robin Hood]

We are saved by faith; but damnation comes by unrepentent sinfulness.... a good example being this bunch of sodomites.

So....apparently you believe the church leaders are sinning by allowing this? You believe that Jesus Christ would not support this and that they are “missing the mark” which is the Hebrew definition of sin? Is that correct? To miss the mark is to sin, according to scripture. I’m just curious where you stand. You’re either in the “the way” or out of it (Christ being the way). Just curious what you believe.

Because, if we are not in a continual state of repentance, we sin, unless we are “in the way” (Christ’s way), for lack of a better explanation.

So, are you saying that these openly practicing sodomites are in a continual state of repentance?

As for the church leaders, I believe this decision is unwise.

I personally don’t know what they (choir gay men) are doing in their relationship with God, I haven't chatted with them, just with you on the forum. What I do know, you can’t judge I person by the outside. If we are saved by faith, you’d be suprised what that means when you experience acting in faith in that moment. It rocks your world... you realize the people who “dress” like it on their outsides, probably don’t have it on their insides. Why do you think John the Baptist and Elijah wore a hair coat...it’s a symbol. It takes guts to be Gay and have a relationship with God. Everyone tells you you’re burning in hell, and yet, you’re the one who has to get up the courage to go to Him directly and ask him yourself. For some reason we claim, as a church, that people can go directly to God and ask him, and yet we also scare the hell out of people who try to do so, we also claim that their revelation isn’t valid, while also claiming joseph Smith’s is. I challenge, more gay people, to go directly to God and ask Him, and then bear their witnesses. We could have a testimony meeting.

Do you believe that it is possible for a practicing sodomite to be in a saved condition?

[SempiternalHarbinger]

It is interesting to note that Sodom was destroyed for it's "iniquity" and because their “sin is very grievous.” But sodomy was not the "very grievous" sin for which they were destroyed.

“Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.” - Ezekial 16:49

Sadly, nothing has changed.

“But it is not given that one man should possess that which is above another, wherefore the world lieth in sin.” – D&C 49:20.

[TrueIntent]

So....apparently you believe the church leaders are sinning by allowing this? You believe that Jesus Christ would not support this and that they are “missing the mark” which is the Hebrew definition of sin? Is that correct? To miss the mark is to sin, according to scripture. I’m just curious where you stand. You’re either in the “the way” or out of it (Christ being the way). Just curious what you believe.

Because, if we are not in a continual state of repentance, we sin, unless we are “in the way” (Christ’s way), for lack of a better explanation.

So, are you saying that these openly practicing sodomites are in a continual state of repentance?

As for the church leaders, I believe this decision is unwise.

I personally don’t know what they (choir gay men) are doing in their relationship with God, I haven't chatted with them, just with you on the forum. What I do know, you can’t judge I person by the outside. If we are saved by faith, you’d be suprised what that means when you experience acting in faith in that moment. It rocks your world... you realize the people who “dress” like it on their outsides, probably don’t have it on their insides. Why do you think John the Baptist and Elijah wore a hair coat...it’s a symbol. It takes guts to be Gay and have a relationship with God. Everyone tells you you’re burning in hell, and yet, you’re the one who has to get up the courage to go to Him directly and ask him yourself. For some reason we claim, as a church, that people can go directly to God and ask him, and yet we also scare the hell out of people who try to do so, we also claim that their revelation isn’t valid, while also claiming joseph Smith’s is. I challenge, more gay people, to go directly to God and ask Him, and then bear their witnesses. We could have a testimony meeting.

Do you believe that it is possible for a practicing sodomite to be in a saved condition?

Yes (I DOnt like labels(sodomite)....let’s say, a gay person who acts on faith. Do you believe you are also a sinner?. Have you ever experienced being saved by faith, while prior to that practicing religion as if works were saving (I have)? (We all sin, just differently, and in divers ways). It’s not what you have done (as a past sin), it’s what you believe and what beliefs you overcome...it’s continual repentance...Most of what we “practice” as a work comes from what we are taught to believe. Repent of that if it doesn’t line up with what Christ believes. We don’t repent of “flesh”...,we can’t. He changes us. We repent of what causes us to “act” that way. It’s usually a belief.

Btw, studying what it truly means to be “foreordained” has caused me to be less judgmental about God’s work. Imagine if you knew Saul before he became Paul but were judging him on his role as Saul OR Paul depending on which side of the fence you knew him on.—he was always damed based on the people he ministered to. Can you imagine trying to get them to see him as “servant” who understood. And yet, God foreordained him to be who he was (even when he was persecuting Christian) so he could comprehend sufferings on both sides and as a result he “suffered greatly” for his mission to the gentiles as a former persecuter of them. He suffered greatly from persecution of the gentiles.

Gay people have suffered. Just like Mormon pioneers. Let’s cut them some slack.

[eddie]

I think we've over-reacted, or at least me. This is
Just extending a hand of fellowship to some of God's children, who's worth is the same as everyone else's.
I still have some very negative thoughts about it, but
They are fading. Let's see it for what it is.

[Robin Hood]

So, are you saying that these openly practicing sodomites are in a continual state of repentance?

As for the church leaders, I believe this decision is unwise.

I personally don’t know what they (choir gay men) are doing in their relationship with God, I haven't chatted with them, just with you on the forum. What I do know, you can’t judge I person by the outside. If we are saved by faith, you’d be suprised what that means when you experience acting in faith in that moment. It rocks your world... you realize the people who “dress” like it on their outsides, probably don’t have it on their insides. Why do you think John the Baptist and Elijah wore a hair coat...it’s a symbol. It takes guts to be Gay and have a relationship with God. Everyone tells you you’re burning in hell, and yet, you’re the one who has to get up the courage to go to Him directly and ask him yourself. For some reason we claim, as a church, that people can go directly to God and ask him, and yet we also scare the hell out of people who try to do so, we also claim that their revelation isn’t valid, while also claiming joseph Smith’s is. I challenge, more gay people, to go directly to God and ask Him, and then bear their witnesses. We could have a testimony meeting.

Do you believe that it is possible for a practicing sodomite to be in a saved condition?

Yes (I DOnt like labels(sodomite)....let’s say, a gay person who acts on faith. Do you believe you are also a sinner?. Have you ever experienced being saved by faith, while prior to that practicing religion as if works were saving (I have)? (We all sin, just differently, and in divers ways). It’s not what you have done (as a past sin), it’s what you believe and what beliefs you overcome...it’s continual repentance...Most of what we “practice” as a work comes from what we are taught to believe. Repent of that if it doesn’t line up with what Christ believes. We don’t repent of “flesh”...,we can’t. He changes us. We repent of what causes us to “act” that way. It’s usually a belief.

Btw, studying what it truly means to be “foreordained” has caused me to be less judgmental about God’s work. Imagine if you knew Saul before he became Paul but were judging him on his role as Saul OR Paul depending on which side of the fence you knew him on.—he was always damed based on the people he ministered to. Can you imagine trying to get them to see him as “servant” who understood. And yet, God foreordained him to be who he was (even when he was persecuting Christian) so he could comprehend sufferings on both sides and as a result he “suffered greatly” for his mission to the gentiles as a former persecuter of them. He suffered greatly from persecution of the gentiles.

Gay people have suffered. Just like Mormon pioneers. Let’s cut them some slack.

"Sodomite" is the biblical label, not mine. I'm happy to go with scripture.
What do you believe "repent" means?

[passionflower]

Just about everyone posting here is overreacting to this combined choir incident concerning the Mormon Tab Choir and the Gay Mens' Chorus, and so are those posting on the MBB blog ( or whatever it is ). This choir thing is not some church statement condoning the gay lifestyle, etc.

Many controversies are artificially created/exaggerated to provoke extreme emotional reactions in persons of unstable character, and this is what political extremism thrives on. " Another day, another outrage! " Life is too short to allow ourselves to be manipulated like this. Stop letting other people upset you. I repeat: The church is NOT saying gay marraige or homosexual relations are acceptable to God.

The command to love your enemies still stands, and granted, the gay community are enemies of just about all we as LDS people(should) stand for. They are financially powerful, politically powerful, and all but own public opinion. And no kidding they will destroy anyone and anything who stands in their path, including the church, christianity in general, and the US constitution.

One way to conquer your enemies is by making them your friend. To do anything else is in this situation like fighting a war that has already been lost. The church put up a good fight against gay marraige, and not just in California but on world wide scale, and made no headway. In light of this, what exactly does anyone expect the church to do here?

Don't think I am one bit sympathetic to the gay cause. Not at all. I am not sympathetic to the US government for forcing the church to abandon polygamy, either, but that was another battle the church lost, and they had to go along with the powers that be or else. And the church has never retaliated or complained about this, or publically played the victim( even though the church truly was!), but went on to live at peace with the US government and support it to the death. What do you think would have happened if the church just kept fighting for their god granted right to religious freedom in the case of polygamy? Heck yeah, the church would have been destroyed, there would be no temple work for the dead, the whole earth would have been smitten with a curse, and we would all have nothing to look forward to but hell when we died. If you want to freak out and worry about something, worry about THAT.

Love your enemies, do good to them that hate you and pray for those who despitefully use you and persecute you. That's all I see going on with this combined choir event. Let God deal with all the rest. In the end, He really isn't going to let anyone get away with anything.

[TrueIntent]

I personally don’t know what they (choir gay men) are doing in their relationship with God, I haven't chatted with them, just with you on the forum. What I do know, you can’t judge I person by the outside. If we are saved by faith, you’d be suprised what that means when you experience acting in faith in that moment. It rocks your world... you realize the people who “dress” like it on their outsides, probably don’t have it on their insides. Why do you think John the Baptist and Elijah wore a hair coat...it’s a symbol. It takes guts to be Gay and have a relationship with God. Everyone tells you you’re burning in hell, and yet, you’re the one who has to get up the courage to go to Him directly and ask him yourself. For some reason we claim, as a church, that people can go directly to God and ask him, and yet we also scare the hell out of people who try to do so, we also claim that their revelation isn’t valid, while also claiming joseph Smith’s is. I challenge, more gay people, to go directly to God and ask Him, and then bear their witnesses. We could have a testimony meeting.

Do you believe that it is possible for a practicing sodomite to be in a saved condition?

Yes (I DOnt like labels(sodomite)....let’s say, a gay person who acts on faith. Do you believe you are also a sinner?. Have you ever experienced being saved by faith, while prior to that practicing religion as if works were saving (I have)? (We all sin, just differently, and in divers ways). It’s not what you have done (as a past sin), it’s what you believe and what beliefs you overcome...it’s continual repentance...Most of what we “practice” as a work comes from what we are taught to believe. Repent of that if it doesn’t line up with what Christ believes. We don’t repent of “flesh”...,we can’t. He changes us. We repent of what causes us to “act” that way. It’s usually a belief.

Btw, studying what it truly means to be “foreordained” has caused me to be less judgmental about God’s work. Imagine if you knew Saul before he became Paul but were judging him on his role as Saul OR Paul depending on which side of the fence you knew him on.—he was always damed based on the people he ministered to. Can you imagine trying to get them to see him as “servant” who understood. And yet, God foreordained him to be who he was (even when he was persecuting Christian) so he could comprehend sufferings on both sides and as a result he “suffered greatly” for his mission to the gentiles as a former persecuter of them. He suffered greatly from persecution of the gentiles.

Gay people have suffered. Just like Mormon pioneers. Let’s cut them some slack.

"Sodomite" is the biblical label, not mine. I'm happy to go with scripture.
What do you believe "repent" means?

Repent means something like “about face” or “turn”. What we repent of is “sin” which means “missing the mark”. To miss the mark is to miss Jesus Christ. We repent of missing “Christ”. To miss him means you would have come to know him. We don’t repent of “works” or come closer to him by our works because performances/works are usually related to culture.

For example. To cut Sampson’s hair was to remove his spiritual strength, so then the Jews didn’t cut hair, however a Nazareth vow meant you would cut your hair as a sign you were following him. Women with lose hair were adulterers and yet the woman drying his feet with her hair is part of the symbol of the “second anointing ordinances”. White shirts and short hair are not saving, however strict obedience wearing them because you “believe” you serve God will eventually lead you to Him which will reveal that the white shirt and short hair did nothing but teaching you about who He really is. Then you find yourself in need of repenting for believing those things mattered to God. You can’t judge someone’s outward clothing or choices. If they are foreordained like Saul who becomes Paul, You don’t know where they are on the path at which they “become”. They will end up being your teacher. (And symbolically and spiritually, you will “serve” them.

[TrueIntent]

If the world was in complete darkness (say we were spirits in the spirit world and you could take any form you wanted) and the only thing we could do was “hear”....we would have to discern who we should follow, just by listening to their preaching. But you couldn’t “see” how they would actually “act” when they were in the flesh. Are you confident you serve The Christ. Maybe this is all about knowing Him, not claiming to.

[TrueIntent]

On a side note, where Saul consents to the stoning of Stephen, all those “prophet stoners” lay their garments at sauls feet. Saul leaves with their garment AND THEN he becomes Paul. Their teacher/leader in spiritual things, but also servant because he is left to instruct them on truth. The greatest and least.

[passionflower]

Do you believe that it is possible for a practicing sodomite to be in a saved condition?

Yes (I DOnt like labels(sodomite)....let’s say, a gay person who acts on faith. Do you believe you are also a sinner?. Have you ever experienced being saved by faith, while prior to that practicing religion as if works were saving (I have)? (We all sin, just differently, and in divers ways). It’s not what you have done (as a past sin), it’s what you believe and what beliefs you overcome...it’s continual repentance...Most of what we “practice” as a work comes from what we are taught to believe. Repent of that if it doesn’t line up with what Christ believes. We don’t repent of “flesh”...,we can’t. He changes us. We repent of what causes us to “act” that way. It’s usually a belief.

Btw, studying what it truly means to be “foreordained” has caused me to be less judgmental about God’s work. Imagine if you knew Saul before he became Paul but were judging him on his role as Saul OR Paul depending on which side of the fence you knew him on.—he was always damed based on the people he ministered to. Can you imagine trying to get them to see him as “servant” who understood. And yet, God foreordained him to be who he was (even when he was persecuting Christian) so he could comprehend sufferings on both sides and as a result he “suffered greatly” for his mission to the gentiles as a former persecuter of them. He suffered greatly from persecution of the gentiles.

Gay people have suffered. Just like Mormon pioneers. Let’s cut them some slack.

"Sodomite" is the biblical label, not mine. I'm happy to go with scripture.
What do you believe "repent" means?

Repent means something like “about face” or “turn”. What we repent of is “sin” which means “missing the mark”. To miss the mark is to miss Jesus Christ. We repent of missing “Christ”. To miss him means you would have come to know him. We don’t repent of “works” or come closer to him by our works because performances/works are usually related to culture.

For example. To cut Sampson’s hair was to remove his spiritual strength, so then the Jews didn’t cut hair, however a Nazareth vow meant you would cut your hair as a sign you were following him. Women with lose hair were adulterers and yet the woman drying his feet with her hair is part of the symbol of the “second anointing ordinances”. White shirts and short hair are not saving, however strict obedience wearing them because you “believe” you serve God will eventually lead you to Him which will reveal that the white shirt and short hair did nothing but teaching you about who He really is. Then you find yourself in need of repenting for believing those things mattered to God. You can’t judge someone’s outward clothing or choices. If they are foreordained like Saul who becomes Paul, You don’t know where they are on the path at which they “become”. They will end up being your teacher. (And symbolically and spiritually, you will “serve” them.

Repentance is a religious experience, not a philosophical one. You seem to have those two ideas confused with each other and I call that missing the mark BIG TIME.

[TrueIntent]

Yes (I DOnt like labels(sodomite)....let’s say, a gay person who acts on faith. Do you believe you are also a sinner?. Have you ever experienced being saved by faith, while prior to that practicing religion as if works were saving (I have)? (We all sin, just differently, and in divers ways). It’s not what you have done (as a past sin), it’s what you believe and what beliefs you overcome...it’s continual repentance...Most of what we “practice” as a work comes from what we are taught to believe. Repent of that if it doesn’t line up with what Christ believes. We don’t repent of “flesh”...,we can’t. He changes us. We repent of what causes us to “act” that way. It’s usually a belief.

Btw, studying what it truly means to be “foreordained” has caused me to be less judgmental about God’s work. Imagine if you knew Saul before he became Paul but were judging him on his role as Saul OR Paul depending on which side of the fence you knew him on.—he was always damed based on the people he ministered to. Can you imagine trying to get them to see him as “servant” who understood. And yet, God foreordained him to be who he was (even when he was persecuting Christian) so he could comprehend sufferings on both sides and as a result he “suffered greatly” for his mission to the gentiles as a former persecuter of them. He suffered greatly from persecution of the gentiles.

Gay people have suffered. Just like Mormon pioneers. Let’s cut them some slack.

"Sodomite" is the biblical label, not mine. I'm happy to go with scripture.
What do you believe "repent" means?

Repent means something like “about face” or “turn”. What we repent of is “sin” which means “missing the mark”. To miss the mark is to miss Jesus Christ. We repent of missing “Christ”. To miss him means you would have come to know him. We don’t repent of “works” or come closer to him by our works because performances/works are usually related to culture.

For example. To cut Sampson’s hair was to remove his spiritual strength, so then the Jews didn’t cut hair, however a Nazareth vow meant you would cut your hair as a sign you were following him. Women with lose hair were adulterers and yet the woman drying his feet with her hair is part of the symbol of the “second anointing ordinances”. White shirts and short hair are not saving, however strict obedience wearing them because you “believe” you serve God will eventually lead you to Him which will reveal that the white shirt and short hair did nothing but teaching you about who He really is. Then you find yourself in need of repenting for believing those things mattered to God. You can’t judge someone’s outward clothing or choices. If they are foreordained like Saul who becomes Paul, You don’t know where they are on the path at which they “become”. They will end up being your teacher. (And symbolically and spiritually, you will “serve” them.

Repentance is a religious experience, not a philosophical one. You seem to have those two ideas confused with each other and I call that missing the mark BIG TIME.

Have you never read Isaiah? Or revelations? Have you ever heard of the word “parable”. We must have different religions. One can repent of an action and not be healed, hence all the repeat sex offenders and adultery. But sure, teach people attendance at a 12 step program without correcting belief does the trick. Christ corrects the belief....we need a spiritual healer for that. How can we receive earthly things if we haven’t received heavenly? (Jesus said that, do you understand it?)

[simpleton]

I don’t pretend to know all the answers on this issue. I see both sides really.
I do know we are all children of God and therefore deserve the respect a child of God would have. The church is in the business of salvation. Every soul straight or gay deserves a chance at salvation!
As for the members who are doubting their affiliation with the church and leadership, take a step back and really ask yourself if you are willing to go down that path? The prophet will NEVER lead us astray. That is a promise from the Lord. Therefore we need not worry. This is singing together we are talking about, keep things in perspective!

I guess not very many people read Isaiah, but the above promise is not nor ever was a promise from the Lord...
But lets see what Isaiah has to say about " the leaders".(among many other biblical "prophets")

Isaiah 3:

9The shew of their countenance doth witness against them; and they declare their sin as Sodom, they hide it not. Woe unto their soul! for they have rewarded evil unto themselves. Exactly where we are right now today, the sin of Sodom is being declared and " they hide it not" in fact its shouted from the roof tops...

10Say ye to the righteous, that it shall be well with him: for they shall eat the fruit of their doings.That is a very encouraging word to those that mourn because of the wickedness

11Woe unto the wicked! it shall be ill with him: for the reward of his hands shall be given him.

12As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths.

Ok, who leads Gods people today????? Those leaders are causing Gods people to err and plus they are destroying the path that God desires them to walk on.
But oh no " its not in tbe program" "God would remove them"...
Actually God allows free agency, from the top to the lowest lowly member at the bottom. And when the majority accept wickedness so goes the church. And that is exactly what is happening.
But those that like to feel emotionally secure in leaving their eternal salvation in the hands of leaders that lead them astray, so be it, that is their free agency also.

[Robin Hood]

TrueIntent, you are right in that to repent means "to turn away from".
Therefore, in order to repent we need to turn away from our sinful behaviour. That doesn't mean we become sinless, because we are still stained with the sins we have committed. But it does mean we are seeking to bring our lives into conformity with Christ's teachings. By doing this, the atonement becomes an active ingredient in our lives and the Holy Ghost cleanses us. It literally burns away our sins in a baptism of fire. Fire not only cleanses, it sterilises. It removes all residues.

But to deliberately hang on to sin, as practicing sodomites do, irrespective of how much faith or belief in Christ they claim to have, will avail them nothing as they choose (note that word) not to repent. Christ can do nothing for the unrepentent (ie. the non-turning away).

A true Christian, who really believes they are saved, will change their behaviour. They will endeavour to conform to Christ's will. Anything else is simply easy believism, and will land millions in hell.

[TrueIntent]

TrueIntent, you are right in that to repent means "to turn away from".
Therefore, in order to repent we need to turn away from our sinful behaviour. That doesn't mean we become sinless, because we are still stained with the sins we have committed. But it does mean we are seeking to bring our lives into conformity with Christ's teachings. By doing this, the atonement becomes an active ingredient in our lives and the Holy Ghost cleanses us. It literally burns away our sins in a baptism of fire. Fire not only cleanses, it sterilises. It removes all residues.

But to deliberately hang on to sin, as practicing sodomites do, irrespective of how much faith or belief in Christ they claim to have, will avail them nothing as they choose (note that word) not to repent. Christ can do nothing for the unrepentent (ie. the non-turning away).

A true Christian, who really believes they are saved, will change their behaviour. They will endeavour to conform to Christ's will. Anything else is simply easy believism, and will land millions in hell.

They don’t change their own behavior. They can’t. The act of faith precedes the works that flow out of them. Christ changes behavior because He changes them first. He can’t change you if you haven’t repented.

Yes, we try to conform to Christ’s understanding and wisdom. The end of the law is love god and neighbor. That was the point of the law in the first place. To point us to love, when we find it, stay there. Don’t turn away from partaking of the fruit of the tree because you are ashamed because others mock and point at you.

Hell is being damned (never progressing) It’s a state of judging while never understanding. It’s to not know suffering and so you add to another’s. Christ was a man who suffered and was acquainted with grief. Who sinned? Was it the blind man or his parents. Neither, it was so that the works of God may be manifest.

[EmmaLee]

As a side-note - Reynolds is from Vegas, and was building a house in my friend's stake. He’s now getting divorced and moving to California. It’s unfortunate how easy it is to be mislead. It’s especially sad when it’s a public display that influences other impressionable youth, both in and out of the church. Just small variances can lead us to complete mis-direction.

'Believer' spotlights push to reform Mormon Church's LGBT policy

By Brian Lowry, CNN

Updated 2:03 PM ET, Fri June 22, 2018

(CNN)Deeply personal and equally moving, "Believer" documents Imagine Dragons lead singer Dan Reynolds' crusading campaign on behalf of LGBTQ rights, in direct conflict with the teachings of the Mormon Church under which he was raised.

As Reynolds notes, the terms "Mormon" and "rock star" don't exactly go hand in hand, but the singer's commitment to his religion sounds sincere. He speaks at some length about his upbringing, and his initial reluctance to marry his wife, Aja Volkman, because she wasn't Mormon, which meant departing from the marry-within-the-faith path followed by his brothers.

Still, it's Reynolds' awakening regarding the church's hostility to gay marriage, and promotion of "solutions" like "mixed-orientation marriages" (prodding gay and lesbian members to wed straight people of the opposite gender) and celibacy, which prompts him to stay and fight rather than simply leave.

"Believer" (a name that doubles as the title of one of the group's hits) zeroes in on the toll of those policies, starting with an alarmingly high suicide rate among gay teens in the church's home state of Utah. Those testimonials -- in some instances from grieving parents -- are devastating.

Filming in 2017, Reynolds -- shown tooling around mixing the band's hit "Thunder" -- decides, naturally, to put on a show: an awareness-raising concert called the LoveLoud Festival. [Which the LDS Church endorsed - https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/ ... d-festival ]

The documentary -- which in addition to the rock songs boasts a musical score from movie composer Hans Zimmer -- also features Tyler Glenn, the lead singer of Neon Trees, who has his own issues with the church, being gay and Mormon.

"Believer" will likely be written off as propaganda by opponents of the gay-rights movement, but Reynolds seems determined to soldier on, in a manner -- informed by his experience in the church -- designed to persuade rather than judge. That's clear from the beginning, during a radio interview in which Reynolds discusses what he feels to be his obligation to speak out against things -- including the church's teachings regarding homosexuality -- that are hurting people.

On that score, and others, "Believer" and its headliner hit all the right notes, in a film that delivers another kind of thunder.

"Believer" premieres June 25 at 8 p.m. on HBO.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/22/entertai ... index.html

[Finrock]

Gay choir sang with MoTab. The sky is not falling. The camel is not invading. The end of the world is not nigh. These and others like them are extreme and irrational responses to this event.

Identifying as a space cadet is not a sin. Identifying as a Nazi is not a sin. Identifying as a Jew is not a sin. Identifying as a rapist is not a sin. Identifying as Mickey Mouse is not a sin. Identifying as a skinhead is not a sin. Identifying as a heterosexual is not a sin. By the same logic, by the same reasoning, and by the very same principle, identifying as a homosexual is not a sin.

People can identify as anything they want, all day long. As long as they aren't doing anything immoral, harming others, or violating my sovereignty or the sovereignty of others, why would I or anyone, care?

-Finrock

[Thinker]

For some reason, this addition to the weight of the church caving in to homosexual lies, has been the straw that seems to be breaking the camel’s back. It’s not just this - but in context of how the church has caved in other ways - especially at the local level (bishop/stake president) which negatively has affected, or can affect, us and our families.

I understand that the church is basically trying to make up for the slap in the face to those with “special” homosexual preferences, but they are going too far. And blaming a church for teen suicide is ridiculous. 90% of suicides are due to mental illness and there are way too many other factors associated with that and suicide to use the church as a scapegoat - but the church is falling for such nonsense. And that’s making many of us wonder if we can really depend on the church to stand for truth and marriage between a man and a woman.

I’m all for being kind and encouraging respect for all people, no matter what sins, but when the church initiate affiliation - hanging out and singing - with people who base their identity on their sins, it is like saying, “I seek you because of your sin” rather than in spite of them. It is praising sin and supporting the identification with sin, which is damning - holding back from overcoming and progressing.

The bible story about destroying Sodom was harsh - politically incorrect to say the least. As mentioned in Ezek. 16:49, part of the iniquity was riches and not sharing with the poor, (a problem in the lds church - leaders and members) and then on top of that the sexual perversions etc... (verse 50:) “And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me; therefore I took them away as I saw good.”

To liken this story to our circumstances, maybe God knows that when you associate with people openly and pridefully sinning, it is more tempting to either join them in sinning or accept their sinning. God seemed to seek to avoid such evil influence - to have nothing to do with it.

Yes, Jesus didn’t condemn but did say, “go and sin no more” and did not put sinners up to be praised for their sins. Jesus was killed for speaking politically incorrect truth, which some in power, took to be hard.

[Finrock]

...hanging out and singing - with people who base their identity on their sins, it is like saying, “I seek you because of your sin” rather than in spite of them. It is praising sin and supporting the identification with sin, which is damning - holding back from overcoming and progressing.

Hanging out and singing with people who are gay is not praising sin, or supporting sin, neither is it damning in any way.

-Finrock

[SmallFarm]

We're all stained. By what measure ye mete.

[Thinker]

Finrock,
It is when you seek them out because of them identifying as their politically popular sin.
Otherwise, the motab would be singing with pedophiles, rapists, adulterers, thieves etc. - but they’re not.
To them, homosexuality is a “special” sin worthy of prideful praise - which the others are not.
The church is becoming more and more worldly and thus less godly.

[Finrock]

As one of many examples, when I was a missionary I hung-out with and actually sang with and played music with a bunch of drunks who were clearly misogynistic and fornicating all of the time (and quite proud of that fact too).

At no point was I advocating sin, was I supporting sin, was I saying it was OK for them to disrespect women and/or to fornicate. I was building on common beliefs, "fellowshipping", breaking down barriers, and changing stereotypes. Some would say, planting seeds.

-Finrock

[Finrock]

Finrock,
It is when you seek them out because of them identifying as their politically popular sin.
Otherwise, the motab would be singing with pedophiles, rapists, adulterers, thieves etc. - but they’re not.
To them, homosexuality is a “special” sin worthy of prideful praise - which the others are not.
The church is becoming more and more worldly and thus less godly.

Its easy to characterize things to fit our chosen paradigm, but that doesn't make our characterization factual/reality.

-Finrock

[Finrock]

Finrock,
It is when you seek them out because of them identifying as their politically popular sin.
Otherwise, the motab would be singing with pedophiles, rapists, adulterers, thieves etc. - but they’re not.
To them, homosexuality is a “special” sin worthy of prideful praise - which the others are not.
The church is becoming more and more worldly and thus less godly.

As a missionary, I was actively seeking out any sinners that would listen to me. I hung out with them, played games with them, believed the best of them, respected them, and tried to love them, even when some of their conduct/actions/behaviors/thoughts/ideas were gross to me or made me uncomfortable. I put all of my prejudices aside (or at least I tried to) for the moment with the hope of being able to connect with them on a common level, whatever that commonality might be.

In general, people don't care how much you know (or even what you know) until they know how much you care. We can't even hope to teach, to get through, to help, to assist, to persuade, etc. if we are combative, confrontational, judgmental, or in a state of conflict. Be a friend first and forever.

-Finrock

[Thinker]

Finrock,
I could say the same of you. We each are sharing our perspectives.
I have stood up against bullying several times - once when it was because a guy had feminine mannerisms. Twice I got socked in the face defending friends from their abusive boyfriends. I believe in helping one another, and not condemning people, only harmful behavior. We’re all works in progress.

I have also seen how when I have hung out with friends who were doing bad things, my standards were lowered. My patriarchal blessing warns, “Do not frequent places you know evil will abound” and “choose your companions carefully.” The church has warned against affiliating with groups that go against gospel teachings. Homosexuality clearly goes against the proclamation to the world about the family. https://www.lds.org/topics/family-procl ... g&old=true

Research suggests that about 70% of people are easily swayed by popular opinion. It is not just teenagers that need to be careful of peer pressure and herd mentality. Even those who are not easily swayed, like Jesus, are selective with whom they surround themselves.

Love ideally strives to be unconditional, but involvement needs to be conditional. This is especially imperative when friends of mine with homosexual preferences have sought to be alone with my children. Loving my children comes before others, though I also try to take care of myself (exercise etc). It’s similar to the flight attendant advice in case of emergency to put an oxygen mask on yourself before helping a child. If you are passed out, how helpful would you be to others? I used to give and give - way too much and was left feeling depleated. I have learned that I love better when I maintain boundaries with those who habitually make bad choices. I need to love others - especially those most difficult to love - but I also need to love myself - so says the greatest commandments.