San Francisco Gay Men's Chorus performs with Mormon Tabernacle Choir

[DesertWonderer2]

It should have never been billed as the Mormon Tab with Gay choir.....How about a choir from San Fransisco?

Though I know we want to reach out to all of Gods children, and we should. Do we want to be part in the fall of some youth into sin? A youth who is confused and yet see's what appears to be our faith pandering to the title "Gay?" Indeed we promote the lifestyle every time we use the word in article and in speech. N
The term itself is an expression of a sexual behavior, not a race or acceptable creed.
To add to that, are we not also saying to those who are struggling with the issue, look see it's okay to one degree to another? I know what we say from the pulpit and in doctrine, but if you don't think this is not being seen as a victory by the adversary, then I think more prayer and contemplation is needed.
To be delicate, Gay has become a descriptive word for a group who accepts particular acts in their relationship; do we want to wave that flag?
I tried to share this opinion with Desert News when they ran the article; but I guess it was not what they wanted to hear or share anything other then acceptance. .

For a “Blindman”. You see quite well.

[AI2.0]

I believe we are being protected by the Catholic Church.
What I mean by this is that as long as the RC church refuses to permit or recognize same-sex marriage, we are safe. They can't come after us and not them. They can't defeat the Catholics right now as they are too big, strong, powerful and politically savvy.
However, if the Catholics ever cave in, we're toast.

I'd say it helps to have powerful friends, but I still believe firmly that we are being protected by our God.


If you believe we are being protected by the Catholic church, I suggest you pray often and fervently for their well being and safety.

[eddie]

The vitriol of these posts is staggering. This is under "Gospel topics"? According to some posts here the gospel just can no longer true because MoTab sang with GAYS! The picture of Christ with arms outstretched with a quote alluding we are teaching our children to stray from Him if we SING WITH GAYS?? When the director said there might be a mormon young man in the audience who wants to come out, that did it for me. Come sing and keep your opinions to yourself! And yes, we will need to tech our children to folow Christ, or school teachers among some teach them differently.
I'm going to admit - this invitation by the choir seemed to be a bit "PR'ish" but in reality we need a little bit of positive PR to show the members of the church - not the general public - that we are a Church of love and acceptance of all children of God. Stop using the phrase "love the sinner hate the sin" to justify your prejudices and intolerance. " Love the sinner, hate the sin." How about we practice the love part and let the other person be responsible for their own sin? As an active temple recommend holding member and a parent of two gay children with one gay sibling, I can tell you that when I focused on the "loving the sinner hating the sin" mantra I wasn't truly loving and my own heart and testimony was conflicted. When I remembered who I am - a Child of God - remembered who my children and my sister are - Children of God - and just started loving them - my heart was more at ease and my relationships have dramatically changed. I still don't "get it". I don't understand the attraction - and guess what? I don't have to because I'm not the judge! I set the standard for my home, for my behavior, and that's it. The Lord sets the standard for all of us, its our choice to follow or not. My children' behavior does affect me personally and deeply, anyone who says it doesn't is not being honest.
If you look behind the language and tone of the posts here you will likely find some high-horse sitters who bring a plate of cookies to the gay neighbor and bash them all the way home - or worse the parents who kicked their children out of the house at age 15 when the child confided in the parent who always said "you can tell me anything"... Who left their missionary at the airport stranded when they came home early because they couldn't live through the conflict of actions and feelings. Who looked away when one son beat the living daylights out of his sibling who revealed his sexuality. As prophets have taught (see Dallin H Oaks Balancing Truth and Tolerance) "tolerance can be dominant where the behavior does not involve us personally." Your child's feelings about who they are attracted to is theirs. Your neighbors that are gay - that's their feelings - their behavior, not yours. These people are singing folks. Their "gay behavior" doesn't affect you personally. Elder Oaks "In all of this we should not presume to judge our neighbors or associates on the ultimate effect of their behaviors. That judgment is the Lord’s, not ours."

And yet this post is one of the most judgemental I've read in a long time! In all sincerety I would suggest you get some counseling.

Seriously? Is that what you got from that post?

Did you even read it to know that this is something they deal with on a day to day basis with their loved ones? Have you read my posts? I do hurt for them and have expressed it on this thread. Did you consider that it might be more emotional and difficult for them, than for someone who can look at this from an 'outsiders' view point? And what do you know about me? I would suggest you get some counseling concerning being a know it all, its a problem with you.

Eddie, I'd suggest you not tell other people to 'get some counseling'. That is judgmental and inappropriate advice to be offered in such an unloving manner.I suppose I should take a lesson from you on how to be loving?

[eddie]

And this is what I get from your posts A12.0

People who think they know everything tend to be judgmental, critical, and overbearing. They take over conversations and congratulate themselves when they appear to be wiser than you.

[JLCgm3]

The vitriol of these posts is staggering. This is under "Gospel topics"? According to some posts here the gospel just can no longer true because MoTab sang with GAYS! The picture of Christ with arms outstretched with a quote alluding we are teaching our children to stray from Him if we SING WITH GAYS?? When the director said there might be a mormon young man in the audience who wants to come out, that did it for me. Come sing and keep your opinions to yourself! And yes, we will need to tech our children to folow Christ, or school teachers among some teach them differently.
I'm going to admit - this invitation by the choir seemed to be a bit "PR'ish" but in reality we need a little bit of positive PR to show the members of the church - not the general public - that we are a Church of love and acceptance of all children of God. Stop using the phrase "love the sinner hate the sin" to justify your prejudices and intolerance. " Love the sinner, hate the sin." How about we practice the love part and let the other person be responsible for their own sin? As an active temple recommend holding member and a parent of two gay children with one gay sibling, I can tell you that when I focused on the "loving the sinner hating the sin" mantra I wasn't truly loving and my own heart and testimony was conflicted. When I remembered who I am - a Child of God - remembered who my children and my sister are - Children of God - and just started loving them - my heart was more at ease and my relationships have dramatically changed. I still don't "get it". I don't understand the attraction - and guess what? I don't have to because I'm not the judge! I set the standard for my home, for my behavior, and that's it. The Lord sets the standard for all of us, its our choice to follow or not. My children' behavior does affect me personally and deeply, anyone who says it doesn't is not being honest.
If you look behind the language and tone of the posts here you will likely find some high-horse sitters who bring a plate of cookies to the gay neighbor and bash them all the way home - or worse the parents who kicked their children out of the house at age 15 when the child confided in the parent who always said "you can tell me anything"... Who left their missionary at the airport stranded when they came home early because they couldn't live through the conflict of actions and feelings. Who looked away when one son beat the living daylights out of his sibling who revealed his sexuality. As prophets have taught (see Dallin H Oaks Balancing Truth and Tolerance) "tolerance can be dominant where the behavior does not involve us personally." Your child's feelings about who they are attracted to is theirs. Your neighbors that are gay - that's their feelings - their behavior, not yours. These people are singing folks. Their "gay behavior" doesn't affect you personally. Elder Oaks "In all of this we should not presume to judge our neighbors or associates on the ultimate effect of their behaviors. That judgment is the Lord’s, not ours."

And yet this post is one of the most judgemental I've read in a long time! In all sincerety I would suggest you get some counseling.

Hey - I'm still learning how to use this site - having a hard time figuring out how to reply and who is commenting on my post. So Eddie - my response was to you not to Lizzy who apparently "thanked" my original post. Whew!

[Durzan]

The vitriol of these posts is staggering. This is under "Gospel topics"? According to some posts here the gospel just can no longer true because MoTab sang with GAYS! The picture of Christ with arms outstretched with a quote alluding we are teaching our children to stray from Him if we SING WITH GAYS?? When the director said there might be a mormon young man in the audience who wants to come out, that did it for me. Come sing and keep your opinions to yourself! And yes, we will need to tech our children to folow Christ, or school teachers among some teach them differently.
I'm going to admit - this invitation by the choir seemed to be a bit "PR'ish" but in reality we need a little bit of positive PR to show the members of the church - not the general public - that we are a Church of love and acceptance of all children of God. Stop using the phrase "love the sinner hate the sin" to justify your prejudices and intolerance. " Love the sinner, hate the sin." How about we practice the love part and let the other person be responsible for their own sin? As an active temple recommend holding member and a parent of two gay children with one gay sibling, I can tell you that when I focused on the "loving the sinner hating the sin" mantra I wasn't truly loving and my own heart and testimony was conflicted. When I remembered who I am - a Child of God - remembered who my children and my sister are - Children of God - and just started loving them - my heart was more at ease and my relationships have dramatically changed. I still don't "get it". I don't understand the attraction - and guess what? I don't have to because I'm not the judge! I set the standard for my home, for my behavior, and that's it. The Lord sets the standard for all of us, its our choice to follow or not. My children' behavior does affect me personally and deeply, anyone who says it doesn't is not being honest.
If you look behind the language and tone of the posts here you will likely find some high-horse sitters who bring a plate of cookies to the gay neighbor and bash them all the way home - or worse the parents who kicked their children out of the house at age 15 when the child confided in the parent who always said "you can tell me anything"... Who left their missionary at the airport stranded when they came home early because they couldn't live through the conflict of actions and feelings. Who looked away when one son beat the living daylights out of his sibling who revealed his sexuality. As prophets have taught (see Dallin H Oaks Balancing Truth and Tolerance) "tolerance can be dominant where the behavior does not involve us personally." Your child's feelings about who they are attracted to is theirs. Your neighbors that are gay - that's their feelings - their behavior, not yours. These people are singing folks. Their "gay behavior" doesn't affect you personally. Elder Oaks "In all of this we should not presume to judge our neighbors or associates on the ultimate effect of their behaviors. That judgment is the Lord’s, not ours."

And yet this post is one of the most judgemental I've read in a long time! In all sincerety I would suggest you get some counseling.

Hey - I'm still learning how to use this site - having a hard time figuring out how to reply and who is commenting on my post. So Eddie - my response was to you not to Lizzy who apparently "thanked" my original post. Whew!

Hey, JLCgm3... I am Durzan, one of the friendly mods for LDS Freedom Forum. Just wanted to give you a hearty welcome you to the forum, invite you to formally introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about yourself in the Introductions forum, and encourage you to read the forum rules if you haven't already done so (It just boils down to being respectful of the Church and your fellow forum members. IE: No Flaming, Spamming, or Trolling; Be respectful of your fellow forum members and do not insult, slander, or make personal attacks against them; and please refrain from making blatant anti-mormon or anti-LDS Church posts, as this is a pro-LDS forum).

[Finrock]

Not everyone is going to appreciate this because I get the impression some people think they are better than or superior in some way to those who have same sex attractions. But, I would hang out and sing with everyone who has participated in this forum. I don't think I'm better than anyone and I am under no delusions that I'm somehow less sinful then anyone or the same sex attracted person. I'm a hopeless sinner who is depending on the grace and mercy of my Savior, Jesus. Most of us, I am probably safe in saying all of us, have sins that we are proud of. The sins that we are proud of, are quite often the ones we haven't yet identified in ourselves or the ones we've diluted ourselves in to thinking is not sin (a natural form of self-preservation). We are all in the same boat.

So, I have not problems hanging out and signing with all of you hopeless and vile sinners, even you sinners who are gleefully and pridefully living in your sins.

Jesus has been good to me, kind to me, gentle to me, caring, and shown me grace that can't be measured. I've learned that we receive grace for grace.

-Finrock

[eddie]

Good morning sinners.jpg (118.01 KiB) Viewed 2452 times

[eddie]

Not everyone is going to appreciate this because I get the impression some people think they are better than or superior in some way to those who have same sex attractions. But, I would hang out and sing with everyone who has participated in this forum. I don't think I'm better than anyone and I am under no delusions that I'm somehow less sinful then anyone or the same sex attracted person. I'm a hopeless sinner who is depending on the grace and mercy of my Savior, Jesus. Most of us, I am probably safe in saying all of us, have sins that we are proud of. The sins that we are proud of, are quite often the ones we haven't yet identified in ourselves or the ones we've diluted ourselves in to thinking is not sin (a natural form of self-preservation). We are all in the same boat.

So, I have not problems hanging out and signing with all of you hopeless and vile sinners, even you sinners who are gleefully and pridefully living in your sins.

Jesus has been good to me, kind to me, gentle to me, caring, and shown me grace that can't be measured. I've learned that we receive grace for grace.

-Finrock

Are you sure?? Great thoughts Finrock, I appreciate them...

giphy.gif (1.52 MiB) Viewed 2428 times

[Finrock]

> Sunday. Elder William O. Clark preached about 2 hours <​1244​> reproving the Saints for a lack of Sanctity and a want of holy living; enjoining sanctity, solemnity and temperance in the extreme in the rigid sectarian style. I reproved him as Pharisaical and hypocritical; and not edifying the people; and shewed the Saints what Temperance, faith, virtue, charity and truth were. I charged the Saints not to follow the example of the adversary in accusing [others]...if you do not accuse each other God will not accuse you. If you have no accuser you will enter heaven. If you will not accuse me, I will not accuse you. If you will throw a cloak of charity over my sins, I will over yours— for charity covereth a multitude of sins.

Grace for grace.

-Finrock

[David13]

Dude, it ain't a minority . . .you need to wake up.

Prove it.

-Finrock

Prove it is a minority.

You are the one challenging my statement. You said I need to wake up. Wake me up with facts, please.

-Finrock

Homosexuals are a very small minority of the population. Even the most optimistic of the homos admit that it's well under 10%, probably more like 5% of the population.
However, since misery loves company, it had always been vogue amongst homosexuals to state that everyone is homosexual. I guess it was one of those devices to ease the psychological problems associated with that peculiar sin.
However, another vogue has arisen today which probably infects half or more than half the population. That is the mentality, oh, it used to be a sin, but it's all "cool" and ok now, maybe even fashionable.
In fact, one of the big industries infected or infested with the homo agenda has been ... the fashion industry. So it's all a big trendy thing there and that has spilled over into general society.
And, since another great trend that perhaps has always infected our nation is, believe, accept, go along with what everybody else is doing, saying, thinking.
It's easier than thinking for yourself.
But if you do think for yourself, the true answers have been given in posts in this very thread.
dc

[David13]

Not everyone is going to appreciate this because I get the impression some people think they are better than or superior in some way to those who have same sex attractions. But, I would hang out and sing with everyone who has participated in this forum. I don't think I'm better than anyone and I am under no delusions that I'm somehow less sinful then anyone or the same sex attracted person. I'm a hopeless sinner who is depending on the grace and mercy of my Savior, Jesus. Most of us, I am probably safe in saying all of us, have sins that we are proud of. The sins that we are proud of, are quite often the ones we haven't yet identified in ourselves or the ones we've diluted ourselves in to thinking is not sin (a natural form of self-preservation). We are all in the same boat.

So, I have not problems hanging out and signing with all of you hopeless and vile sinners, even you sinners who are gleefully and pridefully living in your sins.

Jesus has been good to me, kind to me, gentle to me, caring, and shown me grace that can't be measured. I've learned that we receive grace for grace.

-Finrock

Are you sure?? Great thoughts Finrock, I appreciate them...

Eddie
Can you tell me why Finrock starts out with the superiority accusation? Is it because anyone here posted that they were superior, or is it simply that Finrock feels inferior or inadequate in his actions which were the basis of his post?
Further, when he posts "We are all in the same boat." after having referenced sins not yet identified, that he is trying to say we are all homosexuals? It sure seems like it. Maybe you could compare that idea with what I just posted above about the latest trends, and a long standing trend amongst homosexuals.
dc

[Finrock]

Not everyone is going to appreciate this because I get the impression some people think they are better than or superior in some way to those who have same sex attractions. But, I would hang out and sing with everyone who has participated in this forum. I don't think I'm better than anyone and I am under no delusions that I'm somehow less sinful then anyone or the same sex attracted person. I'm a hopeless sinner who is depending on the grace and mercy of my Savior, Jesus. Most of us, I am probably safe in saying all of us, have sins that we are proud of. The sins that we are proud of, are quite often the ones we haven't yet identified in ourselves or the ones we've diluted ourselves in to thinking is not sin (a natural form of self-preservation). We are all in the same boat.

So, I have not problems hanging out and signing with all of you hopeless and vile sinners, even you sinners who are gleefully and pridefully living in your sins.

Jesus has been good to me, kind to me, gentle to me, caring, and shown me grace that can't be measured. I've learned that we receive grace for grace.

-Finrock

Are you sure?? Great thoughts Finrock, I appreciate them...

Eddie
Can you tell me why Finrock starts out with the superiority accusation? Is it because anyone here posted that they were superior, or is it simply that Finrock feels inferior or inadequate in his actions which were the basis of his post?
Further, when he posts "We are all in the same boat." after having referenced sins not yet identified, that he is trying to say we are all homosexuals? It sure seems like it. Maybe you could compare that idea with what I just posted above about the latest trends, and a long standing trend amongst homosexuals.
dc

"I'm not going to hang out with those sinners" entails, by necessity, self-righteousness and superiority. Therefore, many people have indicated that they are superior through statements and thoughts such as that.

Grace for grace, David13. You aren't any better than the homosexual. You are living in sin just like the rest of us. You aren't on a separate boat with the elite ones or the sinless ones or the ones who aren't vile and gross sinners who need Jesus. You're here, with the gays, the prideful, the superior, the haughty, the liars, the thieves, the elites, the self-righteous, etc., etc.

-Finrock

[Finrock]

Prove it.

-Finrock

Prove it is a minority.

You are the one challenging my statement. You said I need to wake up. Wake me up with facts, please.

-Finrock

Homosexuals are a very small minority of the population. Even the most optimistic of the homos admit that it's well under 10%, probably more like 5% of the population.
However, since misery loves company, it had always been vogue amongst homosexuals to state that everyone is homosexual. I guess it was one of those devices to ease the psychological problems associated with that peculiar sin.
However, another vogue has arisen today which probably infects half or more than half the population. That is the mentality, oh, it used to be a sin, but it's all "cool" and ok now, maybe even fashionable.
In fact, one of the big industries infected or infested with the homo agenda has been ... the fashion industry. So it's all a big trendy thing there and that has spilled over into general society.
And, since another great trend that perhaps has always infected our nation is, believe, accept, go along with what everybody else is doing, saying, thinking.
It's easier than thinking for yourself.
But if you do think for yourself, the true answers have been given in posts in this very thread.
dc

All these assertions without a lick of evidence.

In any case, you've missed the point. The idea that within the homosexual community there is a militant and a combative minority was being challenged.

-Finrock

[David13]

Not everyone is going to appreciate this because I get the impression some people think they are better than or superior in some way to those who have same sex attractions. But, I would hang out and sing with everyone who has participated in this forum. I don't think I'm better than anyone and I am under no delusions that I'm somehow less sinful then anyone or the same sex attracted person. I'm a hopeless sinner who is depending on the grace and mercy of my Savior, Jesus. Most of us, I am probably safe in saying all of us, have sins that we are proud of. The sins that we are proud of, are quite often the ones we haven't yet identified in ourselves or the ones we've diluted ourselves in to thinking is not sin (a natural form of self-preservation). We are all in the same boat.

So, I have not problems hanging out and signing with all of you hopeless and vile sinners, even you sinners who are gleefully and pridefully living in your sins.

Jesus has been good to me, kind to me, gentle to me, caring, and shown me grace that can't be measured. I've learned that we receive grace for grace.

-Finrock

Are you sure?? Great thoughts Finrock, I appreciate them...

Eddie
Can you tell me why Finrock starts out with the superiority accusation? Is it because anyone here posted that they were superior, or is it simply that Finrock feels inferior or inadequate in his actions which were the basis of his post?
Further, when he posts "We are all in the same boat." after having referenced sins not yet identified, that he is trying to say we are all homosexuals? It sure seems like it. Maybe you could compare that idea with what I just posted above about the latest trends, and a long standing trend amongst homosexuals.
dc

"I'm not going to hang out with those sinners" entails, by necessity, self-righteousness and superiority. Therefore, many people have indicated that they are superior through statements and thoughts such as that.

Grace for grace, David13. You aren't any better than the homosexual. You are living in sin just like the rest of us. You aren't on a separate boat with the elite ones or the sinless ones or the ones who aren't vile and gross sinners who need Jesus. You're here, with the gays, the prideful, the superior, the haughty, the liars, the thieves, the elites, the self-righteous, etc., etc.

-Finrock

Well, first, you are not Eddie, are you? That's first.
Second, no one here posted that remark about "hanging out", did they? In fact, maybe others here won't even know, like I don't know what that term is supposed to mean.

I thought it meant something along the lines of "you forgot to zip up your zipper".

I suppose it has something to do with idling for no apparent or real purpose, loitering, wasting time.

And I'm sure you had some good reason for doing so, even if it was that you were just attracted to that sort of thing.

I can assure you that my reasons for not spending time in such activities have nothing to do with any sense of "superiority" as those who know me realize I have no such sense.

Yes, I'm on the forum. But it's not to associate with any type of sinner. On the contrary, it's to spread truth, encourage the spread of truth, and to try to counter the lies that try to justify, glorify, celebrate and otherwise excuse sin.

To try to encourage any and everyone to accept the truth, the gospel, repentance and the church, for those reasons you may know of.

So indeed I'm in a very different boat than any number of those here.

And nota bene, I DID NOT say a superior, more righteous, prettier, larger, or any other adjective, additive, or expression boat. I said different.
dc

[Finrock]

Are you sure?? Great thoughts Finrock, I appreciate them...

Eddie
Can you tell me why Finrock starts out with the superiority accusation? Is it because anyone here posted that they were superior, or is it simply that Finrock feels inferior or inadequate in his actions which were the basis of his post?
Further, when he posts "We are all in the same boat." after having referenced sins not yet identified, that he is trying to say we are all homosexuals? It sure seems like it. Maybe you could compare that idea with what I just posted above about the latest trends, and a long standing trend amongst homosexuals.
dc

"I'm not going to hang out with those sinners" entails, by necessity, self-righteousness and superiority. Therefore, many people have indicated that they are superior through statements and thoughts such as that.

Grace for grace, David13. You aren't any better than the homosexual. You are living in sin just like the rest of us. You aren't on a separate boat with the elite ones or the sinless ones or the ones who aren't vile and gross sinners who need Jesus. You're here, with the gays, the prideful, the superior, the haughty, the liars, the thieves, the elites, the self-righteous, etc., etc.

-Finrock

Well, first, you are not Eddie, are you? That's first.
Second, no one here posted that remark about "hanging out", did they? In fact, maybe others here won't even know, like I don't know what that term is supposed to mean.

I thought it meant something along the lines of "you forgot to zip up your zipper".

I suppose it has something to do with idling for no apparent or real purpose, loitering, wasting time.

And I'm sure you had some good reason for doing so, even if it was that you were just attracted to that sort of thing.

I can assure you that my reasons for not spending time in such activities have nothing to do with any sense of "superiority" as those who know me realize I have no such sense.

Yes, I'm on the forum. But it's not to associate with any type of sinner. On the contrary, it's to spread truth, encourage the spread of truth, and to try to counter the lies that try to justify, glorify, celebrate and otherwise excuse sin.

To try to encourage any and everyone to accept the truth, the gospel, repentance and the church, for those reasons you may know of.

So indeed I'm in a very different boat than any number of those here.

And nota bene, I DID NOT say a superior, more righteous, prettier, larger, or any other adjective, additive, or expression boat. I said different.
dc

Nice.

Jesus is a loving, meek, and kind person. It was/is amazing to me that even in my most sinful state, Jesus was there with me. I didn't always know it or even believe it, but He was. He never used language that was hurtful, demeaning, or mean spirited. He was extremely kind to me, to my surprise. I thought He would be super angry at me and I even felt that I deserved to be punished and to suffer, but, He said I've punished myself enough and suffered enough. He said that isn't what He does anyways. He's a healer. He binds hearts. He mends the broken and the shattered. He was very understanding of my human condition. He wasn't surprised, upset, or disappointed at all that I was a sinner. He told me that this was a known and an expected condition. He showed me grace, love, goodness, and kindness and that melted my heart and gave me confidence that I could put my trust in Him completely. I want to be like Jesus in all that I do and say.

Singing with sinners doesn't mean that you advocate and support sin. Hanging out, spending time, trying to build bridges, and build on commonalities doesn't mean that you are in support of sin and sinful behavior. When Jesus spent time with me, a vile sinner, and when He hung out with me, a sick sinner, at no point did I think or believe or was it even in my mind that Jesus approved of my sins.

-Finrock

[David13]

Eddie
Can you tell me why Finrock starts out with the superiority accusation? Is it because anyone here posted that they were superior, or is it simply that Finrock feels inferior or inadequate in his actions which were the basis of his post?
Further, when he posts "We are all in the same boat." after having referenced sins not yet identified, that he is trying to say we are all homosexuals? It sure seems like it. Maybe you could compare that idea with what I just posted above about the latest trends, and a long standing trend amongst homosexuals.
dc

"I'm not going to hang out with those sinners" entails, by necessity, self-righteousness and superiority. Therefore, many people have indicated that they are superior through statements and thoughts such as that.

Grace for grace, David13. You aren't any better than the homosexual. You are living in sin just like the rest of us. You aren't on a separate boat with the elite ones or the sinless ones or the ones who aren't vile and gross sinners who need Jesus. You're here, with the gays, the prideful, the superior, the haughty, the liars, the thieves, the elites, the self-righteous, etc., etc.

-Finrock

Well, first, you are not Eddie, are you? That's first.
Second, no one here posted that remark about "hanging out", did they? In fact, maybe others here won't even know, like I don't know what that term is supposed to mean.

I thought it meant something along the lines of "you forgot to zip up your zipper".

I suppose it has something to do with idling for no apparent or real purpose, loitering, wasting time.

And I'm sure you had some good reason for doing so, even if it was that you were just attracted to that sort of thing.

I can assure you that my reasons for not spending time in such activities have nothing to do with any sense of "superiority" as those who know me realize I have no such sense.

Yes, I'm on the forum. But it's not to associate with any type of sinner. On the contrary, it's to spread truth, encourage the spread of truth, and to try to counter the lies that try to justify, glorify, celebrate and otherwise excuse sin.

To try to encourage any and everyone to accept the truth, the gospel, repentance and the church, for those reasons you may know of.

So indeed I'm in a very different boat than any number of those here.

And nota bene, I DID NOT say a superior, more righteous, prettier, larger, or any other adjective, additive, or expression boat. I said different.
dc

Nice.

Jesus is a loving, meek, and kind person. It was/is amazing to me that even in my most sinful state, Jesus was there with me. I didn't always know it or even believe it, but He was. He never used language that was hurtful, demeaning, or mean spirited. He was extremely kind to me, to my surprise. I thought He would be super angry at me and I even felt that I deserved to be punished and to suffer, but, He said I've punished myself enough and suffered enough. He said that isn't what He does anyways. He's a healer. He binds hearts. He mends the broken and the shattered. He was very understanding of my human condition. He wasn't surprised, upset, or disappointed at all that I was a sinner. He told me that this was a known and an expected condition. He showed me grace, love, goodness, and kindness and that melted my heart and gave me confidence that I could put my trust in Him completely. I want to be like Jesus in all that I do and say.

Singing with sinners doesn't mean that you advocate and support sin. Hanging out, spending time, trying to build bridges, and build on commonalities doesn't mean that you are in support of sin and sinful behavior. When Jesus spent time with me, a vile sinner, and when He hung out with me, a sick sinner, at no point did I think or believe or was it even in my mind that Jesus approved of my sins.

-Finrock

Well, perhaps you are an exception.

Myself, my experience was different. I was just struck by lightening.

The homosexual agenda is not ... Jesus, nor are they Jesus like. They demand and insist that you accept, encourage, maybe even participate in their sins. If you were "hanging out" with drinkers and dopers, there is no doubt in my mind that they offered, encouraged, challenged and otherwise attempted to cajole you into participation in their vices. You may well have even been tempted. A lesser person may well have partaken. But that's a good reason to avoid such situations just based on that.

Unless you were strident enough to encourage them to change their ways. That's what I had always done getting anywhere near to those situations, as subtly as I could.
dc

[Alaris]

Eddie
Can you tell me why Finrock starts out with the superiority accusation? Is it because anyone here posted that they were superior, or is it simply that Finrock feels inferior or inadequate in his actions which were the basis of his post?
Further, when he posts "We are all in the same boat." after having referenced sins not yet identified, that he is trying to say we are all homosexuals? It sure seems like it. Maybe you could compare that idea with what I just posted above about the latest trends, and a long standing trend amongst homosexuals.
dc

"I'm not going to hang out with those sinners" entails, by necessity, self-righteousness and superiority. Therefore, many people have indicated that they are superior through statements and thoughts such as that.

Grace for grace, David13. You aren't any better than the homosexual. You are living in sin just like the rest of us. You aren't on a separate boat with the elite ones or the sinless ones or the ones who aren't vile and gross sinners who need Jesus. You're here, with the gays, the prideful, the superior, the haughty, the liars, the thieves, the elites, the self-righteous, etc., etc.

-Finrock

Well, first, you are not Eddie, are you? That's first.
Second, no one here posted that remark about "hanging out", did they? In fact, maybe others here won't even know, like I don't know what that term is supposed to mean.

I thought it meant something along the lines of "you forgot to zip up your zipper".

I suppose it has something to do with idling for no apparent or real purpose, loitering, wasting time.

And I'm sure you had some good reason for doing so, even if it was that you were just attracted to that sort of thing.

I can assure you that my reasons for not spending time in such activities have nothing to do with any sense of "superiority" as those who know me realize I have no such sense.

Yes, I'm on the forum. But it's not to associate with any type of sinner. On the contrary, it's to spread truth, encourage the spread of truth, and to try to counter the lies that try to justify, glorify, celebrate and otherwise excuse sin.

To try to encourage any and everyone to accept the truth, the gospel, repentance and the church, for those reasons you may know of.

So indeed I'm in a very different boat than any number of those here.

And nota bene, I DID NOT say a superior, more righteous, prettier, larger, or any other adjective, additive, or expression boat. I said different.
dc

Nice.

Jesus is a loving, meek, and kind person. It was/is amazing to me that even in my most sinful state, Jesus was there with me. I didn't always know it or even believe it, but He was. He never used language that was hurtful, demeaning, or mean spirited. He was extremely kind to me, to my surprise. I thought He would be super angry at me and I even felt that I deserved to be punished and to suffer, but, He said I've punished myself enough and suffered enough. He said that isn't what He does anyways. He's a healer. He binds hearts. He mends the broken and the shattered. He was very understanding of my human condition. He wasn't surprised, upset, or disappointed at all that I was a sinner. He told me that this was a known and an expected condition. He showed me grace, love, goodness, and kindness and that melted my heart and gave me confidence that I could put my trust in Him completely. I want to be like Jesus in all that I do and say.

Singing with sinners doesn't mean that you advocate and support sin. Hanging out, spending time, trying to build bridges, and build on commonalities doesn't mean that you are in support of sin and sinful behavior. When Jesus spent time with me, a vile sinner, and when He hung out with me, a sick sinner, at no point did I think or believe or was it even in my mind that Jesus approved of my sins.

-Finrock

I have to admit I've avoiding giving this thread a second look. No doubt the adversary is pushing the gay agenda as far as he can, not similar to, but exactly like Sodom and Gomorrah...until there will be knocks at our doors with demands of complete compliance. This used to be a far-fetched scenario years ago. No longer.

Finrock's post above is beautiful. I could restate his first paragraph and sign my own name to it. Thank you for that wonderful perspective.

HOWever...we cannot relent.. We cannot give even the appearance of anything beyond loving and accepting the sinner without ever accepting or embracing the sin.

If this call was made by inspired men, great. Homosexuality is sin. Someone with the Priesthood signed off on this by the Spirit. Good. I should pray about it and get a confirmation on it.

However, the reason I have been avoiding looking at this or praying about it is my fear that this ever increasing pressure is causing us to cave at the pressure to any degree of unrighteousness.

[eddie]

Not everyone is going to appreciate this because I get the impression some people think they are better than or superior in some way to those who have same sex attractions. But, I would hang out and sing with everyone who has participated in this forum. I don't think I'm better than anyone and I am under no delusions that I'm somehow less sinful then anyone or the same sex attracted person. I'm a hopeless sinner who is depending on the grace and mercy of my Savior, Jesus. Most of us, I am probably safe in saying all of us, have sins that we are proud of. The sins that we are proud of, are quite often the ones we haven't yet identified in ourselves or the ones we've diluted ourselves in to thinking is not sin (a natural form of self-preservation). We are all in the same boat.

So, I have not problems hanging out and signing with all of you hopeless and vile sinners, even you sinners who are gleefully and pridefully living in your sins.

Jesus has been good to me, kind to me, gentle to me, caring, and shown me grace that can't be measured. I've learned that we receive grace for grace.

-Finrock

Are you sure?? Great thoughts Finrock, I appreciate them...

Eddie
Can you tell me why Finrock starts out with the superiority accusation? I don't think the context of his remark was meant in a negative way.
Is it because anyone here posted that they were superior, or is it simply that Finrock feels inferior or inadequate in his actions which were the basis of his post? All of your comments on this subject have made perfect sense to me! This subject is very emotional. Did I tell you that I've been teaching seminary? We studied the book of Mormon this year and of course when you teach, you study! I think of Enos and how he cried out for forgiveness, I know I cry out for forgiveness, are we all not beggers?
Further, when he posts "We are all in the same boat." after having referenced sins not yet identified, that he is trying to say we are all homosexuals? It sure seems like it. I don't think thats what he meant. Finrock can be very irritating ( sorry Finrock) but he has a truly sincere remarkable side to him. Studying the Book Of Mormon in order to teach, has made me a softer kinder person, ( except a couple of posts ago when I did get angry, LOL! Converts to the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ are amazing people, I was born into the church, If not I don't think I would have been as valiant as you converts, you are burning with testimony and it has strengthened mine. Thank-you!
Maybe you could compare that idea with what I just posted above about the latest trends, and a long standing trend amongst homosexuals.
dc I know of their agenda.

[eddie]

This is pictures from the San Francisco Gay Men's Choir page

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[eddie]

Another picture on their facebook page....

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[PressingForward]

I’m sure those pics will be in the next issue of LDSLIVING praising building better bridges, or loving harder longer, or whatever the saying is worshiping queers this week

[kirtland r.m.]

I'm lost for words.
What is happening to my church?

Take comfort in Doctrine and Covenants Section 13. At least we know he gospel will not be taken from the earth again. I live in the Salt Lake Valley. One year about ten years or more ago, I heard that the person responsible for the July 24th Salt Lake Pioneer day Porade said they were working to make the parade "less Mormony". We can be too inclusive. Not trying to steady the ark here, just saying.The quote I just put up on another post fits here as well.
The revelations which Joseph Smith has given to this people were given to him by Jesus Christ, the Savior of the world; and this people cannot be blessed if they lightly esteem any of them, but they will lose the Spirit, and sorrow and vexation will come into their families. The Lord designs that we shall be separate and distinct from every other people, and wishes to make us His peculiar people, and to raise up for himself a pure seed who will keep His law and walk in His statutes. (Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses 11: 211.)
We need to be that shining city on a hill. We need to stand out. This is a little creepy.

[kirtland r.m.]

Yeap, this is just the inevitable consequences of declaring that "identifying as a homosexual" is not sin.

Oh look here, now this crap is in "Preach My Gospel"
https://www.lds.org/manual/preach-my-go ... s?lang=eng

"Experiencing same-sex attraction or identifying as gay, lesbian, or bisexual is not a sin and does not prohibit one from participating in the Church, holding callings, or attending the temple."
Yet they still say:
Have you ever committed a homosexual transgression? [Note: A person who answers yes to either of these questions must be interviewed by the mission president before being baptized.]

Talk about confusing!! Seriously how many people "identify" as homosexual, yet don't do anything homosexual . . .what a piece of crap.

I keep saying and I'll say it again this will continue until it's either fully accepted or fully rejected, this "middle way" leads to nowhere. It WON'T satisfy the homosexuals and it just makes every other good Christian confused.

How long until we have a EQP who "identifies" as a homosexual? What about a Bishop who "identifies" as a homosexual? A Stake President? When do we have a GA who "identifies" as a homosexual?

Remember, kids "identifying" is not a sin (or so the Church claims-which is a load of crap). So if "identifying" is not a sin-it means one can be a homosexual Bishop, a homosexual SP, a homosexual Mission President, a homosexual GA . . .as long as we just add the caveat that they don't "practice it". Lol, what a load of crap.

This finally stops when the membership revolts and doesn't sustain the homosexual Bishop, homosexual YMP, or homosexual EQP . . .unless and until the membership revolts . . .bye, bye. Might as well join the Community of Christ . . . b/c that's the direction we are head.

It won't be long now . . .b/c it's in Preach My Gospel you are now training something like 40,000 youth a year that identifying is not a sin, what happens when they become the leaders of the Church?

B/c certainly when I was a missionary, EVERYONE knew someone who "identified" as a homosexual as living in sin . . .stick a fork in it. My bet, when Christ comes, he won't be too pleased with His Church . . .but that ain't my problem-feel sorry for the leaders who have let this in however, the blood of the Saints sins will be laid at their feet.

You know, I just gotta say it, what if I identify as a rapist, and a fill in the blank. Just as long as I don't act upon them I am not sinning? I agree, that kind of thought is a bridge too far.

[ajax]

I’m sure those pics will be in the next issue of LDSLIVING praising building better bridges, or loving harder longer, or whatever the saying is worshiping queers this week

I often wonder if I'm among adults here or or middle school teenagers.