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Steadying the Ark

Posted: June 25th, 2018, 11:17 pm
by SJR3t2

Re: Steadying the Ark

Posted: June 25th, 2018, 11:39 pm
by The Airbender
In summary, even though things were being done in the wrong way (transporting the ark), they were being done by the right people. It is not, then, our place to try and correct the church leadership, even if we can clearly see that they are not doing what the scriptures or former prophets said to do.

Am I close? Stay in the boat, even if the crew are lost and forget where they are going because they Lord will direct the wind and waves.

Re: Steadying the Ark

Posted: June 26th, 2018, 9:28 am
by mes5464
My take on the post is that we should seek to do things of our own accord and not wait for God to command us in all things.

Re: Steadying the Ark

Posted: June 26th, 2018, 12:43 pm
by illyume
mes5464 wrote: June 26th, 2018, 9:28 am My take on the post is that we should seek to do things of our own accord and not wait for God to command us in all things.
That seems to be almost the exact opposite of what the steadying-the-ark story teaches, though!

Re: Steadying the Ark

Posted: June 26th, 2018, 2:28 pm
by Jesef
"Steadying the Ark" is a horrible analogy from OT times, applied ad nauseam to basically and fearfully teach "you better not step out of line or God will smite you" - it's the Angry Sky/Tribal God paradigm - and I don't believe God is really like that, at all. If you do, have at it - I feel sorry for you - for you are living in an imaginary world of fear, shame, guilt, and perfectionism, i.e. God doesn't love or value you unless you are perfectly compliant/obedient.

Re: Steadying the Ark

Posted: June 26th, 2018, 3:49 pm
by mes5464
illyume wrote: June 26th, 2018, 12:43 pm
mes5464 wrote: June 26th, 2018, 9:28 am My take on the post is that we should seek to do things of our own accord and not wait for God to command us in all things.
That seems to be almost the exact opposite of what the steadying-the-ark story teaches, though!
I wasn't talking about the allegory, I was talking about the post. The poster's point was one of, "God expects us to act without having to be commanded."

Re: Steadying the Ark

Posted: June 27th, 2018, 10:23 am
by SJR3t2
Doctrine and Covenants (LDS 58:26) (RLDS 58) (Kirtland 18) For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward.

Re: Steadying the Ark

Posted: June 27th, 2018, 12:12 pm
by Jesef
I think it would be funny if the guy who steadied the ark just happened/coincidentally/randomly to have a heart attack or aneurysm at that moment and this was the cultural explanation for it (i.e. not the real reason, just superstition actually). And here we are thousands of years later using it as a prooftext for whatever we think it suits.

Re: Steadying the Ark

Posted: June 27th, 2018, 12:53 pm
by Blessed
The Ark was a pretty specific case and there were pretty specific instructions about "Thou shall not touchy." We don;t know why, we don't know by what principles the Ark was able to devastate enemy armies. I't as likely the instruction was similar to telling an aborigine not to touch a high voltage fence.

The modern equating of questioning church leaders to be "steadying the ark" is quite a stretch, and one that is meant to bring people into compliance, rather than educating and "gentle persuasion".

Re: Steadying the Ark

Posted: June 27th, 2018, 10:27 pm
by brianj
Knowing a bit about electricity and a bit about the ark, I think I know how Uzzah died. The ark was a few pieces of shittim wood attached to form a box. Wood is in insulator. The inside and outside of this box were both plated with gold, which is a conductor. So we had two conductors separated by an insulator. That's what is known in the world of electronics as a capacitor. In the dry desert environment it would have been a matter of life and death to handle this thing correctly as static electricity charged this capacitor. The Biblical description is that the ark wasn't even touched when not at rest; wood staves were put through rings on each side of the ark and those staves were held by the priests instead of the ark.

I know God can do anything with His power alone, but I believe that at least sometimes God uses natural forces. Stress is allowed to build in fault lines or magma chambers that can be released when an earthquake or eruption is needed. In the case of Uzzah I strongly suspect that he grounded the ark, getting hit with such a big jolt of electricity that his heart stopped beating.

The only use of the ark in combat that I recall is the capture of Jericho. In that case priests walked around the temple seven times then the people shouted and the walls fell. I don't have an explanation for this, but I don't think it was anything supernaturally associated with the ark. It was the power of God exercised in a way that currently defies explanation.

Re: Steadying the Ark

Posted: June 28th, 2018, 5:16 am
by marc
My thoughts:
Numbers 4:15 And when Aaron and his sons have made an end of covering the sanctuary, and all the vessels of the sanctuary, as the camp is to set forward; after that, the sons of Kohath shall come to bear it: but they shall not touch any holy thing, lest they die. These things are the burden of the sons of Kohath in the tabernacle of the congregation.
The sons of Kohath were Levites. Uzzah was the son of Abinadab and brother of Eleazar who was anointed to keep the Ark.
1 Samuel 7:1 And the men of Kirjath-jearim came, and fetched up the ark of the Lord, and brought it into the house of Abinadab in the hill, and sanctified Eleazar his son to keep the ark of the Lord.
Only Levites who had sanctified themselves were given authority to handle the ark on pain of death. While Eleazar and not Uzzah was anointed to keep the ark, Uzzah paid a hefty price for having touched it. But being of the same family, there is no doubt in my mind that he understood the Lord's commandments regarding its handling. But the blame is not Uzzah's alone.
1 Chronicles 15: 11 And David called for Zadok and Abiathar the priests, and for the Levites, for Uriel, Asaiah, and Joel, Shemaiah, and Eliel, and Amminadab,

12 And said unto them, Ye are the chief of the fathers of the Levites: sanctify yourselves, both ye and your brethren, that ye may bring up the ark of the Lord God of Israel unto the place that I have prepared for it.

13 For because ye did it not at the first, the Lord our God made a breach upon us, for that we sought him not after the due order.

14 So the priests and the Levites sanctified themselves to bring up the ark of the Lord God of Israel.

15 And the children of the Levites bare the ark of God upon their shoulders with the staves thereon, as Moses commanded according to the word of the Lord.
So David acknowledges that he erred in the sight of the Lord, or rather placed the charge solely on the Levites for the breach. In other words, he put the blame squarely on the priests for their dereliction of duty. The rest is history. So who has the greater evil? David, their king for not following proper procedure or the Levite priests for not calling him on it? What does the spirit tell you? The Spirit tells me loud and clear that I am to obey God before man, regardless of his anointing.
D&C 3:7 For, behold, you should not have feared man more than God. Although men set at naught the counsels of God, and despise his words—
Continuing...

Uzzah's priesthood leaders themselves were not following the scriptures. This conclusion is based on three items in the text:

1. King David, not Uzzah, was the responsible party, was in error, and later admits it.

2. Uzzah did what his leaders asked him to do, rather than what the scriptures said he should do, both in moving the ark, and in keeping it from falling. Thus, Uzzah’s core error was following his priesthood/political leaders rather than the scriptures.

3. Underlings were often killed for a king’s misbehavior, further supporting the idea that David, not Uzzah, was at fault; the Lord’s actions were meant primarily as a lesson for David.

Let’s look at the specifics that support this.

First, David is the one at fault. He takes 30,000 soldiers (or more, per the Chronicler) and decides to move the ark to his own city. However, instead of following the prescribed way of moving the ark, that is, by using Levites to carry it on their shoulders (Ex 25:12-14; Num 4:5-6, 15), David follows the example of the Philistines in using a cart to move the ark. He admits his error later, as documented in 1 Chronicles 15 (especially v 13), and when he decides a second time to move the ark, he is careful to follow the prescribed formula. (So, by the way, is Solomon when he moves the ark even later in 1 Kings 8.) David’s expression of fear right after Uzzah’s death and unwillingness to move the ark is further evidence that he knows that his own actions were not right: had this been only Uzzah’s sin, David would have had nothing to fear. I’ve been told that the writer of Chronicles typically works hard to make David look good; the presence of this admission of guilt in Chronicles therefore further attests to its importance and veracity.

Recognizing that the ark was not to be moved on a cart a la Philistins but by Levites on their shoulders then logically leads to the second point: Uzzah, whose family had been ‘sanctified’ (1 Sam 7:1, meaning consecrated) to take care of the ark 20 years earlier, should have been and almost certainly was familiar with rules concerning the ark and its movement. But when his political and priesthood leader asks him to do something, rather than correct David by pointing out relevant scriptures, he acquiesces to David’s wishes. This prioritization of human command over scriptural command was Uzzah’s first error.

Furthermore, some interpreters point out that when the oxen stumbled and the ark tipped, this was not an accident but might well have been a sign that the Lord was NOT happy with the move: remember how earlier cattle knew exactly where the Lord wanted the ark moved back in 1 Sam 6:7-12. The cattle may have been trying to get the ark to stop moving. Since the 1 Sam 6 story describes how the ark ended up at Uzzah’s home, Uzzah could hardly have been ignorant that story or therefore of how when cattle move the ark, the cattle might be under divine influence. So his second error is, possibly, missing the hand of the Lord.

Instead of listening to the scriptures and to this perhaps indirect voice of the Lord, Uzzah seeks to carry out the will of his leader, that is, to keep the ark moving to its new home, despite the incorrect nature of the transport. To meet this leader-imposed (not self-imposed) goal, he naturally reaches out to keep the ark from resting or falling. Touching the ark was prohibited by anyone but Levites, on pain of death (Num 4:15). Perhaps Uzzah did not know this; more likely he did know it but felt that following the commandment of his king was more important at the time. At Uzzah’s touching the sacred ark, the Lord’s anger bursts out against the touching, and possibly the moving process, and Uzzah is killed. (Perez-uzzah means “the outburst against Uzzah”.) This was a surprise to David, who did not previously understand that such an action was worthy of death, and so the move is halted.

David’s surprise, anger, and fear — and later admission of error and change of behavior – provide strong evidence that the Lord’s outburst was not just against Uzzah but against David as well. Importantly, the idea that Uzzah was being punished for David’s guilt is supported by the story told in 2 Sam 24, where 70,000 innocent people die because of David’s sinful decision to conduct a census. Many times in the Old Testament, kings are held responsible for leading their people astray into sin, and in 2 Sam 24 the sins of a king are directly the cause of the death of many people, by the hand of the Lord. Uzzah’s death may be one more example of this principle: David, after all, is the responsible adult here, not Uzzah, but 2 Sam 24 shows that David’s culpability doesn’t necessarily mean David directly suffers for his sins. By the converse, Uzzah’s death doesn’t mean he is the only one at fault, or even the principal one at fault.

The message, then, is that if one blindly follows our priesthood leaders rather than being aware of God’s word and following it, one could be struck with death.

Re: Steadying the Ark

Posted: June 28th, 2018, 5:40 am
by Kingdom of ZION
brianj wrote: June 27th, 2018, 10:27 pm Knowing a bit about electricity and a bit about the ark, I think I know how Uzzah died. The ark was a few pieces of shittim wood attached to form a box. Wood is in insulator. The inside and outside of this box were both plated with gold, which is a conductor. So we had two conductors separated by an insulator. That's what is known in the world of electronics as a capacitor. In the dry desert environment it would have been a matter of life and death to handle this thing correctly as static electricity charged this capacitor. The Biblical description is that the ark wasn't even touched when not at rest; wood staves were put through rings on each side of the ark and those staves were held by the priests instead of the ark.

I know God can do anything with His power alone, but I believe that at least sometimes God uses natural forces. Stress is allowed to build in fault lines or magma chambers that can be released when an earthquake or eruption is needed. In the case of Uzzah I strongly suspect that he grounded the ark, getting hit with such a big jolt of electricity that his heart stopped beating.

The only use of the ark in combat that I recall is the capture of Jericho. In that case priests walked around the temple seven times then the people shouted and the walls fell. I don't have an explanation for this, but I don't think it was anything supernaturally associated with the ark. It was the power of God exercised in a way that currently defies explanation.
You might want to look at the resonance of marching feet and trumpet blowing. Sure standing on a bridge is much easier to see such things, but the foreknowledge of G_d is greater then all of our knowledge conbined!

Re: Steadying the Ark

Posted: June 28th, 2018, 5:57 am
by Kingdom of ZION
marc wrote: June 28th, 2018, 5:16 am My thoughts:
Numbers 4:15 And when Aaron and his sons have made an end of covering the sanctuary, and all the vessels of the sanctuary, as the camp is to set forward; after that, the sons of Kohath shall come to bear it: but they shall not touch any holy thing, lest they die. These things are the burden of the sons of Kohath in the tabernacle of the congregation.
The sons of Kohath were Levites. Uzzah was the son of Abinadab and brother of Eleazar who was anointed to keep the Ark.
1 Samuel 7:1 And the men of Kirjath-jearim came, and fetched up the ark of the Lord, and brought it into the house of Abinadab in the hill, and sanctified Eleazar his son to keep the ark of the Lord.
Only Levites who had sanctified themselves were given authority to handle the ark on pain of death. While Eleazar and not Uzzah was anointed to keep the ark, Uzzah paid a hefty price for having touched it. But being of the same family, there is no doubt in my mind that he understood the Lord's commandments regarding its handling. But the blame is not Uzzah's alone.
1 Chronicles 15: 11 And David called for Zadok and Abiathar the priests, and for the Levites, for Uriel, Asaiah, and Joel, Shemaiah, and Eliel, and Amminadab,

12 And said unto them, Ye are the chief of the fathers of the Levites: sanctify yourselves, both ye and your brethren, that ye may bring up the ark of the Lord God of Israel unto the place that I have prepared for it.

13 For because ye did it not at the first, the Lord our God made a breach upon us, for that we sought him not after the due order.

14 So the priests and the Levites sanctified themselves to bring up the ark of the Lord God of Israel.

15 And the children of the Levites bare the ark of God upon their shoulders with the staves thereon, as Moses commanded according to the word of the Lord.
So David acknowledges that he erred in the sight of the Lord, or rather placed the charge solely on the Levites for the breach. In other words, he put the blame squarely on the priests for their dereliction of duty. The rest is history. So who has the greater evil? David, their king for not following proper procedure or the Levite priests for not calling him on it? What does the spirit tell you? The Spirit tells me loud and clear that I am to obey God before man, regardless of his anointing.
D&C 3:7 For, behold, you should not have feared man more than God. Although men set at naught the counsels of God, and despise his words—
Continuing...

Uzzah's priesthood leaders themselves were not following the scriptures. This conclusion is based on three items in the text:

1. King David, not Uzzah, was the responsible party, was in error, and later admits it.

2. Uzzah did what his leaders asked him to do, rather than what the scriptures said he should do, both in moving the ark, and in keeping it from falling. Thus, Uzzah’s core error was following his priesthood/political leaders rather than the scriptures.

3. Underlings were often killed for a king’s misbehavior, further supporting the idea that David, not Uzzah, was at fault; the Lord’s actions were meant primarily as a lesson for David.

Let’s look at the specifics that support this.

First, David is the one at fault. He takes 30,000 soldiers (or more, per the Chronicler) and decides to move the ark to his own city. However, instead of following the prescribed way of moving the ark, that is, by using Levites to carry it on their shoulders (Ex 25:12-14; Num 4:5-6, 15), David follows the example of the Philistines in using a cart to move the ark. He admits his error later, as documented in 1 Chronicles 15 (especially v 13), and when he decides a second time to move the ark, he is careful to follow the prescribed formula. (So, by the way, is Solomon when he moves the ark even later in 1 Kings 8.) David’s expression of fear right after Uzzah’s death and unwillingness to move the ark is further evidence that he knows that his own actions were not right: had this been only Uzzah’s sin, David would have had nothing to fear. I’ve been told that the writer of Chronicles typically works hard to make David look good; the presence of this admission of guilt in Chronicles therefore further attests to its importance and veracity.

Recognizing that the ark was not to be moved on a cart a la Philistins but by Levites on their shoulders then logically leads to the second point: Uzzah, whose family had been ‘sanctified’ (1 Sam 7:1, meaning consecrated) to take care of the ark 20 years earlier, should have been and almost certainly was familiar with rules concerning the ark and its movement. But when his political and priesthood leader asks him to do something, rather than correct David by pointing out relevant scriptures, he acquiesces to David’s wishes. This prioritization of human command over scriptural command was Uzzah’s first error.

Furthermore, some interpreters point out that when the oxen stumbled and the ark tipped, this was not an accident but might well have been a sign that the Lord was NOT happy with the move: remember how earlier cattle knew exactly where the Lord wanted the ark moved back in 1 Sam 6:7-12. The cattle may have been trying to get the ark to stop moving. Since the 1 Sam 6 story describes how the ark ended up at Uzzah’s home, Uzzah could hardly have been ignorant that story or therefore of how when cattle move the ark, the cattle might be under divine influence. So his second error is, possibly, missing the hand of the Lord.

Instead of listening to the scriptures and to this perhaps indirect voice of the Lord, Uzzah seeks to carry out the will of his leader, that is, to keep the ark moving to its new home, despite the incorrect nature of the transport. To meet this leader-imposed (not self-imposed) goal, he naturally reaches out to keep the ark from resting or falling. Touching the ark was prohibited by anyone but Levites, on pain of death (Num 4:15). Perhaps Uzzah did not know this; more likely he did know it but felt that following the commandment of his king was more important at the time. At Uzzah’s touching the sacred ark, the Lord’s anger bursts out against the touching, and possibly the moving process, and Uzzah is killed. (Perez-uzzah means “the outburst against Uzzah”.) This was a surprise to David, who did not previously understand that such an action was worthy of death, and so the move is halted.

David’s surprise, anger, and fear — and later admission of error and change of behavior – provide strong evidence that the Lord’s outburst was not just against Uzzah but against David as well. Importantly, the idea that Uzzah was being punished for David’s guilt is supported by the story told in 2 Sam 24, where 70,000 innocent people die because of David’s sinful decision to conduct a census. Many times in the Old Testament, kings are held responsible for leading their people astray into sin, and in 2 Sam 24 the sins of a king are directly the cause of the death of many people, by the hand of the Lord. Uzzah’s death may be one more example of this principle: David, after all, is the responsible adult here, not Uzzah, but 2 Sam 24 shows that David’s culpability doesn’t necessarily mean David directly suffers for his sins. By the converse, Uzzah’s death doesn’t mean he is the only one at fault, or even the principal one at fault.

The message, then, is that if one blindly follows our priesthood leaders rather than being aware of God’s word and following it, one could be struck with death.
If that is correct, then by extension so is the fact that our (your) priesthood leaders CAN be in error, and they might not be following the divine direction given. That following them could be the reason of your death, if you do not stay close to previous revelations given. This makes a strong case for fundamentalist Jews, Christians, and Mormons who hold to the inspired revealed initial gospel rather than the new and improved ideas of men doing things expediently rather than correctly!

Re: Steadying the Ark

Posted: June 28th, 2018, 6:01 am
by Baurak Ale
Marc’s (correct) interpretation reminds me of one of my favorite JST passages:

“And again, if thy foot offend thee, cut it off; for he that is thy standard, by whom thou walkest, if he become a transgressor, he shall be cut off.
“It is better for thee to enter halt into life, than, having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched.
“Therefore, let every man stand or fall by himself and not for another, or not trusting another....
“And if thine eye which seeth for thee, him that is appointed to watch over thee to shew thee light, become a transgressor and offend thee, pluck him out.
“It is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
“For it is better that thyself should be saved, than to be cast into hell with thy brother, where their worm dieth not and where the fire is not quenched” (JST Mark 9:42-44,46-48).

Re: Steadying the Ark

Posted: June 28th, 2018, 1:23 pm
by Jesef
The God you (Baurak Ale & Marc) are presenting is VERY austere & very tribal. Why so many souls on earth just wasting space?

Re: Steadying the Ark

Posted: June 28th, 2018, 1:56 pm
by Baurak Ale
The worth of every soul is great in the sight of the Lord, Jesef. So how do you reconcile the scriptures I quoted that portray an “austere & very tribal,” as you claim, with the one who spoke the words with which I here began? The truth of God’s nature, His government, and even our own souls is lost in an incomplete picture of the eternal plan of happiness. God is more liberal in His views and boundless in His mercies than we may believe him to be, but also more severe to the workers of iniquity than we may believe Him to be as well. I don’t claim to know God fully, do you? I think we both sense different aspects of one being in our descriptions thus far.

Re: Steadying the Ark

Posted: June 28th, 2018, 3:24 pm
by marc
Jesef wrote: June 28th, 2018, 1:23 pm The God you (Baurak Ale & Marc) are presenting is VERY austere & very tribal. Why so many souls on earth just wasting space?
In a nutshell:
Helaman 12:6 Behold, they do not desire that the Lord their God, who hath created them, should rule and reign over them; notwithstanding his great goodness and his mercy towards them, they do set at naught his counsels, and they will not that he should be their guide.
King David and his Levite priests certainly presented themselves as having set at naught his laws.

Re: Steadying the Ark

Posted: June 28th, 2018, 4:00 pm
by ajax
Jesef wrote: June 27th, 2018, 12:12 pm I think it would be funny if the guy who steadied the ark just happened/coincidentally/randomly to have a heart attack or aneurysm at that moment and this was the cultural explanation for it (i.e. not the real reason, just superstition actually). And here we are thousands of years later using it as a prooftext for whatever we think it suits.
Lol. Probably. Also the "kill 'em all" battles supposedly God signed off on. The winners write history, and more often than not whitewash it and use the name of God to justify nastiness. We see it today; lots of armies marching around supposedly in the name of God. And we happily sing Battle Hymn of the Republic without thought as part of worshiping God.

Re: Steadying the Ark

Posted: June 28th, 2018, 5:01 pm
by Jesef
Baurak Ale wrote: June 28th, 2018, 1:56 pm The worth of every soul is great in the sight of the Lord, Jesef. So how do you reconcile the scriptures I quoted that portray an “austere & very tribal,” as you claim, with the one who spoke the words with which I here began? The truth of God’s nature, His government, and even our own souls is lost in an incomplete picture of the eternal plan of happiness. God is more liberal in His views and boundless in His mercies than we may believe him to be, but also more severe to the workers of iniquity than we may believe Him to be as well. I don’t claim to know God fully, do you? I think we both sense different aspects of one being in our descriptions thus far.
So you say/think/believe. Many scriptures are likely wrong, in the sense of being inaccurate. They reflect the opinions and culture of the people who wrote them but not necessarily universal, objective, or eternal reality. And yet we quote them, confirmation bias the contradictions, & assume they are Golden sources of truth.

Re: Steadying the Ark

Posted: June 30th, 2018, 8:55 am
by Benjamin_LK
Steadying the ark is where people take it upon themselves to do something their way rather than how God commanded out of personal pride, because they feel that their way is better. There's plenty of that now in all segments of society, from people who downplay unchastity in about every form to those who push for priesthood authority, dismiss gender differences, etc.