LDS Freedom Forum

My wife and I currently teach primary and one of our young children brought up a good question recently that I had never considered – we are teaching them the story of Moses right now and one of the kids asked a very good question that my wife and I weren’t sure how to answer… in the Bible, God allegedly sends down a dark mist that kills the first born of every household unless they have lamb’s blood smeared over the top of their door in order to convince Pharaoh to free the Israelites and soften his heart while in the Book of Mormon, God has Nephi kill Laban so that an entire nation does not dwindle in chains and unbelief. The question was this: why would God have Laban killed for what he was doing but not Pharaoh? God has Nephi kill Laban so that a nation didn't 'dwindle in unbelief' but he himself kills all the first born in the land of Egypt to try and soften Pharaoh’s heart to let the Israelites go free and to end their slavery while bringing 10 plagues of death and destruction to all of Egypt because of one man? We didn't have an answer. Anyone wanna take this one up?

Yeah, it's kinda like why didn't God kill Stalin or Hitler before they killed millions. The answer probably is: God doesn't kill people; and (also probably), the consequences of killing someone aren't that "permanent", and, therefore, don't warrant divine intervention. This answer seems to fit the actual evidence of history.

Col. Flagg wrote: ↑June 19th, 2018, 5:36 pm My wife and I currently teach primary and one of our young children brought up a good question recently that I had never considered – we are teaching them the story of Moses right now and one of the kids asked a very good question that my wife and I weren’t sure how to answer… in the Bible, God allegedly sends down a dark mist that kills the first born of every household unless they have lamb’s blood smeared over the top of their door in order to convince Pharaoh to free the Israelites amd soften his heart while in the Book of Mormon, God has Nephi kill Laban so that an entire nation does not dwindle in chains and unbelief. The question was this: why would God have Laban killed for what he was doing but not Pharaoh? God has Nephi kill Laban so that a nation didn't 'dwindle in unbelief' but he himself kills all the first born in the land of Egypt to try and soften Pharaoh’s heart to let the Israelites go free and to end their slavery while bringing 10 plagues of death and destruction to all of Egypt because of one man? We didn't have an answer. Anyone wanna take this one up?

My initial thought was "good question." As I pondered for a moment, I then began to think that God's purpose i.e. His work and glory is to bring to pass immortality and eternal life of man. So taking a look at it from that perspective, I believe it is because on the one hand, God was preparing the Israelites to accept Him. The blood was a type of Christ. God had promised the land of Jerusalem to Abraham and his seed . In order to fulfill that promise he had to show his people power because they had lost faith or no longer looked toward Christ they were very superstitious (having been influenced by Egyptian way of life) The whole saga of Exodus is trying to give the Israelites every opportunity to accept Christ and embrace Him e.g. the golden serpent, and Moses on the mount trying to get the People to see the face of God. Long story short, my guess is that during MOses time he 1. didn't want peole there anymore - they would have died away in sin. Egypt's leadership was a counterfeit to the true priesthood. They, being a wicked people would have believed in the counterfeit o ver the real thing i.e. Christ. 2. By killing pharaoh then the people wouldn't have left, or he would have had to kill another pharaoh and then another. This way he sets his people free from bondage, punishes the Egyptians for their abuses of the Israelites including killing of their male children (remitting justice of the time for the lower law they were living). There is more, but I would be typing for a while and to be honest that is all I feel I can really write on the subject right now.

The dark mist is a fabrication from The Ten Commandments. We know it happened at midnight on the Passover, but not exactly how it happened.

As far as why God didn't whack Laban and had Nephi do it, I suspect that part of it was having Nephi prove that he would do whatever he was commanded to do.

It's so wonderful that your primary children are asking questions and TRUSTING you. So you've already well in having their trust for them to voice what they really think! You've already made half the battle that way! How exciting.

OK, to start out...it helps if you compare this to other things. I have also noticed some interesting comparisons that will help.

For starters...back up a bit. And also INCLUDE the story of Danielle in the Old Testament and him being in the Lions Den, and when the 3 of his friends were thrown into the fiery furnace. Now in the cases of Danielle and his friends they were absolutely faithful and committed. So was Nephi. So were Danielle's friends, Melchior, Caspar, and Balthazar who were thrown in the fiery furnace.

In that story Nebuchadnezzar had provoked the Lord's wrath openly against the committed faithful and innocent twice even after he'd seen the hand of God with Daniel. First he'd thrown Daniel in the Lion's Den and seen the miracle of Danielle not being eaten when he'd clearly seen those lions eat other people and that Daniel was put in the lions den when the lions were hungry. He knew that was a miracle. But at that point the Lord had mercy on him to try to help him even though he'd not good with Daniel in putting him in with the lions. God showed him openly with this and other experiences that he was real with seeing miracles through Danielle not just in the lions den but also with Daniel being one of his 'wisemen' after that. And then the king messed up and despite knowing and openly having seen miracles threw 3 innocent angelic saints whom he knew were also followers of God and Daniel's people into the fiery furnace. Boom...that's it he's done; he has rebelled against open knowledge of God...so his punishment won't be good. Right after that the king is removed and he's shown that someone else will be given his blessings instead. We read that the king as punishment is forced to be homeless for 7 years, eating grass, while mentally insane.

Notice the similarities between Laban and Nebuchadnezzar having known already that they were tampering with the plan of salvation and tampering with interfering with others receiving it.

In the case of Pharaoh...he didn't know about the Gospel. He was still somewhat wicked though...well a lot wicked. But he hadn't known the Gospel and had rejected it openly like Laban and Nebuchadnezzar had. King Noah had also known the Gospel, and was a church member, and left it. We read that King Noah replaced the rightful priests with false priesthood holders whose loyalty was to help him with hedonistic practices and being a winebibber more than following God. (You can explain that in filtered terms to children but still get the idea across.) So we have several examples where it's different for people who knew the Gospel and rejected it, compared to people who never knew about it all. You'll remember that in Laban's example...during part of the week he was meeting with the elders of the Jews, but on the other part of the week, he had his summertime cottage in Babylon using his soldiers to kill and rob. (It wasn't the first time he'd had such an idea to rob, when he robbed Nephi and his brothers...the idea came to him too quickly...and how else would he be paying for the upkeep of 50 soldiers if he wasn't practicing predatorism part of the week, even though he was going to church the other parts of the week.)

There are other parts to consider; in the story of the Israelites leaving Egypt they weren't fully committed to the Gospel yet. And they had children still deciding their futures. So that's why they needed a separation. The Israelites needed to be separate from Egypt/Babylon to prevent their posterity from being led astray. I feel that there is a difference partly in the outcomes and examples this question is realted too because of being or not being based on committment, loyalty, and 'enduring faith'. Some people were still deciding what they want. Some had decided already. They needed the separation so that they could become committed but they had earned the right to have the choice to live the Gospel at least. This has to do with what you've earned to this point. People in our era, people that were Nephi's descendants, and Israelites, despite not always being perfect had earned the right in the Pre-existence through good choices there to have the chance to hear the gospel when they were born. So some people get born with the promise of being able to have the Gospel in their life time or the chance to be born in an era where they can have the chance to accept it. We are told in our day to get out of Babylon spiritually and to help our families come out too. But we also read that Babylon won't exist forever; (see Revelations 16 and 17.)

For now much of the world is still a testing ground for people to choose between good and evil. We need there to be a choice. (It is interesting though that most of the US has already decided to either be good or evil...and I wonder what will happen because of that. Sometimes things happen when people have already decided as a whole whether they want to be good or be bad. Sometimes people don't realize they are choosing bad but they love things that are wicked, and don't realize that loving bad things means you are choosing to be unrepentant.)

We need to choice freely and not be forced. Also the beauty of agency is that when it's used righteously and when we're faithful we are given the chance to ask God for more individual adaptations to our customized life that we might not have if we hadn't lived valiantly. We have a chance to be given more, not just be given a future...but to have more customized adaptations...which is why it's good for us to take advantage of what we have now. If we screw around and waste it, we still might be able to repent later, but we won't have as much as what we would have if we latch on earlier. But in all things being committed totally and really wanted to change can help us gain lost opportunities back, and gain back what we missed if we accept the gospel and wish we'd accepted it earlier.

So sometimes bad people live and people suffer. It's very sad when that happens, but we still need to have agency to choose. People often wonder why Hitler had to be allowed to be alive. But without agency we wouldn't able to progress in the gospel or repent. We also have a big advantage by living in a testing ground where the veil isn't open and where we can choose what we really want. Prioritizing the choice of good or evil when we can't choose everything will shape our future and we need that. So even though its sad that people like Hitler exist and existed, we would still need a chance to prove ourselves.

But Laban, Pharaoh, King Noah, and Nebuchadnezzar during certain time periods only wanted people to be able to choose bad as their only choice. At each of their time periods they had times when they wanted to make it so only bad choices were available and no good choices left. (While Pharaoh didn't know the Gospel, when he'd crossed the line and wanted only evil to exist his future, his people's future, and Egypt's firstborn were then taken away. I think the only reason Pharaoh was spared is to give him a bit more time to have a chance to repent because he wasn't a 'church member' like King Noah, Laban, or had seen miracles and knew the prophet in his day like Nebuchadnezzar.)

But some people want to stomp that out spark of the gospel before it starts, or before people have a chance to receive the promises God gave them. An example is Herod hears that the Messiah...the future KING of Israel will be born in Judea and so he thinks he can cut that off and stomp out the faith before it starts and starts killing babies. Herod tried to stop Jesus from being born, and that couldn't be allowed. (Herod wasn't killed, but instead God sent Joseph and Mary to Egypt for a time. Heavenly Father sometimes uses different means and has individual adaptations, based on what's best for the people at a given time. He can see more than one way of doing things and can measure these means against each other for the best outcome.) Heavenly Father had already given the blessings of being allowed to be part of the faithful to those babies, whether in this life or the next. Even though Herod killed a lot of babies, Heavenly Father can still make sure they receive a future like he told them. So, because Heavenly Father had already given certain promises something needed to be done in delivering in some scriptural stories and 'BEING GIVEN A FUTURE' was promised to the Heavenly Father's children. What's interesting about this is people don't always synonymously think that 'having a future' and 'having the gospel' mean the same thing.

This is way the separation from Babylon can be important when good and evil are available as choices. Right now we're becoming very stricly polarized to either good or evil in our society. This means that the young and innocent need more protection. So a spiritual separation from Babylon is needed now even if its only spiritual at this point.

Heavenly Father had already promised Nephi many things before he separated from his brothers. To be able to give Nephi's children the things he'd promised Nephi, the Lord needed for his young innocent children to be separate from wicked people. But the Lord still didn't give up on the hope that Laman and Lemuel and even Pharaoh would repent and come back. So Laman and Lemuel were given a little time to repent still, even though the Lord knew they would waste it.

So there are times when spiritual separation from the wicked is necessary. And Heavenly Father and Jesus always deliver on their promises. So the Exodus story of Moses and when Nephi separated from Laman and Lemuel are important to in considering them from other angles besides just the Laban angle.

One thing to think about is that when we 'choose to share our testimony' with others, even if its a simple testimony it means we're also 'choosing' at that time for our family and those listening to have a chance to have a future. That's why sharing a testimony is important. And living without knowledge of Jesus or the Gospel can mean not having a future...at least not having a future that doesn't end.

Col. Flagg wrote: ↑June 19th, 2018, 5:36 pm My wife and I currently teach primary and one of our young children brought up a good question recently that I had never considered – we are teaching them the story of Moses right now and one of the kids asked a very good question that my wife and I weren’t sure how to answer… in the Bible, God allegedly sends down a dark mist that kills the first born of every household unless they have lamb’s blood smeared over the top of their door in order to convince Pharaoh to free the Israelites amd soften his heart while in the Book of Mormon, God has Nephi kill Laban so that an entire nation does not dwindle in chains and unbelief. The question was this: why would God have Laban killed for what he was doing but not Pharaoh? God has Nephi kill Laban so that a nation didn't 'dwindle in unbelief' but he himself kills all the first born in the land of Egypt to try and soften Pharaoh’s heart to let the Israelites go free and to end their slavery while bringing 10 plagues of death and destruction to all of Egypt because of one man? We didn't have an answer. Anyone wanna take this one up?

That was a great question. That kid is alert!

My thoughts are this. Pharaoh wasn't killed for the same reason Hitler, Stalin, Mao, or Castro. He was giving them enough rope to hang themselves. What I mean by that is, these type of people were capable of a great deal of wickedness and God wanted to prove to them just how wicked they are. By letting them have their way, there is no denying (on their own part) that they are as wicked and they will be convicted for their wickedness.

This is actually a simple question. If God killed Pharaoh, another one would take his place, and Egypt would've still had thier full might r to pursue Israel if they left. By calling down the 10 plagues, God weakened the Egyptians enough so that Israel could reliably escape with most of their lives intact.

Jesef wrote: ↑June 19th, 2018, 6:12 pm Yeah, it's kinda like why didn't God kill Stalin or Hitler before they killed millions. The answer probably is: God doesn't kill people; and (also probably), the consequences of killing someone aren't that "permanent", and, therefore, don't warrant divine intervention. This answer seems to fit the actual evidence of history.

See, I view this a little differently. Granted these are based on powerful impressions/flashes of intelligence/visions I've received/seen so take these thoughts for what they are worth.

Father God is All in All. Nature kills and nature gives life. Now I'm not saying God is nature, but God is a part of nature and nature is a part of God. In that sense, God does kill people. Things are in motion and there are movements and commotions and events constantly unfolding or coming in to play. People are being born and they are dying at all moments. Things are being destroyed and they are coming in to being at all moments. God is involved in all of these things. There are some uncomfortable implications with God being All in All, however, I think they are only uncomfortable because they are not what we might have considered before or they are new ideas that force us to reexamine our current ideas.

God is bigger, greater, and more encompassing than we might give Him credit.

Nothing is ever done out of malice, hatred, or anger. Things occur as they were planned to occur and the good that God intends gets accomplished. From our narrow perspective we try to understand and to make sense of it and in doing so we often fail. However, if we could view things (past, present, future) as it really is, in its entirety, I believe we would see that hand of God in all things bringing about the good and its purposes.

This is not to say there is no evil/darkness, there is, its just even the darkness is a part of all things and subject to God's purposes, designs, and directions.

I think I slaughtered this thought, but its the best I can do at the moment. Hopefully it has some utility.

-Finrock

One version of viewing this is that things are good and evil from various perspectives. In some spiritual cosmology models I've studied, for example, there are different realms, dimensions, or planes. It's just an idea model - it's literally unprovable, except by your own experience (I haven't met anyone who is able to introduce another person to a higher plane, that's why I say this - or even people experiencing a higher plane together interactively) - but go with me. The Physical Plane is the lowest plane and it is a plane of duality (polar opposites) - positive/negative, good/evil, light/darkness, etc. - the next plane up, which many call the Astral Plane - in LDS theology/mythology we call it the Spirit World - there is still some duality - but the higher you go, the less duality and the more unity or one-ness there is. Higher Dimension encompass the lower dimensions, think of it like concentric circles, with each circle getting larger and circumscribing the smaller circles (just like 3D includes everything 2D which includes everything 1D - well 4D includes everything under it 3D/2D/1D and 5D likewise includes everything less). There are 7 circles or spheres or dimensions/planes and the last or 8th is actually ALL THAT IS or The GREAT I AM, the SOURCE of ALL. This is actually pretty fascinating because the physical plane actually includes 4 dimensions, 3 spatial + 1 time, if you add 7 on top of that you get 11 (it could be 12 actually), but anyway String Theory mathematically predicts 11 or 12 dimension to All reality!!! Math is truly God's language - it doesn't lie - and there are higher and higher levels of it we're just barely discovering or able to comprehend. Anyway, things like killing/murder are evil on the physical plane - but they don't have any lasting/permanent effects on the higher planes - in other words, they are limited in scope. So what we perceive as unconscionable down here - when we get to the other side, it's just a blip, so from higher planes we and Higher plane beings don't see a need to intervene/interfere.

Also, we are probably inter-dimensional beings, meaning there are "pieces" of us (our existence/self) anchored in each of those planes - one way to think about that is we are both a spirit (existing in the Spirit plane) and a body (on the physical plane) at the SAME time - well, think of that being also true on the 6-7 higher dimensions above Spirit/Astral and you get the idea. So there is literally a part of us that is still part or one with the ALL THAT IS (MOST HIGH GOD) - the root or source of our existence - what we call our Divine Spark. Some of this stuff blows the mind. But I've had experiences that confirm a lot of these things. I can't explain it, but I believe there is more and it's something like what I've described. Who knows though, right? Here's the real problem - you can't bring a lot of the higher plane stuff into this plane (the lowest) - why? It literally doesn't translate completely, because we are in a lower subset. Think of it like trying to represent (truly or as best you can) a 3D object using only 2D (that's like a flat surface picture of a 3D spatial object) - now imagine trying to represent 4 or 5 or 6D in 1D. I've had experiences where I come back and all I get to keep is feelings and some transcendent imagery, etc. But it's like sensory overload - I don't even think the human brain has enough storage capacity for some of it - and it's a quantum computer! Think about this, too - where are all your memories (I mean ALL of them) being stored? It ain't your physical brain - too much information - they are being stored in a higher dimension where (relatively speaking) there is infinite storage capacity - it's what we call the Book of Life - and other belief models call it the Akashic Records.

The nation needing to avoid dwindling in unbelief wasn't the Jews. Remember "take your family and flee before Jerusalem is destroyed", and the subsequent destruction.

Er go, the nation needing to avoid dwindling was specifically the Nephites. Even with the record, they ultimately dwindled. Without it, they would never have lasted, and the purpose of the Book of Mormon would have been utterly wasted.

So why couldn't Nephi simply let Laban lay there? No way to convince Zoram to get the plates. And if he did somehow get them, Laban and his soldiers (read: he can slay 50) would have been royally upset and hunted them down.

Two events handled differently because they were different.

Thanks for the replies everyone - there is much to digest. Sure appreciate the words of wisdom and counsel.

Here's a good question to consider, Col.: if God is unchanging (perfect), un-favoring (no respecter of persons), perfect and perfectly equitable/fair/just, as well as merciful/compassionate/benevolent/loving/kind, etc., then why would God interfere or intervene in one circumstance involving peril to people's lives and not in another? Also, why did God have Nephi execute Laban instead of doing it Himself via heart attack or aneurysm, etc.? Why didn't Nephi say, in his dialog with the Spirit, "if you want him dead, then you can kill him (by a thousand means), why do you need me to murder or execute this unconscious (however wicked) man?"

The answer may actually, really lie in, not only our perception of those events, but in the perception of those who have told or retold those events.

And again, why didn't God kill Hitler or Stalin or Genghis Khan or any other number of super-baddies throughout history who raped, pillaged, murdered, and committed genocide? And, why would the scriptures claim that Samuel (a prophet of God) would command Saul and Israel to go commit genocide and literally wipe out every soul, including babies & animals (just to prove obedience/faith?)? It's unconscionable/unfathomable - it's literally unbelievable!

Col. Flagg wrote: ↑June 19th, 2018, 5:36 pm My wife and I currently teach primary and one of our young children brought up a good question recently that I had never considered – we are teaching them the story of Moses right now and one of the kids asked a very good question that my wife and I weren’t sure how to answer… in the Bible, God allegedly sends down a dark mist that kills the first born of every household unless they have lamb’s blood smeared over the top of their door in order to convince Pharaoh to free the Israelites amd soften his heart while in the Book of Mormon, God has Nephi kill Laban so that an entire nation does not dwindle in chains and unbelief. The question was this: why would God have Laban killed for what he was doing but not Pharaoh? God has Nephi kill Laban so that a nation didn't 'dwindle in unbelief' but he himself kills all the first born in the land of Egypt to try and soften Pharaoh’s heart to let the Israelites go free and to end their slavery while bringing 10 plagues of death and destruction to all of Egypt because of one man? We didn't have an answer. Anyone wanna take this one up?

Same reAson as these scriptures: (read this chapter in context)
17 ¶So Abraham prayed unto God: and God healed Abimelech, and his wife, and his maidservants; and they bare children.
18 For the Lord had fast closed up all the wombs of the house of Abimelech, because of Sarah Abraham’s wife.

Firstborn sons are his seed but the destroying angel comes through as the symbols of all first born who haven’t made that “blood covenant” which spares them. So, if you’re a firstborn without the blood covenant (circumcision, I.e.baptism) he kills your posterity a.k.a seals up the womb of that “house” a.k.a. Egypt. I would teach the spiritual concept to them. This is the best application.

Col. Flagg wrote: ↑June 19th, 2018, 5:36 pm My wife and I currently teach primary and one of our young children brought up a good question recently that I had never considered – we are teaching them the story of Moses right now and one of the kids asked a very good question that my wife and I weren’t sure how to answer… in the Bible, God allegedly sends down a dark mist that kills the first born of every household unless they have lamb’s blood smeared over the top of their door in order to convince Pharaoh to free the Israelites amd soften his heart while in the Book of Mormon, God has Nephi kill Laban so that an entire nation does not dwindle in chains and unbelief. The question was this: why would God have Laban killed for what he was doing but not Pharaoh? God has Nephi kill Laban so that a nation didn't 'dwindle in unbelief' but he himself kills all the first born in the land of Egypt to try and soften Pharaoh’s heart to let the Israelites go free and to end their slavery while bringing 10 plagues of death and destruction to all of Egypt because of one man? We didn't have an answer. Anyone wanna take this one up?

Kids often come up with the best questions!

The situations I think are certainly similar, in that both of them presented circumstances in which the agency of "one man" impacted the physical lives of countless others. So how does one explain why God operated so differently in these situations?

In my opinion the answer lies in the difference of people. Jehovah is bound by covenant to keep and preserve the righteous of Israel who likewise honour their covenant responsibilities. The egyptians however, had no covenant bond with God, and were therefore not under the same protection or privilege.

Perhaps this is harder to grasp since the Nephites were yet-unborn in the situation with Laban. But still, it goes to show that God fight's His people's battles - not random gentiles' battles, especially when they are directly opposing and enslaving His people.

What an amazing question to be asked by someone so young!

When you stop believing that everything in the scriptures is inerrant/perfect, and therefore should be used as prooftext and precedent henceforth, a whole world of actual thinking and introspection opens up. Not everything reported in the scriptures is objectively/universally/literally/eternally TRUE. There are all kinds of mistakes, cultural misperceptions, biases, incorrect ideas, etc. For example, the cosmology believed by so many of the prophets was just flat-out wrong - it's the best they had at the time, as far as their culture and science understood - but it wasn't accurate. We have satellite telescopes now, folks! We can see actual galaxies far, far away - at least a Trillion galaxies! We don't need to turn to Abraham or Paul for astronomy/cosmology - because we have better information. And before you start touting their visions - consider the possibility that because they didn't understand math or physics that they didn't truly understand how to put what they saw even into proper context. A lot of these guys were superstitious too. Even Joseph Smith and his family grew up in a "magical thinking" era where good and evil spirits and treasure guardian spirits were everywhere. Just saying we don't have to adopt all their superstitions or cultural misperceptions. Their views on women (inferior) and race (also castes) were simply wrong.

Another possibility is that life is more like a video game or virtual (actually physical) reality Game and we take it quite seriously when we are in it, but outside of it - from a higher or eternal perspective - we see that nothing in here is permanent and therefore ultimately much of it is inconsequential. Things don't seem fair on a small, microcosmic scale - because they aren't. Things are fair on the macrocosmic, large scale - on the eternal scale. This is part of faith, believing that stuff from before (premortal) and stuff coming after (post-mortal) are actually part of the equation, not just the here & now or "this life".