LDS Freedom Forum

food for thought

"Mormons generally believe that they are the Church of the Lamb of God referred to and all other religions are the church of the devil, but is this correct? "

I found this some time ago and thought I'd copy it.
this below was taken from the internet.


""The Lord made a curious statement to Nephi which has never been correctly explained to my knowledge:"



“Behold, there are save two churches only; one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the Devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth. And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the whore of all the earth, and she sat upon many waters; and she had dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people.” (I Nephi 14:10-11)



Mormons generally believe that they are the Church of the Lamb of God referred to and all other religions are the church of the devil, but is this correct? Nephi himself solves the mystery and tells us who it is that belongs to the church of the devil and interestingly, he does not name any particular religion:



“Wherefore, he that fighteth against Zion, both Jew and Gentile, both bond and free, both male and female, shall perish; for THEY ARE THEY WHO ARE THE WHORE of all the earth: for they who are not for me are against me, saith our God.” (2 Nephi 10:16)



Could it really be that many of the LDS themselves make up part of the whore, or the great and abominable church? Yes. The scriptures clearly tell us that anyone that fights the establishment of Zion becomes a part of the whore, or the church of the devil. Else why did Nephi warn us: “And blessed are the Gentiles [The LDS], they of whom the prophet has written; for behold, if it so be that they shall repent and fight not against Zion, and do not unite themselves to that great and abominable church, they shall be saved.” (2 Nephi 6:12)



Since the Great and Abominable Church is composed of those who fight against Zion, we must ask the question, How does one fight against Zion? To understand let us examine some of the ingredients of which Zion will be composed.



When Zion is fully established, it will be an independent entity which will have “no laws but my laws.” (D&C 38:22)



It will be “independent above all other creatures beneath the celestial world.” (D&C 78:14)



Zion will support the principles of freedom and limited government in our Constitution which is for the “protection of all flesh”. (D&C 101: 77)



The saints were told to “buy lands and gather together upon them; and in this way they may establish Zion... . They shall gather together unto the places which I have appointed.” (D&C 101:74 & 67)



Each place where there was a gathering was to be a stake. A stake was not supposed to be 3,000 saints in the midst of a city of 50,000, but it was to be composed of an actual city of saints staked out around the central stake. These stakes are referred to as if the curtains or the strength of Zion.” (D&C 101:21)



“Zion cannot be built up unless it is by the principles of the celestial kingdom.” (D&C 105:5)



In Zion we are told that “it is not given that one man should possess that which is above another, wherewith the world lieth in sin.” (D&C 50:20)



We are told that the Lord “called His people Zion, because they were of one heart and one mind and dwelt in righteousness; and there was no poor among them.” (Moses 7:18)



How many are there in the Church today that actively work for the establishment of the above principles? Unfortunately, many have been excommunicated for doing so. Concerning those who are not for the principles of Christ, he said, “He that is not with me is against me.” (Matt. 12:30)



We are told that the natural man is an enemy to God, and the natural man does indeed rebel against the establishment of Zion. He does not want to gather out of Babylon and be separate from the world for he loves the world. He does not want to be equal in earthly things for he wants to be above his brother. He seeks to rely upon the arm of flesh rather than receive personal revelation. This person whether Mormon or not, who pits his will against Zion, belongs to the church of the devil. The number is legion for many who are for Zion in word are against it in deed.



On the other hand, many non-Mormons belong to the Church of the Lamb of God. These are they who have the fire of freedom burning in their breasts. They believe that all men should have the freedom to worship as they please so long as it does not infringe on the rights of others. They do not believe in establishing an authority for every decision for the final authority is the human spirit in communication with God.



The number of these people are few, and many of them are not members of the Church and some of them are inactive members who would participate if the Church were in order. These freedom loving people who live harmless lives and do many good things of their own free will are the true members of the Church of the Lamb of God even if they presently live in far off Russia or India. The cause of Zion is in the soul of many who have not yet heard the word, for it is written in their hearts.



One of the marks of the Great and Abominable Church is the practice of priestcraft and Nephi gives us a clear insight as to the definition thereof: “He commanded that there shall be no priestcrafts; for, behold, priestcrafts are that men preach and set themselves up for a light unto the world, that they may get gain and praise of the world; but they seek not the welfare of Zion ... . Wherefore if they should have charity they would not suffer the laborer in Zion to perish.” (2 Nephi 26:29-30)



Is there priestcraft in the Church today? Are there those who set themselves up for a light that others must follow or suffer the consequences?



One may answer yes, but at the same time question that this is no more the case today than it was in the days of Joseph Smith or Brigham Young. But is there a difference in the attitude of the authorities today compared with the early days?



If you study the history of the Church, you will note a quite remarkable difference; the main one being the suffocation and strangulation in individual expression, freedom, and spiritual gifts in the Church today.



In 1843 the High Council was quite concerned about the teachings of a certain Elder named Pelatiah Brown even though Joseph Smith called him “one of the wisest old heads we have among us.” He was called up for trial for teaching mysteries not yet revealed. Of this Joseph Smith said, “I did not like the old man being called up for erring in doctrine. It looks too much like the Methodists, and not like the Latter-Day Saints. Methodists have creeds which a man must believe or be asked out of their church. I want the liberty of thinking and believing as I please. It feels so good not to be trammeled. It does not prove that a man is not a good man because he errs in doctrine.” (DHC 5:340)



It is interesting to note that today the Methodists allow greater freedom of thought, whereas the Latter-Day Saints are the ones who ask those whom they believe are erring in doctrine out of the Church.



Let’s examine several other statements of Joseph Smith:



“I stated that the most prominent difference between the Latter-Day Saints and sectarians was, that the latter were all circumscribed by some peculiar creed, which deprived its members the privilege of believing anything not contained therein, whereas the Latter- day Saints have no creed, but are ready to believe all true principles that exist as they are manifest from time to time.” (DHC 5: 215)



“I told him I had no creed to circumscribe my mind; therefore the people did not like me.” (DHC 5:214)



“I want to come up into the presence of God, and learn all things; but the creeds set up stakes, and say, ‘Hitherto shalt thou come; and no further,’ which I cannot subscribe to.” (DHC 6:57)



Brigham Young spoke in a similar vein:



“If they have not yet undivided feelings, they will be chastened until they have them; not only until every one of them shall see for themselves, and prophecy for themselves, have visions for themselves, but be made acquainted with all the principles and laws necessary for them to know, so as to supersede the necessity of anyone teaching them. Is not the time to come when I shall not say to my neighbor, know the Lord, for he will know him as well as I do?” (J. of D. 3: 89)



Notice how Joseph Smith tried to avoid setting himself up as a light above his brethren: “I explained to him that I did not profess to be a prophet any more than every man ought to who professes to be a preacher of righteousness.” (DHC 5:232)



Why did the Lord say, “My people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge ... the people that doth not understand shall fall.” (Hosea 4:6 & 14)



Notice that the Lord tells us that the people must understand. It is not enough to pin our faith on the sleeve of the leaders. Knowing this, the early prophets tried to inspire the people to be as good or better than they were. It is a great temptation for those placed in a leadership position to believe that God has chosen them for an authority rather than a servant. Many of these try to extinguish the lesser lights around them so all the light these little minds have is the radiation from the arm of flesh.



On the contrary, God has ordained that we all share the great light of God who is our source and eventually become great lights ourselves.



Yes, there is a difference in the leadership of the Latter-Day Saints today. Today they say, “Hitherto shalt thou come and no further.” You can believe the works of Joseph Fielding Smith, Talmage, and LeGrande Richards, but if you get a different interpretation out of the scriptures, you must stop and repent or get out.



Today the church does have a creed. It is the creed of the modern authorities of the Church which is essentially this: “The Brethren will never lead you astray. Do not think for yourself, but follow to the letter and think as you are told or get out.” Modern Mormons are circumscribed by this and the result is the present very low, almost nonexistent degree of spiritual manifestations in the Church.



As mentioned earlier, my nephew (and later myself) was called in by his bishop and excommunicated by the High Council within about a week because he believed the scriptures above the opinions of the modern authorities. The Doctrine and Covenants tells us that the High Council is supposed to be split so half of them defend the person on trial, but they were all one voice against him. He had no defense. One of the reasons was that a visiting general authority told the High Council to cut him off before the trial was held. Yea, even the wicked have greater justice in their hearts than this!



In speaking of those who practice priestcraft, Nephi said, “They seek not the welfare of Zion ... . Wherefore, if they should have charity they would not suffer the laborer in Zion to perish.” (2 Nephi 26:29-30)



Who is the “laborer in Zion”? Obviously he is one who is laboring for the cause of Zion and Nephi prophesies that the priestcrafters will cause such laborers to perish. Now these priestcrafters could not be Catholics or Baptists for they have had no laborers for Zion, for they do not even teach of it, so the prophecy can only refer to priestcraft within the church that has the Book of Mormon.



What does the laborer in Zion do? He works to establish celestial principles which are equality through free will, the gathering of Israel, he seeks for revelation from heaven, he seeks the mysteries of the kingdom of God, he seeks to enlighten his fellow men and women, and what happens to such a one? He is “frowned” on by the authorities and if he persists laboring for Zion, he is cut off.



After he is cut off, the atmosphere becomes so heavy between him and his member friends, that he makes no attempt to even go to the mainstream church and often winds up attending some fringe group who will at least receive him. Thus, the laborer in Zion perished and had to travel a strange path."

more food for thought

something else to consider,
also taken from the internet.

"As we watch General Conference we should look for the spirit of prophecy."
not just listen to nice talks

If Jesus himself has said -

3 Nephi 23:1- 4
1 "And now, behold, I say unto you,
that ye ought to search these things.
Yea, a commandment I give unto
you that ye search these things diligently;
for great are the words of Isaiah."

Why does our prophet and church leaders never talk about Isaiah or quote him ?
Could it be that they don't understand him ? and if they don't understand him, do they really have the spirit of prophecy ?

"Wherefore, hearken, O my people, which are of the house of Israel, and give ear unto my words; for because the words of Isaiah are not plain unto you,
nevertheless they are plain unto all those that are filled with the spirit of prophecy "
(2 Nephi 25:4) in part



quote - all below
"As we watch General Conference we should look for the spirit of prophecy."

"The scriptures warn us that in the last days there will be prophets who do not prophesy and seers who do not see (Isaiah 30:10). Jesus also warned that there would be false prophets and an abundance of men teaching their own precepts to get gain, so that even the very elect will be deceived (2 Nephi 26:29; JS Matthew 1:22).

As Latter-day Saints we must learn what a true prophet is and we must learn to discern between true and false prophets lest we also be deceived.

The scriptures provide a standard by which we can all judge.
Simply put, a prophet must have the spirit of prophecy in order to be a true prophet. This is the sign.

As we watch General Conference we should look for the spirit of prophecy. We should measure carefully what is being said. We should pray that those who we sustain as prophets will prophesy and speak prophetically because when prophets and seers, prophesy and see, they become a great benefit to their fellow man (Mosiah 8:18). This is the means whereby we can receive salvation.
If men who are called prophets do not have the spirit of prophecy we can know they are false prophets.
Nephi gives us an important bar by which we can measure:

Wherefore, hearken, O my people, which are of the house of Israel, and give ear unto my words; for because the words of Isaiah are not plain unto you, nevertheless they are plain unto all those that are filled with the spirit of prophecy (2 Nephi 25:4).

All prophets will understand the words of Isaiah.
They will also share the testimony of the Savior and of Nephi and others that the words of Isaiah are great!

When’s the last time you heard an LDS prophet give a talk on the words of Isaiah in General Conference?
When Jesus came to the Nephites, He gave them the “commandment to search these things diligently; for great are the words of Isaiah.”
Do the servants of the Lord today emphasize this same commandment?

Today’s prophets write books such as: Counseling With Our Councils,
The Christmas Train, A Future As Bright As Your Faith, To The Rescue, Forget Me Not, and 21 Principles.

The above may be excellent topics,
but why do today’s LDS prophets not speak or write of Isaiah?
Why do they not rejoice in his words?
Why do they not explain what his words mean?
If these words are so great and so relevant to us in our day, why are the so called prophets
not using their “spirit of prophecy” in a way that would render Isaiah’s vital words easier to understand?

Is it possible that these prophets do not understand the words of Isaiah?
If so, can they be true prophets?
Jesus said “ALL who have the spirit of prophecy” will easily understand Isaiah’s words.
They will comprehend them in plainness. If these prophets rely upon trained scholars to understand Isaiah,
would this be evidence that such men are not true prophets?
I leave that for you to judge."

Joseph Smith jr. restored a church which hold Priesthood keys and priesthood authority, along with ONE PROPHET who heads the church and receives revelation for the whole church.

We may not have what Joseph defined a 'creed' to be, but Joseph certainly established doctrine and expected that it defined our beliefs--an example are the Articles of Faith. Also, our belief in living prophets, priesthood authority, baptism by immersion, to name some. If a person started teaching things that were not part of the doctrine, Joseph Smith jr. had no problem cutting them off, or excommunicating them.

We do the same thing today. If someone is going around teaching doctrines (an example is someone who continues to advocate for the present day practice of polygamy) which are not taught by our living Prophet, then that person is in danger of being excommunicated--the same as in Joseph's day.

We are expected to strive for revelation, but the revelation we receive and accept needs to be in harmony with the doctrines and teachings of the church as taught by our living prophets.

Every member needs to be aware that Satan can deceive them and if they don't recognize this, and stubbornly refuse to be corrected by their leaders (who hold stewardship over them) when they are called in because they've been preaching/living false doctrines, then they run the risk of being cut off from the body of the Saints--but that is their choice.

I choose to live my life by the scriptures and by the Holy Ghost
and by what the spirit teaches and testifies to me of them.
I do not live my life and believe in the "precepts of men"
and in the arm of the flesh.

Be Wary of Man and His Words.
http://www.7witnesses.com/uploads/3/8/9 ... _words.pdf

Do you only see two churches in the world now? I see many. Where is this church of the Lamb of God? Where are these who are “armed with righteousness and with the power of God in great glory”?

No, it doesn’t seem to fit. Must be speaking of the future. It also means the keys are still with the church—the Lord’s church.

Jonesy wrote: ↑June 17th, 2018, 10:03 am Do you only see two churches in the world now? I see many. Where is this church of the Lamb of God? Where are these who are “armed with righteousness and with the power of God in great glory”?

No, it doesn’t seem to fit. Must be speaking of the future. It also means the keys are still with the church—the Lord’s church.

No, He wasn't speaking of some future condition. He is speaking of a universal truth that is true across all time.

12 And it came to pass that I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few, because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore who sat upon many waters; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon all the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small, because of the wickedness of the great whore whom I saw.

Reading all of what the spirit says to Nephi on the matter in context it is very obvious the church of the lamb of god is The church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Those who say otherwise have not received a witness of the truth which is available. There are many many other things that could be said to present a logical conclusion based on what is says in the scriptures but that would prove to be pointless and unproductive to those on the forum. It does not mean the church or members are perfect, but they have received enough grace to continue moving his work forward. Listen to what President Nelson has taught on the gathering of Israel and ask God if he is his chosen prophet. I have done this and have received a witness I can not and will never deny. How are you spending your time sowing seeds, and what are those seeds? Based on several comments on the forum it is crystal clear to me what the motives are for certain individuals. Surely true followers don’t just plant seeds of doubt but also share and teach life changing principles and show charity, humility, meekness, and forgiveness.


Could there be other true followers that were not yet officially members of the church as classified as members of the church of the lamb of god? Are there other faiths in the millennium?

Original_Intent wrote: ↑June 17th, 2018, 10:26 am

Jonesy wrote: ↑June 17th, 2018, 10:03 am Do you only see two churches in the world now? I see many. Where is this church of the Lamb of God? Where are these who are “armed with righteousness and with the power of God in great glory”?

No, it doesn’t seem to fit. Must be speaking of the future. It also means the keys are still with the church—the Lord’s church.

No, He wasn't speaking of some future condition. He is speaking of a universal truth that is true across all time.

Oh, no. These things will surely come to pass. Read the entire chapter.

20 And the angel said unto me: Behold one of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
21 Behold, he shall see and write the remainder of these things; yea, and also many things which have been.
22 And he shall also write concerning the end of the world.

But I can see how a general application can fit.

Right, I was speaking regarding only the "save two churches only" statement.

Original_Intent wrote: ↑June 17th, 2018, 10:41 am Right, I was speaking regarding only the "save two churches only" statement.

Gotcha, so you meant to say this:

“He wasn't [just] speaking of some future condition. He is speaking of a universal truth that is true across all time.”

Edit: Never mind. I get it.

To elaborate, I would say there are different degrees. Just like the many churches there are today could lead you to different kingdoms. But only the LDS church can bring one to the Celestial.

In those days where there will be only two churches, I think that would mean you’re literally either going to be saved or not. Everyone will be convinced of God’s word. The line will be very distinct and no room for middle ground.

That doesn’t make sense, from a universal & objective perspective. At best it is a hypothetical & mythological/theological conclusion. So many other possibilities are more viable & even more reasonable.

Jesef wrote: ↑June 17th, 2018, 11:17 am That doesn’t make sense, from a universal & objective perspective. At best it is a hypothetical & mythological/theological conclusion. So many other possibilities are more viable & even more reasonable.

Are you talking to me? You’re going to have to elaborate a little…

Trying to classify, categorize, or judge where souls are or where their eternal destination or degree of glory will be based on what church they are in. There’s a big ol’ Afterlif, Spirit world, and we know God is actually equitable and fair (perfect character), so it’s impossible for us to forecast, particularly for the 99.999%+ souls who never hear of our version of the Gospel in this life. I hope that helps put my comment in slightly better context.

Jesef wrote: ↑June 17th, 2018, 11:49 am Trying to classify, categorize, or judge where souls are or where their eternal destination or degree of glory will be based on what church they are in. There’s a big ol’ Afterlif, Spirit world, and we know God is actually equitable and fair (perfect character), so it’s impossible for us to forecast, particularly for the 99.999%+ souls who never hear of our version of the Gospel in this life. I hope that helps put my comment in slightly better context.

As of now, I’d say you’re correct. Except that the LDS church is the only one that can bring you to the celestial kingdom. Now, I’m sure there are those who are not members right now. But speaking specifically of churches, the LDS church is the only one that can do that.

As for the prophecy in 1 Nephi 14, I’ll expound a little what I mean. The prophecy goes that there will literally be two churches (named and everything). You will either belong to the church of the devil, or the church of the Lamb of God. Or in other words, “whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church”. There won’t be any atheists or agnostics because they will believe one way or another. You’re against God or you aren’t. Those conditions that are prophesied of are currently nonexistent today. There are many, many churches and you can decide to join one of them or none at all. Well, not in the days to come will it be like that.

These are prophetic conditions that will exist. So, anyone saying that the LDS church is the church of the devil is flat out wrong. They are fighting against the Lord’s church, because those conditions haven’t happened.

I think it’s important to recognize that that is your interpretation & understanding right now but may not be totally TRUE. You’ll find out the complete truth when you die.

Jesef wrote: ↑June 17th, 2018, 12:21 pm I think it’s important to recognize that that is your interpretation & understanding right now but may not be totally TRUE. You’ll find out the complete truth when you die.

Okay, Jesef.

God is so much bigger than the LDS Church and the Restoration as we call it, like bigger than creation BIG! Our understanding is so limited in scope. So we’re pigeon-holing & extrapolating a lot of this stuff. There’s way more to the whole story & Billions of souls.

Jesef wrote: ↑June 17th, 2018, 12:35 pm God is so much bigger than the LDS Church and the Restoration as we call it, like as bigger than creation BIG! Our understanding is so limited in scope. So we’re pigeon-holing & extrapolating a lot of this stuff. There’s way more to the whole story & Billions of souls.

Jesef, if I was there with you right now I would grab your shoulders, look you in the eyes, and tell you IT’S OKAY to believe something with all your heart. That’s how faith works. You have to believe in God’s word. That’s what I’m trying to do in all I’m saying here.

When I believed in the Denver Snuffer movement, I was all in; but God corrected me. God gave us the LDS church in the last days and the keys remain. That is my current understanding.

So, yes, I get it. To be honest, I’m worried that because you have become aware of how vast the works of God are, that you’ve also allowed a lot of doubt and unbelief at the same time. If you have a different understanding or belief, give me that rather than basically saying I should doubt a little more of what God has given me. I will not go outside the scope he gave us. I don’t see anything else available, and it sounds like you don’t either.

Jonesy wrote: ↑June 17th, 2018, 1:07 pm

Jesef wrote: ↑June 17th, 2018, 12:35 pm God is so much bigger than the LDS Church and the Restoration as we call it, like as bigger than creation BIG! Our understanding is so limited in scope. So we’re pigeon-holing & extrapolating a lot of this stuff. There’s way more to the whole story & Billions of souls.

Jesef, if I was there with you right now I would grab your shoulders, look you in the eyes, and tell you IT’S OKAY to believe something with all your heart. That’s how faith works. You have to believe in God’s word. That’s what I’m trying to do in all I’m saying here.

When I believed in the Denver Snuffer movement, I was all in; but God corrected me. God gave us the LDS church in the last days and the keys remain. That is my current understanding.

So, yes, I get it. To be honest, I’m worried that because you have become aware of how vast the works of God are, that you’ve also allowed a lot of doubt and unbelief at the same time. If you have a different understanding or belief, give me that rather than basically saying I should doubt a little more of what God has given me. I will not go outside the scope he gave us. I don’t see anything else available, and it sounds like you don’t either.

I really enjoyed what you wrote here, Jonesy. I think we are sometimes afraid of believing. We have to trust more in the mercy of God and that he will direct our paths. As long as we ask Him to direct us and sanctify our decisions and we are truly trying to be humble, he will correct us if we are wrong and he will do so lovingly and we will grow and have more love and patience with those around us. I still remember an experience I had a few years ago when I had doubts "What if everything I believe is wrong?" I decided it could be and embraced that doubt by acknowledging it and making a conscious decision to believe. It was liberating. Sometimes I have doubts, but when I do, it's not really that I doubt it's that I am enticed by Babylon and consider letting go because I don't have the faith to believe it is all worth it, but I continue to make that decision to believe after prayer and meditation. I was once told by a man of God when I was worrying about whether or not I was being deceived "it hard being perfect isn't it?" I replied "I'm not" and he just smiled. I was angry with his response at the time because it seemed like he hadn't answered my question. It dawned on me a few weeks later what he meant. I was trying so hard to be perfect that I wasn't letting God make me perfect, I was denying His mercy, too afraid to make a mistake, that I wasn't giving myself a chance to learn the bitter from the sweet. Good from the bad, I only wanted to partake of the Good and the sweet. Yet in order to be like God I must partake of both. He (God) is who sanctifies me, not me. Anyways, I believe God can visit who he wants and I believe that we are all (if we desire it) able to see the face of God in this life (literally). While I may have seen Him from a distance in dreams, I have yet to obtain that experience, but I believe it to be possible, because were I to not believe, I would be damned. If I am wrong, then God will tell me one day and I will humbly submit and beg his mercy, to which I have no doubt he will freely give, because I didn't limit my own potential nor others, nor God's.

Keep believing Jonesy. J. Smith Jr. once said “I believe all that God ever revealed, and I never hear of a man being damned for believing too much; but they are damned for unbelief.” So I will continue believing, but try to remain humble so that if my belief is incorrect I will change it. However, I have learned to never limit God in His power. I often thing we place a box around Him and say what he can and can't and will and won't do rather than just letting him be God.

I AM wrote: ↑June 17th, 2018, 9:23 am I choose to live my life by the scriptures and by the Holy Ghost
and by what the spirit teaches and testifies to me of them.
I do not live my life and believe in the "precepts of men"
and in the arm of the flesh.

Be Wary of Man and His Words.
http://www.7witnesses.com/uploads/3/8/9 ... _words.pdf

As members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day saints, we don't live by the 'precepts of men' OR believe in the 'Arm of Flesh' either. We believe in receiving revelation--we receive the gift of the Holy Ghost when we are confirmed. The spirit guides us in our daily lives, if we strive to follow the promptings, revelations and impressions as they come.

We also have a living Prophet (that's a basic tenet of our faith--that we have a living Prophet who heads this church and receives revelations for the whole church) who helps keeps us grounded and holding to the iron rod--his teachings, along with the written scriptures, should keep us from being deceived and ending up wandering in 'strange paths', as unfortunately seems to happen to some people.

So, yea, we don't live our lives following the 'arm of flesh' either.

Jesef wrote: ↑June 17th, 2018, 12:35 pm God is so much bigger than the LDS Church and the Restoration as we call it, like bigger than creation BIG! Our understanding is so limited in scope. So we’re pigeon-holing & extrapolating a lot of this stuff. There’s way more to the whole story & Billions of souls.

I'm certain there is tons more that we will learn when we get to the other side and when our minds are opened to so much more knowledge and understanding, but for now, we have 'sufficient' to return to live with our Heavenly Father. That's the Gospel of Jesus Christ--as embodied within his church, The church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The Atonement is necessary--we must have a Savior--The priesthood is real and represents a real power. The ordinances are vital to salvation--in other words, being able to move forward and continue to grow in knowledge and ability for eternity. So, I can agree with you up to a point. I believe all those Billions of souls will come to this knowledge and those who accept Jesus Christ as their redeemer, will need those ordinances to return to God's presence. I don't think that changes--that's an 'Absolute'.

ten·et
[ˈtenət]
NOUN
a principle or belief, especially one of the main principles of a religion or philosophy.
"the tenets of classical liberalism"
synonyms: principle · belief · doctrine · precept · creed · credo · article of faith · dogma · canon · rule · theory · component of a theory · thesis · conviction · persuasion · idea · view · opinion · [more]

^interesting.

And why is there a "debate" going on over this? Both sides are saying the exact same thing in different ways.

Side 1 (op): Not all who cry unto me "Lord, Lord!" shall enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. (i.e. just because one is baptized by proper priesthood authority does not mean that one is guaranteed to have a mighty change of heart, repent, and come unto Christ).

Side 2: Not all who cry unto me "Lord, Lord!" shall enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. (i.e. just because one has a mighty change of heart, repents, and comes unto Christ does not mean that one is guaranteed to be baptized by proper priesthood authority).

Both are necessary. The Lord expects baptism by proper authority AND a broken heart and a contrite spirit. That's all the OP was really about. Some LDS members will turn around and fight against the cause of Zion because they love the world. Some non-LDS will turn to the Lord and will be brought into the fold as their faith leads them here. There are lots of LDS doing a good job, too, and will be richly blessed for their faith.

I don't see why there are "two sides" to this topic.

Do the math (logic) here:
1) God is Loving, Kind, Good, Benevolent, Merciful, Fair, Equitable, Competent, Intelligent, Patient, etc.., Perfect.
2) Our Heavenly Parents sent Billions of Their spirit children to earth, mortal/physical life to learn & grow.
3) 99.999%+ of them do not possess nor ever will in their entire lifetimes the version of the Gospel with all its requirements that we say is crucial for salvation & exaltation (I.e. eternal success).

Now, remaining consistent with the perfect character of God (Heavenly Parents) - & without getting frustrated - & without being ridiculous - answer me Why?

"... and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God."

A lot of things don’t mean what we thought they meant. D&C 19. We’ve jumped to a lot of premature conclusions (without all the evidence). And prophets’ understandings, revelations, & teachings have been incomplete (at best) - like Alma’s picture of death & spirit world & resurrection. Many others are just flat out wrong. Believing with all your heart doesn’t make it true. That’s still fantasy.