LDS Freedom Forum

SempiternalHarbinger wrote: ↑June 18th, 2018, 10:00 pm

ajax wrote: ↑June 17th, 2018, 9:48 pm I think the two churches thing is becoming more clear as time moves on. It has nothing to do with denominations. One is based on love, mercy, peace and non-compulsion. The other is based on coercion and violence - not just your run of the mill neighborhood thug, but institutionalized coercion and violence, i.e. the State or statism, which has its own symbols and hymns and parties and holidays. Jesus was tempted with the kingdoms of this world, and he rejected them and overcame them with love. I can't love my neighbor while at the same time threatening him with a club to fund my pet projects or visions of society.

Everything is becoming a political question now. Will we reject it fully and completely? Or will we get sucked into the fray and seek institutionalized power to "make things right"?

Two churches
The Kingdom of God vs the Kingdom of the devil
Two masters

The prophet Isaiah tends to agree with you ajax. The line in the sand with Isaiah has nothing to do religious denominations, but rather those who repent and those who do not. The repentant and the unrepentant. Isaiah condemns Israel (who Isaiah Identifies as gods children; Isaiah 1:2) and the shepherds leading his children proceeding the second coming (Woe unto Israel). He also condemns all nations, even mentions leaders by name. It's all one and the same really. Isaiah basically condemns the whole world including Israel. And that is a key to understanding Isaiah, good or bad, we ALL have need of repentance.

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Speaking of Isaiah - continue reading .
Interesting why Isaiah begins his book speaking to us,
Ephraim, or the church today.
Also interesting why the Lord said.
"for great are the words of Isaiah" and
gave us a commandment that we search them diligently.



All would be fine and well in Zion and in the chuch, and with what you're saying if the church wasn't in apostasy.
But members don't know that simply because they don't study the scriptures.

Elder H. Verlan Andersen, who would later serve in the First Quorum of the Seventy, made the following observation:
HISTORY WARNS THAT APOSTASY MUST BE EXPECTED

Religious history testifies that, with the single exception of the inhabitants of the City of Enoch, no people to whom the gospel has been given have remained faithful to their covenants for more than a few generations. Time after time the Lord has established His Church among a group who have lived His commandments for a few years and then fallen away, thus bringing upon themselves His judgments.
This cycle of human folly which so many prophets have noted, has repeated itself with such consistent regularity that any group which finds itself to be the favored recipients of the gospel would do well to assume that their apostasy is certain, and the only question about it is how long it will take.
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All is NOT well in Zion

When are we as members going to wake up and really
SEE THE TRUTH of what our scriptures are saying.

We need to WAKE UP !
Yes - It's time for us to wake up ! WAKE UP !

2 Nephi 1:13
13 O that ye would awake; awake from a deep sleep, yea,
even from the sleep of hell,
and shake off the awful chains by which ye are bound,
which are the chains which bind
the children of men, that they are carried away captive down
to the eternal gulf of misery and woe.

2 Nephi 28:21,24,25
21 And others will he pacify,
and lull them away into carnal security,
that they will say: All is well in Zion;
yea, Zion prospereth, all is well—
and thus the devil cheateth their souls,
and leadeth them away carefully down to hell.
24 Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!
25 Wo be unto him that crieth: All is well!

We are stiil under condemnation

WHEN we members stop thinking we are so good and ALWAYS in the right
and can do no wrong, and start heeding the warnings that are in Isaiah and
the Book of Mormon for us, maybe than, and ONLY then
will the Lord lift the condemnation that we have been under for so many years
and come to the truth and be saved from the tribulations
that are coming upon us.
D&C 84:
57 And they shall remain under this condemnation
until they repent and remember the new covenant,
even the Book of Mormon and the former
commandments which I have given them,
not only to say, but to do according to
that which I have written—

"Condemnation Upon the LDS People Has Never Been Lifted"

"In the year 1832, just two years after the time when the LDS Church was established, a scourge and condemnation
was placed upon the current LDS people for their disobedience to the Lord.
This curse and pending judgement has never been lifted:"
Where much is given - much is required.
Even our great prophet Ezra T. Benson
has said that we were under condemnation
for treating the Book of Mormon lightly.
“If the early Saints were rebuked for treating
the Book of Mormon lightly, are we under any less
condemnation if we do the same?”
(in Conference Report, Oct. 1986, 4;
or Ensign, Nov. 1986, 4–5).

D&C 84:
54 And your minds in times past have been darkened
because of unbelief, and because you have treated
lightly the things you have received—

55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the
whole church under condemnation.

56 And this condemnation resteth upon
the children of Zion, even all.

57 And they shall remain under this condemnation
until they repent and remember the new covenant,
even the Book of Mormon and the former
commandments which I have given them,
not only to say, but to do according to
that which I have written—

Behold, I say unto you, were it not for the transgressions of my
people, speaking concerning the church and not individuals, they
might have been redeemed even now. But behold, they have not
learned to be obedient to the things which I required at their hands,
but are full of all manner of evil, and do not impart of their
substance, as becometh saints, to the poor and afflicted among them.
(D&C 105:2-3.)

Doctrine and Covenants
Section 101:
6 Behold, I say unto you, there were jarrings,
and contentions, and envyings, and strifes,
and lustful and covetous desires among them;
therefore by these things they polluted their inheritances.
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quote from someone

"The LDS people have a tendency, when reading the BOM, to look at those things spoken of regarding the “Gentiles” in two ways.
One is that all of those things that are of a flattering nature are attributable to the LDS people and that those things which are of a negative nature and perceived as a call to repentance are meant for those other people who are the evil “Gentiles”. This to me is disingenuous."

"so long as we think of ourselves as the 'good guys'
in whatever scriptural scenario we a studying, for example,
we will learn very little from the scriptures."

Isaiah 29:9,10 13,14
9 Stay yourselves, and wonder; cry ye out, and cry: they are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink.

10 For the Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.

13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

WHY DID THE LORD HIMSELF SAY

"for great are the words of Isaiah" and
gave us a commandment that we search them diligently.
Because they are speaking about us -
the (Gentiles - especially the church today)

3 Nephi 23:1- 4
1 "And now, behold, I say unto you,
that ye ought to search these things.
Yea, a commandment I give unto
you that ye search these things diligently;
for great are the words of Isaiah."

2 "For surely he spake as touching all things
concerning my people which are of the house of Israel;
therefore it must needs be that he must speak
also to the Gentiles."
( Gentiles are us, members, and all of us here today in the U.S. )

3 "And all things that he spake (have been and shall be),
even according to the words which he spake."

4 "Therefore give heed to my words;
write the things which I have told you;
and according to the time and the will
of the Father they shall go forth unto the Gentiles."

3 Nephi 20:11
11 "Ye remember that I spake unto you,
and said that when the words of Isaiah
should be fulfilled—behold they are written,
ye have them before you, therefore search them-"
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Isaiah has now been unsealed and brought
to light by the Lord for our understanding in these last days.

Isaiah 44:7
7 "Who predicts what happens as do I, and is the equal of me in
appointing a people from of old as types, foretelling things to come?

Isaiah uses what are called types from the past
to show the future.
What has happened before, will happen again.

ALL THE PROPHECIES OF ISAIAH PERTAIN TO US TODAY
All prophecies in Isaiah are prophecies of the last days.

Referring to our church and the sad condition we are in,
Isaiah begins his book speaking to us,
Ephraim, or the church today.

Isaiah 1:2-5
Description of modern Ephraim
(addressing our church he calls Israel)

2 Hear, O heavens! Give heed, O earth!
Jehovah has spoken:I have reared sons,
brought them up,but they have revolted against me.
3 The ox knows its owner,the donkey its master’s stall,
but Israel does not know;my people are insensible.
4 Alas, a nation astray,a people weighed down by sin,
the offspring of wrongdoers,perverse children:
they have forsaken Jehovah,they have spurned
the Holy One of Israel,they have lapsed into APOSTASY.
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Isaiah 24:4,5
4 The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth and fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish.

5 "The earth lies polluted under its inhabitants:
they have transgressed the laws,
changed the ordinances, set at nought the ancient covenant."

explanation:
"Causing these curses is the wickedness of Jehovah’s people, who have altered his “ordinances” or “ritual” and perverted his “laws” or “doctrine” , thereby violating Jehovah’s covenant and rendering it void. Jehovah’s servant, who personifies Jehovah’s covenant (Isaiah 42:6; 49:8), they likewise set at nought (Isaiah 49:7; 50:5-11; 52:14)."

Apostle Joseph Fielding Smith declared that;
“It is the L. D. Saints who have transgressed the laws, change the ordinance, broke the everlasting covenant.”
Joseph Fielding Smith (Deseret News, Church Section, Oct. 17, 1936)
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"Land of the shadow of death" is the U.S.
after the invasion by the beast.

9:2 The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light:
they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death,
upon them hath the light shined.
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Did you realize that in the 29th chapter of Isaiah he describes the coming forth
of the original plates of the Book of Mormon and the attitude
of the people against it.

taken from: LDS Seminary Student Study Guide

"Isaiah 29 is one place in the Bible where the Book of Mormon is referred to, even though it is not mentioned by name.
As you read this chapter, look for prophecies of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon and the impact this book will have on the world."

Now if the 29th Chapter of Isaiah refers to our people and nation,
then it is very feasible that the 28th chapter may also refer to us.
If you want a big wake up call please read it !
If you study this 28th chapter of Isaiah
it will reveal that every word applies to our church in these days
and to no other people.
Isaiah cites that this people would be given "precept upon precept;
precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little and there a little."
These identical words, were used by the Prophet Joseph Smith among his closing instructions
to the latter day saints, warning us to go forward not backward. D.C.128:21-22 ; 2Nephi 28:30

Isaiah 28:13 "But the word of the Lord was unto them
precept upon precept, precept upon precept;
line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little;
that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken,
and snared, and taken."

We are still satisfied with the ABC portions of the gospel.
We will not accept the meat portions of the gospel.

Isaiah 28:
9 Whom shall he give instruction?
Whom shall he enlighten with revelation?
Weanlings weaned from milk,those just taken from the breast?
10 For it is but line upon line, line upon line,precept upon precept,
precept upon precept;a trifle here, a trifle there.

The Drunkards of Ephraim
Isaiah28:1 "Woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of Ephraim, whose glorious beauty is a fading flower, which are on the head of the fat valleys of them that are overcome with wine!"

Salt Lake City is a "fat valley" if I've ever seen one.
It is very sobering to wake up and find the sad condition we are in.
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Latter-day Saint Apostasy
THE APOSTASY CYCLE

If you’ve ever served as a full-time missionary for the Church, you might remember teaching your investigators about “ the pattern of apostasy and restoration.” According to the Church’s “ Guide to Missionary Service,” this concept should normally be taught during an investigator’s very first lesson.

To briefly summarize, investigators are informed that every occurrence of widespread apostasy throughout history is eventually followed by a restoration; and since God never changes, we can know with certainty that He will never deviate from that pattern. In other words, a restoration will always follow an apostasy since God will “ never cease His labors to redeem His posterity.”

Have we failed to realize the full implications of what we’re teaching here? If this “pattern of apostasy and restoration” has consistently repeated itself throughout history, then wouldn’t it be more accurate to call it a “cycle” rather than a “pattern”? If “apostasy and restoration” is indeed a cycle, then not only are we justified in declaring that a restoration will always follow apostasy, but we may also rightly acknowledge the opposite order of events : apostasy apparently always follows a restoration. Think about that for a moment. If we’re justified in believing one portion of this concept, simply because it’s supported by the historical record, then why not the other portion, which is equally supported?

Elder H. Verlan Andersen, who would later serve in the First Quorum of the Seventy, made the following observation:

“No people to whom the gospel has been given have remained faithful to their covenants for more than a few generations. Time after time the Lord has established His Church among a group who have lived His commandments for a few years and then fallen away, thus bringing upon themselves His judgments. This cycle of human folly, which so many prophets have noted, has repeated itself with such consistent regularity, that any group which finds itself to be the favored recipients of the gospel would do well to assume that their own apostasy is certain, and the only question about it is how long it will take. . . . The fact that the Lord has found it necessary to restore His gospel so many times is in itself evidence of the regularity with which apostasy has occurred, because the only thing which will cause the destruction of His Church is the wickedness of its members.


To their credit, the missionaries do acknowledge that in every “dispensation, people eventually used their agency to choose to reject the gospel and then fell into apostasy.”

However, notwithstanding this admission, very few members of the Church seem capable of comprehending the legitimate application of this principle to the present dispensation. “To fail to consider the possibility that the members of the Church are again ‘falling away’ would be to ignore one of the most thoroughly documented lessons of history,” said Elder Andersen.

ORIGINAL Publication & PDF

Also read The Time and Season of The Gentiles

HISTORY WARNS THAT APOSTASY MUST BE EXPECTED

Religious history testifies that, with the single exception of the inhabitants of the City of Enoch, no people to whom the gospel has been given have remained faithful to their covenants for more than a few generations. Time after time the Lord has established His Church among a group who have lived His commandments for a few years and then fallen away, thus bringing upon themselves His judgments. This cycle of human folly which so many prophets have noted, has repeated itself with such consistent regularity that any group which finds itself to be the favored recipients of the gospel would do well to assume that their apostasy is certain, and the only question about it is how long it will take.

Christ, who as the Governor of this world and has the painful duty of punishing transgression, has spoken of the infidelity of the House of Israel and the frequency with which it has rejected Him. Just before He made His appearance to those righteous Nephites and Lamanites who survived the terrible disaster inflicted upon them, He uttered these words of anguish:

O ye people of these great cities which have fallen, who are descendants of Jacob, yea, who are of the house of Israel, how oft have I gathered you as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and have nourished you.

And again, how oft would I have gathered you as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, yea, O ye people of the house of Israel, who have fallen;.. . how oft would I have gathered you as a hen gathereth her chickens, and ye would not. (3 Nephi 10:4–5)

To the Jews, the Lord has said:

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! (Matt. 23:37)

The fact that the Lord has found it necessary to restore His gospel so many times is in itself evidence of the regularity with which apostasy has occurred because the only thing which will cause the destruction of His Church is the wickedness of its members. As the angel told Alma who had been trying to destroy the Lord’s work among the Nephites:

Alma, arise and stand forth, for why persecutest thou the church of God? For the Lord hath said: This is my church, and I will establish it; and nothing shall overthrow it, save it is the transgression of my people. (Mosiah 27:13)

The prophet, Mormon, whose labors as a historian gave him an opportunity to observe the frequency of the righteousness-wickedness-punishment cycle, spoke of it as though it were a law of life which operates as a certain consequence of universal human weakness. His analysis of apostasy and its causes should interest us deeply:

And thus we can behold how false, and also the unsteadiness of the hearts of the children of men; yea, we can see that the Lord in his great infinite goodness doth bless and prosper those who put their trust in him.

O how foolish, and how vain, and how evil, and devilish, and how quick to do iniquity, and how slow to do good, are the children of men. (Hela. 12:1-4)

ARE THE CONDITIONS WHICH ORDINARILY ACCOMPANY APOSTASY PRESENT TODAY?

Do the words of Mormon quoted above have application today? If “ease” and “exceedingly great prosperity” are certain to cause people to “forget the Lord their God,” then the Church is in deep trouble because seldom, if ever, has any group been as prosperous as it is today. Its beginnings were humble enough. Starting in 1830 with an initial membership of six, the Church was persecuted, its property destroyed and confiscated, its leaders slain, and the people finally driven into a forbidding wilderness before they could find a measure of peace. But all that has now changed. After 140 years of growth, membership numbers in the millions, persecution has largely vanished, and instead of ostracism, members are, for the most part, accepted and respected.

These conditions in prior dispensations have been sure signs of weakened faith. To fail to consider the possibility that the members of the Church are again “falling away” would be to ignore one of the most thoroughly documented lessons of history. Especially is this true in light of the fact that the cultural, political, and educational life of Church members has become so deeply and thoroughly involved with that of non-members that they are being overwhelmingly influenced by the “ways of the world.” Through newspapers and magazines, motion pictures and television, schools and lecture halls, and a thoroughly integrated economic system, Church members come into close and continuous contact with those not of their faith.

Some may assume that a “Gentile apostasy” in these latter days cannot occur because Christ’s Church is here to stay this time. They may assume that widespread departure from gospel principles by Church members is contrary to prophecy. While the scriptures do assure us that the Church will continue to exist and be divinely led by prophets of the Lord right up until his Second Coming, they do not state that all, or even a majority of its members will follow those prophets. On the contrary, they foretell extensive, and in some cases, almost total defection from true principles. For example in Chapter 2 herein, we noted the Lord’s prophecy that only one half of that small group he calls “virgins” will avoid being deceived and destroyed. Let us consider other scriptures which discuss this problem.

PROPHECIES REGARDING APOSTASY IN THESE LATTER DAYS

The Book of Mormon contains many predictions of a falling away among the “Gentiles” in the latter days. While the non-Jewish, non-Lamanite members of Christ’s Church may not call themselves Gentiles, the Book of Mormon prophets did. This is clearly shown by the title page of the Nephite scripture which states in the following passage that this book will come forth “by way of the Gentile:”

Wherefore, it is an abridgement of the record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites—Written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel; and also to Jew and Gentile…to come forth in due time by way of the Gentile—… (See also D&C 20:9)

Christ also used the name “Gentile” to identify those through whom the gospel would go to the Lamanites. (3 Nephi 21:2–4)
If Church members from Gentile nations will bear in mind that the term “Gentile” when used in the Book of Mormon includes them, the prophecies therein will have much greater meaning and be more disturbing.

Some of the predictions clearly refer to members of Christ’s Church. Consider, for example, the following statement which is found among Nephi’s comments regarding latter-day conditions:

They wear stiff necks and high heads; yea, and because of pride, and wickedness, and abominations, and whoredoms, they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men. (2 Nephi 28:14)

Even one who considers himself a “humble follower of Christ” is here warned that he will err “in many instances” because he is “taught by the precepts of men.”

Moroni was similarly explicit in predicting false teachings among the Saints. Reflect upon the unmistakable implications of this point-blank indictment of members of the “holy church of God:”

O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? (Mormon 8:38)

Since there is only one “holy church of God” on earth, and since it is being polluted, the blame therefore appears to rest upon teachers and hypocrites within that church. Christ levelled His own charge that iniquity would prevail among Gentile members of His Church in the last days in these words:

At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel… and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations… (3 Nephi 16:10)

That He was referring to members of His Church in this passage is evident not only from the fact that He states that the Gentiles will sin against His gospel, but also in discussing the possibility of their failing to repent, He refers to them as the “Salt of the earth:”

But if they will not turn unto me, and hearken unto my voice, I will suffer them, yea, I will suffer my people, O house of Israel, that they shall go through among them, and shall tread them down, and they shall be as salt that hath lost its savor, which is thenceforth good for nothing but to be cast out, and to be trodden underfoot of my people, O house of Israel. (3 Nephi 16:15)

When Christ uses the term “the salt of the earth”, He means His covenant people, as the following passage explains:

When men are called unto mine everlasting gospel, and covenant with an everlasting covenant, they are accounted as the salt of the earth and the savor of men;

They are called to be the savor of men; therefore, if that salt of the earth lose its savor, behold, it is thenceforth good for nothing only to be cast out and trodden under the feet of men. (D&C 101:39–40)

There are two other instances of record wherein the Lord told the Nephites that unless the Gentiles repented, they would be trodden down and torn in pieces. (3 Nephi 20:16, 21:12-14) Mormon, who had witnessed the Lamanites exterminate his own people, used almost the same words as did Christ in the quotations referred to above, in predicting the destruction of the unrepentant Gentiles by a remnant of the house of Jacob:

And then, O ye Gentiles, how can ye stand before the power of God, except ye shall repent and turn from your evil ways?

Therefore, repent ye, and humble yourselves before him lest he shall come out in justice against you—lest a remnant of the seed of Jacob shall go forth among you as a lion, and tear you in pieces, and there is none to deliver. (Mormon 5:22, 24)

Then we have the following words of Moroni which state that the Gentiles would become so wicked that unless they repented they would be destroyed:

And this cometh unto you, O ye Gentiles, that ye may know the decrees of God—that ye may repent, and not continue in your iniquities until the fulness come, that ye may not bring down the fulness of the wrath of God upon you as the inhabitants of the land have hitherto done. (Ether 2:11)

It should be emphasized that the above quoted statements are not merely warnings against iniquity but they are prophecies also.
In the clearest of language, they predict that the Gentiles will become so wicked that unless repentance occurs we will be destroyed. Or, as the last scripture quoted states it, our iniquities will become so great that if we “continue” in them, we will be swept off as were our predecessors.

That such a destruction will occur, and that it will consume everyone who fails to repent is indicated in the following words of Nephi:

And now behold, my beloved brethren, I would speak unto you; for I, Nephi, would not suffer that ye should suppose that ye are more righteous than the Gentiles shall be. For behold, except ye shall keep the commandments of God ye shall all likewise perish; and because of the words which have been spoken ye need not suppose that the Gentiles are utterly destroyed. For behold, I say unto you that as many of the Gentiles as will repent are the covenant people of the Lord… (2 Nephi 30:1–2)

So sweeping had been Nephi’s description of Gentile wickedness and destruction that in the above passage, he considered it necessary to warn his readers against assuming that the “Gentiles are utterly destroyed.” As many as will turn from their wicked ways may be spared and numbered with the remnant.

THE FAILURE OF PEOPLE TO RECOGNIZE THE SIGNS OF APOSTASY

In the great majority of cases where apostasy has occurred, it appears that the people became wicked while believing themselves righteous.
This happened time and again to the Children of Israel and the Nephites, and was plainly evident in the case of the Jews at the time of Christ.
There are recorded exceptions to this rule. For example, when the Nephites apostatized immediately prior to Christ’s visit, we are told:

Now they did not sin ignorantly, for they knew the will of God concerning them, for it had been taught unto them; therefore they did wilfully rebel against God. (3 Nephi 6:18)

But the typical situation is described thus by Mormon as he commented on the frequency and rapidity with which a people who have been blessed forsake the Lord:

they do harden their hearts, and do forget the Lord their God, and do trample under their feet the Holy One—yea, and this because of their ease, and their exceedingly great prosperity. (Hela 12:2)

Prophecies regarding the Gentile apostasy of the latter days indicate that it will be the typical one wherein Church members will be led away by false beliefs into evil practices. Nephi had much to say regarding the event. Among other things he predicted that:

1. “Because of pride, and because of false teachers, and false doctrine, their churches have become corrupted..” (2 Nephi 28:12)

2. “the humble followers of Christ” will err in many instances because they are taught by the precepts of men. (2 Nephi 28:14)

3. Some will be lulled away “into carnal security, that they will say: All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth, all is well—and thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell.” (2 Nephi 28:2 1)

4. Others will be deceived into believing that there is no devil and no hell. (2 Nephi 28:22)

5. There will be many who will say:…

Eat, drink and be merry; nevertheless, fear God—he will just in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God. Yea, and there shall be many which shall teach after this manner, false and vain and foolish doctrines… (2 Nephi 28:8–9)

the BIGGEST problem with the church and members today is
they place more importance on the leaders of the church and what they say;
(their favorite saying is "follow the prophet",) instead of on Christ, and
THE WORD OF GOD, and what the scriptures say.
The scriptures tell a whole different story - believe me.

A well known LDS writer once wrote a
foreword in a book and said -
"This book might well be entitled
"What you always wanted to know about the Gospel
but were too lazy to find out."
"All answers are in the scriptures, but Latter-day Saints
do not read the scriptures."
Hugh Nibley

Finrock wrote: ↑June 19th, 2018, 1:52 pm

Jonesy wrote: ↑June 17th, 2018, 8:49 pm

Jesef wrote: ↑June 17th, 2018, 8:32 pm You're frustrated by uncertainty? Better check yourself. This is the human condition. Pretending to know isn't really knowledge. You've been wrong - fundamentally - before, and you will be again. You could be right now. Humility is a bummer, huh?

What I'm "on about" is use your head, think, reason! So I'll repeat this, since no one really answered:

Do the math (logic) here:
1) God is Loving, Kind, Good, Benevolent, Merciful, Fair, Equitable, Competent, Intelligent, Patient, etc.., Perfect.
2) Our Heavenly Parents sent Billions of Their spirit children to earth, mortal/physical life to learn & grow.
3) 99.999%+ of them do not possess nor ever will in their entire lifetimes the version of the Gospel with all its requirements that we say is crucial for salvation & exaltation (I.e. eternal success).

Now, remaining consistent with the perfect character of God (Heavenly Parents) - & without getting frustrated - & without being ridiculous - answer me Why?

Perhaps frustrated that that’s all you’re really saying; that there’s so much uncertainty.

Or just cut to the chase and give us the answer. I don’t think my thoughts are coming across to you. I think AI2.0 already gave a good answer of things we know, anyways.

viewtopic.php?p=862310#p862323

Are you offering an alternative? If not, then why sow seeds of “uncertainty”?

That isn't all he offered was a statement that there is much uncertainty. He provided an argument and postulated a question for you. Why don't you attempt to answer it with sincerity and real intent?

He is saying that just because you act like you know or just because you think you know, with all your heart, it doesn't mean that you actually know or that what you think you know is true. There is in fact an inconsistency that exist in your currently postulated belief system. In other words, what you've stated as your belief, has holes in it and it doesn't fit the evidence. Yo, yo, yo, check it!

https://www.lds.org/media-library/video ... h?lang=eng

-Finrock

I think it’s more that I can’t seem to get my point across. I’ll try to explain.

Jesef’s fundamental position (correct me if I’m wrong) is based on uncertainty, as he’s stated. I’ve already acknowledged there is uncertainty.

My position is based on faith. For one to obtain faith, one *must* believe on the word of God. With faith, there is always uncertainty until you gain more assurance and your faith is made perfect. That is, your faith produces a perfect knowledge. All Jesef is doing is basically telling me to not believe so much without giving any kind of alternative or rebuttal to my position. So, I’m going to keep on believing what I believe until I gain a better understanding or receive a greater assurance of what I should believe.

So, no. I’m not really interested in his position, or where it’s leading to, or his question. God gave us the restoration, scripture, and a church that still retains keys. If he, or anyone finds a better alternative, go for it. But I know everything we have been given can lead one to live with God. Pretty dangerous to find another way in or preach any other gospel.

TrueIntent wrote: ↑June 18th, 2018, 9:18 pm I want to add, for those who dont know what crisping pins are....they were pins worn in the hair. Did you also know that these pins, were typically made out of gold, and in pagan/cultic worship customs, the woman would leave these pins at altars of their fertility Gods. It was an offering for good fortune in the event of a birth, or during or after........More symbols of idol worship in Isaiah......it says the daughters of Zion are wearing crisping pins. Basically, they have ornamented their outer instead of the inner...and they did this because they worship false Gods.....Gods who won't deliver them sons. They were barren women who couldn't produce children (women with reproach).....but in that day, zion will become beautiful.....and 7 women will take hold of one man (and I'm not talking about polygamy), and they will eat their own bread (manna from heaven) and wear their own apparel (put on the garment) if only they can be called by HIS name....the name of Christ.

And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.

New understanding added to Isaiah......its all about these barren women, like sarah, Leah, etc....that conceive. Woman of the priesthood who bear HIS name.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

. "lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations,"

Isaiah 4:4 2 Nephi 14:4 "When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning. "
Isaiah 52:2 "Shake thyself from the dust; arise, sit down, O Jerusalem: loose thyself from the bands of thy neck, O captive daughter of Zion."

Finrock wrote: ↑June 19th, 2018, 1:52 pm

Jonesy wrote: ↑June 17th, 2018, 8:49 pm

Jesef wrote: ↑June 17th, 2018, 8:32 pm You're frustrated by uncertainty? Better check yourself. This is the human condition. Pretending to know isn't really knowledge. You've been wrong - fundamentally - before, and you will be again. You could be right now. Humility is a bummer, huh?

What I'm "on about" is use your head, think, reason! So I'll repeat this, since no one really answered:

Do the math (logic) here:
1) God is Loving, Kind, Good, Benevolent, Merciful, Fair, Equitable, Competent, Intelligent, Patient, etc.., Perfect.
2) Our Heavenly Parents sent Billions of Their spirit children to earth, mortal/physical life to learn & grow.
3) 99.999%+ of them do not possess nor ever will in their entire lifetimes the version of the Gospel with all its requirements that we say is crucial for salvation & exaltation (I.e. eternal success).

Now, remaining consistent with the perfect character of God (Heavenly Parents) - & without getting frustrated - & without being ridiculous - answer me Why?

Perhaps frustrated that that’s all you’re really saying; that there’s so much uncertainty.

Or just cut to the chase and give us the answer. I don’t think my thoughts are coming across to you. I think AI2.0 already gave a good answer of things we know, anyways.

viewtopic.php?p=862310#p862323

Are you offering an alternative? If not, then why sow seeds of “uncertainty”?

That isn't all he offered was a statement that there is much uncertainty. He provided an argument and postulated a question for you. Why don't you attempt to answer it with sincerity and real intent?

He is saying that just because you act like you know or just because you think you know, with all your heart, it doesn't mean that you actually know or that what you think you know is true. There is in fact an inconsistency that exist in your currently postulated belief system. In other words, what you've stated as your belief, has holes in it and it doesn't fit the evidence. Yo, yo, yo, check it!

https://www.lds.org/media-library/video ... h?lang=eng

-Finrock

----------------

“People say they love truth, but in reality they want to believe that which they love is true.” –Robert J. Ringer

Thanks for giving everyone a fair shake, Fin - I really appreciate that about you.

Jonesy, if all you're getting out my comments is that I'm emphasizing uncertainty - well, that says more about how you're reading me than what I've written. Paradigms are Powerful things - the lens of interpretation - filled with confirmation bias = seeing or only accepting what we want, what reinforces our deeply held core beliefs or belief system.

My first point is actually a point of faith, faith in the correct character and attributes of God:
1) God is Loving, Kind, Good, Benevolent, Merciful, Fair, Equitable, Competent, Intelligent, Patient, etc.., Perfect.

If the Creator/God is not Benevolent, well, then we're probably better off not existing because things are going to become painful, probably even horrifying. I actually think this is the kind of Being most people, including Latter-Day Saints, believe in - a Being who is intolerant of imperfection, mistakes, and will exact vengeance and eternal suffering for such. It's very Greco-Roman and even Catholic/Protestant really. These are the fear-peddlers. You better watch out, beware, if you don't believe and do such & such just right, you'll be damned forever (& possibly suffer painfully forever too). This is horrible. I'll admit, some scriptures paint this kind of picture but I believe this is where some prophets' cultures got the better of them. I don't believe we hold the same view of God today as the Israelites did of their tribal God, who authorized them to wipe out other tribes and their babies. Do you think God, the real/true God/Creator of All, actually did that, or do you think that was their interpretation & misrepresentation of Him? I believe the latter. In other words, not all scriptures are true in the universal/objective/eternal sense - they may have been accurately reported from a certain frame of reference - but they were wrong. If you think about what you really believe God to be today, I think you might agree They are not that vengeful, tribe-favoring Old Testament version.

My second point is a fact, but is still based on the point of faith in the first one:
2) Our Heavenly Parents sent Billions of Their spirit children to earth, mortal/physical life to learn & grow.

It is a fact, we know, that there are billions of people on earth - if you/we believe they are all souls, beloved spirit sons & daughters of the same Creator/God - that is a point of faith we share. I accept this as a fact, even though I can't prove it. It is faith. I have some personal evidence for my belief but it's not physical proof. I believe it is as sure a spiritual knowledge as can be had though.

My third point is also a fact, and it's probably the most disrupting, because I don't think any Latter-Day Saint has a problem with 1) or 2):
3) 99.999%+ of them do not possess nor ever will in their entire lifetimes the version of the Gospel with all its requirements that we say is crucial for salvation & exaltation (I.e. eternal success).

This is where you might get your underwear in a bundle. But it is observably true. So I'll phrase the question a little differently: Why would loving, fair, perfect, equitable, benevolent/good Eternal Parents send almost all of their spirit children to earth without the critical success system (that's our belief system's claim, our understanding & interpretation of scripture, right?) available to them? The answer is obvious. Do the math. Tell me what you think the answer is. Anyone is welcome to answer it. I have what I think is the correct answer that fits the evidence and does not violate the perfect character of God. I could be wrong but it feels right. I'll share mine soon.

I shared mine, whether people can live in love, non-compulsion and peace vs coercion and violence, no? This doesn't require any "specialized" knowledge.

I like it, Ajax. My attempt at answering it is very similar. But I'll keep everyone in suspense, hopefully just to inspire more participation. Ha, ha.

Whew, I least I'm on the right track. I can't wait until the whole truth is revealed.

Jesef wrote: ↑June 19th, 2018, 3:58 pm Thanks for giving everyone a fair shake, Fin - I really appreciate that about you.

Jonesy, if all you're getting out my comments is that I'm emphasizing uncertainty - well, that says more about how you're reading me than what I've written. Paradigms are Powerful things - the lens of interpretation - filled with confirmation bias = seeing or only accepting what we want, what reinforces our deeply held core beliefs or belief system.

My first point is actually a point of faith, faith in the correct character and attributes of God:
1) God is Loving, Kind, Good, Benevolent, Merciful, Fair, Equitable, Competent, Intelligent, Patient, etc.., Perfect.

If the Creator/God is not Benevolent, well, then we're probably better off not existing because things are going to become painful, probably even horrifying. I actually think this is the kind of Being most people, including Latter-Day Saints, believe in - a Being who is intolerant of imperfection, mistakes, and will exact vengeance and eternal suffering for such. It's very Greco-Roman and even Catholic/Protestant really. These are the fear-peddlers. You better watch out, beware, if you don't believe and do such & such just right, you'll be damned forever (& possibly suffer painfully forever too). This is horrible. I'll admit, some scriptures paint this kind of picture but I believe this is where some prophets' cultures got the better of them. I don't believe we hold the same view of God today as the Israelites did of their tribal God, who authorized them to wipe out other tribes and their babies. Do you think God, the real/true God/Creator of All, actually did that, or do you think that was their interpretation & misrepresentation of Him? I believe the latter. In other words, not all scriptures are true in the universal/objective/eternal sense - they may have been accurately reported from a certain frame of reference - but they were wrong. If you think about what you really believe God to be today, I think you might agree They are not that vengeful, tribe-favoring Old Testament version.

My second point is a fact, but is still based on the point of faith in the first one:
2) Our Heavenly Parents sent Billions of Their spirit children to earth, mortal/physical life to learn & grow.

It is a fact, we know, that there are billions of people on earth - if you/we believe they are all souls, beloved spirit sons & daughters of the same Creator/God - that is a point of faith we share. I accept this as a fact, even though I can't prove it. It is faith. I have some personal evidence for my belief but it's not physical proof. I believe it is as sure a spiritual knowledge as can be had though.

My third point is also a fact, and it's probably the most disrupting, because I don't think any Latter-Day Saint has a problem with 1) or 2):
3) 99.999%+ of them do not possess nor ever will in their entire lifetimes the version of the Gospel with all its requirements that we say is crucial for salvation & exaltation (I.e. eternal success).

This is where you might get your underwear in a bundle. But it is observably true. So I'll phrase the question a little differently: Why would loving, fair, perfect, equitable, benevolent/good Eternal Parents send almost all of their spirit children to earth without the critical success system (that's our belief system's claim, our understanding & interpretation of scripture, right?) available to them? The answer is obvious. Do the math. Tell me what you think the answer is. Anyone is welcome to answer it. I have what I think is the correct answer that fits the evidence and does not violate the perfect character of God. I could be wrong but it feels right. I'll share mine soon.

Okay, now we’re getting somewhere. Don’t really care for your roundabout way, but whatever.

I imagine it’s to allow everyone the greatest salvation that they are capable.

I’m interested in how this applies to my answer I gave previously.

AI2.0 wrote: ↑June 19th, 2018, 9:08 am True Intent and I AM.

I do not agree with the belief that the LDS church is corrupt, headed for apostasy or in apostasy. I do not believe that God is taking out of the LDS church the 'elect' or a remnant and with those he will continue his work. This is an attitude some on the forum espouse and a driving force behind many of the self proclaimed 'prophets' that constantly spring up.

I do not believe that having a prophet at the head of the church means the rest of the members are not ableto/or should not receive revelation, though this is a common allegation made against devout members. I believe in stewardship, that we all should and many do receive revelation on a daily basis, but I don't believe that I should listen to or heed the counsel of someone who claims they are receiving revelation for me when they hold no stewardship over me. I reject them and their claims.

I believe that the church organization was set up to have a living prophet as President to receive revelation for the church as a whole and that he is the only one authorized to do so.

That is the way this has been done since the days of Joseph Smith jr. and it continues today with Pres. Nelson.

This forum seems to attract many people who don't agree with me on these points, but I'm confident that the majority of the members of the LDS church believe as I do, because this is a basic doctrine in our faith.

We’re not that far off in what we believe. I also believe the brethren are doing exactly what they are supposed to. I don’t want to be a prophet or lead the church, I’ve got enough on my plate, but based on personal revelation I received I’m no longer “comfortable” with certain teachings, and I have every right to present what I feel without fear of being called an apostate. Apostasy is stepping out of the teachings of Christ. We should be able to correct one another without fear of someone using authority to punish them. (See Galatians chapter 2) Zion is a Society where no man instructs another. We are equals heart and mind.

I don’t believe the church gets to “control” who receives revelation or how much revelation individuals receive. This becomes a problem with administration for the church if they can’t agree or are lagging amongst the 12. an example of this would probably blacks and the priesthood...no doubt people knew skin color had nothing to do with priesthood, and that color was a symbolic interpretation, and yet the church was not ready to administer to the body. Can you imagine knowing the truth, and yet maybe having a black best friend, you receive their endowments while they wait outside. It make you feel uncomfortable amongst the body. Even though you are not out of the way. Typically you’re the one persecuted until they come to an undstanding (pattern in scripture).

No wonder so many people cried when the ban was lifted. It’s because people knew for a while. So here’s the deAl, there is this passage of scripture where Paul basically publically slams a Jewish high priest and calls him a “white washed wall”. This was an insult. Paul says it because they want to punish him “outside of the law”.....this is hypocrisy. Then they slam paul and say, respect your elders.....Paul says, the law states I should respect my elders, and so had I know he was a high priest, I would not have insulted him. But I had no idea he was a high priest.

Paul Before the Sanhedrin
1And Paul, earnestly beholding the council, said, Men [and] brethren, I have lived in all good conscience before God until this day. 2And the high priest Ananias commanded them that stood by him to smite him on the mouth. 3Then said Paul unto him, God shall smite thee, [thou] whited wall: for sittest thou to judge me after the law, and commandest me to be smitten contrary to the law? 4And they that stood by said, Revilest thou God's high priest? 5Then said Paul, I wist not, brethren, that he was the high priest: for it is written, Thou shalt not speak evil of the ruler of thy people.

Paul is basically insulting him again. Basically Paul is saying do your job...administer the law without hypocrisy. And if you had, I wouldn’t be here correcting you. He My point is, we should be admistering correct teachings where “they err.” And they shouldn’t punish people for trying to do so, or use the rules against them in hypocrisy. Don’t cast a stone where you also have sinned. It’s not Paul’s fault he insulted a high priest, Paul couldn’t “tell” he was a High priest (meaning he didn’t act like one). High priests aren’t supposed to be hypocrites.



Paul wasn’t trying to take over the Church, and he wasn’t an apostate.

The issue isn’t “apostates.” It’s false teachings. We all are in a continual state of apostasy anytime we are out of line with Christ’s teachings. All of us. I get so sick of people pulling an authority card....you can quote a general authority all day long and it doesn’t matter if they aren’t inline with scripture. They become hypocrites for punishing those who correct them——they stand at the pulpit and correct us...you see what I’m saying. Read that passage on Paul.

Side note, why does Elijah come? The whole quote to Moroni. Elijah comes before the great and dreadful day of the lord. You know Elijah was part of a remnant. 7000 were spared.

Listen, I don’t know what happens to the church. I don’t understand that part of “scripture yet”. But what I do know is that a remnant come forth in the passages of Isaiah found in the Book of Mormon. And the ELECT are those who are. Zion type body. They are the “called out” ones. When I go to church on Sunday, I can not imagine that all those wonderful people are not part of the elect. On occasion though, I hear teachings on doctrine from the top leaders that is revealing, and sometimes from some members but most people I meet are good.

Like that recent mitt Romney video someone posted about interpreting scipture/handbook like a lawyer....and some leaders justifying abortion...anyway. The debate is not abortion. It’s the idea that we administer the handbook to people one way, and then privately interpret it amongst the elders (that’s hypocrisy) and it starts showing up in interpretations over the pulpit of scripture because they “think” that way. That’s the issue. That’s not the first time I’ve heard that. There are levels of understanding but that teaching is why we recently had sex scandals with priesthood holders. Truth is truth period.

This is why the essays were an issue for me. Because I got to see how the church administers “information”. I saw the church of the p.r. It wasn’t about truth or error. It was about appearing how they needed to appear to save face. PROBLEM. The brethren are supposed to administer “the way” as instructed in scripture. The way is truth and the way someone communicates truth matters. If they are the bearers of truth, why are people writing books revealing more than they let on. They are the ones with access to all the records. So administer it. I was a happy follow the crowd personality until I read an essay.

As for Zion, No man teaches another. So, can we establish Zion where a president Nelson is just another face in the crowd? Where people wouldn’t be butt kissing all day to sit next to him at the lunch table?!?? So how do we make the mental leap? No man instructs another. Not even me? Can we walk in a room with a general authority and act normal?

So TrueIntent, do you think Denver Snuffer is leading this "remnant" you are talking about? Or do you think it looks something like what he is doing, i.e. a "true prophet" from outside the ranks/hierarchy comes along, empowered by heaven, and calls out the faithful from among the main body? It sounds like you either believe him or something coming that looks like him...

Jonesy, what do you mean by "allow everyone the greatest salvation that they are capable" exactly? That sounds like you believe souls are of different grades or quality or potential, a caste system if you will - some are higher quality, Celestial, some are medium grade, Terrestrial, and some are lower class, Telestial, some are worthless, Perdition. Is that what you believe? If so, why?

If you believe all souls have the same innate divine potential (do you?), and you also believe in one mortal life/probation (do you believe in only one?), then why do you think souls wouldn't just wait a few more thousand years or eons to prepare in the "premortal" realm before coming down here to take the test - why not wait until you know you're going to get an "A+"?

Jesef wrote: ↑June 19th, 2018, 6:32 pm Jonesy, what do you mean by "allow everyone the greatest salvation that they are capable" exactly? That sounds like you believe souls are of different grades or quality or potential, a caste system if you will - some are higher quality, Celestial, some are medium grade, Terrestrial, and some are lower class, Telestial, some are worthless, Perdition. Is that what you believe? If so, why?

If you believe all souls have the same innate divine potential (do you?), and you also believe in one mortal life/probation (do you believe in only one?), then why do you think souls wouldn't just wait a few more thousand years or eons to prepare in the "premortal" realm before coming down here to take the test - why not wait until you know you're going to get an "A+"?

Other than the resurrection, do you believe the atonement loses it's effectiveness at death? Or do you believe people can still learn, change and improve themselves after death? It seems you believe the end of the test bell rings at death and agency ceases to exist. The church teaches death isn't the end and that people can still come unto Christ and be perfected in him after death. So your presumption that people (spirits) aught to have waited until they knew they were going to get an "A+" doesn't really make sense.

Jesef wrote: ↑June 19th, 2018, 6:32 pm Jonesy, what do you mean by "allow everyone the greatest salvation that they are capable" exactly? That sounds like you believe souls are of different grades or quality or potential, a caste system if you will - some are higher quality, Celestial, some are medium grade, Terrestrial, and some are lower class, Telestial, some are worthless, Perdition. Is that what you believe? If so, why?

If you believe all souls have the same innate divine potential (do you?), and you also believe in one mortal life/probation (do you believe in only one?), then why do you think souls wouldn't just wait a few more thousand years or eons to prepare in the "premortal" realm before coming down here to take the test - why not wait until you know you're going to get an "A+"?

Speaking of people wasting their time, I think you’re wasting your time if you think the answer is multiple mortal probations. True or not, doesn’t really matter. Even Snuffer realized that.

Anyways, this is starting to turn into a game that I’m not really interested in. You said you’d give your answer soon. I’m out.

Wasting time? Yeah, probably. You could be a little nicer. All the subtle digs. Is that how you like to be treated? Not sure why you get so frustrated.

My simplified answer goes something like this, and it's really just a series of possibilities that seem to fit or explain a lot of observable (spiritual) data: what we're born with, conscience or the Divine Light or Light of Christ (part of our eternal spirit/nature/existence) - whatever you want to call it - it's innate to our souls - we bring it with us, through the veils, when we incarnate. That would be the only criteria that would be universal, every soul is born with it (some level of knowledge of good & evil). Also, if eternal progression/ascension is the real game of eternity, and mortality (& opposition) is the learning/proving/school ground, then we probably don't play just one time. Which means souls are different ages/stages of maturity (good & evil actually are relative to soul age, just like different curricula are relative to different grades in school). This would explain why some souls seem to incarnate so "unprepared" or immaturely and yet here they are, for all to see, screwing up left and right, harming others, learning (slowly, but surely) the hard way. It also explains why Latter-Day Saints do not have a corner on the market of superior/Godlike/Christlike character, i.e. you can find many spiritual giants in other faiths/belief-systems whose character & attributes are clearly superior to many born-in-the-covenant LDS people. So innate light, soul ages, many, many rounds of learning & progression. Something like that. And I think Snuffer is wrong about that too. Anyway, this could be one of the "mysteries" (at least to LDS). Buddha taught it pretty clearly & openly. Joseph maybe didn't live long enough to teach it openly. Brigham & Woodruff & others hinted at it in the form of their second anointing blessings which referred to future lifetimes in which they would be Saviors, etc. "This life" doesn't mean only life. Practice makes perfect. I could go on. But apparently I'm just wasting your time, because you have it all figured out, eh? Just sharing ideas. Dangerous ideas that could imperil your salvation (ha, ha - that's a joke!).

Another way of looking at it is you can retake "the test" until you get the grade you want. Just like that story from recent General Conference. Why would God be less wise & merciful than a BYU professor?

Yeah, I thought it was going there...

There appears to be subtle digs on your side, too. I think I was just picking up on those. In any case, I do get frustrated. I like it when people are more to the point. I mean, you could have just mentioned MMP a long time ago. Not sure why you didn’t.

No harm intended, Jesef. I guess it’s just not for me. I don’t see much value in it for discussion. I mean, it could be true. But what is important to me are the things that are more plainly taught in the scriptures. That is what will help others come unto Christ. It seems like I’m going back to the basics and fundamentals. That’s where my interest is these days.

No worries, and I can understand that.

To me, they’re just ideas or theories. Some make a lot of sense and could explain a lot. I’ve experienced some interesting things that seem to fortify some of it.

I think many Latter-Day Saints might be mature souls since we are so focused on marriage & family relationships, what we would call “Celestial” (Christlike) relationships, relationships built on harmlessness, love, kindness, compassion, etc. I also think it’s possible that we’re not as advanced or superior as we think we are. For example, the really Pharisaical Mormons could be just like ancient Israel, young souls who are basically in elementary school or junior high and need a lot of structure and rules, etc.

I mean no offense - I’m sarcastic sometimes - but I just like to think & challenge people to think. I’ve learned a lot, I feel, by not being to rigid about certain things. There’s always more to learn, higher/truer things.

ajax wrote: ↑June 17th, 2018, 9:48 pm I think the two churches thing is becoming more clear as time moves on. It has nothing to do with denominations. One is based on love, mercy, peace and non-compulsion. The other is based on coercion and violence - not just your run of the mill neighborhood thug, but institutionalized coercion and violence, i.e. the State or statism, which has its own symbols and hymns and parties and holidays. Jesus was tempted with the kingdoms of this world, and he rejected them and overcame them with love. I can't love my neighbor while at the same time threatening him with a club to fund my pet projects or visions of society.

Everything is becoming a political question now. Will we reject it fully and completely? Or will we get sucked into the fray and seek institutionalized power to "make things right"?

Two churches
The Kingdom of God vs the Kingdom of the devil
Two masters

I believe precisely this. There are save two churches because there are save two plans; Christ's and Lucifer's. The Gospel of Jesus Christ and every single ideology or religion that strays from it. The truth of all things and everything that is in some way not true.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints shows us how to be a part of the Church of the Lamb; it is His Church, but just as there are good, righteous people not (yet) in that Church now, there are certainly some within that church who fight against it. Some do it unknowingly-not seeking to be rebellious, yet sitting in complacency and singing that "all is well in Zion". Some may be worn down from the world, and rather than enduring to the end, they seek means to justify accepting some of the world in their lives be it through socialism, the social fads of the day, or whatever else.

2 Nephi 10
16 Wherefore, he that fighteth against Zion, both Jew and Gentile, both bond and free, both male and female, shall perish; for they are they who are the whore of all the earth; for they who are not for me are against me, saith our God

1 Ne. 13:5
5 And the angel said unto me: Behold the formation of a church which is most abominable above all other churches, which slayeth the saints of God, yea, and tortureth them and bindeth them down, and yoketh them with a yoke of iron, and bringeth them down into captivity.

1 Ne. 13:4 (4–6)
4 And it came to pass that I saw among the nations of the Gentiles the formation of a great church.
5 And the angel said unto me: Behold the formation of a church which is most abominable above all other churches, which slayeth the saints of God, yea, and tortureth them and bindeth them down, and yoketh them with a yoke of iron, and bringeth them down into captivity.
6 And it came to pass that I beheld this great and abominable church; and I saw the devil that he was the founder of it.

1 Nephi 13:26 (26, 34)
26 And after they go forth by the hand of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews unto the Gentiles, thou seest the formation of that great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away.
34 And it came to pass that the angel of the Lord spake unto me, saying: Behold, saith the Lamb of God, after I have visited the remnant of the house of Israel—and this remnant of whom I speak is the seed of thy father—wherefore, after I have visited them in judgment, and smitten them by the hand of the Gentiles, and after the Gentiles do stumble exceedingly, because of the most plain and precious parts of the gospel of the Lamb which have been kept back by that abominable church, which is the mother of harlots, saith the Lamb—I will be merciful unto the Gentiles in that day, insomuch that I will bring forth unto them, in mine own power, much of my gospel, which shall be plain and precious, saith the Lamb.

Jesef wrote: ↑June 19th, 2018, 6:24 pm So TrueIntent, do you think Denver Snuffer is leading this "remnant" you are talking about? Or do you think it looks something like what he is doing, i.e. a "true prophet" from outside the ranks/hierarchy comes along, empowered by heaven, and calls out the faithful from among the main body? It sounds like you either believe him or something coming that looks like him...

I don't follow denver snuffer...i have no idea what he is teaching ( i did read a book he wrote a couple years ago about Joseph not practicing polygamy, and I wasn't impressed..it didn't tell me anything I already hadn't read)...Honestly I had a spiritual witness that had to do with Elijah, and so I study him a lot, and i just recently realized what the remnant thing is pointing to (part of it came from my study of Elijah because I had a witness of something)...I couldn't comprehend it in scripture until recently. (now application to the LDS church....it would really make me sad if a remnant was being pulled and because that means a whole bunch of people aren't ready for it...and I love people at church, but at the same time, I'm wondering if what I understand is because that is supposed to happen,.....personally, nobody in own my family understands half of what I believe (kind of like on the forum, hoeverwever)...I tend to write better and explain myself better when I am asked specific questions on the forum...and if you talk to me in person, people nod their head, and start talking about something else...they can't comprehend what I say...but only people on the forum tend to care enough to debate these topics...my family gets bored, as do friends listening to me, so I don't talk to them about it....the forum is my only outlet where people occasionally interact with me....thats why I like it so much....I get to chat about a passion.

Like I can't imagine God would pull, say for example myself out as a remnant, and then my family who doesn't even understand me....destory them (a lot of them don't get me)....see God knows how much I care about my family....so there is some disconnect about the "remnant" and their roles and obviously Elijah was part of a remnant...I don't KNOW what my witnesses mean, God lets me interpret them and repeat it back through the veil (like the temple)...I dont ever get a yes, I just get understanding, unfolding of scripture, symbols...its complicated, I can honestly I am still walking in faith on this whole issue...I would really like him to say "words" to me so that he can confirm

........I Know the Remnant is Gods' CHOSEN, and they are pulled out for apostasy out of the previous body (or at least this is what I understand), but I don't believe for one second that Gods leaving my family in the Dust. Not for one second...cuz everything I believe is because I love my family, and God loves me, and he shows me he loves me by helping with my family (like answering all my prayers when I worry about them...).....I don't want to believe in a God that would just wipe out a bunch of people I love....even if they don't give a flip about "the plan" even though they go to church on sunday, most people could care less outside of their daily routine. Honestly, I have told multiple people that I understand the temple ceremony....they think i am an idiot. Not kidding....if someone had said this to me five years ago, I would have been all over them with questions, but every body is like....oh thats nice dear, how are your kids.

I do understand ( at this point in scripture study) that prophets are pulled out...but like I said in some other points, literally or symbolically or both, I don't know beforehand how this works..when I "preach" ha ha, on the forum, its a good idea to take "concepts, ideas, and Patterns" from me, but let God be the one who fulfills it however he chooses. Like for example, I realized God has been talking to me my whole life...whole life....but I just assumed it was a whole lot of coincidences because I believed this teaching..."they apostles are special witnesses, and so they are the ones who interact with jesus christ directly in the salt lake temple".......for me, this teaching meant, that I would have to become an apostle or my husband would, so that I could chat with jesus. I believed this until about 3 years ago....when I dropped that teaching, and followed the spirit and began to recognize how God spoke to me...he "spoke" to me more often or at least i was recognizing it more often. Like, i don't mean words, I don't hear or see things. Like I was praying for help, and he sent me the "tree of life" so many times in a short period I knew someone from heaven was shaking me.....I had like three people at church come up to me randomly and say, he you should study the tree of life....and then the lesson on sunday was on the tree of life, and then FHE the next day at a friends house was on the tree of life, and then I emailed a guy (on the forum who I didn't even know)...and his favorite symbol was the tree of life, and then I open my scriptures, and the passage I am reading on is the Tree of life. Thats one of the ways he talks to me. So I like that quote, about a coincidence is God being anonymous thing....but now I caught Him red handed...I see him in action more.

Im not involved with any group. Im rogue.

TrueIntent wrote: ↑June 20th, 2018, 9:57 am

Jesef wrote: ↑June 19th, 2018, 6:24 pm So TrueIntent, do you think Denver Snuffer is leading this "remnant" you are talking about? Or do you think it looks something like what he is doing, i.e. a "true prophet" from outside the ranks/hierarchy comes along, empowered by heaven, and calls out the faithful from among the main body? It sounds like you either believe him or something coming that looks like him...

I don't follow denver snuffer...i have no idea what he is teaching ( i did read a book he wrote a couple years ago about Joseph not practicing polygamy, and I wasn't impressed..it didn't tell me anything I already hadn't read)...Honestly I had a spiritual witness that had to do with Elijah, and so I study him a lot, and i just recently realized what the remnant thing is pointing to (part of it came from my study of Elijah because I had a witness of something)...I couldn't comprehend it in scripture until recently. (now application to the LDS church....it would really make me sad if a remnant was being pulled and because that means a whole bunch of people aren't ready for it...and I love people at church, but at the same time, I'm wondering if what I understand is because that is supposed to happen,.....personally, nobody in own my family understands half of what I believe (kind of like on the forum, hoeverwever)...I tend to write better and explain myself better when I am asked specific questions on the forum...and if you talk to me in person, people nod their head, and start talking about something else...they can't comprehend what I say...but only people on the forum tend to care enough to debate these topics...my family gets bored, as do friends listening to me, so I don't talk to them about it....the forum is my only outlet where people occasionally interact with me....thats why I like it so much....I get to chat about a passion.

Like I can't imagine God would pull, say for example myself out as a remnant, and then my family who doesn't even understand me....destory them (a lot of them don't get me)....see God knows how much I care about my family....so there is some disconnect about the "remnant" and their roles and obviously Elijah was part of a remnant...I don't KNOW what my witnesses mean, God lets me interpret them and repeat it back through the veil (like the temple)...I dont ever get a yes, I just get understanding, unfolding of scripture, symbols...its complicated, I can honestly I am still walking in faith on this whole issue...I would really like him to say "words" to me so that he can confirm

........I Know the Remnant is Gods' CHOSEN, and they are pulled out for apostasy out of the previous body (or at least this is what I understand), but I don't believe for one second that Gods leaving my family in the Dust. Not for one second...cuz everything I believe is because I love my family, and God loves me, and he shows me he loves me by helping with my family (like answering all my prayers when I worry about them...).....I don't want to believe in a God that would just wipe out a bunch of people I love....even if they don't give a flip about "the plan" even though they go to church on sunday, most people could care less outside of their daily routine. Honestly, I have told multiple people that I understand the temple ceremony....they think i am an idiot. Not kidding....if someone had said this to me five years ago, I would have been all over them with questions, but every body is like....oh thats nice dear, how are your kids.

I do understand ( at this point in scripture study) that prophets are pulled out...but like I said in some other points, literally or symbolically or both, I don't know beforehand how this works..when I "preach" ha ha, on the forum, its a good idea to take "concepts, ideas, and Patterns" from me, but let God be the one who fulfills it however he chooses. Like for example, I realized God has been talking to me my whole life...whole life....but I just assumed it was a whole lot of coincidences because I believed this teaching..."they apostles are special witnesses, and so they are the ones who interact with jesus christ directly in the salt lake temple".......for me, this teaching meant, that I would have to become an apostle or my husband would, so that I could chat with jesus. I believed this until about 3 years ago....when I dropped that teaching, and followed the spirit and began to recognize how God spoke to me...he "spoke" to me more often or at least i was recognizing it more often. Like, i don't mean words, I don't hear or see things. Like I was praying for help, and he sent me the "tree of life" so many times in a short period I knew someone from heaven was shaking me.....I had like three people at church come up to me randomly and say, he you should study the tree of life....and then the lesson on sunday was on the tree of life, and then FHE the next day at a friends house was on the tree of life, and then I emailed a guy (on the forum who I didn't even know)...and his favorite symbol was the tree of life, and then I open my scriptures, and the passage I am reading on is the Tree of life. Thats one of the ways he talks to me. So I like that quote, about a coincidence is God being anonymous thing....but now I caught Him red handed...I see him in action more.

Im not involved with any group. Im rogue.

So btw...I almost bought his "second comforter book" I found it online, but that was at the time in my life where I was scared of anyone who was excommunicated. So I would only talk to LDS people who still believed, but would acknowledge hypocrisy or issues with church history. Thats why the forum was great. I identify with those who will acknowledge bull, admit when they are wrong.....experimental on their understanding, because thats where I am....once you get to a place where you are not sure who you can trust (as far as their spiritual knowledge goes) you become like me...and you will only pray directly to God and use your scriptures to help you decode what he "says" to you.

No joke, I belive in the temple ceremony. And when people (i.e. my stake president tried to correct my understanding of my own revelation) I "tried" my messenger. I asked what witnesses had he received (i.e. tokens and signs).....and he told me. He had received witnesses of what HE believed, but nothing further (which it what he was counseling me on...further witnesses) ( I said thank you for your advice and counsel,but then I knew to not follow it...he wasn't malicious, he just had a disconnect on understanding, like I do about the remnant thing,) Im sure god will explain it in scripture to me at some point when I need to know it). The temple ceremony is legit. And God is teaching me that "title" in the church, thus far anyway, is not a reflection of authority (power or knowledge of God). Im a woman....isn't it ironic, and so much of How God teaches is meant to be that way. Maybe he will eventually teach me that authority and title in the church like Prophet Seer and Revelator, matches up with understanding as the "most spiritually knowledgeable person of God"....so far that is not the case....but God likes to confound people, so I will stay open minded. I mean, doesn't Christ have to reign at some point

sorry i keep adding thoughts, but....the church also believes this teaching, that title SHOULD reflect authority, otherwise, why would they have come into my home to correct my own understanding of my own witnesses. It wasn't just me that was taught it culturally....they proved they taught it by coming in my home to "correct" my understanding of what my own witnesses mean. They believed they had greater knowledge to do so......I haven't shared this on the forum, but they were sent into my home by an area 70, to "correct" my understanding and find out what I believe....after my bishop and stake president spoke with me, THEY cleared me. I think this is the "last days" reason for the temple ceremony. we will need it to progress. You won't know who you can believe or who you can't. But its also a way to elevate each other spiritually, we can clear out false teachings by sharing what we receive from heaven....joseph smith taught that one bit of revelation from Heaven is worth more than all secretariat notions (or something like that).