LDS Freedom Forum

Jesef wrote: ↑June 17th, 2018, 7:38 pm A lot of things don’t mean what we thought they meant. D&C 19. We’ve jumped to a lot of premature conclusions (without all the evidence). And prophets’ understandings, revelations, & teachings have been incomplete (at best) - like Alma’s picture of death & spirit world & resurrection. Many others are just flat out wrong. Believing with all your heart doesn’t make it true. That’s still fantasy.

What are you on about? Can you get to the point of what you’re trying to say? All I’m getting from you, and all you are really highlighting, is that there is a whole lot that we don’t know and understand. Okay, agreed.

Yeah, believing with all your heart doesn’t make it true. But that’s something I can give to God; a believing heart. If I’m wrong, then I believe God will correct me as He has before. Especially in things pertaining to my salvation. It’s here a little, there a little. Sometimes a lot. How does it work for you?

I think what people get frustrated about is we see so many posts about all these possibilities, but never come to any solution nor give any other alternatives. I can only say what I do know and what I have been given. I’ve shown that I am capable from learning from my own life lessons and mistakes, and we’re all still learning. But why do you keep asking questions that you don’t even know the answers to? So much doubt and little substance.

You're frustrated by uncertainty? Better check yourself. This is the human condition. Pretending to know isn't really knowledge. You've been wrong - fundamentally - before, and you will be again. You could be right now. Humility is a bummer, huh?

What I'm "on about" is use your head, think, reason! So I'll repeat this, since no one really answered:

Do the math (logic) here:
1) God is Loving, Kind, Good, Benevolent, Merciful, Fair, Equitable, Competent, Intelligent, Patient, etc.., Perfect.
2) Our Heavenly Parents sent Billions of Their spirit children to earth, mortal/physical life to learn & grow.
3) 99.999%+ of them do not possess nor ever will in their entire lifetimes the version of the Gospel with all its requirements that we say is crucial for salvation & exaltation (I.e. eternal success).

Now, remaining consistent with the perfect character of God (Heavenly Parents) - & without getting frustrated - & without being ridiculous - answer me Why?

Jesef wrote: ↑June 17th, 2018, 8:32 pm You're frustrated by uncertainty? Better check yourself. This is the human condition. Pretending to know isn't really knowledge. You've been wrong - fundamentally - before, and you will be again. You could be right now. Humility is a bummer, huh?

What I'm "on about" is use your head, think, reason! So I'll repeat this, since no one really answered:

Do the math (logic) here:
1) God is Loving, Kind, Good, Benevolent, Merciful, Fair, Equitable, Competent, Intelligent, Patient, etc.., Perfect.
2) Our Heavenly Parents sent Billions of Their spirit children to earth, mortal/physical life to learn & grow.
3) 99.999%+ of them do not possess nor ever will in their entire lifetimes the version of the Gospel with all its requirements that we say is crucial for salvation & exaltation (I.e. eternal success).

Now, remaining consistent with the perfect character of God (Heavenly Parents) - & without getting frustrated - & without being ridiculous - answer me Why?

Perhaps frustrated that that’s all you’re really saying; that there’s so much uncertainty.

Or just cut to the chase and give us the answer. I don’t think my thoughts are coming across to you. I think AI2.0 already gave a good answer of things we know, anyways.

viewtopic.php?p=862310#p862323

Are you offering an alternative? If not, then why sow seeds of “uncertainty”?

Jesef wrote: ↑June 17th, 2018, 7:38 pm A lot of things don’t mean what we thought they meant. D&C 19. We’ve jumped to a lot of premature conclusions (without all the evidence). And prophets’ understandings, revelations, & teachings have been incomplete (at best) - like Alma’s picture of death & spirit world & resurrection. Many others are just flat out wrong. Believing with all your heart doesn’t make it true. That’s still fantasy.

On the flip side, not believing doesn't make them untrue.

Charity... " ...Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in truth; Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things... charity never faileth:...whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away....For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known...." It seems to me that we can know- face to face eventually, as we develop charity.

"The first and fundamental principle of our holy religion is, that we believe that we have a right to embrace all, and every item of truth, without limitation or without being circumscribed or prohibited by the creeds or superstitious notions of men, or by the dominations of one another, when that truth is clearly demonstrated to our minds, and we have the highest degree of evidence of the same.” - Joseph Smith and might I add "logic" which is in itself a self-righteous belief system in that it believes it can prove all truth (though it can, at the same time, be helpful)

I think the two churches thing is becoming more clear as time moves on. It has nothing to do with denominations. One is based on love, mercy, peace and non-compulsion. The other is based on coercion and violence - not just your run of the mill neighborhood thug, but institutionalized coercion and violence, i.e. the State or statism, which has its own symbols and hymns and parties and holidays. Jesus was tempted with the kingdoms of this world, and he rejected them and overcame them with love. I can't love my neighbor while at the same time threatening him with a club to fund my pet projects or visions of society.

Everything is becoming a political question now. Will we reject it fully and completely? Or will we get sucked into the fray and seek institutionalized power to "make things right"?

Two churches
The Kingdom of God vs the Kingdom of the devil
Two masters

And I think this partiality answers Jesef's question. Almost everybody living has to in some way deal with questions of love and non-compulsion and coercion and the levers of power, whether or not they hear the LDS version of the gospel. People will put their faith in one or the other.

Now this is not to say that this is the only ingredient, but I think it's the first one that at least gets a persons foot in the door.

ajax wrote: ↑June 17th, 2018, 9:48 pm I think the two churches thing is becoming more clear as time moves on. It has nothing to do with denominations. One is based on love, mercy, peace and non-compulsion. The other is based on coercion and violence - not just your run of the mill neighborhood thug, but institutionalized coercion and violence, i.e. the State or statism, which has its own symbols and hymns and parties and holidays. Jesus was tempted with the kingdoms of this world, and he rejected them and overcame them with love. I can't love my neighbor while at the same time threatening him with a club to fund my pet projects or visions of society.

Everything is becoming a political question now. Will we reject it fully and completely? Or will we get sucked into the fray and seek institutionalized power to "make things right"?

Two churches
The Kingdom of God vs the Kingdom of the devil
Two masters

I can't agree that 'it has nothing to do with denominations'; denominations or churches do have something to do with it, but it's not as cut and dried as to think this is only about denominations.
We are told there are 'two churches' only, yet, fact wise, we know there are many churches and as we read Nephi's instruction on this, it's clear he's not just talking about man made organizations we call 'churches'.

I believe he clarifies--those who fight against Zion are in the 'church' of the Devil, but to fight against Zion, a person doesn't have to be affiliated with a church. As well, simply because a person claims membership in the LDS church, doesn't mean they are working to build Zion--but may be actively fighting against it, in their own way.

So, yes, this isn't about 'churches' as we know them.

Sometimes people use this to condemn 'institutions', such as churches like the LDS church, but Jesus did not reject institutions--he organized a church when he called his 12 apostles and taught them doctrines, then charged them to go out and preach to the world, baptizing etc to bring members into his church. And he didn't do it just once, he did it again when he visited the Nephites and then again when he appeared to Joseph Smith jr. in this last dispensation.

An 'institution', such as a church or an 'institution' such as the family, is not bad per se, but they have pitfalls, just like anything else in this world--instead of love and support, because they involve fallible humans, they can have their problems. We were warned that even priesthood--a wonderful blessing given to us, can be used as a force for evil--coercion, when it is exercised improperly. See D&C 121. That is a clear warning to us that we must be vigilant.

Just like we don't throw out the priesthood, we also shouldn't throw out the institution of a church simply because they both have the potential to be used to coerce others.

So, whatever we are doing, we can ask ourselves--'Am I serving the Devil or Jesus Christ when I do this, think this or act in this way?'

In 1843 the High Council was quite concerned about the teachings of a certain Elder named Pelatiah Brown even though Joseph Smith called him “one of the wisest old heads we have among us.” He was called up for trial for teaching mysteries not yet revealed. Of this Joseph Smith said, “I did not like the old man being called up for erring in doctrine. It looks too much like the Methodists, and not like the Latter-Day Saints. Methodists have creeds which a man must believe or be asked out of their church. I want the liberty of thinking and believing as I please. It feels so good not to be trammeled. It does not prove that a man is not a good man because he errs in doctrine.” (DHC 5:340)

This quote is key....what was going on in the "school of the prophets" in Doctrine and Covenants in our own church history. They were contending with one another on doctrine. This quote shows that a man, in the very church Joseph Smith revealed through revelations, was condemned for his thinking, not acting...but words, the very words that Joseph Smith called wise.

In the book of mormon...it says, there is no law against a mans belief. Why then, were the high council of Joseph's day, condemning a man for his belief?

it was for The same reason the prophet stephen was stoned....it says stephen, in the new testament, was stoned for his WORDS....WORDS ONLY......why is there this pattern in scripture of stoning people for their words, when there is no law against a mans belief? Can't we all just have a conversation about scripture without a stoning occurring? What couldn't (the pharisees and scribes who stoned him) they accept?

AI2.0 wrote: ↑June 17th, 2018, 9:01 am Joseph Smith jr. restored a church which hold Priesthood keys and priesthood authority, along with ONE PROPHET who heads the church and receives revelation for the whole church.

We may not have what Joseph defined a 'creed' to be, but Joseph certainly established doctrine and expected that it defined our beliefs--an example are the Articles of Faith. Also, our belief in living prophets, priesthood authority, baptism by immersion, to name some. If a person started teaching things that were not part of the doctrine, Joseph Smith jr. had no problem cutting them off, or excommunicating them.

We do the same thing today. If someone is going around teaching doctrines (an example is someone who continues to advocate for the present day practice of polygamy) which are not taught by our living Prophet, then that person is in danger of being excommunicated--the same as in Joseph's day.

We are expected to strive for revelation, but the revelation we receive and accept needs to be in harmony with the doctrines and teachings of the church as taught by our living prophets.

Every member needs to be aware that Satan can deceive them and if they don't recognize this, and stubbornly refuse to be corrected by their leaders (who hold stewardship over them) when they are called in because they've been preaching/living false doctrines, then they run the risk of being cut off from the body of the Saints--but that is their choice.

Peter held the keys in the new testament.....we find in our temple ceremony....Peter kneels at the alter, and the patrons, in a circle, kneel around him exchanging tokens and signs, praying for the "sick and the afflicted" in the TRUE ORDER......Then those same patrons walk to the veil, and exchange their understanding of the tokens and signs they have received with GOD.....God says that is correct (or not correct depending on who you are and what you believe your tokens and signs mean)......Why on earth are we receiving and endowment????? only apostles are given an endowment i.e. endowed with power. I don't understand why you believe that only "one Prophet" speaks for you, and yet you are receiving and ordinance for an "endowment. you contradict yourself.

A prophet, like moses, could communicate with God through the veil. We are supposed to be communicating with God through the veil to understanding last day prophecy, and fulfill it. Why are we, as members of the LDS church, communicating through the veil if a "ONE PROPHET" is supposed to do all the talking for us? Maybe because some stuff in Revelation and Isaiah still needs to be fulfilled, and a bunch of last days servants are supposed to do it....and maybe joseph smith taught this.

Maybe, What I AM is teaching, is in harmony with the doctrines and teachings of the church. Remember, the book of mormon, and every pattern in scriptures teaches that a "remnant comes forth".......did you know that "elect" in the greek translation means "remnant, called out, chosen"........did you know that the pattern in scripture is that this remnant comes "out of" the body, it's never the entire "body" of the church. It's a remant. This is why Paul says, not all who are Israel are Israel.....well not all who claim to be mormons are mormons, and not all who claim to be follows of christ are actually followers of Christ.

Did you know, that Paul claimed right before the apostasy of the early christian church, and "elect" body was being gathered "out of them..." They were called a remnant. Why is Revelations and Isaiah (the passages found in the BOM" teaching? Why did joseph smith take time to careful add notes to Revelation 17 (i think thats the chapter)...


Why does no one ask these questions?

Questions of the day? Who was “endued” with power on high? How was one “endued” with power on high? And why do Mormons receive and ordinance to be endued (endowed) ????

Teach me from scripture.

In chapter 14, verse 10, [1 Ne. 14:10] however, Nephi describes the archetypical categories: “There are save two churches only”—the church of the Lamb of God, or Zion; and the church of the devil, or Babylon. “Whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.”

Apocalyptic literature is dualistic. Since it deals with types, everything boils down to opposing principles: love and hate, good and evil, light and dark. There are no gray areas in apocalyptic writing. In this sense, there are only two categories in the realm of religion: religion that will save and religion that won’t. The former is the church of the Lamb, and the latter, no matter how well intentioned, is a counterfeit.

In the historical sense, though, only one entity can be the great and abominable church. Well-intentioned churches would thus not qualify as the mother of abominations described in 1 Nephi 13. They do not slay the saints of God nor seek to control civil governments nor pursue wealth, luxury, and sexual immorality.

In either the apocalyptic sense or the historical sense, individual orientation to the Church of the Lamb or to the great and abominable church is not by membership but by loyalty. Just as there are Latter-day Saints who belong to the great and abominable church because of their loyalty to Satan and his life-style, so there are members of other churches who belong to the Lamb because of their loyalty to him and his life-style. Membership is based more on who has your heart than on who has your records.

Some Latter-day Saints have erred in believing that some specific denomination, to the exclusion of all others, has since the beginning of time been the great and abominable church. This is dangerous, for many will then want to know which it is, and an antagonistic relationship with that denomination will inevitably follow.

Warring Against The Saints Of God
Stephen E. Robinson

TrueIntent wrote: ↑June 18th, 2018, 2:44 pm

AI2.0 wrote: ↑June 17th, 2018, 9:01 am Joseph Smith jr. restored a church which hold Priesthood keys and priesthood authority, along with ONE PROPHET who heads the church and receives revelation for the whole church.

We may not have what Joseph defined a 'creed' to be, but Joseph certainly established doctrine and expected that it defined our beliefs--an example are the Articles of Faith. Also, our belief in living prophets, priesthood authority, baptism by immersion, to name some. If a person started teaching things that were not part of the doctrine, Joseph Smith jr. had no problem cutting them off, or excommunicating them.

We do the same thing today. If someone is going around teaching doctrines (an example is someone who continues to advocate for the present day practice of polygamy) which are not taught by our living Prophet, then that person is in danger of being excommunicated--the same as in Joseph's day.

We are expected to strive for revelation, but the revelation we receive and accept needs to be in harmony with the doctrines and teachings of the church as taught by our living prophets.

Every member needs to be aware that Satan can deceive them and if they don't recognize this, and stubbornly refuse to be corrected by their leaders (who hold stewardship over them) when they are called in because they've been preaching/living false doctrines, then they run the risk of being cut off from the body of the Saints--but that is their choice.

Peter held the keys in the new testament.....we find in our temple ceremony....Peter kneels at the alter, and the patrons, in a circle, kneel around him exchanging tokens and signs, praying for the "sick and the afflicted" in the TRUE ORDER......Then those same patrons walk to the veil, and exchange their understanding of the tokens and signs they have received with GOD.....God says that is correct (or not correct depending on who you are and what you believe your tokens and signs mean)......Why on earth are we receiving and endowment????? only apostles are given an endowment i.e. endowed with power. I don't understand why you believe that only "one Prophet" speaks for you, and yet you are receiving and ordinance for an "endowment. you contradict yourself.

A prophet, like moses, could communicate with God through the veil. We are supposed to be communicating with God through the veil to understanding last day prophecy, and fulfill it. Why are we, as members of the LDS church, communicating through the veil if a "ONE PROPHET" is supposed to do all the talking for us? Maybe because some stuff in Revelation and Isaiah still needs to be fulfilled, and a bunch of last days servants are supposed to do it....and maybe joseph smith taught this.

Maybe, What I AM is teaching, is in harmony with the doctrines and teachings of the church. Remember, the book of mormon, and every pattern in scriptures teaches that a "remnant comes forth".......did you know that "elect" in the greek translation means "remnant, called out, chosen"........did you know that the pattern in scripture is that this remnant comes "out of" the body, it's never the entire "body" of the church. It's a remant. This is why Paul says, not all who are Israel are Israel.....well not all who claim to be mormons are mormons, and not all who claim to be follows of christ are actually followers of Christ.

Did you know, that Paul claimed right before the apostasy of the early christian church, and "elect" body was being gathered "out of them..." They were called a remnant. Why is Revelations and Isaiah (the passages found in the BOM" teaching? Why did joseph smith take time to careful add notes to Revelation 17 (i think thats the chapter)...


Why does no one ask these questions?

--------------

"did you know that "elect" in the greek translation means "remnant, called out, chosen"........did you know that the pattern in scripture is that this remnant comes "out of" the body, it's never the entire "body" of the church. It's a remant. "
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Orson Pratt's works
NEW JERUSALEM

"Let the bishop read this to the elders, that they may warn the members of the
scourge that is coming, except they repent.
Tell them to read the Book of Mormon
and obey it ; read the commandments that are printed and obey them : yea, humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God,
that peradventure he may turn away his anger from you.
Tell them that they have not come up to Zion to sit down in idleness,
neglecting the things of God, but they are to be diligent and faithful in obeying
the new covenant.
There is one clause in Brother Joseph's letter which you may not understand
that is this, " if the people of Zion did not repent, the Lord would seek another place and another people." Zion is the place where the temple will be built, and the people gathered, but all people upon that holy land being under condemnation, the Lord will cut off if they repent not, and bring another race upon it that will serve him.
The Lord will seek another place to bring forth and prepare his word to go forth to the nations, and as we said before so say we again,
Brother Joseph will not settle in Zion, except she repent and serve God, and obey the new covenant.
With this explanation the conference sanctions Brother Joseph's letter."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“But the time will come when the Lord will choose a people out of this people upon whom he will bestow his choicest blessings.”
(Heber C. Kimball, Des. News, Nov. 9, 1865; see J.D. 11:145)

eddie wrote: ↑June 18th, 2018, 5:21 pm In chapter 14, verse 10, [1 Ne. 14:10] however, Nephi describes the archetypical categories: “There are save two churches only”—the church of the Lamb of God, or Zion; and the church of the devil, or Babylon. “Whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.”

Apocalyptic literature is dualistic. Since it deals with types, everything boils down to opposing principles: love and hate, good and evil, light and dark. There are no gray areas in apocalyptic writing. In this sense, there are only two categories in the realm of religion: religion that will save and religion that won’t. The former is the church of the Lamb, and the latter, no matter how well intentioned, is a counterfeit.

In the historical sense, though, only one entity can be the great and abominable church. Well-intentioned churches would thus not qualify as the mother of abominations described in 1 Nephi 13. They do not slay the saints of God nor seek to control civil governments nor pursue wealth, luxury, and sexual immorality.

In either the apocalyptic sense or the historical sense, individual orientation to the Church of the Lamb or to the great and abominable church is not by membership but by loyalty. Just as there are Latter-day Saints who belong to the great and abominable church because of their loyalty to Satan and his life-style, so there are members of other churches who belong to the Lamb because of their loyalty to him and his life-style. Membership is based more on who has your heart than on who has your records.

Some Latter-day Saints have erred in believing that some specific denomination, to the exclusion of all others, has since the beginning of time been the great and abominable church. This is dangerous, for many will then want to know which it is, and an antagonistic relationship with that denomination will inevitably follow.

Warring Against The Saints Of God
Stephen E. Robinson

Absolutely, great post. I would like to add to your post. The "whore" who sits on many waters, is symbolic of an adulterer.....spiritual adultery that is! Anciently, in the old testament, we find this pattern over and over with the jews in the old testament, they repeatedly fall into idol worship They were worshiping false Gods.....they were spiritual adulterers. (I would compare this to the pride cycle in the book of mormon...same thing, different idols).

Now to the pattern in scripture.....Found within the jewish ordinances....a woman who was menstruating, i.e. hemorrhaging, or having an issue of blood, could not sit on anything or she made it "unclean"......in fact to become clean, she had to separate herself for seven days following her menstrual cycle, and then offer 2 doves at the altar of the jewish temple, followed by the custom of ritually bathing in the miskvah.......(which was symbolic of being washed like a baptism"....the water in the miskvah had to be from a spring or moving source of water.....this is symbolic. Guess who offered living water...Jesus Christ, to the woman at the well, says he would have given living water. Visualize a woman and this custom/ordinance....and then visualize the next passage of scripture found in Genesis.

The exact "pattern" of this spiritual adultery is found in Genesis 31. When Jacob is fleeing from his "taskmaster father-in-law" who has repeatedly dealt unjustly with him. His father-in-law jethro, is looking for his "images" which are translated to be idols. Jacob lets him search his things, declaring that he had not taken them (the idols), HOWEVER, what jacob doesn't know is that Rachel took her fathers "images" and is "sitting on them"....she claims that she can't get up because she is "menstruating"......She has hidden "idols" and is sitting on them.

What she is sitting on "symbolically" is unclean. The whore who sits on may waters, is an idol worshiper, and what she sits on makes them unclean. Notices how the whore makes the waters unclean...NOT the other way around. In the proper washing of the ordinance, at the very end, the waters make the woman clean.

We have a symbolic "backwards" pattern of corrupting "living water"........

Now, adding another layer.....have you ever read the book of enoch, or even stories of solomon. They are "sons of god" who take wives who introduce them into idol worship. This is the sin of Solomon, as well as the mighty men of renown. Basically, they fall into spiritual adultery because of "these women," who also worship idols.

Now, this isn't a bag on women. Im a woman, and I don't think this is a male or female thing, BUT it is a Church of God, vs. Church of the devil thing. It's the Whore of all the earth, who sits on many waters thing.

Hope you can see the pattern, and customs written throughout scripture that explain some of these passages. Really, the endgame battle is separating true worshipers from false worshipers. Finding and discovering Christ, well, that's why the numbers are few.

This is why the Jews have the custom of removing levin, "yeast" from bread to prepare for their flight at night. Its almost night, and we must remove the "levin of the pharisees".

Pardon all my spelling errors.

I AM wrote: ↑June 18th, 2018, 8:15 pm

TrueIntent wrote: ↑June 18th, 2018, 2:44 pm

AI2.0 wrote: ↑June 17th, 2018, 9:01 am Joseph Smith jr. restored a church which hold Priesthood keys and priesthood authority, along with ONE PROPHET who heads the church and receives revelation for the whole church.

We may not have what Joseph defined a 'creed' to be, but Joseph certainly established doctrine and expected that it defined our beliefs--an example are the Articles of Faith. Also, our belief in living prophets, priesthood authority, baptism by immersion, to name some. If a person started teaching things that were not part of the doctrine, Joseph Smith jr. had no problem cutting them off, or excommunicating them.

We do the same thing today. If someone is going around teaching doctrines (an example is someone who continues to advocate for the present day practice of polygamy) which are not taught by our living Prophet, then that person is in danger of being excommunicated--the same as in Joseph's day.

We are expected to strive for revelation, but the revelation we receive and accept needs to be in harmony with the doctrines and teachings of the church as taught by our living prophets.

Every member needs to be aware that Satan can deceive them and if they don't recognize this, and stubbornly refuse to be corrected by their leaders (who hold stewardship over them) when they are called in because they've been preaching/living false doctrines, then they run the risk of being cut off from the body of the Saints--but that is their choice.

Peter held the keys in the new testament.....we find in our temple ceremony....Peter kneels at the alter, and the patrons, in a circle, kneel around him exchanging tokens and signs, praying for the "sick and the afflicted" in the TRUE ORDER......Then those same patrons walk to the veil, and exchange their understanding of the tokens and signs they have received with GOD.....God says that is correct (or not correct depending on who you are and what you believe your tokens and signs mean)......Why on earth are we receiving and endowment????? only apostles are given an endowment i.e. endowed with power. I don't understand why you believe that only "one Prophet" speaks for you, and yet you are receiving and ordinance for an "endowment. you contradict yourself.

A prophet, like moses, could communicate with God through the veil. We are supposed to be communicating with God through the veil to understanding last day prophecy, and fulfill it. Why are we, as members of the LDS church, communicating through the veil if a "ONE PROPHET" is supposed to do all the talking for us? Maybe because some stuff in Revelation and Isaiah still needs to be fulfilled, and a bunch of last days servants are supposed to do it....and maybe joseph smith taught this.

Maybe, What I AM is teaching, is in harmony with the doctrines and teachings of the church. Remember, the book of mormon, and every pattern in scriptures teaches that a "remnant comes forth".......did you know that "elect" in the greek translation means "remnant, called out, chosen"........did you know that the pattern in scripture is that this remnant comes "out of" the body, it's never the entire "body" of the church. It's a remant. This is why Paul says, not all who are Israel are Israel.....well not all who claim to be mormons are mormons, and not all who claim to be follows of christ are actually followers of Christ.

Did you know, that Paul claimed right before the apostasy of the early christian church, and "elect" body was being gathered "out of them..." They were called a remnant. Why is Revelations and Isaiah (the passages found in the BOM" teaching? Why did joseph smith take time to careful add notes to Revelation 17 (i think thats the chapter)...


Why does no one ask these questions?

--------------

"did you know that "elect" in the greek translation means "remnant, called out, chosen"........did you know that the pattern in scripture is that this remnant comes "out of" the body, it's never the entire "body" of the church. It's a remant. "
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Orson Pratt's works
NEW JERUSALEM

"Let the bishop read this to the elders, that they may warn the members of the
scourge that is coming, except they repent.
Tell them to read the Book of Mormon
and obey it ; read the commandments that are printed and obey them : yea, humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God,
that peradventure he may turn away his anger from you.
Tell them that they have not come up to Zion to sit down in idleness,
neglecting the things of God, but they are to be diligent and faithful in obeying
the new covenant.
There is one clause in Brother Joseph's letter which you may not understand
that is this, " if the people of Zion did not repent, the Lord would seek another place and another people." Zion is the place where the temple will be built, and the people gathered, but all people upon that holy land being under condemnation, the Lord will cut off if they repent not, and bring another race upon it that will serve him.
The Lord will seek another place to bring forth and prepare his word to go forth to the nations, and as we said before so say we again,
Brother Joseph will not settle in Zion, except she repent and serve God, and obey the new covenant.
With this explanation the conference sanctions Brother Joseph's letter."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“But the time will come when the Lord will choose a people out of this people upon whom he will bestow his choicest blessings.”
(Heber C. Kimball, Des. News, Nov. 9, 1865; see J.D. 11:145)

Yeah....this makes me sad...because I know the remnant is gathering..so tell me? What does Isaiah say, ????? Do we? Do we repent and establish Zion? Is this the final time? Do we obey the new covenant, do the daughters of Zion put off the crisping pins and pagan clothing, and put on something beautiful?

I want to add, for those who dont know what crisping pins are....they were pins worn in the hair. Did you also know that these pins, were typically made out of gold, and in pagan/cultic worship customs, the woman would leave these pins at altars of their fertility Gods. It was an offering for good fortune in the event of a birth, or during or after........More symbols of idol worship in Isaiah......it says the daughters of Zion are wearing crisping pins. Basically, they have ornamented their outer instead of the inner...and they did this because they worship false Gods.....Gods who won't deliver them sons. They were barren women who couldn't produce children (women with reproach).....but in that day, zion will become beautiful.....and 7 women will take hold of one man (and I'm not talking about polygamy), and they will eat their own bread (manna from heaven) and wear their own apparel (put on the garment) if only they can be called by HIS name....the name of Christ.

And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.

New understanding added to Isaiah......its all about these barren women, like sarah, Leah, etc....that conceive. Woman of the priesthood who bear HIS name.

TrueIntent, nice name...

You are fast and loose with your interpretations. Might be right but definitely not a plain reading of scripture.

ajax wrote: ↑June 17th, 2018, 9:48 pm I think the two churches thing is becoming more clear as time moves on. It has nothing to do with denominations. One is based on love, mercy, peace and non-compulsion. The other is based on coercion and violence - not just your run of the mill neighborhood thug, but institutionalized coercion and violence, i.e. the State or statism, which has its own symbols and hymns and parties and holidays. Jesus was tempted with the kingdoms of this world, and he rejected them and overcame them with love. I can't love my neighbor while at the same time threatening him with a club to fund my pet projects or visions of society.

Everything is becoming a political question now. Will we reject it fully and completely? Or will we get sucked into the fray and seek institutionalized power to "make things right"?

Two churches
The Kingdom of God vs the Kingdom of the devil
Two masters

The prophet Isaiah tends to agree with you ajax. The line in the sand with Isaiah has nothing to do religious denominations, but rather those who repent and those who do not. The repentant and the unrepentant. Isaiah condemns Israel (who Isaiah Identifies as gods children; Isaiah 1:2) and the shepherds leading his children proceeding the second coming (Woe unto Israel). He also condemns all nations, even mentions leaders by name. It's all one and the same really. Isaiah basically condemns the whole world including Israel. And that is a key to understanding Isaiah, good or bad, we ALL have need of repentance.

Original_Intent wrote: ↑June 18th, 2018, 9:44 pm TrueIntent, nice name...

You are fast and loose with your interpretations. Might be right but definitely not a plain reading of scripture.

Thanks. Ditto on the name. My interpretations pattern the “patterns” found in multiple books of scripture. The confusion comes in translation errors as well as our own church interpretations that cloud original meaning. If you will refer to original Greek translations of words, you will see my interpretations line up. All scripture will parallel ordinances. Once you learn Jewish ordinances, (our Mormon ordinances) pagan Cultic worship and Christ interpretations in the new testMent scripture becomes clear. The next challenge is, sorting out the pagan worship from the true worship.....and let’s just say I received some personal revelation that does not contradict this pattern either. Otherwise I wouldnt dare to be so “ loose”. It’s only clarified meaning. Its all one baptism. (Ephesians 4:5)

Btw....I don’t contradict Jospeh smith translation either....so I’m always happy to be challenge on my interpretations so I can further clarify them. I want to get closer to truth just like the next guy.

True Intent and I AM.

I do not agree with the belief that the LDS church is corrupt, headed for apostasy or in apostasy. I do not believe that God is taking out of the LDS church the 'elect' or a remnant and with those he will continue his work. This is an attitude some on the forum espouse and a driving force behind many of the self proclaimed 'prophets' that constantly spring up.

I do not believe that having a prophet at the head of the church means the rest of the members are not ableto/or should not receive revelation, though this is a common allegation made against devout members. I believe in stewardship, that we all should and many do receive revelation on a daily basis, but I don't believe that I should listen to or heed the counsel of someone who claims they are receiving revelation for me when they hold no stewardship over me. I reject them and their claims.

I believe that the church organization was set up to have a living prophet as President to receive revelation for the church as a whole and that he is the only one authorized to do so.

That is the way this has been done since the days of Joseph Smith jr. and it continues today with Pres. Nelson.

This forum seems to attract many people who don't agree with me on these points, but I'm confident that the majority of the members of the LDS church believe as I do, because this is a basic doctrine in our faith.

Jesef wrote: ↑June 17th, 2018, 7:17 pm Do the math (logic) here:
1) God is Loving, Kind, Good, Benevolent, Merciful, Fair, Equitable, Competent, Intelligent, Patient, etc.., Perfect.
2) Our Heavenly Parents sent Billions of Their spirit children to earth, mortal/physical life to learn & grow.
3) 99.999%+ of them do not possess nor ever will in their entire lifetimes the version of the Gospel with all its requirements that we say is crucial for salvation & exaltation (I.e. eternal success).

Now, remaining consistent with the perfect character of God (Heavenly Parents) - & without getting frustrated - & without being ridiculous - answer me Why?

I don't know the reasons "why" so many lived without the Gospel any more than you do, but I know God is aware of it and I know He, with his perfect character, revealed what we're supposed to do about it.


“I will open your eyes in relation to the dead. All things whatsoever God in his infinite wisdom has seen fit and proper to reveal to us, while we are dwelling in mortality, in regard to our mortal bodies, are revealed to us in the abstract, and independent of affinity of this mortal tabernacle, but are revealed to our spirits precisely as though we had no bodies at all; and those revelations which will save our spirits will save our bodies. God reveals them to us in view of no eternal dissolution of the body, or tabernacle. Hence the responsibility, the awful responsibility, that rests upon us in relation to our dead; for all the spirits who have not obeyed the Gospel in the flesh must either obey it in the spirit or be damned. Solemn thought!—dreadful thought! Is there nothing to be done?—no preparation—no salvation for our fathers and friends who have died without having had the opportunity to obey the decrees of the Son of Man? …
“What promises are made in relation to the subject of the salvation of the dead? and what kind of characters are those who can be saved, although their bodies are moldering and decaying in the grave? When His commandments teach us, it is in view of eternity; for we are looked upon by God as though we were in eternity; God dwells in eternity, and does not view things as we do.
“The greatest responsibility in this world that God has laid upon us is to seek after our dead. The apostle says, ‘They without us cannot be made perfect’ [see Hebrews 11:40]; for it is necessary that the sealing power should be in our hands to seal our children and our dead for the fulness of the dispensation of times—a dispensation to meet the promises made by Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world for the salvation of man.
“… It is necessary that those who are going before and those who come after us should have salvation in common with us; and thus hath God made it obligatory upon man. Hence, God said, ‘I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.’ [Malachi 4:5–6.]” -Joseph Smith

So much impractical (not practice-able) theological & even mythological nonsense here. It’s almost nauseating and at the very least endlessly exhausting. It seems almost like pretend, or role-playing, or fantasy cos-play (where people dress up in costumes like at sci-fi/fantasy conventions - I think they are termed LARPers = Live Action Role-Players). But it still strikes people’s fancy & takes up a ton of their time. But hey, life does seem like a game or a play, doesn’t it? I think we’re probably better off just logging off and spending time with real, live, loved ones. But maybe I’m wrong & this is really the important stuff! Or maybe it’s all a wash, just don’t be harmful. I don’t think you guys really KNOW - I think you just believe a lot. And that’s okay too.

We can’t view “this life” in terms of only our earthly mortal life. The spirit world is an intricate part of our progression and learning. We don’t need another “mortal” earthly probabtion with what we know about the spirit world:

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Only 8 righteous? So how many did he (meaning those he commissioned) preach to? Why did he preach to them? Why preach if there was not an opportunity to change or repent? (Did he just want to make them feel bad?) How long will some people be in the spirit world without the barriers of a mortal body to slow down potential learning (sleep, need to eat, etc) imagine the opportunity to preach and effect change. The real issue is that we have limited revelation on the spirit world and what takes place, how repentance and learning work there, but make no mistake there is ample opportunity by a perfectly just and merciful god to learn. Keep in mind there are always consequences to sin, always. You can’t pick up one end of the consequence stick without the other end rising with it.

Jonesy wrote: ↑June 17th, 2018, 8:49 pm

Jesef wrote: ↑June 17th, 2018, 8:32 pm You're frustrated by uncertainty? Better check yourself. This is the human condition. Pretending to know isn't really knowledge. You've been wrong - fundamentally - before, and you will be again. You could be right now. Humility is a bummer, huh?

What I'm "on about" is use your head, think, reason! So I'll repeat this, since no one really answered:

Do the math (logic) here:
1) God is Loving, Kind, Good, Benevolent, Merciful, Fair, Equitable, Competent, Intelligent, Patient, etc.., Perfect.
2) Our Heavenly Parents sent Billions of Their spirit children to earth, mortal/physical life to learn & grow.
3) 99.999%+ of them do not possess nor ever will in their entire lifetimes the version of the Gospel with all its requirements that we say is crucial for salvation & exaltation (I.e. eternal success).

Now, remaining consistent with the perfect character of God (Heavenly Parents) - & without getting frustrated - & without being ridiculous - answer me Why?

Perhaps frustrated that that’s all you’re really saying; that there’s so much uncertainty.

Or just cut to the chase and give us the answer. I don’t think my thoughts are coming across to you. I think AI2.0 already gave a good answer of things we know, anyways.

viewtopic.php?p=862310#p862323

Are you offering an alternative? If not, then why sow seeds of “uncertainty”?

That isn't all he offered was a statement that there is much uncertainty. He provided an argument and postulated a question for you. Why don't you attempt to answer it with sincerity and real intent?

He is saying that just because you act like you know or just because you think you know, with all your heart, it doesn't mean that you actually know or that what you think you know is true. There is in fact an inconsistency that exist in your currently postulated belief system. In other words, what you've stated as your belief, has holes in it and it doesn't fit the evidence. Yo, yo, yo, check it!

https://www.lds.org/media-library/video ... h?lang=eng

-Finrock

Jesef wrote: ↑June 19th, 2018, 12:16 pm So much impractical (not practice-able) theological & even mythological nonsense here. It’s almost nauseating and at the very least endlessly exhausting. It seems almost like pretend, or role-playing, or fantasy cos-play (where people dress up in costumes like at sci-fi/fantasy conventions - I think they are termed LARPers = Live Action Role-Players). But it still strikes people’s fancy & takes up a ton of their time. But hey, life does seem like a game or a play, doesn’t it? I think we’re probably better off just logging off and spending time with real, live, loved ones. But maybe I’m wrong & this is really the important stuff! Or maybe it’s all a wash, just don’t be harmful. I don’t think you guys really KNOW - I think you just believe a lot. And that’s okay too.

One could make a similar argument towards your comments. Also, you're right, I don't know, I believe, but as long as it turns out to be true and I'm acting on my belief in Christ, who I eventually can know, then I will be able to know and until that time it is faith which is how we begin our life. I would argue, however, that you don't "KNOW" either. So really we're all just arguing with each other over something that won't change any one of our minds. The only true way to know is through lots of prayer and crying unto the Lord for knowledge and being extremely aware of our own inherent biases that might cause us to be influenced incorrectly. For there are good spirits and bad spirits an opposite in all things. So are we being guided by good or bad? Only we can know by obtaining a pure and virtuous heart, crying unto the Lord for the gift of charity (not as the world knows it, but as Christ embodies it), and asking the Lord for the gift of discerning of spirits. When we obtain those three things we can then begin to "KNOW" truth. I wish you luck in your endeavors.

What helps me most is realizing that Christ really didn't like hypocrites (One who feigns to be what he is not; one who has the form of godliness without the power, or who assumes an appearance of piety and virtue, when he is destitute of true religion.) So I admit that I may be wrong, but I am trying and I will not try to appear as something that I am not. All I am right now is someone running the race, and stumbling. sometimes I get a second wind, and other times I stumble and fall. I can tell you right now though in regards to this topic that despite all of my knowledge, I am choosing the Church of the devil - Babylon. Why? because I aspire too much ot the honors and comforts of the world rather than to God. I constantly choose entertainment, and seek after things that will canker and rust. That being said, compared to most people, they would believe I was "good." However, I know my heart and I know that I need to change, so I am seeking to want to change so I can choose the Church of the Lamb. I just hope that I don't choose too late. However, in the meantime I have no problem telling you that I sin much more than others because the knowledge I have obtained places more responsibility on me. I can no longer feign ignorance, because I do know that for me, everything I do is a choice. I also do know that the Atonement of Christ i.e. Christ Himself can change us as he changed me at one point to where I could see that I am nothing because everything else obeys Him, but I am rebellious and choose not to - though at one point in my life I dedicated every breathing moment to Him. Again, I do not mean to say again, that I am wicked compared to the rest of the world or even members of the church, but I am wicked because I do not live up to the expectations and the knowledge I have. As Joseph Smith once said "I do not want you to think that I am very righteous, for I am not, God judges men according to the use they make of the light which He gives them." I have made poor use of the light I have received and until I repent will be under condemnation. Thus for now, I have not chosen the Church of the Lamb. Again I hope I will choose His church, but for now I don't want to, so when I remember I am praying for the desire to want to change and I have confidence that the Lord will grant me that desire if I am willing to sacrifice what He asks. Otherwise I will remain outside of the Church of the Lamb.