LDS Freedom Forum

Posted: **June 15th, 2018, 2:29 pm**

https://www.sltrib.com/opinion/commenta ... ansparency

FRIDAY, JUNE 15, 2018

Commentary: LDS Church needs more financial transparency

Would the Prince of Peace hide links to companies that invest consecrated funds for weapons of mass destruction?

By Samuel Wolfe | For The Tribune

MormonLeaks’ recent discovery of what looks like LDS Church-owned firms bearing stock-market investments valued at more than $32 billion is cause for renewed calls for financial transparency. Use of secret companies and reliance on a few lines from an accounting firm at General Conference are not good enough.

Recently in my ward’s sacrament meeting, a speaker claimed that tithing is also used to relieve global poverty and hunger. No one corrected her, even though the church’s own website doesn’t say that. Leaders’ denial of financial information fosters misperceptions, leaving members to blindly trust a huge bureaucracy to manage what they devote to God.

Members pay tithing to “store up treasure in heaven.” The church invests tens of billions of dollars of heaven’s treasure in major industries such as oil (like Exxon with a devastating environmental record), banking (firms at front of a global economic system of gross inequality), pharmaceuticals (lucrative companies that make themselves the true beneficiaries of broken health systems often denying adequate care to those who suffer most), and even major arms dealers (that sell all methods of mayhem including fighter jets, bombers and missiles).

Jesus taught that peacemakers will inherit the Earth. Would the Prince of Peace hide links to companies that invest consecrated funds for weapons of mass destruction that militaristic governments use to kill people while he simultaneously preached the end times? The church apparently does.

Some members therefore wrongly assume identity between the institutional church and almighty God. Jesus forsook the world and its riches by living by the word of God — by faith. He taught to give riches to the poor as a path to perfection, which he emulated by owning nothing.

The modern church is rich. The Book of Mormon teaches that with wealth comes a tendency toward pride and corruption. In the last days, churches “have all gone out of the way; they have become corrupted. … They rob the poor because of their fine sanctuaries; they rob the poor because of their fine clothing. … They have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ” (2 Nephi 28:13-14).

Yes, a global institution requires a large operating budget. Yes, if we give full benefit of doubt to those in power, the vast wealth of the church sustains and builds the Kingdom of God. Wealth is preserved to serve God’s purposes, yet to unfold. I hope so.

If so, why not allow light to shine on how the church spends and invests all consecrated funds and runs all its business interests? Otherwise, members who sacrifice adequate food and basic family needs to pay tithing to the church may not realize that the church hands a portion not to those in greatest need, but to mega-companies that serve mammon: a love of money, “the root of all evil” (1 Tim. 6:10).

If so, why not allow light to shine on untold millions spent for political battles, as against U.S. marriage equality that the church ultimately lost?

When will church members finally be “ready” for the celestial law of consecration when the church is so flush with tithing?

Churches and individuals alike will answer to God as stewards, including with respect to our offerings. The church owes transparent accounting to enable members’ assessment of its institutional worthiness as a true agent of God’s funds. The church should rise to its profession of being the Kingdom of God: separate and holy from the current world of inequality and plunder so at odds with the prophet Joseph’s vision of Zion.

Samuel Wolfe is a writer and attorney living in Mexico City.

Thoughts?

Posted: **June 15th, 2018, 2:41 pm**

I agree with all that was posted there. If the church has enough funds to risk money on the open market where there is manipulation and fraud, then there needs to be 100% financial transparency where the tithing money is going exactly. It was recently revealed that almost all the tithing money from here in Canada actually goes to fund BYU. There are no BYU campus's here in Canada...

How much money did the church lose of tithing funds during the financial crisis in 2008?

I completely do not believe the church should be a stockholder in many of the companies listed in their portfolio for ethical and morale reasons.

Posted: **June 15th, 2018, 2:47 pm**

Sunain wrote: ↑June 15th, 2018, 2:41 pm I agree with all that was posted there. If the church has enough funds to risk money on the open market where there is manipulation and fraud, then there needs to be 100% financial transparency where the tithing money is going exactly. It was recently revealed that almost all the tithing money from here in Canada actually goes to fund BYU. There are no BYU campus's here in Canada...

How much money did the church lose of tithing funds during the financial crisis in 2008?

I completely do not believe the church should be a stockholder in many of the companies listed in their portfolio for ethical and morale reasons.

I have heard that the reason Canadian and British tithes go to BYU is because those countries require an accounting of the funds. I'm sure it seems more palatable to see one's donated funds going to a church university, even if you don't have kids going to school there, than to see those funds going into the US stock market or a ritzy mall and condo complex.

Posted: **June 15th, 2018, 2:49 pm**

I see absolutely no reason for church financial transparency.

In fact to the contrary I see a need for a certain high level of confidentiality to what the church may do with money.

Just the tip of the iceberg is what knowledge of the church or any other large organization coming into an area to build will do to real estate prices in that area.

I thinks it's the business of the church and their managers and "professionals" to take care of all that. And I do not want to be burden with the concern of it.
dc

Posted: **June 15th, 2018, 2:52 pm**

Lizzy60 wrote: ↑June 15th, 2018, 2:47 pm
Sunain wrote: ↑June 15th, 2018, 2:41 pm I agree with all that was posted there. If the church has enough funds to risk money on the open market where there is manipulation and fraud, then there needs to be 100% financial transparency where the tithing money is going exactly. It was recently revealed that almost all the tithing money from here in Canada actually goes to fund BYU. There are no BYU campus's here in Canada...

How much money did the church lose of tithing funds during the financial crisis in 2008?

I completely do not believe the church should be a stockholder in many of the companies listed in their portfolio for ethical and morale reasons.
I have heard that the reason Canadian and British tithes go to BYU is because those countries require an accounting of the funds. I'm sure it seems more palatable to see one's donated funds going to a church university, even if you don't have kids going to school there, than to see those funds going into the US stock market or a ritzy mall and condo complex.

I am well aware that ritzy malls and condo complexes (particularly if they are 'ritzy' or upscale) can make a lot of money. So, I don't know, and don't need to know and don't want to know if the church does that or not, but if they do, I'm all for them wisely using the money.
dc

Posted: **June 15th, 2018, 2:55 pm**

David13 wrote: ↑June 15th, 2018, 2:52 pm
Lizzy60 wrote: ↑June 15th, 2018, 2:47 pm
Sunain wrote: ↑June 15th, 2018, 2:41 pm I agree with all that was posted there. If the church has enough funds to risk money on the open market where there is manipulation and fraud, then there needs to be 100% financial transparency where the tithing money is going exactly. It was recently revealed that almost all the tithing money from here in Canada actually goes to fund BYU. There are no BYU campus's here in Canada...

How much money did the church lose of tithing funds during the financial crisis in 2008?

I completely do not believe the church should be a stockholder in many of the companies listed in their portfolio for ethical and morale reasons.
I have heard that the reason Canadian and British tithes go to BYU is because those countries require an accounting of the funds. I'm sure it seems more palatable to see one's donated funds going to a church university, even if you don't have kids going to school there, than to see those funds going into the US stock market or a ritzy mall and condo complex.
I am well aware that ritzy malls and condo complexes (particularly if they are 'ritzy' or upscale) can make a lot of money. So, I don't know, and don't need to know and don't want to know if the church does that or not, but if they do, I'm all for them wisely using the money.
dc

The Corporation of the......Church.... is invested in Babylon, and why? Because they have a LOT of $$$$$$$ and they want to make even more $$$$$$$$. It's not going to end well, all the secrecy, and all the investments.

Posted: **June 15th, 2018, 3:00 pm**

An acceptable level of transparency and accountability can be achieved without giving up necessary confidentiality. For example, none believe that the names of individuals or families who have received welfare assistance should be published. But that easily achieved by simply grouping all the welfare assistance into generic headings/categories such as (Fiscal Year) Total Welfare assistance rendered - Mortgage payments; Total Welfare assistance rendered - Rent payments; Total Welfare assistance rendered - Utilities payments, different forms of Humanitarian aid, including recipient countries, governments, or other agencies or relief organizations, non-profits, etc. And similar buckets/categories for investments. I see no reason to hide already spent/bought real estate properties, specific stocks, bonds, etc. Those don't violate anyone's personal privacy or embarrass anyone. But they do show how the money is being spent or invested. I am all for transparency. The tithe-paying members have a right to know these things. The stewards are servants, not masters. I believe they are not only accountable to the Lord but to us, the body.

Posted: **June 15th, 2018, 3:16 pm**

Jesef wrote: ↑June 15th, 2018, 3:00 pm An acceptable level of transparency and accountability can be achieved without giving up necessary confidentiality. For example, none believe that the names of individuals or families who have received welfare assistance should be published. But that easily achieved by simply grouping all the welfare assistance into generic headings/categories such as (Fiscal Year) Total Welfare assistance rendered - Mortgage payments; Total Welfare assistance rendered - Rent payments; Total Welfare assistance rendered - Utilities payments, different forms of Humanitarian aid, including recipient countries, governments, or other agencies or relief organizations, non-profits, etc. And similar buckets/categories for investments. I see no reason to hide already spent/bought real estate properties, specific stocks, bonds, etc. Those don't violate anyone's personal privacy or embarrass anyone. But they do show how the money is being spent or invested. I am all for transparency. The tithe-paying members have a right to know these things. The stewards are servants, not masters. I believe they are not only accountable to the Lord but to us, the body.

Jesef
I see that as nothing but unnecessary bragging and boasting, pride to far too great of an extent, and my emotional reaction would be one of sorrow and insignificance by comparison. It would make me feel minuscule and insignificant.
I could obtain no joy from it at all.
dc

Posted: **June 15th, 2018, 4:13 pm**

It's really no different than our current statistical report, with total numbers of members - and I think they could become more transparent here with real activity numbers, such as, active members, full-tithe-paying & temple-recommend-holder numbers, etc. - numbers of wards, stakes, missions, missionaries, etc.

Posted: **June 15th, 2018, 4:23 pm**

What’s a few nuclear weapons among friends.

Considering what said head of the church has planned at the end of the millennium.

Posted: **June 15th, 2018, 4:32 pm**

Col., why are there two threads on this?

Posted: **June 15th, 2018, 5:22 pm**

Jesef wrote: ↑June 15th, 2018, 4:32 pm Col., why are there two threads on this?

There's not that I am aware of - I posted the link in the 'Church Finances' thread to show what sort of companies we are invested in, but I haven't seen a dual post for the article.

Posted: **June 15th, 2018, 5:32 pm**

i wish i could read it, but whenever i open up sltrib the spirit leaves

Posted: **June 15th, 2018, 5:34 pm**

Col. Flagg wrote: ↑June 15th, 2018, 5:22 pm
Jesef wrote: ↑June 15th, 2018, 4:32 pm Col., why are there two threads on this?
There's not that I am aware of - I posted the link in the 'Church Finances' thread to show what sort of companies we are invested in, but I haven't seen a dual post for the article.

This is the other thread:
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=48623

Is it not the same topic?

Posted: **June 15th, 2018, 5:45 pm**

David13 wrote: ↑June 15th, 2018, 2:49 pm I see absolutely no reason for church financial transparency.

In fact to the contrary I see a need for a certain high level of confidentiality to what the church may do with money.

Just the tip of the iceberg is what knowledge of the church or any other large organization coming into an area to build will do to real estate prices in that area.

I thinks it's the business of the church and their managers and "professionals" to take care of all that. And I do not want to be burden with the concern of it.
dc

yes. the church is accountable to the Lord, not to its members.

aside from your comment, personally it seems to me that col flagg seems to think that tithe payers have some kind of claim on these funds, as if the money were actually theirs to begin with. that notion is foolish. the 10% which members pay never belonged to them in the first place. it was always the Lord’s. hear that Flagg? the Lord’s. stop trying to call out church leaders for what you think is misappropriation of the Lord’s money. maybe you just don’t have faith in God’s ability to run his own church, or direct his own funds.

are you the lords financial representative?? do you hold that priesthood office? no?

...

then please excuse me when i brush your posts (which chiefly seem to be about monetary issues - clearly indicating where your heart and mind are) aside, like salt that lost its savour. i’m sure that i will achieve no loss in spirituality, in financial stability, or anything, in doing so.

you remind me a lot of people on my mission who refused to pay tithing. but whether you yourself do (i’m not asking), clearly the spirit is not in the right place. based on what i’ve read of your posts, you might not as well not even, as you clearly don’t see the persons in charge of it as being inspired of God (as well of God’s ownership and ability to direct these very funds). might as well save some bucks, its all you can hope to get here.

what do you hope to achieve in posting these things? to whistleblow? to make church members aware? as if church members can override the apostles and the appropriation of the Lord’s funds? if so, then you are advocating apostasy, and fighting against God’s church, His fundamental principles of adminstration, and His ordained leaders. seems to me you stand on slippery gound. forgive me that i don’t join you thereon.

Posted: **June 15th, 2018, 7:15 pm**

Puts Mod Cap On

MOD MAN Is here!

I noticed that there were two duplicate topics on the same subject, both started by Col. Flagg. Merged them together.

Redundancy Fixed! Your welcome!

*Hears a fake person screaming that they are being trolled*

What's that? A Troll? DONT WORRY CITIZEN! MOD MAN IS ON THE WAAAAAAYYYYYYY....

*Clumsily Jumps out the window of the thread. Moments later you hear a crash and a car Alarm starts blaring...*

I'M OKAY!

Takes Mod Cap Off

Posted: **June 15th, 2018, 8:12 pm**

Col. Flagg wrote: ↑June 15th, 2018, 2:29 pm https://www.sltrib.com/opinion/commenta ... ansparency

FRIDAY, JUNE 15, 2018

Commentary: LDS Church needs more financial transparency

Would the Prince of Peace hide links to companies that invest consecrated funds for weapons of mass destruction?

By Samuel Wolfe | For The Tribune

MormonLeaks’ recent discovery of what looks like LDS Church-owned firms bearing stock-market investments valued at more than $32 billion is cause for renewed calls for financial transparency. Use of secret companies and reliance on a few lines from an accounting firm at General Conference are not good enough.

Recently in my ward’s sacrament meeting, a speaker claimed that tithing is also used to relieve global poverty and hunger. No one corrected her, even though the church’s own website doesn’t say that. Leaders’ denial of financial information fosters misperceptions, leaving members to blindly trust a huge bureaucracy to manage what they devote to God.

Members pay tithing to “store up treasure in heaven.” The church invests tens of billions of dollars of heaven’s treasure in major industries such as oil (like Exxon with a devastating environmental record), banking (firms at front of a global economic system of gross inequality), pharmaceuticals (lucrative companies that make themselves the true beneficiaries of broken health systems often denying adequate care to those who suffer most), and even major arms dealers (that sell all methods of mayhem including fighter jets, bombers and missiles).

Jesus taught that peacemakers will inherit the Earth. Would the Prince of Peace hide links to companies that invest consecrated funds for weapons of mass destruction that militaristic governments use to kill people while he simultaneously preached the end times? The church apparently does.

Some members therefore wrongly assume identity between the institutional church and almighty God. Jesus forsook the world and its riches by living by the word of God — by faith. He taught to give riches to the poor as a path to perfection, which he emulated by owning nothing.

The modern church is rich. The Book of Mormon teaches that with wealth comes a tendency toward pride and corruption. In the last days, churches “have all gone out of the way; they have become corrupted. … They rob the poor because of their fine sanctuaries; they rob the poor because of their fine clothing. … They have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ” (2 Nephi 28:13-14).

Yes, a global institution requires a large operating budget. Yes, if we give full benefit of doubt to those in power, the vast wealth of the church sustains and builds the Kingdom of God. Wealth is preserved to serve God’s purposes, yet to unfold. I hope so.

If so, why not allow light to shine on how the church spends and invests all consecrated funds and runs all its business interests? Otherwise, members who sacrifice adequate food and basic family needs to pay tithing to the church may not realize that the church hands a portion not to those in greatest need, but to mega-companies that serve mammon: a love of money, “the root of all evil” (1 Tim. 6:10).

If so, why not allow light to shine on untold millions spent for political battles, as against U.S. marriage equality that the church ultimately lost?

When will church members finally be “ready” for the celestial law of consecration when the church is so flush with tithing?

Churches and individuals alike will answer to God as stewards, including with respect to our offerings. The church owes transparent accounting to enable members’ assessment of its institutional worthiness as a true agent of God’s funds. The church should rise to its profession of being the Kingdom of God: separate and holy from the current world of inequality and plunder so at odds with the prophet Joseph’s vision of Zion.

Samuel Wolfe is a writer and attorney living in Mexico City.

Thoughts?

The church is not the Kingdom of God. The Kingdom of God was broken down when the servants decided they would rather make money than build the tower to see the enemy from afar off. It will not be until the servant comes to rebuild that we will have the Kingdom of God. That is D&C 101:43-63. Don't agree? Well then what else could that scripture possibly mean?

Posted: **June 15th, 2018, 8:15 pm**

One thing we need to understand is that the attitude of having plenty and so being able to give, and the action of giving will bring an abundance into the life of such a person. Whether you pay "tithing" or give away a certain amount of your income to something else, you will reap the benefits of more abundance.

I will never advocate not giving away money, because those with an attitude of scarcity and lack attract those things into their lives, member or not.

Posted: **June 15th, 2018, 10:31 pm**

abijah wrote: ↑June 15th, 2018, 5:45 pm
yes. the church is accountable to the Lord, not to its members.

The church IS the members, The church is not the Brethren or the managers. And anyone in positions of "authority" over others IS accountable. Unless we somehow believe that some are indeed more equal than others.

Posted: **June 16th, 2018, 10:06 am**

ajax wrote: ↑June 15th, 2018, 10:31 pm
abijah wrote: ↑June 15th, 2018, 5:45 pm
yes. the church is accountable to the Lord, not to its members.
The church IS the members, The church is not the Brethren or the managers. And anyone in positions of "authority" over others IS accountable. Unless we somehow believe that some are indeed more equal than others.

: animal.jpg (96.54 KiB) Viewed 1739 times

Posted: **June 16th, 2018, 10:36 am**

Patterns in scripture. There are two things that bother me about all this. When Christ began his ministry, the position of High Priest had become a position that could be purchased by "bribe." They were also using the position of High Priest for political influence. Following that patterns in scripture, it concerns me that there is this much money flowing through, and OUTSIDE of the control of the members. All we need is people getting Called into the twelve by bribe....and yes, if it happened in the New Testament, it can happen today. Imagine the political influence with that kind of money, and influence among a voting group.

This Pattern is also found in the book of mormon, infiltration of gadiantons into the governernemt....now lets not forget, the religious body in the book of mormon WAS the government They had high priests and judges, etc. I have already seen the church heavily involved in the government of Utah, and recently we have been pushing a "freedom of religion" thing, while, at the same time, making ourselves more heavily involved in the government.....this is what was going on with the religious Elders of the new testament, they got Rome, Potius pilate to do their dirty work. Now, all we need is a Caiaphas( i.e. gadianton robber) sitting amongst the 12. We are not immune to these issues, if they are not already going on.

The book of mormon shows this same pattern, as well as the new testament. I don't like the idea of BIG MONEY being invested behind the scenes....it turns into the same issues we have in the government....using money to invest in pet projects, or sway politicians to vote. its one thing for the church to have investments... and a completely separate thing to have investments, and being involved in government and politics they way we are.

Like I said, the pattern in scripture concerns me, and is a warning. The question is, what is the solution???? Would more transparency even fix the issue? Has more transparency fixed the issue in government? Are we appointing people to certain positions within the church because of their influence? or particular political experience or knowledge? Do we appoint people to positions within the church because of their personal wealth, or abilities in the private sector? Ive heard people at church make comments like, "thats why so many general authorities are independently wealthy and successful"....linking it to their spiritual abilities.......what if we are leading with that first wealth and education first, and spiritual gifts second...Just saying.

Posted: **June 16th, 2018, 11:04 am**

One more thing that bugs me.....there is debate on what a full tithe is. Net, Gross, Increase,.....and how do we define "increase"......what concerns me, is that the brethren are supposed to administer the "correct" understanding. So that we can "offer" an appropriate offering. All the handbook says is "increase" and then we let the members define it 5 different ways over the pulpit. Why not issue an official letter?????? eh????"

This concerns me for multiple reasons....we have the resources to appropriately define the tithe through scripture and what has been revealed to joseph smith. We have teams of historians and scriptorians, We also have brethren who are supposed to administer this understanding through the spirit. And yet, there are all different kinds of definitions taught over the pulpit....gross, net, increase, surplus, consecration.

Why not define it? what is the purpose in not defining it? The role of apostle is correct the "body" on these errors in understanding.

The chapters on Isaiah that refer to elijah and tithing in the book of mormon......they say we are not "bringing all the tithes into the storehouse"......so why does it say this?"

I mean, I know the answer.....im just wondering what the delay in administration is? Don't we care that the whole earth will be smitten with a curse???

Posted: **June 16th, 2018, 11:21 am**

The Airbender wrote: ↑June 15th, 2018, 8:12 pm
Col. Flagg wrote: ↑June 15th, 2018, 2:29 pm https://www.sltrib.com/opinion/commenta ... ansparency

FRIDAY, JUNE 15, 2018

Commentary: LDS Church needs more financial transparency

Would the Prince of Peace hide links to companies that invest consecrated funds for weapons of mass destruction?

By Samuel Wolfe | For The Tribune

MormonLeaks’ recent discovery of what looks like LDS Church-owned firms bearing stock-market investments valued at more than $32 billion is cause for renewed calls for financial transparency. Use of secret companies and reliance on a few lines from an accounting firm at General Conference are not good enough.

Recently in my ward’s sacrament meeting, a speaker claimed that tithing is also used to relieve global poverty and hunger. No one corrected her, even though the church’s own website doesn’t say that. Leaders’ denial of financial information fosters misperceptions, leaving members to blindly trust a huge bureaucracy to manage what they devote to God.

Members pay tithing to “store up treasure in heaven.” The church invests tens of billions of dollars of heaven’s treasure in major industries such as oil (like Exxon with a devastating environmental record), banking (firms at front of a global economic system of gross inequality), pharmaceuticals (lucrative companies that make themselves the true beneficiaries of broken health systems often denying adequate care to those who suffer most), and even major arms dealers (that sell all methods of mayhem including fighter jets, bombers and missiles).

Jesus taught that peacemakers will inherit the Earth. Would the Prince of Peace hide links to companies that invest consecrated funds for weapons of mass destruction that militaristic governments use to kill people while he simultaneously preached the end times? The church apparently does.

Some members therefore wrongly assume identity between the institutional church and almighty God. Jesus forsook the world and its riches by living by the word of God — by faith. He taught to give riches to the poor as a path to perfection, which he emulated by owning nothing.

The modern church is rich. The Book of Mormon teaches that with wealth comes a tendency toward pride and corruption. In the last days, churches “have all gone out of the way; they have become corrupted. … They rob the poor because of their fine sanctuaries; they rob the poor because of their fine clothing. … They have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ” (2 Nephi 28:13-14).

Yes, a global institution requires a large operating budget. Yes, if we give full benefit of doubt to those in power, the vast wealth of the church sustains and builds the Kingdom of God. Wealth is preserved to serve God’s purposes, yet to unfold. I hope so.

If so, why not allow light to shine on how the church spends and invests all consecrated funds and runs all its business interests? Otherwise, members who sacrifice adequate food and basic family needs to pay tithing to the church may not realize that the church hands a portion not to those in greatest need, but to mega-companies that serve mammon: a love of money, “the root of all evil” (1 Tim. 6:10).

If so, why not allow light to shine on untold millions spent for political battles, as against U.S. marriage equality that the church ultimately lost?

When will church members finally be “ready” for the celestial law of consecration when the church is so flush with tithing?

Churches and individuals alike will answer to God as stewards, including with respect to our offerings. The church owes transparent accounting to enable members’ assessment of its institutional worthiness as a true agent of God’s funds. The church should rise to its profession of being the Kingdom of God: separate and holy from the current world of inequality and plunder so at odds with the prophet Joseph’s vision of Zion.

Samuel Wolfe is a writer and attorney living in Mexico City.

Thoughts?
The church is not the Kingdom of God. The Kingdom of God was broken down when the servants decided they would rather make money than build the tower to see the enemy from afar off. It will not be until the servant comes to rebuild that we will have the Kingdom of God. That is D&C 101:43-63. Don't agree? Well then what else could that scripture possibly mean?

If you believe that the church has fallen into apostasy and is no longer operated by the influence of the Spirit of the Lord then why are you still a member ( if you even still are?) and why do you spend so much of your time talking about it? Why not move on with your life and do something more productive and enriching? The Holy Ghost is repelled by negative energy. Continued faultfinding and critisizm of the church and its leaders will not bring the spirit into your life. Move on and leave it alone. Find more positive things to engage your time and energies into.

Posted: **June 16th, 2018, 12:22 pm**

ajax wrote: ↑June 15th, 2018, 10:31 pm
abijah wrote: ↑June 15th, 2018, 5:45 pm
yes. the church is accountable to the Lord, not to its members.
The church IS the members, The church is not the Brethren or the managers. And anyone in positions of "authority" over others IS accountable. Unless we somehow believe that some are indeed more equal than others.

The Church is indeed the members, who are the Lord's. The Church does not belong to the members. It does not belong to First Presidency, or anyone but God. Church members do not have any claim of ownership on the Church. They do not receive any accounting for its affairs. The apostles "return and report" to God, not man.

Not sure how the equality thing relates here, but for the record I do not believe people are equal.

Posted: **June 16th, 2018, 12:55 pm**

abijah wrote: ↑June 16th, 2018, 12:22 pm
ajax wrote: ↑June 15th, 2018, 10:31 pm
abijah wrote: ↑June 15th, 2018, 5:45 pm
yes. the church is accountable to the Lord, not to its members.
The church IS the members, The church is not the Brethren or the managers. And anyone in positions of "authority" over others IS accountable. Unless we somehow believe that some are indeed more equal than others.
The Church is indeed the members, who are the Lord's. The Church does not belong to the members. It does not belong to First Presidency, or anyone but God. Church members do not have any claim of ownership on the Church. They do not receive any accounting for its affairs. The apostles "return and report" to God, not man.

Not sure how the equality thing relates here, but for the record I do not believe people are equal.

Do you believe yourself to be inferior to others?

Wouldn’t that be a slap in the face to god who created you in his image?

LDS Freedom Forum

Salt Lake Tribune: 'financial transparency needed from LDS church'

Salt Lake Tribune: 'financial transparency needed from LDS church'

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Re: Salt Lake Tribune: 'financial transparency needed from LDS church'

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Re: Salt Lake Tribune: 'financial transparency needed from LDS church'

Re: Salt Lake Tribune: 'financial transparency needed from LDS church'

Re: Salt Lake Tribune: 'financial transparency needed from LDS church'

Re: Salt Lake Tribune: 'financial transparency needed from LDS church'

Re: Salt Lake Tribune: 'financial transparency needed from LDS church'

What’s a few nuclear weapons among friends ...

Re: Salt Lake Tribune: 'financial transparency needed from LDS church'

Re: Salt Lake Tribune: 'financial transparency needed from LDS church'

Re: Salt Lake Tribune: 'financial transparency needed from LDS church'

Re: Salt Lake Tribune: 'financial transparency needed from LDS church'

Re: Salt Lake Tribune: 'financial transparency needed from LDS church'

Re: Salt Lake Tribune: 'financial transparency needed from LDS church'

Re: Salt Lake Tribune: 'financial transparency needed from LDS church'

Re: Salt Lake Tribune: 'financial transparency needed from LDS church'

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Re: Salt Lake Tribune: 'financial transparency needed from LDS church'

Re: Salt Lake Tribune: 'financial transparency needed from LDS church'

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Re: Salt Lake Tribune: 'financial transparency needed from LDS church'

Re: Salt Lake Tribune: 'financial transparency needed from LDS church'