LDS Freedom Forum

Ezra wrote: ↑June 16th, 2018, 12:55 pm

abijah wrote: ↑June 16th, 2018, 12:22 pm

ajax wrote: ↑June 15th, 2018, 10:31 pm

abijah wrote: ↑June 15th, 2018, 5:45 pm
yes. the church is accountable to the Lord, not to its members.

The church IS the members, The church is not the Brethren or the managers. And anyone in positions of "authority" over others IS accountable. Unless we somehow believe that some are indeed more equal than others.

The Church is indeed the members, who are the Lord's. The Church does not belong to the members. It does not belong to First Presidency, or anyone but God. Church members do not have any claim of ownership on the Church. They do not receive any accounting for its affairs. The apostles "return and report" to God, not man.

Not sure how the equality thing relates here, but for the record I do not believe people are equal.

Do you believe yourself to be inferior to others?

Wouldn’t that be a slap in the face to god who created you in his image?

I didn't say anything about myself. Frankly I don't really know my own personal value, as I am still growing, learning and becoming.

I believe in agency. Do you believe people who make good choices are equal to those who make wicked choices? Do you believe that agency and equality can somehow coexist? Do you know that this was Satan's plan?

abijah wrote: ↑June 16th, 2018, 1:06 pm

Ezra wrote: ↑June 16th, 2018, 12:55 pm

abijah wrote: ↑June 16th, 2018, 12:22 pm

ajax wrote: ↑June 15th, 2018, 10:31 pm

The church IS the members, The church is not the Brethren or the managers. And anyone in positions of "authority" over others IS accountable. Unless we somehow believe that some are indeed more equal than others.

The Church is indeed the members, who are the Lord's. The Church does not belong to the members. It does not belong to First Presidency, or anyone but God. Church members do not have any claim of ownership on the Church. They do not receive any accounting for its affairs. The apostles "return and report" to God, not man.

Not sure how the equality thing relates here, but for the record I do not believe people are equal.

Do you believe yourself to be inferior to others?

Wouldn’t that be a slap in the face to god who created you in his image?

I didn't say anything about myself. Frankly I don't really know my own personal value, as I am still growing, learning and becoming.

I believe in agency. Do you believe people who make good choices are equal to those who make wicked choices? Do you believe that agency and equality can somehow coexist? Do you know that this was Satan's plan?

The capability to be equal exists. People can make choices to be less then they are capable of being but not the other way around.

The scriptures say “be thou perfect like the father and son”

It’s possible for everyone to be equal with our father. Be “one” with him. It’s our choices and lack of knowledge that separates us from being so.

Inequality/equality is a choice. But also we are all equally capable of being aww Inspiring like God.

I posted the Napoleon horse picture above in response to what I assumed was Ajax's reference to Animal Farm (in case anyone was wondering/cared/etc). "Some animals are more equal than others" - but I think maybe it got lost in translation.

Ezra wrote: ↑June 16th, 2018, 3:58 pm

abijah wrote: ↑June 16th, 2018, 1:06 pm

Ezra wrote: ↑June 16th, 2018, 12:55 pm

abijah wrote: ↑June 16th, 2018, 12:22 pm

The Church is indeed the members, who are the Lord's. The Church does not belong to the members. It does not belong to First Presidency, or anyone but God. Church members do not have any claim of ownership on the Church. They do not receive any accounting for its affairs. The apostles "return and report" to God, not man.

Not sure how the equality thing relates here, but for the record I do not believe people are equal.

Do you believe yourself to be inferior to others?

Wouldn’t that be a slap in the face to god who created you in his image?

I didn't say anything about myself. Frankly I don't really know my own personal value, as I am still growing, learning and becoming.

I believe in agency. Do you believe people who make good choices are equal to those who make wicked choices? Do you believe that agency and equality can somehow coexist? Do you know that this was Satan's plan?

The capability to be equal exists. People can make choices to be less then they are capable of being but not the other way around.

The scriptures say “be thou perfect like the father and son”

It’s possible for everyone to be equal with our father. Be “one” with him. It’s our choices and lack of knowledge that separates us from being so.

Inequality/equality is a choice. But also we are all equally capable of being aww Inspiring like God.

Perhaps we have a misunderstanding of semantics here. It seems to me you are talking about equality of opportunity, which is quite different then what I was talking about here, which is equality of outcome.

abijah wrote: ↑June 16th, 2018, 1:06 pm

Ezra wrote: ↑June 16th, 2018, 12:55 pm

abijah wrote: ↑June 16th, 2018, 12:22 pm

ajax wrote: ↑June 15th, 2018, 10:31 pm The church IS the members, The church is not the Brethren or the managers. And anyone in positions of "authority" over others IS accountable. Unless we somehow believe that some are indeed more equal than others.

The Church is indeed the members, who are the Lord's. The Church does not belong to the members. It does not belong to First Presidency, or anyone but God. Church members do not have any claim of ownership on the Church. They do not receive any accounting for its affairs. The apostles "return and report" to God, not man.

Not sure how the equality thing relates here, but for the record I do not believe people are equal.

Do you believe yourself to be inferior to others?

Wouldn’t that be a slap in the face to god who created you in his image?

I didn't say anything about myself. Frankly I don't really know my own personal value, as I am still growing, learning and becoming.

I believe in agency. Do you believe people who make good choices are equal to those who make wicked choices? Do you believe that agency and equality can somehow coexist? Do you know that this was Satan's plan?

You need to read “Animal Farm” by Orson Wells.
It’s been on my mind lately in relation to this topic and has been referred to by others.



It explains allegorically, how gradually, people who blindly follow leaders don’t hold them accountable and they become corrupt. (Napoleon pig represents Stalin who killed many and starved millions.) It starts off with good ideas (commandments like all animals are equal, to be good to all animals etc)... but gradually the commandments are slightly rewritten, then more and more changes until it’s just “some animals are more equal than others.”

We are all of importance in the eyes of God, but that doesn’t mean we all do exactly the same things, have the same talents, same strengths & weaknesses. (1 Corinthians 12:21: ) “And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.“

It is good in families to be egalitarian- to make sure everyone gets enough. But in bigger groups, when people are too agreeable, it allows for unaccountable tyrants to rule and nobody is allowed to wuestion OR ELSE! Zion - all prioritzing God with one heart and no poor - is ideal but unrealistic. Attempt to create utopian societies have ended up with leaders who lie and deceive.

Thinker wrote: ↑June 16th, 2018, 5:53 pm

abijah wrote: ↑June 16th, 2018, 1:06 pm

Ezra wrote: ↑June 16th, 2018, 12:55 pm

abijah wrote: ↑June 16th, 2018, 12:22 pm

The Church is indeed the members, who are the Lord's. The Church does not belong to the members. It does not belong to First Presidency, or anyone but God. Church members do not have any claim of ownership on the Church. They do not receive any accounting for its affairs. The apostles "return and report" to God, not man.

Not sure how the equality thing relates here, but for the record I do not believe people are equal.

Do you believe yourself to be inferior to others?

Wouldn’t that be a slap in the face to god who created you in his image?

I didn't say anything about myself. Frankly I don't really know my own personal value, as I am still growing, learning and becoming.

I believe in agency. Do you believe people who make good choices are equal to those who make wicked choices? Do you believe that agency and equality can somehow coexist? Do you know that this was Satan's plan?

You need to read “Animal Farm” by Orson Wells.
It’s been on my mind lately in relation to this topic and has been referred to by others.



It explains allegorically, how gradually, people who blindly follow leaders don’t hold them accountable and they become corrupt. (Napoleon pig represents Stalin who killed many and starved millions.) It starts off with good ideas (commandments like all animals are equal, to be good to all animals etc)... but gradually the commandments are slightly rewritten, then more and more changes until it’s just “some animals are more equal than others.”

I've read it, but back in high school. Personally I don't believe that some "animals are more equal than others". And I think it is irrelevant to what I said, or to the Church leaders.

Thinker wrote: ↑June 16th, 2018, 5:53 pmYou need to read “Animal Farm” by Orson Wells.

George Orwell Excellent book, as you say. Parallels in many aspects of our lives.

Abijah,
It seemed that you esteemed church leaders as being less needing of accountability.
Sorry if I misunderstood.

EmmaLee wrote: ↑June 16th, 2018, 6:03 pm

Thinker wrote: ↑June 16th, 2018, 5:53 pmYou need to read “Animal Farm” by Orson Wells.

George Orwell Excellent book, as you say. Parallels in many aspects of our lives.

I agree. I think the biggest lesson is basically to not give up one’s precious free agency.
(Paraphrasing:) “The greatest battles are not fought on the battlefield, but are between principles.”

In small groups like a families, it’s important and realistic to be agreeable and ensure everyone gets enough. But when it comes to larger societies, history has repeatedly shown that when people are too agreeable, it invites Tyrants who dictate his/her own particular stardards of equality, ensuring that the Tyrant is “more equal.”

Thinker wrote: ↑June 16th, 2018, 5:53 pm

abijah wrote: ↑June 16th, 2018, 1:06 pm

Ezra wrote: ↑June 16th, 2018, 12:55 pm

abijah wrote: ↑June 16th, 2018, 12:22 pm

The Church is indeed the members, who are the Lord's. The Church does not belong to the members. It does not belong to First Presidency, or anyone but God. Church members do not have any claim of ownership on the Church. They do not receive any accounting for its affairs. The apostles "return and report" to God, not man.

Not sure how the equality thing relates here, but for the record I do not believe people are equal.i

Do you believe yourself to be inferior to others?

Wouldn’t that be a slap in the face to god who created you in his image?

I didn't say anything about myself. Frankly I don't really know my own personal value, as I am still growing, learning and becoming.

I believe in agency. Do you believe people who make good choices are equal to those who make wicked choices? Do you believe that agency and equality can somehow coexist? Do you know that this was Satan's plan?

You need to read “Animal Farm” by Orson Wells.

Great book but I think you’ll find that the author was British writer - George Orwell.

Thanks for correcting me, LukeAir & EmmaLee.
You’re right - it was George Orwell (from Britain) who wrote Animal Farm (about Soviet Union).

Its not hard to see all the fallen apostates trying to bring down their own church here.

Don't be surprised if people start leaving this forum.

You guys have no idea how big the can of worms your opening is. You are opening the door for persecution to start, and over resources that don't belong to you.

Mark wrote: ↑June 16th, 2018, 11:21 am

The Airbender wrote: ↑June 15th, 2018, 8:12 pm

Col. Flagg wrote: ↑June 15th, 2018, 2:29 pm https://www.sltrib.com/opinion/commenta ... ansparency

FRIDAY, JUNE 15, 2018

Commentary: LDS Church needs more financial transparency

Would the Prince of Peace hide links to companies that invest consecrated funds for weapons of mass destruction?

By Samuel Wolfe | For The Tribune

MormonLeaks’ recent discovery of what looks like LDS Church-owned firms bearing stock-market investments valued at more than $32 billion is cause for renewed calls for financial transparency. Use of secret companies and reliance on a few lines from an accounting firm at General Conference are not good enough.

Recently in my ward’s sacrament meeting, a speaker claimed that tithing is also used to relieve global poverty and hunger. No one corrected her, even though the church’s own website doesn’t say that. Leaders’ denial of financial information fosters misperceptions, leaving members to blindly trust a huge bureaucracy to manage what they devote to God.

Members pay tithing to “store up treasure in heaven.” The church invests tens of billions of dollars of heaven’s treasure in major industries such as oil (like Exxon with a devastating environmental record), banking (firms at front of a global economic system of gross inequality), pharmaceuticals (lucrative companies that make themselves the true beneficiaries of broken health systems often denying adequate care to those who suffer most), and even major arms dealers (that sell all methods of mayhem including fighter jets, bombers and missiles).

Jesus taught that peacemakers will inherit the Earth. Would the Prince of Peace hide links to companies that invest consecrated funds for weapons of mass destruction that militaristic governments use to kill people while he simultaneously preached the end times? The church apparently does.

Some members therefore wrongly assume identity between the institutional church and almighty God. Jesus forsook the world and its riches by living by the word of God — by faith. He taught to give riches to the poor as a path to perfection, which he emulated by owning nothing.

The modern church is rich. The Book of Mormon teaches that with wealth comes a tendency toward pride and corruption. In the last days, churches “have all gone out of the way; they have become corrupted. … They rob the poor because of their fine sanctuaries; they rob the poor because of their fine clothing. … They have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ” (2 Nephi 28:13-14).

Yes, a global institution requires a large operating budget. Yes, if we give full benefit of doubt to those in power, the vast wealth of the church sustains and builds the Kingdom of God. Wealth is preserved to serve God’s purposes, yet to unfold. I hope so.

If so, why not allow light to shine on how the church spends and invests all consecrated funds and runs all its business interests? Otherwise, members who sacrifice adequate food and basic family needs to pay tithing to the church may not realize that the church hands a portion not to those in greatest need, but to mega-companies that serve mammon: a love of money, “the root of all evil” (1 Tim. 6:10).

If so, why not allow light to shine on untold millions spent for political battles, as against U.S. marriage equality that the church ultimately lost?

When will church members finally be “ready” for the celestial law of consecration when the church is so flush with tithing?

Churches and individuals alike will answer to God as stewards, including with respect to our offerings. The church owes transparent accounting to enable members’ assessment of its institutional worthiness as a true agent of God’s funds. The church should rise to its profession of being the Kingdom of God: separate and holy from the current world of inequality and plunder so at odds with the prophet Joseph’s vision of Zion.

Samuel Wolfe is a writer and attorney living in Mexico City.

Thoughts?

The church is not the Kingdom of God. The Kingdom of God was broken down when the servants decided they would rather make money than build the tower to see the enemy from afar off. It will not be until the servant comes to rebuild that we will have the Kingdom of God. That is D&C 101:43-63. Don't agree? Well then what else could that scripture possibly mean?

If you believe that the church has fallen into apostasy and is no longer operated by the influence of the Spirit of the Lord then why are you still a member ( if you even still are?) and why do you spend so much of your time talking about it? Why not move on with your life and do something more productive and enriching? The Holy Ghost is repelled by negative energy. Continued faultfinding and critisizm of the church and its leaders will not bring the spirit into your life. Move on and leave it alone. Find more positive things to engage your time and energies into.

I did not say one of those things that you have said I believe.

How can the Church & the Brethren foster or welcome some degree of freedom of thought and expression if we/they create a culture that is utterly intolerant of such? If we insist on punishing everything but the ultra-orthodox, then we become like the Party from Orwell's 1984, we become a cult. Insisting on hyper-loyalty - loyalty that never questions or expresses any form of disagreement - as some on this forum seem to advocate: classifying everything but agreement & praise (of Church policy, leadership decisions, etc.) as apostasy and rebellion - and advocating that any guilty of such lack of groupthink and hyper-loyalty should be disciplined or kicked out (& are unworthy of membership or temple recommends, etc.) - this would make us, indeed, an intolerant and extreme religious cult. I believe God is more tolerant than this. Ironically, some of these same folks advocate for religious & other tolerant freedoms without punishment politically, they just don't believe in those things within their own religion - it's like religious Nazism - Hail to the Prophet! Follow the Prophet! Hail to the Brethren! Follow the Brethren! (and stand while you do it, out of respect for their power & authority & incomparable divine wisdom, chosen-ness, & infallibility (& humility to acknowledge their fallibility but they don't really mean it because they are nearly perfect!) Sarcasm & hyperbole obvious, I trust.

“Don’t you see that the whole aim of Newspeak is to narrow the range of thought? In the end we shall make thoughtcrime literally impossible, because there will be no words in which to express it.”

“Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.”

“To know and not to know, to be conscious of complete truthfulness while telling carefully constructed lies, to hold simultaneously two opinions which cancelled out, knowing them to be contradictory and believing in both of them, to use logic against logic, to repudiate morality while laying claim to it, to believe that democracy was impossible and that the Party was the guardian of democracy, to forget whatever it was necessary to forget, then to draw it back into memory again at the moment when it was needed, and then promptly to forget it again: and above all, to apply the same process to the process itself - that was the ultimate subtlety: consciously to induce unconsciousness, and then, once again, to become unconscious of the act of hypnosis you had just performed. Even to understand the word 'doublethink' involved the use of doublethink.”

“Orthodoxy means not thinking - not needing to think. Orthodoxy is unconsciousness.”

“Of course he chanted with the rest: it was impossible to do otherwise. To dissemble your feelings, to control your face, to do what everyone else was doing, was an instinctive reaction.”

“Then the face of Big Brother faded away again and instead the three slogans of the Party stood out in bold capitals:

WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH.”

― George Orwell, 1984

Jesef wrote: ↑June 15th, 2018, 5:34 pm

Col. Flagg wrote: ↑June 15th, 2018, 5:22 pm

Jesef wrote: ↑June 15th, 2018, 4:32 pm Col., why are there two threads on this?

There's not that I am aware of - I posted the link in the 'Church Finances' thread to show what sort of companies we are invested in, but I haven't seen a dual post for the article.

This is the other thread:
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=48623

Is it not the same topic?

Oops, must have hit the 'submit' button twice or something. My bad.

TrueIntent wrote: ↑June 16th, 2018, 11:04 am One more thing that bugs me.....there is debate on what a full tithe is. Net, Gross, Increase,.....and how do we define "increase"......what concerns me, is that the brethren are supposed to administer the "correct" understanding. So that we can "offer" an appropriate offering. All the handbook says is "increase" and then we let the members define it 5 different ways over the pulpit. Why not issue an official letter?????? eh????"

This concerns me for multiple reasons....we have the resources to appropriately define the tithe through scripture and what has been revealed to joseph smith. We have teams of historians and scriptorians, We also have brethren who are supposed to administer this understanding through the spirit. And yet, there are all different kinds of definitions taught over the pulpit....gross, net, increase, surplus, consecration.

Why not define it? what is the purpose in not defining it? The role of apostle is correct the "body" on these errors in understanding.

The chapters on Isaiah that refer to elijah and tithing in the book of mormon......they say we are not "bringing all the tithes into the storehouse"......so why does it say this?"

I mean, I know the answer.....im just wondering what the delay in administration is? Don't we care that the whole earth will be smitten with a curse???

Increase = surplus = what is left over after necessary expenses are met. Even the term 'income' in the 1820's meant 'surplus advantage'. Interest = surplus advantage. Section 119 in the D&C mentions the term 'surplus' 3 times. I think it's obvious what the Lord expects and it ain't 10% of our gross or even net paycheck.

gardener4life wrote: ↑June 17th, 2018, 12:43 am Its not hard to see all the fallen apostates trying to bring down their own church here.

Don't be surprised if people start leaving this forum.

You guys have no idea how big the can of worms your opening is. You are opening the door for persecution to start, and over resources that don't belong to you.

The spirit of fear, intimidation, and threats = not the Spirit of God

-Finrock

Col. Flagg wrote: ↑June 17th, 2018, 11:43 pm

TrueIntent wrote: ↑June 16th, 2018, 11:04 am One more thing that bugs me.....there is debate on what a full tithe is. Net, Gross, Increase,.....and how do we define "increase"......what concerns me, is that the brethren are supposed to administer the "correct" understanding. So that we can "offer" an appropriate offering. All the handbook says is "increase" and then we let the members define it 5 different ways over the pulpit. Why not issue an official letter?????? eh????"

This concerns me for multiple reasons....we have the resources to appropriately define the tithe through scripture and what has been revealed to joseph smith. We have teams of historians and scriptorians, We also have brethren who are supposed to administer this understanding through the spirit. And yet, there are all different kinds of definitions taught over the pulpit....gross, net, increase, surplus, consecration.

Why not define it? what is the purpose in not defining it? The role of apostle is correct the "body" on these errors in understanding.

The chapters on Isaiah that refer to elijah and tithing in the book of mormon......they say we are not "bringing all the tithes into the storehouse"......so why does it say this?"

I mean, I know the answer.....im just wondering what the delay in administration is? Don't we care that the whole earth will be smitten with a curse???

Increase = surplus = what is left over after necessary expenses are met. Even the term 'income' in the 1820's meant 'surplus advantage'. Interest = surplus advantage. Section 119 in the D&C mentions the term 'surplus' 3 times. I think it's obvious what the Lord expects and it ain't 10% of our gross or even net paycheck.

Yep, so my question is why don't we teach it? Do the brethren not have access to records like the rest of us. If we have the records, why don't we teach it, why isn't clarity added in the handbook? Why do we hide knowledge, and if we don't know the answer, why don't we just distribute the information and let people pray about it.

At the end of the day, I believe that tithing points to a higher spiritual law that must be offered, "its the offering of, giving all we have" which parallels patterns in the new testament, as well as law ofconsecration in D&C.....i believe D&C teaching of consecration is just a "pattern".....just like the "council of fifty" is a pattern for the establishment of Zion, even the number 50 has symbolic representations there to the pentecost, which also is a type and shadow of the body of zion. Joseph gave one revelation at that council, and it follows the pattern My point is. The windows of heaven will open to an individual who makes an appropriate offering in certain passages of Isaiah found within the book of mormon. What is the offering????.....why are we taught a billion different ways to pay the tithe by the church? And why have the windows of heaven not opened? Does no one pay an appropriate tithe? Why does the widow, who pays two farthlings pay MORE (all she had), when the savior condemns the Pharisees for paying perfect tithes and minthes ( he said they counted their tithes while ignoring weightier matters in the law)......? So here we have two people who "supposedly" under the current understanding of the church, pay perfect tithes, and yet Jesus says, one pays more, and the other pays less. Tithe is pointing to something higher.

My point is. Im confident the tithe is a spiritual offering. Im also confident that only certain individuals will be able to make it because they must be able to offer "all they have".....Notice how Mary madeline dumps an EXPENSIVE bottle of oil, the ENTIRE jar on the head of Christ. He says she did something good....but Judas, is in the corner saying she should have given it to him so he could give it to the poor (special note, judas was in charge of the purse, and HE WAS STEALING FROM IT). Judas was "exchanging" money, goods and services with the Elders, who later use him to betray Christ. This is a pattern. What Im saying, in the context of scripture, is that the tithe is pointing to a spiritual offering, that can only be made by individuals who have given all they have. It has to do with money in the sense that, (there is a quote by Joseph smith about laying down all we have, lives, family, etc that mirrors this understanding). And the "windows of heaven"....open. This is the gift Joseph received. He could see into the heavens. What did Joseph offer???? well we know at 14 years old, he had exhausted every spiritual resource he had to get an answer....He had given "all he had." and then, he went to God, and got an answer.....I had a spiritual witness as well after giving "all I had"......its the phrase in the book of mormon, " after all we can do." Why does the book of mormon not speak about "tithes"....and yet there are passages of Isaiah within the book of mormon that say "bring ye all the tithes into the store house?????? What kind of tithe is god looking for? When melkezedek brought bread and wine to abraham? He was administering a sacrament....and abraham gave a tenth of all he had????/the tenth is symbolic here. and so is what he offers.

Faith precedes the work....so an individual, believing all of this, will begin offering all they have to KNOW GOD, and typical, they do it "not knowing beforehand." Like Nephi, Like mary magdeling.... Just as Mary anoints Jesus for Burial....he's the one who explains what she had done "beforehand." Joseph smith makes a special note on this passage using the word "beforehand." Like Elijah....comes beforehand. to prepare.

The tithe is a spiritual offering. As is consecration. We should be teaching that.

TrueIntent wrote: ↑June 18th, 2018, 9:38 am One more thing that bugs me.....there is debate on what a full tithe is. Net, Gross, Increase,.....and how do we define "increase"......what concerns me, is that the brethren are supposed to administer the "correct" understanding. So that we can "offer" an appropriate offering. All the handbook says is "increase" and then we let the members define it 5 different ways over the pulpit. Why not issue an official letter?????? eh????"

I like it better that they tell us that what we pay for tithing is between us and God. They are "general" authorities. They teach general principles and it is up to the people to learn from God how to apply any true principles that they teach in their own lives. I fear if they start dictating the specifics here they will dictate the true spirit of tithing right out of the Church. I think the current policy is more conducive to freedom and liberty than if they were to specify. They may not specify in a manner that you believe it should be. Where does that leave you then?

-Finrock

Finrock wrote: ↑June 18th, 2018, 9:42 am

TrueIntent wrote: ↑June 18th, 2018, 9:38 am One more thing that bugs me.....there is debate on what a full tithe is. Net, Gross, Increase,.....and how do we define "increase"......what concerns me, is that the brethren are supposed to administer the "correct" understanding. So that we can "offer" an appropriate offering. All the handbook says is "increase" and then we let the members define it 5 different ways over the pulpit. Why not issue an official letter?????? eh????"

I like it better that they tell us that what we pay for tithing is between us and God. They are "general" authorities. They teach general principles and it is up to the people to learn from God how to apply any true principles that they teach in their own lives. I fear if they start dictating the specifics here they will dictate the true spirit of tithing right out of the Church. I think the current policy is more conducive to freedom and liberty than if they were to specify. They may not specify in a manner that you believe it should be. Where does that leave you then?

-Finrock

Finrock, read my post just above. I just posted that the tithe "specifically law of consecration" is a spiritual offering. The followers forming the new body of Christ lay "all they have" at the feet of apostles. This is often referred to as goods (money)....but its about spiritual offerings. This is why Satan in the temple ceremony says "you can buy anything in THIS world with money"....the next world, things are spiritually exchanged.

There is currency exchanged, but "currency" in this world that is exchanged will lead you to earthly messengers....you must "exchange" a different type of currency to receive knowledge in the next. It's in the form of a "tithe" or "offering".....they give you what you need spiritually, in the form of "clothing".....It's your garment. Symbolically speaking that is.

Would financial transparency from the LDS Church make Col Flagg happy? NO, it would just give him
additional reason to criticize.

TrueIntent wrote: ↑June 18th, 2018, 9:49 am

Finrock wrote: ↑June 18th, 2018, 9:42 am

TrueIntent wrote: ↑June 18th, 2018, 9:38 am One more thing that bugs me.....there is debate on what a full tithe is. Net, Gross, Increase,.....and how do we define "increase"......what concerns me, is that the brethren are supposed to administer the "correct" understanding. So that we can "offer" an appropriate offering. All the handbook says is "increase" and then we let the members define it 5 different ways over the pulpit. Why not issue an official letter?????? eh????"

I like it better that they tell us that what we pay for tithing is between us and God. They are "general" authorities. They teach general principles and it is up to the people to learn from God how to apply any true principles that they teach in their own lives. I fear if they start dictating the specifics here they will dictate the true spirit of tithing right out of the Church. I think the current policy is more conducive to freedom and liberty than if they were to specify. They may not specify in a manner that you believe it should be. Where does that leave you then?

-Finrock

Finrock, read my post just above. I just posted that the tithe "specifically law of consecration" is a spiritual offering. The followers forming the new body of Christ lay "all they have" at the feet of apostles. This is often referred to as goods (money)....but its about spiritual offerings. This is why Satan in the temple ceremony says "you can buy anything in THIS world with money"....the next world, things are spiritually exchanged.

I don't really understand what you are saying. I am responding to your initial questions in your post. I've read your entire post and I'm not sure what you are trying to teach. Not that I don't want to, mind you.

-Finrock

Finrock wrote: ↑June 18th, 2018, 10:13 am

TrueIntent wrote: ↑June 18th, 2018, 9:49 am

Finrock wrote: ↑June 18th, 2018, 9:42 am

TrueIntent wrote: ↑June 18th, 2018, 9:38 am One more thing that bugs me.....there is debate on what a full tithe is. Net, Gross, Increase,.....and how do we define "increase"......what concerns me, is that the brethren are supposed to administer the "correct" understanding. So that we can "offer" an appropriate offering. All the handbook says is "increase" and then we let the members define it 5 different ways over the pulpit. Why not issue an official letter?????? eh????"

I like it better that they tell us that what we pay for tithing is between us and God. They are "general" authorities. They teach general principles and it is up to the people to learn from God how to apply any true principles that they teach in their own lives. I fear if they start dictating the specifics here they will dictate the true spirit of tithing right out of the Church. I think the current policy is more conducive to freedom and liberty than if they were to specify. They may not specify in a manner that you believe it should be. Where does that leave you then?

-Finrock

Finrock, read my post just above. I just posted that the tithe "specifically law of consecration" is a spiritual offering. The followers forming the new body of Christ lay "all they have" at the feet of apostles. This is often referred to as goods (money)....but its about spiritual offerings. This is why Satan in the temple ceremony says "you can buy anything in THIS world with money"....the next world, things are spiritually exchanged.

I don't really understand what you are saying. I am responding to your initial questions in your post. I've read your entire post and I'm not sure what you are trying to teach. Not that I don't want to, mind you.

-Finrock

My original post said the tithe is administered many different ways.....net, gross, increase, etc. They "tithe" as taught in scripture, is just a pattern, type or shadow, "its an ordinance".....Christ fulfilled these at his coming. The true tithe has nothing to do with money. You can not "open the windows of heaven" and gain spiritual knowledge by exchanging cash "tithes" with a church. You must exchange tithes with "messengers" beyond the veil. the currency to speak with messengers beyond the veil comes through repentance (in the symbolic form of offerings made at an alter)...and then we receive witnesses. This is the tithe. Its an exchange of spiritual currency. This is the temple ceremony. The tithes paid in the old testament were a "schoolmaster" The law of moses was a "school master". Christ in the new testament is the very "image".....the book of mormon confirms this pattern. I have never missed a tithe (cash currency) as taught by the church. I paid, net, then gross, then more than gross.......and then I experienced a witness that I was saved by grace/faith, not works.....and so, having never missed a CASH tithe ever to my knowledge (unless it was in infancy)....so I never acted in hypocrisy....when i realized my "works" were not saving....I told my bishop that I didn't believe in an "ordinance" as a work...that it was spiritual.....I stopped paying "CASH" everything, as well as a whole bunch of other things, and I received spiritual witnesses (tokens and signs)......my point is...we are saved by faith. Not works....it doesn't matter what the LDS church teaches the tithe is, its not that. The jews didn;t realize what their own ordinances pointed too...just like we don't realize what our ordinances point to. The tithe is not exchanged on this earth to open the windows of heaven.....tithes and offerings are made "through" the veil.

TrueIntent wrote: ↑June 18th, 2018, 10:37 am

Finrock wrote: ↑June 18th, 2018, 10:13 am

TrueIntent wrote: ↑June 18th, 2018, 9:49 am

Finrock wrote: ↑June 18th, 2018, 9:42 am

I like it better that they tell us that what we pay for tithing is between us and God. They are "general" authorities. They teach general principles and it is up to the people to learn from God how to apply any true principles that they teach in their own lives. I fear if they start dictating the specifics here they will dictate the true spirit of tithing right out of the Church. I think the current policy is more conducive to freedom and liberty than if they were to specify. They may not specify in a manner that you believe it should be. Where does that leave you then?

-Finrock

Finrock, read my post just above. I just posted that the tithe "specifically law of consecration" is a spiritual offering. The followers forming the new body of Christ lay "all they have" at the feet of apostles. This is often referred to as goods (money)....but its about spiritual offerings. This is why Satan in the temple ceremony says "you can buy anything in THIS world with money"....the next world, things are spiritually exchanged.

I don't really understand what you are saying. I am responding to your initial questions in your post. I've read your entire post and I'm not sure what you are trying to teach. Not that I don't want to, mind you.

-Finrock

My original post said the tithe is administered many different ways.....net, gross, increase, etc. They "tithe" as taught in scripture, is just a pattern, type or shadow, "its an ordinance".....Christ fulfilled these at his coming. The true tithe has nothing to do with money. You can not "open the windows of heaven" and gain spiritual knowledge by exchanging cash "tithes" with a church. You must exchange tithes with "messengers" beyond the veil. the currency to speak with messengers beyond the veil comes through repentance (in the symbolic form of offerings made at an alter)...and then we receive witnesses. This is the tithe. Its an exchange of spiritual currency. This is the temple ceremony. The tithes paid in the old testament were a "schoolmaster" The law of moses was a "school master". Christ in the new testament is the very "image".....the book of mormon confirms this pattern. I have never missed a tithe (cash currency) as taught by the church. I paid, net, then gross, then more than gross.......and then I experienced a witness that I was saved by grace/faith, not works.....and so, having never missed a CASH tithe ever to my knowledge (unless it was in infancy)....so I never acted in hypocrisy....when i realized my "works" were not saving....I told my bishop that I didn't believe in an "ordinance" as a work...that it was spiritual.....I stopped paying "CASH" everything, as well as a whole bunch of other things, and I received spiritual witnesses (tokens and signs)......my point is...we are saved by faith. Not works....it doesn't matter what the LDS church teaches the tithe is, its not that. The jews didn;t realize what their own ordinances pointed too...just like we don't realize what our ordinances point to. The tithe is not exchanged on this earth to open the windows of heaven.....tithes and offerings are made "through" the veil.

OK. I think I understand. I think you are saying that tithing is not about giving money or anything physical but its about giving something spiritual. Is that what you are saying?

-Finrock

Finrock wrote: ↑June 18th, 2018, 10:44 am

TrueIntent wrote: ↑June 18th, 2018, 10:37 am

Finrock wrote: ↑June 18th, 2018, 10:13 am

TrueIntent wrote: ↑June 18th, 2018, 9:49 am

Finrock, read my post just above. I just posted that the tithe "specifically law of consecration" is a spiritual offering. The followers forming the new body of Christ lay "all they have" at the feet of apostles. This is often referred to as goods (money)....but its about spiritual offerings. This is why Satan in the temple ceremony says "you can buy anything in THIS world with money"....the next world, things are spiritually exchanged.

I don't really understand what you are saying. I am responding to your initial questions in your post. I've read your entire post and I'm not sure what you are trying to teach. Not that I don't want to, mind you.

-Finrock

My original post said the tithe is administered many different ways.....net, gross, increase, etc. They "tithe" as taught in scripture, is just a pattern, type or shadow, "its an ordinance".....Christ fulfilled these at his coming. The true tithe has nothing to do with money. You can not "open the windows of heaven" and gain spiritual knowledge by exchanging cash "tithes" with a church. You must exchange tithes with "messengers" beyond the veil. the currency to speak with messengers beyond the veil comes through repentance (in the symbolic form of offerings made at an alter)...and then we receive witnesses. This is the tithe. Its an exchange of spiritual currency. This is the temple ceremony. The tithes paid in the old testament were a "schoolmaster" The law of moses was a "school master". Christ in the new testament is the very "image".....the book of mormon confirms this pattern. I have never missed a tithe (cash currency) as taught by the church. I paid, net, then gross, then more than gross.......and then I experienced a witness that I was saved by grace/faith, not works.....and so, having never missed a CASH tithe ever to my knowledge (unless it was in infancy)....so I never acted in hypocrisy....when i realized my "works" were not saving....I told my bishop that I didn't believe in an "ordinance" as a work...that it was spiritual.....I stopped paying "CASH" everything, as well as a whole bunch of other things, and I received spiritual witnesses (tokens and signs)......my point is...we are saved by faith. Not works....it doesn't matter what the LDS church teaches the tithe is, its not that. The jews didn;t realize what their own ordinances pointed too...just like we don't realize what our ordinances point to. The tithe is not exchanged on this earth to open the windows of heaven.....tithes and offerings are made "through" the veil.

OK. I think I understand. I think you are saying that tithing is not about giving money or anything physical but its about giving something spiritual. Is that what you are saying?

-Finrock

Yes....the passages in Isaiah about Elijah coming, all talk about a tithe being paid. It is absolutely important to debate all the different ways the church has told us to pay tithes that may or may not contradict scripture.....it's clear, we've been taught many "different doctrines" on the subject. But then we must ask the next question.....What is the correct tithe, what did the law of moses point to when a tithe was being administered? Because the correct tithe is supposed to open the windows of heaven, and spare the whole earth from being smitten with a curse. Im speaking last days stuff....Which...if I'm correct, and my spiritual witnesses are what they are, the time is now!