LDS Freedom Forum

Thinker wrote: ↑June 10th, 2018, 5:27 pm

mgridle1 wrote: ↑June 10th, 2018, 12:12 pm

Thinker wrote: ↑June 10th, 2018, 11:33 am

Tbone wrote: ↑June 10th, 2018, 11:08 am Is there any other group of Christians that even acknowledges Heavenly Mother's existence? I am legitimately curious.

Yet, the focus is on masculinity, ignoring femininity. And some wonder why feminism has gone so extreme.

Lol, religion is the reason why that is? yeah, right.

Sorry, Mgriddle. I didn’t mean to imply that religion is the sole cause of feminism going crazy. It definitely isn’t. Still, I do see the chauvenism in the church as pushing some women away. But I think it’s getting better and it doesn’t really bother me, yet some are really bothered by it.

My main concern regarding this topic is that we are ignoring 1/2 of God.

Still haven't heard the reason why we are ignoring (for the most part) the feminine side of Godhood, heavenly mother and the eternal condition of 50% of the church membership. I have always heard people say the she is not mentioned because heavenly Father is protecting her....from what? Her children? She is a God, she doesn't need protecting. Eitherway, it would be nice to understand this more in the church.

eddie wrote: ↑June 10th, 2018, 5:10 pm

Meili wrote: ↑June 10th, 2018, 10:05 am Yeah, we have a real problem with attitudes around here. I blame you, Mark.

Not true..

True. Every person on the forum has an attitude. Whether it's a good or bad attitude, they've got one. They're everywhere. Even Mark.

Agreed, Heavenly Mother doesn't need (or probably want) protecting, and She is probably not too happy about being sidelined and basically forgotten due to the patriarchy of our society over thousands of years. This just seems like our stupid traditions again getting the better of us. Citing scripture, or the lack of examples mentioning Her in scripture, is not better - because those prophets and patriarchs were not immune to their cultures which also devalues women. Polygamy seems like the ultimate devaluation of women. 1 man = 7+ women. That's got to be the dummest equation ever written. I can't stand it (I'm male, btw), the idea of it even, and I'll bet you anything it is not the organization/system of the eternities and higher realms. I would bet my life and salvation on it. I think "the practice" could have been the mistake that almost derailed the whole thing (the Restoration movement). It was so counterproductive to actually spreading the Gospel and Doctrine of Christ. As always, just my opinion.

MMbelieve wrote: ↑June 10th, 2018, 5:50 pm

David13 wrote: ↑June 10th, 2018, 5:01 pm Men and women are not equal. They never were, and never will be equal. And that's the way God designed it.
They are complementary. You put the two of them together, if they are well matched, and the form one complete whole, each bringing their contributions to the relationship.
Just as God planned, designed and made it.
People jump on the "sexist" and "equality" bandwagon, because "everybody" is doing it, talking about it, clamoring about it, murmuring about it, and they have no idea what they are talking about.

Usually, they have been sold some socialist idiocy about "equality".

You are all equal going in, believe it or not. But the outcome will always be unequal, again as God planned it.
dc

Didn't anyone post "don't feed the troll"? Well, some of you others have got going, so ...

I believe you mean to say that men and women are not interchangeable or the same. We are however equal in value and importance.

Yeah, well said, I think that's what "God is no respecter of persons" means. We are not interchangeable. We go in equal, and will never come out equal, the end result will always depend on a thousand or million factors, effort, etc.
dc

When I see posts like this I realize that the poster is not a person who knows God, not a person who follows or teaches by the Holy Spirit, not a person who is a convert to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and its theology, not a person who ever had a real testimony, not a person I would trust with my eternal soul and not a person inspired by the correct spirit.
When people go out of their way like this to defame the innocent (and those who chime in to support them) I see their true purpose and know what their actual goal is: to disaffect whoever they can. When a person does not know that Prophets are inspired in their official acts they do not know anything true of significant consequence and can be ignored with regard to theological issues and doctrine.
This post is a meaningless exercise in misinterpretation, wrong conclusions, not comprehending eras, falsehoods and anti-Mormon ideology.

mgridle1 wrote: ↑June 10th, 2018, 11:03 am

Thinker wrote: ↑June 10th, 2018, 10:43 am

mgridle1 wrote: ↑June 10th, 2018, 10:16 am

Thinker wrote: ↑June 10th, 2018, 10:07 am
Welcome Dusty!
It is true that Mormonism does regard women as inferior.

No that is totally false, I don't know where you get your facts from. Men can't birth babies, does that make them "inferior" to women. The Church teaches separate and distinct roles for men and women and that they each NEED each other, without the other each is incomplete. By virtue of the order of God, men are to lead their families-that is just the way it is, period.

We have this weird complex that b/c someone is not the leader it means they are inferior. There can only be one prophet that leads the Church, does that mean that everyone that he leads is inferior to him. Does it mean that everyone in the ward who's calling isn't that of Bishop is inferior to the Bishop? No that is ludicrous.

For every good leader, you MUST have good followers, if you don't have good followers then the leader can't lead-period. One is not inferior to the other, it's just different roles that are played.

Heavenly Mother is ignored. Heavenly Father is looked to as if he was a single dad. The Holy Ghost is viewed as masculine when originally Heavenly Mother was represented by the dove/Holy Ghost. (Is it more logical to have a mother, father son... or 2 men and a son?) Heavenly Mother is not worshipped nor prayed to. Heavenly Father is worshipped and prayed to.

Men act as if women cannot teach gospel principles as well as men, and sometimes quote scriptures to try to justify it.

Sexism exists in the church. Denying a problem doesn’t help. But we inherited this problem - it’s in doctrine and tradition.

Of course HM isn't prayed to; nothing in the scriptures suggests we should. We should follow Christ's prayer, he didn't pray to his mother.
And no HF is not looked upon as single-seriously I have no idea what Church you are going to but it ain't LDS.

Thinker sees things through her own filter. It doesn't matter that the scriptures say Christ prays to the Father or the he does the will of the Father. It doesn't matter that Christ commands us to pray to the Father. If the scrptures don't agree with her then they're wrong and she's still right.

Meili wrote: ↑June 10th, 2018, 6:40 pm

eddie wrote: ↑June 10th, 2018, 5:10 pm

Meili wrote: ↑June 10th, 2018, 10:05 am Yeah, we have a real problem with attitudes around here. I blame you, Mark.

Not true..

True. Every person on the forum has an attitude. Whether it's a good or bad attitude, they've got one. They're everywhere. Even Mark.

Ok, I get it.

Thinker wrote: ↑June 10th, 2018, 10:43 am

mgridle1 wrote: ↑June 10th, 2018, 10:16 am

Thinker wrote: ↑June 10th, 2018, 10:07 am

Dusty52 wrote: ↑June 10th, 2018, 7:38 am Another one of the big issues is the subjugation of women in the Mormon church, not only here but into the eternities, women will never be equal, even in celestial kingdom a man may have more than 1 wife.
Polygamy has not stopped it is still practised by the Mormon church in its temples!!

Welcome Dusty!
It is true that Mormonism does regard women as inferior.

No that is totally false, I don't know where you get your facts from. Men can't birth babies, does that make them "inferior" to women. The Church teaches separate and distinct roles for men and women and that they each NEED each other, without the other each is incomplete. By virtue of the order of God, men are to lead their families-that is just the way it is, period.

We have this weird complex that b/c someone is not the leader it means they are inferior. There can only be one prophet that leads the Church, does that mean that everyone that he leads is inferior to him. Does it mean that everyone in the ward who's calling isn't that of Bishop is inferior to the Bishop? No that is ludicrous.

For every good leader, you MUST have good followers, if you don't have good followers then the leader can't lead-period. One is not inferior to the other, it's just different roles that are played.

Heavenly Mother is ignored. Heavenly Father is looked to as if he was a single dad. The Holy Ghost is viewed as masculine when originally Heavenly Mother was represented by the dove/Holy Ghost. (Is it more logical to have a mother, father son... or 2 men and a son?) Heavenly Mother is not worshipped nor prayed to. Heavenly Father is worshipped and prayed to.

Men act as if women cannot teach gospel principles as well as men, and sometimes quote scriptures to try to justify it.

Sexism exists in the church. Denying a problem doesn’t help. But we inherited this problem - it’s in doctrine and tradition.

Heavenly Mother is NOT ignored, rather, she is revered as sacred. IMHO, men use God's name in vain every single day. I think there is a commandment about that.

7 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

Why would God place his wife in front of millions of people that would desecrate her name?

Therefore, there is no problem to deny, but there is a wonderful woman to respect and honor. This certainly isn't sexist, either.

Do you realize that centuries ago, women were not allowed to speak in church?

1 Corinthians 14:34
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

Haven't we come a long way since then?

Those of us who've been here a long time have seen many Dusty's come and go. And many other flavors of people who aren't even aware that they are telegraphing tell-tales... but for us, it's getting so predictably boring.

The adversary has been hard at work to lay the groundwork of what is now considered sexist to combat the truth. There's a reason there's nothing worse to this new dogma than being a straight, white, christian male.

Women covenant to hearken to their husbands in the temple as part of the law of obedience. Is that just another relic that should be changed so we can join the rest of society? Or is that eternal truth? Do lds men lead their households and do lds women allow them to do so?

What about women veiling their faces in the Temple? Might that have something to do with Heavenly Mother being veiled from us in the scriptures? If God wanted scripture on Heavenly Mother there would be such.

The war on the patriarchy is a preemptive war against the gathering of Israel imho.

Joel wrote: ↑June 10th, 2018, 12:46 pm

I have to take issue with this set of images. They visually suggest something that is not the case. A person looking at these images without knowing the full context would draw the conclusion that these two men have two living wives as the images do nothing to suggest otherwise. This strikes me as knowingly deceptive.

It blows my mind that some of you are recommend holders.

Gage wrote: ↑June 11th, 2018, 12:55 pm It blows my mind that some of you are recommend holders.

But it doesn't blow your mind that you are a recommend holder?

-Finrock

If sexism means we don't value women as much as men, in our culture, then I have to admit that we are not quite there yet. Men and women are not on equal grounds yet. We are moving in the right direction though - we are honoring women more.

RighteousRepublic,
God doesn’t need us. We need God.
Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother don’t need to be acknowledged.
WE need to acknowledge them - completely in full, with all our might, mind and strength.
If we don’t, it’s our loss.

This topic and thread is based on the idea of no love. It has no respect, no love, no obedience towards the Gospel. It fails to take into account eternal progression. IT's based on the idea of progression through warfare instead.

Think about it.

Why do some people always attack others? The answer is that they believe in stirring up rebellion, conquest, and fighting in enmity and mental or spiritual or even sometimes physical warfare to push their agenda on others.

Now think about the love of Jesus.

Jesus was merciful to the accused adulteress. He showed her kindness and love, but in his love and generosity he still asked her to sin no more. (His love wasn't based on ignoring disobedience either, and it was fair. There was consequences to actions, both good and bad.

Jesus raised Jairus' daughter from the dead. What a supreme act of love. He also knew there was love in her parents' house. So that was why he allowed her to come back. He gave her a chance to progress through knowing the great mercy and peace of the great Redeemer. All eternal progression is based on Christ like attributes of following the Gospel.

Attacking the Gospel of Christ, and any church promoting it is self destruction.

Paul learned about the love of Jesus. When he got to know who the Savior was, he was willing to spend his whole life to correct the wrongs he had done in persecuting the disciples. He counted this sacrifice as small and nothing, even though he had bled, sweat, and was in extreme pain to promote the Gospel of Jesus Christ among Gentiles and Jews. (Ethnic diversity).

How many people out there fail to point out the number of countries we are in, the number of languages our scriptures are in, and our reverence towards approaching equality and being as fair as we can with all people is a showing that we are not racist, sexist, or harmful towards others.

We only want to share the love of Jesus.

Thinker wrote: ↑June 11th, 2018, 9:11 pm RighteousRepublic,
God doesn’t need us. We need God.
Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother don’t need to be acknowledged.
WE need to acknowledge them - completely in full, with all our might, mind and strength.
If we don’t, it’s our loss.

Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother don’t need to be acknowledged.


WE need to acknowledge them

Say what?

If women were not important, then why did God give one to Adam?

If women weren't important, then why did God tell Adam to multiply and replenish the earth?

If women weren't important, then why are there women on the earth?

Were all the spirits in heaven that fought for free agency male?

Finrock wrote: ↑June 11th, 2018, 4:05 pm

Gage wrote: ↑June 11th, 2018, 12:55 pm It blows my mind that some of you are recommend holders.

But it doesn't blow your mind that you are a recommend holder?

-Finrock

Yeah sometimes it does. I am a member of this church with perfect faith in it's doctrines, I do not foolishly claim doctrines are sexist, racist, I do not send out petitions to worship Heavenly Mother. I dont know how some do it, but I could not be a member of this Church and believe pieces of the Gospel and certain doctrines that make me feel good and claim others are false or wrong.

Gage wrote: ↑June 12th, 2018, 7:07 am

Finrock wrote: ↑June 11th, 2018, 4:05 pm

Gage wrote: ↑June 11th, 2018, 12:55 pm It blows my mind that some of you are recommend holders.

But it doesn't blow your mind that you are a recommend holder?

-Finrock

Yeah sometimes it does. I am a member of this church with perfect faith in it's doctrines, I do not foolishly claim doctrines are sexist, racist, I do not send out petitions to worship Heavenly Mother. I dont know how some do it, but I could not be a member of this Church and believe pieces of the Gospel and certain doctrines that make me feel good and claim others are false or wrong.

All of us have things we do and don't do. A temple recommend is not an absolute or even a reliable indicator of righteousness.

In any case the most mind blowing thing of all is the condescension of God.

-Finrock

righteousrepublic wrote: ↑June 12th, 2018, 12:03 am

Thinker wrote: ↑June 11th, 2018, 9:11 pm RighteousRepublic,
God doesn’t need us. We need God.
Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother don’t need to be acknowledged.
WE need to acknowledge them - completely in full, with all our might, mind and strength.
If we don’t, it’s our loss.

Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother don’t need to be acknowledged.


WE need to acknowledge them

Say what?

Yes. Do you honestly think you or I or any other human being has a thorough grasp and understanding of what and who entails the all-knowing, all-present God? Of course not! We project our images onto them. And the more we limit ourselves as to who/what God is, then the more we lose on understanding the highest GOoD fathomable.

Gage wrote: ↑June 12th, 2018, 7:07 am

Finrock wrote: ↑June 11th, 2018, 4:05 pm

Gage wrote: ↑June 11th, 2018, 12:55 pm It blows my mind that some of you are recommend holders.

But it doesn't blow your mind that you are a recommend holder?

-Finrock

Yeah sometimes it does. I am a member of this church with perfect faith in it's doctrines, I do not foolishly claim doctrines are sexist, racist, I do not send out petitions to worship Heavenly Mother. I dont know how some do it, but I could not be a member of this Church and believe pieces of the Gospel and certain doctrines that make me feel good and claim others are false or wrong.

Does it pay to keep in mind that, for whatever reason(s), the faithful will rub shoulders with what the Book of Mormon describes in detail as:

2 Nephi 28:9
9 Yea, and there shall be many which shall teach after this manner, false and vain and foolish doctrines, and shall be puffed up in their hearts, and shall seek deep to hide their counsels from the Lord; and their works shall be in the dark.

So that the very elect will have to be on their toes often?

I'm certain that the Savior will straighten it all out during the Millennium. As it is, there are too many conflicting doctrines to sort through, don't you think?

Thinker wrote: ↑June 12th, 2018, 9:35 am

righteousrepublic wrote: ↑June 12th, 2018, 12:03 am

Thinker wrote: ↑June 11th, 2018, 9:11 pm RighteousRepublic,
God doesn’t need us. We need God.
Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother don’t need to be acknowledged.
WE need to acknowledge them - completely in full, with all our might, mind and strength.
If we don’t, it’s our loss.

Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother don’t need to be acknowledged.


WE need to acknowledge them

Say what?

Yes. Do you honestly think you or I or any other human being has a thorough grasp and understanding of what and who entails the all-knowing, all-present God? Of course not! We project our images onto them. And the more we limit ourselves as to who/what God is, then the more we lose on understanding the highest GOoD fathomable.

Many Saints have a good idea of who God is merely by reading and pondering Lectures on Faith. Therein is a wonderful formula, that if followed, gives us a real good idea of who God is, not to mention the Four Standard Works.

We learn that God works by faith.
We learn that faith comes by hearing.
We learn that God is capable of wrath.

And the list goes on.

Yes, God is very fathomable if we just take the time to seek him.

Finrock wrote: ↑June 12th, 2018, 8:58 am

Gage wrote: ↑June 12th, 2018, 7:07 am

Finrock wrote: ↑June 11th, 2018, 4:05 pm

Gage wrote: ↑June 11th, 2018, 12:55 pm It blows my mind that some of you are recommend holders.

But it doesn't blow your mind that you are a recommend holder?

-Finrock

Yeah sometimes it does. I am a member of this church with perfect faith in it's doctrines, I do not foolishly claim doctrines are sexist, racist, I do not send out petitions to worship Heavenly Mother. I dont know how some do it, but I could not be a member of this Church and believe pieces of the Gospel and certain doctrines that make me feel good and claim others are false or wrong.

All of us have things we do and don't do. A temple recommend is not an absolute or even a reliable indicator of righteousness.

In any case the most mind blowing thing of all is the condescension of God.

-Finrock

I wasnt trying to fault anyone's righteousness, I am no more righteous than the next guy. Just trying to understand. If I thought there were false doctrines, just some of the Church was true, I would not waste my time because it would absolutely make no sense to me.

Gage wrote: ↑June 12th, 2018, 12:33 pm

Finrock wrote: ↑June 12th, 2018, 8:58 am

Gage wrote: ↑June 12th, 2018, 7:07 am

Finrock wrote: ↑June 11th, 2018, 4:05 pm

But it doesn't blow your mind that you are a recommend holder?

-Finrock

Yeah sometimes it does. I am a member of this church with perfect faith in it's doctrines, I do not foolishly claim doctrines are sexist, racist, I do not send out petitions to worship Heavenly Mother. I dont know how some do it, but I could not be a member of this Church and believe pieces of the Gospel and certain doctrines that make me feel good and claim others are false or wrong.

All of us have things we do and don't do. A temple recommend is not an absolute or even a reliable indicator of righteousness.

In any case the most mind blowing thing of all is the condescension of God.

-Finrock

I wasnt trying to fault anyone's righteousness, I am no more righteous than the next guy. Just trying to understand. If I thought there were false doctrines, just some of the Church was true, I would not waste my time because it would absolutely make no sense to me.

Its a paradox for sure but I think if we take time to try to relate we can see that it isn't really that different from most things in life. I once heard it said that in this life the light and the dark is an admixture or all mixed up, like the squares on a chess board. All of us are a mixture of good and evil. Because none of us are without flaw, error, or sin we can by this virtue expect that anything we work on, produce, are a part of, etc. will inherit the consequences of these flaws. We don't abandon something because it isn't flawless. Or, said another way, we embrace flawed things all of the time. We use them, we function with them, and we do lots of good with flawed things, people, ideas, institutions, and so forth.

If we accept that ALL mortals are fallible, then at some point we are going to have to deal with this fact and accept that there can be error when mortals are involved.

-Finrock