LDS Freedom Forum

Posted: **June 10th, 2018, 10:05 am**

Yeah, we have a real problem with attitudes around here. I blame you, Mark.

Posted: **June 10th, 2018, 10:07 am**

Dusty52 wrote: ↑June 10th, 2018, 7:38 am Another one of the big issues is the subjugation of women in the Mormon church, not only here but into the eternities, women will never be equal, even in celestial kingdom a man may have more than 1 wife.
Polygamy has not stopped it is still practised by the Mormon church in its temples!!

Welcome Dusty!
Well, temple work is done both ways - polygamy/polyandry. My grandma can pick from either of her abusive ex husbands who she’d like to be “sealed” to in the next life... so is the story we feel the need to tell ourselves.

It is true that Mormonism does regard women as inferior. Women do not attend priesthood meeting, but usually a man attends women’s meetings. Some might say it is because men are stronger physically. Then again, women tend to be stronger emotionally. I do believe that the priesthood should be given to men, because they need the motivation, women generally already have it and the healing touch.

Sexism in the church doesn’t bother me much except the lack of acknowledging Heavenly Mother. How would men like it if only Heavenly Mother was honored and Heavenly Father was ignored? Besides, it is ignoring a part of each of us. We each have feminine (spiritual/emotional - anima in men) aspects and masculine (physical/logical - animus in women). Anciently, before scripture corruptions, Heavenly Mother was represented by a dove/the Holy Ghost.

I do think that the ignoring of women, especially in the church, is what is leading some lds women away from the church and toward more corrupt extreme feminism.

Posted: **June 10th, 2018, 10:10 am**

Dusty52 wrote: ↑June 10th, 2018, 10:03 am You just don't get it do you
I can't be bothered to explain it to you
I'm out of here
It's been a complete utter waste of time
I came with questions and all I got was attitudes

There is no question at the start of this thread, but two exclamation points. It appears you were the one that came with attitude, rather than questions. What a shame. It could have been a good topic to discuss, if you truly had questions.

Posted: **June 10th, 2018, 10:11 am**

Dusty52 wrote: ↑June 10th, 2018, 10:03 am You just don't get it do you
I can't be bothered to explain it to you
I'm out of here
It's been a complete utter waste of time
I came with questions and all I got was attitudes

No you don't get it. When you start of with declarations like, "why is the Church sexist?", "why is the Church racist?" you are immediately starting from an adversarial position.

First off, you have to define what you mean by "sexist" and "racist". Instead for you (it seems) anything that doesn't meet the current modern day view of sexist or racist then its racist.

For example there was a stupid article in the Ensign this past month about a black lady who went to school got a degree and people (white people of course) complained that she only got in b/c of affirmative action-she made the claim that the people saying that were racist.

Well, let me see, if a white person went to college and just by the fact that their skin was white they got extra points on their application vs. the black person, don't you think this women would be up in arms about "white privilege", but no b/c she DID get an advantage from simply her skin college when anyone calls her out on it-they are "racists".

If the women who wrote the article wasn't such a racist herself, she'd say something like, Yes I did get an advantage due to affirmative action b/c it is well known that colleges provide extra points to black/minority students to "diversify" their classes and I think that is unfair-we should all be judged upon our merits vs. our skin color and I'm against affirmative action.

That would be a reasonable, logical, rational, non-racists position . . .but no that position in today's world is "racist".

Posted: **June 10th, 2018, 10:12 am**

Dusty52 wrote: ↑June 10th, 2018, 10:03 am You just don't get it do you
I can't be bothered to explain it to you
I'm out of here
It's been a complete utter waste of time
I came with questions and all I got was attitudes

"Another one bites the dust
Another one bites the dust
And another one gone, and another one gone
Another one bites the dust
Hey, I'm gonna get you, too
Another one bites the dust"

Posted: **June 10th, 2018, 10:14 am**

Meili wrote: ↑June 10th, 2018, 10:05 am Yeah, we have a real problem with attitudes around here. I blame you, Mark.

Me too! I hear coffee enemas are helpful.

Posted: **June 10th, 2018, 10:14 am**

Dusty52 wrote: ↑June 10th, 2018, 7:38 am Another one of the big issues is the subjugation of women in the Mormon church, not only here but into the eternities, women will never be equal, even in celestial kingdom a man may have more than 1 wife.
Polygamy has not stopped it is still practised by the Mormon church in its temples!!

I believe that polygamy is an abomination just like it is taught in the Book of Mormon. What happened in the early church was either a mistake or there was some sort of test or what not going on. I have no clue and I don't think anyone else does other than what they can ascertain by what others said about it.

Whether it is practiced in heaven I don't know. There is the problem that remarriage brings when a spouse dies and a person remarries. I don't know that anyone would argue against that. I don't know how that all shakes out. As for modern resealings I don't know that this constitutes polygamy as sealings are not just about marriage but linking families together and such, there's more to unpack there than just marriage.

As to your point "Another one of the big issues is the subjugation of women in the Mormon church, not only here but into the eternities, women will never be equal," I think you are completely wrong about this and you haven't made a case for it other than polygamy = inequality. Nobody is going to be forced into polygamy, I doubt that there would even be numbers to support it.

What is the doctrinal basis for this inequality when Adam says in Genesis that Eve was flesh of his flesh and bone of his bones and they constitute two parts of a whole?

Posted: **June 10th, 2018, 10:16 am**

Thinker wrote: ↑June 10th, 2018, 10:07 am
Dusty52 wrote: ↑June 10th, 2018, 7:38 am Another one of the big issues is the subjugation of women in the Mormon church, not only here but into the eternities, women will never be equal, even in celestial kingdom a man may have more than 1 wife.
Polygamy has not stopped it is still practised by the Mormon church in its temples!!
Welcome Dusty!
It is true that Mormonism does regard women as inferior.

No that is totally false, I don't know where you get your facts from. Men can't birth babies, does that make them "inferior" to women. The Church teaches separate and distinct roles for men and women and that they each NEED each other, without the other each is incomplete. By virtue of the order of God, men are to lead their families-that is just the way it is, period.

We have this weird complex that b/c someone is not the leader it means they are inferior. There can only be one prophet that leads the Church, does that mean that everyone that he leads is inferior to him. Does it mean that everyone in the ward who's calling isn't that of Bishop is inferior to the Bishop? No that is ludicrous.

For every good leader, you MUST have good followers, if you don't have good followers then the leader can't lead-period. One is not inferior to the other, it's just different roles that are played.

Posted: **June 10th, 2018, 10:22 am**

Mark wrote: ↑June 10th, 2018, 10:14 am
Meili wrote: ↑June 10th, 2018, 10:05 am Yeah, we have a real problem with attitudes around here. I blame you, Mark.

Me too! I hear coffee enemas are helpful.

Damn! I've been putting in the wrong end.

Posted: **June 10th, 2018, 10:25 am**

Mark wrote: ↑June 10th, 2018, 10:12 am
Dusty52 wrote: ↑June 10th, 2018, 10:03 am You just don't get it do you
I can't be bothered to explain it to you
I'm out of here
It's been a complete utter waste of time
I came with questions and all I got was attitudes
"Another one bites the dust
Another one bites the dust
And another one gone, and another one gone
Another one bites the dust
Hey, I'm gonna get you, too
Another one bites the dust"

So short-lived, too. What a disappointment. He has no idea what heights he could've risen to.

Posted: **June 10th, 2018, 10:43 am**

mgridle1 wrote: ↑June 10th, 2018, 10:16 am
Thinker wrote: ↑June 10th, 2018, 10:07 am
Dusty52 wrote: ↑June 10th, 2018, 7:38 am Another one of the big issues is the subjugation of women in the Mormon church, not only here but into the eternities, women will never be equal, even in celestial kingdom a man may have more than 1 wife.
Polygamy has not stopped it is still practised by the Mormon church in its temples!!
Welcome Dusty!
It is true that Mormonism does regard women as inferior.
No that is totally false, I don't know where you get your facts from. Men can't birth babies, does that make them "inferior" to women. The Church teaches separate and distinct roles for men and women and that they each NEED each other, without the other each is incomplete. By virtue of the order of God, men are to lead their families-that is just the way it is, period.

We have this weird complex that b/c someone is not the leader it means they are inferior. There can only be one prophet that leads the Church, does that mean that everyone that he leads is inferior to him. Does it mean that everyone in the ward who's calling isn't that of Bishop is inferior to the Bishop? No that is ludicrous.

For every good leader, you MUST have good followers, if you don't have good followers then the leader can't lead-period. One is not inferior to the other, it's just different roles that are played.

Heavenly Mother is ignored. Heavenly Father is looked to as if he was a single dad. The Holy Ghost is viewed as masculine when originally Heavenly Mother was represented by the dove/Holy Ghost. (Is it more logical to have a mother, father son... or 2 men and a son?) Heavenly Mother is not worshipped nor prayed to. Heavenly Father is worshipped and prayed to.

Men act as if women cannot teach gospel principles as well as men, and sometimes quote scriptures to try to justify it.

Sexism exists in the church. Denying a problem doesn’t help. But we inherited this problem - it’s in doctrine and tradition.

Posted: **June 10th, 2018, 11:03 am**

Thinker wrote: ↑June 10th, 2018, 10:43 am
mgridle1 wrote: ↑June 10th, 2018, 10:16 am
Thinker wrote: ↑June 10th, 2018, 10:07 am
Dusty52 wrote: ↑June 10th, 2018, 7:38 am Another one of the big issues is the subjugation of women in the Mormon church, not only here but into the eternities, women will never be equal, even in celestial kingdom a man may have more than 1 wife.
Polygamy has not stopped it is still practised by the Mormon church in its temples!!
Welcome Dusty!
It is true that Mormonism does regard women as inferior.
No that is totally false, I don't know where you get your facts from. Men can't birth babies, does that make them "inferior" to women. The Church teaches separate and distinct roles for men and women and that they each NEED each other, without the other each is incomplete. By virtue of the order of God, men are to lead their families-that is just the way it is, period.

We have this weird complex that b/c someone is not the leader it means they are inferior. There can only be one prophet that leads the Church, does that mean that everyone that he leads is inferior to him. Does it mean that everyone in the ward who's calling isn't that of Bishop is inferior to the Bishop? No that is ludicrous.

For every good leader, you MUST have good followers, if you don't have good followers then the leader can't lead-period. One is not inferior to the other, it's just different roles that are played.
Heavenly Mother is ignored. Heavenly Father is looked to as if he was a single dad. The Holy Ghost is viewed as masculine when originally Heavenly Mother was represented by the dove/Holy Ghost. (Is it more logical to have a mother, father son... or 2 men and a son?) Heavenly Mother is not worshipped nor prayed to. Heavenly Father is worshipped and prayed to.

Men act as if women cannot teach gospel principles as well as men, and sometimes quote scriptures to try to justify it.

Sexism exists in the church. Denying a problem doesn’t help. But we inherited this problem - it’s in doctrine and tradition.

Of course HM isn't prayed to; nothing in the scriptures suggests we should. We should follow Christ's prayer, he didn't pray to his mother.
And no HF is not looked upon as single-seriously I have no idea what Church you are going to but it ain't LDS.

Posted: **June 10th, 2018, 11:08 am**

Is there any other group of Christians that even acknowledges Heavenly Mother's existence? I am legitimately curious.

Posted: **June 10th, 2018, 11:19 am**

Tbone wrote: ↑June 10th, 2018, 11:08 am Is there any other group of Christians that even acknowledges Heavenly Mother's existence? I am legitimately curious.

A resounding no; for all the feminazis in the Church, they can't even recognize that no other religion even acknowledges HM.

Posted: **June 10th, 2018, 11:33 am**

Tbone wrote: ↑June 10th, 2018, 11:08 am Is there any other group of Christians that even acknowledges Heavenly Mother's existence? I am legitimately curious.

Groups who honor Heavenly Mother:

Unification Church
World Mission Society Church of God
*Goddess Christians
*The DaVinci Code Forum
*Christian Wicca
*(Not christian but:) African Hebrew Israelite Movement
*Others who honor “the divine feminine” like the Catholic church worshipping Mary.
*Many other religions honor feminine as well as masculine... especially Taoism with the yin/yang symbol suggesting they both together make up a whole.

If you want to look to the Bible, despite what it’s been through, there is still left truth that women were created in the image of Heavenly Mother and men in the image of Heavenly Father...
“So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.”- Genesis 1:27

In word we (lds) are awesome! We get a lot right! But in interpretation and practice, not so much. Ideally, we would consider feminine deity as much as masculine deity, but unfortunately it’s lopsided. Still, some have tried to achieve a more truthful balance of approaching God as our heavenly parents. Mothers are as important as fathers.

“The heavenly Mother doctrine is taught by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church),[1] the Restoration Church of Jesus Christ,[2][3] and branches of Mormon fundamentalism, such as the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints...

In the LDS Church, the doctrine of "heavenly Mother" or "heavenly parents" is not frequently discussed; however, the doctrine can be found in some church hymns and has been briefly discussed in church teaching manuals and sermons...

church leader Rudger Clawson disagreed, arguing that "it doesn't take away from our worship of the Eternal Father, to adore our Eternal Mother ... [W]e honor woman when we acknowledge Godhood in her eternal prototype."

Some church leaders have interpreted the term "God" to represent the divinely exalted couple with both a masculine and feminine half. Erastus Snow, an early Mormon apostle, wrote "'do you mean we should understand that Deity consists of a man and woman?' Most certainly I do. If I believe anything that God has ever said about himself ... I must believe that deity consists of a man and woman." This notion was reaffirmed by later church leaders Hugh B. Brown, James E. Talmage, Melvin J. Ballard, and Bruce R. McConkie...

Early 20th-century church leader B. H. Roberts pointed out that the heavenly Mother doctrine presents a "conception of the nobility of women and of motherhood and of wife-hood—placing her side by side with the Divine Father."[17]:77 Apostle John A. Widtsoe, a contemporary of Roberts, wrote that the afterlife "is given radiant warmth by the thought that ... [we have] a mother who possesses the attributes of Godhood."[17]:78 In 1894, Juvenile Instructor, an official publication of the LDS Church, published a hymn entitled "Our Mother in Heaven".[26] A 1925 First Presidency statement included the lines "All men and women are in the similitude of the universal Father and Mother .... [M]an, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents .... [and] is capable, by experience through ages and aeons [sic], of evolving into a God."[27][28][29]

There has also been some more recent discussion of heavenly Mother by LDS Church leaders. In a speech given at BYU in 2010, Glenn L. Pace, a member of the LDS Church's First Quorum of the Seventy, said, "Sisters, I testify that when you stand in front of your heavenly parents in those royal courts on high and look into Her eyes and behold Her countenance, any question you ever had about the role of women in the kingdom will evaporate into the rich celestial air, because at that moment you will see standing directly in front of you, your divine nature and destiny."[30]

Vision with Heavenly Father, Heavenly Mother and Son:
“One day the Prophet Joseph asked him [Coltrin] and Sidney Rigdon to accompany him into the woods to pray. When they had reached a secluded spot Joseph laid down on his back and stretched out his arms. He told the brethren to lie one on each arm, and then shut their eyes. After they had prayed he told them to open their eyes. They did so and saw a brilliant light surrounding a pedestal which seemed to rest on the earth. They closed their eyes and again prayed. They then saw, on opening them, the Father seated upon a throne; they prayed again and on looking saw the Mother also; after praying and looking the fourth time they saw the Savior added to the group.”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavenl ... Mormonism)

Yet, the focus is on masculinity, ignoring femininity. And some wonder why feminism has gone so extreme.

Posted: **June 10th, 2018, 12:12 pm**

Thinker wrote: ↑June 10th, 2018, 11:33 am
Tbone wrote: ↑June 10th, 2018, 11:08 am Is there any other group of Christians that even acknowledges Heavenly Mother's existence? I am legitimately curious.
Yet, the focus is on masculinity, ignoring femininity. And some wonder why feminism has gone so extreme.

Lol, religion is the reason why that is? yeah, right.

Posted: **June 10th, 2018, 12:16 pm**

Mark wrote: ↑June 10th, 2018, 10:14 am
Meili wrote: ↑June 10th, 2018, 10:05 am Yeah, we have a real problem with attitudes around here. I blame you, Mark.

Me too! I hear coffee enemas are helpful.

Brigham had his own special enema

Joel wrote: ↑December 23rd, 2014, 12:24 am More wisdom from Brigham?

Brigham Young's office journal records: "Howard Egan called upon me in relation to Bro[ther] H. S. Sherman discontinuing his services on the western line with him. I told him Bro[ther] Shermans state of health required him to discontinue traveling that he might bestow more attention upon himself and use remedies to entirely cure himself of the piles and tumor he was afflicted with. Howard then left. I told Bro[ther] S. & S. Sherman yesterday that I had been obliged to use a syringe since my sickness in Nauvoo, and now I could not live months without using it; I believe the the [sic] frequent use of it has considerably benefitted my health as I am much better now than I have been for years. I enjoy my food much better that [sic] I used years ago. The use of the syringe strengthens my bowels I am persuaded that in nine cases out of ten the bowels become deranged before the stomach does, and the bowels being deranged soon affect the stomach. I charge the syringe frequently with composition sometimes I mix consecrated oil with it. I have sent for some good olive oil if it can be procured; for the oil the merchants import here is so unpleasant I cannot take it. Another good remedy for the piles is the grease that is attacked to the pizzle [sic] of pig that fat lying near the anus of the animal, this fat is particularly efficacious in the cure of the piles. I gave this remedy with the injections; or rather told my clerk David A. Calder to use these remedies, and he has not been sick since (48) and he was frequently away a few days sick with biliousness and piles. I have my own composition powder prepared it consist of Kyan [sic] pepper, ground ginger, cloves, barberry &c. I will here remark for the benefit of those who may read, that I feel it the duty of all men to take care of their health and use such medicinal remedies as are known to be good, I do not ask the Lord to do for me what I would not do for myself"

http://today-in-church-history.blogspot ... ar-02.html

Still If I did anything when I get older I think I rather eat a robot

Posted: **June 10th, 2018, 12:46 pm**

Dusty52 wrote: ↑June 10th, 2018, 7:38 am Another one of the big issues is the subjugation of women in the Mormon church, not only here but into the eternities, women will never be equal, even in celestial kingdom a man may have more than 1 wife.
Polygamy has not stopped it is still practised by the Mormon church in its temples!!

Joel wrote: ↑June 10th, 2018, 7:09 am
Dusty52 wrote: but how do we know from what they say that it is from God or not?
Whatever the position, past or current on any given issue, if the 1st presidency and the Q of the 12 apostles are united it is the voice of God.

Posted: **June 10th, 2018, 1:21 pm**

Tbone wrote: ↑June 10th, 2018, 11:08 am Is there any other group of Christians that even acknowledges Heavenly Mother's existence? I am legitimately curious.

There is a church headquartered in South Korea that actually has a Heavenly Mother incarnate. They are more active in their proselytizing than the LDS by far in that country. They put the JW's to shame in their pushiness. Apparently Heavenly Mother is on earth as an extremely elderly Korean woman who is waiting for the bridegroom to come.

Posted: **June 10th, 2018, 4:43 pm**

also seems snufferians have sayings about heavely mother.... theological discourse on the nature of god.

https://latterdaycommentary.com/2018/05 ... -the-lord/

Posted: **June 10th, 2018, 5:01 pm**

Men and women are not equal. They never were, and never will be equal. And that's the way God designed it.
They are complementary. You put the two of them together, if they are well matched, and the form one complete whole, each bringing their contributions to the relationship.
Just as God planned, designed and made it.
People jump on the "sexist" and "equality" bandwagon, because "everybody" is doing it, talking about it, clamoring about it, murmuring about it, and they have no idea what they are talking about.

Usually, they have been sold some socialist idiocy about "equality".

You are all equal going in, believe it or not. But the outcome will always be unequal, again as God planned it.
dc

Didn't anyone post "don't feed the troll"? Well, some of you others have got going, so ...

Posted: **June 10th, 2018, 5:10 pm**

Meili wrote: ↑June 10th, 2018, 10:05 am Yeah, we have a real problem with attitudes around here. I blame you, Mark.

Not true..

Posted: **June 10th, 2018, 5:27 pm**

mgridle1 wrote: ↑June 10th, 2018, 12:12 pm
Thinker wrote: ↑June 10th, 2018, 11:33 am
Tbone wrote: ↑June 10th, 2018, 11:08 am Is there any other group of Christians that even acknowledges Heavenly Mother's existence? I am legitimately curious.
Yet, the focus is on masculinity, ignoring femininity. And some wonder why feminism has gone so extreme.
Lol, religion is the reason why that is? yeah, right.

Sorry, Mgriddle. I didn’t mean to imply that religion is the sole cause of feminism going crazy. It definitely isn’t. Still, I do see the chauvenism in the church as pushing some women away. But I think it’s getting better and it doesn’t really bother me, yet some are really bothered by it.

My main concern regarding this topic is that we are ignoring 1/2 of God.

Posted: **June 10th, 2018, 5:48 pm**

simpleton wrote: ↑June 10th, 2018, 8:21 am
Dusty52 wrote: ↑June 10th, 2018, 7:38 am Another one of the big issues is the subjugation of women in the Mormon church, not only here but into the eternities, women will never be equal, even in celestial kingdom a man may have more than 1 wife.
Polygamy has not stopped it is still practised by the Mormon church in its temples!!
So it is just the Mormon church that has the big issue with the "Subjugation" of women? Ridiculous IMO...
So Dusty, what say ye about what God said to the very first woman, and that continues to this day.

Genesis 3:
16Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

These were curses, punishments or a fallen condition. They are not celestial.

Men rule the world and women desire to have that position. It's a condition of the fall limited to earthly or fallen conditions.

Posted: **June 10th, 2018, 5:50 pm**

David13 wrote: ↑June 10th, 2018, 5:01 pm Men and women are not equal. They never were, and never will be equal. And that's the way God designed it.
They are complementary. You put the two of them together, if they are well matched, and the form one complete whole, each bringing their contributions to the relationship.
Just as God planned, designed and made it.
People jump on the "sexist" and "equality" bandwagon, because "everybody" is doing it, talking about it, clamoring about it, murmuring about it, and they have no idea what they are talking about.

Usually, they have been sold some socialist idiocy about "equality".

You are all equal going in, believe it or not. But the outcome will always be unequal, again as God planned it.
dc

Didn't anyone post "don't feed the troll"? Well, some of you others have got going, so ...

I believe you mean to say that men and women are not interchangeable or the same. We are however equal in value and importance.

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