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Elder Holland Testifies of the prophetic mantle of President Nelson

Posted: June 9th, 2018, 10:36 pm
by drtanner
While speaking to graduating students at BYU Elder Holland said the following:
A funny thing happened to me on the way to these services. Just to make sure I wasn’t late, I started out for Provo more than two weeks ago. And boy, is it a good thing I did. I am not sure where I made the wrong turn, but the next thing I knew I was seeing road signs that said Jerusalem, Nairobi, Bangalore, and Hong Kong! My goodness, it has taken me all I could do to finally get here.

And the unusual thing about this is that it was President Russell M. Nelson who was giving me advice on the route I should take. I wonder if that is the way he always gets people from Salt Lake to Provo!

Sister Holland and I come to you newly returned from one of the most remarkable experiences of our lives. Can you imagine circling the globe on a worldwide ministering assignment with the Lord’s prophet and his wonderful wife? It was an experience of a lifetime. In those oft-quoted words of Oliver Cowdery, these past two weeks with President and Sister Nelson were truly “days never to be forgotten.”1

This is not the time nor the place to regale you with stories of our experience, but I bear witness to you that President Russell M. Nelson is a prophet ordained of God from before the foundation of the world and that he is exercising that calling in a most magnificent way in public and in private.

Re: Elder Holland Testifies of the prophetic mantle of President Nelson

Posted: June 9th, 2018, 10:53 pm
by larsenb
Got a link to the full speach?

Re: Elder Holland Testifies of the prophetic mantle of President Nelson

Posted: June 10th, 2018, 7:33 am
by drtanner
larsenb wrote: June 9th, 2018, 10:53 pm Got a link to the full speach?
https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/jeffrey- ... l-shadows/

Re: Elder Holland Testifies of the prophetic mantle of President Nelson

Posted: June 10th, 2018, 7:47 pm
by Jesef
I think President Nelson senses his short time left on earth - he turns 94 this year. He may only have a few years ministry. Also, I think he's intelligent enough to know that lack of change and evolution in our Church has created stagnation and apathy - so I hope he continues to shake things up. We need vibrancy, we need dynamic growth. We need open minds and hearts to make progress, to learn and have new things revealed. We need more light and love and Spirit! Bring it on, please! I am so sick of the same old habits and checklists and cultural patterns. I hope they completely dispel brethren-worship/veneration, too. Stop pretending to be holier than everyone else! That might be a stretch too much to hope for. And let's throw the cloak off so much of our crappy history, too. I say disavow polygamy completely and so many other mistakes & harmful & weird things in our history. Maybe Joseph made some huge errors, too, and they resulted in his death - sure seems that way: secret polygamy, propositioning other men's wives, destroying the printing press, etc. We can just acknowledge some things went off the rails. Transparency, finances - then we won't need Mormon WikiLeaks.

Re: Elder Holland Testifies of the prophetic mantle of President Nelson

Posted: June 10th, 2018, 8:13 pm
by Jonesy
Jesef wrote: June 10th, 2018, 7:47 pm I think President Nelson senses his short time left on earth - he turns 94 this year. He may only have a few years ministry. Also, I think he's intelligent enough to know that lack of change and evolution in our Church has created stagnation and apathy - so I hope he continues to shake things up. We need vibrancy, we need dynamic growth. We need open minds and hearts to make progress, to learn and have new things revealed. We need more light and love and Spirit! Bring it on, please! I am so sick of the same old habits and checklists and cultural patterns. I hope they completely dispel brethren-worship/veneration, too. Stop pretending to be holier than everyone else! That might be a stretch too much to hope for. And let's throw the cloak off so much of our crappy history, too. I say disavow polygamy completely and so many other mistakes & harmful & weird things in our history. Maybe Joseph made some huge errors, too, and they resulted in his death - sure seems that way: secret polygamy, propositioning other men's wives, destroying the printing press, etc. We can just acknowledge some things went off the rails. Transparency, finances - then we won't need Mormon WikiLeaks.
Jesef, what’s going on? Please don’t let the sour/bitter bug get you. I totally hear you, I do. I think it’s more wise to hope for change in the self than the Church at this point. Just let it run it’s course and be at peace. Project what you desire in yourself and be the change. The Elias to come will suffice enough and more.

Re: Elder Holland Testifies of the prophetic mantle of President Nelson

Posted: June 10th, 2018, 11:46 pm
by drtanner
Jesef wrote: June 10th, 2018, 7:47 pm I think President Nelson senses his short time left on earth - he turns 94 this year. He may only have a few years ministry. Also, I think he's intelligent enough to know that lack of change and evolution in our Church has created stagnation and apathy - so I hope he continues to shake things up. We need vibrancy, we need dynamic growth. We need open minds and hearts to make progress, to learn and have new things revealed. We need more light and love and Spirit! Bring it on, please! I am so sick of the same old habits and checklists and cultural patterns. I hope they completely dispel brethren-worship/veneration, too. Stop pretending to be holier than everyone else! That might be a stretch too much to hope for. And let's throw the cloak off so much of our crappy history, too. I say disavow polygamy completely and so many other mistakes & harmful & weird things in our history. Maybe Joseph made some huge errors, too, and they resulted in his death - sure seems that way: secret polygamy, propositioning other men's wives, destroying the printing press, etc. We can just acknowledge some things went off the rails. Transparency, finances - then we won't need Mormon WikiLeaks.
Or they can continue to focus on the Doctrine of Christ and true conversion while doing their best to answer honest (key word honest) questions. A true witness of the prophetic call of President Nelson may not eliminate questions, but certainly will eliminate most concerns.

Re: Elder Holland Testifies of the prophetic mantle of President Nelson

Posted: June 11th, 2018, 7:25 pm
by Onsdag
drtanner wrote: June 10th, 2018, 7:33 am
larsenb wrote: June 9th, 2018, 10:53 pm Got a link to the full speach?
https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/jeffrey- ... l-shadows/
Excellent talk. It's very nearly identical to the commencement speech he gave at my graduation from Snow College in 2010. And most interestingly enough, about a month or so ago that speech was brought to my mind because of something a dear friend posted on facebook about never giving up in one's pursuit of success. I thought of Elder Holland's warnings and caution about "success" and felt to share with my friend his prophetic counsel. I searched for and found my audio recording of Elder Holland's speech and laboriously transcribed it to share with my friend. That was about a month ago and now I happen upon this thread with a very similar speech he gave at BYU. I really needed this, so thank you for sharing. "Success" in the great and spacious building is, ultimately, a failure of grand and eternal proportions when we discover that the fruit of the tree of life is what we should have been striving for all along.

Anyways, here's the transcript (being self-transcribed all errors are mine) from Elder Holland's commencement speech at my graduation from Snow College in 2010:
I want to speak briefly to the graduates. I've gone back to draw from your undergraduate curriculum and mine. These are some old, old voices. I'm getting older. Somebody said "young men speak of the future because they have no past, old men speak of the past because they have no future." I have so perilously little future that I've gone back to the past. These are old voices. I've gone back, in fact, to my own class coursework and some papers that I wrote. They're actually a little damp, things were moist on the ark - we do better with preservation of records now - to speak nothing of that "turkey residue" that you spoke of earlier. But I think I can dry them off and I think I can smooth these out enough to teach a vignette or two from history, and for some of the reasons that we go to college and that seek the wisdom of those who've gone before us.

The first piece of advice comes from those wrenching moments of the English reformation - that pivotal Tudor period when the whole world was changed because Henry VIII wanted a divorce. My, upon what small hinges the doors of history swing! Truly do we sing "God moves in mysterious way His wonders to perform." This world was reshaped by Henry's determination to be rid of Catherine of Aragon and to have the hand of Anne Boleyn. To understand this drama we have to know the second most powerful man in the British realm at the time - the masterful Thomas Wolsey. Son of an educated Suffolk butcher, Wolsey's driving ambition and immense talent brought him through rapid rise to Oxford University and into the [Catholic] church where he quickly became chaplain to Henry VII, Henry's father.

When Henry VIII ascended to the throne Wolsey's fortunes prospered even more dramatically. In addition to high church positions, including archbishop of York and finally cardinal, he came to the most influential member of the king's privy council. Quickly enough he was the controlling figure in all matters of state and every political move made by his monarch. He loved display and wealth, he lived in royal splendor, he reveled in power. Then Anne Boleyn came into his life. Young Henry was determined to move heaven, earth, his present wife, and the Roman Catholic Church to have her. But the obstacles were nearly insurmountable. He told Wolsey to surmount them. Wolsey did not, and the failure proved to be fatal.

In spite of such a remarkable and virtually unprecedented rise to political power, Wolsey's fall was sudden and total. It was very complete. Unable to get Rome's approval for a divorce, Wolsey was stripped by king Henry of every office and every property, was accused of treason and ordered to appear to the tower in London. In great distress he set out for the capital to be tried and surely executed. On the way, fortunately, he fell ill and died.

With the help of young Will Shakespeare - who sends his congratulations to you this morning and asks to be remembered as I left the ark - I invite you to hear cardinal Wolsey's farewell lament. This is from Shakespeare:

"Farewell! a long farewell, to all my greatness! This is the state of man: to-day he puts forth the tender leaves of hope; to-morrow blossoms, and bears his blushing honours thick upon him; the third day comes a frost, a killing frost, and nips his root, and then he falls, as I do. I have ventured, like wanton boys that swim on bladders, these many summers in a sea of glory, but far beyond my depth: my high-blown pride at length broke under me, and now has left me - left me weary, and old with service, to the mercy of a rude stream, that must for ever hide me. Vain pomp and glory of this world, I hate you! O, how wretched is that poor man that hangs on princes' favours! When he falls, he falls like Lucifer, never to hope again."

At that point in the play his protégé Cromwell enters the room. They speak quietly with tears and Wolsey commands, again in Shakespeare's language:

"Cromwell, I charge thee, fling away ambition: by that sin fell the angels; how can man, then, the image of his Maker, hope to win by it? Love thyself last: cherish those hearts that hate thee: corruption wins not more than honesty. O Cromwell, Cromwell! Had I but served my God with half the zeal I served my king, I would not in mine age be left naked to my enemies! Farewell, the hopes of court! My hopes now in Heaven dwell!"

Students, on this commencement day, a once powerful British friend issues a caution to you against that maneuvering of the ladder of success, which only too late lets you discover it was leaning against the wrong wall. Blushing honors as the world bestows them - they're inexorably nipped by a killing frost. High blown pride - it'll always break under us, like those children swimming in a "sea of glory," he said, we'll one day find ourselves beyond our depth. Weary, old with service, life closing in disappointment and disrepute Wolsey "falls like Lucifer, never to hope again." What a tragic end to such a gifted beginning! What a pathetic farewell to a life that held such promise - as yours does!

And I repeat, where did it go wrong? It went wrong when ambition became more important than conviction, when corruption transcended fidelity, when power and wealth created a thirst that honest living could not satisfy. This entire planet has been going through the most severe economic recession since the legendary tragedy of the Great Depression of 80 years ago - and we're still not out of the woods of this economic nightmare as we meet here this morning! And what brought it on? What brought it on was the 21st century equivalent of Thomas Wolsey - that's what brought it on!

May I repeat, could there be sadder words than those from the lips of a Snow College graduate fifty, or sixty, or seventy years from today, " Vain pomp and glory of this world, I hate you! Had I but served my God with half the zeal I served my king" or my company, or my country club, "He would not in mine age have left naked to mine enemies!" Thomas Wolsey raises his voice from the grave to whisper to you 478 years later, that painful moment in his life, "don't make the mistake I made" he says.

No, for Snow [College] graduates it must be the permanent things, the reliable things forever: truth and industry and love, family and friends, humility and sacrifice and faith. As you stand on the threshold of your bright and beautiful future may heaven strip from you this very hour - this very instant - any budding taste you may have for acquiring unseemly wealth, or authoritarian power, or worldly acclaim for that acclaim's sake. I pray you'll always have money sufficient for your needs. And I pray you'll always exert a righteous influence wherever life's journey takes you. But I ask you not to be lured by the siren's song of avarice and greed, or the quest for unrighteous dominion over your fellow men and women. Student life and student wages have already taught you that to be happy you do not need the most expensive car, the most fashionable clothing, nor the most elegant furnishings in your home. Furthermore, in the years ahead, neither your self-esteem nor your standing before God will hinge on you being at the top of a corporate pyramid. Don't advance yourself ever through compromise! Don't feather your nest with what you've plucked dishonorably from someone else! Remember, that at the end, surely God will be looking only for clean hands, not full ones.

The second piece of counsel is briefer and related, it comes from a younger write, Rudyard Kipling, who wrote only 146 years ago - just a kid - Nobel prize winner, unofficial spokesman for the British empire, he of "Jungle Book" and "Gunga Din" fame. Almost everyone quotes Kipling's recessional, but almost no one remembers when it was written or why. It was written for queen Victoria's diamond jubilee in 1897. And in spite of such an unprecedented era in English history, this piece was at least as much a warning as it was a celebration. The British empire was at the zenith of its imperial grandeur, but Kipling soberly asked Victoria's subjects to consider the love of God and the sacrifice of thousands of people which had made that present moment possible, and with what arrogance and ingratitude it might forever be thrown away. In a double entendre that proved to be prophetic Kipling asks if the British empire would see a recessional of quite a different kind:

The tumult and the shouting dies;
The Captains and the Kings depart:
Still stands Thine ancient sacrifice,
An humble and a contrite heart.
Lord God of Hosts, be with us yet,
Lest we forget—lest we forget!

Part of what needs to be said on any graduation day where we celebrate so much of what you newly gained and what excitingly lies ahead, is to remind one another never to forget what has been so generously given to us by those in the past. Today's the day of delightful tumult and joyful shouting - a day of marvelous celebration. You graduates are the featured stars - center stage - and rightly so! This should be one of the greatest days of your life - I pray it will be! But take time, today - this very day - to remember again what so many have sacrificed and done for you in order that you could be here today. Parents, family, faculty, friends, staff, administrators, some of you have spouses, some of you have infant children, thousands of people - including the faithful taxpayers of this state, and its leaders - have made it possible for you to rejoice as young kings and queens, captains today. The true meaning of such blessings can be lost all to easily if we fail to offer that ancient and everlasting sacrifice, "an humble and a contrite heart." Long after this service is over, long after we're far from Ephraim and these splendid days on this beautiful campus, long after the musical notes of our own recessional from this service have fallen into the silent past, still then, forever, we must pray "Lord God of Hosts, be with us yet,
Lest we forget—lest we forget!" Promise to remember Snow College, its wonderful traditions, and the people who made all of this possible for you today. And when you do remember, be grateful.

Lastly, I bring you counsel from a gifted son of an English ironmonger - a brilliant young man who studied law, travelled the world, but came home to find his true calling in poetry and in the pulpit. John Donne, the greatest of all the metaphysical poets, reached the pinnacle of ministerial success becoming the dean of St. Paul's cathedral, and preaching regularly before Charles I and the royal family. The best of his sermons are unequaled in the history of the English church. Almost totally neglected for 300 years before being "discovered" (in quotes), largely in the 20th century, John Dunn returns from the grave today, with his friends, to give Snow College graduates a final word of encouragement from him as you step out onto the path leading firmly into your future. Life can, on occasion, be difficult. Kids, you already know that - you've discovered it and you'll have opportunity to discover it in the years that lie ahead. You may suffer some discouragement there and some disappointment, and you may feel on some days genuine despair. You may even make a mistake or two, and worry that the chance to succeed, or be safe, or be happy in life, has eluded you forever because of those mistakes. Above all else I ask you to remember this: such troubled times pass, or at least they can if you want them to. They are never permanent. Darkness always yields to light. The sun always rises. And so do our hopes, and so do our dreams. During these inevitable days of discouragement, and some recurring times of trouble in our lives, we must never forget this counsel from our English preacher friend. He wrote:

“We ask our daily bread, and God never says, ‘You should have come yesterday.’ He never says, 'I've run out, you'll have to try again tomorrow.' No, he says, ‘Today if you will hear my voice, today I will hear yours.’ God brought light out of darkness, not out of a lesser light; He can bring summer out of your winter, though you had no hope of spring; though in the ways of fortune, or misunderstanding, or conscience, thou hast been benighted till now, wintered, frozen, clouded and eclipsed, damp and benumbed, smothered and stupified till now, nevertheless God comes to thee, not as in the dawning of the day, not as in the bud of the spring, but as the sun at full noon, banishing all shadows, as the sheaves in harvest, to fill all penuries, all occasions invite His mercies, and all times are His seasons. We cannot have the fruits of the earth but in their seasons; but God hath made no decrees to distinguish the season of His mercy; in Paradise, the fruits were ripe the first minute, and in Heaven it is always beautifully autumn, His mercies are forever in their maturity."

Above all else you have learned here, may you leave this great school secured in the promise of God's unfailing love for you. You undoubtedly will, as Donne says, have days when you feel dark, and cold, and eclipsed. But if you desire God's mercy I promise you that help will come to you, "not as in the dawning of the day, not as the bud of the spring, but as the sun at full noon, banishing every shadow. All occasions invite divine mercy, and in Heaven it's always harvest time." I congratulate you on your very significant achievement today. May God bless you with abundant beauty and profound peace all the days of your life. I wish you God speed in lives of happiness and service and spiritual strength. I pray these will be yours, forever and forever. Congratulations!

Re: Elder Holland Testifies of the prophetic mantle of President Nelson

Posted: June 12th, 2018, 4:41 pm
by topcat
Can anybody please share some "prophetic" fruits that Elder Nelson has exhibited?

Did Elder Holland share something, or do we just have Elder Holland's "witness" that Nelson does prophetic unnamed things in public (what things?) and private (what things?)?

What's some evidence of the "mantle" that would differentiate Pres Nelson from people without the mantle?

Thanks,

Topcat

Re: Elder Holland Testifies of the prophetic mantle of President Nelson

Posted: June 12th, 2018, 6:53 pm
by Jonesy
topcat wrote: June 12th, 2018, 4:41 pm Can anybody please share some "prophetic" fruits that Elder Nelson has exhibited?

Did Elder Holland share something, or do we just have Elder Holland's "witness" that Nelson does prophetic unnamed things in public (what things?) and private (what things?)?

What's some evidence of the "mantle" that would differentiate Pres Nelson from people without the mantle?

Thanks,

Topcat
Here’s some evidence: ask God if they hold the proper keys.

Re: Elder Holland Testifies of the prophetic mantle of President Nelson

Posted: June 12th, 2018, 7:02 pm
by Jesef
Hey Jonesy, how do you explain or reconcile all the folks praying, left and right, and getting different or rather contradictory answers? All the Snuffer followers pray and believe Denver has the "keys" - that he actually "wrested" them from the LDS Church & Brethren much like Joseph Smith taught that John the Baptist did from the Jews. And then many, many still active Latter-Day Saints who have prayed and had confirmed that now President Nelson is the Lord's chosen/anointed prophet with all the keys. I guess they both can't be right (but they could one or the other or both be wrong). Did you pray about it? If so, what answer did you receive and how (in what manner did your answer come)? Thanks.

Re: Elder Holland Testifies of the prophetic mantle of President Nelson

Posted: June 12th, 2018, 7:48 pm
by Jonesy
Jesef wrote: June 12th, 2018, 7:02 pm Hey Jonesy, how do you explain or reconcile all the folks praying, left and right, and getting different or rather contradictory answers? All the Snuffer followers pray and believe Denver has the "keys" - that he actually "wrested" them from the LDS Church & Brethren much like Joseph Smith taught that John the Baptist did from the Jews. And then many, many still active Latter-Day Saints who have prayed and had confirmed that now President Nelson is the Lord's chosen/anointed prophet with all the keys. I guess they both can't be right (but they could one or the other or both be wrong). Did you pray about it? If so, what answer did you receive and how (in what manner did your answer come)? Thanks.
By obtaining the gift of the discerning of spirits. I do not claim that gift, but I have sincerely tasted of both waters. I’ve experienced both sides. I think, for me, part of it was a matter of not having all the information. And I truly believe that if they give the church a second, sincere glance that they will see and be led to what I now know and understand. I know various others with that experience and I bet many more are now seeing that. Maybe they are still jaded with the church, but they can see the DS movement for what it is and has become. I’ve tasted the same spirit of resentment and bitterness towards the church which often manifests itself from that camp. I’m not really sure I want to say how my own answer came in its entirety, maybe I have here already; I don’t know. I don’t think my answer is relevant here. Maybe I’ll give it later.

I guess I should have given a better answer in my post above, but I guess it was just laziness on my part. Here is what helped me. I know I give this guy a lot of credit, but I find his unique ability to expound on these things really helpful and I haven’t seen anything better. It feels right to me. Usually you get an all-or-nothing approach with “all is well in Zion”-type with whatever the opposite is. His stance felt the most even-keeled and much has rang true to me. It was such a peculiar timing that I believe it was divinely inspired that I came acrossed it. Also, as an ex-Snufferite myself, I think he’s hands down the greatest source to start with from turning away from the DS camp in my opinion. I think this link will direct one to a good explanation of the keys. I would go the extra mile and read this one as well.

Surely I don’t have all the answers, nor do I claim them. I can only speak from my experience and what rings true to me. That’s all I can share and give to others and I hope it helps. If we don’t see eye to eye in the end, I guess I just have to be content with that.

Re: Elder Holland Testifies of the prophetic mantle of President Nelson

Posted: June 12th, 2018, 9:52 pm
by Jesef
Thanks for sharing, Jonesy. You seem straight up. I think LDS Anarchist is high on his own spiritual crap (or whatever it is). But that's just me.

Re: Elder Holland Testifies of the prophetic mantle of President Nelson

Posted: June 13th, 2018, 8:31 am
by Onsdag
Jesef wrote: June 12th, 2018, 7:02 pm Hey Jonesy, how do you explain or reconcile all the folks praying, left and right, and getting different or rather contradictory answers? All the Snuffer followers pray and believe Denver has the "keys" - that he actually "wrested" them from the LDS Church & Brethren much like Joseph Smith taught that John the Baptist did from the Jews. And then many, many still active Latter-Day Saints who have prayed and had confirmed that now President Nelson is the Lord's chosen/anointed prophet with all the keys. I guess they both can't be right (but they could one or the other or both be wrong). Did you pray about it? If so, what answer did you receive and how (in what manner did your answer come)? Thanks.
Ezekiel 14:1-11 holds the answer to your question, if you will but hear it.

Re: Elder Holland Testifies of the prophetic mantle of President Nelson

Posted: June 13th, 2018, 11:43 am
by Jesef
Why would God talk to Ezekiel about us in 622BC? That's like (2018+622) 2600+ years in advance. Stop and consider how ridiculous that is. Wouldn't God talk to people about things relevant to them. Is the Lord talking to us right now about events 2000-3000 years in the future? Uh, no, because that is utterly impractical, even nonsensical, and certainly irrelevant. This is what is called parallelomania - in which spiritual extremists "liken" everything to their present circumstances and try to make everything fit somehow into their worldview - it's also chalk full of confirmation bias - everything points to "Yes" (confirming your chosen paradigm/belief-system). Onsdag, apparently you are a Snuffer believer/follower - I'm guessing - since so many of you employ that set of verses to condemn the LDS Church/Brethren as the errant elders of Israel - is that true? "If you will but hear it" - are you actually trying to sound prophetic, authoritative, and scripture-like?

Re: Elder Holland Testifies of the prophetic mantle of President Nelson

Posted: June 13th, 2018, 12:18 pm
by ajax
Jesef wrote: June 13th, 2018, 11:43 am Onsdag, apparently you are a Snuffer believer/follower - I'm guessing -
There doesn't seem to be anything in Onsdag's history to suggest this. This seems to be a kind of nasty habit/ annoying tick you have to automatically jump to this conclusion. Let it go Jes, let it go... :P

Re: Elder Holland Testifies of the prophetic mantle of President Nelson

Posted: June 13th, 2018, 12:25 pm
by Lizzy60
Jesef wrote: June 13th, 2018, 11:43 am Why would God talk to Ezekiel about us in 622BC? That's like (2018+622) 2600+ years in advance. Stop and consider how ridiculous that is. Wouldn't God talk to people about things relevant to them. Is the Lord talking to us right now about events 2000-3000 years in the future? Uh, no, because that is utterly impractical, even nonsensical, and certainly irrelevant. This is what is called parallelomania - in which spiritual extremists "liken" everything to their present circumstances and try to make everything fit somehow into their worldview - it's also chalk full of confirmation bias - everything points to "Yes" (confirming your chosen paradigm/belief-system). Onsdag, apparently you are a Snuffer believer/follower - I'm guessing - since so many of you employ that set of verses to condemn the LDS Church/Brethren as the errant elders of Israel - is that true? "If you will but hear it" - are you actually trying to sound prophetic, authoritative, and scripture-like?
Ummmmm, God talked to Isaiah about our day, and then had the Book of Mormon writers include much of Isaiah so that we, today, could have a second witness that Isaiah was prophesying for our time. That is, if you believe we are in the Last Days.

There are three pivotal events in the history of this Earth. The Fall of Adam and Eve, the Ministry and Atonement and Resurrection of Christ, and the Second Coming of Christ. Just as there are prophecies of Christ's mortal ministry in the Old Testament, which prophecies Christ declared He had fulfilled, there are also prophecies of His Second Coming in both the Old and New Testament.

Re: Elder Holland Testifies of the prophetic mantle of President Nelson

Posted: June 13th, 2018, 4:05 pm
by Jesef
ajax wrote: June 13th, 2018, 12:18 pm
Jesef wrote: June 13th, 2018, 11:43 am Onsdag, apparently you are a Snuffer believer/follower - I'm guessing -
There doesn't seem to be anything in Onsdag's history to suggest this. This seems to be a kind of nasty habit/ annoying tick you have to automatically jump to this conclusion. Let it go Jes, let it go... :P
Ha, ha - you're probably right! But it was more of a question to Onsdag - his comment was all mysterious and prophetic-like, but it referred to sort of a possible dichotomy in my previous comment (that he was commenting on), so I was curious. I don't mind the people who are choosing to believe/follow Snuffer. All the ones I know personally are harmless, good folks - would be happy to have them as neighbors - a little on the spiritually fantastic & extreme side, but I'd still take them any day. I few of them have gone off the rails, in my opinion, but I'm still friends with several.

Re: Elder Holland Testifies of the prophetic mantle of President Nelson

Posted: June 13th, 2018, 4:09 pm
by Jesef
Lizzy60 wrote: June 13th, 2018, 12:25 pm
Jesef wrote: June 13th, 2018, 11:43 am Why would God talk to Ezekiel about us in 622BC? That's like (2018+622) 2600+ years in advance. Stop and consider how ridiculous that is. Wouldn't God talk to people about things relevant to them. Is the Lord talking to us right now about events 2000-3000 years in the future? Uh, no, because that is utterly impractical, even nonsensical, and certainly irrelevant. This is what is called parallelomania - in which spiritual extremists "liken" everything to their present circumstances and try to make everything fit somehow into their worldview - it's also chalk full of confirmation bias - everything points to "Yes" (confirming your chosen paradigm/belief-system). Onsdag, apparently you are a Snuffer believer/follower - I'm guessing - since so many of you employ that set of verses to condemn the LDS Church/Brethren as the errant elders of Israel - is that true? "If you will but hear it" - are you actually trying to sound prophetic, authoritative, and scripture-like?
Ummmmm, God talked to Isaiah about our day, and then had the Book of Mormon writers include much of Isaiah so that we, today, could have a second witness that Isaiah was prophesying for our time. That is, if you believe we are in the Last Days.

There are three pivotal events in the history of this Earth. The Fall of Adam and Eve, the Ministry and Atonement and Resurrection of Christ, and the Second Coming of Christ. Just as there are prophecies of Christ's mortal ministry in the Old Testament, which prophecies Christ declared He had fulfilled, there are also prophecies of His Second Coming in both the Old and New Testament.
Yeah, Isaiah's stuff is always being used (in every generation, going back literally hundreds of years) as support for or explanation of current events. Maybe it's because every generation since like A.D. 300 has believed they were "the last days". Maybe "the last days" is personal, like the the last days of your life. Are we really at the end of the world now, or in 20 years, or is it another 100 or even 1000 years away? Who knows. Every generation has thought it was them. Reality will tell the truth. Interpretations of scripture & prophecy have failed over and over and over again.

Re: Elder Holland Testifies of the prophetic mantle of President Nelson

Posted: June 13th, 2018, 7:33 pm
by Onsdag
Jesef wrote: June 13th, 2018, 11:43 am Why would God talk to Ezekiel about us in 622BC? That's like (2018+622) 2600+ years in advance. Stop and consider how ridiculous that is. Wouldn't God talk to people about things relevant to them. Is the Lord talking to us right now about events 2000-3000 years in the future? Uh, no, because that is utterly impractical, even nonsensical, and certainly irrelevant. This is what is called parallelomania - in which spiritual extremists "liken" everything to their present circumstances and try to make everything fit somehow into their worldview - it's also chalk full of confirmation bias - everything points to "Yes" (confirming your chosen paradigm/belief-system). Onsdag, apparently you are a Snuffer believer/follower - I'm guessing - since so many of you employ that set of verses to condemn the LDS Church/Brethren as the errant elders of Israel - is that true? "If you will but hear it" - are you actually trying to sound prophetic, authoritative, and scripture-like?
I must admit that I am utterly baffled and perplexed by your post.

First, let me be completely clear - I am a faithful member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I have never been a believer or follower of Denver Snuffer, and have in fact on many occasions taught and warned others against his false teachings. Such is the case now and I have actually put forth that scripture in Ezekiel as evidence that he is indeed a false prophet.

Secondly, as for the reason why I said what I said - it was an invitation for you to read, study, ponder upon, and search the scriptures for greater light and understanding. I have found that often I get the most out of the scriptures when I put in the effort to personally understand them instead of just expecting others to explain them for me. I was simply giving you the opportunity to exercise a little effort on your own behalf to find the answer before I shared why I feel that scripture answers your question.

Now, back to the rest of your post. What?!? Again, you have completely baffled me by your response. Are you a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? I ask because I have never met another member who espouses any of your beliefs you just shared in that post. Do you believe in God? Do you believe that the scriptures are the word of God? You certainly seem to at least be acquainted with the Church as you have named an apostate and lashed out at me with the mistaken belief I was condemning the Church and/or Brethren. If you are indeed a member of the Church, believe in God, and believe the scriptures are the word of God, then how is it you can hold to the strange beliefs that 1) prophets can't forsee and/or prophesy of the future, and that such things are "nonsensical," 2) that past generations/people are "irrelevant" to current/future generations, and vice versa, and 3) the scriptures aren't meant/intended for us, and that to "liken" the scriptures to ourselves and/or our current situation is a sign of unhealthy "spiritual extremism?" Do you really hold to those beliefs? This is why I am so perplexed because all three of those beliefs completely contradict the teachings of the Church, scriptures, and prophets of God. Please tell me I am somehow mistaken and that you really don't believe any of that.

Re: Elder Holland Testifies of the prophetic mantle of President Nelson

Posted: June 13th, 2018, 7:56 pm
by Jesef
Thanks for answering the Snuffer part, Onsdag - nice to know you didn't fall for it.

As for the rest, I might take too much time & effort to explain. But the short answer is I don't think Ezekiel is talking to us (in 2018), nor was he speaking to the LDS or Christians from 1845 or 1945 who were "likening" his words to their time-period. In short, people in every generation are "likening" (drawing parallels or trying to find fulfillment) ancient Biblical writings &/or prophecies to their time and circumstances - but that doesn't mean that's what they were really intended to mean or why they were originally written.

Parallelomania - "In historical analysis, biblical criticism and comparative mythology, parallelomania refers to a phenomenon where authors perceive apparent similarities and construct parallels and analogies allegedly without historical basis."

In other words, just because you perceive meaning & "liken" scripture to your own time and circumstances doesn't mean that is their real/true or original meaning & intent. I'm pretty sure most prophets are inspired to speak and write primarily to their own time and people. Also, the phenomena of religious people (you could even say zealots or fanatics) have been expecting the Second Coming for hundreds, even thousands, of years - as an example. The Saints still alive in Christ's time and the few centuries that followed thought and believed He was returning in their lifetimes. So did each generation of the LDS after Joseph Smith, all the way up to the present. WWI, WWII - every major conflict was interpreted as the end of the world prelude to the Apocalypse. And we are no different today - now it's like every year is marked as some significant end-time mile marker. Parallelomania, it's a real thing.

I believe in what is true/real and what actually comes to pass. Predictions & speculation & people's interpretations of scripture & prophecy I've found to be utterly unreliable. No offense.

Re: Elder Holland Testifies of the prophetic mantle of President Nelson

Posted: June 13th, 2018, 9:44 pm
by Onsdag
Jesef wrote: June 13th, 2018, 7:56 pm <snip>
Sooo... you are a member of the Church...? And I am to understand that you believe the prophetic "events" (as opposed to the "principles," "doctrines" or "teachings") spoken of in scripture do not have fulfillment/parallel in our day?

I can understand what you're saying, if my understanding of the above is correct, and I would perhaps even agree with you to some extent. But I am not saying that Ezekiel is prophesying of an "event" in our day (i.e. the apostasy of Denver Snuffer and the whole "Remnant" movement in general). Rather, I shared that scripture because, I believe, the Lord is teaching us a "principle" in that scripture, which does have application in our current situation (i.e. that the Lord allows otherwise "good" people to be deceived because their hearts are more set on their "idols" (seeing Jesus in the flesh, calling and election made sure, the "call-out," energy healing, etc.) than they are of truth and the things of God). Though Ezekiel was speaking specifically of the people of his day we can and ought to be "likening" the scriptures to ourselves because the principles are the same no matter which generation we live in. As such, here is my own understanding and how I would "liken" this scripture in Ezekiel to our day:
1 Then came certain of the elders of Israel unto me, and sat before me. The "elders" of Israel - i.e. members of the Church, otherwise "good" people - come to a true prophet of God, ostensibly to seek the mind and will of God.

2 And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, the truth is made known to the true prophet of God, which is...

3 Son of man, these men have set up their idols in their heart, and put the stumblingblock of their iniquity before their face: should I be inquired of at all by them? these so-called saints, members, etc. have their hearts too set on their "idols," which can be anything really, but as an example we'll go with the "call-out." They are overzealous towards their "idols" at the expense of the true God of Israel that these "idols" become a stumbling block of iniquity to them. Because of this they are not prepared to hear/receive the things of God and God won't honor their rebellion.

4 Therefore speak unto them, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Every man of the house of Israel that setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to the prophet; I the Lord will answer him that cometh according to the multitude of his idols; i.e. the Lord will give them what they want to hear rather than the truth. Therefore the "call-out" people will receive a "witness from God" that the "call-out" is true (or Denver Snuffer is true, the Brethren are fallen into apostasy, or whatever other gross error they entertain or "idolize" in their hearts).

5 That I may take the house of Israel in their own heart, because they are all estranged from me through their idols. The Lord will test the people and prove them to see if they love him more than their "idols," or if they seek to have other gods before him.

6 ¶ Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord God; Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols; and turn away your faces from all your abominations. The Lord will still call his people to repentance through his true prophets and servants, as we have seen in our own day from Elder Cook for example.

7 For every one of the house of Israel, or of the stranger that sojourneth in Israel, which separateth himself from me, and setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to a prophet to inquire of him concerning me; I the Lord will answer him by myself: these idolaters will look for confirmation bias in anything the prophets say which will support their worldview and their "idols." And if they can't get it from a true prophet of God they'll heap to themselves teachers and false prophets who will teach them what they want to hear - i.e. the Rowe's, Sosa's, Snuffer's, and Hiram Page's of the world.

8 And I will set my face against that man, and will make him a sign and a proverb, and I will cut him off from the midst of my people; and ye shall know that I am the Lord. These people may enjoy fellowship in the Church for a season, but if they don't repent eventually they'll find themselves cut off from the Church, just like Denver Snuffer and his followers.

9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel. e.g. Denver Snuffer, the false prophet. Remember, the Lord is still speaking to his people through a true prophet of God, Ezekiel in this case, and therefore it's not talking about these true prophets, but rather the false ones that the people have heaped to themselves.

10 And they shall bear the punishment of their iniquity: the punishment of the prophet shall be even as the punishment of him that seeketh unto him; Again, the false prophets and their followers share the same fate - just like Denver Snuffer and his followers have been cut off from the Church and its blessings.

11 That the house of Israel may go no more astray from me, neither be polluted any more with all their transgressions; but that they may be my people, and I may be their God, saith the Lord God. This he does so the Church in general will be protected from the wolves amongst them, so that they will be his people and become sanctified.
Again, these are principles being taught in scripture. Another scripture which teaches this same principle is 2 Thessalonians 2: 8-12 which teaches: "And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." This is the answer to your question of why many people are "getting different or rather contradictory answers" about Denver Snuffer or other matters - because some people don't love the truth and would rather believe a lie, and so God allows them to receive a "strong delusion" because that's what their hearts are set on. Another great example of this principle in scripture is found in 2 Chronicles 18:4-34 (note also the JST in these verses), wherein we read how Ahab and his false prophets wanted to hear only what they wanted to hear so bad that they would not listen to the true prophet of God, Micaiah, and so God allowed a lying spirit to deceive them to their (or at least Ahab's) utter destruction. See also 2 Timothy 4:3-4

Is that clear enough for you? Or should I go back to being cryptic? ;)

Re: Elder Holland Testifies of the prophetic mantle of President Nelson

Posted: June 13th, 2018, 10:58 pm
by Jesef
Thanks for the clarification. That's fantastic "likening" you've done there. Perfect example. And you're free to do so and believe that you have eyes to see and ears to hear and all that. :)

Re: Elder Holland Testifies of the prophetic mantle of President Nelson

Posted: June 13th, 2018, 11:30 pm
by Jesef
Parallelomania, "likening", which is it? it's a real thing, but it's often not about real things.

So here's some fun. Both Snuffer and his best pal & #1 devotee Adrian Larsen have used Ezekiel 14 with a different interpretation (an anti-LDS brethren one). Type the phrases between brackets (not the brackets though) into Google (it does a Google search on their sites - handy tool):

[site:denversnuffer.com "ezekiel 14"]

[site:totheremnant.com "ezekiel 14"]

Also, the Snufferites did a great job drawing parallels for their movement, like: Denver was like Abinadi and the Brethren were like wicked King Noah & his priests (and they kept expecting a parallel of Alma to emerge from among them and join them - they also thought Denver might get killed) - this one was especially convincing and effective as it demonstrated that the Lord can call prophets from outside the organized Church hierarchy if they have apostatized, in order to call them & the people to repentance. Denver drew his own parallel for himself being like John the Baptist and the LDS Church & Brethren were the wicked Jews and he wrested the keys from them (like Joseph taught John did) - likewise, the same principle.

So, you see, just a few examples - but everyone can read and twist and apply so very many of the scriptures & prophecies and stories and examples to support pretty much any pattern they want - and they all seem to believe the Spirit has given them the one true interpretation.

But most of it is actually ridiculous.

Found a couple more:

Good ol' Rock Waterman:
[site:puremormonism.blogspot.com "ezekiel 14"]

And good ol' Log/Jared:
[site:logscabin.blogspot.com "ezekiel 14"]

Both on the Snuffer train, as far as I know - although Log/Jared keeps trying to get himself kicked out - or maybe he just likes getting under people's skin.

Re: Elder Holland Testifies of the prophetic mantle of President Nelson

Posted: June 14th, 2018, 8:50 am
by Onsdag
You still haven't answered my simple question asking if you are a member of the Church. And now you're actively posting Anti-Mormon stuff for people to search out? Your teachings against "likening" the scriptures to ourselves, and that the prophets haven't seen or spoken of our days does contradict the word of God found in both scripture and from the prophets.

"We should “liken all scriptures unto us … for our profit and learning.” (1 Nephi 19:23)" - Elder Russell M. Nelson, April 2014 General Conference.

Re: Elder Holland Testifies of the prophetic mantle of President Nelson

Posted: June 14th, 2018, 9:33 am
by Finrock
Onsdag wrote: June 14th, 2018, 8:50 am You still haven't answered my simple question asking if you are a member of the Church. And now you're actively posting Anti-Mormon stuff for people to search out? Your teachings against "likening" the scriptures to ourselves, and that the prophets haven't seen or spoken of our days does contradict the word of God found in both scripture and from the prophets.

"We should “liken all scriptures unto us … for our profit and learning.” (1 Nephi 19:23)" - Elder Russell M. Nelson, April 2014 General Conference.
His Church membership is irrelevant. If its that important to you, do some foot work and search Jesef's posts. In any case, what does it matter? Him being a member or not a member doesn't make your argument right or wrong. It doesn't make Jesef's points right or wrong. Church membership is not a reliable indicator of a person's heart, of their meaning, of the truth value of their words, or anything like that. Its a lousy indicator and its logically fallacious.

He hasn't posted any anti-Mormon stuff. He has posted anti-Onsdag belief and opinions. We all ought to consider people's words on the merits of their words alone and put aside our biases, prejudices, etc. at least long enough so that we can understand what is being said even if we disagree. Because you are equating Jesef's words with "anti-Mormon" ideas means that you don't understand what Jesef is saying or you are just using a rhetorical tactic to try to "win" the debate.

-Finrock