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Re: "The Lord Walks These Halls"
Posted: June 6th, 2018, 9:57 pm
by Rand
Stahura wrote: ↑June 6th, 2018, 4:38 pm
Dusty52 wrote: ↑June 5th, 2018, 5:41 am
I am interested in this view that the Lord walks these halls, I for one would hope that he also walks in the halls of the needy, the poor and the oppressed wherever they are in the world offering succor and solace!
IMO, it's not his job. It's your job, and mine. We should be begotten, sanctified, reborn Children of Christ who do the same works he would do. Easier said than done, I know. I fail, you fail, we all fail.
I don't think trying to rescue all the starving children was the focus of his earthly mission, much less the focus of his mission now. As Stahura said, it is our job to seek out the poor and the needy. For some reason we try to distort what the Savior was and is about. His work and glory is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man, not to make sure that no one, innocent children included, misses a meal or gets treated poorly.
As horrible as it is to see children suffer or to be mistreated in any of the myriad of ways that do happen all to often, to assert that the Saviors mission is to prevent that or to stop that suffering, is a misunderstanding of his mission.
Re: "The Lord Walks These Halls"
Posted: June 7th, 2018, 12:26 am
by Dusty52
I have an issue with suffering
I've had it for many years
It is this
Why would a loving heavenly father allow the suffering of his children?,that includes everyone, adults etc
You've heard it all before
I know all about the free agency argument etc
My father in law served in the army during the 2WE, he was at Arnhem and saw his best friends get killed next to him, he was captured by the Germans and was a POW, whilst a prisoner he recieved injuries which he still suffers from at the age of 94
He asks me where was God at Arnhem?
So when I saw this thread talking about where God is I thought about places where he could be.
It is a very difficult issue and I don't think I'll get to the bottom of it or understand it
from this side of the veil!
Re: "The Lord Walks These Halls"
Posted: June 7th, 2018, 10:24 am
by AI2.0
Dusty52 wrote: ↑June 6th, 2018, 4:24 pm
What a friendly bunch you are!!
I think we are friendly enough.
What I don't understand is why you made this an 'either' 'or' declaration. You seemed to suggest that if the Lord walks the halls of the temple, then he can't also walk the slums, dumps and alleys of human suffering.
That seemed to be a suggestion that you think Mormons believe Jesus only walks the halls of the temple. That isn't what we believe.
The temples are set apart and dedicated as a place where the spirit (and even personage) of the Lord can dwell, but it's not confining, in that he ONLY walks there. He is our Lord and Savior and he loves all of us, he loves the children. The church's humanitarian efforts are an example of what we as a church are trying to do to help relieve the suffering of children and adults all over the world.
That said, I hope that you are doing what you can to relieve suffering, because it is often through the efforts of us humans that the Lord is able to bless and relieve suffering.
Re: "The Lord Walks These Halls"
Posted: June 7th, 2018, 10:25 am
by Tbone
Dusty52 wrote: ↑June 7th, 2018, 12:26 am
I have an issue with suffering
I've had it for many years
It is this
Why would a loving heavenly father allow the suffering of his children?,that includes everyone, adults etc
You've heard it all before
I know all about the free agency argument etc
My father in law served in the army during the 2WE, he was at Arnhem and saw his best friends get killed next to him, he was captured by the Germans and was a POW, whilst a prisoner he recieved injuries which he still suffers from at the age of 94
He asks me where was God at Arnhem?
So when I saw this thread talking about where God is I thought about places where he could be.
It is a very difficult issue and I don't think I'll get to the bottom of it or understand it
from this side of the veil!
Your comment is very interesting, especially about your father in law, since it coincides somewhat with some thoughts I had while reading in the Book of Mormon this week. We often talk about God fulfilling his promise to preserve the 2,000 stripling warriors, but even though they all miraculously survived, every single one of them were wounded and many of them were very severely wounded. No doubt they suffered from those injuries for the rest of their lives. They also watched their fellow soldiers die brutal deaths.
Even when God does provide protection, a life without suffering doesn't appear to be a part of the package we got when we came here, even if that suffering is as severe as what your father in law went through and is going through.
Re: "The Lord Walks These Halls"
Posted: June 7th, 2018, 8:07 pm
by brianj
Tbone wrote: ↑June 7th, 2018, 10:25 am
Even when God does provide protection, a life without suffering doesn't appear to be a part of the package we got when we came here, even if that suffering is as severe as what your father in law went through and is going through.
I have been wondering about this. I agree that it doesn't seem that a life without suffering provides the growth that Heavenly Father has in mind for us, but what about those born during the Millennium? Will there be suffering during that time frame? If not, how do the people born or raised in that time frame grow and progress?
Re: "The Lord Walks These Halls"
Posted: June 12th, 2018, 9:21 am
by EdGoble
brianj wrote: ↑June 7th, 2018, 8:07 pm
I have been wondering about this. I agree that it doesn't seem that a life without suffering provides the growth that Heavenly Father has in mind for us, but what about those born during the Millennium? Will there be suffering during that time frame? If not, how do the people born or raised in that time frame grow and progress?
My understanding is there will be no suffering, so I assume that those that are born in that time period will not need that suffering for their progression somehow. Those that needed to face that kind of suffering for their progress will have already done so. This may have to do with some difference in advancement of spirits that will be born in that time period. I have no idea why.
Whatever the case, all of this is factored in to a perfect plan of our Heavenly Father that knows who needs what for their advancement and progress toward eternal life.
I do know that we have been told that no experience that we have in this life is wasted in fashioning us into what the Lord would have us become. And we have been told that the Lord has a perfect individual plan for each person's progress. And therefore, I can only assume that this means that for those people born then, it is not required of them to suffer in order to progress. Because somehow, in his plan for each person that lived before then that did have to suffer needed that suffering somehow for their progression.
Another fact that might shed light on this is the fact that aborted babies are only required to suffer the amount of suffering that they go through when they are aborted, and that is it. Their suffering is very momentary at the moment of their death. And then they have no more suffering. One would assume that the same is so for stillborns, if they went through any suffering in the womb, when they die for whatever reason in the womb. And then they are resurrected in the Millennium as babies, and cared for by either parents that repent for the deed, who have not sinned away the right to those children, or parents the children are given to and adopted to. And then they grow to full stature and marry and progress naturally as if they were anyone else, but they are resurrected. And so, for them, there is almost no suffering except for what they went through in the womb. And somehow, these people end up having everything they need for their exaltation and progress.
Re: "The Lord Walks These Halls"
Posted: June 12th, 2018, 10:05 pm
by brianj
EdGoble wrote: ↑June 12th, 2018, 9:21 am
brianj wrote: ↑June 7th, 2018, 8:07 pm
I have been wondering about this. I agree that it doesn't seem that a life without suffering provides the growth that Heavenly Father has in mind for us, but what about those born during the Millennium? Will there be suffering during that time frame? If not, how do the people born or raised in that time frame grow and progress?
My understanding is there will be no suffering, so I assume that those that are born in that time period will not need that suffering for their progression somehow. Those that needed to face that kind of suffering for their progress will have already done so. This may have to do with some difference in advancement of spirits that will be born in that time period. I have no idea why.
Whatever the case, all of this is factored in to a perfect plan of our Heavenly Father that knows who needs what for their advancement and progress toward eternal life.
I do know that we have been told that no experience that we have in this life is wasted in fashioning us into what the Lord would have us become. And we have been told that the Lord has a perfect individual plan for each person's progress. And therefore, I can only assume that this means that for those people born then, it is not required of them to suffer in order to progress. Because somehow, in his plan for each person that lived before then that did have to suffer needed that suffering somehow for their progression.
Another fact that might shed light on this is the fact that aborted babies are only required to suffer the amount of suffering that they go through when they are aborted, and that is it. Their suffering is very momentary at the moment of their death. And then they have no more suffering. One would assume that the same is so for stillborns, if they went through any suffering in the womb, when they die for whatever reason in the womb. And then they are resurrected in the Millennium as babies, and cared for by either parents that repent for the deed, who have not sinned away the right to those children, or parents the children are given to and adopted to. And then they grow to full stature and marry and progress naturally as if they were anyone else, but they are resurrected. And so, for them, there is almost no suffering except for what they went through in the womb. And somehow, these people end up having everything they need for their exaltation and progress.
Sometimes I think of eventually going to the spirit world where I eventually meet people who died in infancy. I hear their story and say, "You're so lucky! You didn't have to suffer all the pains of life!"
They reply, "You're so lucky! You got to experience growing up, all the growth of adulthood, and family!"
And since you mentioned abortion, I also visualize women dying, meeting relatives as they enter the spirit world, and then meeting a sorrowful child who asks, "Why did you kill me? Why wouldn't you let me be born?" For many women who have abortions, this will be hell. The rest will sadly be so cold and beyond feeling that it won't hurt them at all.
Re: "The Lord Walks These Halls"
Posted: June 13th, 2018, 8:24 am
by EdGoble
brianj wrote: ↑June 12th, 2018, 10:05 pm
Sometimes I think of eventually going to the spirit world where I eventually meet people who died in infancy. I hear their story and say, "You're so lucky! You didn't have to suffer all the pains of life!"
They reply, "You're so lucky! You got to experience growing up, all the growth of adulthood, and family!"
And since you mentioned abortion, I also visualize women dying, meeting relatives as they enter the spirit world, and then meeting a sorrowful child who asks, "Why did you kill me? Why wouldn't you let me be born?" For many women who have abortions, this will be hell. The rest will sadly be so cold and beyond feeling that it won't hurt them at all.
Yes, possibly. However, I believe that the Lord makes up for all of our losses, including experiences. So children or anyone else who's life was cut short will have the equivalent of a mortality as they grow, going through childhood, etc. on the terrestrial earth as everyone else. Even though they are a celestial being, their glory is not evident yet, and they appear as a normal person. However, once they hit their adulthood, since they are already automatically a god and exalted, and then they assume their throne in a celestial world, and then their glory is "turned on." This point of view is pure speculation, but it is how I envision it. What is not speculation though is that the Lord makes up for all losses, whatever they are, somehow.
Re: "The Lord Walks These Halls"
Posted: June 15th, 2018, 7:05 pm
by RTaylor
Dusty52 wrote: ↑June 7th, 2018, 12:26 am
I have an issue with suffering
I've had it for many years
It is this
Why would a loving heavenly father allow the suffering of his children?,that includes everyone, adults etc
You've heard it all before
I know all about the free agency argument etc
My father in law served in the army during the 2WE, he was at Arnhem and saw his best friends get killed next to him, he was captured by the Germans and was a POW, whilst a prisoner he recieved injuries which he still suffers from at the age of 94
He asks me where was God at Arnhem?
So when I saw this thread talking about where God is I thought about places where he could be.
It is a very difficult issue and I don't think I'll get to the bottom of it or understand it
from this side of the veil!
As a sufferer I too didn't understand, till I almost died over the course of weeks.
Living with a horrifically (for the past decade) painful disease molded me. It broke me and it wasn't till I started having bouts of loosing consciousness that it hit me that no one but God could save me.
I wept bitterly that night and begged him to save me from my sins and from death. My family still doesn't understand how I now view this trial as the greatest thing to happen to me. The night he saved me was both the most terrible and wonderful experience I've ever had.
In the end being able to return to God's presence is what matters above all.