LDS Freedom Forum

Concerning those who will receive the terrestrial, or lesser, kingdom, the Lord said, “These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus; wherefore, they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of our God.” (D&C 76:79; italics added.) Not to be valiant in one’s testimony is a tragedy of eternal consequence. These are members who know this latter-day work is true, but who fail to endure to the end. Some may even hold temple recommends, but do not magnify their callings in the Church. Without valor, they do not take an affirmative stand for the kingdom of God. Some seek the praise, adulation, and honors of men; others attempt to conceal their sins; and a few criticize those who preside over them.

Considering some of the challenges which the Church faces currently, and which it will continue to face in the future, three statements of former Church leaders come to mind.

President Joseph F. Smith said, “There are at least three dangers that threaten the Church within, … they are flattery of prominent men in the world, false educational ideas, and sexual impurity.” (Gospel Doctrine, 5th ed., Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1939, pp. 312–13.) These three dangers are of greater concern today than when they were identified by President Smith.

A second statement was a prophecy by Heber C. Kimball, counselor to President Brigham Young. Speaking to members of the Church who had come to the Salt Lake Valley, he declared:

“To meet the difficulties that are coming, it will be necessary for you to have a knowledge of the truth of this work for yourselves. The difficulties will be of such a character that the man or woman who does not possess this personal knowledge or witness will fall. If you have not got the testimony, live right and call upon the Lord and cease not till you obtain it. If you do not you will not stand. …

“The time will come when no man nor woman will be able to endure on borrowed light. Each will have to be guided by the light within himself. …

“If you don’t have it you will not stand; therefore seek for the testimony of Jesus and cleave to it, that when the trying time comes you may not stumble and fall.” (Orson F. Whitney, Life of Heber C. Kimball, Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1967, p. 450.)

The third statement is from President Harold B. Lee, my boyhood companion and friend, and eleventh President of the Church:

“We have some tight places to go before the Lord is through with this church and the world in this dispensation, which is the last dispensation, which shall usher in the coming of the Lord. The gospel was restored to prepare a people ready to receive him. The power of Satan will increase; we see it in evidence on every hand. There will be inroads within the Church. … We will see those who profess membership but secretly are plotting and trying to lead people not to follow the leadership that the Lord has set up to preside in this church.

“Now the only safety we have as members of this church is to do exactly what the Lord said to the Church in that day when the Church was organized. We must learn to give heed to the words and commandments that the Lord shall give through his prophet, ‘as he receiveth them, walking in all holiness before me; … as if from mine own mouth, in all patience and faith.’ (D&C 21:4–5.) There will be some things that take patience and faith. You may not like what comes from the authority of the Church. … But if you listen to these things, as if from the mouth of the Lord himself, with patience and faith, the promise is that ‘the gates of hell shall not prevail against you; yea, and the Lord God will disperse the powers of darkness from before you, and cause the heavens to shake for your good, and his name’s glory.’ (D&C 21:6.)” (In Conference Report, Oct. 1970, p. 152.)

Now, it seems to me that we have within those three prophetic statements the counsel we need, the counsel that is necessary to stay valiant in our testimony of Jesus and of the work of His church in these troubled times.

One who rationalizes that he or she has a testimony of Jesus Christ but cannot accept direction and counsel from the leadership of His church is in a fundamentally unsound position and is in jeopardy of losing exaltation.

D&C 88: 3 Wherefore, I now send upon you another Comforter, even upon you my friends, that it may abide in your hearts, even the Holy Spirit of promise; which other Comforter is the same that I promised unto my disciples, as is recorded in the testimony of John.This Comforter is the promise which I give unto you of eternal life, even the glory of the celestial kingdom; ... prepare yourselves, and sanctify yourselves; yea, purify your hearts, and cleanse your hands and your feet before me, that I may make you clean; That I may testify unto your Father, and your God, and my God, that you are clean from the blood of this wicked generation; that I may fulfil this promise, this great and last promise, which I have made unto you, when I will.

natasha wrote: ↑June 14th, 2018, 9:55 am This is a great talk given by Pres. Benson. The WHOLE talk was not quoted above and I think that that portion of the talk is just as important and speaks mightily, I believe, to this very day. I would hope that everyone reading this thread would also read the whole talk at the URL that was posted above.

Jesef wrote: ↑June 14th, 2018, 11:49 pm Yep, if Christ hasn't found you worthy enough to not only appear to you, but in the body, and if you haven't touched His literal resurrected body, wounds, etc., and if He hasn't personally introduced you to His Father (& Mother) - if you do not attain all this before you physically die, you are not saved, you will not be exalted, you are toast basically.

Everything I just said - Not/Negatory/False. That is a spiritually extreme paradigm. And before you rebut - ask yourself this, how many people do you know who have received what I hypothetically (and sarcastically) described? And also ask yourself if you truly believe in a Benevolent and Loving God/Creator who is both Competent, Powerful, Fair/Equitable, and Merciful, and is trying to save as many souls as possible, not condemn as many souls as possible? Really think about it.

I feel truly sorry for the people who are adopting such a high-barred, extreme, and impossibly unrealistic & spiritually strenuous salvation paradigm.

D&C 93:1 Verily, thus saith the Lord: It shall come to pass that every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name, and obeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am;

115 Which he commanded us we should not write while we were yet in the Spirit, and are not lawful for man to utter; Neither is man capable to make them known, for they are only to be seen and understood by the power of the Holy Spirit, which God bestows on those who love him, and purify themselves before him; To whom he grants this privilege of seeing and knowing for themselves; That through the power and manifestation of the Spirit, while in the flesh

Moroni 10: 32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ;

D&C 121:34 Behold, there are many called, but few are chosen.

3 Nephi 14:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

"...we commend you to God and the word of his grace. You have our best wishes, you have our most fervent prayers, that you may be able to bear this testimony, that you have seen the face of God. Therefore, call upon him in faith and mighty prayer, till you prevail, for it your duty and your privelege to bear such testimony for yourselves."--Joseph Smith Papers, Minute Book 1, 12 Feb. 1834, pg. 164

This principle ought in its proper place to be taught, for God hath not revealed anything to Joseph, but what He will make known unto the Twelve, and even the least Saint may know all things as fast as he is able to bear them, for the day must come when no man need say to his neighbor, 'Know ye the Lord; for all shall know Him who, remain from the least to the greatest."--TPJS p. 149 (Doctrine of Resurrection and Election, C&E)

marc wrote: ↑June 15th, 2018, 9:01 am

"...we commend you to God and the word of his grace. You have our best wishes, you have our most fervent prayers, that you may be able to bear this testimony, that you have seen the face of God. Therefore, call upon him in faith and mighty prayer, till you prevail, for it your duty and your privelege to bear such testimony for yourselves."--Joseph Smith Papers, Minute Book 1, 12 Feb. 1834, pg. 164

Does this apply to all? Joseph Smith also declared:

This principle ought in its proper place to be taught, for God hath not revealed anything to Joseph, but what He will make known unto the Twelve, and even the least Saint may know all things as fast as he is able to bear them, for the day must come when no man need say to his neighbor, 'Know ye the Lord; for all shall know Him who, remain from the least to the greatest."--TPJS p. 149 (Doctrine of Resurrection and Election, C&E)

This is something that Joseph continually taught. But how many LDS truly seek until they find? And if it is our duty to prevail and to testify, then either LDS are ignorant of the process, do not care enough, or simply do not believe it. And that is what Jesus Christ explicitly addresses to us in Ether 4--our unbelief. Yes, God is just and loving and compassionate and wants to save us all. And He has told us precisely how to do it and when it will be too late.

The Airbender wrote: ↑June 15th, 2018, 8:49 am Comments in purple

In the above post we read the Ezra Taft Benson said: "One who rationalizes that he or she has a testimony of Jesus Christ but cannot accept direction and counsel from the leadership of His church is in a fundamentally unsound position and is in jeopardy of losing exaltation."

It seems that there are a number of admonitions (direction and counsel) that LDS Church members have received just during the 58 years since I have been a member of the Church, which appear to have been largely ignored by many, in some cases by most members of the Church residing in the United States. (Although I have lived and worked 12 years in other countries, I'll confine my remarks to what I have observed in the United States.) Among those admonitions ignored by many Church members:

Reading the Book of Mormon
Especially, add to this the admonishment IN the Book of Mormon of the Savior who told us to study Isaiah.

Honouring the sabbath day
This, sadly, though we have been told it means our spiritual life or death, is probably one of the most broken of the ten commandments and admonishments of our prophet.

Holding family home evenings
You mean the Lord expects us to actually spend quality time with our families and teach them true principles and how to get along with each other?


Family history research and submission of names for temple ordinances

Growing home gardens
This is, in my opinion, the best and one of the only ways to get the micronutrients that we need that are not present in the food we eat.

Preparedness, including food storage,
If ye are prepared ye shall not fear. Otherwise, you have to either put your head in the sand or live in a constant state of fear. What will your kids eat?

Education
Not only is our education in this nation a joke, but it is purposefully programmed to make our kids stupid and unable to cope with real life. If you are a parent of children and you haven't looked into at least supplementing but better, completely circumventing the public education system, you will be held accountable.

Learn the principles of the U.S. Constitution in the tradition of the Founding Fathers
Those who are ignorant of history... I was listening to someone yesterday and he or she )(I don't remember who) said, "The government has made sure to take out every reference to deity in our history books, but George Washington summed up the reason we won the revolutionary war in two words, "Divine intervention."

More than understanding the constitution and our Founding Fathers, as important as they are, is to understand the principles they understood and embedded in that constitution. We have rights given to us by God. Read The Law by Frederick Bastiat. Learn what our inalienable right are. Understand that it is not about the right to bear arms, it is about the right to raise up arms in defense of our lives, rights, families, churches against the government that is taking them away from us. We are in a much worse situation today with our government than the 13 colonies were with theirs. They revolted and started the greatest nation on earth. What are we going to do? Will we be like WW2 Germany?

Upholding and defending the Constitution of the United States
Locally, we have had a doctor commit suicide and the country commisioner thrown in prison for ignoring unconstitutional laws and for upholding the constitution, consecutively.

Awakening to our "awful situation" created by a secret combination among us
Anyone who has not awoken needs to read Hiding in Plain Sight by Ken Bowers and None Dare Call it Conspiracy by Gary Allen


Thank you for your post.

Mark wrote: ↑June 15th, 2018, 9:13 am

marc wrote: ↑June 15th, 2018, 9:01 am

"...we commend you to God and the word of his grace. You have our best wishes, you have our most fervent prayers, that you may be able to bear this testimony, that you have seen the face of God. Therefore, call upon him in faith and mighty prayer, till you prevail, for it your duty and your privelege to bear such testimony for yourselves."--Joseph Smith Papers, Minute Book 1, 12 Feb. 1834, pg. 164

Does this apply to all? Joseph Smith also declared:

This principle ought in its proper place to be taught, for God hath not revealed anything to Joseph, but what He will make known unto the Twelve, and even the least Saint may know all things as fast as he is able to bear them, for the day must come when no man need say to his neighbor, 'Know ye the Lord; for all shall know Him who, remain from the least to the greatest."--TPJS p. 149 (Doctrine of Resurrection and Election, C&E)

This is something that Joseph continually taught. But how many LDS truly seek until they find? And if it is our duty to prevail and to testify, then either LDS are ignorant of the process, do not care enough, or simply do not believe it. And that is what Jesus Christ explicitly addresses to us in Ether 4--our unbelief. Yes, God is just and loving and compassionate and wants to save us all. And He has told us precisely how to do it and when it will be too late.

Too late? When will it be too late? Whose timeframe are we talking about here? The Lords or ours? Joseph said as fast as he is able to bear them. How fast is that? Maybe you can bear them faster than I can. It's not a race. Those who can bear them quicker have the big challenge of not judging or condemning others who might take a bit longer to bear them. In fact those who can bear them should become a guiding light and an inspiration full of love and compassion to those who might take a bit longer. It doesn't always work out that way it seems but it should.

38 But behold, your days of probation are past; ye have procrastinated the day of your salvation until it is everlastingly too late, and your destruction is made sure; yea, for ye have sought all the days of your lives for that which ye could not obtain; and ye have sought for happiness in doing iniquity, which thing is contrary to the nature of that righteousness which is in our great and Eternal Head.

7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,

8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.

10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.

11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end;

15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.

17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?

18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?

19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

natasha wrote: ↑June 15th, 2018, 9:24 am

The Airbender wrote: ↑June 15th, 2018, 8:49 am Comments in purple

In the above post we read the Ezra Taft Benson said: "One who rationalizes that he or she has a testimony of Jesus Christ but cannot accept direction and counsel from the leadership of His church is in a fundamentally unsound position and is in jeopardy of losing exaltation."

It seems that there are a number of admonitions (direction and counsel) that LDS Church members have received just during the 58 years since I have been a member of the Church, which appear to have been largely ignored by many, in some cases by most members of the Church residing in the United States. (Although I have lived and worked 12 years in other countries, I'll confine my remarks to what I have observed in the United States.) Among those admonitions ignored by many Church members:

Reading the Book of Mormon
Especially, add to this the admonishment IN the Book of Mormon of the Savior who told us to study Isaiah.

Honouring the sabbath day
This, sadly, though we have been told it means our spiritual life or death, is probably one of the most broken of the ten commandments and admonishments of our prophet.

Holding family home evenings
You mean the Lord expects us to actually spend quality time with our families and teach them true principles and how to get along with each other?


Family history research and submission of names for temple ordinances

Growing home gardens
This is, in my opinion, the best and one of the only ways to get the micronutrients that we need that are not present in the food we eat.

Preparedness, including food storage,
If ye are prepared ye shall not fear. Otherwise, you have to either put your head in the sand or live in a constant state of fear. What will your kids eat?

Education
Not only is our education in this nation a joke, but it is purposefully programmed to make our kids stupid and unable to cope with real life. If you are a parent of children and you haven't looked into at least supplementing but better, completely circumventing the public education system, you will be held accountable.

Learn the principles of the U.S. Constitution in the tradition of the Founding Fathers
Those who are ignorant of history... I was listening to someone yesterday and he or she )(I don't remember who) said, "The government has made sure to take out every reference to deity in our history books, but George Washington summed up the reason we won the revolutionary war in two words, "Divine intervention."

More than understanding the constitution and our Founding Fathers, as important as they are, is to understand the principles they understood and embedded in that constitution. We have rights given to us by God. Read The Law by Frederick Bastiat. Learn what our inalienable right are. Understand that it is not about the right to bear arms, it is about the right to raise up arms in defense of our lives, rights, families, churches against the government that is taking them away from us. We are in a much worse situation today with our government than the 13 colonies were with theirs. They revolted and started the greatest nation on earth. What are we going to do? Will we be like WW2 Germany?

Upholding and defending the Constitution of the United States
Locally, we have had a doctor commit suicide and the country commisioner thrown in prison for ignoring unconstitutional laws and for upholding the constitution, consecutively.

Awakening to our "awful situation" created by a secret combination among us
Anyone who has not awoken needs to read Hiding in Plain Sight by Ken Bowers and None Dare Call it Conspiracy by Gary Allen


Thank you for your post.

Thanks for your comments airbender....but I am curious as to why you made no comment under the family history portion?

investigator wrote: ↑June 15th, 2018, 8:31 am I feel truly sorry for people who have access to the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ, but do not believe His words. We do not believe Him when he tells us that He will show himself unto us, that we can become perfected in him and enter into his presence while in the flesh, even though that promise is repeatedly given throughout the scriptures. We want to believe in some wholesale salvation where millions of people will be saved in the celestial kingdom, even thought He has told us that FEW will make it there. Those who deny these realities will be sorely disappointed because their unbelief will not allow them to develop the faith necessary unto life and salvation through the atonement and mediation of Jesus Christ.

investigator wrote: ↑June 15th, 2018, 3:15 pm Jesef Wrote... My response in red.

Before we get any further into the conversation, investigator, have you actually achieved/received these things? Yes Do you know what the heck you're talking about or are you just spouting your understanding of stuff you've read? (In other words, hypothetical/mythological/theological pontifications).

Let's start with that. Because if you haven't, A) you don't know what you're talking about, and B) you're in the same boat as the people you're hypothetically condemning. I am not condemning anyone. God is going to exalt nearly all of his children. You just have not figured out how He is going to do it.

Also, the preponderance of evidence is that most of these experiences occur after death. Please show me the preponderance of the evidence that these experience happen after death. Were Lehi, Nephi, Jacob, Isaiah, Enos,King Benjamin, Alma, Mormon, The brother of Jared, Moroni, Joseph Smith and his contemporaries and countless others dead when they had these experiences? The "night" isn't over until the end, i.e. the Judgment. Everyone literally passes through the veil (of the flesh) when they die. How do you know these things don't occur then? There's scriptural evidence for it. As for millions of people being saved. You seem to basically believe in a malevolent and incompetent Deity who's trying to proactively disqualify/damn Their own children. Think about it. Would it really be fair to send so many souls down to earth, the physical/mortal plane and experience, so woefully unprepared to "pass the test"? And also send 99.999% of them into circumstances in which these requirements you're touting are not even available, much less achievable? Hmm... Sounds to me like you're missing some pieces to the puzzle. You're serving up dung, my friend, and you need to taste/eat what you're serving. Your paradigm is chalk full of fear, not Love. And you are projecting a character & attributes of God that simply are not so. You are the one convincing others that they cannot do what God has promised to many times to reference that he will do.

It's not even motivating, it's depressing & discouraging. How many people do you personally know who have visited personally with Christ and touched His resurrected body? Anyone? Joseph Smith never even confirmed he had that experience. So is a heavenly vision good enough? Is a voice from Heaven saying you're saved or sealed-up? Did I say anything about touching Christ's resurrected body?

Those who will not believe God's promises canonized in scripture will not have the faith to receive the greater portion of the word available to those who have faith on his word.

Arenera wrote: ↑May 31st, 2018, 10:42 am What does "These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus" Mean?

Let's start with a LDSFF favorite.

Valiant in the Testimony of Jesus - 1982 Benson

Concerning those who will receive the terrestrial, or lesser, kingdom, the Lord said, “These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus; wherefore, they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of our God.” (D&C 76:79; italics added.) Not to be valiant in one’s testimony is a tragedy of eternal consequence. These are members who know this latter-day work is true, but who fail to endure to the end. Some may even hold temple recommends, but do not magnify their callings in the Church. Without valor, they do not take an affirmative stand for the kingdom of God. Some seek the praise, adulation, and honors of men; others attempt to conceal their sins; and a few criticize those who preside over them.

Considering some of the challenges which the Church faces currently, and which it will continue to face in the future, three statements of former Church leaders come to mind.

President Joseph F. Smith said, “There are at least three dangers that threaten the Church within, … they are flattery of prominent men in the world, false educational ideas, and sexual impurity.” (Gospel Doctrine, 5th ed., Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1939, pp. 312–13.) These three dangers are of greater concern today than when they were identified by President Smith.

A second statement was a prophecy by Heber C. Kimball, counselor to President Brigham Young. Speaking to members of the Church who had come to the Salt Lake Valley, he declared:

“To meet the difficulties that are coming, it will be necessary for you to have a knowledge of the truth of this work for yourselves. The difficulties will be of such a character that the man or woman who does not possess this personal knowledge or witness will fall. If you have not got the testimony, live right and call upon the Lord and cease not till you obtain it. If you do not you will not stand. …

“The time will come when no man nor woman will be able to endure on borrowed light. Each will have to be guided by the light within himself. …

“If you don’t have it you will not stand; therefore seek for the testimony of Jesus and cleave to it, that when the trying time comes you may not stumble and fall.” (Orson F. Whitney, Life of Heber C. Kimball, Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1967, p. 450.)

The third statement is from President Harold B. Lee, my boyhood companion and friend, and eleventh President of the Church:

“We have some tight places to go before the Lord is through with this church and the world in this dispensation, which is the last dispensation, which shall usher in the coming of the Lord. The gospel was restored to prepare a people ready to receive him. The power of Satan will increase; we see it in evidence on every hand. There will be inroads within the Church. … We will see those who profess membership but secretly are plotting and trying to lead people not to follow the leadership that the Lord has set up to preside in this church.

“Now the only safety we have as members of this church is to do exactly what the Lord said to the Church in that day when the Church was organized. We must learn to give heed to the words and commandments that the Lord shall give through his prophet, ‘as he receiveth them, walking in all holiness before me; … as if from mine own mouth, in all patience and faith.’ (D&C 21:4–5.) There will be some things that take patience and faith. You may not like what comes from the authority of the Church. … But if you listen to these things, as if from the mouth of the Lord himself, with patience and faith, the promise is that ‘the gates of hell shall not prevail against you; yea, and the Lord God will disperse the powers of darkness from before you, and cause the heavens to shake for your good, and his name’s glory.’ (D&C 21:6.)” (In Conference Report, Oct. 1970, p. 152.)

Now, it seems to me that we have within those three prophetic statements the counsel we need, the counsel that is necessary to stay valiant in our testimony of Jesus and of the work of His church in these troubled times.

One who rationalizes that he or she has a testimony of Jesus Christ but cannot accept direction and counsel from the leadership of His church is in a fundamentally unsound position and is in jeopardy of losing exaltation.

Jesef wrote: ↑June 15th, 2018, 4:27 pm Investigator, apparently you don't know what you're talking about. Some of what I said was purposeful hyperbole. But I'm just going to call your bluff, say baloney, and keep on living, bro. God is good. Until you reach the point where you're conversing with God the same way the prophets you're quoting did, you're just commentating. Your opinion isn't going to change reality. And you are peddling "motivational" fear - "We want to believe in some wholesale salvation where millions of people will be saved in the celestial kingdom, even thought He has told us that FEW will make it there. Those who deny these realities will be sorely disappointed because their unbelief will nowt allow them to develop the faith necessary unto life and salvation through the atonement and mediation of Jesus Christ." The truth is we all want to believe in an actual Benevolent Creator/God/Eternal-Parents who are and will succeed in saving and eventually exalting most of their children.

By the way, try this mystery on for size & see how it feels. D&C 19 gives us a picture that many words don't mean what they say on the surface, like "eternal" or "endless", etc. Many people, including God-fearing (I really don't like that term - I'm using it ironically) Church members, believe that God is going to inflict horrible punishments on unrepentant sinners (if you get too strict in your definition of "unrepentant" you can quickly get discouraged, too) - many of them believe (self-righteously) that God is going to favor them and give them grace but take the hard line of strict justice with everyone else (a form of spiritual superiority complex really) - but consider this: would a fair/just/equitable God inflict infinite punishment for a finite crime/sin? No. Even the most horrible crimes here on earth have finite limits, a finite amount of damage/pain/harm - it's built into the system. Also consider that story from the recent GC in which a Leader told about his favorite BYU professor who was so wise he allowed students to retake tests until they received the grade they wanted or were satisfied with. If life is a test, do you think God is any less wise or merciful than that BYU professor? If we only got one shot at this test, why didn't we wait around and prepare in the premortal realm so hard and so thoroughly that we wouldn't be willing to come down here and take the risk until we were 99% perfect, like Christ? Think about it.

RTaylor wrote: ↑June 16th, 2018, 9:37 pm

Jesef wrote: ↑June 15th, 2018, 4:27 pm Investigator, apparently you don't know what you're talking about. Some of what I said was purposeful hyperbole. But I'm just going to call your bluff, say baloney, and keep on living, bro. God is good. Until you reach the point where you're conversing with God the same way the prophets you're quoting did, you're just commentating. Your opinion isn't going to change reality. And you are peddling "motivational" fear - "We want to believe in some wholesale salvation where millions of people will be saved in the celestial kingdom, even thought He has told us that FEW will make it there. Those who deny these realities will be sorely disappointed because their unbelief will nowt allow them to develop the faith necessary unto life and salvation through the atonement and mediation of Jesus Christ." The truth is we all want to believe in an actual Benevolent Creator/God/Eternal-Parents who are and will succeed in saving and eventually exalting most of their children.

By the way, try this mystery on for size & see how it feels. D&C 19 gives us a picture that many words don't mean what they say on the surface, like "eternal" or "endless", etc. Many people, including God-fearing (I really don't like that term - I'm using it ironically) Church members, believe that God is going to inflict horrible punishments on unrepentant sinners (if you get too strict in your definition of "unrepentant" you can quickly get discouraged, too) - many of them believe (self-righteously) that God is going to favor them and give them grace but take the hard line of strict justice with everyone else (a form of spiritual superiority complex really) - but consider this: would a fair/just/equitable God inflict infinite punishment for a finite crime/sin? No. Even the most horrible crimes here on earth have finite limits, a finite amount of damage/pain/harm - it's built into the system. Also consider that story from the recent GC in which a Leader told about his favorite BYU professor who was so wise he allowed students to retake tests until they received the grade they wanted or were satisfied with. If life is a test, do you think God is any less wise or merciful than that BYU professor? If we only got one shot at this test, why didn't we wait around and prepare in the premortal realm so hard and so thoroughly that we wouldn't be willing to come down here and take the risk until we were 99% perfect, like Christ? Think about it.

I may be wrong but I think you're forgetting about free agency and choice. God's not going to force any specific degree of glory or standards on us. His grace is free but we have to choose him.

Once again maybe I'm wrong but I think that when we've reached the point where no matter how many times we fall, get lost, turned around, confused we will always look for and to the Savior to save us that we will make it.