LDS Freedom Forum

jsk wrote: ↑June 1st, 2018, 12:34 pmCall it what you will, but you are robbing God by not paying your tithing to the Church as required by the Lord himself.

City Creek Reserve, the Mormon church's development arm, unveiled dramatic plans to transform 4.5 acres along Main Street in Mesa next to the temple.

The redevelopment, aimed at reviving Mesa's downtown, includes mostly housing, a mix of rental apartments and townhomes. This comes during a swell of development plans for downtown Mesa, including a 15-story hotel, a $59 million mixed-use development, and the revival of 100,000 square-feet of space in eight buildings down Main Street.

"Downtown's a really difficult area to develop," Mike Hutchinson, executive vice president of the East Valley Partnership, said. "To me, all boats rise when the downtown Mesa area is vibrant. It helps not only the surrounding community of Mesa, but the region."

The plan involves knocking down seven homes in the area, a sticking point for preservationists concerned about the historic neighborhood's character.

Construction will begin this fall, starting with an underground parking garage. The project is expected to be completed by late 2020 or early 2021, according to City Creek. The plans from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints come in conjunction with the two-year closure of the Mormon temple, which will reopen in 2020 after extensive renovations.

Renderings show a line of mixed-use residential buildings from LeSueur Street to Mesa Drive. The development stretches 330 feet, about a third of a block, from Main Street into the neighborhood.

What's included:

240 market rate rental apartments, with 20 studio units, 110 one-bedroom units and 110 two-bedroom units.
12 market-rate rental townhomes, all three-bedroom units averaging 1,300 square-feet.
Retail space on the ground floor of the redevelopment totaling 12,500 square-feet.
Amenities for the apartments and townhomes including a business center, garden areas, outdoor cooking and fire pits and security.
Underground parking to accommodate 450 cars, plus on-street parking. The parking exceeds the amount required under city code for the planned uses, according to City Creek.
An 18,000 square-foot temple visitor's center and family history center on the corner of Main and LeSueur Streets.

Over the next two years, construction will be in full force but will not snarl traffic down Main Street, City Creek Vice President Carl Duke said. Duke is in charge of the Mesa project. He said the company is in discussions with possible tenants for the retail space, but would not say with whom. The goal, with the light rail's proximity in mind, is to bring in "convenience" retailers, like chain or local restaurants.

City Creek spokesman Dale Bills would not say how much the development is estimated to cost, but said the amount of money is "significant." The city will also collect about $950,000 in impact and permit fees, according to a City Creek press release.

Udall Street is the most affected in the neighborhood. Most of the street from Main Street to First Avenue will be shut down for construction.

The church's investment arm, Land Equity Investors, rents out homes in the area. This spring, property managers told 19 renters they would need to leave their homes by July and the church said it would assist those displaced.

Three protesters stood outside Thursday's news conference with signs reading "transparency now" and "public meeting means public access." They said they were Mesa residents worried about the groundswell of development planned for downtown.

Priscilla Crosswhite said she lives in the Glenwood Wilbur Historic District. She doesn't want her neighborhood to be the next center of redevelopment, she said.

"The city is letting special interests come in and change things for profit," she said. "If they can do this to the temple district and they can do this to other historical places, I'm afraid they'll come after my neighborhood, I'm afraid they'll take my home."

Mesa's Historic Preservation Board will likely discuss the plans to demolish the seven houses in its meeting Tuesday, June 5.

Duke, with City Creek, acknowledged that while the redevelopment will result in the demolition of homes in a historic neighborhood, he said the project still tilts toward historic preservation.

While many homes will stay, City Creek is also adding a vital piece in downtown Mesa's redevelopment right along the light rail, he said.

"I think what we're trying to do is balance two conflicting policies that the city has: one is historic preservation and the other is the enormous investment and the character that's provided by transit," Duke said.

jsk wrote: ↑June 1st, 2018, 12:34 pm

Thinker wrote: ↑May 31st, 2018, 9:37 pm

jsk wrote: ↑May 31st, 2018, 2:46 pm Did you not go back and read D&C 20:1 where the Lord says follow the laws of the land? In addition, hasn't the Lord said that He who is commanded in all things is a slothful servant? He wants his servants to grow and typically provides minimal direction and allows them to figure things out.

Jesus said the greatest commandments are to love God by loving others - especially those in need - this is above all laws and prophets.
He trusted us to be wise in how we spent money - but encouraged those who had means, to help the poor.

If tithing collectors claim they are figuring things out and don’t need to be commanded in all things, surely those of us who share our tithes with the poor are as well.

Call it what you will, but you are robbing God by not paying your tithing to the Church as required by the Lord himself. Your heart is in the right place, but it takes an astonishing amount of pride and lack of humility to feel you know better than the Lord and his servants. Your constant repetition of Deuteronomy (Law of Moses) notwithstanding.

Lizzy60 wrote: ↑June 1st, 2018, 2:13 pm

jsk wrote: ↑June 1st, 2018, 12:34 pm

Thinker wrote: ↑May 31st, 2018, 9:37 pm

jsk wrote: ↑May 31st, 2018, 2:46 pm Did you not go back and read D&C 20:1 where the Lord says follow the laws of the land? In addition, hasn't the Lord said that He who is commanded in all things is a slothful servant? He wants his servants to grow and typically provides minimal direction and allows them to figure things out.

Jesus said the greatest commandments are to love God by loving others - especially those in need - this is above all laws and prophets.
He trusted us to be wise in how we spent money - but encouraged those who had means, to help the poor.

If tithing collectors claim they are figuring things out and don’t need to be commanded in all things, surely those of us who share our tithes with the poor are as well.

Call it what you will, but you are robbing God by not paying your tithing to the Church as required by the Lord himself. Your heart is in the right place, but it takes an astonishing amount of pride and lack of humility to feel you know better than the Lord and his servants. Your constant repetition of Deuteronomy (Law of Moses) notwithstanding.

You accuse Thinker of robbing God, but you really don't have any way of knowing what God has specifically told her to do, or anyone else for that matter. Personal revelation. That means God may tell you one thing, and someone else something different. God told me several years ago to give everything I could spare, including my tithes and fast offerings, directly to a family in great need. I am doing my best to obey Him.

Thinker wrote: ↑June 1st, 2018, 2:08 pm

jsk wrote: ↑June 1st, 2018, 12:34 pmCall it what you will, but you are robbing God by not paying your tithing to the Church as required by the Lord himself.

Note how you are having another god - the church - before God. You are equating the church with God.

I don’t put the church before God and I am punished for that. I follow Christ and his greatest commandments to love and care for those in need “which hang all the law and the prophets” over the church. You and others in the church can put me down for that all you want - I care more what God thinks than what you or the church thinks. And after studing, thinking and praying, I have felt the Spirit that sharing my tithes with those in need is sharing it with God.

“Inasmuch as ye have done it unto the least of these, ye have done it into me.”
“He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.”

Lizzy60 wrote: ↑June 1st, 2018, 3:25 pm Perhaps unlikely, but it's what God told me. At the time I had been serving as a temple ordinance worker, so I was in the temple for 12 hours or more per week, for 12 years. My temple is an hours drive, so that another 4 hours on the road each week. Don't presume to lecture me about temple blessings. It was in the temple that I learned how to ask God, and get an answer, and know for sure that it came from Him. His ways are not our ways.

So then it has to decide what to do with the annual surplus it is building up. One big decision is, do you spend it all on programs and charitable efforts, or do you keep it in reserve based on expected growth and demographic trends? We know that member growth in North America, which pays the vast majority of the church’s tithing income, is slowing, whereas growth in poorer areas of the world, such as South America and Africa, is still strong; and those areas of the world are net users of tithing funds as opposed to suppliers. If you project these trends out into the future (which I’m sure church actuaries and financial wizards regularly do), at some point there will no longer be an annual surplus and, like the Social Security Trust Fund, the church will have to begin drawing on the reserve it has built up over the years to make up for the deficits.

Thinker wrote: ↑June 1st, 2018, 5:11 pm Maybe the church foresaw people finding out about how finances are handled way up top, and made more financial investments to support themselves without the members.

But what is a king without subjects?
What is a leader without people to be led?
Proverbs 14:28:
A large population is a king's glory, but without subjects a prince is ruined.

If tithes were distributed to those in need, as commanded in Deut. 14:28-29 and by Christ, and there was transparency showing it, members on the giving and receiving end would help and benefit.

Lizzy60 wrote: ↑June 1st, 2018, 3:25 pm Perhaps unlikely, but it's what God told me. At the time I had been serving as a temple ordinance worker, so I was in the temple for 12 hours or more per week, for 12 years. My temple is an hours drive, so that another 4 hours on the road each week. Don't presume to lecture me about temple blessings. It was in the temple that I learned how to ask God, and get an answer, and know for sure that it came from Him. His ways are not our ways.

gardener4life wrote: ↑May 31st, 2018, 10:18 pm I think part of your comment is very skewed.

For example, you call them 'tithing collectors' as if they are some kind of beat cop going around muscling people into paying up like a tax collector. In your heart, you are already departed from the Gospel if you think this way. It's not a realistic view.

The simple and beautiful truth is that the Plan of Salvation lets us help 'build' with the Lord and contribute with him to erect a future for everyone. He lets us help for our benefit, not his.To build you have to contribute, or sacrifice, or put in some effort. We're not paying tithing...we're BUILDING with our tithes and efforts all together. We all want to have a part of something like a great future together. And to have a future you have to build it. It needs a foundation to rest on, that we're putting up.

We all want to be in God's kingdom when we die and after this life. In other words; the Celestial Kingdom. We'll know if we belong there. When you go in, you'll be standing next to a whole bunch of people that gave their lives as martyrs, or sacrifice a lot, or bled, sweat, and cried through effort to get there. And if you haven't done anything you won't feel you belong there. And you'll feel out of place. You'll want to be in a lower kingdom instead, which is really sad...just so you can fit in and be around people like yourself.

So people that don't put in effort in wanting to be with Jesus, won't end up being near him. It's a bit sad and I'm not saying I'll stop them. But their guilt and lack of faith will stop themselves. Mostly we'll know if we feel good in front of God at the judgement. I think most of the judging will be us judging ourselves on if we know we've given enough to be with him.

Thinker wrote: ↑June 2nd, 2018, 10:09 am This is the church of JESUS CHRIST.

Jesus Christ said that the 2 greatest commandments were to:

1) Love God, and as we love others we love God.
“Inasmuch as ye have done it unto the least of these, ye have done it into me.”
“He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.”
...and
2) “Love thy neighbor as thyself. On these 2 commandments hang all the law and the prophets.”

So, IE if a prophet asks you to give tithes to them, (who don’t help the poor with tithes) before helping your own family or those in need, it can be dismissed because the greater law which takes precedence is to help those in need. The lower law (in Deut. 14:28-29) specified an amount of 1/3 tithing that also served as taxes. Jesus gave a higher law that asked to give and do all we can, while caring for our own.

84: 44 For you shall live by every word that proceedeth forth from the mouth of God...47 And every one that hearkeneth to the voice of the Spirit cometh unto God, even the Father.

84: 49 And the whole world lieth in sin, and groaneth under darkness and under the bondage of sin. And by this you may know they are under the bondage of sin, because they come not unto me. For whoso cometh not unto me is under the bondage of sin. And whoso receiveth not my voice is not acquainted with my voice, and is not of me. And by this you may know the righteous from the wicked

2 Ne 32: 3 Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do.Wherefore, now after I have spoken these words, if ye cannot understand them it will be because ye ask not, neither do ye knock; wherefore, ye are not brought into the light, but must perish in the dark. For behold, again I say unto you that if ye will enter in by the way, and receive the Holy Ghost, it will show unto you all things what ye should do. Behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and there will be no more doctrine given until after he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh. And when he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, the things which he shall say unto you shall ye observe to do.

investigator wrote: ↑June 3rd, 2018, 10:11 am The gospel teaches us this...

84: 44 For you shall live by every word that proceedeth forth from the mouth of God...47 And every one that hearkeneth to the voice of the Spirit cometh unto God, even the Father.

We are to live by what God tells us to do. We have to live by every word that comes from His mouth to us. No intermediary. Unless we learn to do this the Lord considers us to be wicked.

84: 49 And the whole world lieth in sin, and groaneth under darkness and under the bondage of sin. And by this you may know they are under the bondage of sin, because they come not unto me. For whoso cometh not unto me is under the bondage of sin. And whoso receiveth not my voice is not acquainted with my voice, and is not of me. And by this you may know the righteous from the wicked

Did you catch that? If you are not antiquated with and follow His voice, the Lord considers you wicked.

It is also the message of the temple.... Recognize and receive true messengers; be true and faithful in all things; Desire further light and knowledge by conversing with the Lord through the veil; After conversing with the Lord through the veil and doing what He tells you to do; Desire to enter into His presence; Let him/her enter. This is how you come unto Christ. It is the real deal.

The same pattern is taught in taught in the Book of Mormon...

2 Ne 32: 3 Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do.Wherefore, now after I have spoken these words, if ye cannot understand them it will be because ye ask not, neither do ye knock; wherefore, ye are not brought into the light, but must perish in the dark. For behold, again I say unto you that if ye will enter in by the way, and receive the Holy Ghost, it will show unto you all things what ye should do. Behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and there will be no more doctrine given until after he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh. And when he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, the things which he shall say unto you shall ye observe to do.

Righteousness is obeying what God tells you to do, not man. There are plenty of examples in the scriptures where righteous men did what God told them to do which went against virtue or what the "church" would have them do. I.E.... Nephi slayed Laban; Abraham slayed Issac; Isaiah preached naked for three years; Joseph Smith married (was sealed to (a different discussion)) many women...

What sacrifice will it be that you are called to make? ... " we should covenant to sacrifice all that we possess, even our own lives if necessary, in sustaining and defending the Kingdom of God".

It may be your standing in the church if the Lord asks you to give you tithes to the poor and not a institution which has 32 billion dollars in the stock market. Are you willing to make that sacrifice or will you say "the Lord would never require that of me/you". What will the Lord require of you? What are you willing to give up for Him?

Lizzy60 wrote: ↑June 3rd, 2018, 10:18 am Amen!!! ^^^^^^^^^^ This was my experience. I asked the Lord how I should help a family that He had led me to. I received a clear and direct answer which I recognized as His voice. I verified it through further prayer, until I was sure it was from Him.

So, some of you believe I should follow men, and the traditions of the church, and kick God Himself to the curb. No way!

By the way, when this occurred, I didn't know anything about City Creek, stock market investments, or anything else about how the church spends tithes and offerings. It was nowhere on my radar. This was not a confirmation-bias answer to prayer. It was an unexpected and very clear answer to my sincere prayer.

Thinker wrote: ↑June 5th, 2018, 8:51 am Mark,
Financially, and in other ways, prioritizing those in need is based on Jesus Christ’s greatest commandments. If you think those have been outdated and remodeled, maybe it’s not really Jesus Christ who is your leader.

Nobody’s perfect. We all make mistakes. That’s why it’s best not to follow another human being as if they are infallible. Still take whatever good from each person - and there is a lot of good offered in our church!

Thinker wrote: ↑June 5th, 2018, 8:51 am Mark,
Financially, and in other ways, prioritizing those in need is based on Jesus Christ’s greatest commandments. If you think those have been outdated and remodeled, maybe it’s not really Jesus Christ who is your leader.

Nobody’s perfect. We all make mistakes. That’s why it’s best not to follow another human being as if they are infallible. Still take whatever good from each person - and there is a lot of good offered in our church!

Thinker wrote: ↑June 5th, 2018, 8:51 am Mark,
Financially, and in other ways, prioritizing those in need is based on Jesus Christ’s greatest commandments. If you think those have been outdated and remodeled, maybe it’s not really Jesus Christ who is your leader.