Church Finances

[shadow]

Disclaimer: I'm saying the following to make a point, not to make any accusations about any institution, organization, etc.

If you know that an organization that you are contributing money to is mismanaging the funds and if you continue to contribute you will be partially responsible for that mismanagement.

Or worse, if you know that an organization is using funds for immoral activities and if you continue to contribute, you will be partially responsible for the advancement of these immoral activities.

If you suspect that an organization is using money incorrectly then you do have a moral obligation to make sure that things are "kosher".

My point is that we are responsible for the money or the resources that we contribute and whether that money is being used in a good or in an evil way. We can't just give and then not worry about it or act like it isn't our problem what is done with the money. It is our problem and we are responsible for making sure that we aren't contributing to the advancement of wickedness.

-Finrock

That's true unless God tells you to contribute to the organization. If God tells you to contribute to a corrupt organization then God will be the one who is complicit. Sometimes we humans think we've got things figured out when in fact we are sometimes clueless. For example- God revealed the use of tithing funds to Joseph Smith in a revelation. Some people think tithing should be used for other things so they not only don't pay tithing but they criticize the church. That's to their detriment on both accounts. And if those who are called to be the stewards of the tithing funds misuse it- that's to their detriment. However, the command from God is that we pay tithing regardless. He'll deal with anyone who misuses the funds. That's His call, not ours. I have been given a testimony of those leaders of the church who've been called to these positions. I sustain them as such.

[Finrock]

Disclaimer: I'm saying the following to make a point, not to make any accusations about any institution, organization, etc.

If you know that an organization that you are contributing money to is mismanaging the funds and if you continue to contribute you will be partially responsible for that mismanagement.

Or worse, if you know that an organization is using funds for immoral activities and if you continue to contribute, you will be partially responsible for the advancement of these immoral activities.

If you suspect that an organization is using money incorrectly then you do have a moral obligation to make sure that things are "kosher".

My point is that we are responsible for the money or the resources that we contribute and whether that money is being used in a good or in an evil way. We can't just give and then not worry about it or act like it isn't our problem what is done with the money. It is our problem and we are responsible for making sure that we aren't contributing to the advancement of wickedness.

-Finrock

That's true unless God tells you to contribute to the organization. If God tells you to contribute to a corrupt organization then God will be the one who is complicit. Sometimes we humans think we've got things figured out when in fact we are sometimes clueless. For example- God revealed the use of tithing funds to Joseph Smith in a revelation. Some people think tithing should be used for other things so they not only don't pay tithing but they criticize the church. That's to their detriment on both accounts. And if those who are called to be the stewards of the tithing funds misuse it- that's to their detriment. However, the command from God is that we pay tithing regardless. He'll deal with anyone who misuses the funds. That's His call, not ours. I have been given a testimony of those leaders of the church who've been called to these positions. I sustain them as such.

God isn't evil and doesn't do evil things, ever. People rationalize all of the time to excuse their immoral or evil behavior even to the point of blaming God for it or pretending like He sanctioned it.

-Finrock

[shadow]

Disclaimer: I'm saying the following to make a point, not to make any accusations about any institution, organization, etc.

If you know that an organization that you are contributing money to is mismanaging the funds and if you continue to contribute you will be partially responsible for that mismanagement.

Or worse, if you know that an organization is using funds for immoral activities and if you continue to contribute, you will be partially responsible for the advancement of these immoral activities.

If you suspect that an organization is using money incorrectly then you do have a moral obligation to make sure that things are "kosher".

My point is that we are responsible for the money or the resources that we contribute and whether that money is being used in a good or in an evil way. We can't just give and then not worry about it or act like it isn't our problem what is done with the money. It is our problem and we are responsible for making sure that we aren't contributing to the advancement of wickedness.

-Finrock

That's true unless God tells you to contribute to the organization. If God tells you to contribute to a corrupt organization then God will be the one who is complicit. Sometimes we humans think we've got things figured out when in fact we are sometimes clueless. For example- God revealed the use of tithing funds to Joseph Smith in a revelation. Some people think tithing should be used for other things so they not only don't pay tithing but they criticize the church. That's to their detriment on both accounts. And if those who are called to be the stewards of the tithing funds misuse it- that's to their detriment. However, the command from God is that we pay tithing regardless. He'll deal with anyone who misuses the funds. That's His call, not ours. I have been given a testimony of those leaders of the church who've been called to these positions. I sustain them as such.

God isn't evil and doesn't do evil things, ever. People rationalize all of the time to excuse their immoral or evil behavior even to the point of blaming God for it or pretending like He sanctioned it.

-Finrock

God commands us to pay tithing. People rationalize that they're excluded from the commandment because they don't have a say how tithing is to be used or they don't agree how it's being used. God never said we get to decide how tithing funds are used, He only commanded us to pay tithing. He called others to decide the disposition of tithing funds.

[jsk]

So what is the point of these posts? That the First Presidency and 12 Apostles are corrupt? Give me a break already! I have infinitely more faith that those men are led by the Lord concerning the affairs of his Kingdom than I do in some faithless Monday Morning Quarterbacks. And if they are wrong in some things they can take it up with the Lord. My job is to pay my tithing and fast offering and beyond that I really don't care...it isn't my stewardship.

Just wondering if we are a church masquerading as a corporation or a corporation masquerading as a church? So you have no concern whatsoever if a $30 billion+ corporation exhibits no financial transparency to the very members who are expected to give 10% of their income to it who are then asked to give an accounting of those donations during tithing settlement at the end of the year? Matthew 6:24 my friend. And D&C 26.

No...no concern whatsoever. The Church has to exist as a Corporate entity...I have no issue with the Church having financial interests, making money or having real estate holdings. I believe that is consistent with the Parable of the Talents. I don't see the Church or its leaders serving Mammon. And I don't see how the Law of Common Consent applies here. I don't think I have any say about how the Church spends its money...that is within the purview and under the Stewardship of the General Authorities. As I've said before...I trust them implicitly and if there are issues or malfeasance, I'm content to leave that to the Lord to sort out.

[Col. Flagg]

The Church has to exist as a Corporate entity...I have no issue with the Church having financial interests, making money or having real estate holdings.

Please provide a scripture or quote from God, our Savior or Joseph Smith indicating as much. Good luck.

[jsk]

The Church has to exist as a Corporate entity...I have no issue with the Church having financial interests, making money or having real estate holdings.

Please provide a scripture or quote from God, our Savior or Joseph Smith indicating as much. Good luck.


By incorporating, the Church is able to avoid many different types of legal liabilities. By doing so, the Church has taken appropriate measures to protect its resources. Why would a quote from Heavenly Father, the Savior or Joseph Smith be necessary?

But in any event...see D&C 20:1, which references establishment of the Church in accordance with applicable temporal law.

This is a non-issue but I guess a person can twist up anything.

[Col. Flagg]

The Church has to exist as a Corporate entity...I have no issue with the Church having financial interests, making money or having real estate holdings.
By incorporating, the Church is able to avoid many different types of legal liabilities. By doing so, the Church has taken appropriate measures to protect its resources. Why would a quote from Heavenly Father, the Savior or Joseph Smith be necessary?

Um, maybe because this is supposed to be a church and gospel of revelation, guided by revelation and operated by revelation? If there is no revelation from God, our Savior or from Joseph Smith to set up a corporation, why did it happen?

[jsk]

Did you not go back and read D&C 20:1 where the Lord says follow the laws of the land? In addition, hasn't the Lord said that He who is commanded in all things is a slothful servant? He wants his servants to grow and typically provides minimal direction and allows them to figure things out.

Here is a short write up that explains why a church of our size would be extremely unwise not to incorporate.

http://enrichmentjournal.ag.org/201002/ ... rating.cfm

[Col. Flagg]

Did you not go back and read D&C 20:1 where the Lord says follow the laws of the land? In addition, hasn't the Lord said that He who is commanded in all things is a slothful servant? He wants his servants to grow and typically provides minimal direction and allows them to figure things out.

Here is a short write up that explains why a church of our size would be extremely unwise not to incorporate.

http://enrichmentjournal.ag.org/201002/ ... rating.cfm

How do you reconcile that with this?

Matthew 6:24: No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

[Lizzy60]

Matthew 25:31-46

Are there members of the Church who are hungry, even malnourished? Are there members who need medical care, and can't pay for it? Are there bishops who desire to help those in their stewardship, but none of the members have any excess to share, so they all remain in need, and in poverty? Who will be trying to hide their riches at the last day, when they realize that children suffered who could have been fed and clothed, while $$$$ sat in investments, and many said "all is well in Zion, yea, Zion prospers."

[Thinker]

Did you not go back and read D&C 20:1 where the Lord says follow the laws of the land? In addition, hasn't the Lord said that He who is commanded in all things is a slothful servant? He wants his servants to grow and typically provides minimal direction and allows them to figure things out.

Jesus said the greatest commandments are to love God by loving others - especially those in need - this is above all laws and prophets.
He trusted us to be wise in how we spent money - but encouraged those who had means, to help the poor.

If tithing collectors claim they are figuring things out and don’t need to be commanded in all things, surely those of us who share our tithes with the poor are as well.

[gardener4life]

I think part of your comment is very skewed.

For example, you call them 'tithing collectors' as if they are some kind of beat cop going around muscling people into paying up like a tax collector. In your heart, you are already departed from the Gospel if you think this way. It's not a realistic view.

The simple and beautiful truth is that the Plan of Salvation lets us help 'build' with the Lord and contribute with him to erect a future for everyone. He lets us help for our benefit, not his.To build you have to contribute, or sacrifice, or put in some effort. We're not paying tithing...we're BUILDING with our tithes and efforts all together. We all want to have a part of something like a great future together. And to have a future you have to build it. It needs a foundation to rest on, that we're putting up.

We all want to be in God's kingdom when we die and after this life. In other words; the Celestial Kingdom. We'll know if we belong there. When you go in, you'll be standing next to a whole bunch of people that gave their lives as martyrs, or sacrifice a lot, or bled, sweat, and cried through effort to get there. And if you haven't done anything you won't feel you belong there. And you'll feel out of place. You'll want to be in a lower kingdom instead, which is really sad...just so you can fit in and be around people like yourself.

So people that don't put in effort in wanting to be with Jesus, won't end up being near him. It's a bit sad and I'm not saying I'll stop them. But their guilt and lack of faith will stop themselves. Mostly we'll know if we feel good in front of God at the judgement. I think most of the judging will be us judging ourselves on if we know we've given enough to be with him.

[Lizzy60]

1 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

[Lizzy60]

The LDS Church has vast sums of money, invested and saved up for a rainy day, while LDS children around the world go to bed every night HUNGRY.

Don't tell me about the beautiful shops and condos that make Temple Square, and now the Mesa Temple, more tourist-worthy.
I have it from the source that God Himself considers this a "whoredom". Church members are malnourished, while the church builds Babylon around the temples. And children are starving, every day, all around the world.

[sushi_chef]

ummmmm, if thats the case then wonders if one of the most effective solutions for church financial policy change would be that scenario... the sooner the better...
whats that??
hint :

[drtanner]

Those who condemn the way the church invests and gives to the poor and needy do not understand a few things.

#1The principle of Self Reliance: (teaching people to fish) A perfect case study is the American Indians and what happens when you give money without teaching principles. "Even when it is not a economic necessity WORK is a spiritual necessity. Elder Maxwell" The church has a initiative "The Self Reliance Initiative" and its purpose is to eliminate poverty across the world. It works. It will continue to work at a faster rate as you understand and get involved in the effort.

#2 Cash flow: The worse things you can do is give at a faster rate than you have assets producing income. Many loose businesses over this mis-understanding. Those who would simply give with no notion to cash flow would drain the church of all finances and then loose all power to contribute and bless lives. Millions more hungry and poor would come to their doorstep and they would have to say sorry we have nothing left we gave it all away. The men who lead this church do an amazing job and understand the importance of this balance in order to bless the lives of the poor, needy, and hungry.

#3 The purpose of setting up congregations is to seek out the poor and needy. The instruction for bishops is to not just give to those who ask but to SEEK! those who need help. If you truly understand the structure and all of the council given to those who have the keys over temporal welfare and its distribution you quickly learn that a bishop has the ability to bless the lives of ALL of the hungry and poor within his stewardship. Investing in congregations and temples empowers this process and will do more good in places like Africa then any other method of giving.

#4 Mosiah 4:26-27

26 And now, for the sake of these things which I have spoken unto you—that is, for the sake of retaining a remission of your sins from day to day, that ye may walk guiltless before God—I would that ye should impart of your substance to the poor, every man according to that which he hath, such as feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the sick and administering to their relief, both spiritually and temporally, according to their wants.

27 And see that all these things are done in wisdom and order; for it is not requisite that a man should run faster than he has strength. And again, it is expedient that he should be diligent, that thereby he might win the prize; therefore, all things must be done in order.

The leaders of the church have there heart in the right place when it comes to temporal welfare and helping people across the world. The are doing things in wisdom and order. There eye is single to the glory of God. There motive is charity and love. Do they always make perfect decisions, no. BUT the are using every ounce of talent, wisdom, experience, inspiration, and skillset they have been blessed with and developed to try and bless this world spiritually and temporally.

[jsk]

Did you not go back and read D&C 20:1 where the Lord says follow the laws of the land? In addition, hasn't the Lord said that He who is commanded in all things is a slothful servant? He wants his servants to grow and typically provides minimal direction and allows them to figure things out.

Here is a short write up that explains why a church of our size would be extremely unwise not to incorporate.

http://enrichmentjournal.ag.org/201002/ ... rating.cfm

How do you reconcile that with this?

Matthew 6:24: No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

I'm lost...who is serving two masters and in what way? We live in a fallen world...the Church exists and has to operate in a fallen world. I mean no disrespect, but your view of the world and how things are doesn't appear to be grounded in reality.

In any event, I don't see this conflict in the senior leadership concerning serving God or Mammon as you apparently do.

Have a little faith...I have no doubt the business affairs of the Church are being conducted for a wise purpose. And it isn't your stewardship anyways.

[Thinker]

ummmmm, if thats the case then wonders if one of the most effective solutions for church financial policy change would be that scenario... the sooner the better...
whats that??
hint :

SuchiChef,
I had to look that up for the word based on your clips: inconceivable.
I’m not sure if this was your point or not, but I do know based on experience that we can only see what we’re willing and open to see. It points to the human tendency toward confirmation bias - looking only for evidence that supports our preconceived ideas. I’m as guilty of this as anyone - though I’m trying to realize it more.

“An egotist will never get anywhere in this world because he thinks he’s already there.” -MJ Ashton

Much of this argument may be rooted in defending one’s parents/authorities.
Those jokes like, “Yo Mama is so...”
“No, she’s not!”
It’s not obvious but I think the underlying psychology is, “Your authority is not perfect & this is why.”
“No! Impossible!” But really it’s not impossible, just inconceivable.

[Mark]

The LDS Church has vast sums of money, invested and saved up for a rainy day, while LDS children around the world go to bed every night HUNGRY.

Don't tell me about the beautiful shops and condos that make Temple Square, and now the Mesa Temple, more tourist-worthy.
I have it from the source that God Himself considers this a "whoredom". Church members are malnourished, while the church builds Babylon around the temples. And children are starving, every day, all around the world.

So God has condemned the stewards of the LDS church for participating in "whoredoms" according to your "source"? Okay then at least we all know where you stand Lizzy. Now what was that Joseph Smith said about the eagerness to accuse the Brethren?

[Gage]

The LDS Church has vast sums of money, invested and saved up for a rainy day, while LDS children around the world go to bed every night HUNGRY.

Don't tell me about the beautiful shops and condos that make Temple Square, and now the Mesa Temple, more tourist-worthy.
I have it from the source that God Himself considers this a "whoredom". Church members are malnourished, while the church builds Babylon around the temples. And children are starving, every day, all around the world.

The Church gives billions to charity

[sushi_chef]

urrrr..., ummm... probably true cant teach new tricks to oldy sushi_....
anyhow sushi_s tentative conclusive conclusion beta would be : mammon won once again.

for its written :

"53 And the kingdom of God shall be taken from them, and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof; (meaning the Gentiles.)

54 Wherefore, on whomsoever this stone shall fall, it shall grind him to powder.

55 And when the Lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, he will destroy those miserable, wicked men, and will let again his vineyard unto other husbandmen, even in the last days, who shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

56 And then understood they the parable which he spake unto them, that the Gentiles should be destroyed also, when the Lord should descend out of heaven to reign in his vineyard, which is the earth and the inhabitants thereof.
"
(jst matthew 21)

must see it, basically gentiles church, isnt it?!.... dc 109 js prayer temple dedicatory.

[jsk]

The LDS Church has vast sums of money, invested and saved up for a rainy day, while LDS children around the world go to bed every night HUNGRY.

Don't tell me about the beautiful shops and condos that make Temple Square, and now the Mesa Temple, more tourist-worthy.
I have it from the source that God Himself considers this a "whoredom". Church members are malnourished, while the church builds Babylon around the temples. And children are starving, every day, all around the world.

The world is large and I'm sure there are LDS children somewhere who are suffering as you describe. But I doubt it is a systemic problem, unless you have evidence to the contrary. Certainly the Presidents of the Church have always said they would not permit members to starve.

[Gage]

The LDS Church has vast sums of money, invested and saved up for a rainy day, while LDS children around the world go to bed every night HUNGRY.

Don't tell me about the beautiful shops and condos that make Temple Square, and now the Mesa Temple, more tourist-worthy.
I have it from the source that God Himself considers this a "whoredom". Church members are malnourished, while the church builds Babylon around the temples. And children are starving, every day, all around the world.

The world is large and I'm sure there are LDS children somewhere who are suffering as you describe. But I doubt it is a systemic problem, unless you have evidence to the contrary. Certainly the Presidents of the Church have always said they would not permit members to starve.

How do you think they feed the poor? With what money? Since tithing money goes towards running the Church, where do you think the money made from the shops, malls and condos go towards, a vacation home for the Prophet? There is a proper order to things that some do not understand

[jsk]

Did you not go back and read D&C 20:1 where the Lord says follow the laws of the land? In addition, hasn't the Lord said that He who is commanded in all things is a slothful servant? He wants his servants to grow and typically provides minimal direction and allows them to figure things out.

Jesus said the greatest commandments are to love God by loving others - especially those in need - this is above all laws and prophets.
He trusted us to be wise in how we spent money - but encouraged those who had means, to help the poor.

If tithing collectors claim they are figuring things out and don’t need to be commanded in all things, surely those of us who share our tithes with the poor are as well.

Call it what you will, but you are robbing God by not paying your tithing to the Church as required by the Lord himself. Your heart is in the right place, but it takes an astonishing amount of pride and lack of humility to feel you know better than the Lord and his servants. Your constant repetition of Deuteronomy (Law of Moses) notwithstanding.

[Col. Flagg]

The LDS Church has vast sums of money, invested and saved up for a rainy day, while LDS children around the world go to bed every night HUNGRY.

Don't tell me about the beautiful shops and condos that make Temple Square, and now the Mesa Temple, more tourist-worthy.
I have it from the source that God Himself considers this a "whoredom". Church members are malnourished, while the church builds Babylon around the temples. And children are starving, every day, all around the world.

The Church gives billions to charity

The church gave $1.5 billion in humanitarian aid from 1985 to 2010 (an average of $60 million per year for 25 years)... it dropped 2-3 times that on a lavish, ritzy mall and million dollar condos in 3 years (2008 to 2011).