LDS Freedom Forum

shadow wrote: ↑June 13th, 2018, 12:44 pm

Col. Flagg wrote: ↑June 13th, 2018, 8:31 am So the Lord expects church leaders to amass untold sums of wealth...

Absodamlutely. Did you even read my prior response to you?? Why not respond to it?

Because there is a HUGE difference in the Lord's wealth and Babylonian wealth.

Mark wrote: ↑June 13th, 2018, 12:33 pm

Col. Flagg wrote: ↑June 13th, 2018, 12:07 pm

natasha wrote: ↑June 13th, 2018, 10:09 am Over my lifetime and as a member of the Church, I have noticed how the Church always seems to be "ahead of the game." With the decline in the birthrate all over the U.S., and in the Church, I am just wondering if the Brethren are anticipating a decline in tithing paying members and ARE "saving up" for a rainy day as well as obeying the commands the Lord has given regarding end times and being able to purchase land for the New Jerusalem, not to even mention the continuing of temple building, etc. Gosh, maybe they really are inspired.

Let me share a little story with you. Back in January, 2001, I was laid off from my job and was unemployed for several months. When I finally landed a new job, it was at a significantly reduced salary with no benefits. Roughly 4 weeks after I had found new employment, I got a letter in the mail one day… it was from Beneficial Life (a church owned company at the time). I opened it up and it was a loan solicitation for $5,000 at an interest rate of 23.99%. The church that I so loved and was devoted to to which I was paying 10% of my income had somehow obtained information on me and was preying on my misfortune by offering money at usurious interest rates. Yep, our church was in the loan sharking business. I wept when I discovered that Beneficial Life was owned and operated by the church. When I learned that Beneficial Life had gone bankrupt and was no longer years ago, I didn’t weep. The monthly payment on that loan would have been $125 with monthly interest at $100. Was that ‘inspired’ by the Lord?

You obviously know nothing about the loan sharking business. I will send Vito over to explain how money is loaned thru a "legit" loan shark and what interest is going to be charged to you. 20% per WEEK should be about right. I hope you have some spare parts to replace the ones they will remove when you don't pay on time. You will be Coveting that Beneficial loan with all your heart after they get done with rearranging your sorry complaining pie hole.

You're absolutely right and I'm glad I know nothing about the loan sharking business. Mark, I don't need anyone to explain to me what constitutes usury... the Lord already has in scripture.

shadow wrote: ↑June 13th, 2018, 12:44 pm

Col. Flagg wrote: ↑June 13th, 2018, 8:31 am So the Lord expects church leaders to amass untold sums of wealth...

Absodamlutely. Did you even read my prior response to you?? Why not respond to it?

Maybe because it's nonsense, and directly contradicts the Lord's sermons on the mount and at bountiful. And perhaps some of the "Lord's" revelations in the D&C aren't really His. Perhaps some are of the devil and some of man. Who can discern? Perhaps that is the test. Instead of swallowing everything whole, which puts a person in pretty odd positions to defend and apologize for every obviously nonsensical, we ought to consult our little regulators inside, you know, the ones that throw up the BS flag now and again, as well as the Lord's direct teachings in the sermons, repeated three times in scripture.

Mark, you still haven't answered my earlier question... maybe you won't? Wonder why?

Col. Flagg wrote: ↑June 13th, 2018, 1:30 pm Mark, you still haven't answered my earlier question... maybe you won't? Wonder why?

I am baaaaaack. I don’t really care what the business arm of the church decides to buy. If they buy theaters they can show more uplifting and rewarding movies. Good on em. Great missionary opportunity. If they buy sports teams I hope they cut all those outrageous salaries of the spoiled rich brats and make them stop acting like premadonas. The Lord knows the beginning from the end. He is in charge of his church. Mans ways are not his ways. I hope you will come to understand that His church will be led properly by inspired servants who live up to their stewardship duties. If they didn’t they would be replaced by those who would. Have some faith!

Confirmation bias is like a warm, comfy security blankey - or is that the Holy Ghost? I get confused. Either one.

Mark wrote: ↑June 13th, 2018, 4:39 pm

Col. Flagg wrote: ↑June 13th, 2018, 1:30 pm Mark, you still haven't answered my earlier question... maybe you won't? Wonder why?

I am baaaaaack. I don’t really care what the business arm of the church decides to buy. If they buy theaters they can show more uplifting and rewarding movies. Good on em. Great missionary opportunity. If they buy sports teams I hope they cut all those outrageous salaries of the spoiled rich brats and make them stop acting like premadonas. The Lord knows the beginning from the end. He is in charge of his church. Mans ways are not his ways. I hope you will come to understand that His church will be led properly by inspired servants who live up to their stewardship duties. If they didn’t they would be replaced by those who would. Have some faith!

Mark,

Do you think your view represents someone with faith? You are not describing faith. Your post has nothing to do with faith. You aren't a better person (not worse either) and you don't represent a more faithful member. Again these impression you are getting (i.e., have some faith) probably are important to you and your life.

-Finrock

Mark wrote: ↑June 13th, 2018, 4:39 pm

Col. Flagg wrote: ↑June 13th, 2018, 1:30 pm Mark, you still haven't answered my earlier question... maybe you won't? Wonder why?

I am baaaaaack. I don’t really care what the business arm of the church decides to buy. If they buy theaters they can show more uplifting and rewarding movies. Good on em. Great missionary opportunity. If they buy sports teams I hope they cut all those outrageous salaries of the spoiled rich brats and make them stop acting like premadonas. The Lord knows the beginning from the end. He is in charge of his church. Mans ways are not his ways. I hope you will come to understand that His church will be led properly by inspired servants who live up to their stewardship duties. If they didn’t they would be replaced by those who would. Have some faith!

Your mentality is exactly how and why our church is playing with $32 billion in the stock market. I found the rest of your post amusing and on target, especially about pro athletes. It's funny... I was going to tell you God's ways are not man's ways.

Col. Flagg wrote: ↑June 14th, 2018, 9:51 am

Mark wrote: ↑June 13th, 2018, 4:39 pm

Col. Flagg wrote: ↑June 13th, 2018, 1:30 pm Mark, you still haven't answered my earlier question... maybe you won't? Wonder why?

I am baaaaaack. I don’t really care what the business arm of the church decides to buy. If they buy theaters they can show more uplifting and rewarding movies. Good on em. Great missionary opportunity. If they buy sports teams I hope they cut all those outrageous salaries of the spoiled rich brats and make them stop acting like premadonas. The Lord knows the beginning from the end. He is in charge of his church. Mans ways are not his ways. I hope you will come to understand that His church will be led properly by inspired servants who live up to their stewardship duties. If they didn’t they would be replaced by those who would. Have some faith!

Your mentality is exactly how and why our church is playing with $32 billion in the stock market. I found the rest of your post amusing and on target, especially about pro athletes. It's funny... I was going to tell you God's ways are not man's ways.

I'm curious Col. Flagg, now that the church has come out and said tithing funds are used for all these billion $ projects and investments, has anyone on this forum apologized to you? Every time you suggested tithing was being used you were met with firm opposition. Any apologies?

I'd rather the church be broke giving everything away than be wealthy. It use to impress me the amount of wealth the church has. Now it just makes me sad. The church could truly change the world if they applied the principles of Zion.

Christian Ministries health sharing is more Zion like than anything I have seen in the church.

SempiternalHarbinger wrote: ↑June 14th, 2018, 10:17 amI'm curious Col. Flagg, now that the church has come out and said tithing funds are used for all these billion $ projects and investments, has anyone on this forum apologized to you? Every time you suggested tithing was being used you were met with firm opposition. Any apologies?

No, but it's not necessary really, most of them simply thought they were defending a church that they had held in high esteem their whole life as perfect, infallible and incapable of wrong-doing under any circumstances (especially those at the top) as well having my own spiritual welfare in mind (attempting to persuade me to stop with what they perceived as being dangerous spiritually) - I've already forgiven the attacks - Christ taught us to forgive and forget, right? I just wish members of the church would listen to their conscience more instead of relying upon what they were told or taught growing up and that's how it is, end of story and to question or challenge anything is akin to apostasy and all that other nonsense. This is especially true with regard to the polygamy issue.

I'm afraid I missed the admission though - where and when did the church admit to using tithing to invest and for capital projects?

Where has the Church admitted this, SH & CF? Any links? Thanks. Was it Bednar or Hinckley who originally, in GC, said that tithing funds were not used to fund the downtown/CC project? I would like to know where the retraction is. And is it because they are acknowledging that all Church funds, whether from Church-owned business, real-estate, etc., have their roots in tithing at some point in the past?

I am for complete financial transparency, btw - I don't like that our Church & Leaders are hiding behind 501c3. Many of us tithe-paying members would like to know how the stewards are using the money. And it used to be that way - I can't remember when it stopped, but I think we should go back to that. If stuff is being misspent or they would be embarrassed for others to know, then transparency & sunlight would change/cure that.

Col. Flagg wrote: ↑June 14th, 2018, 1:32 pm

SempiternalHarbinger wrote: ↑June 14th, 2018, 10:17 amI'm curious Col. Flagg, now that the church has come out and said tithing funds are used for all these billion $ projects and investments, has anyone on this forum apologized to you? Every time you suggested tithing was being used you were met with firm opposition. Any apologies?

No, but it's not necessary really, most of them simply thought they were defending a church that they had held in high esteem their whole life as perfect, infallible and incapable of wrong-doing under any circumstances (especially those at the top) as well having my own spiritual welfare in mind (attempting to persuade me to stop with what they perceived as being dangerous spiritually) - I've already forgiven the attacks - Christ taught us to forgive and forget, right? I just wish members of the church would listen to their conscience more instead of relying upon what they were told or taught growing up and that's how it is, end of story and to question or challenge anything is akin to apostasy and all that other nonsense. This is especially true with regard to the polygamy issue.

I'm afraid I missed the admission though - where and when did the church admit to using tithing to invest and for capital projects?

That was just classic Col. You are one funny fellow.

Col. Flagg wrote: ↑June 14th, 2018, 1:32 pm

SempiternalHarbinger wrote: ↑June 14th, 2018, 10:17 amI'm curious Col. Flagg, now that the church has come out and said tithing funds are used for all these billion $ projects and investments, has anyone on this forum apologized to you? Every time you suggested tithing was being used you were met with firm opposition. Any apologies?

No, but it's not necessary really, most of them simply thought they were defending a church that they had held in high esteem their whole life as perfect, infallible and incapable of wrong-doing under any circumstances (especially those at the top) as well having my own spiritual welfare in mind (attempting to persuade me to stop with what they perceived as being dangerous spiritually) - I've already forgiven the attacks - Christ taught us to forgive and forget, right? I just wish members of the church would listen to their conscience more instead of relying upon what they were told or taught growing up and that's how it is, end of story and to question or challenge anything is akin to apostasy and all that other nonsense. This is especially true with regard to the polygamy issue.

I'm afraid I missed the admission though - where and when did the church admit to using tithing to invest and for capital projects?

https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/ ... bal-church

Jesef wrote: ↑June 14th, 2018, 2:53 pm Where has the Church admitted this, SH & CF? Any links? Thanks. Was it Bednar or Hinckley who originally, in GC, said that tithing funds were not used to fund the downtown/CC project? I would like to know where the retraction is. And is it because they are acknowledging that all Church funds, whether from Church-owned business, real-estate, etc., have their roots in tithing at some point in the past?

I am for complete financial transparency, btw - I don't like that our Church & Leaders are hiding behind 501c3. Many of us tithe-paying members would like to know how the stewards are using the money. And it used to be that way - I can't remember when it stopped, but I think we should go back to that. If stuff is being misspent or they would be embarrassed for others to know, then transparency & sunlight would change/cure that.

https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/ ... question10

Resources used to carry out this work come principally from the tithing donations of Church members. A small portion of funds comes from businesses maintained by the Church.

Q&A #11: Where does the money for the Church’s reserves come from?

The vast majority of Church operations are funded through the sacred tithes and offerings given by members. The Church operates within its means and sets aside a portion of its funds each year. The Church follows the financial principles it teaches: living within a budget, avoiding debt, and saving and investing for the future. . .

Church Reserves:

Church members are taught to “gradually build a financial reserve by regularly saving [a portion of their income]” (Providing in the Lord’s Way: Summary of a Leader’s Guide to Welfare [booklet, 2009], 2). The Church applies this same principle in its own savings and investments. In addition to food and emergency supplies, the Church also sets aside funds each year for future needs. These funds are added to Church reserves, which include stocks and bonds, taxable businesses, agricultural interests and commercial and residential property.

Hope that helps.

.

SempiternalHarbinger wrote: ↑June 14th, 2018, 3:26 pm

Col. Flagg wrote: ↑June 14th, 2018, 1:32 pm

SempiternalHarbinger wrote: ↑June 14th, 2018, 10:17 amI'm curious Col. Flagg, now that the church has come out and said tithing funds are used for all these billion $ projects and investments, has anyone on this forum apologized to you? Every time you suggested tithing was being used you were met with firm opposition. Any apologies?

No, but it's not necessary really, most of them simply thought they were defending a church that they had held in high esteem their whole life as perfect, infallible and incapable of wrong-doing under any circumstances (especially those at the top) as well having my own spiritual welfare in mind (attempting to persuade me to stop with what they perceived as being dangerous spiritually) - I've already forgiven the attacks - Christ taught us to forgive and forget, right? I just wish members of the church would listen to their conscience more instead of relying upon what they were told or taught growing up and that's how it is, end of story and to question or challenge anything is akin to apostasy and all that other nonsense. This is especially true with regard to the polygamy issue.

I'm afraid I missed the admission though - where and when did the church admit to using tithing to invest and for capital projects?

https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/ ... bal-church

I am not disturbed or affected by this in any manner.

The church teaches us that we as individuals should live within our means, avoiding debt, and when possible, prepare for the future by establishing a financial reserve. Thus, it makes sense for them to have a portion of their funds squirreled away in investments and businesses. These reserves not only grant interest, but can be used in many ways to further the work of service and the Gospel in their own special way. The reserves are targeted to help sustain the church as it grows. If the church wasn't practicing this, wouldn't that make them hypocrites?

A wealthy church has more influence and opportunities to do good than a poor one. Thus we can see the wisdom of the Lord. The only real problems with having a wealthy church is the potential for pride,corruption, and priestcraft to grow within.

It's not about having wealth or $Billions in tithing & donations. It's about how that money is used, spent, invested, etc. No matter what, many of us tithe-paying members who believe the Church should truly reflect Christ and Christlike values, want to see those expenditures be both transparent and aligning with our values as a Church and a people who claim to be disciples of Christ in word and in deed. Shopping malls and other commercial ventures, including many stocks, do not do that. It's really that simple.

I do want to point this out, though, from the same link that SH & CF referenced:
https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/ ... bal-church

Q: Why does the Church maintain financial reserves when there are so many unmet humanitarian needs currently in the world?

The Church has spent billions of dollars over the past few years to meet welfare and humanitarian needs around the world. We anticipate that these needs will continue to increase over time. Church affiliated, for-profit entities also contribute to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints Foundation, which gives to various charitable causes. Church members donate their own time and resources to support many other charitable endeavors. This is part of the Church’s divine mission.

In addition to humanitarian and welfare efforts, Church financial reserves provide resources to sustain the Church’s future growth as prophecy is fulfilled that the gospel of Jesus Christ will be taught and the Church established in all nations of the earth until the Savior’s return. Ever-increasing financial means are needed to preach the message of Jesus Christ throughout the world, build and operate a fast-growing number of temples and houses of worship, and provide educational and other opportunities to lift people out of poverty and promote self-reliance.

AGStacker wrote: ↑June 14th, 2018, 10:36 am I'd rather the church be broke giving everything away than be wealthy. It use to impress me the amount of wealth the church has. Now it just makes me sad. The church could truly change the world if they applied the principles of Zion.

Christian Ministries health sharing is more Zion like than anything I have seen in the church.

How does the Church spread the Gospel throughout the world if its broke and its main focus is just giving money away?

AGStacker wrote: ↑June 14th, 2018, 10:36 am I'd rather the church be broke giving everything away than be wealthy. It use to impress me the amount of wealth the church has. Now it just makes me sad. The church could truly change the world if they applied the principles of Zion.

Christian Ministries health sharing is more Zion like than anything I have seen in the church.

If you feel that the church does not utilize its resources properly then by all means stop contributing and exercise your agency to contribute elsewhere. There are many other charities out there. Just don't begrudge those of us who do choose to contribute to the church and are just fine with the way those funds are administered. So many who complain and become embittered about the choices made with their contributions to the church think they should be involved and consulted in dictating how the church is using those funds. Sorry but that's just not how it works. Those called to be stewards are given that responsibility. If you dont like the choices they make then go elsewhere with your funds. Move on. Bellyaching and complaining about something you cant change is counterproductive to personal growth and development. It just cancors the soul and produces bitterness and sorrow. It's fruitless and frankly stupid.

Apparently we, as a church, as are invested in big pharma, defense weapons manufacturers, big oil, banking and even arms dealers…

https://www.sltrib.com/opinion/commenta ... nsparency/

I'm pretty sure we, our Church, has a very healthy surplus income every year, with its $6-8Billion in donations. They can't find enough places to put it, it looks like. But, of course, we don't really know because all the finances are hidden. So this is really mostly a circumstantial evidence debate. We don't know enough. In the quote I previously posted, the Church says they've spent $Billions over the last few years to meet welfare and humanitarian needs. That's a lot of money. But we still don't know how it compares to the income or other expenditures, expenses, or investments.

Jesef wrote: ↑June 15th, 2018, 12:52 pm I'm pretty sure we, our Church, has a very healthy surplus income every year, with its $6-8Billion in donations. They can't find enough places to put it, it looks like. But, of course, we don't really know because all the finances are hidden. So this is really mostly a circumstantial evidence debate. We don't know enough. In the quote I previously posted, the Church says they've spent $Billions over the last few years to meet welfare and humanitarian needs. That's a lot of money. But we still don't know how it compares to the income or other expenditures, expenses, or investments.

If the church spent billions of dollars on welfare and Humanitarian needs, does it really matter? Thats a hefty sum right there, and as I mentioned previously, the other money (regardless of how much) will put to good use and will further the work of the Lord regardless of whether it is put towards paying for church expenses, a shopping mall, or gets invested.

Jesef wrote: ↑June 15th, 2018, 12:52 pm I'm pretty sure we, our Church, has a very healthy surplus income every year, with its $6-8Billion in donations. They can't find enough places to put it, it looks like. But, of course, we don't really know because all the finances are hidden. So this is really mostly a circumstantial evidence debate. We don't know enough. In the quote I previously posted, the Church says they've spent $Billions over the last few years to meet welfare and humanitarian needs. That's a lot of money. But we still don't know how it compares to the income or other expenditures, expenses, or investments.

Durzan, since 1985, the church has dropped approx. $1.5 billion on humanitarian assistance. That comes out to an average of about $45.5 million per year. From 2009 to 2011, the church dropped anywhere from $3 to $5 billion on the City Creek center project. Let's go with the middle ground there and say $4 billion. That is $1.3 billion per year. Do the math... $1.3 billion / $45.5 million = 28.57 times more spent on a lavish, ritzy mall and million dollar condos where the rich can live, shop, eat and play. So sad. Or you could look at it as the church spent $2.67 billion more on a Babylonian mall and real estate development in 3 years than it did on humanitarian efforts over 33 years.

Hey, Col., how did you get those numbers? Really curious. And are you sure they're accurate?

That would make the Church's statement - "The Church has spent billions of dollars over the past few years to meet welfare and humanitarian needs around the world." - not just a stretch, but an outright lie, $1.5B not being "Billions" (at least $2B to qualify that statement) and "few years" isn't 33 years, it's 3-7 years, technically. I want to believe that the Church & it's PR department are telling the truth.

I don't feel their explanation, from GC, about the City Creek project, was completely forthright - since they spun it to sound like the moneys involved had absolutely no connections or roots to tithing/donations. And that makes it look like we're really just concerned about positive PR instead of the truth and being 100% honest.

I really think this all has to start with 100% financial transparency. If they/the-Brethren don't like the reaction, then they can react/change/respond to it.

Durzan, what is your purpose for posting on this thread? Is it to convince us not to care where the money goes, like you apparently don't care?

Mark, likewise. You've confused embitterment with disagreement. You apparently don't want to tolerate any disagreement by the members with any leaders, huh? You think the leaders are just right all the time? Or is it disloyal to respectfully disagree? Or are their opinions and decisions always the Lord's opinions and decisions and therefore disagreeing is actually rebellion (in your view)?

Jesef wrote: ↑June 15th, 2018, 2:39 pm Durzan, what is your purpose for posting on this thread? Is it to convince us not to care where the money goes, like you apparently don't care?

My purpose for commenting was because I had something to say, is it really that hard to understand? I comment when I have something to say, and I don't comment when I don't have anything to say. Nothing more, nothing less. There is no other motivation behind it.

The Lord's money is the Lord's money, regardless of where it goes, He'll put it to good use. What is important is that I give back a portion of money to the Lord as instructed in the D&C as an expression of faith, and He will blessed me and those around me accordingly in His own due time. While I wouldn't mind seeing the Church Financial report out of personal curiosity, it pertains very little to my salvation or the truthfulness of the gospel... though you can make the case that it does have everything to do with building up the Kingdom of God. Thus, I don't feel like I need to know the details of how exactly the church spends its donations and interest. It doesn't really affect my testimony at all.

And lets say the Church Financial report was made public. What changes? The people clamoring for a public release of financial documents would find something else to criticize or nitpick about... probably something that also doesn't really matter, and instead of using the church's financial secrecy as ammo, the anti-mormons would be using the financial reports themselves as ammo to throw at us. But most importantly, other groups who have a bone to pick with us would start to smell blood in the water, and will try to use this opening to expose additional bits of information to bash us with or manipulate to their advantage. At best, not much will change, and at worst... the church would've just opened themselves to new angles of slanderous attacks. If we give in on this point, it could bite us in the butt later.

The risks outweigh the paltry rewards, so its best that the financial reports remain confidential at least about the specifics. Though, I wouldn't mind them giving a somewhat more specific report about donations in General Conference, at the end of the day it doesn't really affect me that much in this world or in the next one to come. However, if they do decide to be a tad more transparent about their finances, it would probably be a mistake to publish a paper with lots of details.