LDS Freedom Forum

DesertWonderer2 wrote: ↑June 6th, 2018, 2:18 pm

Col. Flagg wrote: ↑June 6th, 2018, 1:58 pm Did or did not our Savior advocate selling all we have and helping others in need? And what’s that scripture about it being easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man (or church) to inherit the kingdom of God? Are we supposed to build Babylon… or Zion?

LOL...and when exactly did YOU sell all that you have and go ve it to the poor???

Col. Flagg hypocrisy alert!

Col. Flagg wrote: ↑June 6th, 2018, 5:30 pm Just broke this afternoon...

http://kutv.com/news/local/mormonleaks- ... 32-billion

Nah, man, that broke a solid week ago - there has been an active thread on the subject for days - viewtopic.php?f=1&t=48506

MormonLeaks: LDS Church connected to at least $32B in U.S. stock market
by Larry D. Curtis, John W. Yelland
Wednesday, May 30th 2018

I and many others have given a lot of money to the church, at times when it hurt us financially to do so. We have paid tithing when we qualified for poverty level. My brother-in-law has a very large family and lost his job but still paid thousands of dollars in back tithing to the church while they were sinking in debt. These are reminders of how corrupt it is to charge tithing based on income rather than as scriptures state: on INCREASE. Since I invested in it, I feel a need to do what I can to see it spent as God and Christ asked and I believe that many members want to do God’s will and follow Christ.

Jesus said the greatest commandments prioritize above all laws and prophets & are:
1) Love God - and “inasmuch as ye have done it unto the least of these ye have done it unto me.”... and
2) Love others as well as yourself. First priority is your own family.

I’m not perfect. I haven’t done all I could for those in need.
But I do some - and I see how many hands make light work, and how tithes are supposed to be going to those in need - but aren’t. So I and others follow the advise in Proverbs 31:8... “Open thy mouth for the dumb (those who have no voice) in the cause of all such as are appointed to destruction.” And I hope, pray and have faith that more and more will be inspired how best to help those in need by encouraging tithes are allocated as directed by the law of tithing (Deut 14:28-29) and repeatedly by Christ.

Mark wrote: ↑June 6th, 2018, 5:35 pm

DesertWonderer2 wrote: ↑June 6th, 2018, 2:18 pm

Col. Flagg wrote: ↑June 6th, 2018, 1:58 pm Did or did not our Savior advocate selling all we have and helping others in need? And what’s that scripture about it being easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man (or church) to inherit the kingdom of God? Are we supposed to build Babylon… or Zion?

LOL...and when exactly did YOU sell all that you have and go ve it to the poor???

Col. Flagg hypocrisy alert!

First of all, when Christ said to sell all you have and give to the poor, he didn’t mean literally sell everything you have so you have nothing, he meant to give your excess to help others and secondly, am I a church? I donate precisely what the Savior and Lord expect out of me, thank you.

Col. Flagg wrote: ↑June 7th, 2018, 9:56 am

Mark wrote: ↑June 6th, 2018, 5:35 pm

DesertWonderer2 wrote: ↑June 6th, 2018, 2:18 pm

Col. Flagg wrote: ↑June 6th, 2018, 1:58 pm Did or did not our Savior advocate selling all we have and helping others in need? And what’s that scripture about it being easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man (or church) to inherit the kingdom of God? Are we supposed to build Babylon… or Zion?

LOL...and when exactly did YOU sell all that you have and go ve it to the poor???

Col. Flagg hypocrisy alert!

First of all, when Christ said to sell all you have and give to the poor, he didn’t mean literally sell everything you have so you have nothing, he meant to give your excess to help others and secondly, am I a church? I donate precisely what the Savior and Lord expect out of me, thank you.

This is too much. Col. Flagg justification alert!!

Thinker wrote: ↑June 6th, 2018, 10:32 pm I and many others have given a lot of money to the church, at times when it hurt us financially to do so. We have paid tithing when we qualified for poverty level. My brother-in-law has a very large family and lost his job but still paid thousands of dollars in back tithing to the church while they were sinking in debt. These are reminders of how corrupt it is to charge tithing based on income rather than as scriptures state: on INCREASE. Since I invested in it, I feel a need to do what I can to see it spent as God and Christ asked and I believe that many members want to do God’s will and follow Christ.

Jesus said the greatest commandments prioritize above all laws and prophets & are:
1) Love God - and “inasmuch as ye have done it unto the least of these ye have done it unto me.”... and
2) Love others as well as yourself. First priority is your own family.

I’m not perfect. I haven’t done all I could for those in need.
But I do some - and I see how many hands make light work, and how tithes are supposed to be going to those in need - but aren’t. So I and others follow the advise in Proverbs 31:8... “Open thy mouth for the dumb (those who have no voice) in the cause of all such as are appointed to destruction.” And I hope, pray and have faith that more and more will be inspired how best to help those in need by encouraging tithes are allocated as directed by the law of tithing (Deut 14:28-29) and repeatedly by Christ.

“We have more or less of the principles of insubordination among us. But there is a principle associated with the kingdom of God that recognizes God in all things, and that recognizes the priesthood in all things, and those who do not do it had better repent or they will come to a stand very quickly; I tell you that in the name of the Lord. Do not think you are wise and that you can manage and manipulate the priesthood, for you cannot do it. God must manage, regulate, dictate, and stand at the head, and every man in his place. The ark of God does not need steadying, especially by incompetent men without revelation and without knowledge of the kingdom of God and its laws. It is a great work that we are engaged in, and it is for us to prepare ourselves for the labor before us, and to acknowledge God, his authority, his law and his priesthood in all things.” (John Taylor, Gospel Kingdom, p. 166.)

Ok Mark, I guess we ran out of effort or desire to continue going in circles.
So now we’ll just exchange quotes...

Col. Flagg wrote: ↑June 6th, 2018, 4:24 pm

shadow wrote: ↑June 6th, 2018, 2:36 pm

Col. Flagg wrote: ↑June 6th, 2018, 1:58 pm Did or did not our Savior advocate selling all we have and helping others in need? And what’s that scripture about it being easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man (or church) to inherit the kingdom of God? Are we supposed to build Babylon… or Zion?

Riddle me this- When did you sell all you had????? So I guess Babylon is good for you. You look like the rest of the camels.

The land of Zion is supposed to be purchased with $$$. Christ told the church to save money so they can buy the land Zion will be located. Do you treat the scriptures like a buffet too or do you simply not read them??

Matthew 19:24:

And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Matthew 6:24:

No man can serve two masters: for either he. will hate the one, and love the other; or else. he will hold to the one, and despise the other, Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Revelation 18: 2-5:

And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

Did God ask the church to save money to buy the property where Zion will sit or not? The answer is yes in case you're wondering.
Are you going to sell all you have and give the proceeds the poor or are you just going to keep griping about the church?

The Kingdom of God or Nothing, right?! But wait, what is the Kingdom of God? Is it the Church? Is it the Gospel? Is it the Council of Fifty stuff? Is it within you? I think Jesus said that last one. Lots of opinions, many from guys with much more authority than I - but then again, they were proven wrong in a lot of their opinions, too. I'm just going to try to live in the Spirit and walk by the Spirit, as Paul put it.

shadow wrote: ↑June 8th, 2018, 1:07 pm Did God ask the church to save money to buy the property where Zion will sit or not? The answer is yes in case you're wondering.
Are you going to sell all you have and give the proceeds the poor or are you just going to keep griping about the church?

I love ya Shadowman, but... where has God told church leaders to build up as much wealth as it can in order to buy land? And if Zion is supposed to be in Jackson County, Missouri, why has the church bought 2% of the land in Florida??? Secondly, not only do I donate appropriately, I also give to the Liahona Children's Foundation. You should do some research into why and how it got started in the first place.

Who cares. This is where we are today. If we want to change things - we have to change ourselves first (& only). We can't change the whole Church or its leadership or its culture in one generation. If you don't like it enough, speak up, or lobby for change, or leave - whatever course you think does the most good. Our culture prides itself on loyalty, though, so don't expect whistleblowing to go very well or be very effective. I still think the best way to help things change for the better is from the inside - via Loving influence. I've served as a bishop and on a previous high council - I currently serve on a high council - it's not much, I try to influence with love on the scale that I'm at, where I'm called/serving. I don't think everything is right & good about our Church culture, but I see some improvements over time, and I see a lot of good people in the group. Just my take.

Also of note for this thread... organized religion in the U.S. is worth almost $1.3 TRILLION a year which is more than the top 10 Fortune 500 companies combined.

Just an obvious note: Churches don't generate any income, per se, they consume people's incomes via donations. The Church has used tithing money, throughout its history, to buy all kinds of assets and some modest revenue generating ventures. Real estate appreciation is a real factor/income, too. From a certain perspective, we could view the tithing and donations as revenue, too - we, the members, are paying for the "goods and services" that we perceive the Church is providing, i.e. Salvation, society, culture, etc., etc.

Col. Flagg wrote: ↑June 8th, 2018, 1:23 pm
I love ya Shadowman, but... where has God told church leaders to build up as much wealth as it can in order to buy land?

You aught to spend more time studying the scriptures instead of studying what the anti's have to say.

From the Book of Ether-
6 And that a New Jerusalem should be built up upon this land ('Merica), unto the remnant of the seed of Joseph, for which things there has been a type.
7 For as Joseph brought his father down into the land of Egypt, even so he died there; wherefore, the Lord brought a remnant of the seed of Joseph out of the land of Jerusalem, that he might be merciful unto the seed of Joseph that they should perish not, even as he was merciful unto the father of Joseph that he should perish not.
8 Wherefore, the remnant of the house of Joseph shall be built upon this land; and it shall be a land of their inheritance; and they shall build up a holy city unto the Lord, like unto the Jerusalem of old; and they shall no more be confounded, until the end come when the earth shall pass away.

If you check your Patriarchal Blessing, I suspect you'll see that your lineage is through Joseph. And as I've suggested to you before, you aught to study the life of Joseph who was sold into Egypt. As it says in the verses above- the things in the story of Joseph are a type.

In the D&C The Lord gave instructions to the church for building the New Jerusalem. This is one of the many verses found in the D&C that answer your question "where has God told church leaders to build wealth in order to buy the Land where the New Jerusalem will be built" -

4 It must needs be necessary that ye save all the money that ye can, and that ye obtain all that ye can in righteousness, that in time ye may be enabled to purchase land for an inheritance, even the city (New Jerusalem).

I suspect it'll cost hundreds of billions to just get started. Church-owned businesses that generate money will help the number grow even faster. You might not like it, for some odd reason, but that's how God said it needs to be done. As Jack Sparrow said- "The only rules that really matter are these: what a man can do and what a man can't do." You can either accept that The Lord told the church to start saving a ton of money, or you can't. However, it's clearly staring you in the face that the revelations to Joseph are exactly that. All you have to do is pick up a copy of the D&C and read it.

You've been griping about the Lord's plan. You may want to rethink your position.

shadow wrote: ↑June 8th, 2018, 1:07 pm

Col. Flagg wrote: ↑June 6th, 2018, 4:24 pm

shadow wrote: ↑June 6th, 2018, 2:36 pm

Col. Flagg wrote: ↑June 6th, 2018, 1:58 pm Did or did not our Savior advocate selling all we have and helping others in need? And what’s that scripture about it being easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man (or church) to inherit the kingdom of God? Are we supposed to build Babylon… or Zion?

Riddle me this- When did you sell all you had????? So I guess Babylon is good for you. You look like the rest of the camels.

The land of Zion is supposed to be purchased with $$$. Christ told the church to save money so they can buy the land Zion will be located. Do you treat the scriptures like a buffet too or do you simply not read them??

Matthew 19:24:

And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Matthew 6:24:

No man can serve two masters: for either he. will hate the one, and love the other; or else. he will hold to the one, and despise the other, Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Revelation 18: 2-5:

And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

Did God ask the church to save money to buy the property where Zion will sit or not? The answer is yes in case you're wondering.
Are you going to sell all you have and give the proceeds the poor or are you just going to keep griping about the church?

The kid has read way to many Rock Waterman hater columns and it has permeated and infected his entire thought process. He just can't reason this out. Maybe he is a millennial with the dreaded post-modern progressivism disorder? Might as well go talk to a tree or a bush. I hear that is therapeutic to release frustrations..

So the Lord expects church leaders to amass untold sums of wealth to the tune of hundreds of billions by focusing on big business and money, engaging Babylon and investing tithing while he admonishes us in scripture to come out of Babylon, help those in need, preach the gospel and to avoid the love of money, honors of men and idolatry? If so, we sure have a God that contradicts himself and changes his mind a lot. Me thinks you need to understand the difference between saving up for a rainy day, what the correct, true and righteous operations of the church ought to be and what our God and Savior value and how the institutional church operates today as they are virtually in opposition. If you don't or can't see that, I'm sorry. Does the church do any good with its wealth? Of course, but it is also involved in much wrongdoing but for some reason, you are unable to see or accept it. Take off the blinders.

Mark, Shadow, honest and sincere question here... what would the church have to do before you begin to question or have concerns and doubts that it is off course and operating contradictory to scripture and who our Lord and Savior are? If the church announced tomorrow that it was getting in the movie theater and professional sports business by buying up theater chains across the country and purchasing stakes in NBA basketball teams, would you have a problem with that?

Col. Flagg wrote: ↑June 6th, 2018, 4:24 pm

shadow wrote: ↑June 6th, 2018, 2:36 pm

Col. Flagg wrote: ↑June 6th, 2018, 1:58 pm Did or did not our Savior advocate selling all we have and helping others in need? And what’s that scripture about it being easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man (or church) to inherit the kingdom of God? Are we supposed to build Babylon… or Zion?

Riddle me this- When did you sell all you had????? So I guess Babylon is good for you. You look like the rest of the camels.

The land of Zion is supposed to be purchased with $$$. Christ told the church to save money so they can buy the land Zion will be located. Do you treat the scriptures like a buffet too or do you simply not read them??

Matthew 19:24:

And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Matthew 6:24:

No man can serve two masters: for either he. will hate the one, and love the other; or else. he will hold to the one, and despise the other, Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Revelation 18: 2-5:

And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

If I remember correctly, that eye of the needle scripture refers to an actual gate in Jerusalem....and camels do go through it but they have to get down on their knees. Gives a little more meaning to the scripture and could probably refer to anyone.

Over my lifetime and as a member of the Church, I have noticed how the Church always seems to be "ahead of the game." With the decline in the birthrate all over the U.S., and in the Church, I am just wondering if the Brethren are anticipating a decline in tithing paying members and ARE "saving up" for a rainy day as well as obeying the commands the Lord has given regarding end times and being able to purchase land for the New Jerusalem, not to even mention the continuing of temple building, etc. Gosh, maybe they really are inspired.

Col. Flagg wrote: ↑June 13th, 2018, 8:41 am Mark, Shadow, honest and sincere question here... what would the church have to do before you begin to question or have concerns and doubts that it is off course and operating contradictory to scripture and who our Lord and Savior are? If the church announced tomorrow that it was getting in the movie theater and professional sports business by buying up theater chains across the country and purchasing stakes in NBA basketball teams, would you have a problem with that?

Honest answer here. I have a testimony born of the spirit that the restored Church of Jesus Christ continues to be operated with The Savior at its head. I have a testimony that the 1st Presidency and quorum of the 12 are in fact legit Apostles and Prophets directed by the Savior himself in doing His bidding on this earth. They continue to hold valid Priesthood keys and are doing the work He wants done.

Because the spirit has confirmed those truths to me why in the world would I be second guessing every decision they make in administering the affairs of the Kingdom like you appear to be caught up in doing?

Apparently you don't have that same testimony and feel they are not being led by the Lord in their stewardship callings. I don't honestly see you staying in this church over the long haul unless you gain that same witness.

If you go to the temple you make sacred covenants to sacrifice all you have in building up the Kingdom of God on earth which is found in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. If you don't think the church is in fact still that Kingdom headed by the Savior himself with Apostles and Prophets righteously directing its work on earth why are yoU still a part of it? Social reasons? Family obligations?

You need to get a testimony of the divinity of the work being done in the restored church or you will just fall away eventually anyway. It will just be a matter of time. Fast and pray to know for yourself if the Lord still directs the affairs of His church before you are taken away completely. Time is running short. You need your own witness. Then you will stop with all the doubting and complaining and just get to work building up the Lords earthly kingdom.

natasha wrote: ↑June 13th, 2018, 10:09 am Over my lifetime and as a member of the Church, I have noticed how the Church always seems to be "ahead of the game." With the decline in the birthrate all over the U.S., and in the Church, I am just wondering if the Brethren are anticipating a decline in tithing paying members and ARE "saving up" for a rainy day as well as obeying the commands the Lord has given regarding end times and being able to purchase land for the New Jerusalem, not to even mention the continuing of temple building, etc. Gosh, maybe they really are inspired.

Let me share a little story with you. Back in January, 2001, I was laid off from my job and was unemployed for several months. When I finally landed a new job, it was at a significantly reduced salary with no benefits. Roughly 4 weeks after I had found new employment, I got a letter in the mail one day… it was from Beneficial Life (a church owned company at the time). I opened it up and it was a loan solicitation for $5,000 at an interest rate of 23.99%. The church that I so loved and was devoted to to which I was paying 10% of my income had somehow obtained information on me and was preying on my misfortune by offering money at usurious interest rates. Yep, our church was in the loan sharking business. I wept when I discovered that Beneficial Life was owned and operated by the church. When I learned that Beneficial Life had gone bankrupt and was no longer years ago, I didn’t weep. The monthly payment on that loan would have been $125 with monthly interest at $100. Was that ‘inspired’ by the Lord?

Mark wrote: ↑June 13th, 2018, 12:07 pm

Col. Flagg wrote: ↑June 13th, 2018, 8:41 am Mark, Shadow, honest and sincere question here... what would the church have to do before you begin to question or have concerns and doubts that it is off course and operating contradictory to scripture and who our Lord and Savior are? If the church announced tomorrow that it was getting in the movie theater and professional sports business by buying up theater chains across the country and purchasing stakes in NBA basketball teams, would you have a problem with that?

Honest answer here. I have a testimony born of the spirit that the restored Church of Jesus Christ continues to be operated with The Savior at its head. I have a testimony that the 1st Presidency and quorum of the 12 are in fact legit Apostles and Prophets directed by the Savior himself in doing His bidding on this earth. They continue to hold valid Priesthood keys and are doing the work He wants done.

Because the spirit has confirmed those truths to me why in the world would I be second guessing every decision they make in administering the affairs of the Kingdom like you appear to be caught up in doing?

Apparently you don't have that same testimony and feel they are not being led by the Lord in their stewardship callings. I don't honestly see you staying in this church over the long haul unless you gain that same witness.

If you go to the temple you make sacred covenants to sacrifice all you have in building up the Kingdom of God on earth which is found in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. If you don't think the church is in fact still that Kingdom headed by the Savior himself with Apostles and Prophets righteously directing its work on earth why are yoU still a part of it? Social reasons? Family obligations?

You need to get a testimony of the divinity of the work being done in the restored church or you will just fall away eventually anyway. It will just be a matter of time. Fast and pray to know for yourself if the Lord still directs the affairs of His church before you are taken away completely. Time is running short. You need your own witness. Then you will stop with all the doubting and complaining and just get to work building up the Lords earthly kingdom.

That's awesome Mark, truly, it is, I think it's great that your testimony is that powerful. However, you didn't answer my question... if the church announced tomorrow that it was getting in the movie theater and professional sports business by buying up theater chains across the country and purchasing stakes in NBA basketball teams, would you have a problem with that?

Here’s something else to contemplate… back in the summer of 2012, my in-laws served a 6 month mission out at Sixth Crossing in the middle of the Wyoming wilderness, all at their own expense. They labored and exhausted themselves every day by helping the different groups who had traveled out there for treks as well as doing all the manual labor on the property and were never compensated one penny (while GA’s are paid over $120,000 + many other perks totaling close to $300,000 per year by some estimates). To make matters worse, missionaries serving out there didn't even have a meetinghouse on Sunday to worship in and so were forced to travel 180 miles round trip to Martin’s Cove for Sunday services at their own gas expense, all while the church had just completed a multi-billion mall in downtown Salt Lake City and high rise office towers in Philadelphia, PA. Please don’t tell me you see no problem with that?

Col. Flagg wrote: ↑June 13th, 2018, 12:07 pm

natasha wrote: ↑June 13th, 2018, 10:09 am Over my lifetime and as a member of the Church, I have noticed how the Church always seems to be "ahead of the game." With the decline in the birthrate all over the U.S., and in the Church, I am just wondering if the Brethren are anticipating a decline in tithing paying members and ARE "saving up" for a rainy day as well as obeying the commands the Lord has given regarding end times and being able to purchase land for the New Jerusalem, not to even mention the continuing of temple building, etc. Gosh, maybe they really are inspired.

Let me share a little story with you. Back in January, 2001, I was laid off from my job and was unemployed for several months. When I finally landed a new job, it was at a significantly reduced salary with no benefits. Roughly 4 weeks after I had found new employment, I got a letter in the mail one day… it was from Beneficial Life (a church owned company at the time). I opened it up and it was a loan solicitation for $5,000 at an interest rate of 23.99%. The church that I so loved and was devoted to to which I was paying 10% of my income had somehow obtained information on me and was preying on my misfortune by offering money at usurious interest rates. Yep, our church was in the loan sharking business. I wept when I discovered that Beneficial Life was owned and operated by the church. When I learned that Beneficial Life had gone bankrupt and was no longer years ago, I didn’t weep. The monthly payment on that loan would have been $125 with monthly interest at $100. Was that ‘inspired’ by the Lord?

You obviously know nothing about the loan sharking business. I will send Vito over to explain how money is loaned thru a "legit" loan shark and what interest is going to be charged to you. 20% per WEEK should be about right. I hope you have some spare parts to replace the ones they will remove when you don't pay on time. You will be Coveting that Beneficial loan with all your heart after they get done with rearranging your sorry complaining pie hole.

Col. Flagg wrote: ↑June 13th, 2018, 8:31 am So the Lord expects church leaders to amass untold sums of wealth...

Absodamlutely. Did you even read my prior response to you?? Why not respond to it?