LDS Freedom Forum

Posted: **June 5th, 2018, 1:18 pm**

investigator wrote: It may be your standing in the church if the Lord asks you to give you tithes to the poor and not a institution which has 32 billion dollars in the stock market.

Investigator, do you have a reference or document showing this to be the case? It is my understanding the church's net worth is in excess of $30 billion, but here you're implying the church has more than that invested in the markets. If so, things are far worse than I thought.

Posted: **June 5th, 2018, 1:55 pm**

Col. Flagg wrote: ↑June 5th, 2018, 1:18 pm
investigator wrote: It may be your standing in the church if the Lord asks you to give you tithes to the poor and not a institution which has 32 billion dollars in the stock market.
Investigator, do you have a reference or document showing this to be the case? It is my understanding the church's net worth is in excess of $30 billion, but here you're implying the church has more than that invested in the markets. If so, things are far worse than I thought.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=48506

Posted: **June 5th, 2018, 2:31 pm**

Col. Flagg wrote: ↑June 5th, 2018, 1:18 pm
investigator wrote: It may be your standing in the church if the Lord asks you to give you tithes to the poor and not a institution which has 32 billion dollars in the stock market.
Investigator, do you have a reference or document showing this to be the case? It is my understanding the church's net worth is in excess of $30 billion, but here you're implying the church has more than that invested in the markets. If so, things are far worse than I thought.

Yes investigator get the Col. these documents fast so he can get on all his favorite anti mormon sites and start posting it so others can diss the church even more. Maybe you can also dig up some dirt on Pres. Nelson while you're at it so he can have a twofer. Even if its just a salacious rumor. Just think of all the names that can be removed from the roles of the church. Except the Col.'s name of course. He will never fall away from the restored church. His testimony is just to strong.

Posted: **June 5th, 2018, 3:22 pm**

Who actually wrote this?

“obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law”

Not quite; that is only part of the article. It states more specifically that we believe in being subject to <rulers> in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law. We do not simply smile and nod at whatever the law says, we believe in being subject to those who obey, honor, and sustain it. That means one can not use the many perversions of our laws that now exist as an excuse to endorse ideas and positions that are contrary to the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Posted: **June 5th, 2018, 3:33 pm**

jsk wrote: ↑June 5th, 2018, 11:30 am
Thinker wrote: ↑June 5th, 2018, 8:51 am Mark,
Financially, and in other ways, prioritizing those in need is based on Jesus Christ’s greatest commandments. If you think those have been outdated and remodeled, maybe it’s not really Jesus Christ who is your leader.

Nobody’s perfect. We all make mistakes. That’s why it’s best not to follow another human being as if they are infallible. Still take whatever good from each person - and there is a lot of good offered in our church!
This is a very convenient justification for picking and choosing...you and your ilk are Cafeteria Mormons.

You are right about one thing though...nobody is perfect...particularly not me. But I'm honest about my sins and shortcomings and don't try and justify them.

I don’t know a single person who is not a cafeteria mormon.
Nobody does 100% of the long list of “shoulds” 24-7.
Nobody thinks exactly the same way, no matter how much it is attempted.

I could give you a long list of my shortcomings, if you want. I actually categorized them and then made goals to improve based on cognitive distortions I struggle with which are related to life traps.

Mark,
You are free to worship who you want.
I try to prioritize and worship God above anybody.
And I think of all living beings on this earth, Christ was the best example.
I especially try to prioritize his 2 greatest commandments, “which hang all the law and the prophets.”

Posted: **June 5th, 2018, 3:47 pm**

shadow wrote: ↑June 5th, 2018, 11:48 am
Thinker wrote: ↑June 5th, 2018, 8:51 am Mark,
Financially, and in other ways, prioritizing those in need is based on Jesus Christ’s greatest commandments. If you think those have been outdated and remodeled, maybe it’s not really Jesus Christ who is your leader.

But the prioritization found in Deuteronomy regarding the use of tithing funds is that church leaders get paid 1/3 of ALL tithes EVERY year and the poor receive 1/3 of the tithes every third year.

No, Shadow, we already discussed this.
Please read it:
Deuteronomy 14:28-29: “At the end of every three years, bring all the tithes of that year's produce and store it in your towns, so that the Levites (who have no allotment or inheritance of their own) and the foreigners, the fatherless and the widows who live in your towns may come and eat and be satisfied, and so that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hands.”

They didn’t have money so they paid tithes of increase from livestock, grains etc ALL TITHES FOR AN ENTIRE YEAR EVERY 3 YEARS, which translates to 1/3 of tithes for those in need.

Also the remaining 2/3 was for government which was mixed with religion. And most, if not all, of those who served religiously, also served in government capacities - even the Levite temple workers.

Posted: **June 5th, 2018, 4:57 pm**

Thinker wrote: ↑June 5th, 2018, 3:47 pm
shadow wrote: ↑June 5th, 2018, 11:48 am
Thinker wrote: ↑June 5th, 2018, 8:51 am Mark,
Financially, and in other ways, prioritizing those in need is based on Jesus Christ’s greatest commandments. If you think those have been outdated and remodeled, maybe it’s not really Jesus Christ who is your leader.

But the prioritization found in Deuteronomy regarding the use of tithing funds is that church leaders get paid 1/3 of ALL tithes EVERY year and the poor receive 1/3 of the tithes every third year.
No, Shadow, we already discussed this.
Please read it:
Deuteronomy 14:28-29: “At the end of every three years, bring all the tithes of that year's produce and store it in your towns, so that the Levites (who have no allotment or inheritance of their own) and the foreigners, the fatherless and the widows who live in your towns may come and eat and be satisfied, and so that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hands.”

They didn’t have money so they paid tithes of increase from livestock, grains etc ALL TITHES FOR AN ENTIRE YEAR EVERY 3 YEARS, which translates to 1/3 of tithes for those in need.

Also the remaining 2/3 was for government which was mixed with religion. And most, if not all, of those who served religiously, also served in government capacities - even the Levite temple workers.

Well, not quite.
"To the sons of Levi, behold, I have given all
the tithe in Israel for an inheritance, in return for their service which they perform, the service of the
tent of meeting."

The church leaders today get nothing from tithing- it all comes from business profits. I'm surprised you're not out there complaining that church leaders don't get ALL the tithes for an inheritance for the service they perform. I guess you pick and choose which scriptures you like and disregard the ones you don't like.

Anyone headed to Chuck-A-Rama for Dinner tonight?

Posted: **June 5th, 2018, 5:37 pm**

EmmaLee wrote: ↑June 5th, 2018, 1:55 pm
Col. Flagg wrote: ↑June 5th, 2018, 1:18 pm
investigator wrote: It may be your standing in the church if the Lord asks you to give you tithes to the poor and not a institution which has 32 billion dollars in the stock market.
Investigator, do you have a reference or document showing this to be the case? It is my understanding the church's net worth is in excess of $30 billion, but here you're implying the church has more than that invested in the markets. If so, things are far worse than I thought.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=48506

Holy moly.

Posted: **June 5th, 2018, 10:08 pm**

shadow wrote: ↑June 5th, 2018, 4:57 pm
Thinker wrote: ↑June 5th, 2018, 3:47 pm
shadow wrote: ↑June 5th, 2018, 11:48 am
Thinker wrote: ↑June 5th, 2018, 8:51 am Mark,
Financially, and in other ways, prioritizing those in need is based on Jesus Christ’s greatest commandments. If you think those have been outdated and remodeled, maybe it’s not really Jesus Christ who is your leader.

But the prioritization found in Deuteronomy regarding the use of tithing funds is that church leaders get paid 1/3 of ALL tithes EVERY year and the poor receive 1/3 of the tithes every third year.
No, Shadow, we already discussed this.
Please read it:
Deuteronomy 14:28-29: “At the end of every three years, bring all the tithes of that year's produce and store it in your towns, so that the Levites (who have no allotment or inheritance of their own) and the foreigners, the fatherless and the widows who live in your towns may come and eat and be satisfied, and so that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hands.”

They didn’t have money so they paid tithes of increase from livestock, grains etc ALL TITHES FOR AN ENTIRE YEAR EVERY 3 YEARS, which translates to 1/3 of tithes for those in need.

Also the remaining 2/3 was for government which was mixed with religion. And most, if not all, of those who served religiously, also served in government capacities - even the Levite temple workers.
Well, not quite.
"To the sons of Levi, behold, I have given all
the tithe in Israel for an inheritance, in return for their service which they perform, the service of the
tent of meeting."

The church leaders today get nothing from tithing- it all comes from business profits. I'm surprised you're not out there complaining that church leaders don't get ALL the tithes for an inheritance for the service they perform. I guess you pick and choose which scriptures you like and disregard the ones you don't like.

Anyone headed to Chuck-A-Rama for Dinner tonight?

Shadow,
1) The Levites also had government/political duties, and there is some mention that they were unlike others in that they had no inheritance so they received some tithes.

2) Tithes were also like taxes although based on increase and not compelled. Tithing was used for roads, security and other governing services.

3) I could say you are picking and choosing too, because you’re ignoring some parts of the law of tithing while focusing on others. But who can blame you? Deut. 14:28-29 isn’t taught in church and isn’t even in lds triple combination scripture indexes or dictionaries when you search under “tithing.”

4) Jesus didn’t teach tithing but repeatedly asked us to prioritize those in need. He based the 2 greatest commandments on loving others which is loving God, and added that they are more important than any other law or prophet.

5) I feel kind of sad for you and others who are watching the church kind of unravel in part, with secrets becoming made known. It’s not easy to deal with - I know because I struggled for a while. I hope and pray that the members of the church are able to prioritize God and truth while having patience with the inherent flaws of people and groups of people, so the church as a whole, moves closer to, not further from, God.

Posted: **June 5th, 2018, 10:09 pm**

Thank you Mark for your wisdom and the testimony you offer, it is much needed here.

I find it somewhat ironic that so many here use the argument that “Following the brethren is following fallible man, therefore I cannot on this or another subject”. But, isn’t following one’s own interpretation subject to the same fallibility, only in this case the fallible one is the person themselves?

I’m sure the argument will be, “but I received personal revelation”. Well, i think, revelation received that is contrary to the brethren is suspect, and certainly could be revelation that is coming from a evil source. I’m saddened to read the criticism of the prophet and apostles here. For those that believe our leaders are generally fallen, i suggest you are off track.

Posted: **June 5th, 2018, 10:58 pm**

Col. Flagg wrote: ↑June 5th, 2018, 5:37 pm
EmmaLee wrote: ↑June 5th, 2018, 1:55 pm
Col. Flagg wrote: ↑June 5th, 2018, 1:18 pm
investigator wrote: It may be your standing in the church if the Lord asks you to give you tithes to the poor and not a institution which has 32 billion dollars in the stock market.
Investigator, do you have a reference or document showing this to be the case? It is my understanding the church's net worth is in excess of $30 billion, but here you're implying the church has more than that invested in the markets. If so, things are far worse than I thought.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=48506
Holy moly.

From the words of Gladys Knight to a real pip: "Don't criticize something you don't yet understand."

Posted: **June 5th, 2018, 11:48 pm**

Thinker wrote: ↑June 5th, 2018, 10:08 pm
shadow wrote: ↑June 5th, 2018, 4:57 pm
Thinker wrote: ↑June 5th, 2018, 3:47 pm
shadow wrote: ↑June 5th, 2018, 11:48 am

But the prioritization found in Deuteronomy regarding the use of tithing funds is that church leaders get paid 1/3 of ALL tithes EVERY year and the poor receive 1/3 of the tithes every third year.
No, Shadow, we already discussed this.
Please read it:
Deuteronomy 14:28-29: “At the end of every three years, bring all the tithes of that year's produce and store it in your towns, so that the Levites (who have no allotment or inheritance of their own) and the foreigners, the fatherless and the widows who live in your towns may come and eat and be satisfied, and so that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hands.”

They didn’t have money so they paid tithes of increase from livestock, grains etc ALL TITHES FOR AN ENTIRE YEAR EVERY 3 YEARS, which translates to 1/3 of tithes for those in need.

Also the remaining 2/3 was for government which was mixed with religion. And most, if not all, of those who served religiously, also served in government capacities - even the Levite temple workers.
Well, not quite.
"To the sons of Levi, behold, I have given all
the tithe in Israel for an inheritance, in return for their service which they perform, the service of the
tent of meeting."

The church leaders today get nothing from tithing- it all comes from business profits. I'm surprised you're not out there complaining that church leaders don't get ALL the tithes for an inheritance for the service they perform. I guess you pick and choose which scriptures you like and disregard the ones you don't like.

Anyone headed to Chuck-A-Rama for Dinner tonight?
Shadow,
1) The Levites also had government/political duties, and there is some mention (what do you mean "some mention?? It's in black and white clear as day.) that they were unlike others in that they had no inheritance so they received some tithes. (Some tithes?? It's clearly written that they received ALL the tithes.)

2) Tithes were also like taxes although based on increase and not compelled (It was commanded). Tithing was used for roads, security and other governing services.

3) I could say you are picking and choosing too, because you’re ignoring some parts of the law of tithing while focusing on others. But who can blame you? Deut. 14:28-29 isn’t taught in church and isn’t even in lds triple combination scripture indexes or dictionaries when you search under “tithing.” (Tithing has been revealed through Joseph Smith as has the purposes of tithing. But hey, sorry I missed you at Chuck-A-Rama where one can pick and choose what they want.)

4) Jesus didn’t teach tithing (He absolutely did teach tithing) but repeatedly asked us to prioritize those in need. He based the 2 greatest commandments on loving others which is loving God, and added that they are more important than any other law or prophet.

5) I feel kind of sad for you and others who are watching the church kind of unravel in part, with secrets becoming made known. It’s not easy to deal with - I know because I struggled for a while. I hope and pray that the members of the church are able to prioritize God and truth while having patience with the inherent flaws of people and groups of people, so the church as a whole, moves closer to, not further from, God. (I believe you're blind and can't see the Lord's work with his church in these latter days. It's wonderful! There's no unraveling whatsoever.)

So you admit church leaders are supposed to be paid from tithes?? I can't seem to follow you. But sure, tithes were used for roads and security and probably to fund NASA. Yep, it's all in the scriptures.

The greatest commandment is to love God. Christ said "if ye love me, keep my commandments." Then in the D&C He revealed the purposes of tithing and He commanded us to pay tithing to the church to fund those purposes.

Posted: **June 6th, 2018, 7:15 am**

Durzan wrote: ↑May 23rd, 2018, 10:00 am
Col. Flagg wrote: ↑May 22nd, 2018, 9:56 pm This just came out today...

https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/ ... t=9yTqffkF

-snip-

Yeah Col. Flagg, this is a non-issue. The church itself isn't a for-profit institution, although some of its sponsored branches (for lack of a better term) are, such as Deseret Industries.

For heavens sake, please put this to rest my brother, and focus on building your own testimony instead of trying to tear it down. Don't suffer your soul to be weary on this issue; if the finances of the church are being mishandled, then God will sort it out in time. Focus on your own stewardship instead, and quit attempting to weary both your own soul and the souls of others.

It is good that we keep up on these things, it helps leaders know that people are watching earnestly and is another incentive to be honest. Joseph Smith set up the church in a way that we sustain leaders for the very purpose that we could have a say when someone is put forth that is dishonest or dishonorable and not be stuck with just anyone. It is our duty to speak out to injustices within the Church. We are not meant to be blind sheep and put blind faith in leaders - in fact we are counseled against it. Obviously people will take it too far and we will never get to a point where we all agree but that will happen with anything and is their choice to make.

“All is well in Zion” will be our downfall, not because we can’t see problems but because we refuse to acknowledge that they already exist.

Posted: **June 6th, 2018, 9:56 am**

Col. Flagg wrote: ↑June 5th, 2018, 1:18 pm It is my understanding the church's net worth is in excess of $30 billion, but here you're implying the church has more than that invested in the markets. If so, things are far worse than I thought.

You mean better than you thought.

4 It must needs be necessary that ye save all the money that ye can, and that ye obtain all that ye can in righteousness, that in time ye may be enabled to purchase land for an inheritance, even the city.

5 The place is not yet to be revealed; but after your brethren come from the east there are to be certain men appointed, and to them it shall be given to know the place, or to them it shall be revealed.

6 And they shall be appointed to purchase the lands, and to make a commencement to lay the foundation of the city; and then shall ye begin to be gathered with your families, every man according to his family, according to his circumstances, and as is appointed to him by the presidency and the bishop of the church, according to the laws and commandments which ye have received, and which ye shall hereafter receive. Even so. Amen.

Ignorance really isn't bliss.
And now you know.

Posted: **June 6th, 2018, 11:01 am**

Shadow,
Ignorance isn’t bliss, but leaves one with a weak foundation. And since we are given so many resources and the spirit by which to learn truth, I don’t think we will be saved in ignorance. And nobody can choose the right for another.

I believe the church leaders should be able to use some tithes for paying church building and running expenses - but not all of it! At least 1/3 is supposed to go to those in need - Jesus suggested much more - or as needed. And there is great need! Almost 1,000,000,000 of our brothers and sisters are “chronically hungry.” Many die daily of related causes.

Posted: **June 6th, 2018, 11:44 am**

Thinker wrote: ↑June 6th, 2018, 11:01 am Shadow,
Ignorance isn’t bliss, but leaves one with a weak foundation. And since we are given so many resources and the spirit by which to learn truth, I don’t think we will be saved in ignorance. And nobody can choose the right for another. (Yep, that's the gist of what I posted to Flagg- facts so he won't be in ignorance)

I believe... (That's correct, it's YOUR belief. God instructed differently as found in the revelations to Joseph Smith)

Question from Judas-
5- Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor?
Christ's answer-
8- For the poor always ye have with you.
Some sums are reserved for different purposes.

The church has the command from God on the uses of tithing. Period. YOU might think you're smarter than God, but church leaders don't take your position. They follow the commandments as have been given regarding tithing and saving money. Prophets have asked us to help where we see a need. Bishops have been asked to seek out those in their ward boundaries who might need help. We've been asked to provide service where service is needed. We've been asked to give a generous fast offering which helps the poor and hungry. The church has huge warehouses full of food that they constantly deliver to places where it's needed. The church is huge when it comes to giving humanitarian needs. It's a wonderful program.

Posted: **June 6th, 2018, 1:15 pm**

Shadow,
I agree that the church (especially many members) does a lot of good!
Yet, not a cent of TITHES goes to the poor and that is breaking the law of tithing as to tithing-collectors’ responsibility.

Mark 10:21: “Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.”

Posted: **June 6th, 2018, 1:58 pm**

Did or did not our Savior advocate selling all we have and helping others in need? And what’s that scripture about it being easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man (or church) to inherit the kingdom of God? Are we supposed to build Babylon… or Zion?

Posted: **June 6th, 2018, 2:11 pm**

If the church were a Fortune 500 company, we'd be #79 with $40+ billion (Allstate sits at #79 right now). But this is only an estimated figure since the church is not transparent or forthcoming about its finances.

By comparison, the Catholic church has 1.3 billion members... ours has 14 million, of which only 7 million are considered active, yet, we are estimated at a net worth of $10 billion more than they are. That is sobering.

Posted: **June 6th, 2018, 2:18 pm**

Col. Flagg wrote: ↑June 6th, 2018, 1:58 pm Did or did not our Savior advocate selling all we have and helping others in need? And what’s that scripture about it being easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man (or church) to inherit the kingdom of God? Are we supposed to build Babylon… or Zion?

LOL...and when exactly did YOU sell all that you have and go ve it to the poor???

Posted: **June 6th, 2018, 2:20 pm**

Col. Flagg wrote: ↑June 6th, 2018, 2:11 pm If the church were a Fortune 500 company, we'd be #79 with $40+ billion (Allstate sits at #79 right now). But this is only an estimated figure since the church is not transparent or forthcoming about its finances. By comparison, the Catholic church has 1.3 billion members... ours has 14 million, of which only 7 million are considered active, yet, we are estimated at a net worth of $10 billion more than they are. That is sobering.

Thank you for pointing this out. It is comforting to know that we have wise stewards managing church assets.

Posted: **June 6th, 2018, 2:24 pm**

Our church is currently estimated to have a net worth of $10 billion more than the Catholic church. We have 14 million members, 7 million of which are considered active. In other words, we are 33% richer than a church that has 93 times more members (186 times more if you go by just those who are active). Let that sink in.

Posted: **June 6th, 2018, 2:36 pm**

Col. Flagg wrote: ↑June 6th, 2018, 1:58 pm Did or did not our Savior advocate selling all we have and helping others in need? And what’s that scripture about it being easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man (or church) to inherit the kingdom of God? Are we supposed to build Babylon… or Zion?

Riddle me this- When did you sell all you had????? So I guess Babylon is good for you. You look like the rest of the camels.

The land of Zion is supposed to be purchased with $$$. Christ told the church to save money so they can buy the land Zion will be located. Do you treat the scriptures like a buffet too or do you simply not read them??

Posted: **June 6th, 2018, 4:24 pm**

shadow wrote: ↑June 6th, 2018, 2:36 pm
Col. Flagg wrote: ↑June 6th, 2018, 1:58 pm Did or did not our Savior advocate selling all we have and helping others in need? And what’s that scripture about it being easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man (or church) to inherit the kingdom of God? Are we supposed to build Babylon… or Zion?
Riddle me this- When did you sell all you had????? So I guess Babylon is good for you. You look like the rest of the camels.

The land of Zion is supposed to be purchased with $$$. Christ told the church to save money so they can buy the land Zion will be located. Do you treat the scriptures like a buffet too or do you simply not read them??

Matthew 19:24:

And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Matthew 6:24:

No man can serve two masters: for either he. will hate the one, and love the other; or else. he will hold to the one, and despise the other, Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Revelation 18: 2-5:

And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

Posted: **June 6th, 2018, 5:30 pm**

Just broke this afternoon...

http://kutv.com/news/local/mormonleaks- ... 32-billion

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