How are Humans Created in Mormonism

[drtanner]

You never see Christians ever becoming Mormons but lots of Mormons turn from Mormonism to believe in Christ as Christians. It's because the love is seen that was never seen before in the God portrayed in Mormonism.

It happens if you will open your heart and read the book of Mormon sincerely.

[Parture]

Parture: "You don't know the famous quote "after all you can do..." so that is not grace."



That quote pairs nicely from another one that we believe in the Book of Mormon:

Alma 24:11 And now behold, my brethren, since it has been all that we could do (as we were the most lost of all mankind) to repent of all our sins ...., for it was all we could do to repent sufficiently before God that he would take away our stain—

Under the heading “2 Nephi 25:23—We Are Saved by Grace, after All We Can Do”, the currently used CES manual Book of Mormon Student Study Guide reads,

“We are saved by the power of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. We must, however, come unto Christ on His terms in order to obtain all the blessings that He freely offers us. We come unto Christ by doing “all we can do” to remember Him, keep our covenants with Him, and obey His commandments (see D&C 20:77, 79; see also Abraham 3:25).” (p. 53)

[Parture]

You never see Christians ever becoming Mormons but lots of Mormons turn from Mormonism to believe in Christ as Christians. It's because the love is seen that was never seen before in the God portrayed in Mormonism.

It happens if you will open your heart and read the book of Mormon sincerely.

I can't reconcile swords, horses and chariots in the ancient Americas so the guy in this video was sideswiped. Evidence rules and wins no matter what feeling overcomes you.

[Parture]

You simply can't change 1 God into 3 gods, for there is no other God beside God, after God or before God the Bible says. Polytheism is a heresy.

[Parture]

“And what is ‘all we can do’? It surely includes repentance (see Alma 24:11) and baptism, keeping the commandments, and enduring to the end. Moroni pleaded, ‘Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ’ (Moro. 10:32).” – Dallin H. Oaks[fn]Dallin H. Oaks, “Have You Been Saved?” Ensign, May 1998, p. 55

No human can do this; too many rules and restrictions to get saved.

It's because we can't endure to the end we receive Christ by faith alone.

[Parture]

The very fact based on one's works you end up in one of three kingdoms requires works. Whereas the Bible teaches one New City and New Earth and entrance into is not based on any works at all.

[Parture]

On December 9th, 1982, Ezra Taft Benson gave a talk entitled, “After All We Can Do”, and said the following:

“What is meant by ‘after all we can do’? ‘After all we can do’ includes extending our best effort. ‘After all we can do’ includes living His commandments. ‘After all we can do’ includes loving our fellowmen and praying for those who regard us as their adversary. ‘After all we can do’ means clothing the naked, feeding the hungry, visiting the sick and giving ‘succor [to] those who stand in need of [our] succor’ (Mosiah 4:15)-remembering that what we do unto one of the least of God’s children, we do unto Him (see Matthew 25:34-40; D&C 42:38). ‘After all we can do’ means leading chaste, clean, pure lives, being scrupulously honest in all our dealings and treating others the way we would want to be treated.”[fn]Ezra Taft Benson, “After All We Can Do,” Christmas Devotional, Salt Lake City, Utah, 9 December 1982. Quoted in The Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, p. 354.[/fn]

[Parture]

Referencing 2 Nephi 25:23 and paralleling temporal salvation with celestial exaltation, Marion G. Romney speaks of how a man must go through the “pearly gates”:

“The truth is that we are saved by grace only after all we ourselves can do. (See 2 Ne. 25:23.) There will be no government dole which can get us through the pearly gates. Nor will anybody go into the celestial kingdom who wants to go there on the works of someone else. Every man must go through on his own merits. We might just as well learn this here and now.”[fn]Marion G. Romney, “In Mine Own Way,” Ensign, Nov. 1976, p. 123

[kittycat51]

Oi, another one of those threads.

[braingrunt]

Referencing 2 Nephi 25:23 and paralleling temporal salvation with celestial exaltation, Marion G. Romney speaks of how a man must go through the “pearly gates”:

“The truth is that we are saved by grace only after all we ourselves can do. (See 2 Ne. 25:23.) There will be no government dole which can get us through the pearly gates. Nor will anybody go into the celestial kingdom who wants to go there on the works of someone else. Every man must go through on his own merits. We might just as well learn this here and now.”[fn]Marion G. Romney, “In Mine Own Way,” Ensign, Nov. 1976, p. 123

Works are good. Faith without them is dead, according to scripture.

Each person will have to work toward alive faith in christ in order to be saved. Jesus recommended doing "his will" as a means of developing alive faith. If any man will do his will he will know of the doctrine. I recommend it too.

In fact, I'm telling you you'll have to.

Of course, my word without the authority of scripture is nothing.

[The Airbender]

You never see Christians ever becoming Mormons but lots of Mormons turn from Mormonism to believe in Christ as Christians. It's because the love is seen that was never seen before in the God portrayed in Mormonism.

It happens if you will open your heart and read the book of Mormon sincerely.

I can't reconcile swords, horses and chariots in the ancient Americas so the guy in this video was sideswiped. Evidence rules and wins no matter what feeling overcomes you.

Sideswiped, eh?

So, what was the purpose of you coming into this forum, exactly? You've already decided what you believe. Are you here to try and pull people away from their religion? I mean, you obviously aren't here to listen or learn.

Why not just name your post "Why Mormons Should Quit and Become Christians" and come out with guns blazing rather than pretending to care what anyone else thinks?

I don't jump on to christian forums to try to convince them why "faith without works is dead, being alone" even though it is right there in their bible. I don't sign up to christian forums just to tout all the contradictions in the bible, or to ask controversial questions just to stir a pot.

What is your purpose in coming here?

[Serragon]

“We are saved by the power of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. We must, however, come unto Christ on His terms in order to obtain all the blessings that He freely offers us. We come unto Christ by doing “all we can do” to remember Him, keep our covenants with Him, and obey His commandments (see D&C 20:77, 79; see also Abraham 3:25).” (p. 53)

You believe the exact same thing as evidenced by your own words.

You believe that "all we can do" is to believe and have faith. We believe you can do a bit more to increase that faith is increased by keeping the commandments Christ Himself gave.


But both of us believe in doing all we can do. You just won't admit it to yourself. I wonder why you never reference the many times Christ referenced keeping His commandments in conjunction with belief in Him? I wonder why you don't quote the passages Paul wrote extensively on about doing works. I wonder why you don't refrence James in any of your musings?

You are selective in your application of bible scripture to suit your purposes. Your buffet style Christianity is an abomination to Christ.

[Serragon]

“And what is ‘all we can do’? It surely includes repentance (see Alma 24:11) and baptism, keeping the commandments, and enduring to the end. Moroni pleaded, ‘Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ’ (Moro. 10:32).” – Dallin H. Oaks[fn]Dallin H. Oaks, “Have You Been Saved?” Ensign, May 1998, p. 55

No human can do this; too many rules and restrictions to get saved.

It's because we can't endure to the end we receive Christ by faith alone.

"Endure to the end" means keeping faith in Christ. Are you suggesting that humans can't maintian faith in Christ throughout their lives?

Do you believe we should not try and keep Christ's commandments?

Do you believe we should not repent and turn away from our sin as Christ commanded in the Bible?

Do you believe we should not be baptised as Christ commanded in the Bible?

Do you believe we should not have faith in Christ throughout our lives?

Does faith have magnitued? Can it grow or diminish or is it like a light switch.. on or off? How do you "have" faith if you have done nothing to get it?

How do you reconcile all of the things Christ commanded with your limited doctrine based on a few scattered teachings of Paul?

What does Christ mean when he ways he wants you to be one with Him in exactly the same way He is one with the Father?

Why put Christ in a small prison of your limited understanding? Believe the whole Bible and be set free.

[Parture]

Referencing 2 Nephi 25:23 and paralleling temporal salvation with celestial exaltation, Marion G. Romney speaks of how a man must go through the “pearly gates”:

“The truth is that we are saved by grace only after all we ourselves can do. (See 2 Ne. 25:23.) There will be no government dole which can get us through the pearly gates. Nor will anybody go into the celestial kingdom who wants to go there on the works of someone else. Every man must go through on his own merits. We might just as well learn this here and now.”[fn]Marion G. Romney, “In Mine Own Way,” Ensign, Nov. 1976, p. 123

Works are good. Faith without them is dead, according to scripture.

Each person will have to work toward alive faith in christ in order to be saved. Jesus recommended doing "his will" as a means of developing alive faith. If any man will do his will he will know of the doctrine. I recommend it too.

In fact, I'm telling you you'll have to.

Of course, my word without the authority of scripture is nothing.

John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.”
Rom. 3:28, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.”
Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"
Rom. 9:30, "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith."
Rom. 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."

[Parture]

“We are saved by the power of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. We must, however, come unto Christ on His terms in order to obtain all the blessings that He freely offers us. We come unto Christ by doing “all we can do” to remember Him, keep our covenants with Him, and obey His commandments (see D&C 20:77, 79; see also Abraham 3:25).” (p. 53)

You believe the exact same thing as evidenced by your own words.

You believe that "all we can do" is to believe and have faith. We believe you can do a bit more to increase that faith is increased by keeping the commandments Christ Himself gave.


But both of us believe in doing all we can do. You just won't admit it to yourself. I wonder why you never reference the many times Christ referenced keeping His commandments in conjunction with belief in Him? I wonder why you don't quote the passages Paul wrote extensively on about doing works. I wonder why you don't refrence James in any of your musings?

You are selective in your application of bible scripture to suit your purposes. Your buffet style Christianity is an abomination to Christ.

I don't agree with all this work before initial salvation.

Synopsis of Mormon Salvation
You cannot be saved in your sins, (The Book of Mormon, Alma 11:37).
By grace you are saved, after all you can do, (2 Nephi 25:23).
You must give your best, (The Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, p.354.)
You must deny yourselves of all ungodliness, (Moroni 10:32).
Turn from all former sins and commit them no more, (Teachings of the Presidents of the Church: Wilford Woodruff, pp.71-72).
If you commit any past sin again, the former sins return, (D&C 82:7).
Therefore, in order to remain forgiven you must never commit the sin again, (Mormon Missionary Discussion F, Uniform System for Teaching Families. 1981, p.36).

[Parture]

“And what is ‘all we can do’? It surely includes repentance (see Alma 24:11) and baptism, keeping the commandments, and enduring to the end. Moroni pleaded, ‘Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ’ (Moro. 10:32).” – Dallin H. Oaks[fn]Dallin H. Oaks, “Have You Been Saved?” Ensign, May 1998, p. 55

No human can do this; too many rules and restrictions to get saved.

It's because we can't endure to the end we receive Christ by faith alone.

"Endure to the end" means keeping faith in Christ. Are you suggesting that humans can't maintian faith in Christ throughout their lives?

Do you believe we should not try and keep Christ's commandments?

Do you believe we should not repent and turn away from our sin as Christ commanded in the Bible?

Do you believe we should not be baptised as Christ commanded in the Bible?

Do you believe we should not have faith in Christ throughout our lives?

Does faith have magnitued? Can it grow or diminish or is it like a light switch.. on or off? How do you "have" faith if you have done nothing to get it?

How do you reconcile all of the things Christ commanded with your limited doctrine based on a few scattered teachings of Paul?

What does Christ mean when he ways he wants you to be one with Him in exactly the same way He is one with the Father?

Why put Christ in a small prison of your limited understanding? Believe the whole Bible and be set free.

John 10.28 says those wo are born-again are once saved always saved so someone initially saved can never lose salvation.

None of the works can save you just like the animal sacrifices couldn't save you.

[Parture]

A really good indication someone is not saved is they believe they could lose salvation. God doesn't save anyone that could lose salvation.

[Parture]

Faith is a gift so is repentance. Who does God give the gift of repentance and faith to, to be initially saved?

We are told to search God out with all our hearts and souls only then will we find Him. This does not mean becoming sinless for no man can achieve that. If you fulfill the condition "with all our hearts and souls" only then will God redeem you.

All our hearts and souls does not mean all the works listed. For example, you could search God out with all your heart and soul and yet not be baptized, still sinning, and not going to church, and not doing a great many other things one should do and ought not to do.

We are saved in spite of, not after all we can do.

[Tbone]

Works are good. Faith without them is dead, according to scripture.

Faith without works is like trying to serve two masters. Or maybe it's more like promising one master you will serve him, but then not actually doing it.

I think I could actually feel my brain cells dying from reading some of this thread.

[Parture]

Works are good. Faith without them is dead, according to scripture.

Faith without works is like trying to serve two masters. Or maybe it's more like promising one master you will serve him, but then not actually doing it.

I think I could actually feel my brain cells dying from reading some of this thread.

The word "dead" here means ineffective, it does not mean you need works to be saved, nor does it mean you can lose salvation once saved.

[Parture]

The problem at the end of the day is the church leaders are touting works to be saved to control you, but when you read the passage you could read as such that you simply need to repent to the fulness of your ability. This dance back and forth for the meaning is duplicitous.

[Parture]

The meaning is one and only one way of interpretation. And since it is usually so predominantly to mean works to be saved that is what it means. Works to receive initial salvation are dead works.

[drtanner]

Parture: "You don't know the famous quote "after all you can do..." so that is not grace."



That quote pairs nicely from another one that we believe in the Book of Mormon:

Alma 24:11 And now behold, my brethren, since it has been all that we could do (as we were the most lost of all mankind) to repent of all our sins ...., for it was all we could do to repent sufficiently before God that he would take away our stain—

Under the heading “2 Nephi 25:23—We Are Saved by Grace, after All We Can Do”, the currently used CES manual Book of Mormon Student Study Guide reads,

“We are saved by the power of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. We must, however, come unto Christ on His terms in order to obtain all the blessings that He freely offers us. We come unto Christ by doing “all we can do” to remember Him, keep our covenants with Him, and obey His commandments (see D&C 20:77, 79; see also Abraham 3:25).” (p. 53)

The quote has nothing to do with our works actually saving us. To understand what it is really saying and how we really feel about grace I recommend the following:

And

One of the greatest Principles shared from Elder Uchtdorf in his talk. “Salvation can not be bought with the currency of obedience.” So true. I actually believe we have much more in common then you may think. Also one of the things I think you will find interesting as you get to know those on the forum is that not everyone here agrees with the CES, or journal of discourses, and the beautiful thing about Mormonism is there is room for that. The quest for truth is a one on one journey with Christ. He is the only thing that matters at the end of the day.

One piece of advice I would give you however is to approach sharing what you believe to be true with a little more humility and love, remember your audience, be open to opposing thoughts and the conversation will be much more productive. (I have to remind myself of this frequently which is why I know) Alternatively I can also tell you from experience that if you proceed as you have up to this point the spirit of contention will rage, heels will dig in on both sides, and most likely the only fruit will be frustration.

[Parture]

Parture: "You don't know the famous quote "after all you can do..." so that is not grace."



That quote pairs nicely from another one that we believe in the Book of Mormon:

Alma 24:11 And now behold, my brethren, since it has been all that we could do (as we were the most lost of all mankind) to repent of all our sins ...., for it was all we could do to repent sufficiently before God that he would take away our stain—

Under the heading “2 Nephi 25:23—We Are Saved by Grace, after All We Can Do”, the currently used CES manual Book of Mormon Student Study Guide reads,

“We are saved by the power of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. We must, however, come unto Christ on His terms in order to obtain all the blessings that He freely offers us. We come unto Christ by doing “all we can do” to remember Him, keep our covenants with Him, and obey His commandments (see D&C 20:77, 79; see also Abraham 3:25).” (p. 53)

The quote has nothing to do with our works actually saving us. To understand what it is really saying and how we really feel about grace I recommend the following:

And

Synopsis of Mormon Salvation
You cannot be saved in your sins, (The Book of Mormon, Alma 11:37).
By grace you are saved, after all you can do, (2 Nephi 25:23).
You must give your best, (The Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, p.354.)
You must deny yourselves of all ungodliness, (Moroni 10:32).
Turn from all former sins and commit them no more, (Teachings of the Presidents of the Church: Wilford Woodruff, pp.71-72).
If you commit any past sin again, the former sins return, (D&C 82:7).
Therefore, in order to remain forgiven you must never commit the sin again, (Mormon Missionary Discussion F, Uniform System for Teaching Families. 1981, p.36).

John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.”
Rom. 3:28, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.”
Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"
Rom. 9:30, "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith."
Rom. 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."

[Parture]

The Christian can never lose salvation. A Christian was born-again. God regenerated my spirit, gave me a spirit of eternal life and the Holy Spirit to indwell my spirit, once saved always saved.

The Mormon though show his salvation is by works in all he can do explains why the Mormon admittedly could lose salvation.

Therein lies the difference. One is real and secure, the other is based on works like temple work and baptizing and helping the poor to know if one is saved, and if they tire of it, and leave it, they lose their perceived salvation.