How are Humans Created in Mormonism

[Parture]

I was wondering about how humans are created in Mormonism. As I understand it Mormons believe there is an infinite regress of nature, including Gods creating Gods in which God the Father had a Father God and that God had a Father God going back into an eternity of the past regression of cause and effects.

I was told that God the Father and the Goddess Mother had sexual relations because they are human beings in which they produced billions of spirit babies (or spirit adults) from what they call intelligences and pre-existing material. Joseph Smith said as man is God once was and as God is man may become.

These spirit beings are then put into human bodies on earth and other previous planets for an eternity into the past even though the universe is finite, only 13.8 billion years old. Not sure how to reconcile that.

To contrast Christianity, God is not limited by pre-existing matter because that would be an idol exalting matter and time itself over God. So in Christianity God created time and space; space and time and matter did not always exist. Out of God's prerogative God chose to create time, space and matter; therefore God is One Being who transcends all: God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, love, righteous and holy.

And we see the operations of God's being in the Father, Son and Spirit. God was not always Father, Son and Spirit. He manifested Himself to us from the Parts or Persons that make up God to show us how to live and for Jesus to die for us. Persons should not be used to identify God as persons in the human sense for that is limiting God severely; rather Persons is a transcendant term we derive from seeing how God never confuses the 3 Parts or Persons. Since He revealed Himself this way in the Scriptures we must not extend beyond that by shrinking God into 3 beings, nor making God a person withe modes. Both miss the mark.

[abijah]

Welcome, firstly!

Joseph Smith never said "as man is God once was and as God is man may become".

What I'm not sure how to reconcile is how you feel you know what "the Universe" actually is, and that you comprehend the concept of Time. How do you know this "Universe" is naught but a small portion of something much larger and yet undiscovered? Perhaps one ought not lean on the understanding of the flesh.

Your point that Mormon theology suggests Matter > God on the basis that matter is eternal doesn't make sense. Mormons also say God is eternal...therefore rendering the argument irrelevant, as He is every bit as "pre-existing" in the sense that matter is. And how do you even know what matter is? Does not matter have spirit? Is not a spirit a living thing? Do not all living things multiply and beget after their likeness? If all things are defined by their generations, why would one presume Matter would be any different?

The universal pattern established by God from the Beginning was for all things to multiply and create after their likeness. If you deny this then you deny the Creation episode in Genesis. God is no different, and has a Child, who grows up and likewise takes up His Father's mantle of "God". It's as simple as the basic family unit, whereas the convoluted notions of "Christianity" sound to me like drunken fanfiction.

The "Christian" concept of the trinitarian "God" is heresy. To make a loving, exalted Man, Husband and Father so incomprehensible and obscured is the greatest victory of the devil to date. There is not one great non-One, but Three; and they are of one Line and Heritage.

[Parture]

"Both the "Journal of Discourses" (JOD) and the "Teachings
of the Prophet Joseph Smith" (TPJS) record that, on April
6, 1844, LDS Church founder Joseph Smith preached to a
congregation of 20,000 saying, "Here then is eternal life -
to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to
learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and
priests to God the same as all Gods have done before you"
(JOD 6:4; TPJS p.346)."

Also I don't believe in an infinite regress of nature, because by that definition you would have had an eternity to come into being before now, so you should have already happened. In Mormonism there is no beginning just an infinite regress of nature like Atheists believe also, and gods creating gods.

I think various religions and sects try to diminish who Jesus is and distort Him and the gospel because they don't went to true reconciliation with God to repent to the cross as helpless sinners to receive the Lord Jesus as Savior the Jesus who is the 2nd Person of the Trinity who brought all things into existence, including time and space. They want a diminished lesser Christ and one where you work for salvation rather than salvation by faith alone. Pride thinks it can work it out when God declares you can't because you are a sinner. So no eternal progression.

Scientists have a pretty good handle on time and space. They are intricate to each other.

[Finrock]

God is All in All and has existed forever. God created spirit bodies for us and physical bodies. Spirit and element are both eternal in nature. Opposition in all things is an eternal principle. You can't have good without the possibility of evil. There is no spirit without element. There is no darkness without light. And so on...

I wouldn't worry too much about "infinite regress" philosophies. They don't accurately describe reality and you can't really understand the nature of eternity and these types of realities unaided by the Holy Ghost and even then there are things that we just can't or won't be able to understand during mortality.

There is no salvation without Jesus. We can't be saved by our works. All that we can do is have a broken heart and a contrite spirit. We must rely wholly and completely on the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ in order to have salvation. We are hopeless sinners and we can't work our way in to salvation by the law.

-Finrock

[abijah]

"Both the "Journal of Discourses" (JOD) and the "Teachings
of the Prophet Joseph Smith" (TPJS) record that, on April
6, 1844, LDS Church founder Joseph Smith preached to a
congregation of 20,000 saying, "Here then is eternal life -
to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to
learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and
priests to God the same as all Gods have done before you"
(JOD 6:4; TPJS p.346)."

Also I don't believe in an infinite regress of nature, because by that definition you would have had an eternity to come into being before now, so you should have already happened. In Mormonism there is no beginning just an infinite regress of nature like Atheists believe also, and gods creating gods.

Not sure what you're referring to with "like Atheists believe also" - I personally never met an atheist who believed in eternal progression. But this idea of generations, of "gods creating gods" is the most fundamental and basic pattern in the world, again going back to the very start of Genesis. Earthly things are but a shadow of heavenly things. On this world, men are born, they grow up and they have children. In heaven, it's the exact same.

I think various religions and sects try to diminish who Jesus is and distort Him and the gospel because they don't went to true reconciliation with God to repent to the cross as helpless sinners to receive the Lord Jesus as Savior the Jesus who is the 2nd Person of the Trinity who brought all things into existence, including time and space. They want a diminished lesser Christ and one where you work for salvation rather than salvation by faith alone. Pride thinks it can work it out when God declares you can't because you are a sinner. So no eternal progression.

I've heard from Christians before that the "Mormon Jesus" is a diminished version from theirs. I disagree, and would state that the "Jesus" worshiped in christendom is a different Jesus than the one of the New Testament. Christ said false teachers would arise, and they did, which is why we have so many people who believe in Christ in spirit, but not in truth. He said it wasn't enough to just worship God sincerely. You need to have a correct understanding of Him, or you're worshiping something else and in vain. In my opinion, the God taught by Joseph Smith is an infinitely greater God than the Post-New Testament "Great Nothingness" being touted as the one we are supposed to call "Father".

Scientists have a pretty good handle on time and space. They are intricate to each other.

Personally I disagree, but to each their own.

Though we may not see eye-to-eye I find your perspective on this board refreshing! Thanks for posting your thoughts.

[Robin Hood]

Mormonism creates humans?
Well I never. You learn something every day.

[Sarah]

"Both the "Journal of Discourses" (JOD) and the "Teachings
of the Prophet Joseph Smith" (TPJS) record that, on April
6, 1844, LDS Church founder Joseph Smith preached to a
congregation of 20,000 saying, "Here then is eternal life -
to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to
learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and
priests to God the same as all Gods have done before you"
(JOD 6:4; TPJS p.346)."

Also I don't believe in an infinite regress of nature, because by that definition you would have had an eternity to come into being before now, so you should have already happened. In Mormonism there is no beginning just an infinite regress of nature like Atheists believe also, and gods creating gods.

I think various religions and sects try to diminish who Jesus is and distort Him and the gospel because they don't went to true reconciliation with God to repent to the cross as helpless sinners to receive the Lord Jesus as Savior the Jesus who is the 2nd Person of the Trinity who brought all things into existence, including time and space. They want a diminished lesser Christ and one where you work for salvation rather than salvation by faith alone. Pride thinks it can work it out when God declares you can't because you are a sinner. So no eternal progression.

Scientists have a pretty good handle on time and space. They are intricate to each other.

We also believe that we cannot gain salvation by works alone. We rely on the grace, mercy and power of Jesus Christ to save us. But we do believe that when we repent and are baptized (which are works), that we promise to follow him and keep his commandments (which I assume you have a problem with). We essentially become his servants, and not grudgingly. And indeed, as the scriptures say, we will be judged by our works AND our hearts and whether or not we are doing things for the right reasons. I don't think we Mormons differ from main-stream Christians all that much regarding Christ's role as our Savior, but rather our understanding of repentance, obedience, commandments, and authority.

[David13]

Mormonism creates humans?
Well I never. You learn something every day.

i'm confused on this one. I would think they create them in the usual manner, the old, well, Hoodie, you may not know this but there is a burger joint name after it. Yes, In N Out Burger.

In case any did not get it, I mean, I think they create or make them in the old fashioned in n out method, oh, I guess with a little more in, than out.
dc

[Sarah]

John 10
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Psalm 82
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

[roycelerwick]

Welcome, firstly!

Joseph Smith never said "as man is God once was and as God is man may become".

Yes, and that never was canon. Neither was anything in the Journal of Discourses. Neither was half of the crap Brigham Young had to say about anything. But what is canon is, intelligence cannot be "created." Human beings are the product of organizing matter into a physical vessel in which a co-eternal intelligence can take what we call "human" form. So, no, the whole concept of eternal pro-creation is not really all that well defined in LDS actual theology, meaning canon scripture. And no, anything a prophet or anyone else rambled on about is not necessarily canon or "doctrine."

[Parture]

God is All in All and has existed forever. God created spirit bodies for us and physical bodies. Spirit and element are both eternal in nature. Opposition in all things is an eternal principle. You can't have good without the possibility of evil. There is no spirit without element. There is no darkness without light. And so on...

I wouldn't worry too much about "infinite regress" philosophies. They don't accurately describe reality and you can't really understand the nature of eternity and these types of realities unaided by the Holy Ghost and even then there are things that we just can't or won't be able to understand during mortality.

There is no salvation without Jesus. We can't be saved by our works. All that we can do is have a broken heart and a contrite spirit. We must rely wholly and completely on the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ in order to have salvation. We are hopeless sinners and we can't work our way in to salvation by the law.

-Finrock

Did all the Father Gods exist forever in the past? If a spirit being whom became mortal had to progess to Godhood did he always exist and always exist as God?

We don't neeed evil, it is not necessary to have evil. Evil, rather is the consequences of rebellion aginst God.

The problem is Mormons teach and infinite regress of cause and effects of nature and Gods creating Gods out of material/intelligences/whatever so while you might want to shut your mind down about this it is their teaching. They say time always existed so time, space and nature always existed just like atheism, but not like Christianity, for in Christianity God brought time and space and matter into existence. Can your god do that?

Mormons teach you are saved by grace only after all you can do. That is salvation by works, not by faith alone. The reason why faith alone is so important is because you're a sinner who can't work out his salvation since you are the problem being a sinner. That's why God intervenes and pays the penalty to save whosoever beleiveth.

[Parture]

"Both the "Journal of Discourses" (JOD) and the "Teachings
of the Prophet Joseph Smith" (TPJS) record that, on April
6, 1844, LDS Church founder Joseph Smith preached to a
congregation of 20,000 saying, "Here then is eternal life -
to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to
learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and
priests to God the same as all Gods have done before you"
(JOD 6:4; TPJS p.346)."

Also I don't believe in an infinite regress of nature, because by that definition you would have had an eternity to come into being before now, so you should have already happened. In Mormonism there is no beginning just an infinite regress of nature like Atheists believe also, and gods creating gods.

Not sure what you're referring to with "like Atheists believe also" - I personally never met an atheist who believed in eternal progression. But this idea of generations, of "gods creating gods" is the most fundamental and basic pattern in the world, again going back to the very start of Genesis. Earthly things are but a shadow of heavenly things. On this world, men are born, they grow up and they have children. In heaven, it's the exact same.

I think various religions and sects try to diminish who Jesus is and distort Him and the gospel because they don't went to true reconciliation with God to repent to the cross as helpless sinners to receive the Lord Jesus as Savior the Jesus who is the 2nd Person of the Trinity who brought all things into existence, including time and space. They want a diminished lesser Christ and one where you work for salvation rather than salvation by faith alone. Pride thinks it can work it out when God declares you can't because you are a sinner. So no eternal progression.

I've heard from Christians before that the "Mormon Jesus" is a diminished version from theirs. I disagree, and would state that the "Jesus" worshiped in christendom is a different Jesus than the one of the New Testament. Christ said false teachers would arise, and they did, which is why we have so many people who believe in Christ in spirit, but not in truth. He said it wasn't enough to just worship God sincerely. You need to have a correct understanding of Him, or you're worshiping something else and in vain. In my opinion, the God taught by Joseph Smith is an infinitely greater God than the Post-New Testament "Great Nothingness" being touted as the one we are supposed to call "Father".

Scientists have a pretty good handle on time and space. They are intricate to each other.

Personally I disagree, but to each their own.

Though we may not see eye-to-eye I find your perspective on this board refreshing! Thanks for posting your thoughts.

Atheists believe in an infinite regress of nature and time from the past as do Mormons. So Mormonism is really just a sugar coated religious overlaid form of Atheism. Whereas in Christianity God brings time and space into existence, something the Mormon gods could never do.

The Bible says there is no marriage in heaven.

[Parture]

Mormonism creates humans?
Well I never. You learn something every day.

So you're saying the Mormon gods did not create humans? Who created humans then?

[Serragon]

Mormons teach you are saved by grace only after all you can do.

No. You teach that Mormons teach that. You added the word only which does not appear in scripture. It is simply to bolster your own pre-conceived notions. What this actually means is that no matter how many good works we do, our salvation is entirely dependent upon the Grace of Christ.

23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

That is salvation by works, not by faith alone. The reason why faith alone is so important is because you're a sinner who can't work out his salvation since you are the problem being a sinner. That's why God intervenes and pays the penalty to save whosoever beleiveth.

Believing is a work. Faith is a work. By your own words you also believe that salvation requires some works. You say you cannot work out your salvation because you are a sinner. But isn't the need to believe and have faith requiring you to work some things out? Your doctrine appears to be confusing with no firm principles.


I have a question for you. Do you believe that you might be incorrect and that the Mormon view of the Gospel of Christ could be correct? It is important to know whether you are seeking truth through discussion or just here to argue. Both are welcome. It is just good to get things out in the open. It appears from your original post that you might be the latter posing as the former which seems dishonest to me.

[Parture]

We also believe that we cannot gain salvation by works alone. We rely on the grace, mercy and power of Jesus Christ to save us. But we do believe that when we repent and are baptized (which are works), that we promise to follow him and keep his commandments (which I assume you have a problem with). We essentially become his servants, and not grudgingly. And indeed, as the scriptures say, we will be judged by our works AND our hearts and whether or not we are doing things for the right reasons. I don't think we Mormons differ from main-stream Christians all that much regarding Christ's role as our Savior, but rather our understanding of repentance, obedience, commandments, and authority.

Salvation can't occur with works at all. Salvation is by faith alone, because no amount of works will ever suffice. You're not relying on mercy and grace if you are saved only after all you can do. You're never quite satisfied.

Baptism comes after salvation not before so you are not saved by baptism.

Baptism is a symbolic gesture of dying to the world going down into the water with Christ and coming up out of the water in resurrection new life. Baptism is a sense one no longer belongs to the world because they have died to the world going down in the water with Christ. If you haven't died with the true Christ you can't be baptized.

The works you are judged by are to show no works can save you; and the works are rewarded once saved to those who overcometh; they get to return with Christ and reign over the nations for 1000 years. Though all Christians are saved, not all Christians receive this reward.

The foundational difference between Christianity and Mormonism is that Jesus in the Trinity created all things and is all knowing; wheras the gods of Mormonism could never do that. Also we like being saved by the uncreated Creator who is qualified only to atone for sins. If your god is not uncreated he can't compete with God of the Bible.

[Serragon]

So Mormonism is really just a sugar coated religious overlaid form of Atheism.

There are a lot of crazy things said on this board. But this has to be about the dumbest thing I have read here.

[Parture]

John 10
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Psalm 82
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

Jesus is God, the 2nd Person of the Trinity, not another being. Jesus is referring to gods in the sense of leaders of a community, not in the sense of ethereal gods of Mormonism.

[Parture]

Mormons teach you are saved by grace only after all you can do.

No. You teach that Mormons teach that. You added the word only which does not appear in scripture. It is simply to bolster your own pre-conceived notions. What this actually means is that no matter how many good works we do, our salvation is entirely dependent upon the Grace of Christ.

23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

That is salvation by works, not by faith alone. The reason why faith alone is so important is because you're a sinner who can't work out his salvation since you are the problem being a sinner. That's why God intervenes and pays the penalty to save whosoever beleiveth.

Believing is a work. Faith is a work. By your own words you also believe that salvation requires some works. You say you cannot work out your salvation because you are a sinner. But isn't the need to believe and have faith requiring you to work some things out? Your doctrine appears to be confusing with no firm principles.


I have a question for you. Do you believe that you might be incorrect and that the Mormon view of the Gospel of Christ could be correct? It is important to know whether you are seeking truth through discussion or just here to argue. Both are welcome. It is just good to get things out in the open. It appears from your original post that you might be the latter posing as the former which seems dishonest to me.

Faith is not a work. Faith and works are contrasted.

Are faith and works contrasted as opposites? "By grace are ye saved, through faith;...not of works" (Eph. 2.8-9); "But to him that worketh not, but believeth..." (Rom. 4.5).

You don't know the famous quote "after all you can do..." so that is not grace.

[Serragon]

Salvation can't occur with works at all. Salvation is by faith alone, because no amount of works will ever suffice.

Faith is a work.

Baptism comes after salvation not before so you are not saved by baptism.

The Bible disagrees.

Baptism is a symbolic gesture of dying to the world going down into the water with Christ and coming up out of the water in resurrection new life. Baptism is a sense one no longer belongs to the world because they have died to the world going down in the water with Christ. If you haven't died with the true Christ you can't be baptized.

The works you are judged by are to show no works can save you; and the works are rewarded once saved to those who overcometh; they get to return with Christ and reign over the nations for 1000 years. Though all Christians are saved, not all Christians receive this reward.

The foundational difference between Christianity and Mormonism is that Jesus in the Trinity created all things and is all knowing; wheras the gods of Mormonism could never do that. Also we like being saved by the uncreated Creator who is qualified only to atone for sins. If your god is not uncreated he can't compete with God of the Bible.

It is always interesting that people like Parture will argue that your doctrine is wrong because it isn't in the bible, but then go off for 3 paragraphs on their own non-biblical interpretations of things and pretend they are doctrine.

[Serragon]

Mormons teach you are saved by grace only after all you can do.

No. You teach that Mormons teach that. You added the word only which does not appear in scripture. It is simply to bolster your own pre-conceived notions. What this actually means is that no matter how many good works we do, our salvation is entirely dependent upon the Grace of Christ.

23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

That is salvation by works, not by faith alone. The reason why faith alone is so important is because you're a sinner who can't work out his salvation since you are the problem being a sinner. That's why God intervenes and pays the penalty to save whosoever beleiveth.

Believing is a work. Faith is a work. By your own words you also believe that salvation requires some works. You say you cannot work out your salvation because you are a sinner. But isn't the need to believe and have faith requiring you to work some things out? Your doctrine appears to be confusing with no firm principles.


I have a question for you. Do you believe that you might be incorrect and that the Mormon view of the Gospel of Christ could be correct? It is important to know whether you are seeking truth through discussion or just here to argue. Both are welcome. It is just good to get things out in the open. It appears from your original post that you might be the latter posing as the former which seems dishonest to me.

Faith is not a work. Faith and works are contrasted.

Are faith and works contrasted as opposites? "By grace are ye saved, through faith;...not of works" (Eph. 2.8-9); "But to him that worketh not, but believeth..." (Rom. 4.5).

You don't know the famous quote "after all you can do..." so that is not grace.

Paul is talking about the Law of Moses specifically here. Faith is in fact a work. It requires some action on your part.

I do know the famous quote. I even posted the scripture. You just ignored it. You do not understand the actual words or its meaning. It does not mean what you think it means.

[Zathura]

God is All in All and has existed forever. God created spirit bodies for us and physical bodies. Spirit and element are both eternal in nature. Opposition in all things is an eternal principle. You can't have good without the possibility of evil. There is no spirit without element. There is no darkness without light. And so on...

I wouldn't worry too much about "infinite regress" philosophies. They don't accurately describe reality and you can't really understand the nature of eternity and these types of realities unaided by the Holy Ghost and even then there are things that we just can't or won't be able to understand during mortality.

There is no salvation without Jesus. We can't be saved by our works. All that we can do is have a broken heart and a contrite spirit. We must rely wholly and completely on the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ in order to have salvation. We are hopeless sinners and we can't work our way in to salvation by the law.

-Finrock

Did all the Father Gods exist forever in the past? If a spirit being whom became mortal had to progess to Godhood did he always exist and always exist as God?

We don't neeed evil, it is not necessary to have evil. Evil, rather is the consequences of rebellion aginst God.

The problem is Mormons teach and infinite regress of cause and effects of nature and Gods creating Gods out of material/intelligences/whatever so while you might want to shut your mind down about this it is their teaching.huh? They say time always existed so time, space and nature always existed just like atheism, but not like Christianity, for in Christianity God brought time and space and matter into existence. Can your god do that? Our God is your God

Mormons teach you are saved by grace only after all you can do.False, we teach that we are saved IN SPITE of all we do. A Church Authority talked about this in a talk if you’d like it That is salvation by works, not by faith alone. The reason why faith alone is so important is because you're a sinner who can't work out his salvation since you are the problem being a sinner. That's why God intervenes and pays the penalty to save whosoever beleiveth. we are with you. Faith is perfected by works, as James 2:18 says

Instead of arguing about tenets , let’s help others come unto Christ. Let’s help others to exercise faith in Christ so that they can receive Gods grace, that they can have the Spirit come upon them with power that their nature can be changed and become sons and daughters of God. Let’s pray and rejoice .

[Parture]

Let's be careful of false Christs. Jesus created all things. The Mormon Jesus did not. Only the uncreated Creator can atone for sins, not some lesser being who did not create time and space.

[Parture]

Why she left Mormonism and gave her life to Christ.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhaAz3SeBLA

Why this Mormon Apologist who wrote a book in defense of Mormonism left Mormonism and became a Christian.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnjmeDR2WZQ&t=4s

[Parture]

You never see Christians ever becoming Mormons but lots of Mormons turn from Mormonism to believe in Christ as Christians. It's because the love is seen that was never seen before in the God portrayed in Mormonism.

[drtanner]

Parture: "You don't know the famous quote "after all you can do..." so that is not grace."



That quote pairs nicely from another one that we believe in the Book of Mormon:

Alma 24:11 And now behold, my brethren, since it has been all that we could do (as we were the most lost of all mankind) to repent of all our sins ...., for it was all we could do to repent sufficiently before God that he would take away our stain—