Mormon Leaks Interview Discussion

[Silver Pie]

stir up controversy.

I am sure this is 100% true.

[AI2.0]

Christ is who I look to regarding this - not Moses, and not Joseph Smith (though he taught differently than how it is now), nor do I look to other men in high positions.

Maybe you guys are unfamiliar with Christ’s teachings because I notice the focus tends to be the Book of Mormon, D&C and church leaders.

I'm LDS and have been all my life. As a member of the CofJCofLDS, I think I'm pretty familiar with Christ's teachings and I think that's precisely because not only do I read the New Testament, but I read the Book of Mormon, D&C and listen to church leaders who all teach and preach Christ and his teachings. I can understand someone who is not familiar with LDS teachings suggesting that LDS might be 'unfamiliar' with Christ's teachings, but I'd expect someone who is LDS to not make such a clearly false assumption.

In reading your posts, I don't believe you understand the purpose and role of tithing. It wasn't just Moses or Joseph Smith or even Jesus Christ who told us to tithe one tenth, it was our Heavenly Father. Tithing is an eternal law and is found in the most ancient of scriptures, the Old Testament and it's not about money. I know from past posts, that your refusal to pay tithing cost you your recommend and I'm sorry for you, but that was your choice. The decision was made by a prophet of God, decades ago, that paying a full tithe would be part of the worthiness requirement for entering the Lord's temples. You don't agree with that, but it's not your stewardship. It's your stewardship to live the commandments and teachings as they are laid out for you by the Lord's servants on earth. That's the way it's done in the church, that's the way it was meant to be by the Lord who restored his church on the earth.


You absolutely have the right to choose not to pay tithing, but please be careful in your rationalizations that you don't tell yourself things that are not true. If a person wants to truly come to know Jesus Christ, they should read all his scriptures as well as the words of those called to represent him as his servants/watchmen on earth.

[Thinker]

AI2,
Thank you for your comments. It’s understandable that you might feel obligated to follow human beings over God, because it’s been tradition for a while - maybe always. That’s why Moses was inspired to give the 1st of the basic, lower commandments - to not have other gods before God. That meant, even Moses was not above God - so whatever he (and other scripture authors) told you, needs to be studied, thought through and prayed about to see if it is of God.

Jesus also taught that the greatest commandments were to love God (& as we love others we love God) & to love others as ourselves... “on these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.” That means that if a prophet commands you to ignore the poor in tithes, if you are following Christ’s teachings, you prioritize the greatest commandments because they are important above all. Christ is not Jesus’s last name but what he became and encouraged us to follow him and become. So I try.

[jadd]

AI2,
Thank you for your comments. It’s understandable that you might feel obligated to follow human beings over God, because it’s been tradition for a while - maybe always. That’s why Moses was inspired to give the 1st of the basic, lower commandments - to not have other gods before God. That meant, even Moses was not above God - so whatever he (and other scripture authors) told you, needs to be studied, thought through and prayed about to see if it is of God.

Jesus also taught that the greatest commandments were to love God (& as we love others we love God) & to love others as ourselves... “on these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.” That means that if a prophet commands you to ignore the poor in tithes, if you are following Christ’s teachings, you prioritize the greatest commandments because they are important above all. Christ is not Jesus’s last name but what he became and encouraged us to follow him and become. So I try.

What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.” (D&C 1:38)

Also, Saul and his expulsion from being a king is a good example of the Lord teaching us that to obey is better than sacrifice. Now to be clear I am not advocating that we follow blindly. In fact I have argued with Bishops and I would have no problem arguing with Apostles or Stake Presidents if given the chance over certain points of the gospel. That being said, in they end they do have stewardship over the church. IF what they are teaching is incorrect about tithes, the condemnation will fall on their heads. Now If the Lord were to tell me to stop paying tithes I would first ensure that I was completely virtuous and pure in heart- but I could only do that by having the gift of discerning of spirits. When I had the gift I would ensure that it was correct and I was not deceived, and the only way to know that is by having a completely virtuous heart (circular I know, but you can't have hope without faith and you can't have faith without hope either). Only by having a virtuous and pure heart can we know that we are not being deceived. Then I would ask the Lord to confirm that he was telling me not to pay tithing if that was from him or some other source. Then I would ask Him for how long.
Often, just like in the church, we fail to seek when to end something for example one of our biggest failures is constantly seeking the Lord's direction for who to call, but we rarely ask the Lord for guidance on when to release.
So maybe we are living a lesser law right now because we as members are failing to live up to the expectations of God because we, just like the people of Moses, are too afraid to seek the face of God.

However, we better be dang sure that if we are getting direction from the Lord that is opposite of the direction that the Lord has given us from the current prophets (who help point us in the direction of Christ) - that it really is from the Lord. IF it is then from the Lord, then you better follow it and glory in the persecution you might receive - don't be bitter about it. Another thought - even if 1/3 is to go to the poor as you claim, make sure that you are glorifying yourself by "following the law" when maybe the LOrd is asking you to just follow the current tradition of 10%. Which is better in the LOrd's eyes helping the poor in spirit (in the temple i.e. the dead) or the living. Just make sure you are actually doing what you are supposed to be doing and not falling on your own sword so to speak because of pride because you see a huge mote in the churches eye, but not the beam in your own (i'm not saying you are doing that, but it is good self- reflection).

Furthermore, you are correct we are to follow Christ, but do you not know that God sends angels to guide us? If we follow the angelic guides (both physical and spiritual) are we not following the Savior anymore? I think not. Constant prayer and direction to Him is important, but don't reject those servants he has sent to help us find Him. Whether we like it or not those in positions of authority in the CHurch have keys - if they use them incorrectly God will curse them, not us. Our Job is to keep our eye single to the Glory of God. What is his glory? Eternal life. So our job is to keep our eye (thoughts) on God so that we can help all others obtain eternal life. What is the best way? I doubt tithing is at the top of the list right now (unless God told you to focus on that). I bet it would be to help people actually develop a true faith in the HOly One of Israel so that they might repent. Most of us lack sufficient faith to survive the coming years (I will probably include myself in that - because I am refusing to sacrifice the things of the world). However, I do know htat teaching people to believe in Christ and to discover HIm and what true charity is, is the first principle of the gospel and the one I will adhere to whilst here.

El Fin

[Thinker]

Hi Jadd,
Even though I see things differently than you, I do like how you put some things. You seem to have some self-reflection and encourage it in others, which I think is awesome.

Figuring out what God’s will is... may borrow from others. No need to reinvent the wheel. But ultimately it’s up to us each to discover for ourselves.

As we were agreeing in another thread, spirituality requires a balance - like yin and yang, or Carl Jung’s animus & anima...logic/reason is as important as emotion/intuition. I realize not everything is symbolic - ie Proverbs gives a lot of straight forward advise. And I don’t consider any one person or group (not even the group who wrote/edited scriptures) to be all-knowing gods. God gave us brains to think & figure things out. JP suggested Michelangelo’s portrayal of God (I AM THAT I AM) seems to be outlined by the shape of a brain. As Jesus (& Buddha) taught, “the kingdom of God is within you.”

[jadd]

Hi Jadd,
Even though I see things differently than you, I do like how you put some things. You seem to have some self-reflection and encourage it in others, which I think is awesome.

Figuring out what God’s will is... may borrow from others. No need to reinvent the wheel. But ultimately it’s up to us each to discover for ourselves.

As we were agreeing in another thread, spirituality requires a balance - like yin and yang, or Carl Jung’s animus & anima...logic/reason is as important as emotion/intuition. I realize not everything is symbolic - ie Proverbs gives a lot of straight forward advise. And I don’t consider any one person or group (not even the group who wrote/edited scriptures) to be all-knowing gods. God gave us brains to think & figure things out. JP suggested Michelangelo’s portrayal of God (I AM THAT I AM) seems to be outlined by the shape of a brain. As Jesus (& Buddha) taught, “the kingdom of God is within you.”

Thank you, Thinker!

I agree with much of what you said - as I'm reading over your posts I think the main difference between us (from my perspective which I freely admit may be wrong) is that I see scriptures as both literal and symbolic in almost all things and I think (again please feel free to correct me if I"m wrong) you view them largely symbolically, though you do believe in some literal aspects yourself it is not to the extent in which I believe. In fact there was a thread a while back with George Clay, I think, in which I express something similar to what you are saying now about God being within us (and therefore His Kingdom)

That being said, I can't condemn you for it (nor do I wish to do so) because at some point in my life I viewed things somewhat similarly to you. It wasn't until the last few years (because of personal spiritual experiences dealing with dark and light forces beyond the veil) that I began to see that things were much more literal than I had believed. Yet the Symbolism was also much more vast than expected as well. Needless to say, it was a shock to me. As an aside this paragraph is not intended to sound paternalistic (the logical fallacy in regards to that word) or condescending, but I freely admit it could be read that way.

To help you understand a bit about my own perspective on things. I've spent months pondering over whether I have forced myself to experience things similar to what I had experienced - the mind is a powerful thing and we often force ourselves to feel emotions. It was only through deep self reflection and internal brain and heart raking approaches that I was able to figure out whether it came from me or from some other source. I looked at my life and all that was occurring around those experiences to see if I had subconsciously created for myself a spiritual experience. However in these cases, my mind was not in that state to have caused myself to feel such a thing. Anyways I guess that I a long way of saying that is partly (there are many other experiences) why I understand what you are saying even though I don't agree with all of it.

I've also had great discussions with individuals who think like you - it keeps me on my toes even though I may vehemently disagree on certain topics. So thank you for engaging me and I truly do appreciate your responses. I would venture to guess that in many ways you are much more humble than myself.

[Juliet]

Hi Jadd,
Even though I see things differently than you, I do like how you put some things. You seem to have some self-reflection and encourage it in others, which I think is awesome.

Figuring out what God’s will is... may borrow from others. No need to reinvent the wheel. But ultimately it’s up to us each to discover for ourselves.

As we were agreeing in another thread, spirituality requires a balance - like yin and yang, or Carl Jung’s animus & anima...logic/reason is as important as emotion/intuition. I realize not everything is symbolic - ie Proverbs gives a lot of straight forward advise. And I don’t consider any one person or group (not even the group who wrote/edited scriptures) to be all-knowing gods. God gave us brains to think & figure things out. JP suggested Michelangelo’s portrayal of God (I AM THAT I AM) seems to be outlined by the shape of a brain. As Jesus (& Buddha) taught, “the kingdom of God is within you.”

Thank you, Thinker!

I agree with much of what you said - as I'm reading over your posts I think the main difference between us (from my perspective which I freely admit may be wrong) is that I see scriptures as both literal and symbolic in almost all things and I think (again please feel free to correct me if I"m wrong) you view them largely symbolically, though you do believe in some literal aspects yourself it is not to the extent in which I believe. In fact there was a thread a while back with George Clay, I think, in which I express something similar to what you are saying now about God being within us (and therefore His Kingdom)

That being said, I can't condemn you for it (nor do I wish to do so) because at some point in my life I viewed things somewhat similarly to you. It wasn't until the last few years (because of personal spiritual experiences dealing with dark and light forces beyond the veil) that I began to see that things were much more literal than I had believed. Yet the Symbolism was also much more vast than expected as well. Needless to say, it was a shock to me. As an aside this paragraph is not intended to sound paternalistic (the logical fallacy in regards to that word) or condescending, but I freely admit it could be read that way.

To help you understand a bit about my own perspective on things. I've spent months pondering over whether I have forced myself to experience things similar to what I had experienced - the mind is a powerful thing and we often force ourselves to feel emotions. It was only through deep self reflection and internal brain and heart raking approaches that I was able to figure out whether it came from me or from some other source. I looked at my life and all that was occurring around those experiences to see if I had subconsciously created for myself a spiritual experience. However in these cases, my mind was not in that state to have caused myself to feel such a thing. Anyways I guess that I a long way of saying that is partly (there are many other experiences) why I understand what you are saying even though I don't agree with all of it.

I've also had great discussions with individuals who think like you - it keeps me on my toes even though I may vehemently disagree on certain topics. So thank you for engaging me and I truly do appreciate your responses. I would venture to guess that in many ways you are much more humble than myself.

I am really glad you wrote this. I am going to start a thread on this topic, is it your imagination or is it God...

[sushi_chef]

as to tithing, oldest written principle in it would be for the poor....

"38. Him whom God had appointed to receive tithes for the poor.

39. Wherefore, Abram paid unto him tithes of all that he had, of all the riches which he possessed, which God had given him more than that which he had need.

40. And it came to pass, that God blessed Abram, and gave unto him riches, and honor, and lands for an everlasting possession; according to the covenant which he had made, and according to the blessing wherewith Melchizedek had blessed him.
" (jst genesis 14)

what if that princple still holds today??

"18 For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all ..." (moroni 8)

although church authorities say building up the latter-day kingdom on earth first, bit scarey, at least kinda robbing/stealing in malachi 3:8 legit??!!

[AI2.0]

AI2,
Thank you for your comments. It’s understandable that you might feel obligated to follow human beings over God, because it’s been tradition for a while - maybe always. That’s why Moses was inspired to give the 1st of the basic, lower commandments - to not have other gods before God. That meant, even Moses was not above God - so whatever he (and other scripture authors) told you, needs to be studied, thought through and prayed about to see if it is of God.

Jesus also taught that the greatest commandments were to love God (& as we love others we love God) & to love others as ourselves... “on these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.” That means that if a prophet commands you to ignore the poor in tithes, if you are following Christ’s teachings, you prioritize the greatest commandments because they are important above all. Christ is not Jesus’s last name but what he became and encouraged us to follow him and become. So I try.

We don't follow 'men' and it's not a tradition, but I do understand why you think this--most of the world perceives religion this way. You have adopted the world's way of thinking and seeing things. You've also likely been influenced and adopted views taught by our modern society, made popular by Marx and Engels; made palatable by being watered down and disguised as social justice type thinking.

God's ways are not man's ways, and men and women often misunderstand and misinterpret God's ways because they see them through the perceptions of men.

It's not a matter of 'lower laws' and 'higher laws'--they are both given by God and should be followed. And, if you haven't mastered the so-called 'lower laws', you aren't actually following what you perceive as the 'higher laws'. But, the world is made up of religious beliefs which are made up of philosophies of men, with some scriptures or doctrines thrown in. This is where 'prophets' are needed. They help us cut through the mists to find what is really from God and what is dross. Prophets have been a part of God's plan and how he deals with humans since the beginning of time, but the world's view is to dismiss, ridicule and even persecute the Prophets.

Tithes and Offerings. They are both required by God. My understanding is that the Tithes were to be used for the church and the offerings were to be used to care for the poor and this requirement was 1/10. A standing law forever, I believe it's been described in scripture. Am I incorrect in my understanding of this? I think that's the way it was done in Jesus' day, that's why beggars asked for alms and the people felt obligated to give.

As was pointed out by Shadow, tithe of 1/10 does not change, no matter if a person has a lot of wealth or very little. Even the poor are not exempt because it is through the payment of tithes that the Lord can open the 'windows of heaven' .

Tithing is not a matter of money, it's a matter of faith.

Living this law does not have to be hard, it is easy to live (whether rich or poor) for those who have faith and a testimony that it is a commandment of God.

[Mark]

"We don't follow 'men' and it's not a tradition, but I do understand why you think this--most of the world perceives religion this way. You have adopted the world's way of thinking and seeing things. You've also likely been influenced and adopted views taught by our modern society, made popular by Marx and Engels; made palatable by being watered down and disguised as social justice type thinking."

Touché AI2. Right back at her. Haha

[Thinker]

We don't follow 'men' and it's not a tradition, but I do understand why you think this--most of the world perceives religion this way. You have adopted the world's way of thinking and seeing things. You've also likely been influenced and adopted views taught by our modern society, made popular by Marx and Engels; made palatable by being watered down and disguised as social justice type thinking.

God's ways are not man's ways, and men and women often misunderstand and misinterpret God's ways because they see them through the perceptions of men.

It's not a matter of 'lower laws' and 'higher laws'--they are both given by God and should be followed. And, if you haven't mastered the so-called 'lower laws', you aren't actually following what you perceive as the 'higher laws'. But, the world is made up of religious beliefs which are made up of philosophies of men, with some scriptures or doctrines thrown in. This is where 'prophets' are needed. They help us cut through the mists to find what is really from God and what is dross. Prophets have been a part of God's plan and how he deals with humans since the beginning of time, but the world's view is to dismiss, ridicule and even persecute the Prophets.

Tithes and Offerings. They are both required by God. My understanding is that the Tithes were to be used for the church and the offerings were to be used to care for the poor and this requirement was 1/10. A standing law forever, I believe it's been described in scripture. Am I incorrect in my understanding of this? I think that's the way it was done in Jesus' day, that's why beggars asked for alms and the people felt obligated to give.

As was pointed out by Shadow, tithe of 1/10 does not change, no matter if a person has a lot of wealth or very little. Even the poor are not exempt because it is through the payment of tithes that the Lord can open the 'windows of heaven' .

Tithing is not a matter of money, it's a matter of faith.

Living this law does not have to be hard, it is easy to live (whether rich or poor) for those who have faith and a testimony that it is a commandment of God.

First you claim that "WE (that word implying group thought) don't follow men and it's not a tradition."
Then you explain the need of a man to interpret what is of God, and you suggest following men over Christ regarding finances.

BTW, Why do you jump to such conclusions about me that are contrary to what I have argued? I have argued against Marxism and Postmodernism. Just because I believe in worshipping God over anybody else, doesn't mean I like Marxism.

Well, I am not responsible for your spiritual well-being. I can share what I have learned through study, thinking, praying and feeling the spirit. But I won't worry too much after I do what I know is right. For several years now, we have shared our tithes with those in need where there is financial transparency. I feel good in doing what Christ repeatedly taught - and prioritizing loving God and others above all other laws and prophets.

[gardener4life]

You know from a side point of view, if I took everyone that read this thread in the last week and asked them how many of them had prayed about something recently, and how many of them had had answers to prayers recently probably most of them would raise their hand.

So that means if they are praying about their decision that they aren't following 'men'.

[Thinker]

God gave us brains to use to study and think as well as to pray.
If people feel shamed into reading only “churched approved” material, they may not even know about necessary truths with which to study, ponder and pray about.

God is a God of TRUTH and honesty in all dealings, including money.
Christ whipped people out of the temple when they were using it to make money.
Christ also reprimanded religious leaders for putting heavy burdens on those who followed them and for disobeying the greatest commandments- which are to love God (& as we love others we love God) and to love others as ourselves... “on these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.”

[gardener4life]

Why are you trying to get them to read other material other than what's church approved? Seems like you have a motive there. There's nothing wrong with church approved, and now suddenly we are expected to read stuff that is not inspired and 'of men' in order to be considered not following 'men'.

Nobody is shamed for not reading church material. I've never heard anything like that. People read a lot of stuff of all kinds and there's not any doctrine of 'only' being allowed to read scriptures.

[nightlight]

We don't follow 'men' and it's not a tradition, but I do understand why you think this--most of the world perceives religion this way. You have adopted the world's way of thinking and seeing things. You've also likely been influenced and adopted views taught by our modern society, made popular by Marx and Engels; made palatable by being watered down and disguised as social justice type thinking.

God's ways are not man's ways, and men and women often misunderstand and misinterpret God's ways because they see them through the perceptions of men.

It's not a matter of 'lower laws' and 'higher laws'--they are both given by God and should be followed. And, if you haven't mastered the so-called 'lower laws', you aren't actually following what you perceive as the 'higher laws'. But, the world is made up of religious beliefs which are made up of philosophies of men, with some scriptures or doctrines thrown in. This is where 'prophets' are needed. They help us cut through the mists to find what is really from God and what is dross. Prophets have been a part of God's plan and how he deals with humans since the beginning of time, but the world's view is to dismiss, ridicule and even persecute the Prophets.

Tithes and Offerings. They are both required by God. My understanding is that the Tithes were to be used for the church and the offerings were to be used to care for the poor and this requirement was 1/10. A standing law forever, I believe it's been described in scripture. Am I incorrect in my understanding of this? I think that's the way it was done in Jesus' day, that's why beggars asked for alms and the people felt obligated to give.

As was pointed out by Shadow, tithe of 1/10 does not change, no matter if a person has a lot of wealth or very little. Even the poor are not exempt because it is through the payment of tithes that the Lord can open the 'windows of heaven' .

Tithing is not a matter of money, it's a matter of faith.

Living this law does not have to be hard, it is easy to live (whether rich or poor) for those who have faith and a testimony that it is a commandment of God.

First you claim that "WE (that word implying group thought) don't follow men and it's not a tradition."
Then you explain the need of a man to interpret what is of God, and you suggest following men over Christ regarding finances.

BTW, Why do you jump to such conclusions about me that are contrary to what I have argued? I have argued against Marxism and Postmodernism. Just because I believe in worshipping God over anybody else, doesn't mean I like Marxism.

Well, I am not responsible for your spiritual well-being. I can share what I have learned through study, thinking, praying and feeling the spirit. But I won't worry too much after I do what I know is right. For several years now, we have shared our tithes with those in need where there is financial transparency. I feel good in doing what Christ repeatedly taught - and prioritizing loving God and others above all other laws and prophets.

Praying to the father only works if you pray in the name of Jesus Christ ,otherwise it falls on deaf ears. You cannot know God but through his son Jesus Christ, the savior of the world. And not your counterfeit Christ, the biblical Christ , the one who died on a tree and was resurrected. The same Christ who you teach is not God that we should not worship Him. You say it's unlikely that he died on the cross and was resurrected.You say there will be No Second Coming. Then you say you follow Christ ???? You tell me in private Jesus is not the savior that he did not die for our sins, that you used to believe this but have learned better and you're trying to wake people up ,that you have a moral/ spiritual obligation to share this.
You do not follow Jesus Christ. you use his words for your own agenda. I don't like to say this but I have a spiritual obligation. It's not right what you're doing.

[Thinker]

Why are you trying to get them to read other material other than what's church approved? Seems like you have a motive there. There's nothing wrong with church approved, and now suddenly we are expected to read stuff that is not inspired and 'of men' in order to be considered not following 'men'.

Nobody is shamed for not reading church material. I've never heard anything like that. People read a lot of stuff of all kinds and there's not any doctrine of 'only' being allowed to read scriptures.

Do you see how you contradicted yourself? First, you wrongfully accused me of trying to get others to read things that are not church approved.. then right after that, you claim that nobody is shamed for reading things that are not church-approved.

I hear all of the time, to avoid philosophies of men, or to avoid psychology/self help and focus only on scriptures and lds leaders. The other day, at church we were playing a game where you had to choose which of a series of various things (like war, dentist root canal, poverty & intellectuals) as the worst. They picked “intellectuals” as the worst, then gave me a dirty look, got up and left.

[AI2.0]

We don't follow 'men' and it's not a tradition, but I do understand why you think this--most of the world perceives religion this way. You have adopted the world's way of thinking and seeing things. You've also likely been influenced and adopted views taught by our modern society, made popular by Marx and Engels; made palatable by being watered down and disguised as social justice type thinking.

God's ways are not man's ways, and men and women often misunderstand and misinterpret God's ways because they see them through the perceptions of men.

It's not a matter of 'lower laws' and 'higher laws'--they are both given by God and should be followed. And, if you haven't mastered the so-called 'lower laws', you aren't actually following what you perceive as the 'higher laws'. But, the world is made up of religious beliefs which are made up of philosophies of men, with some scriptures or doctrines thrown in. This is where 'prophets' are needed. They help us cut through the mists to find what is really from God and what is dross. Prophets have been a part of God's plan and how he deals with humans since the beginning of time, but the world's view is to dismiss, ridicule and even persecute the Prophets.

Tithes and Offerings. They are both required by God. My understanding is that the Tithes were to be used for the church and the offerings were to be used to care for the poor and this requirement was 1/10. A standing law forever, I believe it's been described in scripture. Am I incorrect in my understanding of this? I think that's the way it was done in Jesus' day, that's why beggars asked for alms and the people felt obligated to give.

As was pointed out by Shadow, tithe of 1/10 does not change, no matter if a person has a lot of wealth or very little. Even the poor are not exempt because it is through the payment of tithes that the Lord can open the 'windows of heaven' .

Tithing is not a matter of money, it's a matter of faith.

Living this law does not have to be hard, it is easy to live (whether rich or poor) for those who have faith and a testimony that it is a commandment of God.

First you claim that "WE (that word implying group thought) don't follow men and it's not a tradition."
I used 'we' to mean members of the LDS church, I was assuming that you are still LDS, but was that assumption incorrect? If so, then I was wrong to include you as 'we' and I'm sorry for the error.
Then you explain the need of a man to interpret what is of God, and you suggest following men over Christ regarding finances.
No, I don't think I need to explain the 'need for a man' in this. It's as old as the Bible and for those who believe in the bible, they should naturally acknowledge that God called Prophets to speak on his behalf to his people. Moses was a man who gave commandments on tithing (which you've referred us to on occasion to attempt to bolster your interpretation) and instead of thinking they were 'following men over Christ', they believed they were following Christ, because they were heeding the counsel of his prophets.
I completely understand a person rejecting this if they don't believe in prophets or don't understand the role and purpose of prophets, but if you offer scriptural references from the Bible, then I assume you do have some understanding of prophets, so I'm confused at exactly what your position is. Do you reject all prophets or just the counsel of prophets you don't agree with? Maybe you need to think about this, Thinker. What about Peter, in the New Testament. Were the early Christians 'following men over Christ regarding finances' when they brought their worldly goods to offer to have all things common? Were they wrong to give Peter this authority, because from what you say, it sounds like you believe they were wrong to do this. Or, your simply inconsistent in your logic and your views.

BTW, Why do you jump to such conclusions about me that are contrary to what I have argued? I have argued against Marxism and Postmodernism. Just because I believe in worshipping God over anybody else, doesn't mean I like Marxism.
You may THINK you don't like 'Marxism', but I believe you've inadvertently adopted some of his views. This is rampant in today's society.

Well, I am not responsible for your spiritual well-being. I can share what I have learned through study, thinking, praying and feeling the spirit. But I won't worry too much after I do what I know is right. For several years now, we have shared our tithes with those in need where there is financial transparency. I feel good in doing what Christ repeatedly taught - and prioritizing loving God and others above all other laws and prophets.

I know you think you are doing what's right, and that's fine. You make your choices. But, you really need to be honest with yourself. A 'tithe' is not something YOU decide how to spend and distribute on your own. A 'tithe' is not an amount of money you decide you can part with. A true 'tithe' is one tenth of your income and it is paid to the Lord's authorized servant for the use of his 'only true and living church on the earth'. It's a commandment and was reiterated in D&C 119 By the Lord Jesus Christ himself as he restored it-- the 'tithing of my people', and that it would be 'a standing law unto them forever'. The fact is, for 'several years', you have not been paying tithing. You've been giving alms. It is not the same thing and please don't kid yourself. I'm sorry, but you were (and maybe still are LDS) so you were given the 'law', and therefore, you can't claim ignorance on not living this commandment.

[Thinker]

AI2,
I prioritize and worship God. I try to follow Christ as much as I can.
Christ taught parables like the sheep and goats comparing those who loved God by caring for those in need, they are blessed as sheep. And those who did not care for those in need will be damned as goats. He also taught of the good Samaritan and told a rich man to sell all he had to give to the poor to follow Christ. Jesus taught that above all commandments and above all prophets- to love God (& as we love others we love God) & love others as ourselves.

So, when a church keeps finances secret but admits that no tithes go to the poor, admitting tithing collectors are disobeying their responsibility and disobeying the greatest commandments, I cannot in good conscience follow that. When there is a discrepancy like that - a choice between following Christ and following church leaders, I choose Christ.

[nightlight]

We don't follow 'men' and it's not a tradition, but I do understand why you think this--most of the world perceives religion this way. You have adopted the world's way of thinking and seeing things. You've also likely been influenced and adopted views taught by our modern society, made popular by Marx and Engels; made palatable by being watered down and disguised as social justice type thinking.

God's ways are not man's ways, and men and women often misunderstand and misinterpret God's ways because they see them through the perceptions of men.

It's not a matter of 'lower laws' and 'higher laws'--they are both given by God and should be followed. And, if you haven't mastered the so-called 'lower laws', you aren't actually following what you perceive as the 'higher laws'. But, the world is made up of religious beliefs which are made up of philosophies of men, with some scriptures or doctrines thrown in. This is where 'prophets' are needed. They help us cut through the mists to find what is really from God and what is dross. Prophets have been a part of God's plan and how he deals with humans since the beginning of time, but the world's view is to dismiss, ridicule and even persecute the Prophets.

Tithes and Offerings. They are both required by God. My understanding is that the Tithes were to be used for the church and the offerings were to be used to care for the poor and this requirement was 1/10. A standing law forever, I believe it's been described in scripture. Am I incorrect in my understanding of this? I think that's the way it was done in Jesus' day, that's why beggars asked for alms and the people felt obligated to give.

As was pointed out by Shadow, tithe of 1/10 does not change, no matter if a person has a lot of wealth or very little. Even the poor are not exempt because it is through the payment of tithes that the Lord can open the 'windows of heaven' .

Tithing is not a matter of money, it's a matter of faith.

Living this law does not have to be hard, it is easy to live (whether rich or poor) for those who have faith and a testimony that it is a commandment of God.

First you claim that "WE (that word implying group thought) don't follow men and it's not a tradition."
Then you explain the need of a man to interpret what is of God, and you suggest following men over Christ regarding finances.

BTW, Why do you jump to such conclusions about me that are contrary to what I have argued? I have argued against Marxism and Postmodernism. Just because I believe in worshipping God over anybody else, doesn't mean I like Marxism.

Well, I am not responsible for your spiritual well-being. I can share what I have learned through study, thinking, praying and feeling the spirit. But I won't worry too much after I do what I know is right. For several years now, we have shared our tithes with those in need where there is financial transparency. I feel good in doing what Christ repeatedly taught - and prioritizing loving God and others above all other laws and prophets.

Praying to the father only works if you pray in the name of Jesus Christ ,otherwise it falls on deaf ears. You cannot know God but through his son Jesus Christ, the savior of the world. And not your counterfeit Christ, the biblical Christ , the one who died on a tree and was resurrected. The same Christ who you teach is not God that we should not worship Him. You say it's unlikely that he died on the cross and was resurrected.You say there will be No Second Coming. Then you say you follow Christ ???? You tell me in private Jesus is not the savior that he did not die for our sins, that you used to believe this but have learned better and you're trying to wake people up ,that you have a moral/ spiritual obligation to share this.
You do not follow Jesus Christ. you use his words for your own agenda. I don't like to say this but I have a spiritual obligation. It's not right what you're doing.

[Thinker]

AI,
It seems that there are computer programs (AI - Artificial Intelligence) designed to post certain viewpoints on forums and other social media.

You were arguing for same-sex marketing using church buildings and ward members, which seems inconsistent with Godly principles yet consistent with supporting the church at all costs.

Just wondering. Honest question. What does your forum name stand for?

[AI2.0]

I prioritize and worship God. I try to follow Christ as much as I can.
Christ taught parables like the sheep and goats comparing those who loved God by caring for thise in need, they are blessed as sheep. And those who did nkt care for those in need will be damned as goats. He also taught of the good Samaritan and told a rich man to sell all he had to give to the poor to follow Christ. Jesus taught that above all commandments and above all prophets- to love God (& as we love others we love God) & love others as ourselves.

So, when a church keeps finances secret but admits that no tithes go to the poor, admitting tithing collectors are disobeying their responsibility and disobeying the greatest commandments, I cannot in good conscience follow that. When there is a discrepancy like that - a choice between following Christ and following church leaders, I choose Christ.

You are judging LDS Prophets and Apostles of 'disobeying their responsibility and disobeying the greatest commandments'. That's are pretty damning accusation to make and unfair since it's not based on what they've actually been charged to do and instead, based on your own personal interpretation of what you think tithing ought to entail.

Even more surprising, you use the Prophet Moses as he served the Lord's people in his day, some 3500 years ago to try to justify your accusations. But this is an LDS forum, so you are familiar that we follow the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ, and living Prophets.

With the restored gospel we have additional scriptural revelations.

Here is what the Lord revealed that tithing should be IN OUR DAY, regardless of what was done in Moses' time:

1 Verily, thus saith the Lord, I require all their surplus property to be put into the hands of the bishop of my church in Zion,
2 For the building of mine house, and for the laying of the foundation of Zion and for the priesthood, and for the debts of the Presidency of my Church.
3 And this shall be the beginning of the tithing of my people.
4 And after that, those who have thus been tithed shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever, for my holy priesthood, saith the Lord.
5 Verily I say unto you, it shall come to pass that all those who gather unto the land of Zion shall be tithed of their surplus properties, and shall observe this law, or they shall not be found worthy to abide among you.
6 And I say unto you, if my people observe not this law, to keep it holy, and by this law sanctify the land of Zion unto me, that my statutes and my judgments may be kept thereon, that it may be most holy, behold, verily I say unto you, it shall not be a land of Zion unto you.
7 And this shall be an ensample unto all the stakes of Zion. Even so. Amen.

Note some of the purposes for tithing which the Lord stipulated; 'for the building of mine house, for the laying of the foundation of Zion, for the priesthood, for the debts of the Presidency of my church'

Interesting that he didn't mention the poor in this Revelation. It's not that the poor are NOT to be cared for through tithing; since the welfare of the Saints can be part of it, but the determination is to be made by the Bishop (the church even has a Presiding Bishop) and the bulk of tithing goes to 'Building the Kingdom'. 'Offerings' are what we generally use for the care of the poor, and the church has set up a lot of ways for the Saints to give generously to help the Poor.

Thinker, if you are not giving the money you've labeled 'tithing' to the Bishop, then it's not really tithing. It's charitable giving. If you refuse to pay an honest 1/10th tithe to the Bishop, then you are not actually paying tithing and from an LDS standpoint, you do not truly 'choose Christ'.

[AI2.0]

AI,
It seems that there are computer programs (AI - Artificial Intelligence) designed to post certain viewpoints on forums and other social media.

You were arguing for same-sex marketing using church buildings and ward members, which seems inconsistent with Godly principles yet consistent with supporting the church at all costs.

Just wondering. Honest question. What does your forum name stand for?

lol That's the best one yet.

My forum name stands for Alter Idem 2.0
I'm a real person.
I used to post on Mormondialogueandiscussion (the old Fair mormon board) and used the name AlterIdem, which is latin for 'other self'. This was before AI's became all the rage.

Also, if I was some kind of 'bot', do you think I'd show my hand? Don't you think I'd have some generic name and a pic of the temple or something??

I was not arguing for Same sex behavior or it's acceptance within the church (which will never happen and which is NOT being advocated by church leaders). Instead, I agree with the church's position which has been to be accepting (see Mormon and gay on LDS.org) of those who identify as having same sex attraction but want to live the Lord's standard for moral worthiness and want to be full, contributing members of the church. I disagreed with the fanatical attacks and fear mongering which seemed to take hold of a few on this forum on a couple of threads.

I don't support the church 'at all costs', but I absolutely recognize inspired direction which comes from those who head this church--something which you apparently disagree with.

[Gage]

Some dont seem to know what tithing is or the reason for it.

[Thinker]

Some dont seem to know what tithing is or the reason for it.

Exactly! It might be because when you look under “tithing” in lds scriptures in the index or dictionary- you don’t find Deut. 14:28-29 listed, and although it’s the lower law, it isn’t obeyed. Although church finances are kept secret, Oaks admitted no tithing donations go to the poor.

Deuteronomy 14:28-29:
At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates: And the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest.

Mark 10:21:
Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

Luke 11:42
But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

1 John 4:8
He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

Matthew 22:36-40
Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

[Mark]

Some dont seem to know what tithing is or the reason for it.

Exactly! It might be because when you look under “tithing” in lds scriptures in the index or dictionary- you don’t find Deut. 14:28-29 listed, and although it’s the lower law, it isn’t obeyed. Although church finances are kept secret, Oaks admitted no tithing donations go to the poor.

Deuteronomy 14:28-29:
At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates: And the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest.

Mark 10:21:
Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

Luke 11:42
But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

1 John 4:8
He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

Matthew 22:36-40
Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5rAdzJ1U0RU