Mormon Leaks Interview Discussion

[captainfearnot]

And to be double fair, how is it my responsibility to properly care for another person thousands of miles away half way around the world. Throwing money to organizations who may or may not deliver seems spurious at best. Our responsibilities are in our spheres of influence, which for most of us is extremely local. Granted, a member of the 12's influence may be much larger than ours, but there is no way random pictures on the internet for which he specifically has no way to relieve suffering can fall at his or any of our feet. Perhaps they should fall on Gods feet. Apparently sparrows and whatnot are looked after more.

This is an interesting comment, because research has borne out that proximity is a major factor in determining morality.

Take a look at this online quiz: The Drowning Child

Edit: This one demonstrates a similar idea: The Envelope and the Vintage Sedan

In a nutshell, the author constructs a scenario such that saving a drowning child in your immediate vicinity and saving a starving child halfway around the world are equivalent in every measurable way except for proximity, in order to demonstrate that this idea of "sphere of influence" is substantial to our estimation of moral acts.

Even if you mitigate for all of the objections against donating money to feed starving Africans (inability to know for certain that your money is going where the organization claims, inability to intervene directly, etc.) people still believe that proximity plays a huge role in moral judgement.

[Durzan]

I'm kind of tired of your laws and BS. You guys are full of filth and coming up with some really outlandish crap. You shouldn't even be allowed here. All I see for the last few comments are trying to mislead and confuse people with lies.

You are very good at twisting things around.

For starters the pictures of starving kids you guys are putting up are FROM COUNTRIES that WE are NOT permitted to enter into or proselyte into! If we can't enter into those countries legally its very difficult to help them. If we don't have our own people in there we don't know if things we've sent to help is even getting there, and usually things get stolen before they reach there. Those are very clearly muslim children, and we are not able to do work in many forms still in most muslim countries! And people are reading your filth and and anti crap.

Also the UN recently found out people in Syria were trying to force women into sex before they would let them have humanitarian aid packages. So they were holding the packages hostage. We didn't make them hold these people hostage. But its happening.

People give and try to help others all the time. This is what fast offerings are for. But it's more than about money. You can't just throw money at a problem. It's also about managing the money. Managing it is even more than half the battle because you have to organize and make sure you get good gas mileage out of it. You can't do that without your OWN people doing it. We still don't have people everywhere and you attacking volunteers with your propaganda before they get there doesn't help the problem but only accelerates the damage.

Also the people claiming we let people starve have never been to the Humanitarian Center that the church has in Salt Lake. That entire building is for helping refugees. It has resources for all kinds of problems there. If you want to really know if this guy's lies are just that lies then go visit the Humanitarian Center in Salt Lake and see for yourselves. They also help refugees transition into our society with job help and you can see them actually sorting clothes to be sent to other refugees and other aid packages. And to top it off it's all happening in a building that used to make WW2 artillery shells. (...turn swords into plowshares...) There's a whole section in there just for how to help starving people also, and they have food specially made for starving people when you go upstairs. If you go in there you can see it and a huge chunk of the refugees working in there are are also from Africa and Middle Eastern countries and other third world countries.

But you guys wouldn't know this because you haven't even bothered to check out the filth and lies you spread.

We absolutely also are not just like other people that let people starve. And we don't do the bad things you guys on this thread are accusing of leting people die. I've never seen such obvious crap in my life. I've heard discussions from good LDS people I know saying, I'd send a barrel of rice over to Ethiopia or Sudan tomorrow if I knew it would actually reach the people that need it. This was my fourth grade teacher that said that a few years ago. The real problem is how to get it to a lawless area where people are committing acts of violence to take the food and with political instability. It's often unsafe for aid workers to go into these areas. Even the Houston hurricane they had reservations about letting volunteer LDS workers and Non-LDS go in also because of safety reasons. People help out others all the time with stuff like this, and if people would look beyond your crap they'd see it.

People want to do good and help those people but there isn't always infrastructure for doing so. When you see areas we can't get into yet, there's a reason for that and it's not always our fault. Somebody has to organize work. Sometimes they won't let us have visas and passports in a country or have a small quota on those numbers even after they let our people in. And that's all before you even start missionaries organizing other locals to help them with service projects. Let's say you did want to send them food, if you were going to do so you'd have to use your own networks because part of why those countries still have starving people in them is because their own people and others steal the resources before they get to the destination.

So the only way to really reach them is a combined effort of many types of work and human resources controlled from within being allowed into those countries before a real rescue effort can begin. In the case of rescuing handcart companies in Brigham Young's time, people could do so because they didn't have to worry about people stealing the resources before it would reach the destination. Even after they let us in there are a lot of restrictions. The list of places we're trying to reach is still enormously long;

Just recently the Clinton's and the other Presidents did that fundraiser last fall/winter to raise money for hurricane victims. Guess what, less than 3% of the total money actually even went to those people.

There is INFINITE need in this world. The problems of mortality are adversity because no matter how much good we try to do there is always going to be more needs to fill, even when you are doing everything you can. People who say we don't care and do nothing don't know what they are talking about.

AMEN!

(Mod Hat: Reminder to be wise with how you word your posts)

[Col. Flagg]

Who's putting their faith and testimony in the arm of the flesh and who's putting it in the restored gospel of Jesus Christ and canonized scripture?

[Thinker]

Gardenerforlife,
The church’s members do a lot of service, but my impression is not the same of those higher up. For one thing, I know the church leadership is really good at researching prior to implementing programs - in proselytizing etc, but they need to invest the same determination in humanitarian work. I have been to the church humanitarian center. I’ve seen loads of clothes being sorted and packed really tight into bundles to be shipped off. I’ve also read about how charity donations of clothing to poor countries were putting local clothing vendors out of business because the vendors couldn’t compete with “free.”

I’ve gone to humanitarian kit packaging events where lds humanitarian missionaries told us that the kits cost more to ship and that there are better ways to help but you know, “TRADITION, TRADITION!” I’ve mailed care packages to people in poor countries and the postal charge cost as much or more than the content in the package, so I’ve found better ways to help. I’ve been to poor countries and my heart breaks to see how many people live. And that bit about proximity - people want to feel good about helping even when it isn’t so helpful. Even locally, I’ve gone to Deseret Industries and seen how they marked up prices - their price was more than the product new, which DI got for free. I know active lds who served humanitarian missions and after frustration gave that up & created their own nonprofit organization and get their own funding because the church was horrible to work with - making the much needed help difficult, if not impossible, to accomplish. They love the church but hate their humanitarian methods/stinginess.

The children in the pictures above don’t specify where they are, but it doesn’t really matter since we (from America) are privileged to get Visas to enter any country in the world. Humanitarian help is welcome where proselytizing is not.

I notice that you too, have tried to put me down and spoke badly about what I wrote, without explaining exactly how it is mistaken. Why do you attack me, rather than explain exactly how what I’ve written is incorrect? Since you do not address it, I’m leftvto assume you take the truth to be hard and “shoot the messenger” rather than consider the truth of the message. You have NOT addressed the problems of denying TITHES to the poor - despite Deut. 14:28-29 specifically stating 1/3 of TITHES are for the poor & Christ asked us to give much more. You also have not addressed charging for worthiness - and based on income rather than (as scriptures repeatedly say) on increase. You did state some words that seemed like ad hominem attacks - words I don’t let my kids say.

Who's putting their faith and testimony in the arm of the flesh and who's putting it in the restored gospel of Jesus Christ and canonized scripture?

Good question.

[brianj]

You don’t live the law of Moses anymore? Then you don’t even honor the 10-commandments, or the law of tithing which was began with the law of Moses? Hm... should I be glad I don’t know you in real life - because you seem to see laws of Moses like “thou shalt not kill” & “thou shalt not steal” as sooooo old-school-Mosaic.

Obviously some laws like those about how many steps one can take on the Sabbath, are irrelevant. But some laws are essential. One way to discern which laws are important to obey is by what Jesus said... to love God and love others above all prophets and other laws. The commandment of tithing collectors to give TITHES to the poor, is in keeping with Christ’s greatest commandments, as is not to steal, not to kill etc. In fact, if we do not obey the law of tithing as it is to help the poor, then we will be as goats - damned in hell, in Jesus’s parable.

I don't live the Law of Moses. The Mosaic commandment to not kill was replaced with a commandment to not even get angry, and I try to live this commandment. Some may be satisfied to not commit adultery, but I try to not even lust after people. I ate pork yesterday and I'll eat shellfish when I have the chance.

If you claim to live the law of Moses, do you have one set of plates and cooking utensils for meat and another for dairy products? You can't claim to live the Law of Moses but pick and choose what parts are worth keeping and which parts are worth ignoring.

[Thinker]

Brianj,
The root of the word, “intelligence” means “to choose between.”
In this too-much-information age, we constantly pick and choose what to zoom in & focus on, what to ignore and what to keep on periphery. Same applies to the many centuries of spiritual development. Despite some positive disintegration (tossing old wine bottles for new wine so to speak), we have been building on the past since the beginning of time. Jesus explained that he was not throwing out the old law but fulfilling it, building on it. As you mentioned, where Moses said don’t kill, Jesus essentially said, don’t even hold poisonous anger. In Moses’s time, 1/3 of tithes were commanded to be given to the poor, then Christ asked us to give all we could - in some cases to give it all & follow him. In Moses’s time, people needed specific commandments; later, Christ taught more of the spirit of the law... IE: Christ criticized the rich who donated a lot of money for praise & had so much more they kept, yet when a widow gave a tiny amount, Christ praised her because it was so much of what she had.

I realize it feels uncomfortable, even painful, to consider how we may have contributed or supported for all our lives a principle that is not Christ-like. There’s a tendency to try to find excuses, like “Yes, I consider all the Old Testament scripture but I won’t pick & choose which laws I’ll obey, yet I will put my trust in church leaders to pick & choose & if they’re wrong, it’s their fault.”

I know and believe with all of my mind, heart & soul that the greatest commandments are to love God (& as I love others I love God) & to love others as myself. Christ was right in saying that those 2 commandments prioritize above all other laws and prophets. So, I have felt good and spiritually affirmed in sharing my tithes with those in need, as commanded.

[oneClimbs]

Money doesn’t solve poverty and if you think it does, you don’t know much about poverty.

There are a host of contributors that I couldn’t name here. Selfishness is “a” contributor of course but blaming the church for starving children is so messed up. Many poor are that way as a result of corrupt governments that refuse assistance or willfully keep their people that way to control them. Others have infrastructures that make it next to impossible for people to lift themselves up. Even with food and such they’d be depended forever and the logistics of feeding them forever in a state of dependence is impossible due to sheer numbers and when you nourish a dependent group of people they have more kids who in turn grow up in a dependent state thereby worstening the problem.

In America you have whole different story. There are numerous places to obtain free food, shelter and opportunities. A great deal of these people have other issues vast and complex to where there’s little you can do other than offer charity because they refuse to reciprocate effort and prefer dependence.

Feeding people is a mixed bag. You’re better off working with foreign governments an organizations to help people one by one and building infrastructure to really help people in the long term. Just money alone, that doesn’t solve the problem.

Sure, people could use food now and we do our best but like I said, it’s a beast of an issue and is amazingly complex.

[Thinker]

Steve,
I agree! Definitely you can’t just throw money at any problem without first researching & figuring out exactly what the problems are and only then can you consider effective solutions. This is what I was saying...

The church’s members do a lot of service, but my impression is not the same of those higher up. For one thing, I know the church leadership is really good at researching prior to implementing programs - in proselytizing etc, but they need to invest the same determination in humanitarian work. I have been to the church humanitarian center. I’ve seen loads of clothes being sorted and packed really tight into bundles to be shipped off. I’ve also read about how charity donations of clothing to poor countries were putting local clothing vendors out of business because the vendors couldn’t compete with “free.”

I’ve gone to humanitarian kit packaging events where lds humanitarian missionaries told us that the kits cost more to ship and that there are better ways to help but you know, “TRADITION, TRADITION!” I’ve mailed care packages to people in poor countries and the postal charge cost as much or more than the content in the package, so I’ve found better ways to help. I’ve been to poor countries and my heart breaks to see how many people live. And that bit about proximity - people want to feel good about helping even when it isn’t so helpful. Even locally, I’ve gone to Deseret Industries and seen how they marked up prices - their price was more than the product new, which DI got for free. I know active lds who served humanitarian missions and after frustration gave that up & created their own nonprofit organization and get their own funding because the church was horrible to work with - making the much needed help difficult, if not impossible, to accomplish. They love the church but hate their humanitarian methods/stinginess.

The children in the pictures above don’t specify where they are, but it doesn’t really matter since we (from America) are privileged to get Visas to enter any country in the world. Humanitarian help is welcome where proselytizing is not.

There are various ways to define extreme poverty, the link below explains some ways and limitations of some which ie: just look at food without considering access to clean water and other needs. I’m not referring to US poverty which is rich by many standards and here we have many resources. I’m referring to people who have been hit by all kinds of hardship and cannot even get on the lowest economic rung without help.

When individuals suffer from extreme poverty and lack the meager income needed even to cover basic needs, a single episode of disease, a drought, or a pest that destroys a harvest can be the difference between life and death. In households suffering from extreme poverty, life expectancy is often around half that in the high-income world, 40 years instead of 80 years. It is common that in the poorest countries of sub-Saharan Africa, of every 1,000 children born, more than 100 die before their fifth birthday, compared with fewer than 10 in the high-income world. An infant born in sub-Saharan Africa today has only a one-in-three chance of surviving to age 65.

At the most basic level, the poorest of the poor lack the minimum amount of capital necessary to get a foothold on the first rung on the ladder of economic development. The extreme poor tend to lack six major kinds of capital:

• Human capital: health, nutrition, and skills – education – needed for each person to be economically productive
  *Business capital: the machinery, facilities, motorized transport used in agriculture, industry and services
  *Infrastructure: roads, power, water and sanitation, airport and seaports, and telecommunications systems, that are critical inputs into business productivity
  *Natural capital: arable land, healthy soils, biodiversity, and well-functioning ecosystems that provide the environmental services needed by human society
  *Public institutional capital: commercial law, judicial systems, government services and policing that underpin the peaceful and prosperous division of labor
  *Knowledge capital: the scientific and technological know-how that raises productivity in business output and the promotion of physical and natural capital.”

http://mvsim.wikischolars.columbia.edu/Extreme+Poverty

Almost 1,000,000,000 of our brothers & sisters are “chronically hungry,” according to the World Health Organization. That’s a lot but many hands make light work! Where there’s a will, there’s a way!! It can feel overwhelming but that is why TITHING has been established as a means to help the many who are extremely bad-off & in need. The zeal that has gone into researching missionary work needs to be applied to figuring out how best to help in each situation of extreme poverty. Ideally, at least 1/3 of all church workers & tithes were invested in and working toward the goal of eliminating extreme poverty. Christ repeatedly asked us to do and give much more to those in need.

[shadow]

...TITHING has been established as a means to help the many who are extremely bad-off & in need.

No it hasn't.

Tithing is-
2 For the building of mine house, and for the laying of the foundation of Zion and for the priesthood, and for the debts of the Presidency of my Church.


Fast offerings are for-
7 Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?

[Tbone]

A separate topic with a real discussion on how to do our part in alleviating poverty would be far more interesting than another lame, misguided thread on tithing which always seems to devolve into a contest to see who's spiritual privy member is the largest.

[shadow]

The story of the Widow's mite makes crystal clear it is the relationship to money, the attitude of the giver and the sacrifice made that is important. Christ said the Widow gave MORE than the rich, despite the rich's large offerings. [Mark 12:41-44] Clearly Christ focused on the sacrifice made, NOT the amounts given. For the wealthy to feel the same sacrifice as a poor person giving 10% of their income, a wealthy person would have to give perhaps upwards of 90% or more of their income, depending.

Tithing is a law and it's defined as a tenth. God has never said a tithe from a rich person should be 90%, a tithe from middle class should be 25% and the poor aren't tithed. The law of the tithe is for all- rich and poor. A tithe might be a huge sacrifice for the poor and it might be a blessed tax write-off for the rich. That's not our call to make. We are to pay a tithe- sacrifice or not. A tithe might be all that the poor can sacrifice while the rich are left to choose what to do with the remainder of their wealth- to sacrifice or not to sacrifice.

But you bring up a great point with the widow and her mites, which may or may not have been tithing, but the principle is the same. You claim tithing is oppressive for the poor and yet you recognize that the widow's sacrifice was great in that she gave more than the rich, despite the amount being less. I agree 100%. Christ used her as an example. He didn't say she shouldn't have paid her 2 mites. He recognized her for paying it. He used her as an example of those without much of anything, with a grateful heart, can sacrifice. Had you been a participant in that scene I suppose you would've rebuked Christ for allowing the widow to pay her mites. It's also interesting to note that her great sacrifice, her two mites, went into the treasury.

[shadow]

A separate topic with a real discussion on how to do our part in alleviating poverty would be far more interesting than another lame, misguided thread on tithing which always seems to devolve into a contest to see who's spiritual privy member is the largest.

I don't think tithing is lame or misguided so I think it's something worth discussing. I don't believe Thinker, Lizzy etc. are being fake with their issues with tithing. For them, the problems are real. I happen to think they're misguided and misunderstand tithing, but it's worth a friendly discussion either way.

[Tbone]

A separate topic with a real discussion on how to do our part in alleviating poverty would be far more interesting than another lame, misguided thread on tithing which always seems to devolve into a contest to see who's spiritual privy member is the largest.

I don't think tithing is lame or misguided so I think it's something worth discussing. I don't believe Thinker, Lizzy etc. are being fake with their issues with tithing. For them, the problems are real. I happen to think they're misguided and misunderstand tithing, but it's worth a friendly discussion either way.

I always respect your thoughts Shadow, and I would never mean to suggest not discussing a topic or even to demean someone who doesn't share my viewpoint. I was just making an observation of how such discussions seem to play out. We don't belong to an easy church. Tithing is a hard law, but it is one of many hard promises we make as members.

[Thinker]

A separate topic with a real discussion on how to do our part in alleviating poverty would be far more interesting than another lame, misguided thread on tithing which always seems to devolve into a contest to see who's spiritual privy member is the largest.

There are threads and you’re welcome to begin another.
Poverty and tithing are the most important parts of this discussion.

I just listened to this debate with Tony Blair and others about poverty. Each was able to give good counter perspectives to each other. Worth the time if you are interested in understanding more about poverty, causes and solutions.
https://youtu.be/KNIEb3injpc

[Thinker]

The story of the Widow's mite makes crystal clear it is the relationship to money, the attitude of the giver and the sacrifice made that is important. Christ said the Widow gave MORE than the rich, despite the rich's large offerings. [Mark 12:41-44] Clearly Christ focused on the sacrifice made, NOT the amounts given. For the wealthy to feel the same sacrifice as a poor person giving 10% of their income, a wealthy person would have to give perhaps upwards of 90% or more of their income, depending.

Tithing is a law and it's defined as a tenth. God has never said a tithe from a rich person should be 90%, a tithe from middle class should be 25% and the poor aren't tithed. The law of the tithe is for all- rich and poor. A tithe might be a huge sacrifice for the poor and it might be a blessed tax write-off for the rich. That's not our call to make. We are to pay a tithe- sacrifice or not. A tithe might be all that the poor can sacrifice while the rich are left to choose what to do with the remainder of their wealth- to sacrifice or not to sacrifice.

But you bring up a great point with the widow and her mites, which may or may not have been tithing, but the principle is the same. You claim tithing is oppressive for the poor and yet you recognize that the widow's sacrifice was great in that she gave more than the rich, despite the amount being less. I agree 100%. Christ used her as an example. He didn't say she shouldn't have paid her 2 mites. He recognized her for paying it. He used her as an example of those without much of anything, with a grateful heart, can sacrifice. Had you been a participant in that scene I suppose you would've rebuked Christ for allowing the widow to pay her mites. It's also interesting to note that her great sacrifice, her two mites, went into the treasury.

Yeah, you make a good point too. And it kind of goes along with Christ reprimanding Judas for criticizing a woman who poured expensive oils on Jesus’s feet how the oils could have been sold to help the poor. The moral of that story and the Widow’s mite are not that all poor should be shamed into giving all they have to become poorer, but rather that one’s heart/intent is more important than the monetary value. Jesus NEVER suggested that ALL must pay to a religious organization. He never suggested that temples should be used to bribe people for worthiness in exchange for money. In fact, Jesus express controlled righteous anger in whipping people out of the temple who were using it to make money. I wonder what he’d think of using his name to make so much money while not sharing tithes with the poor.

Remember Jesus repeatedly gave lessons and parables about helping those in need that come across our path of awareness. The greatest commandments - above all others - is to love others. In doing so, we love God & show that it is God (who is Love) that we worship & prioritize.

[Thinker]

...TITHING has been established as a means to help the many who are extremely bad-off & in need.

No it hasn't.
Tithing is-
2 For the building of mine house, and for the laying of the foundation of Zion and for the priesthood, and for the debts of the Presidency of my Church.

Fast offerings are for-
7 Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?

Yes, that is if you worship and follow men over Christ.
Tithing was established in Old Testament times commanding tithing collectors to give 1/3 to the poor. Jesus said he did not come to destroy the law but to fulfill it - to give us higher laws. Jesus trusted us more than OT laws did. Jesus didn’t say, “You have to give 10% of your money to religious leaders or to the poor” but Christ repeatedly taught about helping those in need and he warned us about religious leaders as did God in Joseph Smith’s vision. Christ trusted us to study it out and pray how best to help. He trusted that we do not need to be commanded in all things but will do much good by our own will. Christ knew that as we had the spirit with us, we would WANT to help others when we could, not out of shameful obligation but out of joy.

[shadow]

...TITHING has been established as a means to help the many who are extremely bad-off & in need.

No it hasn't.
Tithing is-
2 For the building of mine house, and for the laying of the foundation of Zion and for the priesthood, and for the debts of the Presidency of my Church.

Fast offerings are for-
7 Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?

Yes, that is if you worship and follow men over Christ.

Ok.

[Mark]

...TITHING has been established as a means to help the many who are extremely bad-off & in need.

No it hasn't.
Tithing is-
2 For the building of mine house, and for the laying of the foundation of Zion and for the priesthood, and for the debts of the Presidency of my Church.

Fast offerings are for-
7 Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?

Yes, that is if you worship and follow men over Christ.

Ok.

Don't waste your time brother. You couldn't move this Sister off her paradigm with a stick of dynamite. It ain't happening. Joseph himself could appear to her and verify the Lords purpose in our day as revealed in the D&C and she would just argue with him about Deuteronomy being the last word on tithing.

[Thinker]

Christ is who I look to regarding this - not Moses, and not Joseph Smith (though he taught differently than how it is now), nor do I look to other men in high positions.

Maybe you guys are unfamiliar with Christ’s teachings because I notice the focus tends to be the Book of Mormon, D&C and church leaders.

[brianj]

Christ is who I look to regarding this - not Moses, and not Joseph Smith (though he taught differently than how it is now), nor do I look to other men in high positions.

Maybe you guys are unfamiliar with Christ’s teachings because I notice the focus tends to be the Book of Mormon, D&C and church leaders.

I don't get it. Isn't the Book of Mormon full of Christ's teachings? Doesn't the D&C contain revelations from Christ to modern prophets? Aren't modern prophets inspired by Christ regarding what to teach?

[gardener4life]

The words and sentences in the scriptures are the words and secrets he gave to his prophets. Why wouldn't we quote those items? Also think of Amos 3:7 For surely God will do nothing, save he revealeth, his secrets unto his servants the prophets. (It doesn't mean he'll do nothing. It means his work is to help us return to live with him. So he talks to us through the scriptures.)

Brian is also on track too.

[Thinker]

Christ is who I look to regarding this - not Moses, and not Joseph Smith (though he taught differently than how it is now), nor do I look to other men in high positions.

Maybe you guys are unfamiliar with Christ’s teachings because I notice the focus tends to be the Book of Mormon, D&C and church leaders.

I don't get it. Isn't the Book of Mormon full of Christ's teachings? Doesn't the D&C contain revelations from Christ to modern prophets? Aren't modern prophets inspired by Christ regarding what to teach?

Brianj,
I know you’re in a smart club or something so I find it odd that I have to explain this to you. The time that Jesus lived on earth is recorded by 4 authors (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) in the New Testament. These writings are more about Christ than any other books.

“The four gospels of the New Testament — Matthew, Mark, Luke and John — are the main source of information on the life of Jesus. For various reasons modern scholars are cautious of relying on them uncritically, but nevertheless they do provide a good idea of the public career of Jesus, and critical study can attempt to distinguish the original ideas of Jesus from those of the later authors.”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel

As explained, other recordings of Jesus are secondary. In the 4 gospels, Christ gave many spiritually priceless lessons - many parables about helping those in need.
And as you know, the name of our church is after him: “The Church of Jesus Christ...”

[shadow]

Christ is who I look to regarding this - not Moses, and not Joseph Smith (though he taught differently than how it is now), nor do I look to other men in high positions.

Maybe you guys are unfamiliar with Christ’s teachings because I notice the focus tends to be the Book of Mormon, D&C and church leaders.

I don't get it. Isn't the Book of Mormon full of Christ's teachings? Doesn't the D&C contain revelations from Christ to modern prophets? Aren't modern prophets inspired by Christ regarding what to teach?

Brianj,
I know you’re in a smart club or something so I find it odd that I have to explain this to you. The time that Jesus lived on earth is recorded by 4 authors (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) in the New Testament. These writings are more about Christ than any other books.

“The four gospels of the New Testament — Matthew, Mark, Luke and John — are the main source of information on the life of Jesus. For various reasons modern scholars are cautious of relying on them uncritically, but nevertheless they do provide a good idea of the public career of Jesus, and critical study can attempt to distinguish the original ideas of Jesus from those of the later authors.”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel

As explained, other recordings of Jesus are secondary. In the 4 gospels, Christ gave many spiritually priceless lessons - many parables about helping those in need.
And as you know, the name of our church is after him: “The Church of Jesus Christ...”

Rhetorical questions-

Where in the 4 gospels does Jesus teach that 1/3 of tithes go to the poor?
Why did He not tell Joseph Smith to give 1/3 of the tithes to the poor?
Why do you claim it's 1/3 of the tithes when clearly it's taught that it was a tithe every 3rd year? There is a difference.
Why do you believe that tithing is the only thing we're supposed to give?
Why can't we give on our own volition? Why did Christ teach us to make an individual effort-
11 For the poor shall never cease out of the land: therefore I command thee, saying, Thou shalt open thine hand wide unto thy brother, to thy poor, and to thy needy, in thy land.
Why did Isaiah tell us that fast offerings were supposed to feed the poor and clothe the naked? Why did he not mention anything about 1/3 of the tithes going to the poor? Why didn't Moses mention anything about a fast offering going to feed the poor?
Why didn't Christ tell the widow to keep her 2 mites that she gave to the treasury at the Temple?
Why did she pay the treasury and not give to someone she felt needed the 2 mites?
Do you pay tithing to the one who has that stewardship over it as is found repeatedly in the scriptures or do you simply donate to wherever you want and incorrectly call it a tithe when it's simply a donation? It's not tithing unless it goes to the person who has stewardship over tithing. You do not have that stewardship. Thanks for donating to your pet cause.
Why didn't Christ instruct those who were with him to give $$$ to the widow?

[brianj]

Christ is who I look to regarding this - not Moses, and not Joseph Smith (though he taught differently than how it is now), nor do I look to other men in high positions.

Maybe you guys are unfamiliar with Christ’s teachings because I notice the focus tends to be the Book of Mormon, D&C and church leaders.

I don't get it. Isn't the Book of Mormon full of Christ's teachings? Doesn't the D&C contain revelations from Christ to modern prophets? Aren't modern prophets inspired by Christ regarding what to teach?

Brianj,
I know you’re in a smart club or something so I find it odd that I have to explain this to you. The time that Jesus lived on earth is recorded by 4 authors (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) in the New Testament. These writings are more about Christ than any other books.

“The four gospels of the New Testament — Matthew, Mark, Luke and John — are the main source of information on the life of Jesus. For various reasons modern scholars are cautious of relying on them uncritically, but nevertheless they do provide a good idea of the public career of Jesus, and critical study can attempt to distinguish the original ideas of Jesus from those of the later authors.”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel

As explained, other recordings of Jesus are secondary. In the 4 gospels, Christ gave many spiritually priceless lessons - many parables about helping those in need.
And as you know, the name of our church is after him: “The Church of Jesus Christ...”

Your argument suggests that you only accept teachings of Christ given during His mortal ministry. In the book of Acts we have teachings by Christ after His resurrection. The same applies to Third Nephi. The same applies to scriptures that have been prophesied detailing Christ's postmortal ministry to the scattered branches of Israel. Do you believe that King Benjamin's teaching that "when ye are in the service your fellow beings ye are only in the service of your God" was his own teaching as opposed to Christ's teaching?

Don't forget that, relying solely on the four gospels, a lot of people have become convinced that the three members of the Godhead are one entity, like the Roman god Janus but with a third face. Relying solely on the Bible people have come to believe anything from the idea that we need to follow commandments with exactness to the idea that all you have to do is accept Jesus as Savior and it doesn't matter what you do. Modern revelation and additional scripture are required to help us come to know the Father and the Son.

[Thinker]

Shadow,
I already explained but I will recap.
Moses gave us lower, basic laws, with the focus more on specifics - the letter of the law.
Christ did not destroy those laws, but essentially gave us higher laws based on the lower laws (thou shalt not kill became turn the other cheek & love your enemies etc). It became more of the spirit rather than letter of the law. Christ trusted that we don’t need to be commanded, ie, to pay a specific amount of tithes, but he repeatedly told us to take care of those in need. And Christ trusted us to obey that greatest commandment (above all laws & prophets).

If we are going to follow the law of tithing, we need to do it as Christ asked us to, in ideally sharing a much larger than 1/3 part of TITHES to the poor. This may be a truth that’s hard to take but I’ve studied it out and prayed and I know that following Christ in that way is right. Loving others through tithing is as God designed tithing - at least in part.

Re: The Widow giving her mite to the religious leaders rather than other poor, or even rather than to Jesus. Jesus saw her heart - that she meant well, even if she didn’t realize how corrupt the religious leaders were - enough to kill Christ. Some questions you ask about this opens up a big complicated issue regarding whether we are saved in ignorance. The short answer is no, but again, each person is unique and some who have no way of being less ignorant/more aware, there is more grace I imagine. For those of us who have so many opportunities to study and learn - less excuses.

=

Brianj,
It’s not that I only accept the 4 gospels. I have a long list of my favorite scriptures- some from OT, NT, BofM, D&C, & Pearl of great price. In discussing with non-lds, I have shared lds scriptures because I see some of them as universally true. Still, when I really need spiritual comfort or strength, I turn to Christ’s teachings. The parables are beautiful and his life is inspiring and encouraging. I’ve still got a lot to learn but I’m beginning to see how Christ represents the highest ideal in every aspect - and thus a good example to follow.