Mormon Leaks Interview Discussion

[mirkwood]

Two dudes who are no longer members of the LDS church "exposing" the LDS church. What could possibly go sideways with that.

[Mindfields]

They were angry at Samuel. It doesn't say anything about him being a member of the "Church". He was an outsider. Jesus had to remind/command them to add his testimony to their scriptures for heavens sake.

The question you have to ask yourself is; Why did God send Samuel to testify against the Nephites if the they had the true "Church"? Why didn't those leaders stand up on the walls and testify?

And since you have represented this as a type of things to come or currently happening, how are you going to react to the Samuel God sends in our day?

[oneClimbs]

I have never agreed with anyone more than this on the internet, 5tev3. Very well done. We are told never to say all is well in Zion. There is so much good, but I hope we can be humble enough to continuously improve. I also find it interesting that even in the Book of Mormon, people naturally want a King. We make our modern prophets into celebrity kings, often against their will.

Yes, and that is what I am fearful of. When a certain theme is repeated often in the scriptures, especially by multiple people across a long span of time then you can put a lot of stock in the fact that it is something you should pay attention to. With God, repetition is emphasis. Your final point is particularly sobering because often God gives the people what they crave, but only after warning them clearly and repeatedly to the contrary. I think we've been more than sufficiently warned.

[oneClimbs]

They were angry at Samuel. It doesn't say anything about him being a member of the "Church". He was an outsider. Jesus had to remind/command them to add his testimony to their scriptures for heavens sake.

The question you have to ask yourself is; Why did God send Samuel to testify against the Nephites if the they had the true "Church"? Why didn't those leaders stand up on the walls and testify?

And since you have represented this as a type of things to come or currently happening, how are you going to react to the Samuel God sends in our day?

I agree with your point about Samuel being somewhat of an outsider. He certainly was to the Nephite society and perhaps so even to the church. The point you bring up about Samuel and the leader of the church (Nephi) being essentially on the "same team" but having the message come from an outsider vs. a known leader is something I've noticed as well. I think this kind of thing is something God uses to challenge his people to see if they are listening to him rather than following men on their perceived merits alone.

I'm speaking of this within the scope of the principle alone here. You don't just have Samuel as an example of this you have Lehi, Abinadi, and you could possibly throw Amulek and some others in there as well. Sometimes the messenger is part of the 'established order' and sometimes they come from outside that order or perhaps further downstream from that order.

I've been thinking about Samuel getting attacked with both stones AND arrows. I think there is something deeper here. I don't think the stones were chosen because some people didn't have arrows. I think that perhaps the arrows came from the secular part of the crowd that was not part of the church uniting with the church part of the crowd that was using stones because they were exercising their duty under the Law of Moses to condemn a false prophet by stoning them. Whenever you see a person attacked with stones in scripture, usually you have the Law of Moses being invoked there.

"If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder […] And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the Lord your God […] Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the Lord thy God," (Deut 13:1,5,8-10)

That said I don't put MormonLeaks in the same category as Samuel. Typically a prophet sent to prophesy concerning the people will identify himself as such and that the Lord has personally sent him. The MormonLeaks guys are publishing documents that thus far have been rather boring and unsurprising in nature. That said, if there indeed is some horrible corruption out there, some wolf in sheep's clothes, their misdeeds should be made known, and justice should be served.

[larsenb]

Just found out about this from my Mother - anyone know more or have any details as to what the story is about?

Why am I not seeing anything in your post? What are you referring to, just the existence of 'Mormon Leaks'??

[Rand]

The current version of the church I think is a step backward in that it walks a dangerous line of having the potential of becoming corrupt without any means of rooting out the corruption.

Please explain this further 5tev3. What do you mean by the "current version" of the church. I like your thoughts and often read your blog, but this seems to come out of left field.

Sorry, I'm the tech industry and am involved in app and software development and so I think that my language was influenced by a paradigm where something begins and then progresses through a series of iterations. I was thinking along the same lines with my comment as there is a parallel to the history of the LDS church along with how God has organized his people throughout time. While the scriptures contain much individual devotion, we only get glimpses of how the church was organized at various points in history.

Modern LDS history is completely different, the records are detailed and many of them are considered part of our standard works in the D&C. From the time of the first vision on to where we are today, there were many iterative changes as things were being rolled out. Many of those things were steps forward and expansive while others were reductive in nature. What I was referring to as the "current version" of the church was in reference to the organization of the leadership where there is a top-down leadership from the president to the twelve and the seventy.

This was not how the church was organized in Joseph's time. I referenced D&C 107 where it explains that the governance of the church would be by three co-equal quorums. You have a presidency of the church consisting of three high priests, twelve traveling councilors, the seventy, and every decision made by them had to be unanimous. Then you had the individual stake high councils themselves which formed quorums equal in authority to the presidency and the twelve and the high council of Zion which was equal in authority to all the individual stakes of Zion.

The twelve were originally a traveling council that went around building up the church with the seventy to help them. The main governance of the church happened at the local stakes and with the high council of Zion. After Joseph's death, there was a power struggle between various factions including the stake high council, the twelve, and the remaining member of the first presidency Sidney Rigdon. At the time, nothing had been said concerning succession so they had to decide how things would shake out. Ultimately Brigham pushed for the idea that the twelve had the right to lead and the rest is history.

Instead of the quorums today being talked about as co-equal in authority, we are presented with a top-down hierarchical model where the presidency is at the top, the twelve below, and the seventy below that, and further down you have stake presidents and high councils. To make matters worse (in my opinion), we seem to ignore all of this by simply stating, "We are led by A prophet today" thus putting everything on one single man. Much of LDS speech in this regard makes it appear that we are just a group of people with a single prophet at the top. That is not how the church was or even IS organized. That kind of talk is a gross oversimplification at best and at worst it portrays a false paradigm of what should be.

To me, ignoring the co-equal quorums which could check and balance each other in favor for a king-like structure lends itself to corruption because when you put all the power in the hands of one man, that one man can potentially cause much more destruction. Whereas if we know that there are co-equal quorums with equal authority, one bad apple could be removed without tarnishing the trust of the leadership as a collective. D&C 107 notes that any of these quorums has the potential to make decisions "in unrighteousness" (vs.32) and in vs. 82 it mentions what happens if the President of the High Priesthood shall "transgress."

Instead, we walk what I feel is a dangerous line by referring to the president of the church as "beloved" and lifting him high to a state of adoration and praise. You may have noticed this with Elder Nelson. When President Monson was alive, he commanded all of the attention and Elder Nelson was simply another one of the twelve. Now that he is President Nelson that same attention given to Monson is centered on him and suddenly he is the most amazing person alive. I get that the church media department wants to profile the latest president of the church, and that's basically what media does is they try to inform questioning people as to who this person is and what qualifies them to lead.

I should probably state here that I have nothing personally against President Nelson or Monson. I'm sure they are wonderful people and may very well be deserving of all the praise heaped upon them. I look at them and think, "Those seem like respectable men." But I don't think we should be throwing massive birthday celebrations for them either or any other leader in the church. It is the office which is endowed with divine power, not the man, men are replaceable, even Joseph Smith was.

Should we be treating the call of a new president the same as the president of our nation which I would also say stinks grossly of that kingly worship we see in other nations? People love a king, they always have. I think it comes from an innate desire for a perfect heavenly king, but that adoration should never be centered in a mortal one. In my opinion, I think we should be leading the way in showing how co-equal quorums and authority provide for a greater check against corruption in governance. Something I think all nations of the earth could look at and desire to model. Instead, it seems that we are modeling them to a degree.

So when I say "current version" of the church you could point to a lot of things that distinguish it from past versions, many of which are good. The pointless priesthood restriction is gone and the gross crime of men taking on many wives has been eradicated in deed but not quite yet in thought.

Now, this doesn't mean that I live in a perpetual state of sour face about everything. I have witnessed what I feel is a rather unprecedented move by the church to more localized leadership and authority. I first noticed it when Stake misssionaries were changed to ward missionaries. Then the dedication of meetinghouses to the status of temples temporarily for temple dedications. After that, many more little interesting moves, and lately, the consolidation of the high priest group and elders quorum and the implementation of the ministering plan vs the old home and visiting teaching program.

Typically large organizations get more complex over time with more micromanaging. In the last few decades and especially this year we have seen the opposite which is very interesting. Think about it, before, home and visiting teaching had very specific objectives. Success meant getting into a home and teaching a lesson. As long as that happened it was assumed that people were being blessed. The numbers were tracked to see how successful the program was. Now there is no objective other than for the individual companionships to determine what is best of each family without any instruction from the leadership of the church and instead to work directly with the Lord. This is a massive organization putting an immense amount of trust in its own people, that cannot be understated as to how big of a deal that is to even come close to something like that in a large organization (especially a religious one). So kudos to the church under the leadership of President Nelson in this regard.

This latest conference marks another "version" of the church, an upgrade so to speak. There will be more changes in the future. Ultimately, we will be led by a king, Jesus Christ, and the current version of the church will be archived for something more complete and suited to a Zion people.

Until then, what we have now is what the Lord has permitted to be for the current time. So I lend my heart, might, and mind to the work at hand and seek to support everyone in their position so that we may be as successful as we can be with what we have today. I think that is all that we can do. Personally, I think it is foolish to leave this work for something lesser or to try and start something new. We know that the current iteration of the church is incomplete, that's not a surprise to anyone. We don't have all the scripture God intends for us, and there are many things yet to be revealed.

How that is all going to unfold, I don't quite know. It's possible that the Lord may cleanse his current house or ignite something new parallel to it and draw out the pure in heart. I don't quite know and honestly, it is not something I spend a ton of time thinking about other than here and there. The vast majority of my focus is on the doctrines and principles of the gospel, which, if you do read my blog, you'll notice an almost complete absence of controversial issues and references to current news and pop culture.

That's mostly due to the value that I place on certain information. I find it much more enriching and productive to study the doctrines and principles of the gospel and the endless fruit they bear, especially from the Book of Mormon. So while I do voice my opinion on controversial subjects here, my blog is far more reflective of what my usual study consists of. So anyway, long "answer" to a short question. Remember, I'm just some guy on the Internet, my ideas only have value if they are accurate so if you find me to be off-base with anything just ignore it, I'm only speaking for myself, I'm no prophet.

That was an excellent description. Thanks for taking the time to write it out. I have a hard time disagreeing with what you've expressed. I do think it is more church membership, although the 12 do further this tendency to worship to a degree the prophet.

I would vary a little in the sense that I think the quorum of the 12 and the First presidency play their roles very well in seeking unanimity in all of their decisions. But, as a church, yes, we get it wrong in the ways you describe Thanks again for the enlightenment.

[Thinker]

Story with links to the full interviews here:

http://kutv.com/news/local/the-men-of-m ... eyre-after

Thanks, Captainfearnot.
From the article:
“For Dodge, tithing is one of the main reasons he works on leaks.

“[The church] pushes tithing and donations very hard,” Dodge said. He choked up, adding that “it upsets” him when leaders “make broad statements like pay your tithing before you feed your family.” He served and LDS mission in Guatemala where he said he would tell families that they needed to pay tithing even when they were scrambling to find a can of beans to feed their family.

MormonLeaks has posted documents containing financials from the church including where some tithing dollars go. One such release, internal documents of the church showing the base living allowance of General Authorities, amounted to $120,000 per year in 2014 - estimated to $135,000 today with the general three percent cost of living increase used in past years.

One of the organization's leaks expected to be benign was one of the site's most viral. MormonLeaks obtained documents showing the average price of décor used inside each new temple.

“There was one very notable item, that was the rug in the bridal room” says McKnight. The average bridal rug: $17,000, which he notes means could translate to way more in some temples.”

One aspect that is self-evident that goes counter to scripture, is how finances are handled.
Oaks admitted that no tithes go to help the poor. Yet, in Deuteronomy 14:28-29, it clearly states that 1/3 of collected TITHES are to be given to the poor. And, if you look under "tithing" in your triple combination bible dictionary or indexes, you don't find such an important scripture about how leaders are supposed to handle sacred funds. Also, scriptures repeatedly state that tithes are to be based on INCREASE, but lds leaders have changed that and said tithes are now based on income. In doing so, they put unnecessary burdens on the poor - demanding they pay what they have not to give.
To explain this... consider 2 men earn same income. 1 man is sole provider of a family of 7, and after paying all bills, has no increase left. The 2nd man lives at his parents' home where all his bills are paid for him, so all of his income is increase. To demand both men to pay the same tithes is not of God, but happens. Also, priestcraft is like charging for temple worthiness.

Some might try to justify tithing collectors NOT sharing tithes with the poor by saying, "that's the law of Moses." Yes, it is the LOWER law. Jesus asked for much more. Jesus repeatedly commanded us to love one another and to help those in need. That is one of the highest commandments, "which hang all the law and the prophets."

In my opinion, there are 2 serious problems that need to have light brought to them:
1. Finances.
2. Cognitive distortions taught - while discouraging psych-ology (study of the soul), thereby contributing to depression, addiction, etc.
“13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.” -Matthew 23

I was wondering, is there a difference between kingdom of God & kingdom of heaven? Considering how Jesus used them interchangeably even within the same context, they are the same - or so closely related as to be no distinction. Considering Jesus was asked WHEN the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The kingdom of God cometh not with observation; neither shall they say, lo here or lo there. For behold, the kingdom of God is within you.” -Luke 17
The realm within us is obviously the means by which we feel the spirit and communicate God. Where else would it be? To suggest that it’s external or that one should not search one’s own soul (psych-ology) is deceptive and keeping people from entering into the kingdom of God/Heaven.

Speaking of psych-ology, and watching out for cognitive distortions - the church is not 100% true nor 100% false. The people (including leaders) are not 100% good nor 100% evil. There's a mix. I appreciate the church for the priceless sense of community and for the high standards that helped build a good foundation from which to build.

Gee where have I read this before?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xkW_ZkMtmlQ

Yes, in part, I quoted myself from the other thread because it needed repeating.
I don’t know if it is understood yet, because you still haven’t addressed the message, yet comment anyway.

[Mark]

Story with links to the full interviews here:

http://kutv.com/news/local/the-men-of-m ... eyre-after

Thanks, Captainfearnot.
From the article:
“For Dodge, tithing is one of the main reasons he works on leaks.

“[The church] pushes tithing and donations very hard,” Dodge said. He choked up, adding that “it upsets” him when leaders “make broad statements like pay your tithing before you feed your family.” He served and LDS mission in Guatemala where he said he would tell families that they needed to pay tithing even when they were scrambling to find a can of beans to feed their family.

MormonLeaks has posted documents containing financials from the church including where some tithing dollars go. One such release, internal documents of the church showing the base living allowance of General Authorities, amounted to $120,000 per year in 2014 - estimated to $135,000 today with the general three percent cost of living increase used in past years.

One of the organization's leaks expected to be benign was one of the site's most viral. MormonLeaks obtained documents showing the average price of décor used inside each new temple.

“There was one very notable item, that was the rug in the bridal room” says McKnight. The average bridal rug: $17,000, which he notes means could translate to way more in some temples.”

One aspect that is self-evident that goes counter to scripture, is how finances are handled.
Oaks admitted that no tithes go to help the poor. Yet, in Deuteronomy 14:28-29, it clearly states that 1/3 of collected TITHES are to be given to the poor. And, if you look under "tithing" in your triple combination bible dictionary or indexes, you don't find such an important scripture about how leaders are supposed to handle sacred funds. Also, scriptures repeatedly state that tithes are to be based on INCREASE, but lds leaders have changed that and said tithes are now based on income. In doing so, they put unnecessary burdens on the poor - demanding they pay what they have not to give.
To explain this... consider 2 men earn same income. 1 man is sole provider of a family of 7, and after paying all bills, has no increase left. The 2nd man lives at his parents' home where all his bills are paid for him, so all of his income is increase. To demand both men to pay the same tithes is not of God, but happens. Also, priestcraft is like charging for temple worthiness.

Some might try to justify tithing collectors NOT sharing tithes with the poor by saying, "that's the law of Moses." Yes, it is the LOWER law. Jesus asked for much more. Jesus repeatedly commanded us to love one another and to help those in need. That is one of the highest commandments, "which hang all the law and the prophets."

In my opinion, there are 2 serious problems that need to have light brought to them:
1. Finances.
2. Cognitive distortions taught - while discouraging psych-ology (study of the soul), thereby contributing to depression, addiction, etc.
“13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.” -Matthew 23

I was wondering, is there a difference between kingdom of God & kingdom of heaven? Considering how Jesus used them interchangeably even within the same context, they are the same - or so closely related as to be no distinction. Considering Jesus was asked WHEN the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The kingdom of God cometh not with observation; neither shall they say, lo here or lo there. For behold, the kingdom of God is within you.” -Luke 17
The realm within us is obviously the means by which we feel the spirit and communicate God. Where else would it be? To suggest that it’s external or that one should not search one’s own soul (psych-ology) is deceptive and keeping people from entering into the kingdom of God/Heaven.

Speaking of psych-ology, and watching out for cognitive distortions - the church is not 100% true nor 100% false. The people (including leaders) are not 100% good nor 100% evil. There's a mix. I appreciate the church for the priceless sense of community and for the high standards that helped build a good foundation from which to build.

Gee where have I read this before?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xkW_ZkMtmlQ

Yes, in part, I quoted myself from the other thread because it needed repeating.
I don’t know if it is understood yet, because you still haven’t addressed the message, yet comment anyway.

I have addressed the message multiple times. We don't live the Mosaic law anymore. We believe in modern day revelation. Thru living Prophets. In our day. You obviously cant seem to grasp that concept so you keep repeating your same tired grievances against the church and the Brethren over and over and over again. Move on with your life Sister. Let it go. You will be glad you did. Life will be much more positive for you.

[shadow]

I don’t know if it is understood yet, because you still haven’t addressed the message, yet comment anyway.

Your interpretation has been challenged a few times but you fail to respond.
Deuteronomy mentions multiple tithes. The one you reference is a tithe every 3 years of the produce. The first tithe, the one I'm sure you don't love, goes to the Priests for their services. It's a tithe of all. Most people interpret Deuteronomy annual tithes as a total of 23%. Today it's been revealed through Joseph Smith that a tithe is a tenth and nothing is mentioned about the poor. The revelation on the use of tithing is this-
2 For the building of mine house, and for the laying of the foundation of Zion and for the priesthood, and for the debts of the Presidency of my Church.
3 And this shall be the beginning of the tithing of my people.

Isaiah claims that the fast offering is to be used for the poor. This is also what the church teaches today. Great are the words of Isaiah, right?

We can also read in Deuteronomy what a tithe is measured from-

22 Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.

Every year the field has to be replanted with seeds. What the seeds produce from a bare field is increase. If you don't plant anything you get nothing. If you plant a little, your increase is a little, but whatever you get is an increase from nothing. If you get nothing, you tithe nothing. There is no increase.

How much of the increase is tithed? "All". It's also described as a tenth of everything that goes under the rod. What goes under the rod? Everything. That's how they measured what their production or increase was.

32 And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD.

And of course Abraham paid a tenth of ALL that he possessed.
From the Book of Mormon-
15 And it was this same Melchizedek to whom Abraham paid tithes; yea, even our father Abraham paid tithes of one-tenth part of all he possessed.

You might not like or agree with this interpretation, but it's a solid one.

[drtanner]

The current version of the church I think is a step backward in that it walks a dangerous line of having the potential of becoming corrupt without any means of rooting out the corruption.

Please explain this further 5tev3. What do you mean by the "current version" of the church. I like your thoughts and often read your blog, but this seems to come out of left field.

Sorry, I'm the tech industry and am involved in app and software development and so I think that my language was influenced by a paradigm where something begins and then progresses through a series of iterations. I was thinking along the same lines with my comment as there is a parallel to the history of the LDS church along with how God has organized his people throughout time. While the scriptures contain much individual devotion, we only get glimpses of how the church was organized at various points in history.

Modern LDS history is completely different, the records are detailed and many of them are considered part of our standard works in the D&C. From the time of the first vision on to where we are today, there were many iterative changes as things were being rolled out. Many of those things were steps forward and expansive while others were reductive in nature. What I was referring to as the "current version" of the church was in reference to the organization of the leadership where there is a top-down leadership from the president to the twelve and the seventy.

This was not how the church was organized in Joseph's time. I referenced D&C 107 where it explains that the governance of the church would be by three co-equal quorums. You have a presidency of the church consisting of three high priests, twelve traveling councilors, the seventy, and every decision made by them had to be unanimous. Then you had the individual stake high councils themselves which formed quorums equal in authority to the presidency and the twelve and the high council of Zion which was equal in authority to all the individual stakes of Zion.

The twelve were originally a traveling council that went around building up the church with the seventy to help them. The main governance of the church happened at the local stakes and with the high council of Zion. After Joseph's death, there was a power struggle between various factions including the stake high council, the twelve, and the remaining member of the first presidency Sidney Rigdon. At the time, nothing had been said concerning succession so they had to decide how things would shake out. Ultimately Brigham pushed for the idea that the twelve had the right to lead and the rest is history.

Instead of the quorums today being talked about as co-equal in authority, we are presented with a top-down hierarchical model where the presidency is at the top, the twelve below, and the seventy below that, and further down you have stake presidents and high councils. To make matters worse (in my opinion), we seem to ignore all of this by simply stating, "We are led by A prophet today" thus putting everything on one single man. Much of LDS speech in this regard makes it appear that we are just a group of people with a single prophet at the top. That is not how the church was or even IS organized. That kind of talk is a gross oversimplification at best and at worst it portrays a false paradigm of what should be.

To me, ignoring the co-equal quorums which could check and balance each other in favor for a king-like structure lends itself to corruption because when you put all the power in the hands of one man, that one man can potentially cause much more destruction. Whereas if we know that there are co-equal quorums with equal authority, one bad apple could be removed without tarnishing the trust of the leadership as a collective. D&C 107 notes that any of these quorums has the potential to make decisions "in unrighteousness" (vs.32) and in vs. 82 it mentions what happens if the President of the High Priesthood shall "transgress."

Instead, we walk what I feel is a dangerous line by referring to the president of the church as "beloved" and lifting him high to a state of adoration and praise. You may have noticed this with Elder Nelson. When President Monson was alive, he commanded all of the attention and Elder Nelson was simply another one of the twelve. Now that he is President Nelson that same attention given to Monson is centered on him and suddenly he is the most amazing person alive. I get that the church media department wants to profile the latest president of the church, and that's basically what media does is they try to inform questioning people as to who this person is and what qualifies them to lead.

I should probably state here that I have nothing personally against President Nelson or Monson. I'm sure they are wonderful people and may very well be deserving of all the praise heaped upon them. I look at them and think, "Those seem like respectable men." But I don't think we should be throwing massive birthday celebrations for them either or any other leader in the church. It is the office which is endowed with divine power, not the man, men are replaceable, even Joseph Smith was.

Should we be treating the call of a new president the same as the president of our nation which I would also say stinks grossly of that kingly worship we see in other nations? People love a king, they always have. I think it comes from an innate desire for a perfect heavenly king, but that adoration should never be centered in a mortal one. In my opinion, I think we should be leading the way in showing how co-equal quorums and authority provide for a greater check against corruption in governance. Something I think all nations of the earth could look at and desire to model. Instead, it seems that we are modeling them to a degree.

So when I say "current version" of the church you could point to a lot of things that distinguish it from past versions, many of which are good. The pointless priesthood restriction is gone and the gross crime of men taking on many wives has been eradicated in deed but not quite yet in thought.

Now, this doesn't mean that I live in a perpetual state of sour face about everything. I have witnessed what I feel is a rather unprecedented move by the church to more localized leadership and authority. I first noticed it when Stake misssionaries were changed to ward missionaries. Then the dedication of meetinghouses to the status of temples temporarily for temple dedications. After that, many more little interesting moves, and lately, the consolidation of the high priest group and elders quorum and the implementation of the ministering plan vs the old home and visiting teaching program.

Typically large organizations get more complex over time with more micromanaging. In the last few decades and especially this year we have seen the opposite which is very interesting. Think about it, before, home and visiting teaching had very specific objectives. Success meant getting into a home and teaching a lesson. As long as that happened it was assumed that people were being blessed. The numbers were tracked to see how successful the program was. Now there is no objective other than for the individual companionships to determine what is best of each family without any instruction from the leadership of the church and instead to work directly with the Lord. This is a massive organization putting an immense amount of trust in its own people, that cannot be understated as to how big of a deal that is to even come close to something like that in a large organization (especially a religious one). So kudos to the church under the leadership of President Nelson in this regard.

This latest conference marks another "version" of the church, an upgrade so to speak. There will be more changes in the future. Ultimately, we will be led by a king, Jesus Christ, and the current version of the church will be archived for something more complete and suited to a Zion people.

Until then, what we have now is what the Lord has permitted to be for the current time. So I lend my heart, might, and mind to the work at hand and seek to support everyone in their position so that we may be as successful as we can be with what we have today. I think that is all that we can do. Personally, I think it is foolish to leave this work for something lesser or to try and start something new. We know that the current iteration of the church is incomplete, that's not a surprise to anyone. We don't have all the scripture God intends for us, and there are many things yet to be revealed.

How that is all going to unfold, I don't quite know. It's possible that the Lord may cleanse his current house or ignite something new parallel to it and draw out the pure in heart. I don't quite know and honestly, it is not something I spend a ton of time thinking about other than here and there. The vast majority of my focus is on the doctrines and principles of the gospel, which, if you do read my blog, you'll notice an almost complete absence of controversial issues and references to current news and pop culture.

That's mostly due to the value that I place on certain information. I find it much more enriching and productive to study the doctrines and principles of the gospel and the endless fruit they bear, especially from the Book of Mormon. So while I do voice my opinion on controversial subjects here, my blog is far more reflective of what my usual study consists of. So anyway, long "answer" to a short question. Remember, I'm just some guy on the Internet, my ideas only have value if they are accurate so if you find me to be off-base with anything just ignore it, I'm only speaking for myself, I'm no prophet.

I appreciate the time and thoughts in the comments but think there may be more to discuss with the interpretation of section 107.

27 And every decision made by either of these quorums must be by the unanimous voice of the same; that is, every member in each quorum must be agreed to its decisions, in order to make their decisions of the same power or validity one with the other

Could section 27 be interpreted meaning within the 70 or 12 or first presidency, not amongst each of them?

91 And again, the duty of the President of the office of the High Priesthood is to preside over the whole church, and to be like unto Moses—

92 Behold, here is wisdom; yea, to be a seer, a revelator, a translator, and a prophet, having all the gifts of God which he bestows upon the head of the church.

These vs. would seem to indicate more of a top down approach mirroring the same structure we have today, no?

33 The Twelve are a Traveling Presiding High Council, to officiate in the name of the Lord, under the direction of the Presidency of the Church, agreeable to the institution of heaven; to build up the church, and regulate all the affairs of the same in all nations, first unto the Gentiles and secondly unto the Jews.

34 The Seventy are to act in the name of the Lord, under the direction of the Twelve or the traveling high council, in building up the church and regulating all the affairs of the same in all nations, first unto the Gentiles and then to the Jews;

[Thinker]

Thanks, Captainfearnot.
From the article:
“For Dodge, tithing is one of the main reasons he works on leaks.

“[The church] pushes tithing and donations very hard,” Dodge said. He choked up, adding that “it upsets” him when leaders “make broad statements like pay your tithing before you feed your family.” He served and LDS mission in Guatemala where he said he would tell families that they needed to pay tithing even when they were scrambling to find a can of beans to feed their family.

MormonLeaks has posted documents containing financials from the church including where some tithing dollars go. One such release, internal documents of the church showing the base living allowance of General Authorities, amounted to $120,000 per year in 2014 - estimated to $135,000 today with the general three percent cost of living increase used in past years.

One of the organization's leaks expected to be benign was one of the site's most viral. MormonLeaks obtained documents showing the average price of décor used inside each new temple.

“There was one very notable item, that was the rug in the bridal room” says McKnight. The average bridal rug: $17,000, which he notes means could translate to way more in some temples.”

One aspect that is self-evident that goes counter to scripture, is how finances are handled.
Oaks admitted that no tithes go to help the poor. Yet, in Deuteronomy 14:28-29, it clearly states that 1/3 of collected TITHES are to be given to the poor. And, if you look under "tithing" in your triple combination bible dictionary or indexes, you don't find such an important scripture about how leaders are supposed to handle sacred funds. Also, scriptures repeatedly state that tithes are to be based on INCREASE, but lds leaders have changed that and said tithes are now based on income. In doing so, they put unnecessary burdens on the poor - demanding they pay what they have not to give.
To explain this... consider 2 men earn same income. 1 man is sole provider of a family of 7, and after paying all bills, has no increase left. The 2nd man lives at his parents' home where all his bills are paid for him, so all of his income is increase. To demand both men to pay the same tithes is not of God, but happens. Also, priestcraft is like charging for temple worthiness.

Some might try to justify tithing collectors NOT sharing tithes with the poor by saying, "that's the law of Moses." Yes, it is the LOWER law. Jesus asked for much more. Jesus repeatedly commanded us to love one another and to help those in need. That is one of the highest commandments, "which hang all the law and the prophets."

In my opinion, there are 2 serious problems that need to have light brought to them:
1. Finances.
2. Cognitive distortions taught - while discouraging psych-ology (study of the soul), thereby contributing to depression, addiction, etc.
“13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.” -Matthew 23

I was wondering, is there a difference between kingdom of God & kingdom of heaven? Considering how Jesus used them interchangeably even within the same context, they are the same - or so closely related as to be no distinction. Considering Jesus was asked WHEN the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The kingdom of God cometh not with observation; neither shall they say, lo here or lo there. For behold, the kingdom of God is within you.” -Luke 17
The realm within us is obviously the means by which we feel the spirit and communicate God. Where else would it be? To suggest that it’s external or that one should not search one’s own soul (psych-ology) is deceptive and keeping people from entering into the kingdom of God/Heaven.

Speaking of psych-ology, and watching out for cognitive distortions - the church is not 100% true nor 100% false. The people (including leaders) are not 100% good nor 100% evil. There's a mix. I appreciate the church for the priceless sense of community and for the high standards that helped build a good foundation from which to build.

Gee where have I read this before?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xkW_ZkMtmlQ

Yes, in part, I quoted myself from the other thread because it needed repeating.
I don’t know if it is understood yet, because you still haven’t addressed the message, yet comment anyway.

I have addressed the message multiple times. We don't live the Mosaic law anymore. We believe in modern day revelation. Thru living Prophets. In our day. You obviously cant seem to grasp that concept so you keep repeating your same tired grievances against the church and the Brethren over and over and over again. Move on with your life Sister. Let it go. You will be glad you did. Life will be much more positive for you.

You don’t live the law of Moses anymore? Then you don’t even honor the 10-commandments, or the law of tithing which was began with the law of Moses? Hm... should I be glad I don’t know you in real life - because you seem to see laws of Moses like “thou shalt not kill” & “thou shalt not steal” as sooooo old-school-Mosaic.

Obviously some laws like those about how many steps one can take on the Sabbath, are irrelevant. But some laws are essential. One way to discern which laws are important to obey is by what Jesus said... to love God and love others above all prophets and other laws. The commandment of tithing collectors to give TITHES to the poor, is in keeping with Christ’s greatest commandments, as is not to steal, not to kill etc. In fact, if we do not obey the law of tithing as it is to help the poor, then we will be as goats - damned in hell, in Jesus’s parable.

[Thinker]

I don’t know if it is understood yet, because you still haven’t addressed the message, yet comment anyway.

Your interpretation has been challenged a few times but you fail to respond.
Deuteronomy mentions multiple tithes. The one you reference is a tithe every 3 years of the produce. The first tithe, the one I'm sure you don't love, goes to the Priests for their services. It's a tithe of all. Most people interpret Deuteronomy annual tithes as a total of 23%. Today it's been revealed through Joseph Smith that a tithe is a tenth and nothing is mentioned about the poor. The revelation on the use of tithing is this-
2 For the building of mine house, and for the laying of the foundation of Zion and for the priesthood, and for the debts of the Presidency of my Church.
3 And this shall be the beginning of the tithing of my people.
Isaiah claims that the fast offering is to be used for the poor. This is also what the church teaches today. Great are the words of Isaiah, right?
We can also read in Deuteronomy what a tithe is measured from-
22 Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.
Every year the field has to be replanted with seeds. What the seeds produce from a bare field is increase. If you don't plant anything you get nothing. If you plant a little, your increase is a little, but whatever you get is an increase from nothing. If you get nothing, you tithe nothing. There is no increase.
How much of the increase is tithed? "All". It's also described as a tenth of everything that goes under the rod. What goes under the rod? Everything. That's how they measured what their production or increase was.
32 And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD.
And of course Abraham paid a tenth of ALL that he possessed.
From the Book of Mormon-
15 And it was this same Melchizedek to whom Abraham paid tithes; yea, even our father Abraham paid tithes of one-tenth part of all he possessed.
You might not like or agree with this interpretation, but it's a solid one.

You did not give any source for your “23% annual tithes” figure. It seems you made it up because tithe is specifically mentioned in Deuteronomy and tithe literally means 1/10 or 10%.
Sorry but even if you were not so off about that, that is not solid but a weak attempt to justify ignoring important commandments. You ignore Christ’s teachings and the spirit that testifies of the need to love and care for those in need.
And you still have not addressed:

1) 1/3 of TITHES are commanded to be given to the poor as stated in Deut. 14:28-29, yet Oaks admitted NO church tithes go to charity. And when I search my lds scriptures’ bible index and topical guide under “tithing” why is such an important scripture explaining tithing collectors’ responsibility, missing? If I knew a bank hid their financial dealings, and tried to keep laws they’re breaking hidden, would I be a wise steward to invest with them? Are spiritual matters less important than financial matters?

The law of tithing (Deut. 14:28-29) that requires tithing collectors to give 1/3 to the poor goes along with the greatest commandments to love God (& as we love others we love God) & to love others - especially those who are in great need. And it’s almost as if Christ predicted some would try to make up “new & improved” laws that justify denying tithes to the poor because after explaining these greatest commandments he added, “on these 2 commandments hang ALL THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS.”

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.-Matt 25

2) Tithing is based on INCREASE, not income, according to scriptures - never do scriptures state it is based on income. As explained, when asking members to pay money who have no increase left by pretending tithes is now on “income” is creating &/or exasperating poverty.
Again, scriptures say tithing based on increase for a reason:
IE: 2 men earn the same income. 1 man is sole provider of a family of 7, and after paying all bills, has no increase left. The 2nd man lives at his parents' home where all his bills are paid for him, so all of his income is increase. To demand both men to pay the same tithes is not of God, but happens & places heavy burdens on many, but would not if the law of tithing were obeyed in a Christlike manner.

3) To be considered “worthy” to enter a lds temple, & to be a “member in good standing,” one must pay $$$$, as one temple recommend question is about tithes and we have anual “tithing settlements” where members are scrutinized to see if they are “full tithe payers.” Sounds like priestcraft - trying to sell what God gives each of us free and personally - each soul is precious in God’s eyes - no money required. And why is it members are scrutinized so carefully while those handling sacred funds keep it dark and secret, while building a corporate empire using Christ’s name?

Matthew 23: “Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2 Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.

[gardener4life]

You know you don't have to prove anything to these guys. They are just stirring up trouble. There's nothing that says we have to PROVE where something comes from about God in the scriptures regarding prior examples. By this I mean God can give us something new if he wants to and we wouldn't have to show it in the Old Testament because that book has been tampered with so much. It's true that there are rational explanations that are in the scriptures but it's the doubters job to save his own soul and do his own homework, not have others do it for him.

There's also no law that says we have to let people just cause trouble here on the forums and start contention or be argumentative. These people aren't not just having a different opinion but are trying to to twist things around and cause trouble. There's a distinction between different opinions and digging a pit for a neighbor.

That was the whole reason the outer darkness section was created, to confine the contentious people and those that are Korihors over into a space where they can do less damage.

[Love]

Don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Just like the church out with the Mormon leaks.

[Tbone]

Ah, how nice. Yet another enlightening discussion on tithing.

[Thinker]

^That neglectful, apathetic attitude toward the poor and how TITHES are supposed to be given to the poor (Deut. 14:28-29) may be partly why almost 1,000,000,000 of our brothers and sisters are "chronically hungry."


“Many churches demand tithes saying it is Biblical but neglect the other Biblical mandates put in place by God to manage and distribute those tithes.

The Old and New Testament purpose for wealth was not to be rich or impress people but to do the work of God and share with those in need. [Deuteronomy 15, Leviticus 25, Matthew 19:21, Ephesians 4:28] Today, many people give "tithes" to already wealthy and successful people with little to no thought to those in need. The focus of giving has become getting instead of distributing resources to assist the needs of others. Christ taught to sell your possessions and to give donations to the poor. [Luke 12:33]

It is clear that any church mandating tithes should be spending AT LEAST ONE THIRD of their income on the poor since that is what was required under mandated tithing. How many churches come close to this? I know of none. Yet it is not uncommon for some ministers to call their parishioners thieves, or at the least disobedient, if they don't tithe. It's all of the law or none of it. According to Biblical tithing, aren't the churches stealing by not giving a third of mandated tithes to the less fortunate?

Church leaders should not be "creatively constructing" doctrine, teaching that biblical tithing is giving 10% of their gross or net income, picking and choosing what part of the tithing law they will follow, mandating amounts or mixing law with Grace.
A tithe is a tenth, but a tenth of what and how is it handled? If one wants to teach a tithe is 10% of gross or net income do NOT call it biblical tithing. It is NOT God's plan, it is YOUR plan for giving, NOT the biblical agrarian or pre-law plan. Since it is YOUR plan, be extra careful about putting stumbling blocks into people's path by purporting that your plan is God's law resulting in judgment if not followed.

The Bible teaches to give "as God has prospered us," and "according to our ability and means." [2 Corinthians 8:11 2 Corinthians 9:5-13 Acts 11:29]

Why is tithing taught the way it is today? It can be VERY profitable for one. Other reasons are control, greed and sometimes ignorance. Ignorance is free and it is easy and profitable to control people through guilt, obligation or manipulation of the greed inherent in most of us.
Many church leaders will call non-tithers thieves or preach tithing with condemnation, obligation or fear to manipulate people into compliance. Preachers do this without knowing the sacrifices people have to make or the obligations people have. The whole issue of giving becomes a stumbling block, an oppression of the poor and needy and a "required payment" instead of worship. An obligatory payment is not "giving." Whatsoever is not of faith is SIN, so let's end this nonsense and abuse.

The story of the Widow's mite makes crystal clear it is the relationship to money, the attitude of the giver and the sacrifice made that is important. Christ said the Widow gave MORE than the rich, despite the rich's large offerings. [Mark 12:41-44] Clearly Christ focused on the sacrifice made, NOT the amounts given. For the wealthy to feel the same sacrifice as a poor person giving 10% of their income, a wealthy person would have to give perhaps upwards of 90% or more of their income, depending.

The Bible is filled with warnings against oppressing the poor. The convoluted mandated income based tithing doctrine around today is clearly NOT something God would author since it is oppressive to the poor. Remember mandated law tithing was NOT income based. Christ was impressed with the sacrifice made in an offering, NOT the amounts given. If a rich person gives 10% and feels no sacrifice whatsoever, the same Christ that wasn't impressed with the large offerings in Mark 12:41-44 would not be impressed with the same offerings today.

Some teach "tithing" as law blatantly and without shame. Many use subtle mind twisters that go something like this, "No, tithing isn't mandatory, but if you’re a child of God you will want to give 10% of your income" or some similar obligation and guilt creating technique. Others may be told to direct their money, not to someone in need, but to the "ministry where the financial anointing is flowing." It will be "suggested" that they may not be blessed otherwise. Others cunningly use the, "I didn't say it, God did," canard when proclaiming misapplied scripture or the misapplied "Malachi Curse" discussed in Section 10. Others say, "All your money belongs to God." While everything does come from and belongs to God, remember that God also said, "The laborer is worthy of his hire." That scripture is true for all, not just those doing the work of God. Christ taught to sell what you own and donate to the poor showing a considerably different focus on money and giving than many of today's prosperity teachers. [Luke 12:33]

It is an important distinction that in a theocracy (as in ancient times) the church IS the government with all the responsibilities of government. Today the church does not deed land, run a court system, legislate and govern, maintain and run armed forces, police, tax, distribute public resources, act as the Board of Health, Pension Board etc., and do all the other responsibilities of government. [Yet, they charge tithes even more - because now it is incorrectly based on income rather than increase.]

Some go so far as to teach that mandated tithing only "opens the window for blessing" and the giving over and above the tithe is what brings the "windfall" blessing through the window opened by tithing. So with the average American "tithing" 30-35% of their income to the Government for functions that the church no longer handles and "tithing" 10% to the temple PLUS offerings, Americans are expected to live off of about 50% of their income according to most mandated tithing teachers.

One minister stated, "We don't allow people to serve in the church who are not confirmed tithers." This is a MAN MADE edict, NOT in ANY way a scriptural one. Did Paul ever demand tithes for anyone who served in the church? Did the New Testament make tithing mandatory for ANY position of service? First this minister seems unaware that, for those choosing to tithe pursuant to true biblical teaching as taught in this document, ANYTHING could be tithed to the Lord such as gifts, talents, possessions, time, service etc. However, I wonder if this minister asked any of these people if they had ANY personal ministries of assisting the body of Christ or the poor and needy, or was his only concern what they were giving to the temple monetarily? The Hebrews under agrarian law tithing had to declare that they had honestly given the tithe, "...to the Levite, the stranger, the sojourner, the fatherless and to the widow..." [Deuteronomy 26:13-15][Who teaches that God’s monetary system is based on $$$$$?]

Do the proponents of mandated tithing consider or inquire as to whether a person is paying mandated tithes with corrupted seed such as neglecting other vows, going further into debt or not properly handling other obligations? ALL of these are biblical considerations which could result in God REJECTING the tithe. I don't believe I have ever heard one message on these biblical considerations. God is much more impressed with HONEST giving and RESPONSIBLE living than he is with guilt or fear driven giving. Mandated tithing teachers make it sound like you aren't "putting God first" if you consider your vows before tithing. Yet those same teachers will tell a business that it is "right" to pay their vows [bills, expenses, responsibilities etc.] first and then tithe on the profits.

Many tithing Christians will tithe out of fear of the misappropriated "Malachi Curse" ignoring the fact their neighbor is in need. These Christians are thinking that when they get their "windfall" from tithing, they will then help the needy. You can't "put God first" by neglecting the poor and needy, vows, responsibilities or commitments. If that is what you're doing, it isn't because you are putting God first. It is because you're hoping God will be impressed enough with you and your giving to give you a windfall financial blessing.

What is "profit" and why is Faith Based Abrahamic Covenant Tithing profit based? PROFIT is what is left after paying necessary, obligatory expenses which are VOWS in one form or another. God doesn't want what is vowed to others so one can't vow to God what is vowed to others. One can figure out their PROFITS by deducting necessary, obligatory expenses [vows] from their take home pay. This would include all necessary expenses of living. This will give people what, for many, would be a good starting figure from which to start giving. Then they can give a "tithe" based on profit. Additional giving, which would be appropriate for many people, would be offerings.”
http://tithinginfo.com

[shadow]

I don’t know if it is understood yet, because you still haven’t addressed the message, yet comment anyway.

Your interpretation has been challenged a few times but you fail to respond.
Deuteronomy mentions multiple tithes. The one you reference is a tithe every 3 years of the produce. The first tithe, the one I'm sure you don't love, goes to the Priests for their services. It's a tithe of all. Most people interpret Deuteronomy annual tithes as a total of 23%. Today it's been revealed through Joseph Smith that a tithe is a tenth and nothing is mentioned about the poor. The revelation on the use of tithing is this-
2 For the building of mine house, and for the laying of the foundation of Zion and for the priesthood, and for the debts of the Presidency of my Church.
3 And this shall be the beginning of the tithing of my people.
Isaiah claims that the fast offering is to be used for the poor. This is also what the church teaches today. Great are the words of Isaiah, right?
We can also read in Deuteronomy what a tithe is measured from-
22 Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.
Every year the field has to be replanted with seeds. What the seeds produce from a bare field is increase. If you don't plant anything you get nothing. If you plant a little, your increase is a little, but whatever you get is an increase from nothing. If you get nothing, you tithe nothing. There is no increase.
How much of the increase is tithed? "All". It's also described as a tenth of everything that goes under the rod. What goes under the rod? Everything. That's how they measured what their production or increase was.
32 And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD.
And of course Abraham paid a tenth of ALL that he possessed.
From the Book of Mormon-
15 And it was this same Melchizedek to whom Abraham paid tithes; yea, even our father Abraham paid tithes of one-tenth part of all he possessed.
You might not like or agree with this interpretation, but it's a solid one.

You did not give any source for your “23% annual tithes” figure. It seems you made it up because tithe is specifically mentioned in Deuteronomy and tithe literally means 1/10 or 10%.
Sorry but even if you were not so off about that, that is not solid but a weak attempt to justify ignoring important commandments. You ignore Christ’s teachings and the spirit that testifies of the need to love and care for those in need.
And you still have not addressed:

1) 1/3 of TITHES are commanded to be given to the poor as stated in Deut. 14:28-29, yet Oaks admitted NO church tithes go to charity. And when I search my lds scriptures’ bible index and topical guide under “tithing” why is such an important scripture explaining tithing collectors’ responsibility, missing? If I knew a bank hid their financial dealings, and tried to keep laws they’re breaking hidden, would I be a wise steward to invest with them? Are spiritual matters less important than financial matters?

The law of tithing (Deut. 14:28-29) that requires tithing collectors to give 1/3 to the poor goes along with the greatest commandments to love God (& as we love others we love God) & to love others - especially those who are in great need. And it’s almost as if Christ predicted some would try to make up “new & improved” laws that justify denying tithes to the poor because after explaining these greatest commandments he added, “on these 2 commandments hang ALL THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS.”

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.-Matt 25

2) Tithing is based on INCREASE, not income, according to scriptures - never do scriptures state it is based on income. As explained, when asking members to pay money who have no increase left by pretending tithes is now on “income” is creating &/or exasperating poverty.
Again, scriptures say tithing based on increase for a reason:
IE: 2 men earn the same income. 1 man is sole provider of a family of 7, and after paying all bills, has no increase left. The 2nd man lives at his parents' home where all his bills are paid for him, so all of his income is increase. To demand both men to pay the same tithes is not of God, but happens & places heavy burdens on many, but would not if the law of tithing were obeyed in a Christlike manner.

3) To be considered “worthy” to enter a lds temple, & to be a “member in good standing,” one must pay $$$$, as one temple recommend question is about tithes and we have anual “tithing settlements” where members are scrutinized to see if they are “full tithe payers.” Sounds like priestcraft - trying to sell what God gives each of us free and personally - each soul is precious in God’s eyes - no money required. And why is it members are scrutinized so carefully while those handling sacred funds keep it dark and secret, while building a corporate empire using Christ’s name?

Matthew 23: “Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2 Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.

I didn't make up the 23% tithe. Many faiths teach this. The OT is fairly clear- there's a general tithe, a worship tithe and every 3rd year there's a welfare tithe. That's the one you're concerned about.

Then the scriptures teach that the Levites who serve in the church receive ALL the tithes for their inheritance. Nothing about the poor.
21 And, behold, I have given the children of Levi all the tenth in Israel for an inheritance, for their service which they serve, even the service of the tabernacle of the congregation.
Are you upset that all the tithes don't go for the benefit of those who serve the church, specifically the GA's? I didn't think so. If we were to follow that particular scripture then ALL the tenth (tithe) goes to those who serve the church for their inheritance.

You assume incorrectly that tithing is the way to care for the poor and therefore if tithing doesn't go to help the poor then those in charge of tithing don't love God or their neighbors (two great commandments). That's just silly. The church follows the teachings of Christ by following what Isaiah taught- the fast offering cares for the poor. The church also teaches us to help others wherever and whenever possible on our own volition. The church follows the revelation given to Joseph Smith regarding the use of tithing funds. I've quoted it for you multiple times from the D&C.
The use of tithing funds-
2 For the building of mine house, and for the laying of the foundation of Zion and for the priesthood, and for the debts of the Presidency of my Church.


The use of fast offering funds-
6 Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?
7 Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?

It's all in the scriptures.

[Thinker]

You did not give any source for your “23% annual tithes” figure. It seems you made it up because tithe is specifically mentioned in Deuteronomy and tithe literally means 1/10 or 10%.
Sorry but even if you were not so off about that, that is not solid but a weak attempt to justify ignoring important commandments. You ignore Christ’s teachings and the spirit that testifies of the need to love and care for those in need.
And you still have not addressed:

1) 1/3 of TITHES are commanded to be given to the poor as stated in Deut. 14:28-29, yet Oaks admitted NO church tithes go to charity. And when I search my lds scriptures’ bible index and topical guide under “tithing” why is such an important scripture explaining tithing collectors’ responsibility, missing? If I knew a bank hid their financial dealings, and tried to keep laws they’re breaking hidden, would I be a wise steward to invest with them? Are spiritual matters less important than financial matters?

The law of tithing (Deut. 14:28-29) that requires tithing collectors to give 1/3 to the poor goes along with the greatest commandments to love God (& as we love others we love God) & to love others - especially those who are in great need. And it’s almost as if Christ predicted some would try to make up “new & improved” laws that justify denying tithes to the poor because after explaining these greatest commandments he added, “on these 2 commandments hang ALL THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS.”

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.-Matt 25

2) Tithing is based on INCREASE, not income, according to scriptures - never do scriptures state it is based on income. As explained, when asking members to pay money who have no increase left by pretending tithes is now on “income” is creating &/or exasperating poverty.
Again, scriptures say tithing based on increase for a reason:
IE: 2 men earn the same income. 1 man is sole provider of a family of 7, and after paying all bills, has no increase left. The 2nd man lives at his parents' home where all his bills are paid for him, so all of his income is increase. To demand both men to pay the same tithes is not of God, but happens & places heavy burdens on many, but would not if the law of tithing were obeyed in a Christlike manner.

3) To be considered “worthy” to enter a lds temple, & to be a “member in good standing,” one must pay $$$$, as one temple recommend question is about tithes and we have anual “tithing settlements” where members are scrutinized to see if they are “full tithe payers.” Sounds like priestcraft - trying to sell what God gives each of us free and personally - each soul is precious in God’s eyes - no money required. And why is it members are scrutinized so carefully while those handling sacred funds keep it dark and secret, while building a corporate empire using Christ’s name?

Matthew 23: “Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2 Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.

I didn't make up the 23% tithe. Many faiths teach this. The OT is fairly clear- there's a general tithe, a worship tithe and every 3rd year there's a welfare tithe. That's the one you're concerned about.

Then the scriptures teach that the Levites who serve in the church receive ALL the tithes for their inheritance. Nothing about the poor.
21 And, behold, I have given the children of Levi all the tenth in Israel for an inheritance, for their service which they serve, even the service of the tabernacle of the congregation.
Are you upset that all the tithes don't go for the benefit of those who serve the church, specifically the GA's? I didn't think so. If we were to follow that particular scripture then ALL the tenth (tithe) goes to those who serve the church for their inheritance.

You assume incorrectly that tithing is the way to care for the poor and therefore if tithing doesn't go to help the poor then those in charge of tithing don't love God or their neighbors (two great commandments). That's just silly. The church follows the teachings of Christ by following what Isaiah taught- the fast offering cares for the poor. The church also teaches us to help others wherever and whenever possible on our own volition. The church follows the revelation given to Joseph Smith regarding the use of tithing funds. I've quoted it for you multiple times from the D&C.
The use of tithing funds-
2 For the building of mine house, and for the laying of the foundation of Zion and for the priesthood, and for the debts of the Presidency of my Church.
The use of fast offering funds-
6 Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?
7 Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?
It's all in the scriptures.

"Nothing about the poor" - you wrote. Hm...
Deuteronomy 14:28-29: "At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the TITHE of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates: And the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest."

Why do you ignore the "stranger, fatherless and widow? Does the spirit of Christ teach to pretend that they don't exist?

Still no sources for that 23% some how meaning "tithe." Isn't it obvious that tithe means tenth? It's the root word! (tithe: from Old English teogoþa (Anglian), teoþa (West Saxon) "tenth," from Proto-Germanic *teguntha, from PIE *dekmto-, from PIE root *dekm- "ten.")
It blows my mind how some can ignore facts like this! And it is frustrating because so many suffer because of such pride!

Again, please address the points I made. The fact that you haven't addressed them shows that there is no response you can give.
It is what it is and you can't twist reality enough to make it look different than it is.
Yet, I know that people who are searching for truth and who worship God above men, will see what spirit teaches to prioritize money over the poor, in denying Christ's greatest commandments.

[shadow]

There was nothing about the poor in the scripture from Numbers I quoted. That's what i was specifically referring to.
21 And, behold, I have given the children of Levi all the tenth in Israel for an inheritance, for their service which they serve, even the service of the tabernacle of the congregation. -see, nothing about the poor.
I'm familiar with the once every three year welfare tithe found in Deuteronomy. Numbers doesn't reference it and Numbers is prior to Deuteronomy. It was changed in Deuteronomy. I guess things can change


Why do you ignore what was revealed to Joseph Smith regarding the purpose of tithing?

Why do you ignore the fast offering purpose revealed by Isaiah?

Why do you ignore the FACT that the church helps the poor?



How many tithes are there in the OT? It's really not a big deal since it's NOT applicable to us but there are 3. I named them in my previous post. I don't know if it totaled roughly 23.3% or not but there were 3 tithes- the general tithe, the worship tithe and the welfare tithe which was once every 3 yrs. The two annual tithes and the once every 3 year tithe equals roughly 23.3% total in tithes.

How can a tithe be more OR LESS than 10%? It can't. A tithe means 10th. How many tithes can there be? Many . A tithe is similar to a tax. Do you own your home? If so, how many taxes on your property are levied? A lot. Since you're in Utah, how many taxes are levied on your home just for schools? Many.
Today we have 1 tithe. The Lord very well could reveal that he wants to levy another specific tithe in addition to the general tithe. That's up to Him but so far fast offerings seem to be working.

A tithe! A tithe! We have got a tithe, and there cannot be any more tithe.

[Thinker]

Shadow,
I prioritize Christ’s teaching over any other person’s.
This is NOT “the church of prophets,” but is THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST.
Did you know that the law of tithing Joseph Smith initiated was different than it is today? Back then, the poor were not made poorer because before, they honored tithing as based on INCREASE, not income.
This thread explains in more detail...
https://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtop ... ng+surplus

You still have not addressed the main points about priestcraft, the difference between income and increase, finances and how they are commanded to be distributed but are not. And also you have not acknowledged that the tithes back then paid for government work - where as now the church is separate from the state.

That's up to Him but so far fast offerings seem to be working.

No, they are not "working." Almost 1,000,000,000 of our brothers and sisters are starving - thousands DIE EVERY DAY due to related causes. I'm talking about people who do not have clean water or sufficient food, clothing and shelter - and no resources to help them.

If all of the churches who demand tithes actually obeyed THEIR RESPONSIBILITY in giving AT LEAST 1/3 of TITHES to the poor - & to researching how to best help those in need, a lot of suffering would be eliminated. But greed, pride and prioritizing people over God rule.

[Col. Flagg]

If you want some great insight into what the church does with its tithing money and how the corporate church operates, I highly recommend listening to this - it's 2 hours long but worth every minute...

http://mormonstories.wpengine.com/podca ... ithPt3.mp3

http://mormonstories.wpengine.com/podca ... ithPt4.mp3

[Lizzy60]

My great-grandmother was an avid anti-Catholic, believing they were the Church of the Devil. She used to tell me that it was very apparent that they were not the true church, because the church itself had tons of money, and yet many of their members literally starved to death. This was back in the days when the LDS church was actually trying to get out of debt, instead of being the wealthy church we are today.

When a member of the Twelve tells us that they invest wisely, and save some funds for a rainy day, I see children like the ones Thinker posted, and I realize we are no better than the Catholics my great-grandmother despised.

And as for God, well He told me that this qualifies as a whoredom in His eyes. Almost knocked me off my feet, His words were so vivid, and full of righteous anger.

There are literally billions of reasons the financial books are closed to the members.

[ajax]

When a member of the Twelve tells us that they invest wisely, and save some funds for a rainy day, I see children like the ones Thinker posted, and I realize we are no better than the Catholics my great-grandmother despised.

To be fair, how is it my responsibility to properly care for another person thousands of miles away half way around the world. Throwing money to organizations who may or may not deliver seems spurious at best. Our responsibilities are in our spheres of influence, which for most of us is extremely local. Granted, a member of the 12's influence may be much larger than ours, but there is no way random pictures on the internet for which he specifically has no way to relieve suffering can fall at his or any of our feet. Perhaps they should fall on Gods feet. Apparently sparrows and whatnot are looked after more.

[ajax]

For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed;
neither hid, that shall not be known.
Therefore whatsoever ye have spoken in darkness
shall be heard in the light;
and that which ye have spoken in the ear in closets
shall be proclaimed upon the housetops.

And the rebellious shall be pierced with much sorrow; for their iniquities shall be spoken upon the housetops, and their secret acts shall be revealed.

Therefore, that we should waste and wear out our lives in bringing to light all the hidden things of darkness, wherein we know them; and they are truly manifest from heaven—

If the hiders of hidden things won't reveal, who will?

[gardener4life]

Shadow,
I prioritize Christ’s teaching over any other person’s.
This is NOT “the church of prophets,” but is THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST.
Did you know that the law of tithing Joseph Smith initiated was different than it is today? Back then, the poor were not made poorer because before, they honored tithing as based on INCREASE, not income.
This thread explains in more detail...
https://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtop ... ng+surplus

You still have not addressed the main points about priestcraft, the difference between income and increase, finances and how they are commanded to be distributed but are not. And also you have not acknowledged that the tithes back then paid for government work - where as now the church is separate from the state.

That's up to Him but so far fast offerings seem to be working.

No, they are not "working." Almost 1,000,000,000 of our brothers and sisters are starving - thousands DIE EVERY DAY due to related causes. I'm talking about people who do not have clean water or sufficient food, clothing and shelter - and no resources to help them.

If all of the churches who demand tithes actually obeyed THEIR RESPONSIBILITY in giving AT LEAST 1/3 of TITHES to the poor - & to researching how to best help those in need, a lot of suffering would be eliminated. But greed, pride and prioritizing people over God rule.

I'm kind of tired of your laws and BS. You guys are full of filth and coming up with some really outlandish crap. You shouldn't even be allowed here. All I see for the last few comments are trying to mislead and confuse people with lies.

You are very good at twisting things around.

For starters the pictures of starving kids you guys are putting up are FROM COUNTRIES that WE are NOT permitted to enter into or proselyte into! If we can't enter into those countries legally its very difficult to help them. If we don't have our own people in there we don't know if things we've sent to help is even getting there, and usually things get stolen before they reach there. Those are very clearly muslim children, and we are not able to do work in many forms still in most muslim countries! And people are reading your filth and and anti crap.

Also the UN recently found out people in Syria were trying to force women into sex before they would let them have humanitarian aid packages. So they were holding the packages hostage. We didn't make them hold these people hostage. But its happening.

People give and try to help others all the time. This is what fast offerings are for. But it's more than about money. You can't just throw money at a problem. It's also about managing the money. Managing it is even more than half the battle because you have to organize and make sure you get good gas mileage out of it. You can't do that without your OWN people doing it. We still don't have people everywhere and you attacking volunteers with your propaganda before they get there doesn't help the problem but only accelerates the damage.

Also the people claiming we let people starve have never been to the Humanitarian Center that the church has in Salt Lake. That entire building is for helping refugees. It has resources for all kinds of problems there. If you want to really know if this guy's lies are just that lies then go visit the Humanitarian Center in Salt Lake and see for yourselves. They also help refugees transition into our society with job help and you can see them actually sorting clothes to be sent to other refugees and other aid packages. And to top it off it's all happening in a building that used to make WW2 artillery shells. (...turn swords into plowshares...) There's a whole section in there just for how to help starving people also, and they have food specially made for starving people when you go upstairs. If you go in there you can see it and a huge chunk of the refugees working in there are are also from Africa and Middle Eastern countries and other third world countries.

But you guys wouldn't know this because you haven't even bothered to check out the filth and lies you spread.

We absolutely also are not just like other people that let people starve. And we don't do the bad things you guys on this thread are accusing of leting people die. I've never seen such obvious crap in my life. I've heard discussions from good LDS people I know saying, I'd send a barrel of rice over to Ethiopia or Sudan tomorrow if I knew it would actually reach the people that need it. This was my fourth grade teacher that said that a few years ago. The real problem is how to get it to a lawless area where people are committing acts of violence to take the food and with political instability. It's often unsafe for aid workers to go into these areas. Even the Houston hurricane they had reservations about letting volunteer LDS workers and Non-LDS go in also because of safety reasons. People help out others all the time with stuff like this, and if people would look beyond your crap they'd see it.

People want to do good and help those people but there isn't always infrastructure for doing so. When you see areas we can't get into yet, there's a reason for that and it's not always our fault. Somebody has to organize work. Sometimes they won't let us have visas and passports in a country or have a small quota on those numbers even after they let our people in. And that's all before you even start missionaries organizing other locals to help them with service projects. Let's say you did want to send them food, if you were going to do so you'd have to use your own networks because part of why those countries still have starving people in them is because their own people and others steal the resources before they get to the destination.

So the only way to really reach them is a combined effort of many types of work and human resources controlled from within being allowed into those countries before a real rescue effort can begin. In the case of rescuing handcart companies in Brigham Young's time, people could do so because they didn't have to worry about people stealing the resources before it would reach the destination. Even after they let us in there are a lot of restrictions. The list of places we're trying to reach is still enormously long;

Just recently the Clinton's and the other Presidents did that fundraiser last fall/winter to raise money for hurricane victims. Guess what, less than 3% of the total money actually even went to those people.

There is INFINITE need in this world. The problems of mortality are adversity because no matter how much good we try to do there is always going to be more needs to fill, even when you are doing everything you can. People who say we don't care and do nothing don't know what they are talking about.