Mormon Leaks Interview Discussion

[Thinker]

Mark,
Tough to argue with Christ’s teaching, isn’t it?
Easier to just plug your spiritual ears and sing, “La, la la...”

[Craig Johnson]

What a poor and sorry lot many of the posters on this website show themselves to be in their opinions. People who think they have a right to criticize the church leadership and authority and not savvy enough to know they are actually criticizing the Lord. The patheticism and pure ignorance of spiritual matters and what the church is really all about are conspicuous. People who do not know the Spirit and perhaps in this life never will. They just have "words" but they know not and do not operate in the "Spirit." Of course we can expect, as usual, that they will say that they do. "Words."

[shadow]

Mark,
Tough to argue with Christ’s teaching, isn’t it?
Easier to just plug your spiritual ears and sing, “La, la la...”

There's nothing to argue. You're twisting a lot of scripture to get the meaning you want.

Just plug your spiritual ears and flaunt your pride and sing "La, la, la..."
The Lord has spoken regarding the use of tithing in our day-

2 For the building of mine house, and for the laying of the foundation of Zion and for the priesthood, and for the debts of the Presidency of my Church.

It's tough to argue with Christ's teaching, isn't it? But somehow you try to find a way

[Thinker]

Shadow,
That’s not Christ’s teaching and goes contrary to the greatest commandments, “which hang all the law and the prophets.”

Again, if I have to choose between following Christ and church leaders, I choose Christ.
Not that I can’t learn from some good that church leaders say or do - but when it comes to finances and tithing - I’m definitely not going to give it to a corporate empire that is not honest and forthcoming about its finances. I will continue doing as Christ taught.

Matthew 25:31-46:

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

[shadow]

Shadow,
That’s not Christ’s teaching and goes contrary to the greatest commandments, “which hang all the law and the prophets.”

It is Christ's teaching and it does not go contrary to the greatest commandments. If you'd pull your fingers out of your ears, lift your eyes a bit and stop focusing so hard on kicking against the pricks you might learn a thing or two about the use of tithing and the greatest of the commandments. Then YOU might actually start keeping those commandments

Why dost thou offer sacrifices unto the Lord? And Adam said unto him: I know not, save the Lord commanded me.

You're so stuck in your pride that you can't even be asked why you sacrifice unto the Lord by paying tithing. There's no chance you'll learn the reason why the Lord commands it if you don't even obey it.

And again, you bring up the poor widow and her 2 mites. Here's a big clue- Where was she paying it? You claim it was to a den of thieves and yet the Lord didn't stop her or correct her. But you're sooo much smarter than that silly widow
It's not our call to decide where tithes go. It's our job to pay the tithe. The Lord calls people to care for the disposition of the tithes and thus far they're doing exactly what was revealed to Joseph to do. Oh, Joseph was a liar in your book? If something disagrees with your interpretation then it certainly isn't you who is wrong, it's the prophet, even Joseph. Keep kicking.

kicking.jpg (36.16 KiB) Viewed 3320 times

[nightlight]

Shadow,
That’s not Christ’s teaching and goes contrary to the greatest commandments, “which hang all the law and the prophets.”

Again, if I have to choose between following Christ and church leaders, I choose Christ.
Not that I can’t learn from some good that church leaders say or do - but when it comes to finances and tithing - I’m definitely not going to give it to a corporate empire that is not honest and forthcoming about its finances. I will continue doing as Christ taught.

Matthew 25:31-46:

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Why don't you tell them what you really believe about Christ? This is ridiculous.

[Thinker]

Shadow,
Thanks for the roasts. Maybe I’ll reply to them sometime.
Jesus kicked against the pricks - called religious leaders out on their evil ways, calling them hypocrites. Why? Not out of hatred except for their sins - but out of love - out of striving for the highest GOoD for them and others.

[Thinker]

Shadow,
That’s not Christ’s teaching and goes contrary to the greatest commandments, “which hang all the law and the prophets.”

Again, if I have to choose between following Christ and church leaders, I choose Christ.
Not that I can’t learn from some good that church leaders say or do - but when it comes to finances and tithing - I’m definitely not going to give it to a corporate empire that is not honest and forthcoming about its finances. I will continue doing as Christ taught.

Matthew 25:31-46:

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Why don't you tell them what you really believe about Christ? This is ridiculous.

I believe in Christ not in the twisted human sacrifice scapegoat way, but as in how Jesus became Christ and encouraged us to follow and be as Christ. What is ridiculous is pretending God demands human sacrifice scapegoating to compensate for the way God created us, as works in progress. What’s ridiculous is taking spiritual parables literally as if they are history or science books. But it’s understandable because “so many go along with it - it must be true” I used to think. But it’s damning - holding us back.

A lot of what Christ is about was corrupt by the many “Universal” (Catholic & crucading) church councils and thousands of changes were made when King James and other religious/political leaders put the bible together their way. Then Joseph Smith based Mormonism on the warped Christianity.

It’s imperative to study it out, think it through and pray to know what is true. Many have helped me... a friend who left FLDS but still sees good in Mormonism, books like The Power of Now, Putting on the mind of Christ and Jordan Peterson’s bible series. But each is not perfect. I’ve been repeatedly reminded to not look to anyone as infallible - but to take what portion belongs to me, as Joseph Smith suggested.

[Mark]

2 For the building of mine house, and for the laying of the foundation of Zion and for the priesthood, and for the debts of the Presidency of my Church.

Thinker this verse concerning the purposes of tithing comes from the revelations given thru the Prophet Joseph Smith to the Saints. It is found in a book of scripture known as The Doctrine & Covenants. You say it does not come from the Lord Jesus the Christ. Since it is clear you do not accept or believe these revelations found in the Doctrine & Covenants are scripture why are we even having this discussion about LDS beliefs? This is a complete waste of time. Go in peace and be done with this foolishness. Find more productive topics to discuss on the forum.

[AI2.0]

Shadow,
Thanks for the roasts. Maybe I’ll reply to them sometime.
Jesus kicked against the pricks - called religious leaders out on their evil ways, calling them hypocrites. Why? Not out of hatred except for their sins - but out of love - out of striving for the highest GOoD for them and others.

Thinker, I hope you don't feel ganged up on. I hope you understand that we're all just concerned for your spiritual well-being and that sometimes that means having to disagree and try to offer correction for a brother or sister who may need it--even if that brother or sister doesn't think they need it.

Tithing is such a basic, straightforward commandment, but yet a crucial one for the blessings it allows to come into our lives. I just hate to see you missing out on the many blessings which come from living this commandment.

But, as I've said before, it is your choice and I respect your right to choose, but since this is a discussion board, your choice will become subject of debate when it's brought up.

[Obrien]

Thinker - don't worry about the tirades of the zealots on this forum. For what it's worth, I love your indefatigable warnings about the appropriate use of tithes.

[Mark]

Thinker - don't worry about the tirades of the zealots on this forum. For what it's worth, I love your indefatigable warnings about the appropriate use of tithes.

I guess quoting revelations given by the Lord thru the Prophet Joseph Smith in latter day scripture we call the Doctrine & Covenants is now considered "tirades of the zealots" to those sophisticated thinkers who think they have it all figured out. Okay then..

[Thinker]

AI2,
Thanks, I know you guys mean well.
I remember lecturing my sister about how much I missed her at my temple wedding and how she should get temple worthy again (which includes paying 10% income to the church). Then, several years later, she got me back. Lol. I had told her about my faith crisis - in realizing the church and Christianity was not what I’d thought. She asked, “Are you serious?! You don’t believe in Jesus Christ as your savior - the one who died for you???!!! You can’t!!!”

I thought that was the end of that but a few days later, there was a knock at the door early in the morning. I opened it to find someone holding a bouquet of flowers in front of their face. It was my sister - who flew all of the way to see me. “This is an emergency!” she said, as she opened up a big suitcase full of Catholic (her new religion with her husband) scriptures, books etc.

When we had an argument recently she told me basically no matter what good I do if I don’t believe in Jesus as savior (human sacrifice scapegoat) I’m on the road to hell. And how I should be ashamed of myself. Ouch. Well, considering she had to sit outside temples when every one of her many siblings got married in temples, it’s not so bad.

=

Obrien,
Thanks for your kindness and encouragement.
I figure since many hands make light work, I’ll beat the drum for the many in need. I know there’s more I could be doing to help. We help some but I hope to be able to do more after our kids are raised. Before I visited extreme poverty in less developed countries, I was kind of clueless as to what it entailed. It broke my heart - and I know I didn’t even see the worst of it! The 1st time, I’d traveled with just a carry-on, but gave almost everything- even my bath stuff.

The other day, my oldest (who tends to keep to himself) was telling me how after visiting other countries, it opened his eyes to how many good people there are who are not lds, and they’re often happier! He said he’s been praying and senses that God will guide him how best to help.

[Mark]

Shadow,
Thanks for the roasts. Maybe I’ll reply to them sometime.
Jesus kicked against the pricks - called religious leaders out on their evil ways, calling them hypocrites. Why? Not out of hatred except for their sins - but out of love - out of striving for the highest GOoD for them and others.

Thinker, I hope you don't feel ganged up on. I hope you understand that we're all just concerned for your spiritual well-being and that sometimes that means having to disagree and try to offer correction for a brother or sister who may need it--even if that brother or sister doesn't think they need it.

Tithing is such a basic, straightforward commandment, but yet a crucial one for the blessings it allows to come into our lives. I just hate to see you missing out on the many blessings which come from living this commandment.

But, as I've said before, it is your choice and I respect your right to choose, but since this is a discussion board, your choice will become subject of debate when it's brought up.

Based on the words of another poster on this thread going by the name of NIGHTLIGHT I think Thinkers problems with LDS doctrineS and teachings go much deeper than just paying an honest tithing. Apparently even foundational beliefs in the basic role of Jesus the Christ as our Savior and Redeemer are brought into question with her. It's tough when there is no foundation to build upon.

[Thinker]

Mark,
Christ is about likening things to us - and not requiring to be commanded in all things.
Jesus never set a specific amount to give for tithes or to the poor, because he trusted us to study it out, think and pray to know based on each of our unique circumstances.

Christ is not Jesus’s last name but what he became and encouraged us to become.
“Without a parable spake he not unto them.”
Once you realize symbolic truths, an inspiring new world opens to you!
Those truths are needed now more than ever, to navigate through this crazy world.

[shadow]

Shadow,
Thanks for the roasts. Maybe I’ll reply to them sometime.
Jesus kicked against the pricks - called religious leaders out on their evil ways, calling them hypocrites. Why? Not out of hatred except for their sins - but out of love - out of striving for the highest GOoD for them and others.

I didn't mean for it to be a roast. I guess after reading it again it looks pretty straightforward. However, you frankly speak too so it's probably not a big deal. You claim church leaders are evil so I guess that's bold. You see things your way and you think it's the right way. I see things my way too and believe it's correct. Now knowing that you don't even believe Joseph Smith I can see how you have no foundation in Mormonism so revelations received by Joseph Smith regarding tithing have no sway on your own philosophy.
I wonder if you can see how shallow your arguments and criticisms are.
For example-
You've claimed multiple times that the church requires payment to get into the temple. It's true that the church requires one to be a full tithe payer, however it's the payer who deems if he's a full tithe payer or not.
My questions are-
Can God require standards to enter the Temple? I think the answer is yes.
Can God require one to keep the commandments to enter the Temple. Again, I think we agree the answer is yes.
Is tithing a commandment? I believe you would agree that it is.
So can God require one to be a tithe payer to enter the Temple? I think your'e being dishonest if you say no. Yet you bash the church saying it requires a payment to enter the Temple. You word it negatively when it's simply a requirement to keep the commandments. I believe you'll find your favorite OT stories have similar lessons- one must keep the commandments.

[shadow]

Thinker - don't worry about the tirades of the zealots on this forum. For what it's worth, I love your indefatigable warnings about the appropriate use of tithes.

Christ was a zealot too.
13 O remember, remember, my son Helaman, how strict are the commandments of God. And he said: If ye will keep my commandments ye shall prosper in the land—but if ye keep not his commandments ye shall be cut off from his presence.

[Thinker]

Shadow,
You are incorrect of your assessment of me.
I never claimed church leaders to be evil - in fact I’ve repeatedly explained that I appreciate the good they say and do, but that their human weakness is shown in how finances are handled and distorted ideas are taught (which promote depression etc).

A prophet is one who, with God’s help, sees a better way and leads people to it. I believe Joseph Smith was a prophet. A while ago, I was studying him in preparation for a lesson, and was filled with the spirit testifying of the good he learned and shared. Well, in the midst of this came a knock at our door and it was the Jehovah Witnesses. I was so excited to share what I’d just experienced that I invited them in and explained it all. When they could finally get a word in, they made an excuse and left.

I’ve read up on lots of true but ugly facts about JS, BY and other church history, but most of that doesn’t bother me. It’s not all-or-nothing. Polarized (bipolar) thinking is often taught, though. “The church is either all true or all false.” No, some aspects of it are good and some aren’t. Some aspects of JS were good and some weren’t.

In the beginning during JS’s time, celestial weddings were open to non-members. And back then, tithing was not a requirement for entering the temple. Charging money to enter the temple and restricting non-member family from celestial wedding came along later.