Discerning self centered spirituality

[DesertWonderer2]

Self-centered anything is the opposite of spirituality. When the focus is on ME having this experience, ME becoming that, ME attaining some level then you can know for sure they have missed the mark.

[BackBlast]

Stahura,

https://www.lds.org/new-era/1978/06/q-a ... e?lang=eng\

Looks pretty much like exactly what I said. The HG puts his seal, on all righteous ordinances, and not on unrighteous ones. No mention of if or how he might inform the recipient of that seal.. And I see no reason for it to take more than a nano second.

Regards,

George Clay

A question for you. What exactly does it mean to you to have an "unrighteous ordinance"?

[gclayjr]

Backblast,

A question for you. What exactly does it mean to you to have an "unrighteous ordinance"?

To lie or deceive the leaders of the priesthood [Bishop for instance in you interview] and present yourself as something you are not.

The easiest example is did you honestly answer the questions posed to you on your interview.

I will honestly say that the question I always have the most trouble with on a temple recommend with is "Do you feel worthy to go to the temple?"

The Bishop always tells me that if I can answer honestly the other questions, that simply some anxiety about my worthiness is not what is meant here. However, we can look at the world and see many sins which may not have been spelled out in the interview, that one might honestly know means you are not truly trying to follow Christ and you are not worthy to accept whatever ordinance.

Regards,

George Clay

[shadow]

I think it's wonderful that Stahura has had some spiritual experiences. His fallacy is that he seems to think he's unique or in a special club because of it. The reality is that he's no different than a good portion of others who keep plugging along while keeping their experiences to themselves. Like a kid who just learned to tie a shoelace- he shows others and tries to teach them the same skill and he makes it a point to let others know that he can tie a shoe. Yippee! In his exuberance of his new found knowledge he doesn't realize that everyone else already knows how to tie a shoe.
Spiritual experiences aught to be kept sacred and should be a motivator to help others, not condemn them.

#baptismoffirebaby!

No, I've stated probably 3 or 4 times in the past few days that I believe MANY(was that emphasized enough?) others have the same experience that I've had, they just don't know what it was, and that's usually the reason they don't talk about it. They assume it was just a cool answer, when it was far more than that. In that aspect, I break from the people you guys always compare me to, who love to say that so FEW every experience it.

If you are someone that's never had such an experience and it irritates you so much that I urge you to seek it, that's your choice. You have the agency and freedom to choose that. You can choose to believe something else and I don't fault you for it.

Some spiritual experiences should be kept, some should be shared. I haven't condemned a soul.

That hashtag is actually pretty offensive to me. I don't get offended easily, but you're making light of something that changed my life. It's like me making fun of your belief and writing #followtheprophetguys! #lol

I don't care if you disagree with me, I don't care what you think of me.
Regardless of how many times you all compare me to Snuffer, compare me to Amonhi or anything else, I'm not doing to stop sharing something that I feel I'm supposed to share. I'm not sharing this for Shadow, and Gclay, and Mark, and A12, and anyone else that have opposed me every step of the way since I've started posting 4 years ago. I love you all and accept that you disagree with me. There are thousands that read without posting, and I know that some will experiment on my word, and Finrocks words and they will end up closer to their Savior. That's it.

About that humorous analogy. There are those in my life that assured me that "They already knew how to tie a shoe" and then eventually they had an experience and realized they actually "didn't know how to tie a shoe before", and they thanked me and others for urging them to seek Christ.

Try to find the last time I've come to the forum to talk about Shadow's fallacy, or Gclay's fallacy, or Mark's fallacy. I'm not talking about you guys. I'm not telling you what you're doing wrong. You guys all pointed that out a LONG TIME AGO and I stopped, because I realized it was wrong. I ask you to do the same. I'm not saying thing about your lives. I'm testifying of something I feel need to testify of. That's it.

Feel free to block my posts if that helps you.

You claim that "many" have experienced it- so far so good, right? then you claim that they just didn't know what they experienced. Eye roll.
Then referencing my analogy you claim that those who think they know how to tie a shoe really don't know how to tie a shoe, but thankfully you were there to teach them. Another eye roll. You still think you're exclusive.

I realize you're special, all millennial's are, but you're not that special. Your experience certainly isn't unique. I bet it's happened to most of us in one way or another, including yours truly, the Prophet follower, and we know it too. And we manage life not much differently than you. I used the shoelace example because it happened to me last week. My little nephew learned to tie his shoe so he had me untie mine so he could teach me how to tie it. I played along and gave him encouragement and told him how happy I was that he could teach me. As an Eagle scout, the worst merit badge for me was pioneering- all those dam knots. I still remember most of them. No, I didn't tell my little nephew that tying a shoe is just the beginning, that there are harder and more complicated knots he can learn. I just played along with him, he'll learn more when he's ready.

Mark wears Velcro shoes. Be gentle with him.

[BackBlast]

Backblast,

A question for you. What exactly does it mean to you to have an "unrighteous ordinance"?

To lie or deceive the leaders of the priesthood [Bishop for instance in you interview] and present yourself as something you are not.

The easiest example is did you honestly answer the questions posed to you on your interview.

I will honestly say that the question I always have the most trouble with on a temple recommend with is "Do you feel worthy to go to the temple?"

The Bishop always tells me that if I can answer honestly the other questions, that simply some anxiety about my worthiness is not what is meant here. However, we can look at the world and see many sins which may not have been spelled out in the interview, that one might honestly know means you are not truly trying to follow Christ and you are not worthy to accept whatever ordinance.

Regards,

George Clay

Thanks for your clarification. I would like to point a few things out. In the case of baptism, the ordinance represents a contract. One between a mortal and God. Part of that contract is the condition of the heart, and while other mortals can attempt to ascertain the state of that heart it is not an absolute or complete thing. The bishop can do everything right. The person can answer all the questions correctly. But there still remains a reservation in the heart the individual isn't completely willing to give up that prevents the contract from being co-signed by heaven. It isn't "unrighteous" in this instance, but it is incomplete. Such incompleteness will prevent the Holy Spirit of Promise from sealing an ordinance even if all is well in the eyes of all the mortals involved to the best of their understandings.

I like the metaphor of a door. The men with keys preside over those doors, and through the ordinances they are then opened. But it is up to us, to walk through them. Sometimes we aren't quite ready when the door is opened to us, and we (hopefully) figure it out later.

[Zathura]

I think it's wonderful that Stahura has had some spiritual experiences. His fallacy is that he seems to think he's unique or in a special club because of it. The reality is that he's no different than a good portion of others who keep plugging along while keeping their experiences to themselves. Like a kid who just learned to tie a shoelace- he shows others and tries to teach them the same skill and he makes it a point to let others know that he can tie a shoe. Yippee! In his exuberance of his new found knowledge he doesn't realize that everyone else already knows how to tie a shoe.
Spiritual experiences aught to be kept sacred and should be a motivator to help others, not condemn them.

#baptismoffirebaby!

No, I've stated probably 3 or 4 times in the past few days that I believe MANY(was that emphasized enough?) others have the same experience that I've had, they just don't know what it was, and that's usually the reason they don't talk about it. They assume it was just a cool answer, when it was far more than that. In that aspect, I break from the people you guys always compare me to, who love to say that so FEW every experience it.

If you are someone that's never had such an experience and it irritates you so much that I urge you to seek it, that's your choice. You have the agency and freedom to choose that. You can choose to believe something else and I don't fault you for it.

Some spiritual experiences should be kept, some should be shared. I haven't condemned a soul.

That hashtag is actually pretty offensive to me. I don't get offended easily, but you're making light of something that changed my life. It's like me making fun of your belief and writing #followtheprophetguys! #lol

I don't care if you disagree with me, I don't care what you think of me.
Regardless of how many times you all compare me to Snuffer, compare me to Amonhi or anything else, I'm not doing to stop sharing something that I feel I'm supposed to share. I'm not sharing this for Shadow, and Gclay, and Mark, and A12, and anyone else that have opposed me every step of the way since I've started posting 4 years ago. I love you all and accept that you disagree with me. There are thousands that read without posting, and I know that some will experiment on my word, and Finrocks words and they will end up closer to their Savior. That's it.

About that humorous analogy. There are those in my life that assured me that "They already knew how to tie a shoe" and then eventually they had an experience and realized they actually "didn't know how to tie a shoe before", and they thanked me and others for urging them to seek Christ.

Try to find the last time I've come to the forum to talk about Shadow's fallacy, or Gclay's fallacy, or Mark's fallacy. I'm not talking about you guys. I'm not telling you what you're doing wrong. You guys all pointed that out a LONG TIME AGO and I stopped, because I realized it was wrong. I ask you to do the same. I'm not saying thing about your lives. I'm testifying of something I feel need to testify of. That's it.

Feel free to block my posts if that helps you.

You claim that "many" have experienced it- so far so good, right? then you claim that they just didn't know what they experienced. Eye roll.
Then referencing my analogy you claim that those who think they know how to tie a shoe really don't know how to tie a shoe, but thankfully you were there to teach them. Another eye roll. You still think you're exclusive.

I realize you're special, all millennial's are, but you're not that special. Your experience certainly isn't unique. I bet it's happened to most of us in one way or another, including yours truly, the Prophet follower, and we know it too. And we manage life not much differently than you. I used the shoelace example because it happened to me last week. My little nephew learned to tie his shoe so he had me untie mine so he could teach me how to tie it. I played along and gave him encouragement and told him how happy I was that he could teach me. As an Eagle scout, the worst merit badge for me was pioneering- all those dam knots. I still remember most of them. No, I didn't tell my little nephew that tying a shoe is just the beginning, that there are harder and more complicated knots he can learn. I just played along with him, he'll learn more when he's ready.

Mark wears Velcro shoes. Be gentle with him.

good chat

[diligently seeking]

Backblast,

A question for you. What exactly does it mean to you to have an "unrighteous ordinance"?

To lie or deceive the leaders of the priesthood [Bishop for instance in you interview] and present yourself as something you are not.

The easiest example is did you honestly answer the questions posed to you on your interview.

I will honestly say that the question I always have the most trouble with on a temple recommend with is "Do you feel worthy to go to the temple?"

The Bishop always tells me that if I can answer honestly the other questions, that simply some anxiety about my worthiness is not what is meant here. However, we can look at the world and see many sins which may not have been spelled out in the interview, that one might honestly know means you are not truly trying to follow Christ and you are not worthy to accept whatever ordinance.

Regards,

George Clay

Thanks for your clarification. I would like to point a few things out. In the case of baptism, the ordinance represents a contract. One between a mortal and God. Part of that contract is the condition of the heart, and while other mortals can attempt to ascertain the state of that heart it is not an absolute or complete thing. The bishop can do everything right. The person can answer all the questions correctly. But there still remains a reservation in the heart the individual isn't completely willing to give up that prevents the contract from being co-signed by heaven. It isn't "unrighteous" in this instance, but it is incomplete. Such incompleteness will prevent the Holy Spirit of Promise from sealing an ordinance even if all is well in the eyes of all the mortals involved to the best of their understandings.

I like the metaphor of a door. The men with keys preside over those doors, and through the ordinances they are then opened. But it is up to us, to walk through them. Sometimes we aren't quite ready when the door is opened to us, and we (hopefully) figure it out later.

2nephi 9
41 O then, my beloved brethren, come unto the Lord, the Holy One. Remember that his paths are righteous. Behold, the way for man is narrow, but it lieth in a straight course before him, and the keeper of the gate is the Holy One of Israel; and he employeth no servant there; and there is none other way save it be by the gate; for he cannot be deceived, for the Lord God is his name

[diligently seeking]

Backblast,

A question for you. What exactly does it mean to you to have an "unrighteous ordinance"?

To lie or deceive the leaders of the priesthood [Bishop for instance in you interview] and present yourself as something you are not.

The easiest example is did you honestly answer the questions posed to you on your interview.

I will honestly say that the question I always have the most trouble with on a temple recommend with is "Do you feel worthy to go to the temple?"

The Bishop always tells me that if I can answer honestly the other questions, that simply some anxiety about my worthiness is not what is meant here. However, we can look at the world and see many sins which may not have been spelled out in the interview, that one might honestly know means you are not truly trying to follow Christ and you are not worthy to accept whatever ordinance.

Regards,

George Clay

Thanks for your clarification. I would like to point a few things out. In the case of baptism, the ordinance represents a contract. One between a mortal and God. Part of that contract is the condition of the heart, and while other mortals can attempt to ascertain the state of that heart it is not an absolute or complete thing. The bishop can do everything right. The person can answer all the questions correctly. But there still remains a reservation in the heart the individual isn't completely willing to give up that prevents the contract from being co-signed by heaven. It isn't "unrighteous" in this instance, but it is incomplete. Such incompleteness will prevent the Holy Spirit of Promise from sealing an ordinance even if all is well in the eyes of all the mortals involved to the best of their understandings.

I like the metaphor of a door. The men with keys preside over those doors, and through the ordinances they are then opened. But it is up to us, to walk through them. Sometimes we aren't quite ready when the door is opened to us, and we (hopefully) figure it out later.

2nephi 31


Wherefore, do the things which I have told you I have seen that your Lord and your Redeemer should do; for, for this cause have they been shown unto me, that ye might know the gate by which ye should enter. For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost.
18 And then are ye in this strait and narrow path which leads to eternal life; yea, ye have entered in by the gate; ye have done according to the commandments of the Father and the Son; and ye have received the Holy Ghost, which witnesses of the Father and the Son, unto the fulfilling of the promise which he hath made, that if ye entered in by the way ye should receive.
19 And now, my beloved brethren, after ye have gotten into this strait and narrow path, I would ask if all is done? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for ye have not come thus far save it were by the word of Christ with unshaken faith in him, relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save.
20 Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life.
21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

[Zathura]

Backblast,

A question for you. What exactly does it mean to you to have an "unrighteous ordinance"?

To lie or deceive the leaders of the priesthood [Bishop for instance in you interview] and present yourself as something you are not.

The easiest example is did you honestly answer the questions posed to you on your interview.

I will honestly say that the question I always have the most trouble with on a temple recommend with is "Do you feel worthy to go to the temple?"

The Bishop always tells me that if I can answer honestly the other questions, that simply some anxiety about my worthiness is not what is meant here. However, we can look at the world and see many sins which may not have been spelled out in the interview, that one might honestly know means you are not truly trying to follow Christ and you are not worthy to accept whatever ordinance.

Regards,

George Clay

Thanks for your clarification. I would like to point a few things out. In the case of baptism, the ordinance represents a contract. One between a mortal and God. Part of that contract is the condition of the heart, and while other mortals can attempt to ascertain the state of that heart it is not an absolute or complete thing. The bishop can do everything right. The person can answer all the questions correctly. But there still remains a reservation in the heart the individual isn't completely willing to give up that prevents the contract from being co-signed by heaven. It isn't "unrighteous" in this instance, but it is incomplete. Such incompleteness will prevent the Holy Spirit of Promise from sealing an ordinance even if all is well in the eyes of all the mortals involved to the best of their understandings.

I like the metaphor of a door. The men with keys preside over those doors, and through the ordinances they are then opened. But it is up to us, to walk through them. Sometimes we aren't quite ready when the door is opened to us, and we (hopefully) figure it out later.

Clay, this is all I’m saying

https://scottwoodward.org/holyghost_hol ... omise.html

[Zathura]

This is exactly what we were taught and encouraged to do in GC. Serve out of love as guided by revelation. You are considering revelatory experiences as the dynamite experience that creates a big bang. I think what is being taught is that the spirit of Revelation, which is the testimony of Christ which is to love him, by serving him, not by wanting him to serve you through having your big experience. The little things are the big things.

Rand, unless we have actual experiences with the divine, where we are tutored and taught by God Himself
-Finrock

Finrock, is the Holy Ghost God? Can you experience an event with any other member of the Godhead without the Holy Ghost present? You are stuck on the sensational. A visit from the Savior is an amazing experience, but, you need to put your boots back on and go to work afterward again, and trust the Holy Ghost, who is a member of the Godhead, and a God by the way, to lead you and to guide you with the still small voice, just like Elijah.

Rand, I don’t want to stir up the contention that was forming on this thread, but I found two quotes from Elder Mcconkie that go along with what I’m saying about the “sensational”.

A New Witness for the Articles of Faith, p.367-377

“If spiritual gifts are interwoven with and form part of the very gospel of salvation itself can we enjoy the fulness of that gospel without possessing the gifts that are part of it? If gifts and miracles shall-inevitably, always, and everlastingly-follow those who believe, how can we be true believers without them? And if we are to seek the gospel, if we are to hunger and thirst after righteousness, if our whole souls must cry out for the goodness of God and his everlasting association how can we exempt ourselves from seeking the gifts of the Spirit that come from and prepare us for his presence? “

And again, verily I say unto you, I would that ye should always remember, and always retain in your minds what those gifts are, that are given unto the church." (D&C 46:7-10.) Truly all of the Lord's saints should seek him, should seek his Spirit, should seek his gifts. Where these gifts are, there is the true and saving gospel, and where they are not, there is no hope of salvation.

I’ve never been very efficient at getting my point across, but I’m truly just making the same point that Elder Mconkie is. I’ve never advocated the seeking of the “sensational” just because.

My words are his words ^^ take from him what you will.
I only want people to seek this “sensational event” , and be born of God because I think the primary reason people leave the church is because they are never born of God to begin with. If they had actually received the Holy Ghost and been sanctified, born of God, then the CES letter/Snuffer/Mean judgmental bishop/rude members/Polygamy/black priesthood/whatever/ would never have swayed the person, because they know what their anchor is, and that is Jesus Christ. They are converted, they are spiritual creatures. Such silly tenets and relatively unimportant questions wouldn’t affect them. Without this conversion, they will never actually KNOW that Jesus is their savior. They are susceptible to strange , abstract ideas of God. I have many close friends who have drifted from the church towards Hinduism/Buddhism because their idea of God is twisted. They were never wrought upon by God’s power , the knowledge of their Savior and his goodness, his power, his mercy has not been brought into their hearts. That is KEY, that’s all I want for anyone. I don’t write a book, make a blog , podcast, anything because I don’t want to be “lifted up”. I gain nothing from this. All i want in life is to find people every once in awhile who will listen, plant that seed, and be born of God. I’m sure all of them will be much better servants that me anyway. I’m quick to get irritated, slow to remember my God at times. It is difficult to be patient, I am abrasive. The people I want to bring this truth to don’t have those issues, how much more profitable servants would they be??

I simply know that without that “sensational” event of Baptism of Fire and Holy Ghost that I would have a weak foundation. I know that because I remember life before that event, and my foundation was weak. It crumbled often. I had no real reason to withstand temptation, and certain temptations I could never overcome. With my newfound life, religion, identity, I realize what I live for. I realize what the whole point of the Gospel is, what we strive for. I realize what changes everything, I realize what made prophets and apostles become the men they became, and as a result, they were able to serve and help many.

I also know that as I continue to strive to come unto God, the things I learn have helped me realize the importance of the Holy Ghost. I’m not swayed by random doctrines and teachings. I certainly understand that people can look beyond the mark. If people but focus on actually receiving the Holy Ghost in the first place, the Spirit will inevitably lead them towards any other “sensational” blessings exist with or without them seeking those blessings.

Anyways, I don’t want to cause contention. I invite you to PM me rather than post in the thread if you think the conversation could lead in that direction

[Zathura]

This is exactly what we were taught and encouraged to do in GC. Serve out of love as guided by revelation. You are considering revelatory experiences as the dynamite experience that creates a big bang. I think what is being taught is that the spirit of Revelation, which is the testimony of Christ which is to love him, by serving him, not by wanting him to serve you through having your big experience. The little things are the big things.

Rand, unless we have actual experiences with the divine, where we are tutored and taught by God Himself
-Finrock

Finrock, is the Holy Ghost God? Can you experience an event with any other member of the Godhead without the Holy Ghost present? You are stuck on the sensational. A visit from the Savior is an amazing experience, but, you need to put your boots back on and go to work afterward again, and trust the Holy Ghost, who is a member of the Godhead, and a God by the way, to lead you and to guide you with the still small voice, just like Elijah.

Rand, I don’t want to stir up the contention that was forming on this thread, but I found two quotes from Elder Mcconkie that go along with what I’m saying about the “sensational”.

A New Witness for the Articles of Faith, p.367-377

“If spiritual gifts are interwoven with and form part of the very gospel of salvation itself can we enjoy the fulness of that gospel without possessing the gifts that are part of it? If gifts and miracles shall-inevitably, always, and everlastingly-follow those who believe, how can we be true believers without them? And if we are to seek the gospel, if we are to hunger and thirst after righteousness, if our whole souls must cry out for the goodness of God and his everlasting association how can we exempt ourselves from seeking the gifts of the Spirit that come from and prepare us for his presence? “

And again, verily I say unto you, I would that ye should always remember, and always retain in your minds what those gifts are, that are given unto the church." (D&C 46:7-10.) Truly all of the Lord's saints should seek him, should seek his Spirit, should seek his gifts. Where these gifts are, there is the true and saving gospel, and where they are not, there is no hope of salvation.

I’ve never been very efficient at getting my point across, but I’m truly just making the same point that Elder Mconkie is. I’ve never advocated the seeking of the “sensational” just because.

My words are his words ^^ take from him what you will.
I only want people to seek this “sensational event” , and be born of God because I think the primary reason people leave the church is because they are never born of God to begin with. If they had actually received the Holy Ghost and been sanctified, born of God, then the CES letter/Snuffer/Mean judgmental bishop/rude members/Polygamy/black priesthood/whatever/ would never have swayed the person, because they know what their anchor is, and that is Jesus Christ. They are converted, they are spiritual creatures. Such silly tenets and relatively unimportant questions wouldn’t affect them. Without this conversion, they will never actually KNOW that Jesus is their savior. They are susceptible to strange , abstract ideas of God. I have many close friends who have drifted from the church towards Hinduism/Buddhism because their idea of God is twisted. They were never wrought upon by God’s power , the knowledge of their Savior and his goodness, his power, his mercy has not been brought into their hearts. That is KEY, that’s all I want for anyone. I don’t write a book, make a blog , podcast, anything because I don’t want to be “lifted up”. I gain nothing from this. All i want in life is to find people every once in awhile who will listen, plant that seed, and be born of God. I’m sure all of them will be much better servants that me anyway. I’m quick to get irritated, slow to remember my God at times. It is difficult to be patient, I am abrasive. The people I want to bring this truth to don’t have those issues, how much more profitable servants would they be??

I simply know that without that “sensational” event of Baptism of Fire and Holy Ghost that I would have a weak foundation. I know that because I remember life before that event, and my foundation was weak. It crumbled often. I had no real reason to withstand temptation, and certain temptations I could never overcome. With my newfound life, religion, identity, I realize what I live for. I realize what the whole point of the Gospel is, what we strive for. I realize what changes everything, I realize what made prophets and apostles become the men they became, and as a result, they were able to serve and help many.

I also know that as I continue to strive to come unto God, the things I learn have helped me realize the importance of the Holy Ghost. I’m not swayed by random doctrines and teachings. I certainly understand that people can look beyond the mark. If people but focus on actually receiving the Holy Ghost in the first place, the Spirit will inevitably lead them towards any other “sensational” blessings exist with or without them seeking those blessings.

Anyways, I don’t want to cause contention. I invite you to PM me rather than post in the thread if you think the conversation could lead in that direction

Elder George Q. Cannon explained, “... we find, even among those who have embraced the Gospel, hearts of unbelief. How many of you, my brethren and sisters, are seeking for these gifts that God has promised to bestow?...How many of you ask the Father, in the name of Jesus, to manifest Himself to you through these powers and these gifts? Or do you go along day by day like a door turning on its hinges, without having any feeling upon the subject, without exercising any faith whatever; content to be baptized and be members of the Church, and to rest there, thinking that your salvation is secure because you have done this? I say to you, in the name of the Lord, as one of His servants, that you have need to repent of this. You have need to repent of your hardness of heart, of your indifference, and of your carelessness. There is not that diligence, there is not that faith, there is not that seeking for the power of God that there should be among a people who have received the precious promises we have....I say to you that it is our duty to avail ourselves of the privileges which God has placed within our reach. If we have done wrong, repent of our wrong and feel after God, and not be satisfied till we have found Him, and He hears and answers us, and He speaks by His divine power in our hearts, bearing testimony to us in such a manner as cannot be doubted that He hears us, that He is near to us, and that He is watching over us and ready to bestow upon us all the blessings that are necessary for our happiness here and hereafter....Let us seek for these gifts. Let us be exhorted this day in this Tabernacle, and bear in mind that these gifts are for us; and let us seek for them with all our might, mind and strength (Elder George Q. Cannon, Millennial Star, Apr. 1894, pp. 260–61.)

[Mark]

This thread reminds me of martial arts study that I did for about ten years.

After I had been in the style for about 5 years, I started to learn some pretty advanced things. I knew that one of the "founding principles of the style was to be very careful of the people into whose hands they would share the knowledge. I asked my instructor how they made sure not to teach the "wrong" people. He said, "We teach very slowly. We not only get to know the person, but because we give out information slowly, the glory hounds or those who want to use the knowledge for bad purposes get bored and leave before they learn anything significant." I think the gospel is a lot the same way, at least in some ways. Of course God knows our hearts perfectly. But also, I think there is a lot of pretty mundane, hard work - things with no glory and probably not all that fun or interesting. The wheat and the tares are largely self-sifted, those willing to do years of quiet service are taught greater things, and those who want the glory of the world go to the great and spacious building of their own accord.

That is a very astute observation brother. Self sifted is a good way to put it. The meek and humble will inherit the earth. The glory hogs and the self righteous will only inherit their own prideful conceit and the misery that goes along with it.

[Rand]

Rand, unless we have actual experiences with the divine, where we are tutored and taught by God Himself
-Finrock

Finrock, is the Holy Ghost God? Can you experience an event with any other member of the Godhead without the Holy Ghost present? You are stuck on the sensational. A visit from the Savior is an amazing experience, but, you need to put your boots back on and go to work afterward again, and trust the Holy Ghost, who is a member of the Godhead, and a God by the way, to lead you and to guide you with the still small voice, just like Elijah.

Rand, I don’t want to stir up the contention that was forming on this thread, but I found two quotes from Elder Mcconkie that go along with what I’m saying about the “sensational”.

A New Witness for the Articles of Faith, p.367-377

“If spiritual gifts are interwoven with and form part of the very gospel of salvation itself can we enjoy the fulness of that gospel without possessing the gifts that are part of it? If gifts and miracles shall-inevitably, always, and everlastingly-follow those who believe, how can we be true believers without them? And if we are to seek the gospel, if we are to hunger and thirst after righteousness, if our whole souls must cry out for the goodness of God and his everlasting association how can we exempt ourselves from seeking the gifts of the Spirit that come from and prepare us for his presence? “

And again, verily I say unto you, I would that ye should always remember, and always retain in your minds what those gifts are, that are given unto the church." (D&C 46:7-10.) Truly all of the Lord's saints should seek him, should seek his Spirit, should seek his gifts. Where these gifts are, there is the true and saving gospel, and where they are not, there is no hope of salvation.

I’ve never been very efficient at getting my point across, but I’m truly just making the same point that Elder Mconkie is. I’ve never advocated the seeking of the “sensational” just because.

My words are his words ^^ take from him what you will.
I only want people to seek this “sensational event” , and be born of God because I think the primary reason people leave the church is because they are never born of God to begin with. If they had actually received the Holy Ghost and been sanctified, born of God, then the CES letter/Snuffer/Mean judgmental bishop/rude members/Polygamy/black priesthood/whatever/ would never have swayed the person, because they know what their anchor is, and that is Jesus Christ. They are converted, they are spiritual creatures. Such silly tenets and relatively unimportant questions wouldn’t affect them. Without this conversion, they will never actually KNOW that Jesus is their savior. They are susceptible to strange , abstract ideas of God. I have many close friends who have drifted from the church towards Hinduism/Buddhism because their idea of God is twisted. They were never wrought upon by God’s power , the knowledge of their Savior and his goodness, his power, his mercy has not been brought into their hearts. That is KEY, that’s all I want for anyone. I don’t write a book, make a blog , podcast, anything because I don’t want to be “lifted up”. I gain nothing from this. All i want in life is to find people every once in awhile who will listen, plant that seed, and be born of God. I’m sure all of them will be much better servants that me anyway. I’m quick to get irritated, slow to remember my God at times. It is difficult to be patient, I am abrasive. The people I want to bring this truth to don’t have those issues, how much more profitable servants would they be??

I simply know that without that “sensational” event of Baptism of Fire and Holy Ghost that I would have a weak foundation. I know that because I remember life before that event, and my foundation was weak. It crumbled often. I had no real reason to withstand temptation, and certain temptations I could never overcome. With my newfound life, religion, identity, I realize what I live for. I realize what the whole point of the Gospel is, what we strive for. I realize what changes everything, I realize what made prophets and apostles become the men they became, and as a result, they were able to serve and help many.

I also know that as I continue to strive to come unto God, the things I learn have helped me realize the importance of the Holy Ghost. I’m not swayed by random doctrines and teachings. I certainly understand that people can look beyond the mark. If people but focus on actually receiving the Holy Ghost in the first place, the Spirit will inevitably lead them towards any other “sensational” blessings exist with or without them seeking those blessings.

Anyways, I don’t want to cause contention. I invite you to PM me rather than post in the thread if you think the conversation could lead in that direction

Elder George Q. Cannon explained, “... we find, even among those who have embraced the Gospel, hearts of unbelief. How many of you, my brethren and sisters, are seeking for these gifts that God has promised to bestow?...How many of you ask the Father, in the name of Jesus, to manifest Himself to you through these powers and these gifts? Or do you go along day by day like a door turning on its hinges, without having any feeling upon the subject, without exercising any faith whatever; content to be baptized and be members of the Church, and to rest there, thinking that your salvation is secure because you have done this? I say to you, in the name of the Lord, as one of His servants, that you have need to repent of this. You have need to repent of your hardness of heart, of your indifference, and of your carelessness. There is not that diligence, there is not that faith, there is not that seeking for the power of God that there should be among a people who have received the precious promises we have....I say to you that it is our duty to avail ourselves of the privileges which God has placed within our reach. If we have done wrong, repent of our wrong and feel after God, and not be satisfied till we have found Him, and He hears and answers us, and He speaks by His divine power in our hearts, bearing testimony to us in such a manner as cannot be doubted that He hears us, that He is near to us, and that He is watching over us and ready to bestow upon us all the blessings that are necessary for our happiness here and hereafter....Let us seek for these gifts. Let us be exhorted this day in this Tabernacle, and bear in mind that these gifts are for us; and let us seek for them with all our might, mind and strength (Elder George Q. Cannon, Millennial Star, Apr. 1894, pp. 260–61.)

Stahura, I appreciate your tone and caution. I hear you. I just disagree with your conclusion, at least in the majority of cases. I agree with Elder McConkie and GQC, but I think you are taking them a little out of context of the dominant message they proclaim. I think the baptism of fire is important! I think it is critical. But, if it becomes the focus of ones journey of conversion, they are most likely going to miss the boat.
We should see the gifts of the Spirit, we should seek to have angels minister to us, we should seek the extraordinary, just not at the expense of looking beyond the mark.
The Lord taught me this early, or at least tried to. When I first read the BofM as a youth, I spent a year praying for a splashy testimony that it was true! I sought an experience that would wow me, impress me, something that was big and powerful. When it finally came, it came as the words: "You know it is true, why are you asking?"
I was humbled indeed. I now had the answer that I wanted, but I was also chastened. It is all about the still small voice, and a willingness to submit my will to the will of the Father. If I do my best to do the basics, and follow the counsel of the Spirit, I will have all of these experiences that you talk of, and not lumping you together with, but that the snuffer followers say is critical, but, I will have them at the time God knows is best for me and my family.
I am sure there are exceptions, but in the majority, I think this is true. I do admire that your goal is to keep members on the good ship Zion. Encourage them to be in the Temple at least weekly and you will be serving them better. imo

[jadd]

I've had a few discussions with individuals that have similar experiences to yours Rand (including a dear family member), and I'm glad that you got an answer - however, and this is not meant to be critical and I hope it doesn't come off as such, but I always wonder about the tone of the voice in our heads when we hear the "You know it is true, why are you asking?" I wonder what would have happened if you had responded to that voice with a "because I wanted to know, nothing doubting." I only mention this because I have great faith in the words of James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. the Lord won't reprove you for asking a question if you lack wisdom. Even if you knew - you lacked wisdom because you were still asking - perhaps asking more questions would be in order. All great revelations have come from asking questions A few people I know have decided to no longer ask the Lord for guidance because they feel He always tells them "you already know - why are you asking?" I just wonder if the "you already know is His voice and the "why are you asking is from another voice - or we misinterpret it. Anyways, just a few thoughts.

Please believe I am not trying to attack you at all - these are sincere questions.

[Rand]

I've had a few discussions with individuals that have similar experiences to yours Rand (including a dear family member), and I'm glad that you got an answer - however, and this is not meant to be critical and I hope it doesn't come off as such, but I always wonder about the tone of the voice in our heads when we hear the "You know it is true, why are you asking?" I wonder what would have happened if you had responded to that voice with a "because I wanted to know, nothing doubting." I only mention this because I have great faith in the words of James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. the Lord won't reprove you for asking a question if you lack wisdom. Even if you knew - you lacked wisdom because you were still asking - perhaps asking more questions would be in order. All great revelations have come from asking questions A few people I know have decided to no longer ask the Lord for guidance because they feel He always tells them "you already know - why are you asking?" I just wonder if the "you already know is His voice and the "why are you asking is from another voice - or we misinterpret it. Anyways, just a few thoughts.

Please believe I am not trying to attack you at all - these are sincere questions.

I appreciate your thoughts. No attack perceived. My first inclination when I heard/felt that voice, was to be extraordinarily humbled. It was a sudden awareness that my request was a little faithless and if I could say it this way, impertinent.
If I could have crawled under the carpet and hid, it would have been more comforting. Not so much from shame, as from the intense glory of the personage who spoke. As Moses said, I felt an intense awareness of the nothingness of man. I was given a sense of my lack of respect and recognition of who I was and who I was asking grace of, and the vast difference in our states of being. It was a deeply humbling experience.
God gave me liberally indeed.

[Rand]

I've had a few discussions with individuals that have similar experiences to yours Rand (including a dear family member), and I'm glad that you got an answer - however, and this is not meant to be critical and I hope it doesn't come off as such, but I always wonder about the tone of the voice in our heads when we hear the "You know it is true, why are you asking?" I wonder what would have happened if you had responded to that voice with a "because I wanted to know, nothing doubting." I only mention this because I have great faith in the words of James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. the Lord won't reprove you for asking a question if you lack wisdom. Even if you knew - you lacked wisdom because you were still asking - perhaps asking more questions would be in order. All great revelations have come from asking questions A few people I know have decided to no longer ask the Lord for guidance because they feel He always tells them "you already know - why are you asking?" I just wonder if the "you already know is His voice and the "why are you asking is from another voice - or we misinterpret it. Anyways, just a few thoughts.

Please believe I am not trying to attack you at all - these are sincere questions.

I appreciate your thoughts. No attack perceived. My first inclination when I heard/felt that voice, was to be extraordinarily humbled. It was a sudden awareness that my request was a little faithless and if I could say it this way, impertinent.
If I could have crawled under the carpet and hid, it would have been more comforting. Not so much from shame, as from the intense glory of the personage who spoke. As Moses said, I felt an intense awareness of the nothingness of man. I was given a sense of my lack of respect and recognition of who I was and who I was asking grace of, and the vast difference in our states of being. It was a deeply humbling experience.
God gave me liberally indeed.

[Jesef]

The snarky or stringent voice in your head isn't God, it's probably your own voice. God doesn't belittle us. They are not angry and lacking in compassion. They aren't critical and austere. Those are our own misperceptions. The voice in your head is most often your own spirit. You can prove this through enough experimentation - you'll discover it is not all-knowing or infallible.