Discerning self centered spirituality

[diligently seeking]

1 And now there was no more contention in all the land of Zarahemla, among all the people who belonged to king Benjamin, so that king Benjamin had continual peace all the remainder of his days.
2 And it came to pass that he had three sons; and he called their names Mosiah, and Helorum, and Helaman. And he caused that they should be taught in all the language of his fathers, that thereby they might become men of understanding; and that they might know concerning the prophecies which had been spoken by the mouths of their fathers, which were delivered them by the hand of the Lord.
3 And he also taught them concerning the records which were engraven on the plates of brass, saying: My sons, I would that ye should remember that were it not for these plates, which contain these records and these commandments, we must have suffered in ignorance, even at this present time, not knowing the mysteries of God.
4 For it were not possible that our father, Lehi, could have remembered all these things, to have taught them to his children, except it were for the help of these plates; for he having been taught in the language of the Egyptians therefore he could read these engravings, and teach them to his children, that thereby they could teach them to their children, and so fulfilling the commandments of God, even down to this present time.
5 I say unto you, my sons, were it not for these things, which have been kept and preserved by the hand of God, that we might read and understand of his mysteries, and have his commandments always before our eyes, that even our fathers would have dwindled in unbelief, and we should have been like unto our brethren, the Lamanites, who know nothing concerning these things, or even do not believe them when they are taught them, because of the traditions of their fathers, which are not correct. ( Mosiah 1)

[Mark]

"At no point have Finrock and I, or anyone else talked of seeing Jesus Christ. We have been talking about the Holy Ghost , and the manifestations that occur by the power of the Holy Ghost."

Actually you are wrong here Stahura. Finrock has said multiple times here that He has been baptized by fire AND has had his calling and election been made sure. Do you understand what that means? He has made it clear that he laments that rank and file church members have not had his experiences with Diety and he was once sitting at their (lowly) station in life before these things happened to him. He like the Amonhi people use this as a club to beat over the head of rank and file Latter Day Saints.

[gclayjr]

Mark,

Actually you are wrong here Stahura. Finrock has said multiple times here that He has been baptized by fire AND has had his calling and election been made sure. Do you understand what that means? He has made it clear that he laments that rank and file church members have not had his experiences with Diety and he was once sitting at their (lowly) station in life before these things happened to him. He like the Amonhi people use this as a club to beat over the head of rank and file Latter Day Saints.

You are right. Except Finrock tries to have it both ways. He slurps up Amonhi's and other heresies, then claims, in reality, he is a TBM who never disses the church or prophets.

Regards,

George Clay

[natasha]

I can't remember which general authority said this: "When the Brethren speak, they will speak in plainness to not be misunderstood, and in plainness to be understood." Also, "faith never demands and answer to every question....". The reward for having faith and moving forward, is an increase in faith. Those things that I know for sure can never be taken from me. Those things that we have learned step by step become a part of us. I think we often are blind to the many "tender mercies" that occur in our day to day living.

[Zathura]

"At no point have Finrock and I, or anyone else talked of seeing Jesus Christ. We have been talking about the Holy Ghost , and the manifestations that occur by the power of the Holy Ghost."

Actually you are wrong here Stahura. Finrock has said multiple times here that He has been baptized by fire AND has had his calling and election been made sure. Do you understand what that means? He has made it clear that he laments that rank and file church members have not had his experiences with Diety and he was once sitting at their (lowly) station in life before these things happened to him. He like the Amonhi people use this as a club to beat over the head of rank and file Latter Day Saints.

The baptism of fire is the reception of the Holy Ghost/Power of the Holy Ghost descending upon someone. It's a manifestation of the Holy Ghost.

Calling and election honestly means something different to so many different people. If i remember correctly, Finrock's story was something along the lines of "I heard the voice of the Lord confirm that my Calling and Election has been made sure". And not seeing or touching Jesus Christ in person like Snuffer and others(Amonhi? I don't remember). Both of those things are manifestation of the Holy Ghost and the power of the Holy Ghost, or something done through the Spirit of the Lord.
In summary, both of the things you mentioned are the Holy Ghost,
Here's the thing Mark, Rewcox and others often told me that I used my experience like a "club" and lifted myself above others. Rewcox changed his mind about that, others didn't(I'm sure I was blocked). That's fine. I can tell you I don't use it to lift myself up.

I grew up in the church. I was active in the church my entire life, except for one year in my teenage years. I would bare testimony that I knew Jesus was my savior. I bore testimony that I know the church is true, that we have a true prophet etc. I talked about the Spirit, about feeling the Spirit. About my baptism when I was 8. I was sure I received something special, even though I didn't feel anything special.

When I first had an experience with God. It was unlike anything I imagined. I didn't think such an experience possible. I ABSOLUTELY knew that Jesus Christ is my savior after that. But that came with a realization that my previous perspective was WAY OFF. I did NOT know before that Jesus was my savior. I don't know about Finrock, but I happen to believe many people have that experience and are baptized by fire and Holy Ghost, they just don't realize the experience for what it really is. My intent is to help those people understand what they experienced , because then they understand correct doctrine.They will find they understand a huge portion of the New Testament, where before they essentially ignored it. They see more in the Endowment sessions, they see more in every story they read int he Book of Mormon. They also then have a knowledge of how they got to that "spiritual high" in the first place, and now how to come unto God again and again and again for the rest of their lives For those who haven't had it, I know they need to have it because of my own personal experience and the miraculous change it caused in my life and in my heart, and because of what the scriptures teach.

You used the word "Lament". I think it's a great word to use. I do lament for others if they have not had this experience, because it changed my life and the life of my family and friends who have received it. Their natures were changed. They suddenly found themselves able to apologize when they had previously unable to do, take responsibility, serve others. They were no longer carnal, angry. Their demeanor changed. Their attitude about Jesus Christ was different, they realized how low and small they are. Everything they did in church is now done with real intent. They point out gems in Conference they never saw before. Some of these people didn't believe me before, they thought I was "seeking the sensational". They thought that I thought I was special and great. In my wife's case, she was scared, she cried(I've shared that story somewhere on the forum). Soon as they experimented upon my words, and read the scriptures I gave them, they eventually found it to be true and had experiences with God. I'll be the first to tell you each and every person I speak of is greater than me. They are more diligent, they are more quick to remember God than I.

This is why Finrock, and I always bring up our personal experience. It's not a club, or a pedestal. There's just an enormous difference in life and perspective when large changes occur.

Imagine seeing a lake for the first time. You'd think it's enormous . People a long time ago probably found large lakes and thought they were the largest bodies of water in the world, or the biggest mountain in the world. Obviously they cannot believe that anymore when they find the ocean, or the himalayas. They realize their previous perspective had a small scope. It's impossible to know and understand what you have not experienced. Your world is whatever you have seen and experienced, anything outside of that scope is just not real to you until you see something outside of that scope.

I don't really know how else to explain this, I'm sorry for that. I just don't think you realize that Finrock doesn't feel "higher" than he was before. Such experiences make you feel lower, and smaller, and more insignificant. Sharing these things and urging people to seek them doesn't mean everything I Just said is not true.

Finrock was correct in what he said to Rand.
Rand did not know what Finrock was saying. Finrock paraphrased the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints, when President Nelson said to be "Taught by the Lord himself", which is to be taught by the Holy Ghost. Rand assumed Finrock was talking about seeing Jesus, which he was not.

When Finrock says "I've been where you're at". That's not a club, that's not bragging. I'm sorry, I just don't see it. He's only saying," I once viewed life through that scope. Eventually God can expand that scope."
I don't imagine I can change your mind, but I don't see in Finrock what you and glcay see.
Amonhi?Thomas?(Others that I forgot the name of?) sometimes, I see it. Not Finrock though, I'm sorry.

and again, I don't agree with everything Finrock says, but this topic is important, and I support Finrock's efforts in helping others seek experiences with God, because I personally know how drastically it will change their life and turn them to Jesus Christ.

[gclayjr]

Stahura,

When Finrock says "I've been where you're at". That's not a club, that's not bragging. I'm sorry, I just don't see it. He's only saying," I once viewed life through that scope. Eventually God can expand that scope."
I don't imagine I can change your mind, but I don't see in Finrock what you and glcay see.
Amonhi?Thomas?(Others that I forgot the name of?) sometimes, I see it. Not Finrock though, I'm sorry.

and again, I don't agree with everything Finrock says, but this topic is important, and I support Finrock's efforts in helping others seek experiences with God, because I personally know how drastically it will change their life and turn them to Jesus Christ.

OK tell me. What is the difference between Finrock [and you] who have had this manifestation from the HG that your calling and election is made sure, and someone like me who hasn't, or even had any other dazzling manifestation from the HG. Yet I have been baptized, Ordained a HP, Married and sealed in the Temple, and a true testimony of Jesus Christ and the fact that the LDS church is the only true church of God, and that Pres Nelson is the lord's anointed prophet.

Do I truly have the Melchizedek priesthood, and the authority from JC to use it?

Are my Children's Baptisms legitimate?

Is my marriage sealed for time and all eternity?

What do you, Finrock, and Amonhi have that I don't?

Regards,

George Clay

[Zathura]

Stahura,

When Finrock says "I've been where you're at". That's not a club, that's not bragging. I'm sorry, I just don't see it. He's only saying," I once viewed life through that scope. Eventually God can expand that scope."
I don't imagine I can change your mind, but I don't see in Finrock what you and glcay see.
Amonhi?Thomas?(Others that I forgot the name of?) sometimes, I see it. Not Finrock though, I'm sorry.

and again, I don't agree with everything Finrock says, but this topic is important, and I support Finrock's efforts in helping others seek experiences with God, because I personally know how drastically it will change their life and turn them to Jesus Christ.

OK tell me. What is the difference between Finrock [and you] who have had this manifestation from the HG that your calling and election is made sure, and someone like me who hasn't. Yet I have been baptized, Ordained a HP, Married and sealed in the Temple, and a true testimony of Jesus Christ and the fact that the LDS church is the only true church of God, and the Pres Nelson is the lord's anointed prophet.

Do I truly have the Melchizedek priesthood, and the authority from JC to use it?

Are my Children's Baptisms legitimate?

Is my marriage sealed for time and all eternity?

What do you, Finrock, and Amonhi have that I don't?

Regards,

George Clay

I’ve never claimed to have made my calling and election made sure. After all the time I’ve spent studying it, I’m not sure I even know what it is to make your calling and election sure.
As far as Finrock and Amonhi, their claims to have made their calling and elections sure don’t mean anything to me in my life. I hope they have made their calling and elections sure, I hope they are telling the truth, but I don’t know, and it doesn’t really matter if I know.

Do you have priesthood authority?
Well, according to you, you were ordained in the correct manner, so yes. Priesthood power? Well, I don’t know. Only you can know. The power is inseparably connected to the powers of heaven. President Nelson has expressed concern twice now that too many in the Church don’t understand priesthood and priesthood power. I’d suggest reading the thread I made about Nelson’s 2 conference addresses to see what I think about that . In the end , I can’t see if you have power. Only you can. You can use your personal experiences, scriptures, conference etc. to determine if you have power, or just authority.

Your children’s baptisms legitimate?
I believe they are. This does go back to the baptism of Spirit though. As every Mormon knows, they must be baptized by Spirit as well. Only they can ever truly know if they have. (I’ve obviously discusses this at length elsewhere)

Is your marriage sealed for time and eternity?
Only you can know. McConkie spoke much of sealings, and that such sealings(which are not limited to Temple marriages) can be revoked and regained based on personal righteousness.
Unrighteous Dominion, contention, anger, sin can affect that. I don’t know you, I’m not your bishop, so I can’t comment on that. Only you can know. You seem like a good enough guy though

What do I, Finrock, and Amonhi have that you don’t?
Well, Finrock and Amonhi say they have received a guarantee of the promise of eternal life. In McConkies words “ have a seal placed on their election which guarantees the receipt of the promised blessing”

I have never received such a promise, or guarantee, or seal.

I know that I have been Born of God, my heart was changed and the carnal , angry, lustfal, envious person I used to be is gone.

I know that I was ordained in the same manner as you were. I know that I have truly had priesthood power at times, and at most other times I have not had real power.

That’s all I can really say to your question. If you have not been Born of God, then you must be born of God. Alma asked members of the church if they had been Born of God. President Benson said “Would not the progress of the church increase dramatically today with an increasing number of those that are spiritually reborn?

Only you can know. I, and Finrock, and some others merely talk about it in the hopes that maybe some lurker sees it, experiments and as a result of their faith are born of God. Or our hope is that that members who have been Born of God but do not recognize when exactly that happened can realize that the experience they had at some point in their life was actually the moment they were born of God, and that allows them to teach and help others

[Finrock]

Rand, unless we have actual experiences with the divine, where we are tutored and taught by God Himself
-Finrock

Finrock, is the Holy Ghost God? Can you experience an event with any other member of the Godhead without the Holy Ghost present? You are stuck on the sensational. A visit from the Savior is an amazing experience, but, you need to put your boots back on and go to work afterward again, and trust the Holy Ghost, who is a member of the Godhead, and a God by the way, to lead you and to guide you with the still small voice, just like Elijah.

Your post is evidence that you do not know or understand what it is that I'm saying. If you did understand then you wouldn't be saying that "I'm stuck" on the sensational. It has nothing to do with "the sensational". The thing is is that I've been where you are at. You will continue to believe as you do until God shows you otherwise.

-Finrock

You are sounding more and more like Amonhi & Co. all the time. Have they put you on retainer to keep the engine running here Finrock? It must be so frustrating talking to the less spiritually advanced all the time who are just stuck where you used to be. How do you do it?

Thanks, but, before you go too far, let me just remind you and everyone else that I'm a hypocrite and I know it. I'm not a good example for anyone. I will disappoint you!

Since I've been born again I have realized that only by having the love of God in my heart can I live. Although I want to do and be good, after being born again, I am not perfect. In fact, I am terribly flawed and would you know all of my flaws you would likely think I were a fraud and doubt that God has every had anything to do with me, and, yet He has been good to me and has rescued me and saved me and continues to bless me even to this day in ways that I know that I don't deserve.

-Finrock

[gclayjr]

Stahura,



You seem to be closer to Mark, who you attacked in reference to Finrock and Amonhi, than Finrock, or Amonhi themselves.

However I think you still have some splainin to do

This does go back to the baptism of Spirit though. As every Mormon knows, they must be baptized by Spirit as well. Only they can ever truly know if they have. (I’ve obviously discusses this at length elsewhere)

Do you think that only those who have received some magnificent heavenly confirmation of the baptism by the spirit are the only ones who have had such a confirmation? Do you not understand that Satan does a lot to confuse by imitating wondrous heavenly revelations, and that maybe some who believe that they have had such revelations, in reality have been fooled? I have seen proof of such things.

What does it take for the HG to determine that someone who has earnestly sought Jesus Christ, been baptized and earnestly tries to follow Christ and the HG, isn't worthy to be blessed with some touchy feely confidence that they, unlike others, have actually had that baptism, but you other guys have not, otherwise you would feel that confirmation... and the moment when it happened?

I agree that all things done in the name of Christ need to be sealed by the HG. I don't, however, agree that all things sealed by the HG, are demonstrated to individuals in some dramatic way so that they can smugly think they have made it, but those other guys have not.


Especially being so smug as to tell those who are trying to follow Christ, hey unless you get that confirmation of sealing by the HG [Fire], you got nothin bub!

Regards,

George Clay

[Mark]

"Calling and election honestly means something different to so many different people. If i remember correctly, Finrock's story was something along the lines of "I heard the voice of the Lord confirm that my Calling and Election has been made sure". And not seeing or touching Jesus Christ in person like Snuffer and others(Amonhi? I don't remember). Both of those things are manifestation of the Holy Ghost and the power of the Holy Ghost, or something done through the Spirit of the Lord.
In summary, both of the things you mentioned are the Holy Ghost,"

Stahura there seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding of what it means to have your calling and election made sure. Perhaps this is causing a communication breakdown. Here is a good article about this wonderful blessing. I think It is important to understand it before proclaiming to have received it. Lets just say that I am VERY skeptical of anonymous people who come on forums and start shouting that they have experienced these sacred blessings in their own life. Especially when the fruits of this dont always seem to match up to their actions. I know of a number of apostates and enemies of the church who claim to have had this happen to them. If you knew of their actions you would be skeptical as well.

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1976/07/acce ... e?lang=eng

[gclayjr]

I guess I don't believe that either Christ or the HG are respecters of persons. I believe that generally any Ordinance; whether baptism, Ordination, sealing or whatever is sealed by fire or the HG within nano seconds..... unless... you are dishonest or not honorable. Certainly, someone can deceive any human including the Lord's servants, but not the HG.

So the real answer is you will know if the ordinance was NOT sealed by the HG, even if the church authorities do not, IMMEDIATELY!

I am sure that it gives many of you comfort to get such a conformation when you feel doubts about yourselves. Maybe the HG provides that to assuage your misgivings, but it is NOT the litmus test!

It is arrogant, self deception to think that you have had your Ordinance approved by God, but those of us, who have not had such a thing, have only had some ritual performed by man, that means nothing...

And yes, just like Mark said, It does give you the opportunity to promote yourselves as being a bit better than those other people who as you see, are relying on the arm of flesh...

Why else repeat it over, and over, and over again?


Regards,

George Clay

[Rand]

Finrock was correct in what he said to Rand.
Rand did not know what Finrock was saying. Finrock paraphrased the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints, when President Nelson said to be "Taught by the Lord himself", which is to be taught by the Holy Ghost. Rand assumed Finrock was talking about seeing Jesus, which he was not.

When Finrock says "I've been where you're at". That's not a club, that's not bragging. I'm sorry, I just don't see it. He's only saying," I once viewed life through that scope. Eventually God can expand that scope."
I don't imagine I can change your mind, but I don't see in Finrock what you and glcay see.
Amonhi?Thomas?(Others that I forgot the name of?) sometimes, I see it. Not Finrock though, I'm sorry.

and again, I don't agree with everything Finrock says, but this topic is important, and I support Finrock's efforts in helping others seek experiences with God, because I personally know how drastically it will change their life and turn them to Jesus Christ.

What I find interesting is that neither you, Stahura, nor Finrock know what experience I have, nor what context I am speaking from. Not to be demeaning, but at the age of 16 I sought what you and Finrock are preaching. By the time I was 30, I had learned that such experiences still lead to "Enduring to the End". I don't care if you have seen Christ, embraced him and been told you shall have eternal life." You can still fall, and if you don't endure to the end, you will be lost. And, if you proceed to teach others in such a way that it leads them off the path, then you not only will fall, but you will fall all the way to outer darkness.

What you both are teaching is leading you to the later state, if you don't stop it. You don't seem to know what you are tampering with.

Yes, being born again is vital. Having your calling and election made sure in this life is a notable desire and laudable goal. But, taking them out of context of the Church, which protects the Gospel, and criticize the Church, while building yourselves up as being smarter than the rest of the "Mormons", and certainly smarter than the Church leadership is a position of extraordinary ignorance, or brazen arrogance. Either way, you really should stop trying to lead others away to your path, assuming that your experience is greater than theirs, and that your way is better than Christ's established way. It will lead not to enlightenment of others as you assume, but to your own fall.

[Zathura]

"Calling and election honestly means something different to so many different people. If i remember correctly, Finrock's story was something along the lines of "I heard the voice of the Lord confirm that my Calling and Election has been made sure". And not seeing or touching Jesus Christ in person like Snuffer and others(Amonhi? I don't remember). Both of those things are manifestation of the Holy Ghost and the power of the Holy Ghost, or something done through the Spirit of the Lord.
In summary, both of the things you mentioned are the Holy Ghost,"

Stahura there seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding of what it means to have your calling and election made sure. Perhaps this is causing a communication breakdown. Here is a good article about this wonderful blessing. I think It is important to understand it before proclaiming to have received it. Lets just say that I am VERY skeptical of anonymous people who come on forums and start shouting that they have experienced these sacred blessings in their own life. Especially when the fruits of this dont always seem to match up to their actions. I know of a number of apostates and enemies of the church who claim to have had this happen to them. If you knew of their actions you would be skeptical as well.

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1976/07/acce ... e?lang=eng

I am a skeptic as well, believe it or not. I actually had that talk printed out my whole mission. It's a great talk , and it lead me study the topic in the first place.

[Zathura]

Finrock was correct in what he said to Rand.
Rand did not know what Finrock was saying. Finrock paraphrased the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints, when President Nelson said to be "Taught by the Lord himself", which is to be taught by the Holy Ghost. Rand assumed Finrock was talking about seeing Jesus, which he was not.

When Finrock says "I've been where you're at". That's not a club, that's not bragging. I'm sorry, I just don't see it. He's only saying," I once viewed life through that scope. Eventually God can expand that scope."
I don't imagine I can change your mind, but I don't see in Finrock what you and glcay see.
Amonhi?Thomas?(Others that I forgot the name of?) sometimes, I see it. Not Finrock though, I'm sorry.

and again, I don't agree with everything Finrock says, but this topic is important, and I support Finrock's efforts in helping others seek experiences with God, because I personally know how drastically it will change their life and turn them to Jesus Christ.

And, if you proceed to teach others in such a way that it leads them off the path, then you not only will fall, but you will fall all the way to outer darkness.

What you both are teaching is leading you to the later state, if you don't stop it. You don't seem to know what you are tampering with.

You're far from the first to say this, and you won't be the last. You have your agency and your opinion and leave it at that. I don't agree with you, you don't agree with me. Agree to disagree, I won't engage you on this topic anymore!

[BackBlast]

"Calling and election honestly means something different to so many different people...,"

Stahura there seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding of what it means to have your calling and election made sure.

I believe his confusion is the how, not the what.

I believe that the how is very individualized rather than a particular recipe. The knowledge of the blessing is provided to you by some means, be it by the spirit, by an audible voice, by a dream, by a vision, by a visitation, by an inspired priesthood blessing, or by a person otherwise speaking by the spirit to you - and having that blessing confirmed in your heart. In whatever time or place the Lord chooses to do so.

[BackBlast]

As for the various great experiences that are available. I don't think it's right to covet or lust after them. Wanting to have a vision or visitation for the sake of having a vision is backwards. I feel very limited in my experience, but will share what I have learned. I have sought some of these kinds of experiences and blessings. I have obtained some, often months to years later. Growth tends to be slow even if some of them have happened relatively quickly.

Now when I ask for an answer to a question, it may well come by the spirit, by a feeling, or just seeing the Lord's hand in my life or the life of another. It may come by dream, or a dream to my wife, or a vision to my wife. Sometimes a companion set of dreams and/or vision where we only can understand it together.

The bottom line is that I feel like I have to work for it, ask for it, and then pay attention, and often, be patient and wait on the Lord's timing and chosen method. There are advantages to the various methods and the Lord knows exactly what he's doing. Stretching and strengthening exercises, like with muscles, are good for you.

[Zathura]

Stahura,



You seem to be closer to Mark, who you attacked in reference to Finrock and Amonhi, than Finrock, or Amonhi themselves.

However I think you still have some splainin to do

This does go back to the baptism of Spirit though. As every Mormon knows, they must be baptized by Spirit as well. Only they can ever truly know if they have. (I’ve obviously discusses this at length elsewhere)

Do you think that only those who have received some magnificent heavenly confirmation of the baptism by the spirit are the only ones who have had such a confirmation? Do you not understand that Satan does a lot to confuse by imitating wondrous heavenly revelations, and that maybe some who believe that they have had such revelations, in reality have been fooled? I have seen proof of such things.

What does it take for the HG to determine that someone who has earnestly sought Jesus Christ, been baptized and earnestly tries to follow Christ and the HG, isn't worthy to be blessed with some touchy feely confidence that they, unlike others, have actually had that baptism, but you other guys have not, otherwise you would feel that confirmation... and the moment when it happened?

I agree that all things done in the name of Christ need to be sealed by the HG. I don't, however, agree that all things sealed by the HG, are demonstrated to individuals in some dramatic way so that they can smugly think they have made it, but those other guys have not.


Especially being so smug as to tell those who are trying to follow Christ, hey unless you get that confirmation of sealing by the HG [Fire], you got nothin bub!

Regards,

George Clay

I've answered different forms of these questions many times on other threads, I imagine you've seen them. I'll try to summarize as best as i can, if you'd like any further description I'll have to find other posts of mine and quote them instead of rehashing it.

I read the Book of Mormon, D&C, Bible, Pearl of Great Price. Therein lies example after example if the "miraculous". Alma, Nephi, Lehi, Ammon, Aaron, Lamoni, his father, the other Nephi, the other other Nephi, The other Alma. Mosiah. Benjamin. Ether , Moroni, Moses, Adam, Enoch. There is nothing except "the miraculous". Each example of the Baptism of Fire, or visitation of the Holy Ghost, or descension of the Holy Ghost is "miraculous". It's repeated over and over over. There is no teaching of "born of god over time". There is no scripture of "sanctified over time, slowly being born again". There is no teaching, nor are there any such stories present in these scriptures that we have.
As far as priesthood power, it's not a coincidence that every miracle you see performed by these prophets, they first had a "miraculous/sensational" experience. Again, I point to my post about President Nelson.

Then, I focus on what the scriptures actually teach. If you are not born of the water and of the Spirit, YOU CANNOT ENTER the Kingdom of God. When I first began to see these things and believe them, I doubted them. I doubted my doubts. I talked to my Mission President. Just like any church leader I don't consider him infallible. I think he, like me and everyone else, has faults. But he confirmed everything I said. I'm positive there are Mission Presidents who wouldn't have confirmed it, but it is what it is.

In spite of everything so far, I accept other explanations. John Pontius wrote a fantastic book: "Following the Light of Christ into his Presence". He talks about spiritual rebirth, and this "miraculous experience" that we are discussing.
His belief is that those who do not have these experiences throughout life, but are faithful, keep covenants and keep commandments will eventually be spiritually reborn, or are reborn over time. Although I don't think this is scriptural at all, I accept it may be a possibility.
Pontius said there is a difference in the two paths.
One path , if you constantly press forward, is a process of constant spiritual highs, followed by struggles, and then more spiritual highs. The result is more spiritual knowledge and spiritual power. The other path, while "equally admirable" and happy, is relatively devoid of true spiritual power and the exceeding joy that comes with the other path.

This is extremely difficult to explain on a forum.

Especially being so smug as to tell those who are trying to follow Christ, hey unless you get that confirmation of sealing by the HG [Fire], you got nothin bub!

Here's the thing, until I had that "confirmation of sealing by fire", I was one of those that was trying to follow Christ my whole life who had never had anything miraculous. There are stark differences in my life before and after the "confirmation of sealing by fire.
All I'm saying is: Clearly something changed, and it's something i think every follower of Christ needs to seek. Those experiences were followed by real miracles and experiences that I have never had before, and have not had since, except during and soon after the times where I had similar experiences.

[Zathura]

"Calling and election honestly means something different to so many different people...,"

Stahura there seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding of what it means to have your calling and election made sure.

I believe his confusion is the how, not the what.

I believe that the how is very individualized rather than a particular recipe. The knowledge of the blessing is provided to you by some means, be it by the spirit, by an audible voice, by a dream, by a vision, by a visitation, by an inspired priesthood blessing, or by a person otherwise speaking by the spirit to you - and having that blessing confirmed in your heart. In whatever time or place the Lord chooses to do so.

^
perfect.

[BackBlast]

I would also like to say that I really like the current theme President Nelson has been expounding upon the last several years. Make sure your personal channel to heaven is open. Whatever that looks like, make sure it is wide open. And then work on expanding it. No matter where you are - that's great advice. Asking for some additional return frequencies to be available to you in your efforts, I believe, is entirely appropriate.

[Zathura]

I guess I don't believe that either Christ or the HG are respecters of persons. I believe that generally any Ordinance; whether baptism, Ordination, sealing or whatever is sealed by fire or the HG within nano seconds..... unless... you are dishonest or not honorable. Certainly, someone can deceive any human including the Lord's servants, but not the HG.

So the real answer is you will know if the ordinance was NOT sealed by the HG, even if the church authorities do not, IMMEDIATELY!

I am sure that it gives many of you comfort to get such a conformation when you feel doubts about yourselves. Maybe the HG provides that to assuage your misgivings, but it is NOT the litmus test!

It is arrogant, self deception to think that you have had your Ordinance approved by God, but those of us, who have not had such a thing, have only had some ritual performed by man, that means nothing...

And yes, just like Mark said, It does give you the opportunity to promote yourselves as being a bit better than those other people who as you see, are relying on the arm of flesh...

Why else repeat it over, and over, and over again?


Regards,

George Clay

I think the same thing. That's why I think it's perfectly possible for someone like YOU to be further along in your spiritual progression than even some random 70 or even an Apostle.

I don't believe than anything is sealed by fire/HG within nano seconds no matter what. I think it talks an awful lot more of humility, repentance, mighty prayer than what the average Mormon/Christian believes. I don't think this because that makes me special, I just think it because I used to believe what you believed until certain experiences changed my perspective. that's all.

Sure, some people take it as an opportunity to promote themselves. I don't. I purposely stay quiet in church, I don't want attention. I don't want people to think I'm some spiritual giant, and I imagine Finrock is the same. I could care less what anonymous people on the internet think.

I'd rather not be painted as an Apostate or Snuffer follower, but I care more about helping people feel what I have felt and enjoy what I've enjoyed. I'm clearly not being praised as a spiritual giant/amazing person after repeatedly talking about this, so why do I continue if I'm not getting what I supposedly really want, which is praise??

When Ezra Taft Benson wondered how much a difference it would make if more members of the church were spiritually born of God, what were the millions of members thinking?
"Is it just the inactives that drink coffee?
The guy with the tattoos?
Surely I've followed Christ my whole life, surely I've been Born of God, I've received the ordinances.? "

Who was he talking about?

I think we are better off pointing at ourselves assuming it's us(even if it's not) and attempting to find out, than to say it can't possibly be me.

[drtanner]

...

[gclayjr]

Stahura,

Elder Bruce R. McConkie in his book Mormon Doctrine clarifies this further. He states, “The Holy Spirit of Promise is the Holy Spirit promised the saints, or in other words the Holy Ghost. This name-title is used in connection with the sealing and ratifying power of the Holy Ghost, that is, the power given him to ratify and approve the righteous acts of men so that those acts will be binding on earth and in heaven. ‘All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations,’ must be sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise, if they are to have ‘efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead.’ (D&C 132:7.)

“To seal is to ratify, to justify, or to approve. Thus an act which is sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise is one which is ratified by the Holy Ghost; it is one which is approved by the Lord; and the person who has taken the obligation upon himself is justified by the Spirit in the thing he has done. The ratifying seal of approval is put upon an act only if those entering the contract are worthy as a result of personal righteousness to receive divine approbation. They are ‘sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.’ (D&C 76:53.) If they are not just and true and worthy the ratifying seal is withheld. …

“The operation and power of the Holy Spirit of Promise is best illustrated by the ordinance and contract of baptism. An unworthy candidate for baptism might deceive the elders and get the ordinance performed, but no one can lie to the Holy Ghost and get by undetected. Accordingly, the baptism of an unworthy and unrepentant person would not be sealed by the Spirit; it would not be ratified by the Holy Ghost; the unworthy person would not be justified by the Spirit in his actions. If thereafter he became worthy through repentance and obedience, the seal would then be put in force. Similarly, if a worthy person is baptized, with the ratifying approval of the Holy Ghost attending the performance, the seal may be broken by subsequent sin.

“These principles also apply to every other ordinance and performance in the Church. Thus if both parties are ‘just and true,’ if they are worthy, a ratifying seal is placed on their temple marriage; if they are unworthy, they are not justified by the Spirit and the ratification of the Holy Ghost is withheld. Subsequent worthiness will put the seal in force, and unrighteousness will break any seal.

https://www.lds.org/new-era/1978/06/q-a ... e?lang=eng\

Looks pretty much like exactly what I said. The HG puts his seal, on all righteous ordinances, and not on unrighteous ones. No mention of if or how he might inform the recipient of that seal.. And I see no reason for it to take more than a nano second.

Regards,

George Clay

[shadow]

If someone is out of shape, what is the most effective way to help them gain a desire to get into shape?

Interesting point. The thing about this topic is that one cannot look at another and say "Hey, you need to work out". I see a few people on this site who act like rookies trying to teach others their new found skill. The entertaining part is that these rookies are trying to teach adept people who are miles ahead of them. It looks silly.

It's like these millennials who go to the gym for the sake of going to the gym. They work out and post pics on facebook or whatever but they work at Verizon or Starbucks. Sure, they probably feel good but they aren't using their fitness for anything productive. My grandpa was always in great shape and never understood the gyms on every corner. He'd quip that if somebody wanted to work out they should get a part time job working construction or some other manual labor job. Don't just say that you're in shape, use that physique for something other than bragging rights. I think it's wonderful that Stahura has had some spiritual experiences. His fallacy is that he seems to think he's unique or in a special club because of it. The reality is that he's no different than a good portion of others who keep plugging along while keeping their experiences to themselves. Like a kid who just learned to tie a shoelace- he shows others and tries to teach them the same skill and he makes it a point to let others know that he can tie a shoe. Yippee! In his exuberance of his new found knowledge he doesn't realize that everyone else already knows how to tie a shoe.
Spiritual experiences aught to be kept sacred and should be a motivator to help others, not condemn them.

#baptismoffirebaby!

[Zathura]

Stahura,

Elder Bruce R. McConkie in his book Mormon Doctrine clarifies this further. He states, “The Holy Spirit of Promise is the Holy Spirit promised the saints, or in other words the Holy Ghost. This name-title is used in connection with the sealing and ratifying power of the Holy Ghost, that is, the power given him to ratify and approve the righteous acts of men so that those acts will be binding on earth and in heaven. ‘All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations,’ must be sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise, if they are to have ‘efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead.’ (D&C 132:7.)

“To seal is to ratify, to justify, or to approve. Thus an act which is sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise is one which is ratified by the Holy Ghost; it is one which is approved by the Lord; and the person who has taken the obligation upon himself is justified by the Spirit in the thing he has done. The ratifying seal of approval is put upon an act only if those entering the contract are worthy as a result of personal righteousness to receive divine approbation. They are ‘sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.’ (D&C 76:53.) If they are not just and true and worthy the ratifying seal is withheld. …

“The operation and power of the Holy Spirit of Promise is best illustrated by the ordinance and contract of baptism. An unworthy candidate for baptism might deceive the elders and get the ordinance performed, but no one can lie to the Holy Ghost and get by undetected. Accordingly, the baptism of an unworthy and unrepentant person would not be sealed by the Spirit; it would not be ratified by the Holy Ghost; the unworthy person would not be justified by the Spirit in his actions. If thereafter he became worthy through repentance and obedience, the seal would then be put in force. Similarly, if a worthy person is baptized, with the ratifying approval of the Holy Ghost attending the performance, the seal may be broken by subsequent sin.

“These principles also apply to every other ordinance and performance in the Church. Thus if both parties are ‘just and true,’ if they are worthy, a ratifying seal is placed on their temple marriage; if they are unworthy, they are not justified by the Spirit and the ratification of the Holy Ghost is withheld. Subsequent worthiness will put the seal in force, and unrighteousness will break any seal.

https://www.lds.org/new-era/1978/06/q-a ... e?lang=eng\

Looks pretty much like exactly what I said. The HG puts his seal, on all righteous ordinances, and not on unrighteous ones. No mention of if or how he might inform the recipient of that seal.. And I see no reason for it to take more than a nano second.

Regards,

George Clay

it is exactly what you said. I just said it takes a bit more "righteousness" to "get the seal" than most think.

[Zathura]

I think it's wonderful that Stahura has had some spiritual experiences. His fallacy is that he seems to think he's unique or in a special club because of it. The reality is that he's no different than a good portion of others who keep plugging along while keeping their experiences to themselves. Like a kid who just learned to tie a shoelace- he shows others and tries to teach them the same skill and he makes it a point to let others know that he can tie a shoe. Yippee! In his exuberance of his new found knowledge he doesn't realize that everyone else already knows how to tie a shoe.
Spiritual experiences aught to be kept sacred and should be a motivator to help others, not condemn them.

#baptismoffirebaby!

No, I've stated probably 3 or 4 times in the past few days that I believe MANY(was that emphasized enough?) others have the same experience that I've had, they just don't know what it was, and that's usually the reason they don't talk about it. They assume it was just a cool answer, when it was far more than that. In that aspect, I break from the people you guys always compare me to, who love to say that so FEW every experience it.

If you are someone that's never had such an experience and it irritates you so much that I urge you to seek it, that's your choice. You have the agency and freedom to choose that. You can choose to believe something else and I don't fault you for it.

Some spiritual experiences should be kept, some should be shared. I haven't condemned a soul.

That hashtag is actually pretty offensive to me. I don't get offended easily, but you're making light of something that changed my life. It's like me making fun of your belief and writing #followtheprophetguys! #lol

I don't care if you disagree with me, I don't care what you think of me.
Regardless of how many times you all compare me to Snuffer, compare me to Amonhi or anything else, I'm not doing to stop sharing something that I feel I'm supposed to share. I'm not sharing this for Shadow, and Gclay, and Mark, and A12, and anyone else that have opposed me every step of the way since I've started posting 4 years ago. I love you all and accept that you disagree with me. There are thousands that read without posting, and I know that some will experiment on my word, and Finrocks words and they will end up closer to their Savior. That's it.

About that humorous analogy. There are those in my life that assured me that "They already knew how to tie a shoe" and then eventually they had an experience and realized they actually "didn't know how to tie a shoe before", and they thanked me and others for urging them to seek Christ.

Try to find the last time I've come to the forum to talk about Shadow's fallacy, or Gclay's fallacy, or Mark's fallacy. I'm not talking about you guys. I'm not telling you what you're doing wrong. You guys all pointed that out a LONG TIME AGO and I stopped, because I realized it was wrong. I ask you to do the same. I'm not saying thing about your lives. I'm testifying of something I feel need to testify of. That's it.

Feel free to block my posts if that helps you.