Discerning self centered spirituality

[drtanner]

This is great. It presents true dangers that people will inevitably face..


but it can cause the problem that other identical articles/ teachings can cause.
God tells us to part the veil, he tells us to seek his face. He wants us to “ascend”.

There are angels, and translated beings and it is scriptural for them to teach people.

Articles like this can push people away from those things which really are things of God, things he commanded

The part about the priesthood power can be picked at as well. There are plenty of scriptural accounts of priesthood bestowal that are different from what we do today.

I don’t want to cause a discussion on that, but I’m just pointing it out.

These are real dangers, but let’s be careful and not prevent people from following these commandments at the same time

I think I agree with most of what you are saying here, but would you mind helping me understand what you are saying by, "things which really are things of God, and things he commanded?" I would like to make sure I am interpreting correctly what you mean.

For example, Seeking the face of God, seeking to be in his presence are things the scriptures and Prophets urged us to do. It is of God, it is scriptural.

Seeking the “mysteries of God” is scriptural. The ministering Of angels is scriptural and of God.

My point is that articles like this cause members to ridicule or simply not believe any occurrence of these types of manifestations , instead of simply realizing that they are of God but there are spiritual dangers like the ones listed in the article.
There was a discussion on these awhile back and another poster in this forum said that the brethren are our messengers now, and therefore there is no need for ministering of Angels. That type of belief is the result of articles like this.

In every situation I’ve ever been in, in Brazil and he United States, where a ward member happened to tell someone they had seen an angel and one point, or seen God, they are ridiculed. The person isn’t claiming any new doctrine or pulling a Snuffer, just a simple comment of what they have seen.

This shouldn’t happen in God’s church.
The scriptures warn of what it means if there is a lack of such gifts.

So yes, there are dangers, but people should be careful to think that they should not seek messengers of God and to learn “mysteries” etc

[Rand]

As is so often the case the Book of Mormon addresses this topic in a subtle but profound way:
Jacob 4:14 But behold, the Jews were a stiffnecked people; and they despised the words of plainness, and killed the prophets, and sought for things that they could not understand. Wherefore, because of their blindness, which blindness came by looking beyond the mark, they must needs fall; for God hath taken away his plainness from them, and delivered unto them many things which they cannot understand, because they desired it. And because they desired it God hath done it, that they may stumble."

Even though such dramatic experiences as we are referring to are marvelous, they can be looking beyond the mark. I know as I have pondered and prayed about such experiences, I have felt powerful confirmation that if I wanted it, I could have it on my terms, or I could wait to have that experience on Gods terms, but either way, I would have a burden that I needed to live up to the rest of my life. I decided it is better to trust God's timing rather than my wants. I would most likely be looking beyond the mark, like the Jews.
I would prefer not to stumble...I will trust God's timing for such occurrences.

[Mark]

"If Satan can just convince you that you don't need to every have spiritual experiences, and just "love", "joy", "peace" etc. "good" feelings, then he will have succeeded in convincing a person to live a life devoid of spiritual power, compared to the spirit filled life that leads to priesthood power and the ability to serve others in a greater capacity."

You seem to be equating spiritual experiences with the profound and dramatic manifestations that involve beyond the veil visitations and visions. I think that could be leading you to looking beyond the mark stahura. The fruits of the spirit ARE love and peace and tender good feelings of joy. That is how the spirit works with most people! I think Elder Bednars thoughts In conference are instructive:

"President Joseph F. Smith explained how this pattern of revelation occurred in his life: “As a boy … I would frequently … ask the Lord to show me some marvelous thing, in order that I might receive a testimony. But the Lord withheld marvels from me, and showed me the truth, line upon line …, until He made me to know the truth from the crown of my head to the soles of my feet, and until doubt and fear had been absolutely purged from me. He did not have to send an angel from the heavens to do this, nor did He have to speak with the trump of an archangel. By the whisperings of the still small voice of the spirit of the living God, He gave to me the testimony I possess. And by this principle and power He will give to all the children of men a knowledge of the truth that will stay with them, and it will make them to know the truth, as God knows it, and to do the will of the Father as Christ does it. And no amount of marvelous manifestations will ever accomplish this” (in Conference Report, Apr. 1900, 40–41).

We as members of the Church tend to emphasize marvelous and dramatic spiritual manifestations so much that we may fail to appreciate and may even overlook the customary pattern by which the Holy Ghost accomplishes His work. The very “simpleness of the way” (1 Nephi 17:41) of receiving small and incremental spiritual impressions that over time and in totality constitute a desired answer or the direction we need may cause us to look “beyond the mark” (Jacob 4:14).

I have talked with many individuals who question the strength of their personal testimony and underestimate their spiritual capacity because they do not receive frequent, miraculous, or strong impressions. Perhaps as we consider the experiences of Joseph in the Sacred Grove, of Saul on the road to Damascus, and of Alma the Younger, we come to believe something is wrong with or lacking in us if we fall short in our lives of these well-known and spiritually striking examples. If you have had similar thoughts or doubts, please know that you are quite normal. Just keep pressing forward obediently and with faith in the Savior. As you do so, you “cannot go amiss” (D&C 80:3).

President Joseph F. Smith counseled: “Show me Latter-day Saints who have to feed upon miracles, signs and visions in order to keep them steadfast in the Church, and I will show you members … who are not in good standing before God, and who are walking in slippery paths. It is not by marvelous manifestations unto us that we shall be established in the truth, but it is by humility and faithful obedience to the commandments and laws of God” (in Conference Report, Apr. 1900, 40).

[drtanner]

"If Satan can just convince you that you don't need to every have spiritual experiences, and just "love", "joy", "peace" etc. "good" feelings, then he will have succeeded in convincing a person to live a life devoid of spiritual power, compared to the spirit filled life that leads to priesthood power and the ability to serve others in a greater capacity."

You seem to be equating spiritual experiences with the profound and dramatic manifestations that involve beyond the veil visitations and visions. I think that could be leading you to looking beyond the mark stahura. The fruits of the spirit ARE love and peace and tender good feelings of joy. That is how the spirit works with most people! I think Elder Bednars thoughts In conference are instructive:

"President Joseph F. Smith explained how this pattern of revelation occurred in his life: “As a boy … I would frequently … ask the Lord to show me some marvelous thing, in order that I might receive a testimony. But the Lord withheld marvels from me, and showed me the truth, line upon line …, until He made me to know the truth from the crown of my head to the soles of my feet, and until doubt and fear had been absolutely purged from me. He did not have to send an angel from the heavens to do this, nor did He have to speak with the trump of an archangel. By the whisperings of the still small voice of the spirit of the living God, He gave to me the testimony I possess. And by this principle and power He will give to all the children of men a knowledge of the truth that will stay with them, and it will make them to know the truth, as God knows it, and to do the will of the Father as Christ does it. And no amount of marvelous manifestations will ever accomplish this” (in Conference Report, Apr. 1900, 40–41).

We as members of the Church tend to emphasize marvelous and dramatic spiritual manifestations so much that we may fail to appreciate and may even overlook the customary pattern by which the Holy Ghost accomplishes His work. The very “simpleness of the way” (1 Nephi 17:41) of receiving small and incremental spiritual impressions that over time and in totality constitute a desired answer or the direction we need may cause us to look “beyond the mark” (Jacob 4:14).

I have talked with many individuals who question the strength of their personal testimony and underestimate their spiritual capacity because they do not receive frequent, miraculous, or strong impressions. Perhaps as we consider the experiences of Joseph in the Sacred Grove, of Saul on the road to Damascus, and of Alma the Younger, we come to believe something is wrong with or lacking in us if we fall short in our lives of these well-known and spiritually striking examples. If you have had similar thoughts or doubts, please know that you are quite normal. Just keep pressing forward obediently and with faith in the Savior. As you do so, you “cannot go amiss” (D&C 80:3).

President Joseph F. Smith counseled: “Show me Latter-day Saints who have to feed upon miracles, signs and visions in order to keep them steadfast in the Church, and I will show you members … who are not in good standing before God, and who are walking in slippery paths. It is not by marvelous manifestations unto us that we shall be established in the truth, but it is by humility and faithful obedience to the commandments and laws of God” (in Conference Report, Apr. 1900, 40).

Amen, I think this goes back to hanging your hat on a spiritual experience as a sign / testimony. No manifestation can substitute for faith in Christ, repentance and faithful obedience show many times by loving and serving others. I love the definition of intelligence elder Bednar uses when he says “consistently being true to what you know.”

Part of it is knowing:
45 And this is not all. Do ye not suppose that I know of these things myself? Behold, I testify unto you that I do know that these things whereof I have spoken are true. And how do ye suppose that I know of their surety?
46 Behold, I say unto you they are made known unto me by the Holy Spirit of God. Behold, I have fasted and prayed many days that I might know these things of myself. And now I do know of myself that they are true; for the Lord God hath made them manifest unto me by his Holy Spirit; and this is the spirit of revelation which is in me.

And part of it is being true to what you know:
5 Behold, they believed in Christ and worshiped the Father in his name, and also we worship the Father in his name. And for this intent we keep the law of Moses, it pointing our souls to him; and for this cause it is sanctified unto us for righteousness, even as it was accounted unto Abraham in the wilderness to be obedient unto the commands of God in offering up his son Isaac, which is a similitude of God and his Only Begotten Son.
6 Wherefore, we search the prophets, and we have many revelations and the spirit of prophecy; and having all these witnesses we obtain a hope, and our faith becometh unshaken, insomuch that we truly can command in the name of Jesus and the very trees obey us, or the mountains, or the waves of the sea.

[Original_Intent]

This thread reminds me of martial arts study that I did for about ten years.

After I had been in the style for about 5 years, I started to learn some pretty advanced things. I knew that one of the "founding principles of the style was to be very careful of the people into whose hands they would share the knowledge. I asked my instructor how they made sure not to teach the "wrong" people. He said, "We teach very slowly. We not only get to know the person, but because we give out information slowly, the glory hounds or those who want to use the knowledge for bad purposes get bored and leave before they learn anything significant." I think the gospel is a lot the same way, at least in some ways. Of course God knows our hearts perfectly. But also, I think there is a lot of pretty mundane, hard work - things with no glory and probably not all that fun or interesting. The wheat and the tares are largely self-sifted, those willing to do years of quiet service are taught greater things, and those who want the glory of the world go to the great and spacious building of their own accord.

[Finrock]

And part of it is being true to what you know:
5 Behold, they believed in Christ and worshiped the Father in his name, and also we worship the Father in his name. And for this intent we keep the law of Moses, it pointing our souls to him; and for this cause it is sanctified unto us for righteousness, even as it was accounted unto Abraham in the wilderness to be obedient unto the commands of God in offering up his son Isaac, which is a similitude of God and his Only Begotten Son.
6 Wherefore, we search the prophets, and we have many revelations and the spirit of prophecy; and having all these witnesses we obtain a hope, and our faith becometh unshaken, insomuch that we truly can command in the name of Jesus and the very trees obey us, or the mountains, or the waves of the sea.

They searched the prophets AND they had many revelations and the spirit of prophecy. "Having all these witnesses" is how they obtained a hope and their faith became unshaken. They obtained their hope and their unshaken faith to endure to the end because of their many revelations and the spirit of prophecy. This seems to contradict what you were saying. Their hope and their faith was not as a result of them "loving and serving others" or because of "faithful obedience" to Church standards (listening to leaders, going to Church, home teaching, tithing, keeping the sabbath).

Again, it was because the many manifestations (revelations) that they had and because of the Spirit of Prophecy (which is extraordinary) that they had the faith and the hope they had, which after having obtained that faith and that hope they were enabled to be filled with charity.

It isn't obey, therefore you love. It is love, therefore you obey.

-Finrock

[Rand]

And part of it is being true to what you know:
5 Behold, they believed in Christ and worshiped the Father in his name, and also we worship the Father in his name. And for this intent we keep the law of Moses, it pointing our souls to him; and for this cause it is sanctified unto us for righteousness, even as it was accounted unto Abraham in the wilderness to be obedient unto the commands of God in offering up his son Isaac, which is a similitude of God and his Only Begotten Son.
6 Wherefore, we search the prophets, and we have many revelations and the spirit of prophecy; and having all these witnesses we obtain a hope, and our faith becometh unshaken, insomuch that we truly can command in the name of Jesus and the very trees obey us, or the mountains, or the waves of the sea.

They searched the prophets AND they had many revelations and the spirit of prophecy. "Having all these witnesses" is how they obtained a hope and their faith became unshaken. They obtained their hope and their unshaken faith to endure to the end because of their many revelations and the spirit of prophecy. This seems to contradict what you were saying. Their hope and their faith was not as a result of them "loving and serving others" or because of "faithful obedience" to Church standards (listening to leaders, going to Church, home teaching, tithing, keeping the sabbath).

-Finrock

This is exactly what we were taught and encouraged to do in GC. Serve out of love as guided by revelation. You are considering revelatory experiences as the dynamite experience that creates a big bang. I think what is being taught is that the spirit of Revelation, which is the testimony of Christ which is to love him, by serving him, not by wanting him to serve you through having your big experience. The little things are the big things.

[Finrock]

This is exactly what we were taught and encouraged to do in GC. Serve out of love as guided by revelation. You are considering revelatory experiences as the dynamite experience that creates a big bang. I think what is being taught is that the spirit of Revelation, which is the testimony of Christ which is to love him, by serving him, not by wanting him to serve you through having your big experience. The little things are the big things.

Rand, unless we have actual experiences with the divine, where we are tutored and taught by God Himself, we won't have sufficient power to love, to serve, or to do any of those things. I agree that service is good, but, I've served people over and over again in my life and just serving, by itself, did not bring about lasting results. It often brought about frustrations, resentment, and a person who was worn out physically and spiritually. We need Jesus, we need to know Jesus, we need to understand Jesus, and we need to experience His divine mercy, love, and grace in our lives. These experiences are what produces the faith, the hope, and power that is needed to serve. Without these experiences, without the divine presence in our life, our works are vain and amount to nothing. We are unprofitable servants.

I did the "standard Mormon works" for years and years and years, believing much like you do and much like others, and yet I was not happy, yet I struggled, yet I lived in darkness, even though I was "doing" everything a good Mormon is "supposed" to do. I now know there is a difference between me struggling to try to serve Jesus and others in the hopes that my works will somehow fill me up with love and fulfillment and me recognizing my own nothingness and the futility of my own works and then seeking for power from God and seeking to get to know Him and to know His love and thus being filled with the Spirit because my heart is broken and my spirit contrite. My faith in Jesus became unshakeable after He rescued me from death and hell, in one grand instance, years of darkness and falsehoods vanished. One experience with Jesus undid and overcame what years of struggling to "obey" the Mormon standard works didn't even phase. Yet, those years of struggle were needed so that I could finally recognize the futility of what I had been doing and then beg God for a better way and a better answer. Yeah, I'm a believer in Jesus Christ and in His power. It was He who ended up saving me and rescuing me, and none else. This isn't selfishness, this is acknowledging that I need God in my life. Benson said that is the definition of humility.

We don't have the power within ourselves to manufacture the pure love of Christ. That gift, that power, must be given to us by God. The more personal experiences that we have with God, the more our faith in Him will increase. The more we have time to "bond" because God is tutoring us, the greater our loyalty will be to Him. The more revelations we receive, the more confidence we will have that the course and the direction of our life is approved of and sanctioned by God. I love others because Jesus loved me first. No amount of obedience, effort, work on our part will produce love for God. We have to know Him, understand Him, have experiences with Him so that we can understand how He operates and how He does His work. Then we will know what to do when we interact with others, because we will know how He interacted with us. That is how we learn to love even our enemies, because we realized that at one point we were enemies to God, and despite that He loved us, saved us, rescued us, taught us, and showed us the way.

-Finrock

[drtanner]

Also from the article that I thought was interesting and worth discussion:

Feeling

Over 64,000 people in the U.S. died of drug overdoses in 2016.

Why? Why do people kill themselves for a drug? Because it's pleasurable and makes them feel good.

Still, as you well know, just because something makes you feel good does not mean it's good for you.

So it is with emotions and feelings. Just because you feel good does not mean you're in touch with the truth.

Let's test this hypothesis. Below are some testimonies. Try to identify which one is LDS:
"I felt a burning in my heart, and a great burden seemed to have left me."
"A feeling of peace and certitude would tell me when I had found the answers and often after people would help me by pointing in the right direction."
"Every time I am there [at the church building], a feeling of peace overcomes me."
"About 10 years ago, when Jenny and I decided to start a family, we began looking for a spiritual community for our kids. During my first service at [the church]. . . I was hooked. I recall the feeling of peace that I felt when I was attending [services]."
"I felt a burning sensation in my heart."
"I was praying . . . when I felt a burning shaft of . . . love come through my head and into my heart."





Here are the answers:

1. Protestant. 2. Islam. 3. Buddhist. 4. Universalist Unitarian. 5. Protestant. 6. Catholic (source)

That's right. None of them are LDS.

Emotions are powerful things, and can generate truly peaceful, euphoric, even reverent feelings. I've watched many movies where the ending made me shed a tear or two. Music often has that effect on me, too. Then again, stepping onto the ground after riding a turbulent airflight can also bring about the same emotions! : )

Yet also, as is the case with all things, inspired feelings can also have their counterfeits. These false feelings are often unintentionally or deliberately manipulative and are not spirit-inspired. As I study marketing and advertising methods, it's shocking to see who champions strategic emotional advertising that stimulates responses, often accompanied by sad, sentimental music intentionally designed to manipulate your heartstrings. Here's what BYU Associate Academic Vice-President Noel B. Reynolds stated in his June, 1981 devotional, "Reason and Revelation":
"We are observing a widespread difficulty in distinguishing between sentimentalism and true spiritual experience. Too much of the literature used, seen, and quoted in the Church today is just sentimental trash which is designed to pull our heartstrings or moisten our eyes, but it is not born of true spiritual experience. The tendency of our youth to use sentimental stories in Church talks creates a culture of spiritual misunderstanding in which thinking and learning are discouraged. When I was bishop years ago in an Orem ward, I strongly counseled the youth not to use the compilations of sentimental stories which are available. I feel that our failure to immerse these young people in the scriptures and other high-quality literature makes them vulnerable to the cheap tactics of every moralistic movement which they encounter. Because our youth often respond positively to sentimentalism, there is a danger that we might cater to that in Church instruction generally." (https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/noel-b-r ... evelation/)
I tend to get concerned whenever I see someone crying just about every time they're at the podium. I have no doubt they feel deeply about what they're saying, and I appreciate that. But when we automatically equate tears with the presence of the Spirit, we may not be making a rational conclusion. I think Pres. Howard W. Hunter observed the same:
"Let me offer a word of caution. … I think if we are not careful, we may begin to try to counterfeit the true influence of the Spirit of the Lord by unworthy and manipulative means. I get concerned when it appears that strong emotion or free-flowing tears are equated with the presence of the Spirit. Certainly the Spirit of the Lord can bring strong emotional feelings, including tears, but that outward manifestation ought not to be confused with the presence of the Spirit itself" (The Teachings of Howard W. Hunter, 184).
Make no mistake: some sentimentality is probably good and necessary. But we should never let it gain a measure of legitimacy which is on par with, and in place of, scriptural truths. The iron rod is the word of God, not tears and sniffles.

Do you tend to give greater weight to talks and testimonies which contain excessive amounts of emotion?

Do you consistently tend to equate the presence of the Spirit when you see someone crying?

Are you emotionally invested in doctrines or teachings which are not grounded in scriptural truths?

Do you fear feeling lost or ostracized by others - including close friends or relatives - if you parted ways from a movement or organization you knew was operating in direct opposition to scriptural truths?

Experience (aka "The Test of Time")

My wife loves crime dramas. I think she's watched so many of them, she's earned an unofficial bachelors degree in Criminology. It's no wonder I consult her before I walk into the voting booth on Election Day! : )

Last week, she was watching the original CSI series, which is set in Las Vegas. I was impressed by a statement the lead character, Gil Grissom, said:
"I've been working this case for over a decade. and I take my time reaching conclusions."
So it is with us. Today - now, more than ever - we mortals must devote more time, more attention, more value in giving the Holy Ghost a chance to weigh in on the things we read and hear about.
"A fanciful and flowery and heated imagination beware of; because the things of God are of deep import; and time, and experience, and careful and ponderous and solemn thoughts can only find them out." (Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 137; emphasis mine)
As Brother Joseph so eloquently stated, the things of God require considerable contemplation. He uses words like "time", "experience", "careful", "ponderous" and "solemn" to punctuate his prose.

Unfortunately, our timetables are often a little faster than the Lord's. And it's just that incongruity between our timing and the Lord's timing that can get us into trouble.

For example, as I observe the online discussions, posts and podcasts from "The Calling and Election NOW Crowd", I'm amazed by peoples' eagerness to embrace new doctrines which have no scriptural basis in fact. Instead of disregarding the non-canonized teachings or simply placing them on a shelf, they encircle these mysteries with open hearts and outstretched hands.

Some of the most eager among us proudly display the fact that they are unprepared for the Kingdom of God, and have not given adequate attention to the weightier matters, by their self-centeredness, ambition and impatience. All the while, weightier matters - like losing oneself and developing lives of charity - go unmentioned or barely acknowledged at all.

21 times in the scriptures, the Lord places the words "heart" and "ponder" side-by-side.

Perhaps this is indicative of a process: First, we immerse ourselves, and really study, the word of God as found in the scriptures. As certain doctrines resonate with us, we put those on a "lower shelf" and ponder them. Over time, the Holy Ghost bears witness of that doctrine, and now we have two divine witnesses: the scriptures and the Holy Ghost.

"Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.
And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things." (Moroni 10:3-5; emphasis mine)

[drtanner]

And I appreciated these concluding thoughts:

The Father revealed His priorities in the mission and victory of Jesus Christ. His priority is a relationship with us. Jesus asked Peter first, "Lovest thou me?" Then, once that was established, he was commissioned to feed Jesus' sheep. The same was true for Enos (Enos 1:8-19).

Without an intimate relationship with the Son and Father, you cannot feed their sheep. You only poison and neglect them.

Once you have that relationship, Christ gets all those first-person pronouns and effortlessly turns them into second and third person pronouns. "I", "Me" "My" is replaced with "You" and "Your" so that inevitably, both will use the pronouns of Zion - "We", "Us" and "Our" - while being rooted in Jesus Christ and His truths, which we find in His words -- not words as interpreted by another.
"Without meekness, the conversational points we insist on making often take the form of "I"-that spearlike, vertical pronoun.
So, in matters little or large, if our emulation of the Lord is to be serious, we must do more than note and passively admire Jesus' meekness. We must simulate his meekness." (Elder Neal A. Maxwell, "Meekly Drenched in Destiny", BYU Speech, Sept 5, 1982)
So, when you invariably see or interact with someone who's deceived, what do you do?

Do you focus on "I'm right / you're wrong"? Do you focus on how hurt you feel? Or maybe you're tempted to respond with a salvo of your own doctrinal missiles (thus engaging in your own private little doctrinal missile exchange)?

No. You don't live by reacting to the enemy or to those used by the enemy or by that which is of the enemy. You don't live by reacting to all the negative things. And although it's good to be aware of it, you don't dwell on the evil (even Christ told us to be as wise as serpents, but as harmless as doves).

Instead, you focus on the truth. The good. And you move forward in God and in the good.

You go on serving God. You go on ministering for God. You go on bearing fruit for God.

You see, you fight spiritual things with the Spirit. And the spirit of God is love. Love unites. Fear divides.

Instead of metaphorically flogging that person, you love the hell out of them -- literally.

[Mark]

"For example, as I observe the online discussions, posts and podcasts from "The Calling and Election NOW Crowd", I'm amazed by peoples' eagerness to embrace new doctrines which have no scriptural basis in fact. Instead of disregarding the non-canonized teachings or simply placing them on a shelf, they encircle these mysteries with open hearts and outstretched hands.

...All the while, weightier matters- like losing oneself and developing lives of charity- go unmentioned or barely acknowledged at all."

Man have I seen this happen over and over again. I witnessed this first hand with the Harmston disciples who broke from the church and formed their own. They immersed themselves in calling and election type materials and the like to the exclusion of most anything else. The weightier matters like developing charity and pure acts of service to their brothers and sisters became an afterthought. They had no more time to really serve in the church or do their home teaching and all those other meanial simplistic things. Godhood was their destiny and all focus was on that guarantee from Diety that was coming their way sooner rather than later. You know "the fastest way..." In fact they chided and mocked the Brethren for not teaching all the meat like "mysteries" but continuing to hammer on the milk like basics of the gospel. I have observed this with many Snuffer advocates as well as some members of this forum that will go unnamed. I have also seen the prevalence of false spirits that are more than willing to accommodate anyone with supernatural and tantalizing visits and experiences. They are very good imitators. Many caught up in their deceitful methods fail to even recognize the differences until they are to far down that road and pride keeps them from turning back.

[diligently seeking]

This is exactly what we were taught and encouraged to do in GC. Serve out of love as guided by revelation. You are considering revelatory experiences as the dynamite experience that creates a big bang. I think what is being taught is that the spirit of Revelation, which is the testimony of Christ which is to love him, by serving him, not by wanting him to serve you through having your big experience. The little things are the big things.

Rand, unless we have actual experiences with the divine, where we are tutored and taught by God Himself, we won't have sufficient power to love, to serve, or to do any of those things. I agree that service is good, but, I've served people over and over again in my life and just serving, by itself, did not bring about lasting results. It often brought about frustrations, resentment, and a person who was worn out physically and spiritually. We need Jesus, we need to know Jesus, we need to understand Jesus, and we need to experience His divine mercy, love, and grace in our lives. These experiences are what produces the faith, the hope, and power that is needed to serve. Without these experiences, without the divine presence in our life, our works are vain and amount to nothing. We are unprofitable servants.

I did the "standard Mormon works" for years and years and years, believing much like you do and much like others, and yet I was not happy, yet I struggled, yet I lived in darkness, even though I was "doing" everything a good Mormon is "supposed" to do. I now know there is a difference between me struggling to try to serve Jesus and others in the hopes that my works will somehow fill me up with love and fulfillment and me recognizing my own nothingness and the futility of my own works and then seeking for power from God and seeking to get to know Him and to know His love and thus being filled with the Spirit because my heart is broken and my spirit contrite. My faith in Jesus became unshakeable after He rescued me from death and hell, in one grand instance, years of darkness and falsehoods vanished. One experience with Jesus undid and overcame what years of struggling to "obey" the Mormon standard works didn't even phase. Yet, those years of struggle were needed so that I could finally recognize the futility of what I had been doing and then beg God for a better way and a better answer. Yeah, I'm a believer in Jesus Christ and in His power. It was He who ended up saving me and rescuing me, and none else. This isn't selfishness, this is acknowledging that I need God in my life. Benson said that is the definition of humility.

We don't have the power within ourselves to manufacture the pure love of Christ. That gift, that power, must be given to us by God. The more personal experiences that we have with God, the more our faith in Him will increase. The more we have time to "bond" because God is tutoring us, the greater our loyalty will be to Him. The more revelations we receive, the more confidence we will have that the course and the direction of our life is approved of and sanctioned by God. I love others because Jesus loved me first. No amount of obedience, effort, work on our part will produce love for God. We have to know Him, understand Him, have experiences with Him so that we can understand how He operates and how He does His work. Then we will know what to do when we interact with others, because we will know how He interacted with us. That is how we learn to love even our enemies, because we realized that at one point we were enemies to God, and despite that He loved us, saved us, rescued us, taught us, and showed us the way.

-Finrock

Finrock, thank you for your expressions. They are spot on.
From what I have observed and discerned on this forum you are a fine example of what a Saint through the atonement of Jesus Christ looks like... It is apparent that not everyone wants what the Lord admonishes us to receive. Bless you in your efforts to hold up the light and truth of Christ.

D&C 93:

...39 And that wicked one cometh and taketh away light and truth, through disobedience, from the children of men, and because of the tradition of their fathers...

[Finrock]

This is exactly what we were taught and encouraged to do in GC. Serve out of love as guided by revelation. You are considering revelatory experiences as the dynamite experience that creates a big bang. I think what is being taught is that the spirit of Revelation, which is the testimony of Christ which is to love him, by serving him, not by wanting him to serve you through having your big experience. The little things are the big things.

Rand, unless we have actual experiences with the divine, where we are tutored and taught by God Himself, we won't have sufficient power to love, to serve, or to do any of those things. I agree that service is good, but, I've served people over and over again in my life and just serving, by itself, did not bring about lasting results. It often brought about frustrations, resentment, and a person who was worn out physically and spiritually. We need Jesus, we need to know Jesus, we need to understand Jesus, and we need to experience His divine mercy, love, and grace in our lives. These experiences are what produces the faith, the hope, and power that is needed to serve. Without these experiences, without the divine presence in our life, our works are vain and amount to nothing. We are unprofitable servants.

I did the "standard Mormon works" for years and years and years, believing much like you do and much like others, and yet I was not happy, yet I struggled, yet I lived in darkness, even though I was "doing" everything a good Mormon is "supposed" to do. I now know there is a difference between me struggling to try to serve Jesus and others in the hopes that my works will somehow fill me up with love and fulfillment and me recognizing my own nothingness and the futility of my own works and then seeking for power from God and seeking to get to know Him and to know His love and thus being filled with the Spirit because my heart is broken and my spirit contrite. My faith in Jesus became unshakeable after He rescued me from death and hell, in one grand instance, years of darkness and falsehoods vanished. One experience with Jesus undid and overcame what years of struggling to "obey" the Mormon standard works didn't even phase. Yet, those years of struggle were needed so that I could finally recognize the futility of what I had been doing and then beg God for a better way and a better answer. Yeah, I'm a believer in Jesus Christ and in His power. It was He who ended up saving me and rescuing me, and none else. This isn't selfishness, this is acknowledging that I need God in my life. Benson said that is the definition of humility.

We don't have the power within ourselves to manufacture the pure love of Christ. That gift, that power, must be given to us by God. The more personal experiences that we have with God, the more our faith in Him will increase. The more we have time to "bond" because God is tutoring us, the greater our loyalty will be to Him. The more revelations we receive, the more confidence we will have that the course and the direction of our life is approved of and sanctioned by God. I love others because Jesus loved me first. No amount of obedience, effort, work on our part will produce love for God. We have to know Him, understand Him, have experiences with Him so that we can understand how He operates and how He does His work. Then we will know what to do when we interact with others, because we will know how He interacted with us. That is how we learn to love even our enemies, because we realized that at one point we were enemies to God, and despite that He loved us, saved us, rescued us, taught us, and showed us the way.

-Finrock

Finrock, thank you for your expressions. They are spot on.
From what I have observed and discerned on this forum you are a fine example of what a Saint through the atonement of Jesus Christ looks like... It is apparent that not everyone wants what the Lord admonishes us to receive. Bless you in your efforts to hold up the light and truth of Christ.

D&C 93:

...39 And that wicked one cometh and taketh away light and truth, through disobedience, from the children of men, and because of the tradition of their fathers...

Thanks, but, before you go too far, let me just remind you and everyone else that I'm a hypocrite and I know it. I'm not a good example for anyone. I will disappoint you!

Since I've been born again I have realized that only by having the love of God in my heart can I live. Although I want to do and be good, after being born again, I am not perfect. In fact, I am terribly flawed and would you know all of my flaws you would likely think I were a fraud and doubt that God has every had anything to do with me, and, yet He has been good to me and has rescued me and saved me and continues to bless me even to this day in ways that I know that I don't deserve.

-Finrock

[diligently seeking]

This is exactly what we were taught and encouraged to do in GC. Serve out of love as guided by revelation. You are considering revelatory experiences as the dynamite experience that creates a big bang. I think what is being taught is that the spirit of Revelation, which is the testimony of Christ which is to love him, by serving him, not by wanting him to serve you through having your big experience. The little things are the big things.

Rand, unless we have actual experiences with the divine, where we are tutored and taught by God Himself, we won't have sufficient power to love, to serve, or to do any of those things. I agree that service is good, but, I've served people over and over again in my life and just serving, by itself, did not bring about lasting results. It often brought about frustrations, resentment, and a person who was worn out physically and spiritually. We need Jesus, we need to know Jesus, we need to understand Jesus, and we need to experience His divine mercy, love, and grace in our lives. These experiences are what produces the faith, the hope, and power that is needed to serve. Without these experiences, without the divine presence in our life, our works are vain and amount to nothing. We are unprofitable servants.

I did the "standard Mormon works" for years and years and years, believing much like you do and much like others, and yet I was not happy, yet I struggled, yet I lived in darkness, even though I was "doing" everything a good Mormon is "supposed" to do. I now know there is a difference between me struggling to try to serve Jesus and others in the hopes that my works will somehow fill me up with love and fulfillment and me recognizing my own nothingness and the futility of my own works and then seeking for power from God and seeking to get to know Him and to know His love and thus being filled with the Spirit because my heart is broken and my spirit contrite. My faith in Jesus became unshakeable after He rescued me from death and hell, in one grand instance, years of darkness and falsehoods vanished. One experience with Jesus undid and overcame what years of struggling to "obey" the Mormon standard works didn't even phase. Yet, those years of struggle were needed so that I could finally recognize the futility of what I had been doing and then beg God for a better way and a better answer. Yeah, I'm a believer in Jesus Christ and in His power. It was He who ended up saving me and rescuing me, and none else. This isn't selfishness, this is acknowledging that I need God in my life. Benson said that is the definition of humility.

We don't have the power within ourselves to manufacture the pure love of Christ. That gift, that power, must be given to us by God. The more personal experiences that we have with God, the more our faith in Him will increase. The more we have time to "bond" because God is tutoring us, the greater our loyalty will be to Him. The more revelations we receive, the more confidence we will have that the course and the direction of our life is approved of and sanctioned by God. I love others because Jesus loved me first. No amount of obedience, effort, work on our part will produce love for God. We have to know Him, understand Him, have experiences with Him so that we can understand how He operates and how He does His work. Then we will know what to do when we interact with others, because we will know how He interacted with us. That is how we learn to love even our enemies, because we realized that at one point we were enemies to God, and despite that He loved us, saved us, rescued us, taught us, and showed us the way.

-Finrock

Finrock, thank you for your expressions. They are spot on.
From what I have observed and discerned on this forum you are a fine example of what a Saint through the atonement of Jesus Christ looks like... It is apparent that not everyone wants what the Lord admonishes us to receive. Bless you in your efforts to hold up the light and truth of Christ.

D&C 93:

...39 And that wicked one cometh and taketh away light and truth, through disobedience, from the children of men, and because of the tradition of their fathers...

Thanks, but, before you go too far, let me just remind you and everyone else that I'm a hypocrite and I know it. I'm not a good example for anyone. I will disappoint you!

Since I've been born again I have realized that only by having the love of God in my heart can I live. Although I want to do and be good, after being born again, I am not perfect. In fact, I am terribly flawed and would you know all of my flaws you would likely think I were a fraud and doubt that God has every had anything to do with me, and, yet He has been good to me and has rescued me and saved me and continues to bless me even to this day in ways that I know that I don't deserve.

-Finrock

Yep those who have been "illuminated by the light of the everlasting word" know all the more their nothingness and their great need to continuously be nourished and protected by Christ. Kind of like this fella:


15 And upon these I write the things of my soul, and many of the scriptures which are engraven upon the plates of brass. For my soul delighteth in the scriptures, and my heart pondereth them, and writeth them for the learning and the profit of my children.
16 Behold, my soul delighteth in the things of the Lord; and my heart pondereth continually upon the things which I have seen and heard.
17 Nevertheless, notwithstanding the great goodness of the Lord, in showing me his great and marvelous works, my heart exclaimeth: O wretched man that I am! Yea, my heart sorroweth because of my flesh; my soul grieveth because of mine iniquities.
18 I am encompassed about, because of the temptations and the sins which do so easily beset me.
19 And when I desire to rejoice, my heart groaneth because of my sins; nevertheless, I know in whom I have trusted.
20 My God hath been my support; he hath led me through mine afflictions in the wilderness; and he hath preserved me upon the waters of the great deep.
21 He hath filled me with his love, even unto the consuming of my flesh.
22 He hath confounded mine enemies, unto the causing of them to quake before me.
23 Behold, he hath heard my cry by day, and he hath given me knowledge by visions in the night-time.
24 And by day have I waxed bold in mighty prayer before him; yea, my voice have I sent up on high; and angels came down and ministered unto me.
25 And upon the wings of his Spirit hath my body been carried away upon exceedingly high mountains. And mine eyes have beheld great things, yea, even too great for man; therefore I was bidden that I should not write them.
26 O then, if I have seen so great things, if the Lord in his condescension unto the children of men hath visited men in so much mercy, why should my heart weep and my soul linger in the valley of sorrow, and my flesh waste away, and my strength slacken, because of mine afflictions?
27 And why should I yield to sin, because of my flesh? Yea, why should I give way to temptations, that the evil one have place in my heart to destroy my peace and afflict my soul? Why am I angry because of mine enemy?
28 Awake, my soul! No longer droop in sin. Rejoice, O my heart, and give place no more for the enemy of my soul.
29 Do not anger again because of mine enemies. Do not slacken my strength because of mine afflictions.
30 Rejoice, O my heart, and cry unto the Lord, and say: O Lord, I will praise thee forever; yea, my soul will rejoice in thee, my God, and the rock of my salvation.
31 O Lord, wilt thou redeem my soul? Wilt thou deliver me out of the hands of mine enemies? Wilt thou make me that I may shake at the appearance of sin?
32 May the gates of hell be shut continually before me, because that my heart is broken and my spirit is contrite! O Lord, wilt thou not shut the gates of thy righteousness before me, that I may walk in the path of the low valley, that I may be strict in the plain road!
33 O Lord, wilt thou encircle me around in the robe of thy righteousness! O Lord, wilt thou make a way for mine escape before mine enemies! Wilt thou make my path straight before me! Wilt thou not place a stumbling block in my way—but that thou wouldst clear my way before me, and hedge not up my way, but the ways of mine enemy.
34 O Lord, I have trusted in thee, and I will trust in thee forever. I will not put my trust in the arm of flesh; for I know that cursed is he that putteth his trust in the arm of flesh. Yea, cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or maketh flesh his arm.
35 Yea, I know that God will give liberally to him that asketh. Yea, my God will give me, if I ask not amiss; therefore I will lift up my voice unto thee; yea, I will cry unto thee, my God, the rock of my righteousness. Behold, my voice shall forever ascend up unto thee, my rock and mine everlasting God. Amen.

[Zathura]

This is exactly what we were taught and encouraged to do in GC. Serve out of love as guided by revelation. You are considering revelatory experiences as the dynamite experience that creates a big bang. I think what is being taught is that the spirit of Revelation, which is the testimony of Christ which is to love him, by serving him, not by wanting him to serve you through having your big experience. The little things are the big things.

DrTanner, this post is an example of what I mean.

"we don't need "dyamite", big experiences. "Revelation" is just small stuff."

I don't mean to condescend or mock, I just don't agree with this at all.
Teachings, like the one in the article in the OP(Yes, I already established that I agree with you in saying that the KEY WORD is PRIORITY. I think the author wants people to have these experiences. I just don't think that's what the majoriy of people get out of such articles), have resulted in the General Mormon population believeing stuff like this. That we don't ever need spiritual experiences, just tiny small warm feelings here and there. "Revelation isn't big, it's only the still small voice".
You need only read the scriptures. Why on earth are they chalk full of "dynamite" experiences if few will have them , and few are supposed to have them, and we are "looking beyond the mark" if we seek them?


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All I see is this:
Moroni 7:
35 And now, my beloved brethren, if this be the case that these things are true which I have spoken unto you, and God will show unto you, with power and great glory at the last day, that they are true, and if they are true has the day of miracles ceased?

36 Or have angels ceased to appear unto the children of men? Or has he withheld the power of the Holy Ghost from them(the POWER of the Holy Ghost, it's not just warm feelgoods)? Or will he, so long as time shall last, or the earth shall stand, or there shall be one man upon the face thereof to be saved?

37 Behold I say unto you, Nay; for it is by faith that miracles are wrought; and it is by faith that angels appear and minister unto men; wherefore, if these things have ceased wo be unto the children of men, for it is because of unbelief, and all is vain.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And this:
Moroni 10:
9 For behold, to one is given by the Spirit of God, that he may teach the word of wisdom;

10 And to another, that he may teach the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

11 And to another, exceedingly great faith; and to another, the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

12 And again, to another, that he may work mighty miracles;

13 And again, to another, that he may prophesy concerning all things;

14 And again, to another, the beholding of angels and ministering spirits;

15 And again, to another, all kinds of tongues;

16 And again, to another, the interpretation of languages and of divers kinds of tongues.

17 And all these gifts come by the Spirit of Christ; and they come unto every man severally, according as he will.

18 And I would exhort you, my beloved brethren, that ye remember that every good gift cometh of Christ.

19 And I would exhort you, my beloved brethren, that ye remember that he is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and that all these gifts of which I have spoken, which are spiritual, never will be done away, even as long as the world shall stand, only according to the unbelief of the children of men.
...
24 And now I speak unto all the ends of the earth—that if the day cometh that the power and gifts of God shall be done away among you, it shall be because of unbelief.

Moroni says if Angels no longer appear it's because of unbelief, yet countless members have told me it's ACTUALLY because the brethren are our messengers now. It's ACTUALLY just God's will, that's why nobody sees angels. It's ACTUALLY because "revelation" is just the "small stuff". The "Small stuff is big".

Moroni couldn't be more clear.
IF these gifts("dynamite", angels, powerful manifestation, healing) do not happen.
THEN it's because of unbelief.
Period.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have no problem with you, and others, seeking to help others by WARNING them of the possible dangers they may seek. In fact I applaud you for doing so
Here's the problem I see. This is POUNDED into LDS minds over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over etc. etc.
They are not urged to seek these things, which should be sought and obtained, for their own salvation and the benefit of those they may serve and love.

The result is that so many are afraid to GO BEYOND THE MARK that it can cause them to FALL SHORT.

[Finrock]

This is exactly what we were taught and encouraged to do in GC. Serve out of love as guided by revelation. You are considering revelatory experiences as the dynamite experience that creates a big bang. I think what is being taught is that the spirit of Revelation, which is the testimony of Christ which is to love him, by serving him, not by wanting him to serve you through having your big experience. The little things are the big things.

DrTanner, this post is an example of what I mean.

"we don't need "dyamite", big experiences. "Revelation" is just small stuff."

I don't mean to condescend or mock, I just don't agree with this at all.
Teachings, like the one in the article in the OP(Yes, I already established that I agree with you in saying that the KEY WORD is PRIORITY. I think the author wants people to have these experiences. I just don't think that's what the majoriy of people get out of such articles), have resulted in the General Mormon population believeing stuff like this. That we don't ever need spiritual experiences, just tiny small warm feelings here and there. "Revelation isn't big, it's only the still small voice".
You need only read the scriptures. Why on earth are they chalk full of "dynamite" experiences if few will have them , and few are supposed to have them, and we are "looking beyond the mark" if we seek them?


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All I see is this:
Moroni 7:
35 And now, my beloved brethren, if this be the case that these things are true which I have spoken unto you, and God will show unto you, with power and great glory at the last day, that they are true, and if they are true has the day of miracles ceased?

36 Or have angels ceased to appear unto the children of men? Or has he withheld the power of the Holy Ghost from them(the POWER of the Holy Ghost, it's not just warm feelgoods)? Or will he, so long as time shall last, or the earth shall stand, or there shall be one man upon the face thereof to be saved?

37 Behold I say unto you, Nay; for it is by faith that miracles are wrought; and it is by faith that angels appear and minister unto men; wherefore, if these things have ceased wo be unto the children of men, for it is because of unbelief, and all is vain.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And this:
Moroni 10:
9 For behold, to one is given by the Spirit of God, that he may teach the word of wisdom;

10 And to another, that he may teach the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

11 And to another, exceedingly great faith; and to another, the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

12 And again, to another, that he may work mighty miracles;

13 And again, to another, that he may prophesy concerning all things;

14 And again, to another, the beholding of angels and ministering spirits;

15 And again, to another, all kinds of tongues;

16 And again, to another, the interpretation of languages and of divers kinds of tongues.

17 And all these gifts come by the Spirit of Christ; and they come unto every man severally, according as he will.

18 And I would exhort you, my beloved brethren, that ye remember that every good gift cometh of Christ.

19 And I would exhort you, my beloved brethren, that ye remember that he is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and that all these gifts of which I have spoken, which are spiritual, never will be done away, even as long as the world shall stand, only according to the unbelief of the children of men.
...
24 And now I speak unto all the ends of the earth—that if the day cometh that the power and gifts of God shall be done away among you, it shall be because of unbelief.

Moroni says if Angels no longer appear it's because of unbelief, yet countless members have told me it's ACTUALLY because the brethren are our messengers now. It's ACTUALLY just God's will, that's why nobody sees angels. It's ACTUALLY because "revelation" is just the "small stuff". The "Small stuff is big".

Moroni couldn't be more clear.
IF these gifts("dynamite", angels, powerful manifestation, healing) do not happen.
THEN it's because of unbelief.
Period.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have no problem with you, and others, seeking to help others by WARNING them of the possible dangers they may seek. In fact I applaud you for doing so
Here's the problem I see. This is POUNDED into LDS minds over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over etc. etc.
They are not urged to seek these things, which should be sought and obtained, for their own salvation and the benefit of those they may serve and love.

The result is that so many are afraid to GO BEYOND THE MARK that it can cause them to FALL SHORT.

Its kinda like this: Before I became a father if someone would have asked me do I know what love is, I would have said yes. Before I was a father I really believed that I understood love. Then, I became a father, and I came to the realization that before that moment, I hadn't really know what love was at all or I actually had a relatively shallow understanding of love. People can only speak to what they've experienced.

Some people don't know that in the feast that is available to them there is more than just crumbs, crackers, and bread. Some people might understand that there is more than just crackers, but they think its for the "bigwigs" and not for them. Or, some are afraid to go sit at the table with the "bigwigs" because all the different food seems strange to them or they are afraid what their friends might think or for who knows what reason. Truth is that the feast is for all and all are invited to come sit at the table and to enjoy all that there is to eat and to partake. The Host doesn't want it any other way and prepared the feast specifically so that all could partake.

-Finrock

[diligently seeking]

First verse right out of the gates in the book from the man who taught to liken all scriptures unto themselves / partake of the feast:


1 I, Nephi, having been born of goodly parents, therefore I was taught somewhat in all the learning of my father; and having seen many afflictions in the course of my days, nevertheless, having been highly favored of the Lord in all my days; yea, having had a great knowledge of the goodness and the mysteries of God, therefore I make a record of my proceedings in my days.

And then amongst other validating expressions advocating seeking a greater portion of God's word there is this ALL very close together in the beginning of the book of books:

1nephi 2:

16 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, being exceedingly young, nevertheless being large in stature, and also having great desires to know of the mysteries of God, wherefore, I did cry unto the Lord; and behold he did visit me, and did soften my heart that I did believe all the words which had been spoken by my father; wherefore, I did not rebel against him like unto my brothers.

1nephi 10:

17 And it came to pass after I, Nephi, having heard all the words of my father, concerning the things which he saw in a vision, and also the things which he spake by the power of the Holy Ghost, which power he received by faith on the Son of God—and the Son of God was the Messiah who should come—I, Nephi, was desirous also that I might see, and hear, and know of these things, by the power of the Holy Ghost, which is the gift of God unto all those who diligently seek him, as well in times of old as in the time that he should manifest himself unto the children of men.
18 For he is the same yesterday, today, and forever; and the way is prepared for all men from the foundation of the world, if it so be that they repent and come unto him.
19 For he that diligently seeketh shall find; and the mysteries of God shall be unfolded unto them, by the power of the Holy Ghost, as well in these times as in times of old, and as well in times of old as in times to come; wherefore, the course of the Lord is one eternal round.
20 Therefore remember, O man, for all thy doings thou shalt be brought into judgment.
21 Wherefore, if ye have sought to do wickedly in the days of your probation, then ye are found unclean before the judgment-seat of God; and no unclean thing can dwell with God; wherefore, ye must be cast off forever.
22 And the Holy Ghost giveth authority that I should speak these things, and deny them not.

[Rand]

This is exactly what we were taught and encouraged to do in GC. Serve out of love as guided by revelation. You are considering revelatory experiences as the dynamite experience that creates a big bang. I think what is being taught is that the spirit of Revelation, which is the testimony of Christ which is to love him, by serving him, not by wanting him to serve you through having your big experience. The little things are the big things.

Rand, unless we have actual experiences with the divine, where we are tutored and taught by God Himself
-Finrock

Finrock, is the Holy Ghost God? Can you experience an event with any other member of the Godhead without the Holy Ghost present? You are stuck on the sensational. A visit from the Savior is an amazing experience, but, you need to put your boots back on and go to work afterward again, and trust the Holy Ghost, who is a member of the Godhead, and a God by the way, to lead you and to guide you with the still small voice, just like Elijah.

[Juliet]

This is exactly what we were taught and encouraged to do in GC. Serve out of love as guided by revelation. You are considering revelatory experiences as the dynamite experience that creates a big bang. I think what is being taught is that the spirit of Revelation, which is the testimony of Christ which is to love him, by serving him, not by wanting him to serve you through having your big experience. The little things are the big things.

DrTanner, this post is an example of what I mean.

"we don't need "dyamite", big experiences. "Revelation" is just small stuff."

I don't mean to condescend or mock, I just don't agree with this at all.
Teachings, like the one in the article in the OP(Yes, I already established that I agree with you in saying that the KEY WORD is PRIORITY. I think the author wants people to have these experiences. I just don't think that's what the majoriy of people get out of such articles), have resulted in the General Mormon population believeing stuff like this. That we don't ever need spiritual experiences, just tiny small warm feelings here and there. "Revelation isn't big, it's only the still small voice".
You need only read the scriptures. Why on earth are they chalk full of "dynamite" experiences if few will have them , and few are supposed to have them, and we are "looking beyond the mark" if we seek them?


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All I see is this:
Moroni 7:
35 And now, my beloved brethren, if this be the case that these things are true which I have spoken unto you, and God will show unto you, with power and great glory at the last day, that they are true, and if they are true has the day of miracles ceased?

36 Or have angels ceased to appear unto the children of men? Or has he withheld the power of the Holy Ghost from them(the POWER of the Holy Ghost, it's not just warm feelgoods)? Or will he, so long as time shall last, or the earth shall stand, or there shall be one man upon the face thereof to be saved?

37 Behold I say unto you, Nay; for it is by faith that miracles are wrought; and it is by faith that angels appear and minister unto men; wherefore, if these things have ceased wo be unto the children of men, for it is because of unbelief, and all is vain.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And this:
Moroni 10:
9 For behold, to one is given by the Spirit of God, that he may teach the word of wisdom;

10 And to another, that he may teach the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

11 And to another, exceedingly great faith; and to another, the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

12 And again, to another, that he may work mighty miracles;

13 And again, to another, that he may prophesy concerning all things;

14 And again, to another, the beholding of angels and ministering spirits;

15 And again, to another, all kinds of tongues;

16 And again, to another, the interpretation of languages and of divers kinds of tongues.

17 And all these gifts come by the Spirit of Christ; and they come unto every man severally, according as he will.

18 And I would exhort you, my beloved brethren, that ye remember that every good gift cometh of Christ.

19 And I would exhort you, my beloved brethren, that ye remember that he is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and that all these gifts of which I have spoken, which are spiritual, never will be done away, even as long as the world shall stand, only according to the unbelief of the children of men.
...
24 And now I speak unto all the ends of the earth—that if the day cometh that the power and gifts of God shall be done away among you, it shall be because of unbelief.

Moroni says if Angels no longer appear it's because of unbelief, yet countless members have told me it's ACTUALLY because the brethren are our messengers now. It's ACTUALLY just God's will, that's why nobody sees angels. It's ACTUALLY because "revelation" is just the "small stuff". The "Small stuff is big".

Moroni couldn't be more clear.
IF these gifts("dynamite", angels, powerful manifestation, healing) do not happen.
THEN it's because of unbelief.
Period.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have no problem with you, and others, seeking to help others by WARNING them of the possible dangers they may seek. In fact I applaud you for doing so
Here's the problem I see. This is POUNDED into LDS minds over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over etc. etc.
They are not urged to seek these things, which should be sought and obtained, for their own salvation and the benefit of those they may serve and love.

The result is that so many are afraid to GO BEYOND THE MARK that it can cause them to FALL SHORT.

Its kinda like this: Before I became a father if someone would have asked me do I know what love is, I would have said yes. Before I was a father I really believed that I understood love. Then, I became a father, and I came to the realization that before that moment, I hadn't really know what love was at all or I actually had a relatively shallow understanding of love. People can only speak to what they've experienced.

Some people don't know that in the feast that is available to them there is more than just crumbs, crackers, and bread. Some people might understand that there is more than just crackers, but they think its for the "bigwigs" and not for them. Or, some are afraid to go sit at the table with the "bigwigs" because all the different food seems strange to them or they are afraid what their friends might think or for who knows what reason. Truth is that the feast is for all and all are invited to come sit at the table and to enjoy all that there is to eat and to partake. The Host doesn't want it any other way and prepared the feast specifically so that all could partake.

-Finrock

One night I was praying over my long held feelings of unworthiness. I said, look, God, it's like there is this big buffet with all this food, but I am not allowed to eat it. Other people can eat it, but I can't. Why can't I eat it too?

That night I felt prompted to fall asleep with my arm to the square. I then woke up in sleep paralysis, and a demon was holding my body so I couldn't talk or move. It moved into my face and grinned like the Grinch from How the Grinch stole Christmas. I told it to depart and it did.

That was a huge breakthrough because feeling like I didn't deserve to be with God was not a feeling that was coming from God. When I finally realized that after years of feelings of inferiority, it set me free.

[diligently seeking]

This is exactly what we were taught and encouraged to do in GC. Serve out of love as guided by revelation. You are considering revelatory experiences as the dynamite experience that creates a big bang. I think what is being taught is that the spirit of Revelation, which is the testimony of Christ which is to love him, by serving him, not by wanting him to serve you through having your big experience. The little things are the big things.

DrTanner, this post is an example of what I mean.

"we don't need "dyamite", big experiences. "Revelation" is just small stuff."

I don't mean to condescend or mock, I just don't agree with this at all.
Teachings, like the one in the article in the OP(Yes, I already established that I agree with you in saying that the KEY WORD is PRIORITY. I think the author wants people to have these experiences. I just don't think that's what the majoriy of people get out of such articles), have resulted in the General Mormon population believeing stuff like this. That we don't ever need spiritual experiences, just tiny small warm feelings here and there. "Revelation isn't big, it's only the still small voice".
You need only read the scriptures. Why on earth are they chalk full of "dynamite" experiences if few will have them , and few are supposed to have them, and we are "looking beyond the mark" if we seek them?


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All I see is this:
Moroni 7:
35 And now, my beloved brethren, if this be the case that these things are true which I have spoken unto you, and God will show unto you, with power and great glory at the last day, that they are true, and if they are true has the day of miracles ceased?

36 Or have angels ceased to appear unto the children of men? Or has he withheld the power of the Holy Ghost from them(the POWER of the Holy Ghost, it's not just warm feelgoods)? Or will he, so long as time shall last, or the earth shall stand, or there shall be one man upon the face thereof to be saved?

37 Behold I say unto you, Nay; for it is by faith that miracles are wrought; and it is by faith that angels appear and minister unto men; wherefore, if these things have ceased wo be unto the children of men, for it is because of unbelief, and all is vain.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And this:
Moroni 10:
9 For behold, to one is given by the Spirit of God, that he may teach the word of wisdom;

10 And to another, that he may teach the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

11 And to another, exceedingly great faith; and to another, the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

12 And again, to another, that he may work mighty miracles;

13 And again, to another, that he may prophesy concerning all things;

14 And again, to another, the beholding of angels and ministering spirits;

15 And again, to another, all kinds of tongues;

16 And again, to another, the interpretation of languages and of divers kinds of tongues.

17 And all these gifts come by the Spirit of Christ; and they come unto every man severally, according as he will.

18 And I would exhort you, my beloved brethren, that ye remember that every good gift cometh of Christ.

19 And I would exhort you, my beloved brethren, that ye remember that he is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and that all these gifts of which I have spoken, which are spiritual, never will be done away, even as long as the world shall stand, only according to the unbelief of the children of men.
...
24 And now I speak unto all the ends of the earth—that if the day cometh that the power and gifts of God shall be done away among you, it shall be because of unbelief.

Moroni says if Angels no longer appear it's because of unbelief, yet countless members have told me it's ACTUALLY because the brethren are our messengers now. It's ACTUALLY just God's will, that's why nobody sees angels. It's ACTUALLY because "revelation" is just the "small stuff". The "Small stuff is big".

Moroni couldn't be more clear.
IF these gifts("dynamite", angels, powerful manifestation, healing) do not happen.
THEN it's because of unbelief.
Period.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have no problem with you, and others, seeking to help others by WARNING them of the possible dangers they may seek. In fact I applaud you for doing so
Here's the problem I see. This is POUNDED into LDS minds over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over etc. etc.
They are not urged to seek these things, which should be sought and obtained, for their own salvation and the benefit of those they may serve and love.

The result is that so many are afraid to GO BEYOND THE MARK that it can cause them to FALL SHORT.

Its kinda like this: Before I became a father if someone would have asked me do I know what love is, I would have said yes. Before I was a father I really believed that I understood love. Then, I became a father, and I came to the realization that before that moment, I hadn't really know what love was at all or I actually had a relatively shallow understanding of love. People can only speak to what they've experienced.

Some people don't know that in the feast that is available to them there is more than just crumbs, crackers, and bread. Some people might understand that there is more than just crackers, but they think its for the "bigwigs" and not for them. Or, some are afraid to go sit at the table with the "bigwigs" because all the different food seems strange to them or they are afraid what their friends might think or for who knows what reason. Truth is that the feast is for all and all are invited to come sit at the table and to enjoy all that there is to eat and to partake. The Host doesn't want it any other way and prepared the feast specifically so that all could partake.

-Finrock

2nephi 9

50 Come, my brethren, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters; and he that hath no money, come buy and eat; yea, come buy wine and milk without money and without price.
51 Wherefore, do not spend money for that which is of no worth, nor your labor for that which cannot satisfy. Hearken diligently unto me, and remember the words which I have spoken; and come unto the Holy One of Israel, and feast upon that which perisheth not, neither can be corrupted, and let your soul delight in fatness.
52 Behold, my beloved brethren, remember the words of your God; pray unto him continually by day, and give thanks unto his holy name by night. Let your hearts rejoice

[Finrock]

This is exactly what we were taught and encouraged to do in GC. Serve out of love as guided by revelation. You are considering revelatory experiences as the dynamite experience that creates a big bang. I think what is being taught is that the spirit of Revelation, which is the testimony of Christ which is to love him, by serving him, not by wanting him to serve you through having your big experience. The little things are the big things.

Rand, unless we have actual experiences with the divine, where we are tutored and taught by God Himself
-Finrock

Finrock, is the Holy Ghost God? Can you experience an event with any other member of the Godhead without the Holy Ghost present? You are stuck on the sensational. A visit from the Savior is an amazing experience, but, you need to put your boots back on and go to work afterward again, and trust the Holy Ghost, who is a member of the Godhead, and a God by the way, to lead you and to guide you with the still small voice, just like Elijah.

Your post is evidence that you do not know or understand what it is that I'm saying. If you did understand then you wouldn't be saying that "I'm stuck" on the sensational. In fact, I'm confident in saying that you aren't even trying to understand. There was so much more that was posted than my paraphrase of President Nelson. It has nothing to do with "the sensational" and I wasn't even talking about a visit with the Savior, per se. The thing is is that I've been where you are at. You will continue to believe as you do until God shows you otherwise.

-Finrock

[Mark]

This is exactly what we were taught and encouraged to do in GC. Serve out of love as guided by revelation. You are considering revelatory experiences as the dynamite experience that creates a big bang. I think what is being taught is that the spirit of Revelation, which is the testimony of Christ which is to love him, by serving him, not by wanting him to serve you through having your big experience. The little things are the big things.

Rand, unless we have actual experiences with the divine, where we are tutored and taught by God Himself
-Finrock

Finrock, is the Holy Ghost God? Can you experience an event with any other member of the Godhead without the Holy Ghost present? You are stuck on the sensational. A visit from the Savior is an amazing experience, but, you need to put your boots back on and go to work afterward again, and trust the Holy Ghost, who is a member of the Godhead, and a God by the way, to lead you and to guide you with the still small voice, just like Elijah.

Your post is evidence that you do not know or understand what it is that I'm saying. If you did understand then you wouldn't be saying that "I'm stuck" on the sensational. It has nothing to do with "the sensational". The thing is is that I've been where you are at. You will continue to believe as you do until God shows you otherwise.

-Finrock

You are sounding more and more like Amonhi & Co. all the time. Have they put you on retainer to keep the engine running here Finrock? It must be so frustrating talking to the less spiritually advanced all the time who are just stuck where you used to be. How do you do it?

[Finrock]

Rand, unless we have actual experiences with the divine, where we are tutored and taught by God Himself
-Finrock

Finrock, is the Holy Ghost God? Can you experience an event with any other member of the Godhead without the Holy Ghost present? You are stuck on the sensational. A visit from the Savior is an amazing experience, but, you need to put your boots back on and go to work afterward again, and trust the Holy Ghost, who is a member of the Godhead, and a God by the way, to lead you and to guide you with the still small voice, just like Elijah.

Your post is evidence that you do not know or understand what it is that I'm saying. If you did understand then you wouldn't be saying that "I'm stuck" on the sensational. It has nothing to do with "the sensational". The thing is is that I've been where you are at. You will continue to believe as you do until God shows you otherwise.

-Finrock

You are sounding more and more like Amonhi & Co. all the time. Have they put you on retainer to keep the engine running here Finrock? It must be so frustrating talking to the less spiritually advanced all the time who are just stuck where you used to be. How do you do it?

Mark,

Just another ad hominem... *yawn*



-Finrock

[Zathura]

This is exactly what we were taught and encouraged to do in GC. Serve out of love as guided by revelation. You are considering revelatory experiences as the dynamite experience that creates a big bang. I think what is being taught is that the spirit of Revelation, which is the testimony of Christ which is to love him, by serving him, not by wanting him to serve you through having your big experience. The little things are the big things.

Rand, unless we have actual experiences with the divine, where we are tutored and taught by God Himself
-Finrock

Finrock, is the Holy Ghost God? Can you experience an event with any other member of the Godhead without the Holy Ghost present? You are stuck on the sensational. A visit from the Savior is an amazing experience, but, you need to put your boots back on and go to work afterward again, and trust the Holy Ghost, who is a member of the Godhead, and a God by the way, to lead you and to guide you with the still small voice, just like Elijah.

At no point have Finrock and I, or anyone else talked of seeing Jesus Christ. We have been talking about the Holy Ghost , and the manifestations that occur by the power of the Holy Ghost.

Still though, a decision to believe that someone is stuck on “sensational” and that you don’t need to seek “sensational” experiences with God(again, not talking about seeing God. The greatest gift is the Holy Ghost), you only hamstring yourself. That’s your choice, and you’re free to do so.

[Finrock]

This is exactly what we were taught and encouraged to do in GC. Serve out of love as guided by revelation. You are considering revelatory experiences as the dynamite experience that creates a big bang. I think what is being taught is that the spirit of Revelation, which is the testimony of Christ which is to love him, by serving him, not by wanting him to serve you through having your big experience. The little things are the big things.

Rand, unless we have actual experiences with the divine, where we are tutored and taught by God Himself
-Finrock

Finrock, is the Holy Ghost God? Can you experience an event with any other member of the Godhead without the Holy Ghost present? You are stuck on the sensational. A visit from the Savior is an amazing experience, but, you need to put your boots back on and go to work afterward again, and trust the Holy Ghost, who is a member of the Godhead, and a God by the way, to lead you and to guide you with the still small voice, just like Elijah.

Rand, did you recognize that I was paraphrasing President Nelson in what you quoted? In case you weren't aware and to make it explicitly clear, I was paraphrasing President Nelson from his "The Price of Priesthood Power" talk from the April 2016 conference talk.

-Finrock