Discerning self centered spirituality

[drtanner]

http://ldsperfectday.blogspot.com/2018/ ... 6.html?m=1

From the article:

Here are a few examples of what some people believe today:
They believe - and get others to believe - that it's OK to prioritize your own wants (like parting the veil, "ascending" and having a one-on-one encounter with God) over and above the importance of God's priorities (to lose oneself and feed God's sheep).
They believe in acquiring priesthood authority in a manner not even remotely mentioned in our scriptures nor church history.
They teach that spiritual encounters experienced in the imagination are the same as experiencing them in the physical plane.
They tell people to dictate to the Lord that He should speed up their timetable of spiritual progression.
They honor, to near "rock star" status, mortals who claim profound spiritual gifts, yet have never manifest the fruits of them. Ever.
They esteem and follow false prophets/prophetesses (who are known to have given more than one false prophecy in the past).
They believe the words of self-declared angels, translated beings or even mortal messengers of God who then go on to contradict latter-day scripture.
They partake of mind-altering drugs, view pornography, abuse loved ones or carry on extramarital emotional or physical affairs, while saying God (or one of His angels) approves of it.
They believe they are a past/present/future significant spiritual leader.
They provide a blanket forgiveness of people's sins (as in, all of them).
They receive personal revelation, then trumpet it far and wide, assuming their personal revelation is also intended for others.
They encourage others to take their minds off the present, and to instead focus on the future.
The interesting thing isn't necessarily the wackiness of their claims; it's this:

Some of the best and brightest among us - those who know the
doctrines, scriptures, history and more better than most others -
are continually and increasingly believing these teachings.

Today, it's getting harder and harder - even among the very elect - to discern truth from error.

Why?

Why does it seem that these kinds of isolated instances aren't so isolated anymore?

For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. (Mark 13:22)

[Zathura]

This is great. It presents true dangers that people will inevitably face..


but it can cause the problem that other identical articles/ teachings can cause.
God tells us to part the veil, he tells us to seek his face. He wants us to “ascend”.

There are angels, and translated beings and it is scriptural for them to teach people.

Articles like this can push people away from those things which really are things of God, things he commanded

The part about the priesthood power can be picked at as well. There are plenty of scriptural accounts of priesthood bestowal that are different from what we do today.

I don’t want to cause a discussion on that, but I’m just pointing it out.

These are real dangers, but let’s be careful and not prevent people from following these commandments at the same time

[drtanner]

This is great. It presents true dangers that people will inevitably face..


but it can cause the problem that other identical articles/ teachings can cause.
God tells us to part the veil, he tells us to seek his face. He wants us to “ascend”.

There are angels, and translated beings and it is scriptural for them to teach people.

Articles like this can push people away from those things which really are things of God, things he commanded

The part about the priesthood power can be picked at as well. There are plenty of scriptural accounts of priesthood bestowal that are different from what we do today.

I don’t want to cause a discussion on that, but I’m just pointing it out.

These are real dangers, but let’s be careful and not prevent people from following these commandments at the same time

I think I agree with most of what you are saying here, but would you mind helping me understand what you are saying by, "things which really are things of God, and things he commanded?" I would like to make sure I am interpreting correctly what you mean.

[Finrock]

This is great. It presents true dangers that people will inevitably face..


but it can cause the problem that other identical articles/ teachings can cause.
God tells us to part the veil, he tells us to seek his face. He wants us to “ascend”.

There are angels, and translated beings and it is scriptural for them to teach people.

Articles like this can push people away from those things which really are things of God, things he commanded

The part about the priesthood power can be picked at as well. There are plenty of scriptural accounts of priesthood bestowal that are different from what we do today.

I don’t want to cause a discussion on that, but I’m just pointing it out.

These are real dangers, but let’s be careful and not prevent people from following these commandments at the same time

I think I agree with most of what you are saying here, but would you mind helping me understand what you are saying by, "things which really are things of God, and things he commanded?" I would like to make sure I am interpreting correctly what you mean.

I'm not sure what Stahura means, but here is an example that I can see:

You quoted: "that it's OK to prioritize your own wants (like parting the veil, "ascending" and having a one-on-one encounter with God) over and above the importance of God's priorities (to lose oneself and feed God's sheep)."

God has commanded us to love and to serve others AND He has also commanded us to "part the veil" and to have "one-on-one encounters" with Him (i.e., personal revelation). The quote acts like parting the veil, ascending, and having one-on-one encounters with God is not God's priority. It claims that these things that God has commended us are "selfish wants" when they aren't. They are a part of our mortal experience that God wants us to experience, and in fact, they lead to one actually beginning to feed God's sheep or to one having true charity (as opposed to doing it because they were commanded, because of duty, to appear righteous, etc.).

-Finrock

[Finrock]

Some of the things in that list are wrong, for sure, and they can cause people to go astray. But, here is another example of something that is good, that is being called evil by whoever you are quoting:

"They provide a blanket forgiveness of people's sins (as in, all of them)."

Maybe I'm not understanding what they mean here because this is pretty ambiguous and vague, however, God said that He will forgive whom He will forgive, but we are required to forgive all men.

-Finrock

[Finrock]

"They receive personal revelation, then trumpet it far and wide, assuming their personal revelation is also intended for others."

This is an interesting one. Only the person receiving the revelation can know if the Spirit has directed them to share their personal experiences/revelation. The funny thing is that in most cases this is only an issue when someone disagrees with the personal revelation. In other words, if the revelation confirms the status quo and/or validates the group think, then nobody will complain that they shouldn't be sharing their personal revelation far and wide. For instance, I received personal revelation that the Book of Mormon is true. I actually did. It was personal and for me only. Yet, I testify of this revelation quite frequently. No Mormon has ever complained to me that I shouldn't be sharing my personal revelations when I share my personal witness from the Spirit that the book is a true book from God.

-Finrock

[Finrock]

"They honor, to near "rock star" status, mortals who claim profound spiritual gifts, yet have never manifest the fruits of them. Ever."

I've subscribed to this philosophy at one point in my life as I applied this status to my priesthood leaders, especially the General Authorities and in very particular, to the Apostles. Because I fell in to this trap, I recognize it in the lives of other Mormons and I am a witness to this error quite frequently, I'm afraid. I've also seen this happening with other groups and religions. Most recently with many Denver Snuffer's followers. Yeah, we should not treat leaders like celebrities or place them on a pedestal. I'm working on not being a respecter of persons and I'm working on not esteeming one flesh above another and I'm working on honoring and respecting all people, but especially showing great honor to the least among us, who often get neglected, abused, trampled on, and yet they maintain a never dying faith and hope in Jesus Christ.

-Finrock

[Rand]

One of the greatest appeals the adversary can make to mankind, and that applies most specifically to those who have had an experience, is to tempt them to seek the extraordinary at the expense of ordinary obedience. The extraordinary experiences are wonderful, but, when focused upon can, and I may say most often do become a stumbling block of pride.
To me, you can identify those who struggle with this pride in that their experience becomes a status building tool, a tool they use over and over again to establish their dominance of opinion, righteousness or authority.
A divine manifestation means none of those things. Once we have had a mystical experience with the Lord or an angel, we should be more humble than ever, more of a servant than ever, more of a seeker after righteousness than ever, more obedience to his chosen servants than ever. But, it seems they usually choose to stand on the wall and testify of their own authority, as a by product of their transcendence.
Although Joseph had the first vision, he didn't trumpet it as his justification for teaching. He didn't even record it for many years. We should let such experiences be held close to our hearts, and let them motivate us toward greater humility and meekness and obedience than ever before, not as a platform of rebellion and personal aggrandizement.

[Finrock]

One of the greatest appeals the adversary can make to mankind, and that applies most specifically to those who have had an experience, is to tempt them to seek the extraordinary at the expense of ordinary obedience. The extraordinary experiences are wonderful, but, when focused upon can, and I may say most often do become a stumbling block of pride.
To me, you can identify those who struggle with this pride in that their experience becomes a status building tool, a tool they use over and over again to establish their dominance of opinion, righteousness or authority.
A divine manifestation means none of those things. Once we have had a mystical experience with the Lord or an angel, we should be more humble than ever, more of a servant than ever, more of a seeker after righteousness than ever, more obedience to his chosen servants than ever. But, it seems they usually choose to stand on the wall and testify of their own authority, as a by product of their transcendence.
Although Joseph had the first vision, he didn't trumpet it as his justification for teaching. He didn't even record it for many years. We should let such experiences be held close to our hearts, and let them motivate us toward greater humility and meekness and obedience than ever before, not as a platform of rebellion and personal aggrandizement.

I agree, our experiences with the divine are not a platform for rebellion against the Good and not for personal aggrandizement. However, almost every apostle in the New Testament lost their life because they wouldn't hide the light they had received under a bushel. They wouldn't deny their extraordinary experience of seeing and feeling the resurrected Savior. In the Book of Mormon, disciples of Christ boldly claimed that they had been visited by angels, they testified that God is working His miracles and His mighty works even Now. Joseph Smith didn't keep his revelations close to his vest. I don't know what you mean, but, Joseph Smith did trumpet his revelations and his experiences as his justification for teaching and for restoring what was lost.

What we need to understand is that every experience we have with the divine always starts out as extraordinary and every experience we have afterwards will be extraordinary, even if having experiences with God become ordinary (frequent, often) in our life. You can't have an "ordinary" experience with the Divine. This little light of mine, I'm gonna let it shine!

-Finrock

[Craig Johnson]

Your post is chock full of good guidance. One thing goes with another to the negative as well as to the positive. If a person is a phony, they will make silly claims which may have a basis in truth but should have been held close being spiritually precious, and if a person is for real they will teach by the Spirit and use a humble tone that you can feel in a good way and they will not throw out precious spiritual experiences into the wrong environment.
For me the scary thing about the negative ones is that they are really putting themselves in a bad position, because eventually they have to pay the piper.
And for the positive ones, humble followers of the Lord with no evil motives, they will lead us in the right direction and not abuse spiritual experiences they have had.

I.E. D&C 46:7 But ye are commanded in all things to ask of God, who giveth liberally; and that which the Spirit testifies unto you even so I would that ye should do in all holiness of heart, walking uprightly before me, considering the end of your salvation, doing all things with prayer and thanksgiving, that ye may not be seduced by evil spirits, or doctrines of devils, or the commandments of men; for some are of men, and others of devils.

8 Wherefore, beware lest ye are deceived; and that ye may not be deceived seek ye earnestly the best gifts, always remembering for what they are given;

9 For verily I say unto you, they are given for the benefit of those who love me and keep all my commandments, and him that seeketh so to do; that all may be benefited that seek or that ask of me, that ask and not for a sign THAT THEY MAY CONSUME IT UPON THEIR LUSTS. (My capitalization.)

[drtanner]

This is great. It presents true dangers that people will inevitably face..


but it can cause the problem that other identical articles/ teachings can cause.
God tells us to part the veil, he tells us to seek his face. He wants us to “ascend”.

There are angels, and translated beings and it is scriptural for them to teach people.

Articles like this can push people away from those things which really are things of God, things he commanded

The part about the priesthood power can be picked at as well. There are plenty of scriptural accounts of priesthood bestowal that are different from what we do today.

I don’t want to cause a discussion on that, but I’m just pointing it out.

These are real dangers, but let’s be careful and not prevent people from following these commandments at the same time

I think I agree with most of what you are saying here, but would you mind helping me understand what you are saying by, "things which really are things of God, and things he commanded?" I would like to make sure I am interpreting correctly what you mean.

I'm not sure what Stahura means, but here is an example that I can see:

You quoted: "that it's OK to prioritize your own wants (like parting the veil, "ascending" and having a one-on-one encounter with God) over and above the importance of God's priorities (to lose oneself and feed God's sheep)."

God has commanded us to love and to serve others AND He has also commanded us to "part the veil" and to have "one-on-one encounters" with Him (i.e., personal revelation). The quote acts like parting the veil, ascending, and having one-on-one encounters with God is not God's priority. It claims that these things that God has commended us are "selfish wants" when they aren't. They are a part of our mortal experience that God wants us to experience, and in fact, they lead to one actually beginning to feed God's sheep or to one having true charity (as opposed to doing it because they were commanded, because of duty, to appear righteous, etc.).

-Finrock

I think if you read the whole chain of articles on discernment the author clearly is in favor of us experiencing these things. I don't think priority is the right word here.

[drtanner]

"They honor, to near "rock star" status, mortals who claim profound spiritual gifts, yet have never manifest the fruits of them. Ever."

I've subscribed to this philosophy at one point in my life as I applied this status to my priesthood leaders, especially the General Authorities and in very particular, to the Apostles. Because I fell in to this trap, I recognize it in the lives of other Mormons and I am a witness to this error quite frequently, I'm afraid. I've also seen this happening with other groups and religions. Most recently with many Denver Snuffer's followers. Yeah, we should not treat leaders like celebrities or place them on a pedestal. I'm working on not being a respecter of persons and I'm working on not esteeming one flesh above another and I'm working on honoring and respecting all people, but especially showing great honor to the least among us, who often get neglected, abused, trampled on, and yet they maintain a never dying faith and hope in Jesus Christ.

-Finrock

Key word is fruits. I have met personally some individuals with "good fruit" and it is unmistakable. It is also crystal clear the fruits of many who claim but do not posses the kindness, meekness, and charity of one who actually has obtained significant spiritual blessings from God.

[drtanner]

Some of the things in that list are wrong, for sure, and they can cause people to go astray. But, here is another example of something that is good, that is being called evil by whoever you are quoting:

"They provide a blanket forgiveness of people's sins (as in, all of them)."

Maybe I'm not understanding what they mean here because this is pretty ambiguous and vague, however, God said that He will forgive whom He will forgive, but we are required to forgive all men.

-Finrock

I'm not sure I understand what he is saying here either, would be good for some clarification.

[drtanner]

"They receive personal revelation, then trumpet it far and wide, assuming their personal revelation is also intended for others."

This is an interesting one. Only the person receiving the revelation can know if the Spirit has directed them to share their personal experiences/revelation. The funny thing is that in most cases this is only an issue when someone disagrees with the personal revelation. In other words, if the revelation confirms the status quo and/or validates the group think, then nobody will complain that they shouldn't be sharing their personal revelation far and wide. For instance, I received personal revelation that the Book of Mormon is true. I actually did. It was personal and for me only. Yet, I testify of this revelation quite frequently. No Mormon has ever complained to me that I shouldn't be sharing my personal revelations when I share my personal witness from the Spirit that the book is a true book from God.

-Finrock

I can see your point, I guess it depends on what the revelation is.

[Finrock]

This is great. It presents true dangers that people will inevitably face..


but it can cause the problem that other identical articles/ teachings can cause.
God tells us to part the veil, he tells us to seek his face. He wants us to “ascend”.

There are angels, and translated beings and it is scriptural for them to teach people.

Articles like this can push people away from those things which really are things of God, things he commanded

The part about the priesthood power can be picked at as well. There are plenty of scriptural accounts of priesthood bestowal that are different from what we do today.

I don’t want to cause a discussion on that, but I’m just pointing it out.

These are real dangers, but let’s be careful and not prevent people from following these commandments at the same time

I think I agree with most of what you are saying here, but would you mind helping me understand what you are saying by, "things which really are things of God, and things he commanded?" I would like to make sure I am interpreting correctly what you mean.

I'm not sure what Stahura means, but here is an example that I can see:

You quoted: "that it's OK to prioritize your own wants (like parting the veil, "ascending" and having a one-on-one encounter with God) over and above the importance of God's priorities (to lose oneself and feed God's sheep)."

God has commanded us to love and to serve others AND He has also commanded us to "part the veil" and to have "one-on-one encounters" with Him (i.e., personal revelation). The quote acts like parting the veil, ascending, and having one-on-one encounters with God is not God's priority. It claims that these things that God has commended us are "selfish wants" when they aren't. They are a part of our mortal experience that God wants us to experience, and in fact, they lead to one actually beginning to feed God's sheep or to one having true charity (as opposed to doing it because they were commanded, because of duty, to appear righteous, etc.).

-Finrock

I think if you read the whole chain of articles on discernment the author clearly is in favor of us experiencing these things. I don't think priority is the right word here.

I haven't read the whole chain of articles so he may be in support of these things. However, it isn't just the word "priority" that is making his statement incorrect. Its the fact that he is categorizing things that God has commanded us to do with just "selfish wants". Parting the veil, one-on-one encounters, and "ascending" (not sure what he means by that but I use that word to mean something like we have been spiritually changed in a mighty way) is what God wants us to do. It is through these personal experiences that we become actually and truly converted to Christ and it is how we replace our stony hearts with a heart that is able to love, to care, and to have empathy the way God does. Its through these personal experiences that we obtain charity so that we will, in reality, lose ourselves and feed God's sheep, as opposed to doing these actions but with the incorrect motivation or desire.

-Finrock

[Mark]

One of the greatest appeals the adversary can make to mankind, and that applies most specifically to those who have had an experience, is to tempt them to seek the extraordinary at the expense of ordinary obedience. The extraordinary experiences are wonderful, but, when focused upon can, and I may say most often do become a stumbling block of pride.
To me, you can identify those who struggle with this pride in that their experience becomes a status building tool, a tool they use over and over again to establish their dominance of opinion, righteousness or authority.
A divine manifestation means none of those things. Once we have had a mystical experience with the Lord or an angel, we should be more humble than ever, more of a servant than ever, more of a seeker after righteousness than ever, more obedience to his chosen servants than ever. But, it seems they usually choose to stand on the wall and testify of their own authority, as a by product of their transcendence.
Although Joseph had the first vision, he didn't trumpet it as his justification for teaching. He didn't even record it for many years. We should let such experiences be held close to our hearts, and let them motivate us toward greater humility and meekness and obedience than ever before, not as a platform of rebellion and personal aggrandizement.

This is such an important point. I was reading an old talk by Pres. Oaks and this part stuck out:

"Visions do happen. Voices are heard from beyond the veil. I know this. But these experiences are exceptional. And those who have these great and exceptional experiences rarely speak of them publicly because we are instructed not to do so (see D&C 63:64) and because we understand that the channels of revelation will be closed if we show these things before the world.

Most of the revelation that comes to leaders and members of the Church comes by the still, small voice or by a feeling rather than by a vision or a voice that speaks specific words we can hear. I testify to the reality of that kind of revelation, which I have come to know as a familiar, even daily, experience to guide me in the work of the Lord.

Not understanding these principles of revelation, some people postpone acknowledging their testimony until they have experienced a miraculous event. They fail to realize that with most people—especially those raised in the Church—gaining a testimony is not an event but a process. That was the description of Elder Bruce R. McConkie of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, who observed: “Being born again is a gradual thing, except in a few isolated instances that are so miraculous that they get written up in the scriptures. As far as the generality of the members of the Church are concerned, we are born again by degrees, and we are born again to added light and added knowledge and added desires for righteousness as we keep the commandments” (“Jesus Christ and Him Crucified,” 1976 Devotional Speeches of the Year [1977], 399).

I know some on this board will kick back against this principle but I have seen the wisdom of what Pres. Oaks has said over years of observation. Joseph Smith counseled the 12 accordingly when he said: "Let us be faithful and silent, brethren, and if God gives you a manifestation, keep it to yourselves. . . . Do not watch for iniquity in each other, if you do you will not get an endowment, for God will not bestow it on such."92

Yet time and again people come online to anonymous forums etc to broadcast their special extraordinary spiritual experiences placing themselves in almost an elevated or transcendent category and exhort others to do likewise. Yet many of those same folks eventually seem to end up in a state of apostasy and rebellion against the church and its leadership. It happens over and over again. It has happened on this board time and again over the years.

Those Daily acts of quiet consecrated service and sacrifice in the kingdom leading to personal sanctification and its attended daily whisperings of the spirit to ones heart and mind is never good enough and often is replaced with the overriding desire for extraordinary spiritual experiences consisting of angelic visits and visions and such. It opens the door wide for false revelation and deception. It can become very dangerous to ones spiritual progression. That is one area the adversary capitalizes on most. Those special experiences should be protected and spoken of with great care and discernment. Not broadcast Willy nilly for every Tom Dick and Jane to hear. They are sacred and should be treated as such.

[Juliet]

I have wanted to have a through the veil experience very much. I have talked about it in therapy and there is a point that wanting that experience could be to fulfill a personal lack in my life. So, it is more a fantasy addiction to get away from the here and now. That to me makes a lot of sense. That doesn't mean I shouldn't continue to work toward that experience, but it means doing it for the right reasons. Because if I can't find peace now, an actual spiritual experience won't make up for the lack of the the Spirit in my day to day life.

Very good post. It is always important to look at the motive behind our spirituality.

I think the biggest fruit of the spirit is peace and joy from day to day. Service is not the end all. It is joy. We don't exist to serve, we exist to find joy. And service helps us in that endeavor. Too many people serve themselves ragged and never learned to take care of their own needs. In other words, service can also become an addiction to cover up a hole that needs to be worked on by being still and knowing God. And some people will make you serve them to take advantage of you. So it is important to be wise in all things.

I especially like the point that seeing something spiritual means it had to have an exact physical fulfillment. That isn't the way our minds work most of the time. The Holy Spirit can work through dreams to warn us of actual events, but that interpretation comes from the Holy Spirit and not because of that is seen in particular in a vision.

[Craig Johnson]

Some of the things in that list are wrong, for sure, and they can cause people to go astray. But, here is another example of something that is good, that is being called evil by whoever you are quoting:

"They provide a blanket forgiveness of people's sins (as in, all of them)."

Maybe I'm not understanding what they mean here because this is pretty ambiguous and vague, however, God said that He will forgive whom He will forgive, but we are required to forgive all men.

-Finrock

I'm not sure I understand what he is saying here either, would be good for some clarification.

It seems to mean 'they' put themselves in the position of God, forgiving sins, and that they may not lose their followers they will forgive anything and keep that money flowing.

[Craig Johnson]

I have wanted to have a through the veil experience very much. I have talked about it in therapy and there is a point that wanting that experience could be to fulfill a personal lack in my life. So, it is more a fantasy addiction to get away from the here and now. That to me makes a lot of sense. That doesn't mean I shouldn't continue to work toward that experience, but it means doing it for the right reasons. Because if I can't find peace now, an actual spiritual experience won't make up for the lack of the the Spirit in my day to day life.

Very good post. It is always important to look at the motive behind our spirituality.

I think the biggest fruit of the spirit is peace and joy from day to day. Service is not the end all. It is joy. We don't exist to serve, we exist to find joy. And service helps us in that endeavor. Too many people serve themselves ragged and never learned to take care of their own needs. In other words, service can also become an addiction to cover up a hole that needs to be worked on by being still and knowing God. And some people will make you serve them to take advantage of you. So it is important to be wise in all things.

I especially like the point that seeing something spiritual means it had to have an exact physical fulfillment. That isn't the way our minds work most of the time. The Holy Spirit can work through dreams to warn us of actual events, but that interpretation comes from the Holy Spirit and not because of that is seen in particular in a vision.

Service is vital, but in harmony with what you are saying my wife has told me several times that she is still bothered by some service she has rendered, particularly going to clean people's homes while they sat doing nothing or watching TV. I refuse to do that and will not tolerate it, nor will she anymore.

[Finrock]

I have wanted to have a through the veil experience very much. I have talked about it in therapy and there is a point that wanting that experience could be to fulfill a personal lack in my life. So, it is more a fantasy addiction to get away from the here and now. That to me makes a lot of sense. That doesn't mean I shouldn't continue to work toward that experience, but it means doing it for the right reasons. Because if I can't find peace now, an actual spiritual experience won't make up for the lack of the the Spirit in my day to day life.

Good point.

I think the biggest fruit of the spirit is peace and joy from day to day. Service is not the end all. It is joy. We don't exist to serve, we exist to find joy. And service helps us in that endeavor. Too many people serve themselves ragged and never learned to take care of their own needs. In other words, service can also become an addiction to cover up a hole that needs to be worked on by being still and knowing God. And some people will make you serve them to take advantage of you. So it is important to be wise in all things.

Good point again. We can also serve and serve but for the wrong reasons. Sometimes we serve because of a calling or because its an expectation and then we may begin to feel resentment towards some of those we serve because we might give so much but it doesn't seem to make us feel any better and there is constantly people who are in need. I've experienced this, so has my wife, and I know others have as well. We can go through the actions and yet we aren't doing the right thing. Its so important to be motivated by the right reason and to do things for the right reasons.

-Finrock

[Finrock]

Some of the things in that list are wrong, for sure, and they can cause people to go astray. But, here is another example of something that is good, that is being called evil by whoever you are quoting:

"They provide a blanket forgiveness of people's sins (as in, all of them)."

Maybe I'm not understanding what they mean here because this is pretty ambiguous and vague, however, God said that He will forgive whom He will forgive, but we are required to forgive all men.

-Finrock

I'm not sure I understand what he is saying here either, would be good for some clarification.

It seems to mean 'they' put themselves in the position of God, forgiving sins, and that they may not lose their followers they will forgive anything and keep that money flowing.

That makes sense if that is what they mean.

-Finrock

[Zathura]

This is great. It presents true dangers that people will inevitably face..


but it can cause the problem that other identical articles/ teachings can cause.
God tells us to part the veil, he tells us to seek his face. He wants us to “ascend”.

There are angels, and translated beings and it is scriptural for them to teach people.

Articles like this can push people away from those things which really are things of God, things he commanded

The part about the priesthood power can be picked at as well. There are plenty of scriptural accounts of priesthood bestowal that are different from what we do today.

I don’t want to cause a discussion on that, but I’m just pointing it out.

These are real dangers, but let’s be careful and not prevent people from following these commandments at the same time

I think I agree with most of what you are saying here, but would you mind helping me understand what you are saying by, "things which really are things of God, and things he commanded?" I would like to make sure I am interpreting correctly what you mean.

For example, Seeking the face of God, seeking to be in his presence are things the scriptures and Prophets urged us to do. It is of God, it is scriptural.

Seeking the “mysteries of God” is scriptural. The ministering Of angels is scriptural and of God.

My point is that articles like this cause members to ridicule or simply not believe any occurrence of these types of manifestations , instead of simply realizing that they are of God but there are spiritual dangers like the ones listed in the article.
There was a discussion on these awhile back and another poster in this forum said that the brethren are our messengers now, and therefore there is no need for ministering of Angels. That type of belief is the result of articles like this.

In every situation I’ve ever been in, in Brazil and he United States, where a ward member happened to tell someone they had seen an angel and one point, or seen God, they are ridiculed. The person isn’t claiming any new doctrine or pulling a Snuffer, just a simple comment of what they have seen.

This shouldn’t happen in God’s church.
The scriptures warn of what it means if there is a lack of such gifts.

So yes, there are dangers, but people should be careful to think that they should not seek messengers of God and to learn “mysteries” etc

[Zathura]

This is great. It presents true dangers that people will inevitably face..


but it can cause the problem that other identical articles/ teachings can cause.
God tells us to part the veil, he tells us to seek his face. He wants us to “ascend”.

There are angels, and translated beings and it is scriptural for them to teach people.

Articles like this can push people away from those things which really are things of God, things he commanded

The part about the priesthood power can be picked at as well. There are plenty of scriptural accounts of priesthood bestowal that are different from what we do today.

I don’t want to cause a discussion on that, but I’m just pointing it out.

These are real dangers, but let’s be careful and not prevent people from following these commandments at the same time

I think I agree with most of what you are saying here, but would you mind helping me understand what you are saying by, "things which really are things of God, and things he commanded?" I would like to make sure I am interpreting correctly what you mean.

I'm not sure what Stahura means, but here is an example that I can see:

You quoted: "that it's OK to prioritize your own wants (like parting the veil, "ascending" and having a one-on-one encounter with God) over and above the importance of God's priorities (to lose oneself and feed God's sheep)."

God has commanded us to love and to serve others AND He has also commanded us to "part the veil" and to have "one-on-one encounters" with Him (i.e., personal revelation). The quote acts like parting the veil, ascending, and having one-on-one encounters with God is not God's priority. It claims that these things that God has commended us are "selfish wants" when they aren't. They are a part of our mortal experience that God wants us to experience, and in fact, they lead to one actually beginning to feed God's sheep or to one having true charity (as opposed to doing it because they were commanded, because of duty, to appear righteous, etc.).

-Finrock

I think if you read the whole chain of articles on discernment the author clearly is in favor of us experiencing these things. I don't think priority is the right word here.

I agree with this, all I’m saying is that IN SPITE of the fact that the author appears to favor those experiences and the key word is priority, the people that read these types of articles have the tendency to only get “it’s dangerous to seek God and Angels and mysteries” out of the whole thing.

[Finrock]

This is great. It presents true dangers that people will inevitably face..


but it can cause the problem that other identical articles/ teachings can cause.
God tells us to part the veil, he tells us to seek his face. He wants us to “ascend”.

There are angels, and translated beings and it is scriptural for them to teach people.

Articles like this can push people away from those things which really are things of God, things he commanded

The part about the priesthood power can be picked at as well. There are plenty of scriptural accounts of priesthood bestowal that are different from what we do today.

I don’t want to cause a discussion on that, but I’m just pointing it out.

These are real dangers, but let’s be careful and not prevent people from following these commandments at the same time

I think I agree with most of what you are saying here, but would you mind helping me understand what you are saying by, "things which really are things of God, and things he commanded?" I would like to make sure I am interpreting correctly what you mean.

For example, Seeking the face of God, seeking to be in his presence are things the scriptures and Prophets urged us to do. It is of God, it is scriptural.

Seeking the “mysteries of God” is scriptural. The ministering Of angels is scriptural and of God.

My point is that articles like this cause members to ridicule or simply not believe any occurrence of these types of manifestations , instead of simply realizing that they are of God but there are spiritual dangers like the ones listed in the article.
There was a discussion on these awhile back and another poster in this forum said that the brethren are our messengers now, and therefore there is no need for ministering of Angels. That type of belief is the result of articles like this.

In every situation I’ve ever been in, in Brazil and he United States, where a ward member happened to tell someone they had seen an angel and one point, or seen God, they are ridiculed. The person isn’t claiming any new doctrine or pulling a Snuffer, just a simple comment of what they have seen.

This shouldn’t happen in God’s church.
The scriptures warn of what it means if there is a lack of such gifts.

So yes, there are dangers, but people should be careful to think that they should not seek messengers of God and to learn “mysteries” etc

I agree that too often claims of having manifestations, having visits from angels, speaking with God, or conversing with Jesus face-to-face are met with skepticism, doubt, disbelief, ridicule, or even outright ostracism/rejection by peers. Unfortunately some years ago I found myself in the camp of people who were skeptical. Truth be told, I'm still a pretty skeptical person. I'm trying to be more believing, and positive experiences in my life have made that easier, but, my negative life experiences have made me wary...perhaps too wary. So, I understand that as far as that goes.

-Finrock

[Zathura]

One of the greatest appeals the adversary can make to mankind, and that applies most specifically to those who have had an experience, is to tempt them to seek the extraordinary at the expense of ordinary obedience. The extraordinary experiences are wonderful, but, when focused upon can, and I may say most often do become a stumbling block of pride.
To me, you can identify those who struggle with this pride in that their experience becomes a status building tool, a tool they use over and over again to establish their dominance of opinion, righteousness or authority.
A divine manifestation means none of those things. Once we have had a mystical experience with the Lord or an angel, we should be more humble than ever, more of a servant than ever, more of a seeker after righteousness than ever, more obedience to his chosen servants than ever. But, it seems they usually choose to stand on the wall and testify of their own authority, as a by product of their transcendence.
Although Joseph had the first vision, he didn't trumpet it as his justification for teaching. He didn't even record it for many years. We should let such experiences be held close to our hearts, and let them motivate us toward greater humility and meekness and obedience than ever before, not as a platform of rebellion and personal aggrandizement.

You make some fantastic points, and some I have made as well. It's also something that others have used against me.

I speak often of the Baptism of Fire and the need to have this extraordinary experience. I have the belief that one of Satans' tools is to convince members of the church that they do not need to ever have extraordinary experiences.

John Pontius believed that if one did not have the "extraordinary event" that we speak of, but lived righteously, obeyed the commandments that you could be sanctified over time and be redeemed in the end. The difference between that, and seeking and receiving the baptism of fire and similar extraordinary experiences is that with one path, you live a life relatively devoid of spiritual power and ability to bless others, and the other path, you receive knowledge, blessings, and power to serve and bless the lives of others. Both in the end lead to the same place, it's just the journey that's different.

If Satan can just convince you that you don't need to every have spiritual experiences, and just "love", "joy", "peace" etc. "good" feelings, then he will have succeeded in convincing a person to live a life devoid of spiritual power, compared to the spirit filled life that leads to priesthood power and the ability to serve others in a greater capacity.

I can tell you that such experiences have always caused me to feel less worthy, and smaller. For a while some claimed I spoke of these things to lift myself up, but it couldn't be further from the truth. These experiences expand my perspective and truly humble me. I am honestly nothing. Part of the reason I never want any "grand" calling is because I'm well aware of the possibility that such experiences and supposed "power" and "ranking" can cause me to be puffed up and prideful. That's why I say you make a fantastic point.

One of the reason I constantly push this is precisely because nothing in my life humbled me more, taught me to obey the commandments, it changed my nature.

I think there is a fine line between these things, and that's why discernment is neccessary. Discernment is a whole other topic that deserves it's own thread, because people often think they have discerned something when in reality it was nothing but a thought.

These blessings we can receive have always been a two edged sword, because it can be used to bless others, and it can also be your downfall.