Who is to blame?

[Mark]

drTanner,
From birth on, we learn primarily through example. A good leader doesn’t just talk but actively shows by example the principles he wants to lead by. Jesus lived his principles- others wrote, rewrote and likely warped them. Talk is cheap - almost anyone can read or write words. That’s not really leading. Just consider how kids respond when their parents try to lead by long lectures.

Mark,
Notice I haven’t said anything about lds leaders only what Jesus said about the religious leaders he observed. You saw the comparison yourself.


“13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.” -Matthew 23

I was wondering, is there a difference between kingdom of God & kingdom of heaven? Considering how Jesus used them interchangeably even within the same context, they are the same - or so closely related as to be no distinction. Considering how WHEN asked when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The kingdom of God cometh not with observation; neither shall they say, lo here or lo there. For behold, the kingdom of God is within you.” -Luke 17
The realm within us is obviously the means by which we feel the spirit and communicate God. Where else would it be? To suggest that it’s external or that one should not search one’s own soul (psych-ology) is deceptive and keeping people from entering into the kingdom of God/Heaven.

You have said plenty about LDS leaders Sister. Go back and look at your hundreds of posts here just on this forum. You imply over and over that our Prophet leaders are not doing as they should. Whether it be on the distribution of tithing funds or worthiness for attendance to the temple or an assortment of other things you really have no faith that the leaders are being guided by the spirit. Instead you spend countless posts second guessing their decisions and comparing them to wicked generations past apostate leaders like the Pharisees. It is clear that you dont see them as inspired men guided by the Savior in managing the affairs of His church. How would anyone think differently based on your words?

[Thinker]

Mark,
From many posts you’ve written, you’ve given the impression that you only want people on this forum who agree with you. You put me and others down, telling us to go away when you haven’t addressed specifically why you hate us so much. If I have written anything that is not true in this thread, please explain in clear factual details how I was mistaken. Since you haven’t done that but have been very rude to me, I’m left to assume you are taking the truth to be hard and blaming the messenger rather than addressing the message. How would anyone think differently based on your words?

Please prove me wrong and justify your personal attacks towards me by quoting what I have written in this thread that justifies your attacks.

[drtanner]

The word "real intent" is mentioned 5 times in the Book of Mormon. Twice when discussing real repentance and associated blessings and three times when referencing receiving actual answers and gifts from God. This phrase is a key to actually receiving something from God. What does it mean? and What does it have to do with personal accountably and ownership? Everything.

2 Nephi 2:13 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, I know that if ye shall follow the Son, with full purpose of heart, acting no hypocrisy and no deception before God, but with real intent, repenting of your sins, witnessing unto the Father that ye are willing to take upon you the name of Christ, by baptism—yea, by following your Lord and your Savior down into the water, according to his word, behold, then shall ye receive the Holy Ghost; yea, then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost; and then can ye speak with the tongue of angels, and shout praises unto the Holy One of Israel.

Moroni 6:8 But as oft as they repented and sought forgiveness, with real intent, they were forgiven.

Moroni 7:6 For behold, God hath said a man being evil cannot do that which is good; for if he offereth a gift, or prayeth unto God, except he shall do it with real intent it profiteth him nothing.

Moroni 7:9 And likewise also is it counted evil unto a man, if he shall pray and not with real intent of heart; yea, and it profiteth him nothing, for God receiveth none such.

Moroni 10:4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

[Zathura]

The word "real intent" is mentioned 5 times in the Book of Mormon. Twice when discussion real repentance and associated blessings and three times when referencing receiving actual answers and gifts from God. This phrase is a key to actually receiving something from God. What does it mean? and What does it have to do with personal accountably and ownership? Everything.

2 Nephi 2:13 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, I know that if ye shall follow the Son, with full purpose of heart, acting no hypocrisy and no deception before God, but with real intent, repenting of your sins, witnessing unto the Father that ye are willing to take upon you the name of Christ, by baptism—yea, by following your Lord and your Savior down into the water, according to his word, behold, then shall ye receive the Holy Ghost; yea, then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost; and then can ye speak with the tongue of angels, and shout praises unto the Holy One of Israel.

Moroni 6:8 But as oft as they repented and sought forgiveness, with real intent, they were forgiven.

Moroni 7:6 For behold, God hath said a man being evil cannot do that which is good; for if he offereth a gift, or prayeth unto God, except he shall do it with real intent it profiteth him nothing.

Moroni 7:9 And likewise also is it counted evil unto a man, if he shall pray and not with real intent of heart; yea, and it profiteth him nothing, for God receiveth none such.

Moroni 10:4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

YES YES YES. Real intent is something I have pondered quite a bit on.
Obviously we ALL want to pray with real intent and try to do it, but in my experience, it’s something that will require outside help to do.

In my personal experience, praying with real intent is something that takes dedication and time(not always, but usually). Eventually, as you attempt to cry unto the Lord with all of your heart, the Spirit begins to help. I personally feel urged to say, ask, and thank God for specific things. Suddenly with this help, pleadings begin to feel like they are made with real intent. Asking for forgiveness has a different feeling at that point. Acknowledging to God that I must rely solely on Jesus Christ suddenly means more, feels more real than it did at the beginning of the prayer.

I also think the same thing happens with being broken hearted. The Spirit brings you lower than you can go on your own. The Spirit brings you to the depths of humility.

[Zathura]

My beloved friends, a first step on this wondrous and fulfilling path of true discipleship starts with our asking the simple question:

“Lord, is it I?”

Elder Uchtdorf:

It was our beloved Savior’s final night in mortality, the evening before He would offer Himself a ransom for all mankind. As He broke bread with His disciples, He said something that must have filled their hearts with great alarm and deep sadness. “One of you shall betray me,” He told them.

The disciples didn’t question the truth of what He said. Nor did they look around, point to someone else, and ask, “Is it him?”

Instead, “they were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I?”1

I wonder what each of us would do if we were asked that question by the Savior. Would we look at those around us and say in our hearts, “He’s probably talking about Brother Johnson. I’ve always wondered about him,” or “I’m glad Brother Brown is here. He really needs to hear this message”? Or would we, like those disciples of old, look inward and ask that penetrating question: “Is it I?”

In these simple words, “Lord, is it I?” lies the beginning of wisdom and the pathway to personal conversion and lasting change.

A Parable of Dandelions

Once there was a man who enjoyed taking evening walks around his neighborhood. He particularly looked forward to walking past his neighbor’s house. This neighbor kept his lawn perfectly manicured, flowers always in bloom, the trees healthy and shady. It was obvious that the neighbor made every effort to have a beautiful lawn.

But one day as the man was walking past his neighbor’s house, he noticed in the middle of this beautiful lawn a single, enormous, yellow dandelion weed.

It looked so out of place that it surprised him. Why didn’t his neighbor pull it out? Couldn’t he see it? Didn’t he know that the dandelion could cast seeds that could give root to dozens of additional weeds?

This solitary dandelion bothered him beyond description, and he wanted to do something about it. Should he just pluck it out? Or spray it with weed killer? Perhaps if he went under cover of night, he could remove it secretly.

These thoughts totally occupied his mind as he walked toward his own home. He entered his house without even glancing at his own front yard—which was blanketed with hundreds of yellow dandelions.

Beams and Motes

Does this story remind us of the words of the Savior?

“Why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? …

“… First cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.”2

This business of beams and motes seems to be closely related to our inability to see ourselves clearly. I’m not sure why we are able to diagnose and recommend remedies for other people’s ills so well, while we often have difficulty seeing our own.

Some years ago there was a news story about a man who believed that if he rubbed lemon juice on his face, it would make him invisible to cameras. So he put lemon juice all over his face, went out, and robbed two banks. Not much later he was arrested when his image was broadcast over the evening news. When police showed the man the videos of himself from the security cameras, he couldn’t believe his eyes. “But I had lemon juice on my face!” he protested.3

When a scientist at Cornell University heard about this story, he was intrigued that a man could be so painfully unaware of his own incompetence. To determine whether this was a general problem, two researchers invited college students to participate in a series of tests on various life skills and then asked them to rate how they did. The students who performed poorly were the least accurate at evaluating their own performance—some of them estimating their scores to be five times higher than they actually were.4

This study has been replicated in numerous ways, confirming over and over again the same conclusion: many of us have a difficult time seeing ourselves as we truly are, and even successful people overestimate their own contribution and underestimate the contributions that others make.5

It might not be so significant to overestimate how well we drive a car or how far we can drive a golf ball. But when we start believing that our contributions at home, at work, and at church are greater than they actually are, we blind ourselves to blessings and opportunities to improve ourselves in significant and profound ways.

Spiritual Blind Spots

An acquaintance of mine used to live in a ward with some of the highest statistics in the Church—attendance was high, home teaching numbers were high, Primary children were always well behaved, ward dinners included fantastic food that members rarely spilled on the meetinghouse floor, and I think there were never any arguments at Church ball.

My friend and his wife were subsequently called on a mission. When they returned three years later, this couple was astonished to learn that during the time they were away serving, 11 marriages had ended in divorce.

Although the ward had every outward indication of faithfulness and strength, something unfortunate was happening in the hearts and lives of the members. And the troubling thing is that this situation is not unique. Such terrible and often unnecessary things happen when members of the Church become disengaged from gospel principles. They may appear on the outside to be disciples of Jesus Christ, but on the inside their hearts have separated from their Savior and His teachings. They have gradually turned away from the things of the Spirit and moved toward the things of the world.

Once-worthy priesthood holders start to tell themselves that the Church is a good thing for women and children but not for them. Or some are convinced that their busy schedules or unique circumstances make them exempt from the daily acts of devotion and service that would keep them close to the Spirit. In this age of self-justification and narcissism, it is easy to become quite creative at coming up with excuses for not regularly approaching God in prayer, procrastinating the study of the scriptures, avoiding Church meetings and family home evenings, or not paying an honest tithe and offerings.

My dear brethren, will you please look inside your hearts and ask the simple question: “Lord, is it I?”

Have you disengaged—even slightly—from “the … gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to [your] trust”?6 Have you allowed “the god of this world” to darken your minds to “the light of the glorious gospel of Christ”?7

My beloved friends, my dear brethren, ask yourselves, “Where is my treasure?”

Is your heart set on the convenient things of this world, or is it focused on the teachings of the diligent Jesus Christ? “For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.”8

Does the Spirit of God dwell in your hearts? Are you “rooted and grounded” in the love of God and of your fellowmen? Do you devote sufficient time and creativity to bringing happiness to your marriage and family? Do you give your energies to the sublime goal of comprehending and living “the breadth, and length, and depth, and height”9 of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ?

Brethren, if it is your great desire to cultivate Christlike attributes of “faith, virtue, knowledge, temperance, patience, brotherly kindness, godliness, charity, humility, [and service],”10 Heavenly Father will make you an instrument in His hands unto the salvation of many souls.11

The Examined Life

Brethren, none of us likes to admit when we are drifting off the right course. Often we try to avoid looking deeply into our souls and confronting our weaknesses, limitations, and fears. Consequently, when we do examine our lives, we look through the filter of biases, excuses, and stories we tell ourselves in order to justify unworthy thoughts and actions.

But being able to see ourselves clearly is essential to our spiritual growth and well-being. If our weaknesses and shortcomings remain obscured in the shadows, then the redeeming power of the Savior cannot heal them and make them strengths.12 Ironically, our blindness toward our human weaknesses will also make us blind to the divine potential that our Father yearns to nurture within each of us.

So how can we shine the pure light of God’s truth into our souls and see ourselves as He sees us?

May I suggest that the holy scriptures and the talks given at general conference are an effective mirror we can hold up for self-examination.

As you hear or read the words of the ancient and modern prophets, refrain from thinking about how the words apply to someone else and ask the simple question: “Lord, is it I?”

We must approach our Eternal Father with broken hearts and teachable minds. We must be willing to learn and to change. And, oh, how much we gain by committing to live the life our Heavenly Father intends for us.

Those who do not wish to learn and change probably will not and most likely will begin to wonder whether the Church has anything to offer them.

But those who want to improve and progress, those who learn of the Savior and desire to be like Him, those who humble themselves as a little child and seek to bring their thoughts and actions into harmony with our Father in Heaven—they will experience the miracle of the Savior’s Atonement. They will surely feel God’s resplendent Spirit. They will taste the indescribable joy that is the fruit of a meek and humble heart. They will be blessed with the desire and discipline to become true disciples of Jesus Christ.

The Power of Good

Over the course of my life, I have had the opportunity to rub shoulders with some of the most competent and intelligent men and women this world has to offer. When I was younger, I was impressed by those who were educated, accomplished, successful, and applauded by the world. But over the years, I have come to the realization that I am far more impressed by those wonderful and blessed souls who are truly good and without guile.

And isn’t that what the gospel is all about and does for us? It is the good news, and it helps us to become good.

The words of the Apostle James apply to us today:

“God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. …

“Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.”13

Brethren, we must put aside our pride, see beyond our vanity, and in humility ask, “Lord, is it I?”

And if the Lord’s answer happens to be “Yes, my son, there are things you must improve, things I can help you to overcome,” I pray that we will accept this answer, humbly acknowledge our sins and shortcomings, and then change our ways by becoming better husbands, better fathers, better sons. May we from this time forward seek with all our might to walk steadfastly in the Savior’s blessed way—for seeing ourselves clearly is the beginning of wisdom.

As we do so, our bountiful God will lead us by the hand; we will “be made strong, and blessed from on high.”14

My beloved friends, a first step on this wondrous and fulfilling path of true discipleship starts with our asking the simple question:

“Lord, is it I?”

Of this I testify and leave you my blessing in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.

This is what I thought of when Nelson has twice discussed Priesthood Power and how too many of us do not understand it, and do not understand what we are missing out on.

It’s also what comes to mind when President Benson talked of Spiritual Rebirth and wondered about the progress the Church would see if more members were spiritually born of God.

Who are they talking about? Like you said, I believe we need to ask “Lord is it I?”

“Do I misunderstand priesthood power?”
“Have I been spiritually begotten?”
“If I have been spiritually begotten, can I feel so now?”
“Do i exercise unrighteous dominion?”

This simple question humbles me every time.

[Zathura]

You are still hung up on the thought that leadership is jointly to blame for memberships lack of reaching their spiritual potentials. So here is my challenge to you. Go back and listen to or read the past several conference talks by our leaders. Now make note of what they are asking the membership to be practicing daily in their lives. What suggestions are they giving (begging) us to be doing? What principles are they testifying of? Then come back and tell me that if the members were consistent in following the counsels and suggestions of these leaders that they would not be having greater spiritual experiences and stronger faith and reliance on the Lord Jesus Christ. In fact would they not be experiencing a massive spiritual rebirth process like many in ancient times experienced? I believe they would. The problem is that many in the church do NOT do what they should be doing daily and hence they live beneath their spiritual potentials. They get caught up in Babylon and start to blend in with the world. Are the leaders warning against this? YES! How is it their fault that many of the membership are often weak and lack faith and follow through? Blaming the leadership for memberships lacks in living their covenants and keeping the commandments is just baloney. It is just not honest. Those who are consistently following the leaders suggestions and admonitions are seeing greater spiritual power and more spiritual guidance in their lives. That is just a fact.

I actually took your challenge and read through a few talks. This post actually highlights something that I think impedes some members.

This was discussed on the other thread, but the general “gist” that I get from many talks(Mostly from 70’s that I don’t see often) is that Most people will not have large spiritual experiences, most people will endure a life long process of growing that is so small and imperceptible that you won’t notice it until later down the road, but that’s okay, because that’s what happens with most people.

Now look, if someone is slowly moving along this path, they can press forward and eventually realize that there is a whole lot more out there for them, and then following the words of leaders will inevitably lead to the type of conversion we see in the scriptures. However, others will never think twice and will happily float along for the rest of their lives.

I take issue with this, because that literally describes the present perspective of anybody in any path. Someone who isn’t even trying to grow will see themselves growing just as fast as someone who grows so slow it’s imperceptible.

I don’t think that the above ^^^ is necessarily incorrect, but if people are being told that that’s the case for a majority of people, they’ll most likely feel perfectly fine going with the flow. They won’t know that there’s anything better out there for them to obtain . That in turn doesn’t really lead to “massive spiritual rebirth”, but instead that imperceptible process mentioned above.

Again, I mention John Pontius and the 2 paths he talked about. Both are admirable, the journey’s are just different. One is full of spiritual power and an increased ability to serve.
.

I don’t think you can totally let leaders off the hook in the manner you are.
Aside from that, I think your post is spot on. If we follow the things they teach, if we do the things we say to do, that will lead us towards Christ/rebirth/conversion.

[drtanner]

President Nelson wants us to experience greater things. I feel the effort of his plea for us to be all in with Christ when he says things like this:

To be sure, there may be times when you feel as though the heavens are closed. But I promise that as you continue to be obedient, expressing gratitude for every blessing the Lord gives you, and as you patiently honor the Lord’s timetable, you will be given the knowledge and understanding you seek. Every blessing the Lord has for you—even miracles—will follow

I don’t see him placing limitations on knowledge and understanding but the opposite where we are only limited by our belief in Christ.

[drtanner]

Love bade me welcome, yet my soul drew back,
Guilty of dust and sin.
But quick-ey'd Love, observing me grow slack
From my first entrance in,
Drew nearer to me, sweetly questioning
If I lack'd anything.

"A guest," I answer'd, "worthy to be here";
Love said, "You shall be he."
"I, the unkind, the ungrateful? ah my dear,
I cannot look on thee."
Love took my hand and smiling did reply,
"Who made the eyes but I?"

"Truth, Lord, but I have marr'd them; let my shame
Go where it doth deserve."
"And know you not," says Love, "who bore the blame?"
"My dear, then I will serve."
"You must sit down," says Love, "and taste my meat."
So I did sit and eat.

When we take personal accountability and recognize it us who needs to come to him, we recognize he who really bore the blame and we find a seat at the table. A prophet is simply facilitating this dinner date.

[Mark]

You are still hung up on the thought that leadership is jointly to blame for memberships lack of reaching their spiritual potentials. So here is my challenge to you. Go back and listen to or read the past several conference talks by our leaders. Now make note of what they are asking the membership to be practicing daily in their lives. What suggestions are they giving (begging) us to be doing? What principles are they testifying of? Then come back and tell me that if the members were consistent in following the counsels and suggestions of these leaders that they would not be having greater spiritual experiences and stronger faith and reliance on the Lord Jesus Christ. In fact would they not be experiencing a massive spiritual rebirth process like many in ancient times experienced? I believe they would. The problem is that many in the church do NOT do what they should be doing daily and hence they live beneath their spiritual potentials. They get caught up in Babylon and start to blend in with the world. Are the leaders warning against this? YES! How is it their fault that many of the membership are often weak and lack faith and follow through? Blaming the leadership for memberships lacks in living their covenants and keeping the commandments is just baloney. It is just not honest. Those who are consistently following the leaders suggestions and admonitions are seeing greater spiritual power and more spiritual guidance in their lives. That is just a fact.

I actually took your challenge and read through a few talks. This post actually highlights something that I think impedes some members.

This was discussed on the other thread, but the general “gist” that I get from many talks(Mostly from 70’s that I don’t see often) is that Most people will not have large spiritual experiences, most people will endure a life long process of growing that is so small and imperceptible that you won’t notice it until later down the road, but that’s okay, because that’s what happens with most people.

Now look, if someone is slowly moving along this path, they can press forward and eventually realize that there is a whole lot more out there for them, and then following the words of leaders will inevitably lead to the type of conversion we see in the scriptures. However, others will never think twice and will happily float along for the rest of their lives.

I take issue with this, because that literally describes the present perspective of anybody in any path. Someone who isn’t even trying to grow will see themselves growing just as fast as someone who grows so slow it’s imperceptible.

I don’t think that the above ^^^ is necessarily incorrect, but if people are being told that that’s the case for a majority of people, they’ll most likely feel perfectly fine going with the flow. They won’t know that there’s anything better out there for them to obtain . That in turn doesn’t really lead to “massive spiritual rebirth”, but instead that imperceptible process mentioned above.

Again, I mention John Pontius and the 2 paths he talked about. Both are admirable, the journey’s are just different. One is full of spiritual power and an increased ability to serve.
.

I don’t think you can totally let leaders off the hook in the manner you are.
Aside from that, I think your post is spot on. If we follow the things they teach, if we do the things we say to do, that will lead us towards Christ/rebirth/conversion.

Read this talk from our current Prophet Stahura;

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... r?lang=eng

Is this impeding some members? Actually I see it as a call to repentance and an invitation from a Prophet to experience true power in the Priesthood. I think you need to be careful in assigning how the Lord will operate and work in others lives. Many need to be carefully guided along the path so as not to become overwhelmed or discouraged. The Lord does not want to hold anyone responsible and accountable for the greater light and knowledge they may be given until they are sufficiently prepared and matured in the gospel to handle those responsibilities attached to receiving that greater light and truth. Why would He want to condemn a child for receiving something they are not prepared to live by? The greater the light the greater the condemnation that accompanies living unfaithful to that light. The Lord is merciful and knows how quickly we can handle that light and truth. Some handle it faster than others. It isn't a race. He wants all his children to return to Him at the pace they can handle. He is a God of love and compassion.

[Zathura]

You are still hung up on the thought that leadership is jointly to blame for memberships lack of reaching their spiritual potentials. So here is my challenge to you. Go back and listen to or read the past several conference talks by our leaders. Now make note of what they are asking the membership to be practicing daily in their lives. What suggestions are they giving (begging) us to be doing? What principles are they testifying of? Then come back and tell me that if the members were consistent in following the counsels and suggestions of these leaders that they would not be having greater spiritual experiences and stronger faith and reliance on the Lord Jesus Christ. In fact would they not be experiencing a massive spiritual rebirth process like many in ancient times experienced? I believe they would. The problem is that many in the church do NOT do what they should be doing daily and hence they live beneath their spiritual potentials. They get caught up in Babylon and start to blend in with the world. Are the leaders warning against this? YES! How is it their fault that many of the membership are often weak and lack faith and follow through? Blaming the leadership for memberships lacks in living their covenants and keeping the commandments is just baloney. It is just not honest. Those who are consistently following the leaders suggestions and admonitions are seeing greater spiritual power and more spiritual guidance in their lives. That is just a fact.

I actually took your challenge and read through a few talks. This post actually highlights something that I think impedes some members.

This was discussed on the other thread, but the general “gist” that I get from many talks(Mostly from 70’s that I don’t see often) is that Most people will not have large spiritual experiences, most people will endure a life long process of growing that is so small and imperceptible that you won’t notice it until later down the road, but that’s okay, because that’s what happens with most people.

Now look, if someone is slowly moving along this path, they can press forward and eventually realize that there is a whole lot more out there for them, and then following the words of leaders will inevitably lead to the type of conversion we see in the scriptures. However, others will never think twice and will happily float along for the rest of their lives.

I take issue with this, because that literally describes the present perspective of anybody in any path. Someone who isn’t even trying to grow will see themselves growing just as fast as someone who grows so slow it’s imperceptible.

I don’t think that the above ^^^ is necessarily incorrect, but if people are being told that that’s the case for a majority of people, they’ll most likely feel perfectly fine going with the flow. They won’t know that there’s anything better out there for them to obtain . That in turn doesn’t really lead to “massive spiritual rebirth”, but instead that imperceptible process mentioned above.

Again, I mention John Pontius and the 2 paths he talked about. Both are admirable, the journey’s are just different. One is full of spiritual power and an increased ability to serve.
.

I don’t think you can totally let leaders off the hook in the manner you are.
Aside from that, I think your post is spot on. If we follow the things they teach, if we do the things we say to do, that will lead us towards Christ/rebirth/conversion.

Read this talk from our current Prophet Stahura;

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... r?lang=eng

Is this impeding some members? Actually I see it as a call to repentance and an invitation from a Prophet to experience true power in the Priesthood. I think you need to be careful in assigning how the Lord will operate and work in others lives. Many need to be carefully guided along the path so as not to become overwhelmed or discouraged. The Lord does not want to hold anyone responsible and accountable for the greater light and knowledge they may be given until they are sufficiently prepared and matured in the gospel to handle those responsibilities attached to receiving that greater light and truth. Why would He want to condemn a child for receiving something they are not prepared to live by? The greater the light the greater the condemnation that accompanies living unfaithful to that light. The Lord is merciful and knows how quickly we can handle that light and truth. Some handle it faster than others. It isn't a race. He wants all his children to return to Him at the pace they can handle. He is a God of love and compassion.

I love that talk, I created a post on it:
https://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtop ... 37#p850852

I wasn't referring to President Nelson. I've loved his recent talks.