Who is to blame?

[drtanner]

Fast forward a few years after Moses came back down from the mountain, everyone was living the lower law, drawing near to the Lord through lips and rote actions but lacking true power and experiencing nothing personally. Perhaps "perceived" revelations had stopped from Moses but who was to blame. Was it Moses fault for not revealing more about what they could have? or Was it their fault for not following the counsel of a prophet?

In Like Manner Lehi and Nephi experience a prophets woe:

1 And it came to pass that after I, Nephi, had been carried away in the Spirit, and seen all these things, I returned to the tent of my father.

2 And it came to pass that I beheld my brethren, and they were disputing one with another concerning the things which my father had spoken unto them.

3 For he truly spake many great things unto them, which were hard to be understood, save a man should inquire of the Lord; and they being hard in their hearts, therefore they did not look unto the Lord as they ought.

6 And it came to pass that after I had received strength I spake unto my brethren, desiring to know of them the cause of their disputations.

7 And they said: Behold, we cannot understand the words which our father hath spoken concerning the natural branches of the olive tree, and also concerning the Gentiles.

8 And I said unto them: Have ye inquired of the Lord?

9 And they said unto me: We have not; for the Lord maketh no such thing known unto us.

10 Behold, I said unto them: How is it that ye do not keep the commandments of the Lord? How is it that ye will perish, because of the hardness of your hearts?

11 Do ye not remember the things which the Lord hath said?—If ye will not harden your hearts, and ask me in faith, believing that ye shall receive, with diligence in keeping my commandments, surely these things shall be made known unto you.

And now we have a modern prophet urging the following:

Oh, there is so much more that your Father in Heaven wants you to know. As Elder Neal A. Maxwell taught, “To those who have eyes to see and ears to hear, it is clear that the Father and the Son are giving away the secrets of the universe!”13

Nothing opens the heavens quite like the combination of increased purity, exact obedience, earnest seeking, daily feasting on the words of Christ in the Book of Mormon,14 and regular time committed to temple and family history work.

Maybe we love the words of Christ in the Book of Mormon but how is our temple and family history work? Do we pick and choose counsel?

We complain that "greater" things are not revealed in conference and that these are only policy changes. We lament that we do not have additional scripture, and so on but who is to blame? Is it the prophets fault for not revealing greater things, or collectively have we said, "we have enough" Are we looking for "signs" from the prophet to first believe or do we truly believe and whole heartily follow counsel and as a result experience a witness. I can tell you that a witness is available, and that it points us closer to Christ that there is no coincidence in the counsel of President Nelson and what he is urging us all to experience. I pray that collectively we listen so we can receive more. How do we claim to follow Christ but yet doubt whom he has called as a modern day Moses? Why is the knee jerk reaction for some to put words in peoples mouths who would sustain and encourage other to listen to a prophet that say that those people put the prophet above or before Christ. Perpetuating this is part of the stumbling block.

My plea is that if we really want more we will collectively look at who really is to blame and make changes and create a ripple effect that will allow for those promised blessings and revelations to come forward.

[Finrock]

Cult leaders always blame their underlings for not being righteous enough, or not sacrificing enough, or not understanding, or being unwilling to apply what is being taught, etc. The leaders of cults never take responsibility for their actions, for their own life, and for their own examples, and for what they teach. Its a form of emotional and psychological manipulation that allows them to remain in power and to keep the people under their control.

Cult leaders never apologize or publicly acknowledge their faults and mistakes but demand repentance and contrition from their followers.

-Finrock

[Durzan]

Cult leaders always blame their underlings for not being righteous enough, or not sacrificing enough, or not understanding, or being unwilling to apply what is being taught, etc. The leaders of cults never take responsibility for their actions, for their own life, and for their own examples, and for what they teach. Its a form of emotional and psychological manipulation that allows them to remain in power and to keep the people under their control.

Cult leaders never apologize or publicly acknowledge their faults and mistakes but demand repentance and contrition from their followers.

-Finrock

Good thing we are not a cult (according to the negative connotation of the word and not its literal definition).

[Mark]

Cult leaders always blame their underlings for not being righteous enough, or not sacrificing enough, or not understanding, or being unwilling to apply what is being taught, etc. The leaders of cults never take responsibility for their actions, for their own life, and for their own examples, and for what they teach. Its a form of emotional and psychological manipulation that allows them to remain in power and to keep the people under their control.

Cult leaders never apologize or publicly acknowledge their faults and mistakes but demand repentance and contrition from their followers.

-Finrock

What a strange and curious reply to the post from the good dr. Do you see Pres Nelson as a cult leader? Why are you associating cult leaders with our current Prophet?

[eddie]

President Nelson.JPG (35.51 KiB) Viewed 3730 times

[DesertWonderer2]

Cult leaders always blame their underlings for not being righteous enough, or not sacrificing enough, or not understanding, or being unwilling to apply what is being taught, etc. The leaders of cults never take responsibility for their actions, for their own life, and for their own examples, and for what they teach. Its a form of emotional and psychological manipulation that allows them to remain in power and to keep the people under their control.

Cult leaders never apologize or publicly acknowledge their faults and mistakes but demand repentance and contrition from their followers.

-Finrock

I completely agree. Now, what has your statement got to do with the OP? What’s your point?

[Mark]

Cult leaders always blame their underlings for not being righteous enough, or not sacrificing enough, or not understanding, or being unwilling to apply what is being taught, etc. The leaders of cults never take responsibility for their actions, for their own life, and for their own examples, and for what they teach. Its a form of emotional and psychological manipulation that allows them to remain in power and to keep the people under their control.

Cult leaders never apologize or publicly acknowledge their faults and mistakes but demand repentance and contrition from their followers.

-Finrock

I completely agree. Now, what has your statement got to do with the OP? What’s your point?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Re72di5phM0

[shadow]

Howard Jones said no one is to blame.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pekhxxngQ3s

[Mark]

Howard Jones said no one is to blame.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pekhxxngQ3s

Was Howard a cult leader? Is he to blame for all those 80's mullets?

https://images.search.yahoo.com/search/ ... tion=click

[EdGoble]

Cult leaders always blame their underlings for not being righteous enough, or not sacrificing enough, or not understanding, or being unwilling to apply what is being taught, etc. The leaders of cults never take responsibility for their actions, for their own life, and for their own examples, and for what they teach. Its a form of emotional and psychological manipulation that allows them to remain in power and to keep the people under their control.

Cult leaders never apologize or publicly acknowledge their faults and mistakes but demand repentance and contrition from their followers.

-Finrock

I hear echoes of the accusations of a certain person in the Book of Mormon here.

27 And thus ye lead away this people after the foolish traditions of your fathers, and according to your own desires; and ye keep them down, even as it were in bondage, that ye may glut yourselves with the labors of their hands, that they durst not look up with boldness, and that they durst not enjoy their rights and privileges.

28 Yea, they durst not make use of that which is their own lest they should offend their priests, who do yoke them according to their desires, and have brought them to believe, by their traditions and their dreams and their whims and their visions and their pretended mysteries, that they should, if they did not do according to their words, offend some unknown being, who they say is God—a being who never has been seen or known, who never was nor ever will be.(Alma 30:27-28)

Actually what is going on is that the Brethren are doing the best they can to navigate a complex situation, navigate a ship that is in waters filled with icebergs and mines, and trying to keep people from hurling themselves into the water.

People that take responsibility for their own light and knowledge leave the brethren to teach the basics as they must in this environment in which we live, and get further light and knowledge from the Holy Ghost directly, and stop worrying about what the Brethren are doing, and leave the running of the Church to the Brethren.

People that take responsibility for their own light and knowledge don't cut themselves off from the Holy Ghost by finding fault with and speaking evil of the Lord's anointed, asserting that they are "cult leaders."

[EdGoble]

Fast forward a few years after Moses came back down from the mountain, everyone was living the lower law, drawing near to the Lord through lips and rote actions but lacking true power and experiencing nothing personally. Perhaps "perceived" revelations had stopped from Moses but who was to blame. Was it Moses fault for not revealing more about what they could have? or Was it their fault for not following the counsel of a prophet?

This is an awesome statement, and as an institutional Church as a whole, there is definitely truth here. However, I will just add that people have no limitation on the personal light and knowledge they are able to receive. People have no reason to wait for the institution to receive light and knowledge. The Lord is ready and willing to give people further light and knowledge on an individual level. People just need to be careful with how they treat and talk about the things that they receive, and not parade them as if they themselves are a revelator with a commission to teach what they have received individually.

[Finrock]

Cult leaders always blame their underlings for not being righteous enough, or not sacrificing enough, or not understanding, or being unwilling to apply what is being taught, etc. The leaders of cults never take responsibility for their actions, for their own life, and for their own examples, and for what they teach. Its a form of emotional and psychological manipulation that allows them to remain in power and to keep the people under their control.

Cult leaders never apologize or publicly acknowledge their faults and mistakes but demand repentance and contrition from their followers.

-Finrock

I hear echoes of the accusations of a certain person in the Book of Mormon here.

27 And thus ye lead away this people after the foolish traditions of your fathers, and according to your own desires; and ye keep them down, even as it were in bondage, that ye may glut yourselves with the labors of their hands, that they durst not look up with boldness, and that they durst not enjoy their rights and privileges.

28 Yea, they durst not make use of that which is their own lest they should offend their priests, who do yoke them according to their desires, and have brought them to believe, by their traditions and their dreams and their whims and their visions and their pretended mysteries, that they should, if they did not do according to their words, offend some unknown being, who they say is God—a being who never has been seen or known, who never was nor ever will be.(Alma 30:27-28)

Actually what is going on is that the Brethren are doing the best they can to navigate a complex situation, navigate a ship that is in waters filled with icebergs and mines, and trying to keep people from hurling themselves into the water.

People that take responsibility for their own light and knowledge leave the brethren to teach the basics as they must in this environment in which we live, and get further light and knowledge from the Holy Ghost directly, and stop worrying about what the Brethren are doing, and leave the running of the Church to the Brethren.

People that take responsibility for their own light and knowledge don't cut themselves off from the Holy Ghost by finding fault with and speaking evil of the Lord's anointed, asserting that they are "cult leaders."

I suppose we all see and hear what we want to see and what we want to hear. In reality you can't identify a single assertion in my post that anyone is a cult leader, no accusations of any kind, no fault finding, and not a single instance of speaking evil of any individual (Lord's anointed or otherwise). But, I'm used to some Mormons being very sensitive and reacting defensively to ideas outside of the echo chamber. I think its because of insecurity, but, I don't know for a fact. I think that its caused by insecurity because I use to be insecure with my faith and with my religion and I remember being very sensitive to any idea that wasn't explicitly and gushingly positive or very sensitive to any potentially negative inferences.

I share my ideas to provide context, contrast, and balance to what is being said in the OP. If considered honestly and with sincerity it can be helpful in identifying what is the reality as to the question of "who is to blame".

-Finrock

[EdGoble]

I suppose we all see and hear what we want to see and what we want to hear. In reality you can't identify a single assertion in my post that anyone is a cult leader, no accusations of any kind, no fault finding, and not a single instance of speaking evil of any individual (Lord's anointed or otherwise). But, I'm used to some Mormons being very sensitive and reacting defensively to ideas outside of the echo chamber. I think its because of insecurity, but, I don't know for a fact. I think that its caused by insecurity because I use to be insecure with my faith and with my religion and I remember being very sensitive to any idea that wasn't explicitly and gushingly positive or very sensitive to any potentially negative inferences.

I share my ideas to provide context, contrast, and balance to what is being said in the OP. If considered honestly and with sincerity it can be helpful in identifying what is the reality as to the question of "who is to blame".

-Finrock

Nice try, but if you didn't mean people's brains to read between the lines (unlikely), you can't blame them for the fact that the structure and context of the words set them up to read into it what was read into it. While it is true that you attempted to allow yourself plausible deniability, it remains implausible.

Sorry, but I place all responsibility on your words for creating the conclusion that your words were directed at the brethren as saying that they are Cult Leaders. You can't wiggle your way out of that one. Your context was loud and clear, and the responsibility for what you said of them is your own. I am an adult in my mid 40's and have self-published books and have a good command of the English language. I know exactly what you meant, and you meant what you said. There is no responsibility on me for this.

[Finrock]

I suppose we all see and hear what we want to see and what we want to hear. In reality you can't identify a single assertion in my post that anyone is a cult leader, no accusations of any kind, no fault finding, and not a single instance of speaking evil of any individual (Lord's anointed or otherwise). But, I'm used to some Mormons being very sensitive and reacting defensively to ideas outside of the echo chamber. I think its because of insecurity, but, I don't know for a fact. I think that its caused by insecurity because I use to be insecure with my faith and with my religion and I remember being very sensitive to any idea that wasn't explicitly and gushingly positive or very sensitive to any potentially negative inferences.

I share my ideas to provide context, contrast, and balance to what is being said in the OP. If considered honestly and with sincerity it can be helpful in identifying what is the reality as to the question of "who is to blame".

-Finrock

Nice try, but if you didn't mean people's brains to read between the lines (unlikely), you can't blame them for the fact that the structure and context of the words set them up to read into it what was read into it. Sorry, but I place all responsibility on your words for creating the conclusion that your words were directed at the brethren as Cult Leaders. You can't wiggle your way out of that one. Your context was loud and clear, and the responsibility for what you said of them is your own. I am an adult in my mid 40's and have published books and have a good command of the English language. I know exactly what you meant, and you meant what you said. There is no responsibility on me for this.

I'm not trying to wiggle my way out of anything because I'm not in a situation where I need to wiggle out. You can do as you please, but your thoughts and your conclusions are yours, not mine. You "read in to" my post what you wanted to read in to it. There isn't even any debate over that. Its a foregone conclusion. I did mean what I said but you clearly don't know exactly what I meant. But, I'm not gonna argue with you about it any more because I don't need to defend myself, what I said, or anything else. I've already identified what I meant: I share my ideas to provide context, contrast, and balance to what is being said in the OP and to provoke thought. <----You believing and understanding anything more than what I just wrote here, is you choosing to believe and choosing to understand what you want to believe and what you want to understand.

If you are going to persist in falsely accusing me then please specifically demonstrate where I accused the "brethren", spoke evil of them, called anyone a cult leader, or where I found fault with any Church leader.

-Finrock

[shadow]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8t5PXQX4E1o

[Finrock]

I suppose we all see and hear what we want to see and what we want to hear. In reality you can't identify a single assertion in my post that anyone is a cult leader, no accusations of any kind, no fault finding, and not a single instance of speaking evil of any individual (Lord's anointed or otherwise). But, I'm used to some Mormons being very sensitive and reacting defensively to ideas outside of the echo chamber. I think its because of insecurity, but, I don't know for a fact. I think that its caused by insecurity because I use to be insecure with my faith and with my religion and I remember being very sensitive to any idea that wasn't explicitly and gushingly positive or very sensitive to any potentially negative inferences.

I share my ideas to provide context, contrast, and balance to what is being said in the OP. If considered honestly and with sincerity it can be helpful in identifying what is the reality as to the question of "who is to blame".

-Finrock

Nice try, but if you didn't mean people's brains to read between the lines (unlikely), you can't blame them for the fact that the structure and context of the words set them up to read into it what was read into it. While it is true that you attempted to allow yourself plausible deniability, it remains implausible.

Sorry, but I place all responsibility on your words for creating the conclusion that your words were directed at the brethren as saying that they are Cult Leaders. You can't wiggle your way out of that one. Your context was loud and clear, and the responsibility for what you said of them is your own. I am an adult in my mid 40's and have self-published books and have a good command of the English language. I know exactly what you meant, and you meant what you said. There is no responsibility on me for this.

I understand that true Mormonism is not a cult... (Source: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=47511&p=832012&hilit=cult#p832012)

The Church isn't a dictatorship or a cult...(Source: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=47809&p=839489&hilit=cult#p839489)

The Church of Jesus Christ is not a cult...(Source: https://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewto ... lt#p815189)

-Finrock

[eddie]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8t5PXQX4E1o

I'm right here...hahaha

[EdGoble]

I understand that true Mormonism is not a cult... (Source: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=47511&p=832012&hilit=cult#p832012)

The Church isn't a dictatorship or a cult...(Source: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=47809&p=839489&hilit=cult#p839489)

The Church of Jesus Christ is not a cult...(Source: https://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewto ... lt#p815189)

-Finrock

The ball is still in your court.

Please explain yourself clearly in plainness what your context of bringing up cult leaders in relation to LDS leaders and what in the world you were trying to say. Because if it isn't what you meant to say, then I would say that you need to explain yourself. Because it still seems to me like you are differentiating "true Mormonism" from the corporation and still making the corporation and its leaders into something cult-like. I can't seem to come to any other conclusion on my own, but I'm willing to be taught here. Otherwise all I can do is read what I see.

All I can see is that you still were trying to insinuate something with what you were saying. What is it that you were trying to say if you were not trying to compare LDS leaders to cult leaders? You say that it is to provoke thought and contrast and comparison. What kind of contrast then? What kind of comparison? Let's quote you again:

Cult leaders always blame their underlings for not being righteous enough, or not sacrificing enough, or not understanding, or being unwilling to apply what is being taught, etc. The leaders of cults never take responsibility for their actions, for their own life, and for their own examples, and for what they teach. Its a form of emotional and psychological manipulation that allows them to remain in power and to keep the people under their control.

Cult leaders never apologize or publicly acknowledge their faults and mistakes but demand repentance and contrition from their followers.

-Finrock

Is it that they are "cult like" because their behavior is similar? Let's look at your words, interpolating what I think you are saying, and you can try to correct me. This isn't me trying to accuse you of anything. This is me trying to get you to clarify yourself. This is you insisting that I did not understand what you were saying, so now we perhaps may get you to somehow help us understand what you mean:

[LDS] leaders always blame their underlings for not being righteous enough, or not sacrificing enough, or not understanding, or being unwilling to apply what is being taught, etc. The leaders of [the LDS Religion] never take responsibility for their actions, for their own life, and for their own examples, and for what they teach. Its a form of emotional and psychological manipulation that allows them to remain in power and to keep the people under their control. [LDS] leaders never apologize or publicly acknowledge their faults and mistakes but demand repentance and contrition from their followers.

Did you not mean to say this? Therefore were you not likening LDS leaders to cult leaders? How is that much different than saying that they ARE? Please explain.

[Finrock]

I understand that true Mormonism is not a cult... (Source: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=47511&p=832012&hilit=cult#p832012)

The Church isn't a dictatorship or a cult...(Source: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=47809&p=839489&hilit=cult#p839489)

The Church of Jesus Christ is not a cult...(Source: https://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewto ... lt#p815189)

-Finrock

The ball is still in your court.

Please explain yourself clearly in plainness what your context of bringing up cult leaders in relation to LDS leaders and what in the world you were trying to say. Because if it isn't what you meant to say, then I would say that you need to explain yourself. Because it still seems to me like you are differentiating "true Mormonism" from the corporation and still making the corporation and its leaders into something cult-like. I can't seem to come to any other conclusion on my own, but I'm willing to be taught here. Otherwise all I can do is read what I see.

All I can see is that you still were trying to insinuate something with what you were saying. What is it that you were trying to say if you were not trying to compare LDS leaders to cult leaders? You say that it is to provoke thought and contrast and comparison. What kind of contrast then? What kind of comparison? Let's quote you again:

Cult leaders always blame their underlings for not being righteous enough, or not sacrificing enough, or not understanding, or being unwilling to apply what is being taught, etc. The leaders of cults never take responsibility for their actions, for their own life, and for their own examples, and for what they teach. Its a form of emotional and psychological manipulation that allows them to remain in power and to keep the people under their control.

Cult leaders never apologize or publicly acknowledge their faults and mistakes but demand repentance and contrition from their followers.

-Finrock

Is it that they are "cult like" because their behavior is similar? Let's look at your words, interpolating what I think you are saying, and you can try to correct me. This isn't me trying to accuse you of anything. This is me trying to get you to clarify yourself. This is you insisting that I did not understand what you were saying, so now we perhaps may get you to somehow help us understand what you mean:

[LDS] leaders always blame their underlings for not being righteous enough, or not sacrificing enough, or not understanding, or being unwilling to apply what is being taught, etc. The leaders of [the LDS Religion] never take responsibility for their actions, for their own life, and for their own examples, and for what they teach. Its a form of emotional and psychological manipulation that allows them to remain in power and to keep the people under their control. [LDS] leaders never apologize or publicly acknowledge their faults and mistakes but demand repentance and contrition from their followers.

Did you not mean to say this? Therefore were you not likening LDS leaders to cult leaders? How is that much different than saying that they ARE? Please explain.

We aren't a cult. My post provides facts as to how cults function and how cult leaders function. Cults and their leaders always blame the followers. Its never the leadership that has any blame or any accountability. If only the adherents were better, if only they would have listened, if only those sinful followers would have repented, then all the goals and all of the things that have been promised would have been fulfilled. Everything would be great if the followers didn't "suck" so bad.

The OP is saying that the members of the Church are to blame for there not being "more". In the OP the leaders are completely exonerated and held blameless. I also know that for some Mormons even the suggestion of leaders being to blame is unthinkable and/or "blasphemy".

We aren't a cult and because we aren't a cult, why are we afraid to explore the idea that the leaders might be accountable and that they are to blame? Or, alternatively, why are we afraid to explore the idea that both lay members and leaders are to blame to one degree or another (which is what I believe)?

-Finrock

[Mark]

I understand that true Mormonism is not a cult... (Source: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=47511&p=832012&hilit=cult#p832012)

The Church isn't a dictatorship or a cult...(Source: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=47809&p=839489&hilit=cult#p839489)

The Church of Jesus Christ is not a cult...(Source: https://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewto ... lt#p815189)

-Finrock

The ball is still in your court.

Please explain yourself clearly in plainness what your context of bringing up cult leaders in relation to LDS leaders and what in the world you were trying to say. Because if it isn't what you meant to say, then I would say that you need to explain yourself. Because it still seems to me like you are differentiating "true Mormonism" from the corporation and still making the corporation and its leaders into something cult-like. I can't seem to come to any other conclusion on my own, but I'm willing to be taught here. Otherwise all I can do is read what I see.

All I can see is that you still were trying to insinuate something with what you were saying. What is it that you were trying to say if you were not trying to compare LDS leaders to cult leaders? You say that it is to provoke thought and contrast and comparison. What kind of contrast then? What kind of comparison? Let's quote you again:

Cult leaders always blame their underlings for not being righteous enough, or not sacrificing enough, or not understanding, or being unwilling to apply what is being taught, etc. The leaders of cults never take responsibility for their actions, for their own life, and for their own examples, and for what they teach. Its a form of emotional and psychological manipulation that allows them to remain in power and to keep the people under their control.

Cult leaders never apologize or publicly acknowledge their faults and mistakes but demand repentance and contrition from their followers.

-Finrock

Is it that they are "cult like" because their behavior is similar? Let's look at your words, interpolating what I think you are saying, and you can try to correct me. This isn't me trying to accuse you of anything. This is me trying to get you to clarify yourself. This is you insisting that I did not understand what you were saying, so now we perhaps may get you to somehow help us understand what you mean:

[LDS] leaders always blame their underlings for not being righteous enough, or not sacrificing enough, or not understanding, or being unwilling to apply what is being taught, etc. The leaders of [the LDS Religion] never take responsibility for their actions, for their own life, and for their own examples, and for what they teach. Its a form of emotional and psychological manipulation that allows them to remain in power and to keep the people under their control. [LDS] leaders never apologize or publicly acknowledge their faults and mistakes but demand repentance and contrition from their followers.

Did you not mean to say this? Therefore were you not likening LDS leaders to cult leaders? How is that much different than saying that they ARE? Please explain.

We aren't a cult. My post provides facts as to how cults function and how cult leaders function. Cults and their leaders always blame the followers. Its never the leadership that has any blame or any accountability. If only the adherents were better, if only they would have listened, if only those sinful followers would have repented, then all the goals and all of the things that have been promised would have been fulfilled. Everything would be great if the followers didn't "suck" so bad.

The OP is saying that the members of the Church are to blame for there not being "more". In the OP the leaders are completely exonerated and held blameless. I also know that for some Mormons even the suggestion of leaders being to blame is unthinkable and/or "blasphemy".

We aren't a cult and because we aren't a cult, why are we afraid to explore the idea that the leaders might be accountable and that they are to blame? Or, alternatively, why are we afraid to explore the idea that both lay members and leaders are to blame to one degree or another (which is what I believe)?

-Finrock

How are the leadership to blame? What are they not teaching that they should be? Be specific please. Pres. Nelson gave a talk recently in conference on Priesthood power. Should he be concentrating on other subjects instead? What conference talks are you waiting to hear? What would Elder Finrock be preaching at conference that would be more helpful to membership?

[drtanner]

I understand that true Mormonism is not a cult... (Source: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=47511&p=832012&hilit=cult#p832012)

The Church isn't a dictatorship or a cult...(Source: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=47809&p=839489&hilit=cult#p839489)

The Church of Jesus Christ is not a cult...(Source: https://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewto ... lt#p815189)

-Finrock

The ball is still in your court.

Please explain yourself clearly in plainness what your context of bringing up cult leaders in relation to LDS leaders and what in the world you were trying to say. Because if it isn't what you meant to say, then I would say that you need to explain yourself. Because it still seems to me like you are differentiating "true Mormonism" from the corporation and still making the corporation and its leaders into something cult-like. I can't seem to come to any other conclusion on my own, but I'm willing to be taught here. Otherwise all I can do is read what I see.

All I can see is that you still were trying to insinuate something with what you were saying. What is it that you were trying to say if you were not trying to compare LDS leaders to cult leaders? You say that it is to provoke thought and contrast and comparison. What kind of contrast then? What kind of comparison? Let's quote you again:

Cult leaders always blame their underlings for not being righteous enough, or not sacrificing enough, or not understanding, or being unwilling to apply what is being taught, etc. The leaders of cults never take responsibility for their actions, for their own life, and for their own examples, and for what they teach. Its a form of emotional and psychological manipulation that allows them to remain in power and to keep the people under their control.

Cult leaders never apologize or publicly acknowledge their faults and mistakes but demand repentance and contrition from their followers.

-Finrock

Is it that they are "cult like" because their behavior is similar? Let's look at your words, interpolating what I think you are saying, and you can try to correct me. This isn't me trying to accuse you of anything. This is me trying to get you to clarify yourself. This is you insisting that I did not understand what you were saying, so now we perhaps may get you to somehow help us understand what you mean:

[LDS] leaders always blame their underlings for not being righteous enough, or not sacrificing enough, or not understanding, or being unwilling to apply what is being taught, etc. The leaders of [the LDS Religion] never take responsibility for their actions, for their own life, and for their own examples, and for what they teach. Its a form of emotional and psychological manipulation that allows them to remain in power and to keep the people under their control. [LDS] leaders never apologize or publicly acknowledge their faults and mistakes but demand repentance and contrition from their followers.

Did you not mean to say this? Therefore were you not likening LDS leaders to cult leaders? How is that much different than saying that they ARE? Please explain.

We aren't a cult. My post provides facts as to how cults function and how cult leaders function. Cults and their leaders always blame the followers. Its never the leadership that has any blame or any accountability. If only the adherents were better, if only they would have listened, if only those sinful followers would have repented, then all the goals and all of the things that have been promised would have been fulfilled. Everything would be great if the followers didn't "suck" so bad.

The OP is saying that the members of the Church are to blame for there not being "more". In the OP the leaders are completely exonerated and held blameless. I also know that for some Mormons even the suggestion of leaders being to blame is unthinkable and/or "blasphemy".

We aren't a cult and because we aren't a cult, why are we afraid to explore the idea that the leaders might be accountable and that they are to blame? Or, alternatively, why are we afraid to explore the idea that both lay members and leaders are to blame to one degree or another (which is what I believe)?

-Finrock

Keep in mind some of the leadership mentioned were Moses, Lehi and Nephi, followed by examples of what they specifically mention prevented real understanding and experiences from the scriptures. Under your definition you are also accusing them and grouping them into cult leadership based on their words. Does Nephi not blame Laman and Lemuel for there own lack of real understanding? Also somehow that turned into our leaders were completely exonerated and held blameless, not sure where that came from, certainly not the point of the post.

[Finrock]

-Finrock

The ball is still in your court.

Please explain yourself clearly in plainness what your context of bringing up cult leaders in relation to LDS leaders and what in the world you were trying to say. Because if it isn't what you meant to say, then I would say that you need to explain yourself. Because it still seems to me like you are differentiating "true Mormonism" from the corporation and still making the corporation and its leaders into something cult-like. I can't seem to come to any other conclusion on my own, but I'm willing to be taught here. Otherwise all I can do is read what I see.

All I can see is that you still were trying to insinuate something with what you were saying. What is it that you were trying to say if you were not trying to compare LDS leaders to cult leaders? You say that it is to provoke thought and contrast and comparison. What kind of contrast then? What kind of comparison? Let's quote you again:

Cult leaders always blame their underlings for not being righteous enough, or not sacrificing enough, or not understanding, or being unwilling to apply what is being taught, etc. The leaders of cults never take responsibility for their actions, for their own life, and for their own examples, and for what they teach. Its a form of emotional and psychological manipulation that allows them to remain in power and to keep the people under their control.

Cult leaders never apologize or publicly acknowledge their faults and mistakes but demand repentance and contrition from their followers.

-Finrock

Is it that they are "cult like" because their behavior is similar? Let's look at your words, interpolating what I think you are saying, and you can try to correct me. This isn't me trying to accuse you of anything. This is me trying to get you to clarify yourself. This is you insisting that I did not understand what you were saying, so now we perhaps may get you to somehow help us understand what you mean:

[LDS] leaders always blame their underlings for not being righteous enough, or not sacrificing enough, or not understanding, or being unwilling to apply what is being taught, etc. The leaders of [the LDS Religion] never take responsibility for their actions, for their own life, and for their own examples, and for what they teach. Its a form of emotional and psychological manipulation that allows them to remain in power and to keep the people under their control. [LDS] leaders never apologize or publicly acknowledge their faults and mistakes but demand repentance and contrition from their followers.

Did you not mean to say this? Therefore were you not likening LDS leaders to cult leaders? How is that much different than saying that they ARE? Please explain.

We aren't a cult. My post provides facts as to how cults function and how cult leaders function. Cults and their leaders always blame the followers. Its never the leadership that has any blame or any accountability. If only the adherents were better, if only they would have listened, if only those sinful followers would have repented, then all the goals and all of the things that have been promised would have been fulfilled. Everything would be great if the followers didn't "suck" so bad.

The OP is saying that the members of the Church are to blame for there not being "more". In the OP the leaders are completely exonerated and held blameless. I also know that for some Mormons even the suggestion of leaders being to blame is unthinkable and/or "blasphemy".

We aren't a cult and because we aren't a cult, why are we afraid to explore the idea that the leaders might be accountable and that they are to blame? Or, alternatively, why are we afraid to explore the idea that both lay members and leaders are to blame to one degree or another (which is what I believe)?

-Finrock

How are the leadership to blame? What are they not teaching that they should be? Be specific please. Pres. Nelson gave a talk recently in conference on Priesthood power. Should he be concentrating on other subjects instead? What conference talks are you waiting to hear? What would Elder Finrock be preaching at conference that would be more helpful to membership?

Have the leaders always taught correct doctrine? Lets just explore this question for starters.

And, before we get too far in to this, Mark, please don't respond unless you are going to be sincere and with real intent. I'm not interested in ad hominems, insincere comments, attempts to belittle me, etc. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here so please don't disappoint because this can be a good conversation. Please and thank you.

-Finrock

[Finrock]

-Finrock

The ball is still in your court.

Please explain yourself clearly in plainness what your context of bringing up cult leaders in relation to LDS leaders and what in the world you were trying to say. Because if it isn't what you meant to say, then I would say that you need to explain yourself. Because it still seems to me like you are differentiating "true Mormonism" from the corporation and still making the corporation and its leaders into something cult-like. I can't seem to come to any other conclusion on my own, but I'm willing to be taught here. Otherwise all I can do is read what I see.

All I can see is that you still were trying to insinuate something with what you were saying. What is it that you were trying to say if you were not trying to compare LDS leaders to cult leaders? You say that it is to provoke thought and contrast and comparison. What kind of contrast then? What kind of comparison? Let's quote you again:

Cult leaders always blame their underlings for not being righteous enough, or not sacrificing enough, or not understanding, or being unwilling to apply what is being taught, etc. The leaders of cults never take responsibility for their actions, for their own life, and for their own examples, and for what they teach. Its a form of emotional and psychological manipulation that allows them to remain in power and to keep the people under their control.

Cult leaders never apologize or publicly acknowledge their faults and mistakes but demand repentance and contrition from their followers.

-Finrock

Is it that they are "cult like" because their behavior is similar? Let's look at your words, interpolating what I think you are saying, and you can try to correct me. This isn't me trying to accuse you of anything. This is me trying to get you to clarify yourself. This is you insisting that I did not understand what you were saying, so now we perhaps may get you to somehow help us understand what you mean:

[LDS] leaders always blame their underlings for not being righteous enough, or not sacrificing enough, or not understanding, or being unwilling to apply what is being taught, etc. The leaders of [the LDS Religion] never take responsibility for their actions, for their own life, and for their own examples, and for what they teach. Its a form of emotional and psychological manipulation that allows them to remain in power and to keep the people under their control. [LDS] leaders never apologize or publicly acknowledge their faults and mistakes but demand repentance and contrition from their followers.

Did you not mean to say this? Therefore were you not likening LDS leaders to cult leaders? How is that much different than saying that they ARE? Please explain.

We aren't a cult. My post provides facts as to how cults function and how cult leaders function. Cults and their leaders always blame the followers. Its never the leadership that has any blame or any accountability. If only the adherents were better, if only they would have listened, if only those sinful followers would have repented, then all the goals and all of the things that have been promised would have been fulfilled. Everything would be great if the followers didn't "suck" so bad.

The OP is saying that the members of the Church are to blame for there not being "more". In the OP the leaders are completely exonerated and held blameless. I also know that for some Mormons even the suggestion of leaders being to blame is unthinkable and/or "blasphemy".

We aren't a cult and because we aren't a cult, why are we afraid to explore the idea that the leaders might be accountable and that they are to blame? Or, alternatively, why are we afraid to explore the idea that both lay members and leaders are to blame to one degree or another (which is what I believe)?

-Finrock

Keep in mind some of the leadership mentioned were Moses, Lehi and Nephi, followed by examples of what they specifically mention prevented real understanding and experiences from the scriptures. Under your definition you are also accusing them and grouping them into cult leadership based on their words. Does Nephi not blame Laman and Lemuel for there own lack of real understanding? Also somehow that turned into our leaders were completely exonerated and held blameless, not sure where that came from, certainly not the point of the post.

For starters, why do you think Moses was never allowed to get to the promised land? He only got to see it before he died.

-Finrock

[Finrock]

Also somehow that turned into our leaders were completely exonerated and held blameless, not sure where that came from, certainly not the point of the post.

Then lets make it clear: Are you saying the lay members are to blame or are you saying the leaders are to blame? In your post did you or do you believe the leaders have any responsibility?

-Finrock

[Finrock]

Under your definition you are also accusing them and grouping them into cult leadership based on their words.

Before I accept this statement and before you continue to make it, please prove it. Please show me specifically where I've accused anyone of anything in my post. If you can't demonstrate it, please don't perpetuate it. Thank you!

-Finrock