Topic about avoiding contention, personal experiences etc.

[Finrock]

It's pretty hard to avoid contention when someone makes a posting like this-that is, if we wish to participate in a discussion on what was shared. Seems like we are supposed to just treat it like some kind of blog posting that doesn't allow comments, if we want to avoid contention.

Why is it hard? Its easy for me to avoid contention with posts like this or with any posts really. Here are some tips that might help:

One way that you avoid contentious posts is don't make things personal. Don't start calling people names, accusing them, etc. Simply by avoiding that type of behavior will almost guarantee that there won't be contention. Believe the best of people even if you don't believe or agree with what they say. Allow people to be who they are and accept that not everyone that disagrees with you in points of doctrine or truth are "evil" or bad people, apostate, "fake Mormons" etc. In fact, contention disappears when we stop thinking things like we are "real" Mormons while other Mormons are not because they think different, understand differently, etc. Anyone, anywhere, at all times can disagree without being contentious. People don't have to agree with each other in order to at least understand one another. In one word: Respect.

-Finrock

Twlight Zone.gif

I think its kinda cute that you're just having your own conversation in your own little world.

-Finrock

[kittycat51]

Something I never really seem to understand is why there are post of various claims or experiences shared that involve sharing enough info to peak interest and questions but not enough info to calm those questions to a peaceful state to allow others to actually ponder and think on them.

Please I ask, if something is not meant to be known by others it's kind to completely refrain from speaking of it. If others are meant to know then perhaps they will receive their own experiences and knowledge.

I'm not trying to shoot you down in the least, it's just hard when people do these things. People want to believe and learn new things and have new or better insights and I think some can really be led to wild ideas when only half statements and half info is given.

Someone who truly does care and wants to bless and help others should and would be careful that their words do not cause anyone to err on their path.

If someone knows why the brethren have to be careful in their office they should say so. Why be secretive? We all live in the same world and are aware of the lack of privacy we have and how the world and government and whoever could really twist and turn the things we teach and believe into some pretty negative light. I means just the mention of angels can make one look like a nutcase in the real world.

But saying they can't speak in their offices and not saying why really leaves much to the imagination and could be unsettling for people. We are taught good things about the brethren and that they are honest, loving, faithful, good men who all work together in unison in their messages to the church. Knowing that at work they cannot be these things freely is bothersome and raises concern to why.

I'm sorry. You are right. I should have kept MY mouth shut. I just wanted to stand up for waialeale and not want him ridiculed for what he said as something being false. It's just to much for the common person to believe what the church is up against sometimes. To most it would fall under the "conspiracy" theme.

I need to address the conspiracy theme because I believe that most LDS people don't get it when we should. The gadiantons of the Book of Mormon thrived and lived off of conspiracy.

Definition of Conspiracy: A secret plan by a group to do something unlawful or harmful. The action of plotting or conspiring...plot, scheme, plan, machination, ploy, trick, ruse, subterfuge;

Gadianton = Conspiracy. That is their motto. They would do ANYTHING to take down the people and the Church of God. It is every bit as rampant in our day as it was back then...I dare say more so now. Up to a half a dozen years ago, Gadianton meant nothing more to me than the mafia or gangs. Oh it is SO much MORE and it has it's tentacles in everything. When I woke up and came to that realization is was more than I could handle. I was truly in a shock mode for quite some time.

In October 2016 General Conference President Nelson stated:

These are the latter days, so none of us should be surprised when we see prophecy fulfilled. A host of prophets, including Isaiah, Paul, Nephi, and Mormon, foresaw that perilous times would come, that in our day the whole world would be in commotion, that men would “be lovers of their own selves, … without natural affection, … lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God,” and that many would become servants of Satan who uphold the adversary’s work. Indeed, you and I “wrestle … against the rulers of the darkness of this world, [and] against spiritual wickedness in high places.”

As conflicts between nations escalate, as cowardly terrorists prey on the innocent, and as corruption in everything from business to government becomes increasingly commonplace..." ~ President Nelson (President of quorum of 12 apostles at this time)

Now having said this you are aware that every text, phone call or email you make is recorded by the government? We have a huge NSA building not far from where I live here in Utah. All this type of information is stored in that building. All of course in the name of national security. Do you not think that maybe the Church does not want everything they speak about recorded? There is evil out there i.e. "conspiracies", that are waiting/wanting to take the Church down. (From the scriptures we know who the leader of all conspiracies is)

When I think about the Gadiantons of our day, again I will say many people don't have a clue. It all reminds me of the quote from the movie "A Few Good Men"

"I WANT THE TRUTH...response "You can't handle the truth"

It's time to wake up to the "awfulness of our situation".

[eddie]

It's pretty hard to avoid contention when someone makes a posting like this-that is, if we wish to participate in a discussion on what was shared. Seems like we are supposed to just treat it like some kind of blog posting that doesn't allow comments, if we want to avoid contention.

Why is it hard? Its easy for me to avoid contention with posts like this or with any posts really. Here are some tips that might help:

One way that you avoid contentious posts is don't make things personal. Don't start calling people names, accusing them, etc. Simply by avoiding that type of behavior will almost guarantee that there won't be contention. Believe the best of people even if you don't believe or agree with what they say. Allow people to be who they are and accept that not everyone that disagrees with you in points of doctrine or truth are "evil" or bad people, apostate, "fake Mormons" etc. In fact, contention disappears when we stop thinking things like we are "real" Mormons while other Mormons are not because they think different, understand differently, etc. Anyone, anywhere, at all times can disagree without being contentious. People don't have to agree with each other in order to at least understand one another. In one word: Respect.

-Finrock

Twlight Zone.gif

I think its kinda cute that you're just having your own conversation in your own little world.

-Finrock

Jack.gif (247.3 KiB) Viewed 758 times

[AI2.0]

Something I never really seem to understand is why there are post of various claims or experiences shared that involve sharing enough info to peak interest and questions but not enough info to calm those questions to a peaceful state to allow others to actually ponder and think on them.

Please I ask, if something is not meant to be known by others it's kind to completely refrain from speaking of it. If others are meant to know then perhaps they will receive their own experiences and knowledge.

I'm not trying to shoot you down in the least, it's just hard when people do these things. People want to believe and learn new things and have new or better insights and I think some can really be led to wild ideas when only half statements and half info is given.

Someone who truly does care and wants to bless and help others should and would be careful that their words do not cause anyone to err on their path.

If someone knows why the brethren have to be careful in their office they should say so. Why be secretive? We all live in the same world and are aware of the lack of privacy we have and how the world and government and whoever could really twist and turn the things we teach and believe into some pretty negative light. I means just the mention of angels can make one look like a nutcase in the real world.

But saying they can't speak in their offices and not saying why really leaves much to the imagination and could be unsettling for people. We are taught good things about the brethren and that they are honest, loving, faithful, good men who all work together in unison in their messages to the church. Knowing that at work they cannot be these things freely is bothersome and raises concern to why.

I'm sorry. You are right. I should have kept MY mouth shut. I just wanted to stand up for waialeale and not want him ridiculed for what he said as something being false. It's just to much for the common person to believe what the church is up against sometimes. To most it would fall under the "conspiracy" theme.

I need to address the conspiracy theme because I believe that most LDS people don't get it when we should. The gadiantons of the Book of Mormon thrived and lived off of conspiracy.

Definition of Conspiracy: A secret plan by a group to do something unlawful or harmful. The action of plotting or conspiring...plot, scheme, plan, machination, ploy, trick, ruse, subterfuge;

Gadianton = Conspiracy. That is their motto. They would do ANYTHING to take down the people and the Church of God. It is every bit as rampant in our day as it was back then...I dare say more so now. Up to a half a dozen years ago, Gadianton meant nothing more to me than the mafia or gangs. Oh it is SO much MORE and it has it's tentacles in everything. When I woke up and came to that realization is was more than I could handle. I was truly in a shock mode for quite some time.

In October 2016 General Conference President Nelson stated:

These are the latter days, so none of us should be surprised when we see prophecy fulfilled. A host of prophets, including Isaiah, Paul, Nephi, and Mormon, foresaw that perilous times would come, that in our day the whole world would be in commotion, that men would “be lovers of their own selves, … without natural affection, … lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God,” and that many would become servants of Satan who uphold the adversary’s work. Indeed, you and I “wrestle … against the rulers of the darkness of this world, [and] against spiritual wickedness in high places.”

As conflicts between nations escalate, as cowardly terrorists prey on the innocent, and as corruption in everything from business to government becomes increasingly commonplace..." ~ President Nelson (President of quorum of 12 apostles at this time)

Now having said this you are aware that every text, phone call or email you make is recorded by the government? We have a huge NSA building not far from where I live here in Utah. All this type of information is stored in that building. All of course in the name of national security. Do you not think that maybe the Church does not want everything they speak about recorded? There is evil out there i.e. "conspiracies", that are waiting/wanting to take the Church down. (From the scriptures we know who the leader of all conspiracies is)

When I think about the Gadiantons of our day, again I will say many people don't have a clue. It all reminds me of the quote from the movie "A Few Good Men"

"I WANT THE TRUTH...response "You can't handle the truth"

It's time to wake up to the "awfulness of our situation".

I understand that but Waialeale said;

A few years ago I had a private one on one meeting with Elder Scott away from SLC (the brethren have to be extremely careful what they say in their offices as so much is monitored)

He's saying they can't talk openly in their own offices, but can talk openly when they are out of town. That doesn't fit what you are saying, since NSA monitors all phones, email etc. all over the country(leaving town won't make a difference) and NSA does not record the phone calls of Americans(at least not purposefully) so they would not be responsible for tapping church offices.

I just think that some of you don't even read these posts, posts are just skimmed, it seems, and words of praise and encouragement are offered to make the person feel better. IMO, Waialeale's comments were controversial and yet, I'm not supposed to question? Seriously, you'd think more of you would be interested in who Waialeale claims is monitoring the Apostles' offices and why they are free to speak openly when not in Salt Lake City.

[Zathura]

.

[Juliet]

Something I never really seem to understand is why there are post of various claims or experiences shared that involve sharing enough info to peak interest and questions but not enough info to calm those questions to a peaceful state to allow others to actually ponder and think on them.

Please I ask, if something is not meant to be known by others it's kind to completely refrain from speaking of it. If others are meant to know then perhaps they will receive their own experiences and knowledge.

I'm not trying to shoot you down in the least, it's just hard when people do these things. People want to believe and learn new things and have new or better insights and I think some can really be led to wild ideas when only half statements and half info is given.

Someone who truly does care and wants to bless and help others should and would be careful that their words do not cause anyone to err on their path.

If someone knows why the brethren have to be careful in their office they should say so. Why be secretive? We all live in the same world and are aware of the lack of privacy we have and how the world and government and whoever could really twist and turn the things we teach and believe into some pretty negative light. I means just the mention of angels can make one look like a nutcase in the real world.

But saying they can't speak in their offices and not saying why really leaves much to the imagination and could be unsettling for people. We are taught good things about the brethren and that they are honest, loving, faithful, good men who all work together in unison in their messages to the church. Knowing that at work they cannot be these things freely is bothersome and raises concern to why.

The OP referred us to this quote:

Remember that the very worst enemies that we've had are those that are within the Church. It was Judas that betrayed the Master. . . . today it's the same. the greatest and worst enemies we have in the Church today are those within our ranks.
(Harold B. Lee. CES address. BYU, 8 July 1966)

I don't think we need it to be spelled out for us and it makes sense as to why.

[waialeale]

Hello all, so sorry to have been away traveling in Central America and unable to reply until now. I think some contention and fallen nature patterns have entered into this thread. Imagine if we all could only say positive things. Sure questions and clarifications and wanting to know the truth of something can all be accomplished with the spirit of our God vs the harsh rigid methods of men. If we each knew one another personally and had learned to love one another, say in a ward family over a long period of time would there not be a different spirit in our gospel conversations? I will be happy to get to each comment and question just as soon as able to do so.

[marc]

There will always be opposition in all things. I have observed, for example that many claim to believe in the eleventh article of faith, unless...

Or agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him, unless...

But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also, unless...

But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you, unless...

Many claim to believe in all such things, including the two great commandments...unless, except for, however, until, but because of reasons they don't, which are then demonstrated by their actions to the contrary. There's always that little disclaimer, that caveat, that proviso, that condition, clause, restriction, etc.

We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may, unless...

[eddie]

There will always be opposition in all things. I have observed, for example that many claim to believe in the eleventh article of faith, unless...

Or agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him, unless...

But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also, unless...

But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you, unless...

Many claim to believe in all such things, including the two great commandments...unless, except for, however, until, but because of reasons they don't, which are then demonstrated by their actions to the contrary. There's always that little disclaimer, that caveat, that proviso, that condition, clause, restriction, etc.

We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may, unless...

I wouldn't call your remarks contentious, but they are very defensive, something has changed, what is it?

As in all things,look to the Savior as our Exemplar, he faced tremendous hostility.

[eddie]

Peace – A Triumph of Principles | Marvin J. Ashton
Never will peace and hatred be able to abide in the same soul. Permanent peace will elude those individuals or groups whose objective is to condemn, discredit, rail at, or tear down those whose beliefs are different from their own. These people live by hatred and would destroy others insofar as it is in their power to do so. True Christians have no time for contention. Lasting peace cannot be built while we are reviling or hating others. Those who preach hate, ridicule, and untruths cannot be classified as peacemakers. Until they repent they will reap the harvest to which those engaged in the business of hatred are entitled. Feelings of enmity and malice can never be compatible with feelings of peace.

[marc]

I wouldn't call your remarks contentious, but they are very defensive, something has changed, what is it?

As in all things,look to the Savior as our Exemplar, he faced tremendous hostility.

Nothing in my life has changed, but I suppose one could say it is contrarian in a topic of contraries, especially with regard to "avoiding contention." I tend to be vocal in my observations in one form or another, sometimes inadvertently resorting to the Socratic method, which I think can be offensive to some. On the other hand, where a formal debate involves two clearly opposing sides presenting their opposing views supported with statistics, metrics, observations, etc leaving out personal attacks and ad hominems, discussions such as this tend to devolve into arguments, resulting in getting personal rather than addressing the issue and either side of the issue emerging mutually edified. If we can get to the root cause of a problem, finding and applying the solution becomes quite simple.

[AI2.0]

Alright, well, It seems that most on this thread want no contention--and it seems that the only way to avoid contention is to accept the premise that when we were warned about 'enemies within the church' that meant among church administration--and the consensus appears to be that the majority on this thread agree with the OP, that those enemies reside in the church office building; they've infiltrated the upper eschelons and present themselves as good LDS, but are secretly intimidating and monitoring the righteous church leaders-- preventing them from speaking openly in their offices--as claimed by the OP. Since I don't believe this, my questioning and disagreeing is seen as 'contentious'. Best to drop it.

And, I guess most of you don't have any questions about his 'hidden tribe' in central america (and he's not forthcoming on it either) so there's no point even asking.

[Zathura]

Alright, well, It seems that most on this thread want no contention--and it seems that the only way to avoid contention is to accept the premise that when we were warned about 'enemies within the church' that meant among church administration--and the consensus appears to be that the majority on this thread agree with the OP, that those enemies reside in the church office building; they've infiltrated the upper eschelons and present themselves as good LDS, but are secretly intimidating and monitoring the righteous church leaders-- preventing them from speaking openly in their offices--as claimed by the OP. Since I don't believe this, my questioning and disagreeing is seen as 'contentious'. Best to drop it.

And, I guess most of you don't have any questions about his 'hidden tribe' in central america (and he's not forthcoming on it either) so there's no point even asking.

There is a point in asking. I asked him about it in PM and he provided me with a book of about 60 pages which I read. If you ask, he will answer. I am just as skeptical as you are, I imagine most are. I think that can go unsaid with such extraordinary claims.

[kittycat51]

And, I guess most of you don't have any questions about his 'hidden tribe' in central america (and he's not forthcoming on it either) so there's no point even asking.

Ok this made me raise my eyebrows too. But I'm sure a better knowledge of the actual facts surrounding this would smooth that brow of mine.
But for now, unless further information is given, I will file this in my brain as "something I heard but can't validate".

[The Airbender]

Thank you. This was beautiful, well-written and very timely.

[The Airbender]

I'm glad others enjoyed his post; the scriptures and quotes were great.

But, I got sidetracked by the references to 'friends' in mexico who are 'fair skinned' and 'hidden of the Lord' who will be involved in the winding up scenes. Sounds like the kind of stuff that causes contentious debates on this forum, when someone shares their personal revelations and we're all supposed to just accept it as truth. And, I was totally perplexed by the claim that our LDS Apostles can't speak in their offices for fear they are being monitored. Monitored by whom? Big bad brother LDS church??... which they are the administrators of? That's tin foil stuff--which is always contentious if discussed here, since a lot of us don't believe the church is run in such a manner.

It's pretty hard to avoid contention when someone makes a posting like this-that is, if we wish to participate in a discussion on what was shared. Seems like we are supposed to just treat it like some kind of blog posting that doesn't allow comments, if we want to avoid contention.

I found nothing in this post that made me feel contentious. The comments about the "hidden" group in Mexico confirms other ideas and stories I've heard and read.

As far as the quote about the Brethren not being allowed to speak in their offices, I have believed this for awhile now. It's nothing new to me.

There is nothing contentious in his post. There is only contention for someone who does not like what is written and is more open to feeling contentious than asking the spirit if it is true. Even if it is false, there is no reason to get worked up about it.

[The Airbender]

I'm glad others enjoyed his post; the scriptures and quotes were great.

But, I got sidetracked by the references to 'friends' in mexico who are 'fair skinned' and 'hidden of the Lord' who will be involved in the winding up scenes. Sounds like the kind of stuff that causes contentious debates on this forum, when someone shares their personal revelations and we're all supposed to just accept it as truth. And, I was totally perplexed by the claim that our LDS Apostles can't speak in their offices for fear they are being monitored. Monitored by whom? Big bad brother LDS church??... which they are the administrators of? That's tin foil stuff--which is always contentious if discussed here, since a lot of us don't believe the church is run in such a manner.

It's pretty hard to avoid contention when someone makes a posting like this-that is, if we wish to participate in a discussion on what was shared. Seems like we are supposed to just treat it like some kind of blog posting that doesn't allow comments, if we want to avoid contention.

Alternatively, if you don’t want to just “move on”, you can focus on the scriptures he used. Give alternate interpretations of them that you’ve seen in books you personally believe in. That opens up a scripture based discussion, no need to talk about his claims.

Agreed. His claims are very scriptural. If we are to disagree, we should at least show where the scriptures support our disagreement.

[eddie]

This is how I see everybody looking when they lose an argument...

Forum Nerd.gif (606.14 KiB) Viewed 1773 times

[waialeale]

Peace – A Triumph of Principles | Marvin J. Ashton
Never will peace and hatred be able to abide in the same soul. Permanent peace will elude those individuals or groups whose objective is to condemn, discredit, rail at, or tear down those whose beliefs are different from their own. These people live by hatred and would destroy others insofar as it is in their power to do so. True Christians have no time for contention. Lasting peace cannot be built while we are reviling or hating others. Those who preach hate, ridicule, and untruths cannot be classified as peacemakers. Until they repent they will reap the harvest to which those engaged in the business of hatred are entitled. Feelings of enmity and malice can never be compatible with feelings of peace.

Thank you so much for this!!! It is so spot on! I so love Elder Ashton! He was such a good example of what he said above.

[waialeale]

Appreciate all the comments and perspectives shared.

[Crackers]

Alright, well, It seems that most on this thread want no contention--and it seems that the only way to avoid contention is to accept the premise that when we were warned about 'enemies within the church' that meant among church administration--and the consensus appears to be that the majority on this thread agree with the OP, that those enemies reside in the church office building; they've infiltrated the upper eschelons and present themselves as good LDS, but are secretly intimidating and monitoring the righteous church leaders-- preventing them from speaking openly in their offices--as claimed by the OP. Since I don't believe this, my questioning and disagreeing is seen as 'contentious'. Best to drop it.

And, I guess most of you don't have any questions about his 'hidden tribe' in central america (and he's not forthcoming on it either) so there's no point even asking.

Hmmm, although the OP makes a nice headline, I too feel the need to dissent regarding some of the specifics. Whereas AI2.0 has already done a pretty good job of that, I will simply add that I recalled a couple of other posts from the same OP-ster that seemed to be a hair "contentious," one about the possibility of too much money being spent on temples, and one about Elder Ballard potentially preaching falsely. As long as one puts forth these ideas with effusive evidence as to his own deep spirituality and understanding, are we not supposed to contest these and other ideas?

If someone wants to put forth controversial ideas, I have no problem with that, but we shouldn't expect a lack of contention when we put forth contentious ideas.

[jadd]

For kicks and giggles I looked up the definition of contention in 1828. It is defined as 2. Strife in words or debate; quarrel; angry contest; controversy. So I looked up strife its definition is 1. Exertion or contention for superiority; contest of emulation, either by intellectual or physical efforts. strife may be carried on between students or between mechanics. So basically contention is when you exert yourself through debate to be superior over the other person. In other words if you are arguing because you think your point of view is better (superior) rather than to find truth - it is contentious. If you think or believe you are superior - then it is contentious. If it is to teach or to discuss with the goal of finding truth (even if you are not convinced of the other side = not contentious. Mormons inherently are contentious when we hear ideas that conflict our worldview because we have "the truth." While we do have truth - we do not have nor have we obtained all truth and and understanding of all paths to know truth or every scenario in which that truth becomes an untruth. If for example you feel inspired to rebuke someone because of their "false" notions or their false notions, then it should be done under the direction of D&C 121 - given with love, followed by an increase in love, rather than a self-righteous desire to feel superior to the person with whom we disagree.

Anyways, just a few thoughts, take what you will from it and may we all seek and discover truth - within ourselves and the truth outside of ourselves as well.
Also, no matter what we've done (with the exception of the unpardonable sin) we can always be forgiven and God will help us change - because he loves us and he loves you. May God's grace find all of us.