What are you doing to follow the Prophet?

[Hie'ing to Kolob]

Church leaders have historically made mistakes - something the Church now admits FYI. These aren't minor things like paint color, but pretty big deal caliber mistskes. To me the pertinent questions are:

1) Can a Prophet make serious mistakes and inject false doctrine into the Church and the Church still be "true"? - I would argue yes, but defenders of Prophet near-infallibility run into a difficult dilemna with this concept.

2) If we accept that Prophets are capable of erring in doctrine, and its therefore possible to be asked by them to believe in something or do something against the will of God. Are you better off to follow a Prophet into sin and error to maintain your obediance, or are you better off to reject the message? If you pray about it (e.g., Polygamy) and you feel that God is not behind it, how do you reconcile that your message from God is different from that of his Prophet?

This is seriously a concept I have really been struggling with. Im not trying to provoke debate for debate sake, but looking for help in reconciling this.

I will address your first point for you. If you look in section 107 where the Lord outlines His Priesthood Govt., You will see that the Lord has already provided a remedy for your concerns. It is a very effective system and works very well. The Lords church is setup to take care of any false doctrine or transgression that could introduced into the body by a Prophet. The sustained quorums are well equipped to handle those potentialities. It is an inspired system.

82 And inasmuch as a President of the High Priesthood shall transgress, he shall be had in remembrance before the common council of the church, who shall be assisted by twelve counselors of the High Priesthood;

83 And their decision upon his head shall be an end of controversy concerning him.

84 Thus, none shall be exempted from the justice and the laws of God, that all things may be done in order and in solemnity before him, according to truth and righteousness.

The Constitution guarantees that I will be protected from unreasonable searches and seizures by the government. Its an inspired document, the Constitution, and our form of government is an inspired system.

We have the principle (a triangle) and what really happens (squiggly, distorted triangle).

Look, what has been the result on this forum of just me making historically factual/accurate statements. Brigham Young taught false doctrine and very negatively influenced thousands (millions?) of Mormons for generations to come to believe that black African people are cursed and made to be servants to white people because they, the dark skinned Africans, were less valiant in the pre-mortal existence. This evil doctrine has perpetuated and resulted in Mormons justifying and accepting racism and elitism, thus this doctrine has actively lead to separation as opposed to the "oneness" of Zion. This damnable and false doctrine (which is still influencing and affecting Mormons negatively to this day) was NOT corrected by the means you outlined. A statement was made in 2014 or so by the Church's PR department denouncing this and other racist doctrines that were taught by Presidents and apostles of the Church in the past.

-Finrock

Finrock - the priesthood ban is especially problematic. This is a case where the Prophet appears to be wrong. In fact, as you point out, current Prophets have stated that there was no revelation supporting it, there was no revealed doctrine sustaining it, it was a result of racist ideology which was common at the time -remained unchallenged until 1978!!!!! The reason it was unchallenged was because of how emphatic BY and others were about it. How could they clearly contradict prior prophets? As a missionary in the 1990's I defended this position with all my heart. Teaching people (black people) about how this was God's will and direction through his prophets. I can't imagine how it would be to receive such a message had I been in their shoes.

[Finrock]

The problem is with how leaders are prioritized by many members (a whole lot of members) above other people and other things when this prioritization is not justified and when in fact this prioritization is spiritually harmful. Although we are not a cult, many members of the Church treat our leaders as if they were a part of a cult. Unquestioning loyalty, you can't fault the leaders, almost unquestioning obedience to anything they say (whether spiritual or secular) because one received a witness that they are a prophet of God, treating the leaders like celebrities, and in some cases behavior that is akin to worshiping the leaders.

Why don't Mormons get all giddy, excited, and line up and wait for hours to shake the hand of the "lost sheep" or brother/sister so-and-so? Why aren't we celebrating the lives of the inactives, the lonely, downtrodden, or the depressed? Imagine what light we could introduce in to the world if we treated every member of the Church or every person as good as Mormons treat their prophets, their apostles?

What if you had the same love for your fellow man as you do for the "brethren"? What if you defended the least member among us as vigorously and as loyally as many members defend the leaders? What if every person was treated and viewed through the same prism/glass/light as the apostles are?

-Finrock

You seem to always take a valid point and turn into an opportunity to deride others who are failing your fault-finding, in your mind. Rather than find fault give us examples of what you are doing and find a way to say it that does not indict everyone and teaches something we can accept.
Though it is off topic, since you brought it up I will tell you what I do and in this what I am doing is following the teachings of the prophets and the Lord, which is the topic. I invite those who are "lost sheep" (and those who are not) to my home, I spend time talking to them and trying to be their friend, I go out of my way to shake their hand and welcome them, smile at them and try to show them that someone at church (or wherever I am) cares. If I get an opportunity to serve them, emergency or not, I jump on it. I see them in my heart, mind and opinion as just as important as anyone else. Even people who really (rhymes with this) me off, I try to find a way to have a relationship with them that is positive and in fact this forum website has helped me with that in ways I would never have expected. But, in glaring honesty, about all I get from many of your posts is that you are here to tell people how messed up they are, that they don't get it and the posts they start need criticism. If someone says something positive about church leadership you try to find a way to make it a negative attribute for all church members. It's pretty tiring and cynical. I admit freely that I correct posts on here that are wrong and non-doctrinal and I can sound pretty negative sometimes, but my purpose is to make a statement that gets the truth out for those who may not know the poster is teaching false doctrine and to let that poster know facts and logic are at the heart of the Lord's gospel and we are not fools because we follow His Spirit.

The brother is your typical contrarian. If a complement is given about a church leader he feels the need to find something wrong or out of line with the nature of the compliment. It's a type of one-upmanship. Don't know if he is envious of the attention they receive that he doesn't get or if he has some kind of a superiority type complex. Short mans syndrome? We all have our idiosyncrasies. I guess that's what makes the world go round..

Why did you have to post these personal and revealing flaws about me for the whole forum to see? Now everything I've said is false!

-Finrock

[Finrock]

Craig,

Whatever good that you are doing is wonderful. Please keep it up because doing good to others is very important.

Please don't waste my time by posting about me and what you think of me and how you think I do this or I do that or whatever you personally think about me. FYI: I don't care what you personally think of me. I am interested in your addressing the content of my post, the ideas that I expressed, etc. I'm open to sincere questions for clarification. I'm open to you disagreeing with me and if applicable, demonstrating my error (I don't mean just asserting that I'm wrong, I mean demonstrating my error via logic, reason, persuasion...things like that).

-Finrock

I stand by what I said whether it meets your approval standards or not.

I stand by what I said.

-Finrock

[Finrock]

The brother is your typical contrarian. If a complement is given about a church leader he feels the need to find something wrong or out of line with the nature of the compliment. It's a type of one-upmanship. Don't know if he is envious of the attention they receive that he doesn't get or if he has some kind of a superiority type complex. Short mans syndrome? We all have our idiosyncrasies. I guess that's what makes the world go round..

Guess I'm seeing the pattern you noted a while back.
If it is jealousy, that makes it really hard for a person to see the value.
Whatever it is I don't see spiritual maturity in doing it nor that it heightens spirituality or awareness of anything important.
A lot of people don't understand that probably the most derided and persecuted are Mormon church leaders, all we tend to hear are the accolades, but they get a lot of abuse from inside and outside the church, we should not be giving them any and no one who is close to the Lord would ever do that and cowardly and childishly use the guise of "don't worship them" which is a veil over their real opinion.

Yeah, guess you figured this person out, whoever they are. He probably is a very evil person, not close to the Lord, and very spiritually immature. And, man, those Church leaders, their life is rough. I mean, being raped is nothing compared to the abuse these people are enduring. Can you imagine how it would feel knowing someone was stating historically factual information about you? The gall of some people who dare state facts and assign facts to the correct individual and make factual inferences about them. What blasphemy!



-Finrock

[Craig Johnson]

it was a result of racist ideology which was common at the time -remained unchallenged until 1978!!!!!

I was there and no one was challenging it. There were some, like myself, that were praying and fasting that the ban would be rescinded and when it was we were joyful. There were those in the church who left after it was rescinded! Nowadays people are down on it when they hear about it but back then no one was saying anything.
If you believe the Prophet erred in following the Lord's will by invoking the ban why are you in this church? Or are you not? Why are you trying to explain this thing to people and trying to defend it? I have never done that, when ever the subject has come up I have always said that I do not know why this ban was in effect that I could not clearly understand it (and I still feel that way), but that what I did know is that this religion is true and that real prophets are at the helm of the church directly under the guidance of the Lord. Therefore, while I did not like the ban I accepted it as the Lord's will and I still do.
If you felt you could defend this topic I would like to know what you were teaching because I have never felt after everything I have read and heard that I had enough knowledge on the subject to do that.

[Craig Johnson]

The brother is your typical contrarian. If a complement is given about a church leader he feels the need to find something wrong or out of line with the nature of the compliment. It's a type of one-upmanship. Don't know if he is envious of the attention they receive that he doesn't get or if he has some kind of a superiority type complex. Short mans syndrome? We all have our idiosyncrasies. I guess that's what makes the world go round..

Guess I'm seeing the pattern you noted a while back.
If it is jealousy, that makes it really hard for a person to see the value.
Whatever it is I don't see spiritual maturity in doing it nor that it heightens spirituality or awareness of anything important.
A lot of people don't understand that probably the most derided and persecuted are Mormon church leaders, all we tend to hear are the accolades, but they get a lot of abuse from inside and outside the church, we should not be giving them any and no one who is close to the Lord would ever do that and cowardly and childishly use the guise of "don't worship them" which is a veil over their real opinion.

Yeah, guess you figured this person out, whoever they are. He probably is a very evil person, not close to the Lord, and very spiritually immature. And, man, those Church leaders, their life is rough. I mean, being raped is nothing compared to the abuse these people are enduring. Can you imagine how it would feel knowing someone was stating historically factual information about you? The gall of some people who dare state facts and assign facts to the correct individual and make factual inferences about them. What blasphemy!



-Finrock

It's gonna be all right man.

[Finrock]

The brother is your typical contrarian. If a complement is given about a church leader he feels the need to find something wrong or out of line with the nature of the compliment. It's a type of one-upmanship. Don't know if he is envious of the attention they receive that he doesn't get or if he has some kind of a superiority type complex. Short mans syndrome? We all have our idiosyncrasies. I guess that's what makes the world go round..

Guess I'm seeing the pattern you noted a while back.
If it is jealousy, that makes it really hard for a person to see the value.
Whatever it is I don't see spiritual maturity in doing it nor that it heightens spirituality or awareness of anything important.
A lot of people don't understand that probably the most derided and persecuted are Mormon church leaders, all we tend to hear are the accolades, but they get a lot of abuse from inside and outside the church, we should not be giving them any and no one who is close to the Lord would ever do that and cowardly and childishly use the guise of "don't worship them" which is a veil over their real opinion.

Yeah, guess you figured this person out, whoever they are. He probably is a very evil person, not close to the Lord, and very spiritually immature. And, man, those Church leaders, their life is rough. I mean, being raped is nothing compared to the abuse these people are enduring. Can you imagine how it would feel knowing someone was stating historically factual information about you? The gall of some people who dare state facts and assign facts to the correct individual and make factual inferences about them. What blasphemy!



-Finrock

It's gonna be all right man.

Indeed.

-Finrock

[Finrock]

it was a result of racist ideology which was common at the time -remained unchallenged until 1978!!!!!

I was there and no one was challenging it. There were some, like myself, that were praying and fasting that the ban would be rescinded and when it was we were joyful. There were those in the church who left after it was rescinded! Nowadays people are down on it when they hear about it but back then no one was saying anything.
If you believe the Prophet erred in following the Lord's will by invoking the ban why are you in this church? Or are you not? Why are you trying to explain this thing to people and trying to defend it? I have never done that, when ever the subject has come up I have always said that I do not know why this ban was in effect that I could not clearly understand it (and I still feel that way), but that what I did know is that this religion is true and that real prophets are at the helm of the church directly under the guidance of the Lord. Therefore, while I did not like the ban I accepted it as the Lord's will and I still do.
If you felt you could defend this topic I would like to know what you were teaching because I have never felt after everything I have read and heard that I had enough knowledge on the subject to do that.

My wife and I don't consider divorce each time one of us errs.

-Finrock

[gardener4life]

Mark - thanks for that. Its helpful on a couple fronts. The Lord certainly must have anticipated a situation in which the Prophet could fall.

Who is the council of the Church? This group can vote to remove the Prophet over doctrinal issues? If President Nielson taught that Women were to be ordained to the Priesthood, this council could be organized to throw him out? Who would initiate such a thing? Has it ever happened?

So I think I should say something right now to you fellow brothers talking about procedures of replacing the prophet. This is a fallen false doctrine for you to bring up. I would encourage you to steer clear far away from such ideas. Some of the comments on this post talking about rejecting a prophet are outright dangerous. I can hardly believe what I read here.

I think people are forgetting that president and prophet have different meanings. President of a quorum in a branch, ward, or area is what the scripture above is talking about. It is not about common lay members removing the top prophet under the head of Christ. For starters we have the words of Brigham Young, Wilford Woodruff and Joseph Smith stating that the Lord won't let the church be led astray. Prophets are different from presidents. A president of a quorum is called through revelation by other men above him. Prophets are different in that they have a personal connection with God that transcends relationships of men. So how can a man that is a common layman interfere with who God himself has called? <b

It can't happen. Suggesting that a prophet can be overthrown by a bunch of popular votes is incorrect doctrine. It has always been taught also that the doing what's right will not be popular. President Benson has mentioned this on a few occasions regarding inpopularity (inpopular = majority vote would always be against that person. He even used such words as a prophet will never be popular by the majority of the population. Now you see the problem don't you? If someone is unpopular and if there is a procedure to remove them by majority vote that isn't God removing them then EVERY prophet would always be voted out of office.)

Also Wilford Woodruff and others have quoted many times that if they were to try to lead people astray the Lord would remove them from office. It doesn't say the church members would remove them; it says the Lord would remove them. The Lord appoints his apostles. Also I felt the Spirit tell me very strongly one day that he knew exactly who would be in his batting lineup all the way until his return.

It is really backwards for people to be trying to teach on this forum that a common lay man member is going to receive a revelation to remove the prophet. That's Satan at work gentleman, not God teaching that. And this is the type of thing I'd try and spread to members if I were Satan and trying to overthrow the leadership with a coup someday. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof. (Called of God, not man. If you believe someone is called of God, then you would not try to impeach them.) We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth. 7 We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth. (several articles of faith have to do with prophecy and the prophets.)

We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things. (IF we believe in enduring many things and hope to endure all things that means hoping to endure people wanting to overthrow the prophet. It also means patiently enduring when we don't always agree with the prophet. We've had leaders in the past also cite that people can disagree with the views of the prophet but that doesn't mean they can reject the prophet.)

Now I would show you another pattern, to warn the rest of you to be careful and you will see the pattern in this chain of scriptures. Notice how step by step each verse or phrase of wording shows what's happening in the world and in those surrounding the church.

3 Nephi 16:10
10 And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them.

4 Nephi Chapter 1:13 And it came to pass that there was no contention among all the people, in all the land; but there were mighty miracles wrought among the disciples of Jesus.
Verse 23....they were spread upon all the face of the land, and that they had become exceedingly rich, because of their prosperity in Christ. (They had so much wealth that it became a distraction.)
Verse 24,25, 26....began to be among them those who were lifted up in pride, such as the wearing of costly apparel, and all manner of fine pearls, and of the fine things of the world. 25 And from that time forth they did have their goods and their substance no more common among them.
26 And they began to be divided into classes; and they began to build up churches unto themselves to get gain, (They began to chase wealth and lose sight of their true goals. They began to have a great inequality among them and seek mostly for wealth.)
26...and began to deny the true church of Christ. (Because of pride and wealth seeking they began to deny the true church and the poor.)
27...they did deny the more parts of his gospel, insomuch that they did receive all manner of wickedness, and did administer that which was sacred unto him to whom it had been forbidden because of unworthiness.
28 And this church did multiply exceedingly because of iniquity, and because of the power of Satan who did get hold upon their hearts. (At this point Satan is gaining hold of their hearts. They begin to find FAULT with the church and church leaders.
29 And again, there was another church which denied the Christ; and they did persecute the true church of Christ, because of their humility and their belief in Christ; and they did despise them because of the many miracles which were wrought among them.
30 Therefore they did exercise power and authority over the disciples of Jesus who did tarry with them, and they did cast them into prison
(Because of pride and wealth seeking and following Satan and being tricked...many began to persecute the church. Some of the comments on this thread could cause such things to happen. I only tell you this to warn you. And look at the pattern I have shown which goes step by step from 3 Nephi 16:10 explaining how the events in that same verse will come to pass. 4 Nephi Chapter 1 shows both the ultimate good but also how they spiraled to ultimate bad.
34 Nevertheless, the people did harden their hearts, for they were led by many priests and false prophets to build up many churches, and to do all manner of iniquity. And they did smite upon the people of Jesus; but the people of Jesus did not smite again. And thus they did dwindle in unbelief and wickedness, from year to year
38 And it came to pass that they who rejected the gospel were called Lamanites, and Lemuelites, and Ishmaelites; and they did not dwindle in unbelief, but they did wilfully rebel against the gospel of Christ; and they did teach their children that they should not believe, even as their fathers, from the beginning, did dwindle. (At this point the cycle of pride has reached it's zenith. They are openly and willfully rebelling against God. I worry for those that talk about thinking they can talk about a procedure for a coup against the prophet so willingly. It's very close to this verse 38.)
39....And they were taught to hate the children of God (The goal of some people in this forum is plainly manifested with this wording...they hate the children of God. Why else would they try to come up with wording about how to overthrow a prophet? Don't you know this is from Satan? Those are the same arguments people used to stone and cast out the prophets. First they had to label them as false or fallen first. Joseph Smith and others were labeled as fallen by mobs before the mobs could attack them.)
42 ...the wicked part of the people began again to build up the secret oaths and combinations of Gadianton. (Notice this cycle of rejecting the Gospel is also when secret combinations manifest among the population. From this order going from step A to step Z you can see where our own society lies.

It culminates with a game over and fulfillment of 3 Nephi 16:10 with the following two verses before the destruction begins;
Mormon Chapter 1:13 But wickedness did prevail upon the face of the whole land, insomuch that the Lord did take away his beloved disciples, and the work of miracles and of healing did cease because of the iniquity of the people.
16...and I was forbidden that I should preach unto them; for behold they had wilfully rebelled against their God; and the beloved disciples were taken away out of the land, because of their iniquity.

I don't wish to offend but go through the verses and wording above from 3 Nephi 16:10 until Mormon 1:13,16. This is a step by step process of how we could easily reach a point of no return.

[Mark]

Church leaders have historically made mistakes - something the Church now admits FYI. These aren't minor things like paint color, but pretty big deal caliber mistskes. To me the pertinent questions are:

1) Can a Prophet make serious mistakes and inject false doctrine into the Church and the Church still be "true"? - I would argue yes, but defenders of Prophet near-infallibility run into a difficult dilemna with this concept.

2) If we accept that Prophets are capable of erring in doctrine, and its therefore possible to be asked by them to believe in something or do something against the will of God. Are you better off to follow a Prophet into sin and error to maintain your obediance, or are you better off to reject the message? If you pray about it (e.g., Polygamy) and you feel that God is not behind it, how do you reconcile that your message from God is different from that of his Prophet?

This is seriously a concept I have really been struggling with. Im not trying to provoke debate for debate sake, but looking for help in reconciling this.

You can't mix "church leaders" and "Prophets" into a shake and bake bag. Sure some church leaders have made phenomenal mistakes, and Prophets have done minor mistakes, big difference. When Prophets err and have to repent we receive important instructions, but when anti's malign the prophets and call them all kinds of perverted nonsense we learn that anti's are just creepy evil people who are disaffected and doing their best to tear down the church and subsequently have a negative impact on what the Lord is trying to achieve.

Sure you can! But for sake of argument lets just assume this applies to The Prophet. I only threw Church leaders in because there is still doubt a BY direct role in The MM Massacre, and I was giving the benefit of the doubt.

Are you saying I'm an anti-mormon Chris? We have a very controversial history brother. Many facts you may call "anti" are well established. The problem in avoiding them and building false stories to obscure them (im not acusing you of this), is that "the cover-up is always worse than the crime." Don't fear the truth as "having a negative impact on what the Lord is trying to achieve." The truth will set us free, but there is going to be some pain along the way. I believe the Church will be stronger owning it - progress being made.

I will tackle your second point here the way I see it. There is an important scripture in section 56 where the Lord says:
"4 Wherefore I, the Lord, command and revoke, as it seemeth me good; and all this to be answered upon the heads of the rebellious, saith the Lord."

Now you bring up something like polygamy. Obviously it is not an appropriate practice in our day. The Lord has made that very clear thru His modern day Prophets. However in the early days of the church it became a type of an Abrahamic test given to some Saints for a purpose that the Lord knew was necessary for their personal growth and the growth of the Kingdom.
Many when they heard of this principle from Joseph were repulsed and wished the grave instead. Yet they received their own revelation of its truthfulness and soldiered on.

It is easy for us today 200 years later in hindsight to criticize those decisions. However is that fair? Those Brethren and Sisters who remained true to their covenants and stayed strong in the church and became its backbone with their steadfast leadership sacrificed a great deal to be obedient. Had you been among them then are you sure that you would not have done exactly as they did? If the Lord revealed to you as confirmation that His Prophet was speaking truth about Celestial marriage as they referred to it would you have rejected the principle?

Remember now that the Lord gives 3 ways for us to discover truth. Revelation thru his anointed Prophet, personal revelation thru the Holy Ghost, and scriptural revelation. These early Brethren and Sisters had been given all 3 as confirmation that Celestial plural marriage was a revealed principle from the Lord given to them as an Abrahamic test. Their testimony of the latter day work and the covenants they made pushed them forward in living this principle. I do not fault them for doing what they felt was right and true in the Lords eyes. I actually admire their courage and fortitude to do what the Lord required regardless of the personal challenges with this principle of plural marriage. I am so glad it isn't asked of us now. It would be heartwrenching to even consider. But I better think long and hard before criticizing these early Saints decisions to live it. Maybe the Lord won't take to kindly to me showing a rebellious heart. Just sayin..

[Hie'ing to Kolob]

Mark - thanks for that. Its helpful on a couple fronts. The Lord certainly must have anticipated a situation in which the Prophet could fall.

Who is the council of the Church? This group can vote to remove the Prophet over doctrinal issues? If President Nielson taught that Women were to be ordained to the Priesthood, this council could be organized to throw him out? Who would initiate such a thing? Has it ever happened?

So I think I should say something right now to you fellow brothers talking about procedures of replacing the prophet. This is a fallen false doctrine for you to bring up. I would encourage you to steer clear far away from such ideas. Some of the comments on this post talking about rejecting a prophet are outright dangerous. I can hardly believe what I read here.

I think people are forgetting that president and prophet have different meanings. President of a quorum in a branch, ward, or area is what the scripture above is talking about. It is not about common lay members removing the top prophet under the head of Christ. For starters we have the words of Brigham Young, Wilford Woodruff and Joseph Smith stating that the Lord won't let the church be led astray. Prophets are different from presidents. A president of a quorum is called through revelation by other men above him. Prophets are different in that they have a personal connection with God that transcends relationships of men. So how can a man that is a common layman interfere with who God himself has called? <b

It can't happen. Suggesting that a prophet can be overthrown by a bunch of popular votes is incorrect doctrine. It has always been taught also that the doing what's right will not be popular. President Benson has mentioned this on a few occasions regarding inpopularity (inpopular = majority vote would always be against that person. He even used such words as a prophet will never be popular by the majority of the population. Now you see the problem don't you? If someone is unpopular and if there is a procedure to remove them by majority vote that isn't God removing them then EVERY prophet would always be voted out of office.)

Also Wilford Woodruff and others have quoted many times that if they were to try to lead people astray the Lord would remove them from office. It doesn't say the church members would remove them; it says the Lord would remove them. The Lord appoints his apostles. Also I felt the Spirit tell me very strongly one day that he knew exactly who would be in his batting lineup all the way until his return.

It is really backwards for people to be trying to teach on this forum that a common lay man member is going to receive a revelation to remove the prophet. That's Satan at work gentleman, not God teaching that. And this is the type of thing I'd try and spread to members if I were Satan and trying to overthrow the leadership with a coup someday. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof. (Called of God, not man. If you believe someone is called of God, then you would not try to impeach them.) We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth. 7 We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth. (several articles of faith have to do with prophecy and the prophets.)

We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things. (IF we believe in enduring many things and hope to endure all things that means hoping to endure people wanting to overthrow the prophet. It also means patiently enduring when we don't always agree with the prophet. We've had leaders in the past also cite that people can disagree with the views of the prophet but that doesn't mean they can reject the prophet.)

Now I would show you another pattern, to warn the rest of you to be careful and you will see the pattern in this chain of scriptures. Notice how step by step each verse or phrase of wording shows what's happening in the world and in those surrounding the church.

3 Nephi 16:10
10 And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them.

4 Nephi Chapter 1:13 And it came to pass that there was no contention among all the people, in all the land; but there were mighty miracles wrought among the disciples of Jesus.
Verse 23....they were spread upon all the face of the land, and that they had become exceedingly rich, because of their prosperity in Christ. (They had so much wealth that it became a distraction.)
Verse 24,25, 26....began to be among them those who were lifted up in pride, such as the wearing of costly apparel, and all manner of fine pearls, and of the fine things of the world. 25 And from that time forth they did have their goods and their substance no more common among them.
26 And they began to be divided into classes; and they began to build up churches unto themselves to get gain, (They began to chase wealth and lose sight of their true goals. They began to have a great inequality among them and seek mostly for wealth.)
26...and began to deny the true church of Christ. (Because of pride and wealth seeking they began to deny the true church and the poor.)
27...they did deny the more parts of his gospel, insomuch that they did receive all manner of wickedness, and did administer that which was sacred unto him to whom it had been forbidden because of unworthiness.
28 And this church did multiply exceedingly because of iniquity, and because of the power of Satan who did get hold upon their hearts. (At this point Satan is gaining hold of their hearts. They begin to find FAULT with the church and church leaders.
29 And again, there was another church which denied the Christ; and they did persecute the true church of Christ, because of their humility and their belief in Christ; and they did despise them because of the many miracles which were wrought among them.
30 Therefore they did exercise power and authority over the disciples of Jesus who did tarry with them, and they did cast them into prison
(Because of pride and wealth seeking and following Satan and being tricked...many began to persecute the church. Some of the comments on this thread could cause such things to happen. I only tell you this to warn you. And look at the pattern I have shown which goes step by step from 3 Nephi 16:10 explaining how the events in that same verse will come to pass. 4 Nephi Chapter 1 shows both the ultimate good but also how they spiraled to ultimate bad.
34 Nevertheless, the people did harden their hearts, for they were led by many priests and false prophets to build up many churches, and to do all manner of iniquity. And they did smite upon the people of Jesus; but the people of Jesus did not smite again. And thus they did dwindle in unbelief and wickedness, from year to year
38 And it came to pass that they who rejected the gospel were called Lamanites, and Lemuelites, and Ishmaelites; and they did not dwindle in unbelief, but they did wilfully rebel against the gospel of Christ; and they did teach their children that they should not believe, even as their fathers, from the beginning, did dwindle. (At this point the cycle of pride has reached it's zenith. They are openly and willfully rebelling against God. I worry for those that talk about thinking they can talk about a procedure for a coup against the prophet so willingly. It's very close to this verse 38.)
39....And they were taught to hate the children of God (The goal of some people in this forum is plainly manifested with this wording...they hate the children of God. Why else would they try to come up with wording about how to overthrow a prophet? Don't you know this is from Satan? Those are the same arguments people used to stone and cast out the prophets. First they had to label them as false or fallen first. Joseph Smith and others were labeled as fallen by mobs before the mobs could attack them.)
42 ...the wicked part of the people began again to build up the secret oaths and combinations of Gadianton. (Notice this cycle of rejecting the Gospel is also when secret combinations manifest among the population. From this order going from step A to step Z you can see where our own society lies.

It culminates with a game over and fulfillment of 3 Nephi 16:10 with the following two verses before the destruction begins;
Mormon Chapter 1:13 But wickedness did prevail upon the face of the whole land, insomuch that the Lord did take away his beloved disciples, and the work of miracles and of healing did cease because of the iniquity of the people.
16...and I was forbidden that I should preach unto them; for behold they had wilfully rebelled against their God; and the beloved disciples were taken away out of the land, because of their iniquity.

I don't wish to offend but go through the verses and wording above from 3 Nephi 16:10 until Mormon 1:13,16. This is a step by step process of how we could easily reach a point of no return.

No one is talking about trying to replace the Prophet. This procedure (DC 107) was provided by Mark as the Lord's protection against false doctrine. It was a procedure I was and am still am unfamiliar with. Asking how this would work isn't blasphemy. Why is it there if we are not to seek to understand? As I have mentioned, I do sustain Pres Nielsen and can't think of a better man to lead the Church. I do however believe, like Elder Uchdorf said, "Mistakes have been made." I believe in a God who calls imperfect men (and women) to do his work.

[Craig Johnson]

My wife and I don't consider divorce each time one of us errs.

-Finrock

That is very wise. I always say, never give up unless it is something that you just can't live with, forgive and try to forget, but only move on if you have to.
Divorce is a tough thing, it is most often the wrong thing, but sometimes it is the right thing.
A marriage should not be broken over minor issues that can be worked out.
Doing the Lord's will is paramount and should be the first priority.

[Finrock]

My wife and I don't consider divorce each time one of us errs.

-Finrock

That is very wise. I always say, never give up unless it is something that you just can't live with, forgive and try to forget, but only move on if you have to.
Divorce is a tough thing, it is most often the wrong thing, but sometimes it is the right thing.
A marriage should not be broken over minor issues that can be worked out.
Doing the Lord's will is paramount and should be the first priority.

I do appreciate your point and you are making a lot of sense. Just for clarity's sake, you had asked Hie'ing to Kolob, "If you believe the Prophet erred in following the Lord's will by invoking the ban why are you in this church? " And my point with my divorce comment is to say that I don't consider leaving or "divorcing" myself from the Church each time the Church or the Church leaders err. Just as I love my wife, I love the Church. Just as my wife and I struggle and deal with each other's weaknesses, mistakes, and sins together, the Church, the Church leaders, and I struggle and deal with each other's weaknesses, mistakes, and sins together.

Judgement is for identification, not for condemnation.

-Finrock

[Durzan]

Puts on Mod Hat

Hey guys, please remember to be civil and respectful when you are discussing things on the forum.

Takes off Mod Hat

[Craig Johnson]

My wife and I don't consider divorce each time one of us errs.

-Finrock

That is very wise. I always say, never give up unless it is something that you just can't live with, forgive and try to forget, but only move on if you have to.
Divorce is a tough thing, it is most often the wrong thing, but sometimes it is the right thing.
A marriage should not be broken over minor issues that can be worked out.
Doing the Lord's will is paramount and should be the first priority.

I do appreciate your point and you are making a lot of sense. Just for clarity's sake, you had asked Hie'ing to Kolob, "If you believe the Prophet erred in following the Lord's will by invoking the ban why are you in this church? " And my point with my divorce comment is to say that I don't consider leaving or "divorcing" myself from the Church each time the Church or the Church leaders err. Just as I love my wife, I love the Church. Just as my wife and I struggle and deal with each other's weaknesses, mistakes, and sins together, the Church, the Church leaders, and I struggle and deal with each other's weaknesses, mistakes, and sins together.

Judgement is for identification, not for condemnation.

-Finrock

That is why I wrote my reply as I did in an effort to catch what your point was and deal with the two issues, since even in my little brain I noticed you appeared to be off topic. I, for my part, do not look for errors by church authorities (and I don't even listen to anti's when they start in on that), if they (church authorities) make errors (which everyone does) they are honest and tell us what we need to know, there are many examples of this, so I don't need to reference any. The reason they tell us is so that we can learn like they did from the experience and of course make it plain that they are not gods, just normal people with extraordinary callings.
This brings up another point which is that God is just but He is not fair. However, it occurs to me that in His unfairness He actually is fair since we all have differing levels of capacity. He has said we will not be tempted above that which we can bear and our Prophets have told us that every single human ever born has been given a special life tailor made for them specifically. Sometimes this is as hard for me to digest as that there is no beginning to God and that the Gods above God go on ad infinitum.
Whatever any of us are going through, God loved us enough to provide that for us and we need to appreciate that and do our best to make the most of it and in doing so accept His method of teaching which is the best method.

[Craig Johnson]

Puts on Mod Hat

Hey guys, please remember to be civil and respectful when you are discussing things on the forum.

Takes off Mod Hat

I probably deserve that more than anyone else.

[Hie'ing to Kolob]

Appreciate the discussion Craig. I think you are "missing the boat" when it comes to your very strict traditional view of modern Prophets. You think I am "missing the boat" by my skepticism of that traditional view and that I am being deceived.

The cool thing is, we belong to the same Church and both feel passionately about what should be done to stregthen it. I really think the Church needs all types.

[gardener4life]

Church leaders have historically made mistakes - something the Church now admits FYI. These aren't minor things like paint color, but pretty big deal caliber mistskes. To me the pertinent questions are:

1) Can a Prophet make serious mistakes and inject false doctrine into the Church and the Church still be "true"? - I would argue yes, but defenders of Prophet near-infallibility run into a difficult dilemna with this concept.

2) If we accept that Prophets are capable of erring in doctrine, and its therefore possible to be asked by them to believe in something or do something against the will of God. Are you better off to follow a Prophet into sin and error to maintain your obediance, or are you better off to reject the message? If you pray about it (e.g., Polygamy) and you feel that God is not behind it, how do you reconcile that your message from God is different from that of his Prophet?

This is seriously a concept I have really been struggling with. Im not trying to provoke debate for debate sake, but looking for help in reconciling this.

I will address your first point for you. If you look in section 107 where the Lord outlines His Priesthood Govt., You will see that the Lord has already provided a remedy for your concerns. It is a very effective system and works very well. The Lords church is setup to take care of any false doctrine or transgression that could introduced into the body by a Prophet. The sustained quorums are well equipped to handle those potentialities. It is an inspired system.

82 And inasmuch as a President of the High Priesthood shall transgress, he shall be had in remembrance before the common council of the church, who shall be assisted by twelve counselors of the High Priesthood;

83 And their decision upon his head shall be an end of controversy concerning him.

84 Thus, none shall be exempted from the justice and the laws of God, that all things may be done in order and in solemnity before him, according to truth and righteousness.

The Constitution guarantees that I will be protected from unreasonable searches and seizures by the government. Its an inspired document, the Constitution, and our form of government is an inspired system.

We have the principle (a triangle) and what really happens (squiggly, distorted triangle).

Look, what has been the result on this forum of just me making historically factual/accurate statements. Brigham Young taught false doctrine and very negatively influenced thousands (millions?) of Mormons for generations to come to believe that black African people are cursed and made to be servants to white people because they, the dark skinned Africans, were less valiant in the pre-mortal existence. This evil doctrine has perpetuated and resulted in Mormons justifying and accepting racism and elitism, thus this doctrine has actively lead to separation as opposed to the "oneness" of Zion. This damnable and false doctrine (which is still influencing and affecting Mormons negatively to this day) was NOT corrected by the means you outlined. A statement was made in 2014 or so by the Church's PR department denouncing this and other racist doctrines that were taught by Presidents and apostles of the Church in the past.

-Finrock

Finrock - the priesthood ban is especially problematic. This is a case where the Prophet appears to be wrong. In fact, as you point out, current Prophets have stated that there was no revelation supporting it, there was no revealed doctrine sustaining it, it was a result of racist ideology which was common at the time -remained unchallenged until 1978!!!!! The reason it was unchallenged was because of how emphatic BY and others were about it. How could they clearly contradict prior prophets? As a missionary in the 1990's I defended this position with all my heart. Teaching people (black people) about how this was God's will and direction through his prophets. I can't imagine how it would be to receive such a message had I been in their shoes.

Here we are again. This always happens. You guys think you can decree that the prophet is wrong. Over and over again this comes up.

Look you guys have to understand that some family trees and nations just had time periods where they weren't ready for us to proselyte in yet. This can happen for a lot of reasons. It can mean we don't have missionaries ready, it can mean we don't understand the culture, it can also mean those countries aren't ready both for family lines going back, and for political stability, economic stability, ability to endure to the end. Especially cultures of violence had to wait a while till they can get that out of their system. We weren't ready for a long time to help these people. But we don't condemn them.

For a type of 'sample' or 'evidence' to this I would point out the early missions of the church where Jacob Hamblin taught the gospel to the Lamanites in Southern Utah, and also the Navajo. At that time the Navajo were not receptive. And at any given time sending missionaries to the Navajo was really an act of miracles because they thought they wouldn't come back alive. I'm not kidding on this. They thought some of them that they were going to be martyrs.

These examples in early church history are there for us to see why we sometimes a group of people isn't ready yet. It doesn't have anything to do with what we think of them. It's not about skin color. We also see that Russia was one of the last places to open for the gospel even after almost all the African nations were already open. Vietnamese people just barely opened up to allowing the church there officially. Guess what? Vietnamese are beautiful!

So it has nothing to do with the prophet being 'wrong'. Nor about skin color, racism, etc.

Over and over I see you guys always trying to come to this common theme of not understanding what's going on and then decrying church leaders to be wrong. There are examples in early church history that explain most of the problems in the church and how to solve them. For example, Zions march taught church leaders to be faithful. But people died along the way. That seriousness and sobering fact helps us see that we have to be careful entering into these foreign countries and areas so people don't get hurt. Africa was a pretty wild place for a while. They still have a lot of unrest in a lot of places there. Unrest means unsafe for them as well as missionaries.

So let's not all rush to judge. And let's get our facts straight.

I still want to point out that you guys could be a bit more careful about not trying to find ways of condemning the prophets or trying to think of ways of getting rid of them based on the other posts here. Have a nice day friends! Please don't take this personally or feel bad. I am just trying to help you see what's real.

[shadow]

[

So it has nothing to do with the prophet being 'wrong'. Nor about skin color, racism, etc.

Great point.

Historically from even way back in Old Testament times certain races and nationalities were excluded from receiving all the Gospel had to offer, including the Priesthood. Heck some nationalities were commanded to be killed. I'd hate to have been one of the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites. You couldn't marry women from other nationalities either. The time period of the restoration when Joseph and Brigham were at the helm was really quite tame compared to OT times. However, in these last days the gospel is to be sent out to all, and it has been moving forward encompassing more and more people from all nations as the stone cut out of the mountain without hands which would roll forth and fill the whole earth, as Daniel saw in vision. It started out small and a bit inclusive, but it's been growing ever since.

[Craig Johnson]

Appreciate the discussion Craig. I think you are "missing the boat" when it comes to your very strict traditional view of modern Prophets. You think I am "missing the boat" by my skepticism of that traditional view and that I am being deceived.

The cool thing is, we belong to the same Church and both feel passionately about what should be done to stregthen it. I really think the Church needs all types.

Well, i would just ask you to be very careful about it. Too much of that can slide you out the door before you even realize it. I have a lot of respect for church authorities but I don't worship them and they don't want to be worshipped. Except in very rare cases you can count on them to be serving as best as they can and teaching per the Lord's Spirit, therefore they don't deserve an abundance of criticism and suspicion. I tend to look at what they do positively and if something new and strange happens I seek to understand by doing the research and like I said very rarely have I been disappointed.

[Hie'ing to Kolob]

Gonna have to part ways with you guys on this one (Gardener4life and shadow)...

the Church isn't fragile. I discovered recently that I didn't need to contort myself to defend aspects of Church history that are incongruent with the message of Christ. I accept that both the goodness and imperfections of the current and former leaders of the Church are evident in doctrines, scriptures, policies and even culture. For me that is OK. I support the leadership of the Church, I think they are genuinely striving to do the right thing. I regard them as "fellow servants" in the work and hope and pray for their wisdom and prudence in leading the Church.

In my belief, the Church is strong enough to withstand honest questioning and even legitimate criticism. I certainly admire your commitment to your beliefs, your vigorous defense of the Prophets, and your ability to see a way to truth and goodness in all these controversial issues.

I'd encourage you to read the New Testament again, not with an agenda and not trying to reconcile it with your belief framework, just read the text. This was a life changing event for me.

It has been enlightening conversing with you guys. We won't see eye-to-eye on these issues.

[drtanner]

Gonna have to part ways with you guys on this one (Gardener4life and shadow)...

the Church isn't fragile. I discovered recently that I didn't need to contort myself to defend aspects of Church history that are incongruent with the message of Christ. I accept that both the goodness and imperfections of the current and former leaders of the Church are evident in doctrines, scriptures, policies and even culture. For me that is OK. I support the leadership of the Church, I think they are genuinely striving to do the right thing. I regard them as "fellow servants" in the work and hope and pray for their wisdom and prudence in leading the Church.

In my belief, the Church is strong enough to withstand honest questioning and even legitimate criticism. I certainly admire your commitment to your beliefs, your vigorous defense of the Prophets, and your ability to see a way to truth and goodness in all these controversial issues.

I'd encourage you to read the New Testament again, not with an agenda and not trying to reconcile it with your belief framework, just read the text. This was a life changing event for me.

It has been enlightening conversing with you guys. We won't see eye-to-eye on these issues.

What was life changing for you in the New Testament when you re-read it? Were there any particular stories or scriptures that impacted you differently?

[Zathura]

Gonna have to part ways with you guys on this one (Gardener4life and shadow)...

the Church isn't fragile. I discovered recently that I didn't need to contort myself to defend aspects of Church history that are incongruent with the message of Christ. I accept that both the goodness and imperfections of the current and former leaders of the Church are evident in doctrines, scriptures, policies and even culture. For me that is OK. I support the leadership of the Church, I think they are genuinely striving to do the right thing. I regard them as "fellow servants" in the work and hope and pray for their wisdom and prudence in leading the Church.

In my belief, the Church is strong enough to withstand honest questioning and even legitimate criticism. I certainly admire your commitment to your beliefs, your vigorous defense of the Prophets, and your ability to see a way to truth and goodness in all these controversial issues.

I'd encourage you to read the New Testament again, not with an agenda and not trying to reconcile it with your belief framework, just read the text. This was a life changing event for me.

It has been enlightening conversing with you guys. We won't see eye-to-eye on these issues.

What was life changing for you in the New Testament when you re-read it? Were there any particular stories or scriptures that impacted you differently?

This wasn’t directed at me, but the New Testament is completely different to me after being awakened by the spirit of God. I notice references to the rebirth over and over and over. Before they were just religious phrases that had no true meaning, and I now I know exactly what Paul is referring to. I see things I never saw.
The New Testament shows me what true religion is. We need to connect with Jesus Christ, and once we have and he abides in us, we live the rest of our life in Christ , pressing forward, doing the same things we did to be regenerated in the first place. I simply did not see these things before, and now I do. While the Church Organization is present in the New Testament , and commandments are present, those things are not the priority. The emphasis is everything that goes on within yourself! You and God. Your commitment and connection to God is all that matters, it is what we strive to attain and then strive to retain, and this is done by faith, by relying wholly on him who saves us, independent of anybody else.

[Zathura]

Gonna have to part ways with you guys on this one (Gardener4life and shadow)...

the Church isn't fragile. I discovered recently that I didn't need to contort myself to defend aspects of Church history that are incongruent with the message of Christ. I accept that both the goodness and imperfections of the current and former leaders of the Church are evident in doctrines, scriptures, policies and even culture. For me that is OK. I support the leadership of the Church, I think they are genuinely striving to do the right thing. I regard them as "fellow servants" in the work and hope and pray for their wisdom and prudence in leading the Church.

In my belief, the Church is strong enough to withstand honest questioning and even legitimate criticism. I certainly admire your commitment to your beliefs, your vigorous defense of the Prophets, and your ability to see a way to truth and goodness in all these controversial issues.

I'd encourage you to read the New Testament again, not with an agenda and not trying to reconcile it with your belief framework, just read the text. This was a life changing event for me.

It has been enlightening conversing with you guys. We won't see eye-to-eye on these issues.

What was life changing for you in the New Testament when you re-read it? Were there any particular stories or scriptures that impacted you differently?

This wasn’t directed at me, but the New Testament is completely different to me after being awakened by the spirit of God. I notice references to the rebirth over and over and over. Before they were just religious phrases that had no true meaning, and I now I know exactly what Paul is referring to. I see things I never saw.
The New Testament shows me what true religion is. We need to connect with Jesus Christ, and once we have and he abides in us, we live the rest of our life in Christ , pressing forward, doing the same things we did to be regenerated in the first place. I simply did not see these things before, and now I do. While the Church Organization is present in the New Testament , and commandments are present, those things are not the priority. The emphasis is everything that goes on within yourself! You and God. Your commitment and connection to God is all that matters, it is what we strive to attain and then strive to retain, and this is done by faith, by relying wholly on him who saves us, independent of anybody else.

And adding to that, if you prioritize those things, nothing else matters. The result is an attitude like this quote:

the Church isn't fragile. I discovered recently that I didn't need to contort myself to defend aspects of Church history that are incongruent with the message of Christ. I accept that both the goodness and imperfections of the current and former leaders of the Church are evident in doctrines, scriptures, policies and even culture. For me that is OK. I support the leadership of the Church, I think they are genuinely striving to do the right thing. I regard them as "fellow servants" in the work and hope and pray for their wisdom and prudence in leading the Church.

He loves his fellow servants, church leaders, everyone. Loves what the church does, loves the goodness and imperfections. It doesn’t matter what happens, that won’t change.

Think of those Saints that preceded the Great Apostasy. The saints who received the epistles from Paul himself. They witnessed the Church becoming apostate, they saw it corrupt before their eyes. They probably loved it every bit as they always did, and loved the leaders, even the ones who began to corrupt the faith. Many of them probably saw the corruption, but in the end those that listened to Paul, and focused on what the Epistles teach were happy , they had joy, they lived in Christ and thus were not as bothered with what did or didn’t happen with the church because the church did not save them, Jesus did, Jesus their anchor, Jesus their Savior, Jesus their mediator, Jesus their God.

(IMPORTANT TO CLARIFY: I’m not saying the current church is doing what the church did immediately following the deaths of the original apostles)

[Finrock]

Gonna have to part ways with you guys on this one (Gardener4life and shadow)...

the Church isn't fragile. I discovered recently that I didn't need to contort myself to defend aspects of Church history that are incongruent with the message of Christ. I accept that both the goodness and imperfections of the current and former leaders of the Church are evident in doctrines, scriptures, policies and even culture. For me that is OK. I support the leadership of the Church, I think they are genuinely striving to do the right thing. I regard them as "fellow servants" in the work and hope and pray for their wisdom and prudence in leading the Church.

In my belief, the Church is strong enough to withstand honest questioning and even legitimate criticism. I certainly admire your commitment to your beliefs, your vigorous defense of the Prophets, and your ability to see a way to truth and goodness in all these controversial issues.

I'd encourage you to read the New Testament again, not with an agenda and not trying to reconcile it with your belief framework, just read the text. This was a life changing event for me.

It has been enlightening conversing with you guys. We won't see eye-to-eye on these issues.

Exactly! Thank you.

-Finrock