"And they come unto thee as the people cometh, and they sit before thee as my people, and they hear thy words, but they will not do them: for with their mouth they shew much love, but their heart goeth after their covetousness. And, lo, thou art unto them as a very lovely song of one that hath a pleasant voice, and can play well on an instrument: for they hear thy words, but they do them not. And when this cometh to pass, (lo, it will come,) then shall they know that a prophet hath been among them." -Ezekiel 33:31-33
It has been nearly two weeks now since we've had General Conference, at which time we've had the great blessing and honor to come together as the Lord's people, to hear the words of God through the Lord's Prophets, Apostles, and other servants. Their words and messages have been truly beautiful, uplifting, and divinely inspired. I have seen a lot of memes come out from this Conference which invite a smile or a chuckle, and have heard people say many great things about it. My fear though is expressed in the scripture above - "for they hear thy words, but they do them not" and "they hear thy words, but they will not do them: for with their mouth they shew much love, but their heart goeth after their covetousness."
I don't want us as a people and as individuals to walk away from this Conference thinking "Oh, wasn't that lovely," but then returning to our homes and daily life and quickly forgetting the things we have learned and heard, and not allowing those things to affect a change in our hearts and lives. Brothers and sisters, family and friends, my question for you, and indeed each of us, is what are we doing or going to do to follow the counsel and instruction we have received?
I'll briefly share just one thing that I have been doing to follow the counsel of the Prophet. Please don't mistake what I share as boasting or to draw attention to myself; I only do so to testify of the blessings that can come from heeding the words of the Lord's anointed servants and to invite each of you to experience these things for yourself. The Prophet, President Russell M. Nelson said this:
"I exhort you to study the messages of this conference frequently—even repeatedly—during the next six months. Conscientiously look for ways to incorporate these messages in your family home evenings, your gospel teaching, your conversations with family and friends, and even your discussions with those not of our faith. Many good people will respond to the truths taught in this conference when offered in love. And your desire to obey will be enhanced as you remember and reflect upon what you have felt these past two days."
I work at Papa John's Pizza as a delivery driver. When I'm on the road I have a lot of time that has, in the past, been spent listening to CD's, music, the radio, or just in silence. However, after hearing those words from President Nelson "to study the messages of this conference frequently—even repeatedly" I have made some changes. I have downloaded all of the Conference talks and music onto my phone and have been listening to them repeatedly as I'm driving for work or elsewhere. I have also begun studying the talks in their written form. But more than just studying and listening to the word, I have been striving to "conscientiously look for ways to incorporate these messages" into my life and daily activities.
The blessings I have received thus far - only two weeks now - have been truly life changing and wonderful! To borrow from Elder Renlund's promised list of blessings, these have been just some of the blessings I have received from doing the things a Prophet of God has asked me:
• Increased understanding of the Savior and His atoning sacrifice;
• Increased influence of the Holy Ghost to feel strength and direction for our own lives;
• Increased faith, so that conversion to the Savior becomes deep and abiding;
• Increased ability and motivation to learn and repent because of an understanding of who we are, where we come from, and a clearer vision of where we are going;
• Increased refining, sanctifying, and moderating influences in our hearts;
• Increased joy through an increased ability to feel the love of the Lord;
• Increased family blessings, no matter our current, past, or future family situation or how imperfect our family tree may be;
• Increased love and appreciation for ancestors and living relatives, so we no longer feel alone;
• Increased power to discern that which needs healing and thus, with the Lord’s help, serve others;
• Increased protection from temptations and the intensifying influence of the adversary; and
• Increased assistance to mend troubled, broken, or anxious hearts and make the wounded whole.
Add to that here are some more which I have experienced:
• Increased faith, hope, and joy for the future and the promised blessings that await.
• Increased power to overcome doubts, fears, a troubled mind, and a greater desire and capacity to try harder.
• Increased love for all people.
• A more certain knowledge of the Lord's love for me, in spite of my weaknesses and failings.
• Increased desire and ability to focus on, and appreciate, the good things in life.
• A greater appreciation for the challenges in life as well, for "all these things shall give thee experience, and shall be for thy good."
I could go on, but this is sufficient. I add my voice and testimony to that of our Prophet, President Nelson. I know "that we are engaged in the work of Almighty God! Jesus is the Christ. This is His Church, which He directs through His anointed servants." I know that we are in the last days preceding the second coming of Jesus Christ, and that in a day not far distant we shall see Him and know that He is. I know that He loves each and every one of us, and has done all things for our salvation - if we but believe and follow Him. Oh how I love Him and desire to become more like Him! Even though I am so very far away from that goal I know that with His help, and the help of others, I can eventually reach that goal! And I invite each of you to aim for that goal as well. Let us each do the things that we need to in order to become as He is, is my hope and prayer.
What are you doing to follow the Prophet?
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I AM
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 2456
Re: What are you doing to follow the Prophet?
I don't put my trust in the "arm of flesh."
What about the Atonement ?
WHO atoned for our sins.
Christ died for YOU, YOU alone.
Isn't it about time we stop living on borrowed light
and instead of just saying, "I follow the prophet"
say, "I will follow Jesus Christ - my Savior - the who who died for me.
All I can say is,
I've heard too many menbers just say, "I follow the prophet".
What does that really mean anyway?
They think that if they follow the prophet, they're saved some how,
like saying - "I'm good, I'm fine now, I don't need to do anything else."
You can't live or be saved on borrowed light.
If you follow the prophet or the GA's of the church
expecting to be saved, you will be lost.
You can not follow someone into heaven.
Following the prophet can't save you.
Going to church won't save you.
Following the prophet, is not following the Lord.
A prophet is still a man, and not the Lord.
All our focus, faith, trust and hope should be in Jesus Christ - our Savior and NOT in ANY MAN.
Why don't they say - I will follow the lord, and have Him as my guide,
have "His spirit to be with me".
To be saved, there is no middle man, except Christ.
We need to have a relationship with the Lord, not the prophet.
Jesus Christ is the ONLY one we need to follow and look to.
"I am the way, the truth, and the life:
no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."
John 14:6
We need to put our faith in Christ
It's CHRIST'S gospel and we need to look to him
and have his spirit with us to guide and direct us.
He's the one that died for us and the ONLY one that can save us.
"And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ,
we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ,
and we write according to our prophecies,
that our children may know to what source
they may look for a remission of their sins."
2 Nephi 25:26
"Wherefore, ye must press forward
with a steadfastness in Christ,
having a perfect brightness of hope,
and a love of God and of all men.
Wherefore, if ye shall press forward,
feasting upon the word of Christ,
and endure to the end, behold,
thus saith the Father:
Ye shall have eternal life."
2 Nephi 31:20
"Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ.
Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do."
2 Nephi 32
"And thus will the Father bear record of me, and the Holy Ghost will bear record unto him of the Father and me;
for the Father, and I, and the Holy Ghost are one."
3 Nephi 11:36
----------------------------------------------------
.Be Wary of Man and His Words Val Brinkerhoff
The Lord’s inspired servants do their best repeat God’s words as accurately as possible. They also point to Him
as the source of all light and truth. Imperfect and corrupt men, seeking the praise of the world and filthy lucre,
raise themselves up as a light in replacement of God. This paper addresses the false doctrine that men should be
lifted up as our source of light. Hereafter this paper is divided into three parts;
I. Statements by early LDS church leaders cautioning against putting trust in man;
II. Scriptures that support trusting God only; and
III. The misuse of God’s statement “Whether it be by mine own voice, or by the voice of my servants it is the same.”
I. Early Teachings in the LDS Church about Trusting Men
Consistent with the Lord’s words and scripture, early LDS church leaders taught members to avoid trusting in
leaders, and said that to do so was to trust in “the arm of the flesh.” Apostle George Q. Cannon stated, “Do not,
brethren, put your trust in man though he be a Bishop, an apostle or a president; if you do, they will fail you at
some time or place; they will do wrong or seem to, and your support will be gone; but if we lean on God, He
will never fail us. When men and women depend upon God alone and trust in him alone, their faith will not be
shaken if the highest in the Church should step aside” (George Q. Cannon, DW 43:322 [Mar 7, 1891]).
Apostle Charles Penrose, counselor to Pres. Brigham Young stated, “Our testimony does not depend upon
Joseph Smith; it does not depend upon Brigham Young; it does not depend upon John Taylor, or upon the
council of the Twelve Apostles, which is now the presiding quorum in the Church. I pin my faith to no man’s
sleeve; I am a believer in the Scripture which says, ‘Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his
arm’” (Charles Penrose, August 17, 1879, Journal of Discourses 20:295).
According to the Lord, those that heed every word of church leaders—whether they are from the Holy Ghost or
not—are described in D&C 76 as telestial spirits. Those of a celestial nature heed the word of God. “And the
glory of the telestial is one...For these are they who are of Paul, and of Apollos, and of Cephas. These are they
who say they are some of one and some of another—some of Christ and some of John, and some of Moses, and
some of Elias, and some of Esaias, and some of Isaiah, and some of Enoch; But received not the gospel, neither
the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant. Last of all, these all are they who
will not be gathered with the saints, to be caught up unto the church of the Firstborn, and received into the cloud.
These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes
a lie. These are they who suffer the wrath of God on earth. These are they who suffer the vengeance of eternal
fire. These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God, until the fulness of times,
when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work” (D&C 76:98-
106).
Those who follow men rather than God’s Spirit are accounted no better than liars, adulterers, and
whoremongers. Following our Lord’s word leads to the Tree of Life - eternal life. If a person focuses on a man
instead of searching for and receiving God's word in revelation and scripture, they will be damned to the telestial
kingdom.
Brigham Young stated, “Now those men, or those women, who know no more about the power of God, and the
influences of the Holy Spirit, than to be led entirely by another person, suspending their own understanding, and
pinning their faith upon another’s sleeve, will never be capable of entering into the celestial glory, to be crowned
as they anticipate; they will never be capable of becoming Gods...They never can become Gods, nor be crowned
as rulers with glory, immortality, and eternal lives. They never can hold scepters of glory, majesty, and power in
the celestial kingdom. Who will? Those who are valiant and inspired with the true independence of heaven, who
will go forth boldly in the service of their God, leaving others to do as they please, determined to do right,
though all mankind besides should take the opposite course” (Brigham Young, JD 1:312).
Pres. Young added, “What a pity it would be, if we were led by one man to utter destruction! Are you afraid of
this? I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for
themselves of God whether they are led by him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security,
trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart
the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken the influence they could give to their leaders, did they know
for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know,
themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not. This has been my exhortation
continually” (Brigham Young, JD 9:150).
We are charged by God to validate the truthfulness of what church leaders say. The Holy Ghost is the only
source of truth that will never lead us astray. So said Brigham Young. “The First Presidency have of right a
great influence over this people; and if we should get out of the way and lead this people to destruction, what a
pity it would be! How can you know whether we lead you correctly or not? Can you know by any other power
than that of the Holy Ghost? I have uniformly exhorted the people to obtain this living witness, each for
themselves; then no man on earth can lead them astray” (Brigham Young, JD 6:100).
Nephi stated, “…whoso would hearken unto the word of God, and would hold fast unto it, they would never
perish; neither could the temptations and the fiery darts of the adversary overpower them unto blindness, to lead
them away to destruction” (1 Nephi 15:24).
Sadly, the narrative embraced by too many today is that our leaders cannot lead us astray. This is well meaning
but incorrect teaching. We hear, “Keep your eyes riveted on the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve
Apostles. We will not lead you astray. We cannot” (M. Russell Ballard, October 2014 General Conference). We
are told to “stay in the boat” when there is troubled waters about us, that boat which is directed by men. Joseph
Smith’s last three dreams had him get out of a sinking boat two times and out of a burning barn a third. “Let me
remind you to stay in the course chartered by the Church. It is the Lord’s Church, and he will not permit it to be
led astray. If we take the counsel that comes from the prophets and seers, we will pursue the course that is
pleasing to the Lord” (Bruce R. McConkie, “Our Relationship With the Lord,” BYU Devotional March 2,
1982). “Keep your eye on the Prophet, for the Lord will never permit his Prophet to lead this Church astray”
(Ezra Taft Benson, Conference Report, October 1966, 123)
The Prophets of scripture and Joseph Smith tell us the opposite. “We have heard men who hold the priesthood
remark that they would do anything they were told to do by those who preside over them (even) if they knew it
was wrong; but such obedience as this is worse than folly to us; it is slavery in the extreme; and the man who
would thus willingly degrade himself, should not claim a rank among intelligent beings, until he turns from his
folly. A man of God would despise the idea. Others, in the extreme exercise of their almighty authority have
taught that such obedience was necessary, and that no matter what the saints were told to do by their presidents,
they should do it without any questions. When the Elders of Israel will so far indulge in these extreme notions of
obedience as to teach them to the people, it is generally because they have it in their hearts to do wrong
themselves” (Joseph Smith, Millennial Star, 14:38, pp.593-595).
Men are not saved through their allegiance to imperfect, fallen man, but through their diligent seeking of God
and following the Holy Ghost that results from it. True messengers sent of God and inspired servants of God on
Earth will always act in ways increasing our to God, not in ways that inflate their limited role as a middleman in
substitution of Christ and His Spirit as our mediator. True messengers do not seek for men to worship them, but
for men to worship God. They do not consider themselves more holy than those they are called to serve and do
not ask for special treatment – the praise of men and the filthy lucre often resulting from it. We read in the Book
of Mormon “...for thus saith the Lord; Ye shall not esteem one flesh above another, or one man shall not think
himself above another” (Mosiah 23:7).
II. Trust in God Scriptures
Hereafter is a small collection of scriptures that support looking to God, not man, for light. There are many
more. We begin with the exact, chiastic center scripture of the Bible, Psalm 118:8. It states:
“It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man” (Psalm 118:8).
“O LORD, I have trusted in thee, and I will trust in thee forever. I will not put my trust in the arm of flesh; for I
know that cursed is he that putteth his trust in the arm of flesh. Yea, cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or
maketh flesh his arm” (2 Nephi 4:34).
“Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men,
save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost” (2 Nephi 28:31).
“Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, that maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart
departeth from the Lord” (Jeremiah 17:5).
“For My people have committed two evils: They have forsaken Me, The fountain of living waters, To hew for
themselves cisterns, Broken cisterns That can hold no water” (Jeremiah 2:13).
“Forasmuch as this people refuseth the waters of Shiloah that go softly, and rejoice in Rezin and Remaliah's son;
Now therefore, behold, the Lord bringeth up upon them the waters of the river, strong and many, even the king
of Assyria, and all his glory: and he shall come” (Isaiah 8:6-7).
“For behold, you should not have feared man more than God. Although men set at naught the counsels of God,
and despise his words – Ye you should have been faithful; and he would have extended his arm and supported
you against all the fiery darts of the adversary; and he would have been with you in every time of trouble”
(D&C 3:7-8).
“For the leaders of the people cause them to err; and they that are led of them are destroyed” (2 Nephi 19:16).
“Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding” (Proverbs 3:5).
And now I command you, my servant Joseph, to repent and walk more uprightly before me, and to yield to the
persuasions of men no more” (D&C 5:21).
“Be strong and courageous, be not afraid nor dismayed for the king of Assyria, nor for all the multitude that is
with him: for there be more with us than with him: With him is an arm of flesh; but with us is the LORD our
God to help us, and to fight our battles” (2 Chronicles 32:7-8).
“Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God. They are
brought down and fallen: but we are risen, and stand upright. Save, LORD: let the king hear us when we call”
(Psalm 20:7).
“For I will trust not in my bow, neither shall my sword save me. But thou hast saved us from our enemies, and
hast put them to shame that hated us” (Psalm 44:6-7).
“It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in princes” (Psalm 118:9; 146:3).
“Woe to the rebellious children, saith the LORD, that take counsel, but not of me; and that cover with a
covering, but not of my Spirit, that they may add sin to sin: That walk to go down into Egypt, and have not
asked at my mouth; to strengthen themselves in the strength of Pharaoh, and to trust in the shadow of Egypt”
(Isaiah 30:1-2; Romans 8:1).
“Their land is full of idols; they worship the work of their own hands” (Isaiah 2:8).
III. It is the Same: God’s Words versus Man’s Words
Good men and inspired servants sent of the Lord do their best to quote God’s words as accurately as possible,
not adding to or taking away anything from them. These servants point to God as our source light and truth, not
themselves. Contrast this imperfect and corrupt men who seek the praise of the world and financial support from
others. God defines this as “priestcraft” (2 Ne. 26:29). Such live on the accolades of men and filthy lucre. They
raise themselves up as a light in replacement of God. Our Savior stated that He is the light we are look to, and
the things He does as our example (3 Ne. 18:24).
Thus Saith the Lord God’s words are powerful and important, much more so than those of any man. God
often introduces His word by using some variation of the phrase “Thus saith the Lord.” They alert us that we
should pay close attention to what follows. The Doctrine and Covenants has many such phrases. They include,
“Hearken unto me, saith the Lord your God" (Section 51); “Behold, I am God; give heed unto my word”
(Section 13); “Listen to the voice of Jesus Christ, your redeemer, the Great I AM” (section 29); "Listen to
the voice of the Lord your God, Even Alpha and Omega" (section 35), and so on.
Some things we read are not God’s words. An example of a so-called "revelation" from God in the Doctrine and
Covenants that did not come from Him is portions of Section 20. Elder James. E. Talmage read its first few
verses, believing that they were the words of Christ, or at least those given to Joseph Smith by Him. He believed
they were also tied to the Lord’s birth date. With this assumption, Elder Talmage added his own statements
about this probability in His book Jesus the Christ, stating that April 6th was most likely the Lord’s birthday.
This book statement is believed to have started our April 6th tradition for Christ’s birthday. In the Joseph Smith
Paper’s project, we have since learned that the words in the first few verses of D&C 20 are not those of the
Lord, nor those of a sent angel from His throne, nor those of the Prophet Joseph Smith. Instead, they are added
words of John Whitmer, Joseph Smith’s scribe at the time, used to introduce the reader to the rest of the section.
Elder Talmage’s mistaken belief that they were the Lord’s words has led to a now fully entrenched LDS
“tradition” that they also reveal our Lord’s birthdate (see the paper, “The LDS April 6th Tradition”).
God’s Words versus Man’s Words The introductory paragraph to D&C 20 (above it) states that it is a
“revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet,” yet this introduction, along with the first few verses of
Section 20 were written by a committee that compiled that particular edition of the scriptures in 1981. Nowhere
in this section does our Lord Jesus Christ identify these words as coming from Him.
We now know, thanks largely to the Joseph Smith Papers project, that section 20 is a hodgepodge of statements
thrown together by as many as six different early Church leaders, who did so in a hurry to get it ready for
publication. Joseph Smith the Prophet may have been among them, but the original document also shows other
“voices” that are not our Lord’s. This is especially true of the first few verses of D&C 20, which we now know
were written by John Whtimer, Joseph Smith’s scribe at the time. Additional verses in Section 20 may be
written by Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, or Sidney Rigdon, among others.
More importantly, many today assume these “servants” and others (like our General Authorities) are the
“servants” God referred to in verse 38 of Section 1 of the D&C, where the Lord states, “Whether it be by mine
own voice, or by the voice of my servants it is the same.” Many times they are not the same. We should
understand the context of this statement by God, and what He means by “his servants.” The voices in writing in
D&C 20, and many others today are not "the same voice” as God's, nor those of His chosen “angels” – those
sent from His throne who are His “servants” sent to quote Him directly, doing so accurately - word for word.
Thus, we should also be careful in how we use the word “servant” today and how we interpret D&C 1:38. We
should pay close attention to those servants sent of God who quote God’s words accurately. Statements by men
are much less important, not matter how well-meaning or eloquent they might be.
Does this mean that section 20 should be ignored? No. It contains many patterns for governing the operations of
the church. But some of those patterns were created by men (some believe they suggest a Campbellite
influence), and not necessarily the pattern laid out by God Himself for the Church.
Take for example, section 27, a revelation given in the voice of one of God's servants – this time an angel. One
day Joseph set out to buy some wine for the sacrament. On the way he was stopped by an angel, who warned
him he was about to purchase wine from his enemies, and that he might want to think twice about doing so in
case it was poisoned. The angel didn’t warn Joseph in his own words, adding His own commentary, but instead
saying, “Listen to the voice of Jesus Christ, your Lord, your God, and your redeemer, whose word is quick and
powerful.” From there the angel quoted God directly, delivering the message he was sent to deliver, accurately
and without embellishment. He recited it word for word just as if it had come from the mouth of God Himself.
He then departed. That is what it really means in D&C 1:38 when God said, “Whether it be by mine own voice,
or by the voice of my servants it is the same.”
In the October General Conferences of 2010 and 2014 a leader stood and quoted this verse of scripture, implying
that what followed would be the same as the Lord’s own words. It is was the Lord’s words, quoted exactly as He
gave them, then “they are the same.” Certainly there were edifying words spoken by these leaders, but this verse
in D&C 1 doesn’t necessarily mean the words of leaders past, present, or future are the words of Christ, unless
they are exactly His, or if they speaking under the power of the Holy Ghost (who is one with God and bears of
the truth of all things). Only then is one speaking with “the tongue of angels.”
We often place too much trust in “the arm of flesh.” This is one of the biggest problems in our current culture.
Where possible, we should verify all things said or written as God’s word by way of the Spirit. We read in 3
Nephi 19:8 about the Twelve Apostles at Bountiful and how they taught most effectively. “And when they had
ministered those same words which Jesus had spoken – nothing varying from the words which Jesus had
spoken – behold, they knelt again and prayed to the Father in the name of Jesus.” Here His servants spoke the
same words as Jesus, the people knowing that they were His. Then is the meaning of D&C 1:38 fulfilled,
“Whether it be by mine own voice, or by the voice of my servants it is the same.” Note verses 36 through 38 of
D&C 1 hereafter. The whole section is the Lord’s introduction to His own words that are to go forth to the world. He states:
37 Search these commandments, for they are true and faithful, and the prophecies and promises which are in
them shall all be fulfilled.
38 What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the
earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the
voice of my servants, it is the same.
39 For behold, and lo, the Lord is God, and the Spirit beareth record, and the record is true, and the truth
abideth forever and ever. Amen.
Note the Lord is counseling us to search these commandments - the ones in the revelations of this particular
book – that ARE HIS! No reference is made in this section to anything a Church leader might one day say in
the future. This is important in understanding the next verse, "What I the Lord have spoken I have spoken, and I
excuse not myself." They are His words, not mans. Our Lord is God. He makes no apologies for the precise
predictions He has made. Note that God is speaking in the past tense. What He has spoken He has spoken. This
is not a reference about what a future leader of the Church may say. He's referencing His own words here, and
His words alone. "And though the heavens and the earth may pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall
all be fulfilled." If our powerful God said it, then we can be sure it will happen.
The key question is, "what is the same" as His words, what is the same as His voice? He is talking about His
word as revealed in this book – the Doctrine and Covenants where His prophecies, His predictions, and the
judgments He assures us will come to pass are found. The servants He is referring to are those men to whom
these particular revelations in the D&C were given to and recorded by. This list includes Joseph and Hyrum
Smith, Oliver Cowdery, Sidney Rigdon, John, David, and Peter Whitmer, etc. We should not miss the clear
reference in them in verse 6 - to "my servants" - the very ones instructed by Him to publish these words to the world.
Thus, in Section 1 of the D&C, His introduction to His words that follow, God is telling His people that all the
prophecies foretold in the sections that follow this introduction will come to pass. Why - because He spoke it,
"and I excuse not myself.” His words are quick and powerful and will be fulfilled! This is the context of the
Lord’s words, “Whether it be by mine own voice, or by the voice of my servants it is the same.” He is not saying
that future leaders words are or will be His. He is saying that the words He gave past prophets in the Bible, Book
of Mormon, and those given Joseph Smith and others in the D&C - relative to coming judgments in our day -
will be fulfilled, but He gave them to these men. They are His words, given in revelation! They are not prepared
talks by men, not matter how good and well-intended they may be. If the talks are given under the power of the
Holy Ghost, then they are comparable to His words, but not necessarily the same.
Last Thoughts on Section 27 In the original Book of Commandments, Section 27 was 13 verses shorter
than it is today, ending in verse 5, with the statement, “for the hour cometh that I will drink of the fruit of the
vine with you, on the earth, and with all those whom my Father hath given me out of the world.” We learn in the
Joseph Smith Papers project that Oliver Cowdery added the extra 13 verses beyond verse 5 – those of God’s
angel, starting with a statement he says was made by Moroni. We see this in the later part of verse 5 when the
angel seems to suddenly shift gears, stating, "I will drink of the fruit of the vine with you on the earth, and with
Moroni...”
Nothing Oliver Cowdery added in section 27 has the same status as that of, “by my voice or the voice of my
servant.” The angel appearing to Joseph Smith spoke for God, providing nothing more or less than His words.
Note the Lord’s words regarding the words He gave His chosen servant Joseph Smith to give us. God states,
“Wherefore, meaning the church, thou shalt give heed unto all his words and commandments which he shall
give unto you as he receiveth them, walking in all holiness before me” (D&C 21:4). An important qualification
for a true messenger is that the word of God they carry be as brief as possible, that it originate from God, and
that it is accurate.
Idolatry It is important that we quote God and angels often and accurately. And it is important that we
quote God more often than men – the arm of flesh, in our talks to one another. We have replaced too many of
God’s words with those of men. Too many talks quote General Authorities over and over rather than the words
of God. Leaders often quote each other. Sometimes they quote themselves from past talks. God has instead
spoken to us! His words are powerful. We should reference His words more frequently, doing so accurately. A
good second choice is to quote those chosen messengers that quote Him word for word, those who are “sent
ones” from His presence and throne. When a servant, chosen and sent by God states, “thus saith the Lord,” we
should pay close attention to what follows, then confirm that they are indeed the Lord’s words. We should then
follow them. In this way we can avoid idolatry and deception.
What about the Atonement ?
WHO atoned for our sins.
Christ died for YOU, YOU alone.
Isn't it about time we stop living on borrowed light
and instead of just saying, "I follow the prophet"
say, "I will follow Jesus Christ - my Savior - the who who died for me.
All I can say is,
I've heard too many menbers just say, "I follow the prophet".
What does that really mean anyway?
They think that if they follow the prophet, they're saved some how,
like saying - "I'm good, I'm fine now, I don't need to do anything else."
You can't live or be saved on borrowed light.
If you follow the prophet or the GA's of the church
expecting to be saved, you will be lost.
You can not follow someone into heaven.
Following the prophet can't save you.
Going to church won't save you.
Following the prophet, is not following the Lord.
A prophet is still a man, and not the Lord.
All our focus, faith, trust and hope should be in Jesus Christ - our Savior and NOT in ANY MAN.
Why don't they say - I will follow the lord, and have Him as my guide,
have "His spirit to be with me".
To be saved, there is no middle man, except Christ.
We need to have a relationship with the Lord, not the prophet.
Jesus Christ is the ONLY one we need to follow and look to.
"I am the way, the truth, and the life:
no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."
John 14:6
We need to put our faith in Christ
It's CHRIST'S gospel and we need to look to him
and have his spirit with us to guide and direct us.
He's the one that died for us and the ONLY one that can save us.
"And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ,
we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ,
and we write according to our prophecies,
that our children may know to what source
they may look for a remission of their sins."
2 Nephi 25:26
"Wherefore, ye must press forward
with a steadfastness in Christ,
having a perfect brightness of hope,
and a love of God and of all men.
Wherefore, if ye shall press forward,
feasting upon the word of Christ,
and endure to the end, behold,
thus saith the Father:
Ye shall have eternal life."
2 Nephi 31:20
"Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ.
Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do."
2 Nephi 32
"And thus will the Father bear record of me, and the Holy Ghost will bear record unto him of the Father and me;
for the Father, and I, and the Holy Ghost are one."
3 Nephi 11:36
----------------------------------------------------
.Be Wary of Man and His Words Val Brinkerhoff
The Lord’s inspired servants do their best repeat God’s words as accurately as possible. They also point to Him
as the source of all light and truth. Imperfect and corrupt men, seeking the praise of the world and filthy lucre,
raise themselves up as a light in replacement of God. This paper addresses the false doctrine that men should be
lifted up as our source of light. Hereafter this paper is divided into three parts;
I. Statements by early LDS church leaders cautioning against putting trust in man;
II. Scriptures that support trusting God only; and
III. The misuse of God’s statement “Whether it be by mine own voice, or by the voice of my servants it is the same.”
I. Early Teachings in the LDS Church about Trusting Men
Consistent with the Lord’s words and scripture, early LDS church leaders taught members to avoid trusting in
leaders, and said that to do so was to trust in “the arm of the flesh.” Apostle George Q. Cannon stated, “Do not,
brethren, put your trust in man though he be a Bishop, an apostle or a president; if you do, they will fail you at
some time or place; they will do wrong or seem to, and your support will be gone; but if we lean on God, He
will never fail us. When men and women depend upon God alone and trust in him alone, their faith will not be
shaken if the highest in the Church should step aside” (George Q. Cannon, DW 43:322 [Mar 7, 1891]).
Apostle Charles Penrose, counselor to Pres. Brigham Young stated, “Our testimony does not depend upon
Joseph Smith; it does not depend upon Brigham Young; it does not depend upon John Taylor, or upon the
council of the Twelve Apostles, which is now the presiding quorum in the Church. I pin my faith to no man’s
sleeve; I am a believer in the Scripture which says, ‘Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his
arm’” (Charles Penrose, August 17, 1879, Journal of Discourses 20:295).
According to the Lord, those that heed every word of church leaders—whether they are from the Holy Ghost or
not—are described in D&C 76 as telestial spirits. Those of a celestial nature heed the word of God. “And the
glory of the telestial is one...For these are they who are of Paul, and of Apollos, and of Cephas. These are they
who say they are some of one and some of another—some of Christ and some of John, and some of Moses, and
some of Elias, and some of Esaias, and some of Isaiah, and some of Enoch; But received not the gospel, neither
the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant. Last of all, these all are they who
will not be gathered with the saints, to be caught up unto the church of the Firstborn, and received into the cloud.
These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes
a lie. These are they who suffer the wrath of God on earth. These are they who suffer the vengeance of eternal
fire. These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God, until the fulness of times,
when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work” (D&C 76:98-
106).
Those who follow men rather than God’s Spirit are accounted no better than liars, adulterers, and
whoremongers. Following our Lord’s word leads to the Tree of Life - eternal life. If a person focuses on a man
instead of searching for and receiving God's word in revelation and scripture, they will be damned to the telestial
kingdom.
Brigham Young stated, “Now those men, or those women, who know no more about the power of God, and the
influences of the Holy Spirit, than to be led entirely by another person, suspending their own understanding, and
pinning their faith upon another’s sleeve, will never be capable of entering into the celestial glory, to be crowned
as they anticipate; they will never be capable of becoming Gods...They never can become Gods, nor be crowned
as rulers with glory, immortality, and eternal lives. They never can hold scepters of glory, majesty, and power in
the celestial kingdom. Who will? Those who are valiant and inspired with the true independence of heaven, who
will go forth boldly in the service of their God, leaving others to do as they please, determined to do right,
though all mankind besides should take the opposite course” (Brigham Young, JD 1:312).
Pres. Young added, “What a pity it would be, if we were led by one man to utter destruction! Are you afraid of
this? I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for
themselves of God whether they are led by him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security,
trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart
the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken the influence they could give to their leaders, did they know
for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know,
themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not. This has been my exhortation
continually” (Brigham Young, JD 9:150).
We are charged by God to validate the truthfulness of what church leaders say. The Holy Ghost is the only
source of truth that will never lead us astray. So said Brigham Young. “The First Presidency have of right a
great influence over this people; and if we should get out of the way and lead this people to destruction, what a
pity it would be! How can you know whether we lead you correctly or not? Can you know by any other power
than that of the Holy Ghost? I have uniformly exhorted the people to obtain this living witness, each for
themselves; then no man on earth can lead them astray” (Brigham Young, JD 6:100).
Nephi stated, “…whoso would hearken unto the word of God, and would hold fast unto it, they would never
perish; neither could the temptations and the fiery darts of the adversary overpower them unto blindness, to lead
them away to destruction” (1 Nephi 15:24).
Sadly, the narrative embraced by too many today is that our leaders cannot lead us astray. This is well meaning
but incorrect teaching. We hear, “Keep your eyes riveted on the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve
Apostles. We will not lead you astray. We cannot” (M. Russell Ballard, October 2014 General Conference). We
are told to “stay in the boat” when there is troubled waters about us, that boat which is directed by men. Joseph
Smith’s last three dreams had him get out of a sinking boat two times and out of a burning barn a third. “Let me
remind you to stay in the course chartered by the Church. It is the Lord’s Church, and he will not permit it to be
led astray. If we take the counsel that comes from the prophets and seers, we will pursue the course that is
pleasing to the Lord” (Bruce R. McConkie, “Our Relationship With the Lord,” BYU Devotional March 2,
1982). “Keep your eye on the Prophet, for the Lord will never permit his Prophet to lead this Church astray”
(Ezra Taft Benson, Conference Report, October 1966, 123)
The Prophets of scripture and Joseph Smith tell us the opposite. “We have heard men who hold the priesthood
remark that they would do anything they were told to do by those who preside over them (even) if they knew it
was wrong; but such obedience as this is worse than folly to us; it is slavery in the extreme; and the man who
would thus willingly degrade himself, should not claim a rank among intelligent beings, until he turns from his
folly. A man of God would despise the idea. Others, in the extreme exercise of their almighty authority have
taught that such obedience was necessary, and that no matter what the saints were told to do by their presidents,
they should do it without any questions. When the Elders of Israel will so far indulge in these extreme notions of
obedience as to teach them to the people, it is generally because they have it in their hearts to do wrong
themselves” (Joseph Smith, Millennial Star, 14:38, pp.593-595).
Men are not saved through their allegiance to imperfect, fallen man, but through their diligent seeking of God
and following the Holy Ghost that results from it. True messengers sent of God and inspired servants of God on
Earth will always act in ways increasing our to God, not in ways that inflate their limited role as a middleman in
substitution of Christ and His Spirit as our mediator. True messengers do not seek for men to worship them, but
for men to worship God. They do not consider themselves more holy than those they are called to serve and do
not ask for special treatment – the praise of men and the filthy lucre often resulting from it. We read in the Book
of Mormon “...for thus saith the Lord; Ye shall not esteem one flesh above another, or one man shall not think
himself above another” (Mosiah 23:7).
II. Trust in God Scriptures
Hereafter is a small collection of scriptures that support looking to God, not man, for light. There are many
more. We begin with the exact, chiastic center scripture of the Bible, Psalm 118:8. It states:
“It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man” (Psalm 118:8).
“O LORD, I have trusted in thee, and I will trust in thee forever. I will not put my trust in the arm of flesh; for I
know that cursed is he that putteth his trust in the arm of flesh. Yea, cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or
maketh flesh his arm” (2 Nephi 4:34).
“Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men,
save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost” (2 Nephi 28:31).
“Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, that maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart
departeth from the Lord” (Jeremiah 17:5).
“For My people have committed two evils: They have forsaken Me, The fountain of living waters, To hew for
themselves cisterns, Broken cisterns That can hold no water” (Jeremiah 2:13).
“Forasmuch as this people refuseth the waters of Shiloah that go softly, and rejoice in Rezin and Remaliah's son;
Now therefore, behold, the Lord bringeth up upon them the waters of the river, strong and many, even the king
of Assyria, and all his glory: and he shall come” (Isaiah 8:6-7).
“For behold, you should not have feared man more than God. Although men set at naught the counsels of God,
and despise his words – Ye you should have been faithful; and he would have extended his arm and supported
you against all the fiery darts of the adversary; and he would have been with you in every time of trouble”
(D&C 3:7-8).
“For the leaders of the people cause them to err; and they that are led of them are destroyed” (2 Nephi 19:16).
“Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding” (Proverbs 3:5).
And now I command you, my servant Joseph, to repent and walk more uprightly before me, and to yield to the
persuasions of men no more” (D&C 5:21).
“Be strong and courageous, be not afraid nor dismayed for the king of Assyria, nor for all the multitude that is
with him: for there be more with us than with him: With him is an arm of flesh; but with us is the LORD our
God to help us, and to fight our battles” (2 Chronicles 32:7-8).
“Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God. They are
brought down and fallen: but we are risen, and stand upright. Save, LORD: let the king hear us when we call”
(Psalm 20:7).
“For I will trust not in my bow, neither shall my sword save me. But thou hast saved us from our enemies, and
hast put them to shame that hated us” (Psalm 44:6-7).
“It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in princes” (Psalm 118:9; 146:3).
“Woe to the rebellious children, saith the LORD, that take counsel, but not of me; and that cover with a
covering, but not of my Spirit, that they may add sin to sin: That walk to go down into Egypt, and have not
asked at my mouth; to strengthen themselves in the strength of Pharaoh, and to trust in the shadow of Egypt”
(Isaiah 30:1-2; Romans 8:1).
“Their land is full of idols; they worship the work of their own hands” (Isaiah 2:8).
III. It is the Same: God’s Words versus Man’s Words
Good men and inspired servants sent of the Lord do their best to quote God’s words as accurately as possible,
not adding to or taking away anything from them. These servants point to God as our source light and truth, not
themselves. Contrast this imperfect and corrupt men who seek the praise of the world and financial support from
others. God defines this as “priestcraft” (2 Ne. 26:29). Such live on the accolades of men and filthy lucre. They
raise themselves up as a light in replacement of God. Our Savior stated that He is the light we are look to, and
the things He does as our example (3 Ne. 18:24).
Thus Saith the Lord God’s words are powerful and important, much more so than those of any man. God
often introduces His word by using some variation of the phrase “Thus saith the Lord.” They alert us that we
should pay close attention to what follows. The Doctrine and Covenants has many such phrases. They include,
“Hearken unto me, saith the Lord your God" (Section 51); “Behold, I am God; give heed unto my word”
(Section 13); “Listen to the voice of Jesus Christ, your redeemer, the Great I AM” (section 29); "Listen to
the voice of the Lord your God, Even Alpha and Omega" (section 35), and so on.
Some things we read are not God’s words. An example of a so-called "revelation" from God in the Doctrine and
Covenants that did not come from Him is portions of Section 20. Elder James. E. Talmage read its first few
verses, believing that they were the words of Christ, or at least those given to Joseph Smith by Him. He believed
they were also tied to the Lord’s birth date. With this assumption, Elder Talmage added his own statements
about this probability in His book Jesus the Christ, stating that April 6th was most likely the Lord’s birthday.
This book statement is believed to have started our April 6th tradition for Christ’s birthday. In the Joseph Smith
Paper’s project, we have since learned that the words in the first few verses of D&C 20 are not those of the
Lord, nor those of a sent angel from His throne, nor those of the Prophet Joseph Smith. Instead, they are added
words of John Whitmer, Joseph Smith’s scribe at the time, used to introduce the reader to the rest of the section.
Elder Talmage’s mistaken belief that they were the Lord’s words has led to a now fully entrenched LDS
“tradition” that they also reveal our Lord’s birthdate (see the paper, “The LDS April 6th Tradition”).
God’s Words versus Man’s Words The introductory paragraph to D&C 20 (above it) states that it is a
“revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet,” yet this introduction, along with the first few verses of
Section 20 were written by a committee that compiled that particular edition of the scriptures in 1981. Nowhere
in this section does our Lord Jesus Christ identify these words as coming from Him.
We now know, thanks largely to the Joseph Smith Papers project, that section 20 is a hodgepodge of statements
thrown together by as many as six different early Church leaders, who did so in a hurry to get it ready for
publication. Joseph Smith the Prophet may have been among them, but the original document also shows other
“voices” that are not our Lord’s. This is especially true of the first few verses of D&C 20, which we now know
were written by John Whtimer, Joseph Smith’s scribe at the time. Additional verses in Section 20 may be
written by Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, or Sidney Rigdon, among others.
More importantly, many today assume these “servants” and others (like our General Authorities) are the
“servants” God referred to in verse 38 of Section 1 of the D&C, where the Lord states, “Whether it be by mine
own voice, or by the voice of my servants it is the same.” Many times they are not the same. We should
understand the context of this statement by God, and what He means by “his servants.” The voices in writing in
D&C 20, and many others today are not "the same voice” as God's, nor those of His chosen “angels” – those
sent from His throne who are His “servants” sent to quote Him directly, doing so accurately - word for word.
Thus, we should also be careful in how we use the word “servant” today and how we interpret D&C 1:38. We
should pay close attention to those servants sent of God who quote God’s words accurately. Statements by men
are much less important, not matter how well-meaning or eloquent they might be.
Does this mean that section 20 should be ignored? No. It contains many patterns for governing the operations of
the church. But some of those patterns were created by men (some believe they suggest a Campbellite
influence), and not necessarily the pattern laid out by God Himself for the Church.
Take for example, section 27, a revelation given in the voice of one of God's servants – this time an angel. One
day Joseph set out to buy some wine for the sacrament. On the way he was stopped by an angel, who warned
him he was about to purchase wine from his enemies, and that he might want to think twice about doing so in
case it was poisoned. The angel didn’t warn Joseph in his own words, adding His own commentary, but instead
saying, “Listen to the voice of Jesus Christ, your Lord, your God, and your redeemer, whose word is quick and
powerful.” From there the angel quoted God directly, delivering the message he was sent to deliver, accurately
and without embellishment. He recited it word for word just as if it had come from the mouth of God Himself.
He then departed. That is what it really means in D&C 1:38 when God said, “Whether it be by mine own voice,
or by the voice of my servants it is the same.”
In the October General Conferences of 2010 and 2014 a leader stood and quoted this verse of scripture, implying
that what followed would be the same as the Lord’s own words. It is was the Lord’s words, quoted exactly as He
gave them, then “they are the same.” Certainly there were edifying words spoken by these leaders, but this verse
in D&C 1 doesn’t necessarily mean the words of leaders past, present, or future are the words of Christ, unless
they are exactly His, or if they speaking under the power of the Holy Ghost (who is one with God and bears of
the truth of all things). Only then is one speaking with “the tongue of angels.”
We often place too much trust in “the arm of flesh.” This is one of the biggest problems in our current culture.
Where possible, we should verify all things said or written as God’s word by way of the Spirit. We read in 3
Nephi 19:8 about the Twelve Apostles at Bountiful and how they taught most effectively. “And when they had
ministered those same words which Jesus had spoken – nothing varying from the words which Jesus had
spoken – behold, they knelt again and prayed to the Father in the name of Jesus.” Here His servants spoke the
same words as Jesus, the people knowing that they were His. Then is the meaning of D&C 1:38 fulfilled,
“Whether it be by mine own voice, or by the voice of my servants it is the same.” Note verses 36 through 38 of
D&C 1 hereafter. The whole section is the Lord’s introduction to His own words that are to go forth to the world. He states:
37 Search these commandments, for they are true and faithful, and the prophecies and promises which are in
them shall all be fulfilled.
38 What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the
earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the
voice of my servants, it is the same.
39 For behold, and lo, the Lord is God, and the Spirit beareth record, and the record is true, and the truth
abideth forever and ever. Amen.
Note the Lord is counseling us to search these commandments - the ones in the revelations of this particular
book – that ARE HIS! No reference is made in this section to anything a Church leader might one day say in
the future. This is important in understanding the next verse, "What I the Lord have spoken I have spoken, and I
excuse not myself." They are His words, not mans. Our Lord is God. He makes no apologies for the precise
predictions He has made. Note that God is speaking in the past tense. What He has spoken He has spoken. This
is not a reference about what a future leader of the Church may say. He's referencing His own words here, and
His words alone. "And though the heavens and the earth may pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall
all be fulfilled." If our powerful God said it, then we can be sure it will happen.
The key question is, "what is the same" as His words, what is the same as His voice? He is talking about His
word as revealed in this book – the Doctrine and Covenants where His prophecies, His predictions, and the
judgments He assures us will come to pass are found. The servants He is referring to are those men to whom
these particular revelations in the D&C were given to and recorded by. This list includes Joseph and Hyrum
Smith, Oliver Cowdery, Sidney Rigdon, John, David, and Peter Whitmer, etc. We should not miss the clear
reference in them in verse 6 - to "my servants" - the very ones instructed by Him to publish these words to the world.
Thus, in Section 1 of the D&C, His introduction to His words that follow, God is telling His people that all the
prophecies foretold in the sections that follow this introduction will come to pass. Why - because He spoke it,
"and I excuse not myself.” His words are quick and powerful and will be fulfilled! This is the context of the
Lord’s words, “Whether it be by mine own voice, or by the voice of my servants it is the same.” He is not saying
that future leaders words are or will be His. He is saying that the words He gave past prophets in the Bible, Book
of Mormon, and those given Joseph Smith and others in the D&C - relative to coming judgments in our day -
will be fulfilled, but He gave them to these men. They are His words, given in revelation! They are not prepared
talks by men, not matter how good and well-intended they may be. If the talks are given under the power of the
Holy Ghost, then they are comparable to His words, but not necessarily the same.
Last Thoughts on Section 27 In the original Book of Commandments, Section 27 was 13 verses shorter
than it is today, ending in verse 5, with the statement, “for the hour cometh that I will drink of the fruit of the
vine with you, on the earth, and with all those whom my Father hath given me out of the world.” We learn in the
Joseph Smith Papers project that Oliver Cowdery added the extra 13 verses beyond verse 5 – those of God’s
angel, starting with a statement he says was made by Moroni. We see this in the later part of verse 5 when the
angel seems to suddenly shift gears, stating, "I will drink of the fruit of the vine with you on the earth, and with
Moroni...”
Nothing Oliver Cowdery added in section 27 has the same status as that of, “by my voice or the voice of my
servant.” The angel appearing to Joseph Smith spoke for God, providing nothing more or less than His words.
Note the Lord’s words regarding the words He gave His chosen servant Joseph Smith to give us. God states,
“Wherefore, meaning the church, thou shalt give heed unto all his words and commandments which he shall
give unto you as he receiveth them, walking in all holiness before me” (D&C 21:4). An important qualification
for a true messenger is that the word of God they carry be as brief as possible, that it originate from God, and
that it is accurate.
Idolatry It is important that we quote God and angels often and accurately. And it is important that we
quote God more often than men – the arm of flesh, in our talks to one another. We have replaced too many of
God’s words with those of men. Too many talks quote General Authorities over and over rather than the words
of God. Leaders often quote each other. Sometimes they quote themselves from past talks. God has instead
spoken to us! His words are powerful. We should reference His words more frequently, doing so accurately. A
good second choice is to quote those chosen messengers that quote Him word for word, those who are “sent
ones” from His presence and throne. When a servant, chosen and sent by God states, “thus saith the Lord,” we
should pay close attention to what follows, then confirm that they are indeed the Lord’s words. We should then
follow them. In this way we can avoid idolatry and deception.
Last edited by I AM on April 26th, 2018, 7:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
-
I AM
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 2456
Re: What are you doing to follow the Prophet?
I guess I look at it in a little bit different way.
Prophets can be good, and like the gospel, teach us many important things.
And while they can help guide you to the door. They can't let you in.
Only Christ can do that. Only Christ atoned for you and for me.
Prophets can led you, but they won't led you right to God, that's why we have Jesus Christ - our Savior.
"I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."
John 14:6
and the only way to know Christ, is to know Him for yourself,
the prophet can't do that for you, they can not led you to Christ.
Each person needs to come to Him, and know Him for themselves.
Prophets can be good, and like the gospel, teach us many important things.
And while they can help guide you to the door. They can't let you in.
Only Christ can do that. Only Christ atoned for you and for me.
Prophets can led you, but they won't led you right to God, that's why we have Jesus Christ - our Savior.
"I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."
John 14:6
and the only way to know Christ, is to know Him for yourself,
the prophet can't do that for you, they can not led you to Christ.
Each person needs to come to Him, and know Him for themselves.
Last edited by I AM on April 19th, 2018, 10:42 am, edited 2 times in total.
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DesertWonderer2
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 1171
-
Zathura
- Follow the Prophet
- Posts: 8801
Re: What are you doing to follow the Prophet?
I do not like the Term "Follow the Prophet", and I never will. I do not like the song "follow the prophet" , I do not like seeing little 4-10 year olds chanting the song every Sunday, sometimes 2-3 times in a single Sunday.
With that said, as Shadow shared in a separate thread, Church Leaders are there to stand beside us and point us towards Christ.
For me, the most important thing that President Nelson has talked about twice now has to do with Priesthood Power.
The Price of Priesthood Power
-------------April 2016-----------
"I fear that there are too many men who have been given the authority of the priesthood but who lack priesthood power because the flow of power has been blocked by sins such as laziness, dishonesty, pride, immorality, or preoccupation with things of the world."
"I fear that there are too many priesthood bearers who have done little or nothing to develop their ability to access the powers of heaven. I worry about all who are impure in their thoughts, feelings, or actions or who demean their wives or children, thereby cutting off priesthood power."
"In a coming day, only those men who have taken their priesthood seriously, by diligently seeking to be taught by the Lord Himself, will be able to bless, guide, protect, strengthen, and heal others. Only a man who has paid the price for priesthood power will be able to bring miracles to those he loves and keep his marriage and family safe, now and throughout eternity."
"How else can we increase our power in the priesthood? We need to pray from our hearts. Polite recitations of past and upcoming activities, punctuated with some requests for blessings, cannot constitute the kind of communing with God that brings enduring power. Are you willing to pray to know how to pray for more power? The Lord will teach you."
"Are you willing to search the scriptures and feast on the words of Christ—to study earnestly in order to have more power"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ministering with the Power and Authority of God
-------------April 2018-----------
"Too many of our brothers and sisters do not fully understand the concept of priesthood power and authority"
...do not grasp the privileges that could be theirs.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I take these messages and think of D&C 121:
We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Because of my own personal experiences, I see that I am included in that. What is unrighteous dominion? what does it entail?
President Nelson mentioned pride, laziness, preoccupation for things of the world. What does that entail?
The Lord's standard is higher that ours. What is pride to God might not appear to be pride to us.
I have had priesthood power for a time and exercised it. I have had times(most of the time) where I do not have this priesthood power. This why I can testify that President Nelson is correct, he spoke truth. I absolutely see that I did not understand what I could potentially have. The flow of power was blocked by sin. When the "big" sins were gone, it was blocked by laziness. When I was diligent it was blocked by preoccupation of things of the world. When I wasn't preoccupied, wasn't lazy, was obeying the commandments, something was MISSING.
As President Nelson said, EARNEST STUDY. When I studied earnestly, something was MISSING.
As President Nelson said, PRAY FROM OUR HEARTS. When I did that repeatedly, something was MISSING.
I realized, as President Nelson says WILL HAPPEN, the Lord taught me. The Lord taught me that I CANNOT GAIN THIS POWER ON MY OWN. My efforts will never "EARN" this power.
Eventually the Holy Ghost descended upon me with great power. I was filled with Joy, and suddenly I had power that I never had before. Priesthood power.
What was this experience? I always refer to it as the Baptism of Fire, however, recently I realized that may not be the proper "technical term" for it and confuses people. I believe the Baptism of Fire and Holy Ghost is the reception of the Holy Ghost, and that is when you are reborn. I use the term Baptism of Fire because these other experiences besides the actual event where I received the Holy Ghost feel IDENTICAL to that moment, hence why I use the term Baptism of Fire.
Let me use some scriptural examples:
Alma 31:36 Now it came to pass that when Alma had said these words, that he clapped his hands upon all them who were with him. And behold, as he clapped his hands upon them, they were filled with the Holy Spirit.
Mosiah 18:12-13 12 And now it came to pass that Alma took Helam, he being one of the first, and went and stood forth in the water, and cried, saying: O Lord, pour out thy Spirit upon thy servant, that he may do this work with holiness of heart.
13 And when he had said these words, the Spirit of the Lord was upon him...
3 Nephi 19:13 And it came to pass when they were all baptized and had come up out of the water, the Holy Ghost did fall upon them, and they were filled with the Holy Ghost and with fire.
Moses 5:9 And in that day the Holy Ghost fell upon Adam, which beareth record of the Father and the Son,saying
Moses 6:26 And it came to pass that Enoch journeyed in the land, among the people; and as he journeyed, the Spirit of God descended out of heaven, and abode upon him.
1 Nephi 2:16 16 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, being exceedingly young, nevertheless being large in stature, and also having great desires to know of the mysteries of God, wherefore, I did cry unto the Lord; and behold he did visit me, and did soften my heart that I did believe all the words which had been spoken by my father; wherefore, I did not rebel against him like unto my brothers.
1 Nephi 1:78 And it came to pass that he returned to his own house at Jerusalem; and he cast himself upon his bed, being overcome with the Spirit and the things which he had seen.
8 And being thus overcome with the Spirit
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Okay, so here are the terms I see.
"Holy Ghost fell upon", "Spirit of God Descended", "he did visit me", Overcome with the Spirit", "They were filled".
There are more examples, but we will stick with these.
As a result of my personal experience, I believe most of these are identical to my "Baptism of Fire" experiences. "Baptism of Fire" rolls off the tongue better than "The Spirit descended upon me" .
I think some of these experiences and examples I used that we see in the scriptures are most likely those moments where it's not quite an extraordinary manifestation of the Spirit, but instead that warmth that fills and expands your soul. However, I believe a majority of these examples I used, and those like it were the "Baptism of Fire", they just didn't make a big deal out of it and referred it it as these other terms.
It is these times that I experienced the above examples /stories that I realized I finally had Priesthood Power.
I felt something watching Priesthood Session of April 2018 that I had never felt at General Conference before. I believe the President Nelson has been directed of God to urge us to do these things , so that we can have Priesthood Power and RETAIN IT.
With that said, as Shadow shared in a separate thread, Church Leaders are there to stand beside us and point us towards Christ.
For me, the most important thing that President Nelson has talked about twice now has to do with Priesthood Power.
The Price of Priesthood Power
-------------April 2016-----------
"I fear that there are too many men who have been given the authority of the priesthood but who lack priesthood power because the flow of power has been blocked by sins such as laziness, dishonesty, pride, immorality, or preoccupation with things of the world."
"I fear that there are too many priesthood bearers who have done little or nothing to develop their ability to access the powers of heaven. I worry about all who are impure in their thoughts, feelings, or actions or who demean their wives or children, thereby cutting off priesthood power."
"In a coming day, only those men who have taken their priesthood seriously, by diligently seeking to be taught by the Lord Himself, will be able to bless, guide, protect, strengthen, and heal others. Only a man who has paid the price for priesthood power will be able to bring miracles to those he loves and keep his marriage and family safe, now and throughout eternity."
"How else can we increase our power in the priesthood? We need to pray from our hearts. Polite recitations of past and upcoming activities, punctuated with some requests for blessings, cannot constitute the kind of communing with God that brings enduring power. Are you willing to pray to know how to pray for more power? The Lord will teach you."
"Are you willing to search the scriptures and feast on the words of Christ—to study earnestly in order to have more power"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ministering with the Power and Authority of God
-------------April 2018-----------
"Too many of our brothers and sisters do not fully understand the concept of priesthood power and authority"
...do not grasp the privileges that could be theirs.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I take these messages and think of D&C 121:
We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Because of my own personal experiences, I see that I am included in that. What is unrighteous dominion? what does it entail?
President Nelson mentioned pride, laziness, preoccupation for things of the world. What does that entail?
The Lord's standard is higher that ours. What is pride to God might not appear to be pride to us.
I have had priesthood power for a time and exercised it. I have had times(most of the time) where I do not have this priesthood power. This why I can testify that President Nelson is correct, he spoke truth. I absolutely see that I did not understand what I could potentially have. The flow of power was blocked by sin. When the "big" sins were gone, it was blocked by laziness. When I was diligent it was blocked by preoccupation of things of the world. When I wasn't preoccupied, wasn't lazy, was obeying the commandments, something was MISSING.
As President Nelson said, EARNEST STUDY. When I studied earnestly, something was MISSING.
As President Nelson said, PRAY FROM OUR HEARTS. When I did that repeatedly, something was MISSING.
I realized, as President Nelson says WILL HAPPEN, the Lord taught me. The Lord taught me that I CANNOT GAIN THIS POWER ON MY OWN. My efforts will never "EARN" this power.
Eventually the Holy Ghost descended upon me with great power. I was filled with Joy, and suddenly I had power that I never had before. Priesthood power.
What was this experience? I always refer to it as the Baptism of Fire, however, recently I realized that may not be the proper "technical term" for it and confuses people. I believe the Baptism of Fire and Holy Ghost is the reception of the Holy Ghost, and that is when you are reborn. I use the term Baptism of Fire because these other experiences besides the actual event where I received the Holy Ghost feel IDENTICAL to that moment, hence why I use the term Baptism of Fire.
Let me use some scriptural examples:
Alma 31:36 Now it came to pass that when Alma had said these words, that he clapped his hands upon all them who were with him. And behold, as he clapped his hands upon them, they were filled with the Holy Spirit.
Mosiah 18:12-13 12 And now it came to pass that Alma took Helam, he being one of the first, and went and stood forth in the water, and cried, saying: O Lord, pour out thy Spirit upon thy servant, that he may do this work with holiness of heart.
13 And when he had said these words, the Spirit of the Lord was upon him...
3 Nephi 19:13 And it came to pass when they were all baptized and had come up out of the water, the Holy Ghost did fall upon them, and they were filled with the Holy Ghost and with fire.
Moses 5:9 And in that day the Holy Ghost fell upon Adam, which beareth record of the Father and the Son,saying
Moses 6:26 And it came to pass that Enoch journeyed in the land, among the people; and as he journeyed, the Spirit of God descended out of heaven, and abode upon him.
1 Nephi 2:16 16 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, being exceedingly young, nevertheless being large in stature, and also having great desires to know of the mysteries of God, wherefore, I did cry unto the Lord; and behold he did visit me, and did soften my heart that I did believe all the words which had been spoken by my father; wherefore, I did not rebel against him like unto my brothers.
1 Nephi 1:78 And it came to pass that he returned to his own house at Jerusalem; and he cast himself upon his bed, being overcome with the Spirit and the things which he had seen.
8 And being thus overcome with the Spirit
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Okay, so here are the terms I see.
"Holy Ghost fell upon", "Spirit of God Descended", "he did visit me", Overcome with the Spirit", "They were filled".
There are more examples, but we will stick with these.
As a result of my personal experience, I believe most of these are identical to my "Baptism of Fire" experiences. "Baptism of Fire" rolls off the tongue better than "The Spirit descended upon me" .
I think some of these experiences and examples I used that we see in the scriptures are most likely those moments where it's not quite an extraordinary manifestation of the Spirit, but instead that warmth that fills and expands your soul. However, I believe a majority of these examples I used, and those like it were the "Baptism of Fire", they just didn't make a big deal out of it and referred it it as these other terms.
It is these times that I experienced the above examples /stories that I realized I finally had Priesthood Power.
I felt something watching Priesthood Session of April 2018 that I had never felt at General Conference before. I believe the President Nelson has been directed of God to urge us to do these things , so that we can have Priesthood Power and RETAIN IT.
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DesertWonderer2
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 1171
Re: What are you doing to follow the Prophet?
Wait...so you ARE following the prophet even though you “don’t like that term and never will”. I’m so confuuuuuuused!
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Zathura
- Follow the Prophet
- Posts: 8801
Re: What are you doing to follow the Prophet?
I'm not following the Prophet. I'm following Jesus Christ , and the prophet is there along side me following Jesus Christ as well.DesertWonderer2 wrote: ↑April 19th, 2018, 3:44 pm Wait...so you ARE following the prophet even though you “don’t like that term and never will”. I’m so confuuuuuuused!
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Finrock
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 4426
Re: What are you doing to follow the Prophet?
No offense intended to the OP, but, I can't tell you how many times I've decided that I'm going to listen to nothing but conference talks, and/or be 100% on my home teaching, and/or I'm going to have family home evening every Monday, and/or I'm going to use every spare moment I have to read scriptures, and/or I'm going to start meeting weekly with quorum presidency, and/or I'm going to go to the temple every month...
But, don't ask me how I'm doing with these goals three years later...
In my experience its Jesus that matters. Do whatever the scriptures tell you to do to have Jesus with you. Obtain the Holy Ghost and follow Him. Instant attainable goals, instant power to achieve, its not a burden, its not forced, and we act out of a sense of love which is so much more satisfying than acting out of a desire for more blessings. Blessings will come regardless, trust me. God blesses the evil every day, all day long. He loves His children and we don't need to "earn" blessings from Him. If we remain humble and contrite, as a child, then we are choosing to allow God to fight our battles, choosing to allow God to empower us, choosing to allow God to direct us so that our efforts will not be in vain. Trust in the Holy Spirit, just as the prophets testify, and the Spirit will lead you to Jesus Christ, who is the author and the finisher of your salvation.
-Finrock
But, don't ask me how I'm doing with these goals three years later...
In my experience its Jesus that matters. Do whatever the scriptures tell you to do to have Jesus with you. Obtain the Holy Ghost and follow Him. Instant attainable goals, instant power to achieve, its not a burden, its not forced, and we act out of a sense of love which is so much more satisfying than acting out of a desire for more blessings. Blessings will come regardless, trust me. God blesses the evil every day, all day long. He loves His children and we don't need to "earn" blessings from Him. If we remain humble and contrite, as a child, then we are choosing to allow God to fight our battles, choosing to allow God to empower us, choosing to allow God to direct us so that our efforts will not be in vain. Trust in the Holy Spirit, just as the prophets testify, and the Spirit will lead you to Jesus Christ, who is the author and the finisher of your salvation.
-Finrock
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roycelerwick
- captain of 50
- Posts: 79
Re: What are you doing to follow the Prophet?
Stahura wrote: ↑April 19th, 2018, 12:34 pm I do not like the Term "Follow the Prophet", and I never will. I do not like the song "follow the prophet" , I do not like seeing little 4-10 year olds chanting the song every Sunday, sometimes 2-3 times in a single Sunday.
Creepiest cult song ever. But the reality is, about 90% of what any give current "prophet" says is irrelevant to the central principles of Christianity.
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sushi_chef
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 3693
- Location: tokyo, jpn
Re: What are you doing to follow the Prophet?
urrrrr....ummmm....,
hopefully its, op, not sarcastic stuff intended and not applied to lds, but lo-behold, chapter 34 reads,
"1 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto the shepherds; Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks?
3 Ye eat the fat, and ye clothe you with the wool, ye kill them that are fed: but ye feed not the flock.
4 The diseased have ye not strengthened, neither have ye healed that which was sick, neither have ye bound up that which was broken, neither have ye brought again that which was driven away, neither have ye sought that which was lost; but with force and with cruelty have ye ruled them.
5 And they were scattered, because there is no shepherd: and they became meat to all the beasts of the field, when they were scattered.
6 My sheep wandered through all the mountains, and upon every high hill: yea, my flock was scattered upon all the face of the earth, and none did search or seek after them.
7 Therefore, ye shepherds, hear the word of the LORD;
8 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely because my flock became a prey, and my flock became meat to every beast of the field, because there was no shepherd, neither did my shepherds search for my flock, but the shepherds fed themselves, and fed not my flock;
9 Therefore, O ye shepherds, hear the word of the LORD;
10 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against the shepherds; and I will require my flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more;....
"
that kinda reminds sushi_ book of enoch(ethiopia) part indicates latter-day?!, has to look up some copies of the pages....in sushi_ pigsty room....
but if thats the case, thats warning!! how slippery in latter-days to be truely a saint!!
hopefully its, op, not sarcastic stuff intended and not applied to lds, but lo-behold, chapter 34 reads,
"1 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto the shepherds; Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks?
3 Ye eat the fat, and ye clothe you with the wool, ye kill them that are fed: but ye feed not the flock.
4 The diseased have ye not strengthened, neither have ye healed that which was sick, neither have ye bound up that which was broken, neither have ye brought again that which was driven away, neither have ye sought that which was lost; but with force and with cruelty have ye ruled them.
5 And they were scattered, because there is no shepherd: and they became meat to all the beasts of the field, when they were scattered.
6 My sheep wandered through all the mountains, and upon every high hill: yea, my flock was scattered upon all the face of the earth, and none did search or seek after them.
7 Therefore, ye shepherds, hear the word of the LORD;
8 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely because my flock became a prey, and my flock became meat to every beast of the field, because there was no shepherd, neither did my shepherds search for my flock, but the shepherds fed themselves, and fed not my flock;
9 Therefore, O ye shepherds, hear the word of the LORD;
10 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against the shepherds; and I will require my flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more;....
"
that kinda reminds sushi_ book of enoch(ethiopia) part indicates latter-day?!, has to look up some copies of the pages....in sushi_ pigsty room....
but if thats the case, thats warning!! how slippery in latter-days to be truely a saint!!
-
drtanner
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 1850
Re: What are you doing to follow the Prophet?
Thank you for your testimony and love for Christ!Onsdag wrote: ↑April 13th, 2018, 4:17 pm "And they come unto thee as the people cometh, and they sit before thee as my people, and they hear thy words, but they will not do them: for with their mouth they shew much love, but their heart goeth after their covetousness. And, lo, thou art unto them as a very lovely song of one that hath a pleasant voice, and can play well on an instrument: for they hear thy words, but they do them not. And when this cometh to pass, (lo, it will come,) then shall they know that a prophet hath been among them." -Ezekiel 33:31-33
It has been nearly two weeks now since we've had General Conference, at which time we've had the great blessing and honor to come together as the Lord's people, to hear the words of God through the Lord's Prophets, Apostles, and other servants. Their words and messages have been truly beautiful, uplifting, and divinely inspired. I have seen a lot of memes come out from this Conference which invite a smile or a chuckle, and have heard people say many great things about it. My fear though is expressed in the scripture above - "for they hear thy words, but they do them not" and "they hear thy words, but they will not do them: for with their mouth they shew much love, but their heart goeth after their covetousness."
I don't want us as a people and as individuals to walk away from this Conference thinking "Oh, wasn't that lovely," but then returning to our homes and daily life and quickly forgetting the things we have learned and heard, and not allowing those things to affect a change in our hearts and lives. Brothers and sisters, family and friends, my question for you, and indeed each of us, is what are we doing or going to do to follow the counsel and instruction we have received?
I'll briefly share just one thing that I have been doing to follow the counsel of the Prophet. Please don't mistake what I share as boasting or to draw attention to myself; I only do so to testify of the blessings that can come from heeding the words of the Lord's anointed servants and to invite each of you to experience these things for yourself. The Prophet, President Russell M. Nelson said this:
"I exhort you to study the messages of this conference frequently—even repeatedly—during the next six months. Conscientiously look for ways to incorporate these messages in your family home evenings, your gospel teaching, your conversations with family and friends, and even your discussions with those not of our faith. Many good people will respond to the truths taught in this conference when offered in love. And your desire to obey will be enhanced as you remember and reflect upon what you have felt these past two days."
I work at Papa John's Pizza as a delivery driver. When I'm on the road I have a lot of time that has, in the past, been spent listening to CD's, music, the radio, or just in silence. However, after hearing those words from President Nelson "to study the messages of this conference frequently—even repeatedly" I have made some changes. I have downloaded all of the Conference talks and music onto my phone and have been listening to them repeatedly as I'm driving for work or elsewhere. I have also begun studying the talks in their written form. But more than just studying and listening to the word, I have been striving to "conscientiously look for ways to incorporate these messages" into my life and daily activities.
The blessings I have received thus far - only two weeks now - have been truly life changing and wonderful! To borrow from Elder Renlund's promised list of blessings, these have been just some of the blessings I have received from doing the things a Prophet of God has asked me:
• Increased understanding of the Savior and His atoning sacrifice;
• Increased influence of the Holy Ghost to feel strength and direction for our own lives;
• Increased faith, so that conversion to the Savior becomes deep and abiding;
• Increased ability and motivation to learn and repent because of an understanding of who we are, where we come from, and a clearer vision of where we are going;
• Increased refining, sanctifying, and moderating influences in our hearts;
• Increased joy through an increased ability to feel the love of the Lord;
• Increased family blessings, no matter our current, past, or future family situation or how imperfect our family tree may be;
• Increased love and appreciation for ancestors and living relatives, so we no longer feel alone;
• Increased power to discern that which needs healing and thus, with the Lord’s help, serve others;
• Increased protection from temptations and the intensifying influence of the adversary; and
• Increased assistance to mend troubled, broken, or anxious hearts and make the wounded whole.
Add to that here are some more which I have experienced:
• Increased faith, hope, and joy for the future and the promised blessings that await.
• Increased power to overcome doubts, fears, a troubled mind, and a greater desire and capacity to try harder.
• Increased love for all people.
• A more certain knowledge of the Lord's love for me, in spite of my weaknesses and failings.
• Increased desire and ability to focus on, and appreciate, the good things in life.
• A greater appreciation for the challenges in life as well, for "all these things shall give thee experience, and shall be for thy good."
I could go on, but this is sufficient. I add my voice and testimony to that of our Prophet, President Nelson. I know "that we are engaged in the work of Almighty God! Jesus is the Christ. This is His Church, which He directs through His anointed servants." I know that we are in the last days preceding the second coming of Jesus Christ, and that in a day not far distant we shall see Him and know that He is. I know that He loves each and every one of us, and has done all things for our salvation - if we but believe and follow Him. Oh how I love Him and desire to become more like Him! Even though I am so very far away from that goal I know that with His help, and the help of others, I can eventually reach that goal! And I invite each of you to aim for that goal as well. Let us each do the things that we need to in order to become as He is, is my hope and prayer.
I also love the desires you have to follow him by listening to those called by him and your desire to pattern your life after him. Nowhere in your post did I get the feeling that you are trusting in the arm of flesh or that your are not trying to make him your #1 priority, in fact just the opposite.
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Zathura
- Follow the Prophet
- Posts: 8801
Re: What are you doing to follow the Prophet?
roycelerwick wrote: ↑April 19th, 2018, 5:01 pmroycelerwick wrote: ↑April 19th, 2018, 5:01 pm Creepiest cult song ever. But the reality is, about 90% of what any give current "prophet" says is irrelevant to the central principles of Christianity.
It is cultish, it was extremely uncomfortable when I taught primary seeing these 4-10 year olds singing it 2-3 times in a row .
With that said, I do find gems and profound teachings in General Confetence here and there. I’ve long discussed this topic , and have always wished they talked about the Doctrine of Christ more, but I don’t know.. I just Hope and believe they are inspired
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drtanner
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 1850
Re: What are you doing to follow the Prophet?
One of my favorite invitations from President Nelson was when he invited us to do the following:
Study everything Jesus said and did as recorded in the Old Testament.
Study His laws as recorded in the New Testament.
Study His doctrine as recorded in the Book of Mormon.
Study His words as recorded in the Doctrine and Covenants.
He gave the invitation to all of the young single adults previous to this conference and added:
“in a coming day, you will present yourself before the Savior. You will be overwhelmed to the point of tears to be in His holy presence. You will struggle to find words to thank Him for paying for your sins, for forgiving you of any unkindness toward others, for healing you from the injuries and injustices of this life.
You will thank Him for strengthening you to do the impossible, for turning your weaknesses into strengths, and for making it possible for you to live with Him and your family forever. His identity, His Atonement, and His attributes will become personal and real to you.
But you don’t have to wait until then. Choose to be one of His true disciples now. Be one who truly loves Him, who truly wants to serve and lead as He did. I promise you that if you will study His words, your ability to be more like Him will increase. I know this is true.”
Perhaps what motivates me most of all to follow President Nelsons council and believe his words is his kindness and meekness. The way he treats others is evidence to me of the witness he has. That is also the reason I ignore much of the proclaimed witnesses out there. All lips and no love. There are a few in life and on the forum however who I see treating others with kindness even when they surely do not deserve it. It is clear evidence of who is truly striving to be like him and plants in me greater desires to love even my enemies.
Study everything Jesus said and did as recorded in the Old Testament.
Study His laws as recorded in the New Testament.
Study His doctrine as recorded in the Book of Mormon.
Study His words as recorded in the Doctrine and Covenants.
He gave the invitation to all of the young single adults previous to this conference and added:
“in a coming day, you will present yourself before the Savior. You will be overwhelmed to the point of tears to be in His holy presence. You will struggle to find words to thank Him for paying for your sins, for forgiving you of any unkindness toward others, for healing you from the injuries and injustices of this life.
You will thank Him for strengthening you to do the impossible, for turning your weaknesses into strengths, and for making it possible for you to live with Him and your family forever. His identity, His Atonement, and His attributes will become personal and real to you.
But you don’t have to wait until then. Choose to be one of His true disciples now. Be one who truly loves Him, who truly wants to serve and lead as He did. I promise you that if you will study His words, your ability to be more like Him will increase. I know this is true.”
Perhaps what motivates me most of all to follow President Nelsons council and believe his words is his kindness and meekness. The way he treats others is evidence to me of the witness he has. That is also the reason I ignore much of the proclaimed witnesses out there. All lips and no love. There are a few in life and on the forum however who I see treating others with kindness even when they surely do not deserve it. It is clear evidence of who is truly striving to be like him and plants in me greater desires to love even my enemies.
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eddie
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 2405
Re: What are you doing to follow the Prophet?
FOLLOW THE PROPHET
- President Nelson.JPG (82.64 KiB) Viewed 5541 times
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sushi_chef
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 3693
- Location: tokyo, jpn
Re: What are you doing to follow the Prophet?
probably its alright for leaders own salvations besides they have already had second anointing so on...
now back to 34, this chapter is about regathering and its been on going and will continue, correct?!
"17 And as for you, O my flock, thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I judge between cattle and cattle, between the rams and the he goats.
"
this tells members final stage will be categorized into either rams or he goats class.
and someone writes comparing 34 with matthew 25:31-46,
(31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink....
)
https://www2.ph.ed.ac.uk/~wckp/Sermons/201111.pdf
so, probably church system is alright, producing all rams?!
now back to 34, this chapter is about regathering and its been on going and will continue, correct?!
"17 And as for you, O my flock, thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I judge between cattle and cattle, between the rams and the he goats.
"
this tells members final stage will be categorized into either rams or he goats class.
and someone writes comparing 34 with matthew 25:31-46,
(31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink....
)
https://www2.ph.ed.ac.uk/~wckp/Sermons/201111.pdf
so, probably church system is alright, producing all rams?!
-
Onsdag
- captain of 100
- Posts: 798
Re: What are you doing to follow the Prophet?
I apologize for not following through with this thread. Things have been really busy of late for me, and even now I don't have time to add much. I would, however, like to make a small course correction for this thread. I did not start this thread to debate the validity of following a Prophet of God. Nor did I start it to argue doctrine about putting one's trust in the arm of flesh and if following the Prophet is good or bad. My point and the purpose of this thread was to ask and have you answer (whether publicly, or privately) the simple question:
"What are you doing to follow the Prophet?"
And I would thank everyone to please keep this thread focused on answering that question and sharing your own personal experiences and testimony of following the Prophets of God.
"What are you doing to follow the Prophet?"
And I would thank everyone to please keep this thread focused on answering that question and sharing your own personal experiences and testimony of following the Prophets of God.
-
marc
- Disciple of Jesus Christ
- Posts: 10475
- Contact:
Re: What are you doing to follow the Prophet?
I am thankful for prophets who have declared that Jesus Christ lives because they have seen Him face to face and have been ministered to by Him and declare that I have the privilege or a duty to do the same. I am endeavoring to follow in their footsteps.
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drtanner
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 1850
Re: What are you doing to follow the Prophet?
I'm not sure how much clearer it can get:
When you reach up for the Lord’s power in your life with the same intensity that a drowning person has when grasping and gasping for air, power from Jesus Christ will be yours. When the Savior knows you truly want to reach up to Him—when He can feel that the greatest desire of your heart is to draw His power into your life—you will be led by the Holy Ghost to know exactly what you should do.
When you spiritually stretch beyond anything you have ever done before, then His power will flow into you. And then you will understand the deep meaning of words we sing in the hymn “The Spirit of God”:
The Lord is extending the Saints’ understanding. …
The knowledge and power of God are expanding;
The veil o’er the earth is beginning to burst.
The gospel of Jesus Christ is filled with His power, which is available to every earnestly seeking daughter or son of God. It is my testimony that when we draw His power into our lives, both He and we will rejoice.24
As one of His special witnesses, I declare that God lives! Jesus is the Christ! His Church has been restored to the earth!
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marc
- Disciple of Jesus Christ
- Posts: 10475
- Contact:
Re: What are you doing to follow the Prophet?
A young man who was a student of Socrates wanted to know the secret of success. Socrates told him that if he was really serious, he would meet him tomorrow on the shore at first daylight. The following morning, the student waited for Socrates to arrive at the shore. When Socrates came, he asked his student if he was really serious about wanting to know the secret. The student said he would do anything. Socrates walked out into the water and asked the young man to follow him. As they both got about chest deep, Socrates turned around to his student and then pushed his head down under the water. The student's arms flailed as he tried to come up for air, but the older and larger teacher kept his head under. The student tried with all his might to wrestle his head free from his teacher's grip, wriggling and kicking madly. Just as he was about to choke on his first gulp of water, Socrates released his grasp and pulled his student up and watched as he frantically breathed life giving air into his lungs. He then asked his student why he wrestled with him rather than just give up and die. The student said he desperately wanted to live. Socrates replied telling his student when he wants to succeed as desperately as he wanted air and to live, then he will succeed.
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Mindfields
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 1923
- Location: Utah
Re: What are you doing to follow the Prophet?
When a Prophet speaks words given to him from God then I would study them, pray for understanding and if confirmed truly from God then follow those words. I would never follow a man, Prophet or not, never.
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Mark
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 6929
Re: What are you doing to follow the Prophet?
I AM wrote: ↑April 19th, 2018, 10:05 am I don't put my trust in the "arm of flesh."
What about the Atonement ?
WHO atoned for our sins.
Christ died for YOU, YOU alone.
Isn't it about time we stop living on borrowed light
and instead of just saying, "I follow the prophet"
say, "I will follow Jesus Christ - my Savior - the who who died for me.
All I can say is,
I've heard too many menbers just say, "I follow the prophet".
What does that really mean anyway?
They think that if they follow the prophet, they're saved some how,
like saying - "I'm good, I'm fine now, I don't need to do anything else."
You can't live or be saved on borrowed light.
If you follow the prophet or the GA's of the church
expecting to be saved, you will be lost.
You can not follow someone into heaven.
Following the prophet can't save you.
Going to church won't save you.
Following the prophet, is not following the Lord.
A prophet is still a man, and not the Lord.
All our focus, faith, trust and hope should be in Jesus Christ - our Savior and NOT in ANY MAN.
Why don't they say - I will follow the lord, and have Him as my guide,
have "His spirit to be with me".
To be saved, there is no middle man, except Christ.
We need to have a relationship with the Lord, not the prophet.
Jesus Christ is the ONLY one we need to follow and look to.
"I am the way, the truth, and the life:
no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."
John 14:6
We need to put our faith in Christ
It's CHRIST'S gospel and we need to look to him
and have his spirit with us to guide and direct us.
He's the one that died for us and the ONLY one that can save us.
"And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ,
we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ,
and we write according to our prophecies,
that our children may know to what source
they may look for a remission of their sins."
2 Nephi 25:26
"Wherefore, ye must press forward
with a steadfastness in Christ,
having a perfect brightness of hope,
and a love of God and of all men.
Wherefore, if ye shall press forward,
feasting upon the word of Christ,
and endure to the end, behold,
thus saith the Father:
Ye shall have eternal life."
2 Nephi 31:20
"Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ.
Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do."
2 Nephi 32
"And thus will the Father bear record of me, and the Holy Ghost will bear record unto him of the Father and me;
for the Father, and I, and the Holy Ghost are one."
3 Nephi 11:36
----------------------------------------------------
Be Wary of Man and His Words - Val Brinkerhoff
The Lord’s inspired servants do their best repeat God’s words as accurately as possible. They also point to Him
as the source of all light and truth. Imperfect and corrupt men, seeking the praise of the world and filthy lucre,
raise themselves up as a light in replacement of God. This paper addresses the false doctrine that men should be
lifted up as our source of light. Hereafter this paper is divided into three parts;
I. Statements by early LDS church leaders cautioning against putting trust in man;
II. Scriptures that support trusting God only; and
III. The misuse of God’s statement “Whether it be by mine own voice, or by the voice of my servants it is the same.”
I. Early Teachings in the LDS Church about Trusting Men
Consistent with the Lord’s words and scripture, early LDS church leaders taught members to avoid trusting in
leaders, and said that to do so was to trust in “the arm of the flesh.” Apostle George Q. Cannon stated, “Do not,
brethren, put your trust in man though he be a Bishop, an apostle or a president; if you do, they will fail you at
some time or place; they will do wrong or seem to, and your support will be gone; but if we lean on God, He
will never fail us. When men and women depend upon God alone and trust in him alone, their faith will not be
shaken if the highest in the Church should step aside” (George Q. Cannon, DW 43:322 [Mar 7, 1891]).
Apostle Charles Penrose, counselor to Pres. Brigham Young stated, “Our testimony does not depend upon
Joseph Smith; it does not depend upon Brigham Young; it does not depend upon John Taylor, or upon the
council of the Twelve Apostles, which is now the presiding quorum in the Church. I pin my faith to no man’s
sleeve; I am a believer in the Scripture which says, ‘Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his
arm’” (Charles Penrose, August 17, 1879, Journal of Discourses 20:295).
According to the Lord, those that heed every word of church leaders—whether they are from the Holy Ghost or
not—are described in D&C 76 as telestial spirits. Those of a celestial nature heed the word of God. “And the
glory of the telestial is one...For these are they who are of Paul, and of Apollos, and of Cephas. These are they
who say they are some of one and some of another—some of Christ and some of John, and some of Moses, and
some of Elias, and some of Esaias, and some of Isaiah, and some of Enoch; But received not the gospel, neither
the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant. Last of all, these all are they who
will not be gathered with the saints, to be caught up unto the church of the Firstborn, and received into the cloud.
These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes
a lie. These are they who suffer the wrath of God on earth. These are they who suffer the vengeance of eternal
fire. These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God, until the fulness of times,
when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work” (D&C 76:98-
106).
Those who follow men rather than God’s Spirit are accounted no better than liars, adulterers, and
whoremongers. Following our Lord’s word leads to the Tree of Life - eternal life. If a person focuses on a man
instead of searching for and receiving God's word in revelation and scripture, they will be damned to the telestial
kingdom.
Brigham Young stated, “Now those men, or those women, who know no more about the power of God, and the
influences of the Holy Spirit, than to be led entirely by another person, suspending their own understanding, and
pinning their faith upon another’s sleeve, will never be capable of entering into the celestial glory, to be crowned
as they anticipate; they will never be capable of becoming Gods...They never can become Gods, nor be crowned
as rulers with glory, immortality, and eternal lives. They never can hold scepters of glory, majesty, and power in
the celestial kingdom. Who will? Those who are valiant and inspired with the true independence of heaven, who
will go forth boldly in the service of their God, leaving others to do as they please, determined to do right,
though all mankind besides should take the opposite course” (Brigham Young, JD 1:312).
Pres. Young added, “What a pity it would be, if we were led by one man to utter destruction! Are you afraid of
this? I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for
themselves of God whether they are led by him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security,
trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart
the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken the influence they could give to their leaders, did they know
for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know,
themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not. This has been my exhortation
continually” (Brigham Young, JD 9:150).
We are charged by God to validate the truthfulness of what church leaders say. The Holy Ghost is the only
source of truth that will never lead us astray. So said Brigham Young. “The First Presidency have of right a
great influence over this people; and if we should get out of the way and lead this people to destruction, what a
pity it would be! How can you know whether we lead you correctly or not? Can you know by any other power
than that of the Holy Ghost? I have uniformly exhorted the people to obtain this living witness, each for
themselves; then no man on earth can lead them astray” (Brigham Young, JD 6:100).
Nephi stated, “…whoso would hearken unto the word of God, and would hold fast unto it, they would never
perish; neither could the temptations and the fiery darts of the adversary overpower them unto blindness, to lead
them away to destruction” (1 Nephi 15:24).
Sadly, the narrative embraced by too many today is that our leaders cannot lead us astray. This is well meaning
but incorrect teaching. We hear, “Keep your eyes riveted on the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve
Apostles. We will not lead you astray. We cannot” (M. Russell Ballard, October 2014 General Conference). We
are told to “stay in the boat” when there is troubled waters about us, that boat which is directed by men. Joseph
Smith’s last three dreams had him get out of a sinking boat two times and out of a burning barn a third. “Let me
remind you to stay in the course chartered by the Church. It is the Lord’s Church, and he will not permit it to be
led astray. If we take the counsel that comes from the prophets and seers, we will pursue the course that is
pleasing to the Lord” (Bruce R. McConkie, “Our Relationship With the Lord,” BYU Devotional March 2,
1982). “Keep your eye on the Prophet, for the Lord will never permit his Prophet to lead this Church astray”
(Ezra Taft Benson, Conference Report, October 1966, 123)
The Prophets of scripture and Joseph Smith tell us the opposite. “We have heard men who hold the priesthood
remark that they would do anything they were told to do by those who preside over them (even) if they knew it
was wrong; but such obedience as this is worse than folly to us; it is slavery in the extreme; and the man who
would thus willingly degrade himself, should not claim a rank among intelligent beings, until he turns from his
folly. A man of God would despise the idea. Others, in the extreme exercise of their almighty authority have
taught that such obedience was necessary, and that no matter what the saints were told to do by their presidents,
they should do it without any questions. When the Elders of Israel will so far indulge in these extreme notions of
obedience as to teach them to the people, it is generally because they have it in their hearts to do wrong
themselves” (Joseph Smith, Millennial Star, 14:38, pp.593-595).
Men are not saved through their allegiance to imperfect, fallen man, but through their diligent seeking of God
and following the Holy Ghost that results from it. True messengers sent of God and inspired servants of God on
Earth will always act in ways increasing our to God, not in ways that inflate their limited role as a middleman in
substitution of Christ and His Spirit as our mediator. True messengers do not seek for men to worship them, but
for men to worship God. They do not consider themselves more holy than those they are called to serve and do
not ask for special treatment – the praise of men and the filthy lucre often resulting from it. We read in the Book
of Mormon “...for thus saith the Lord; Ye shall not esteem one flesh above another, or one man shall not think
himself above another” (Mosiah 23:7).
II. Trust in God Scriptures
Hereafter is a small collection of scriptures that support looking to God, not man, for light. There are many
more. We begin with the exact, chiastic center scripture of the Bible, Psalm 118:8. It states:
“It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man” (Psalm 118:8).
“O LORD, I have trusted in thee, and I will trust in thee forever. I will not put my trust in the arm of flesh; for I
know that cursed is he that putteth his trust in the arm of flesh. Yea, cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or
maketh flesh his arm” (2 Nephi 4:34).
“Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men,
save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost” (2 Nephi 28:31).
“Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, that maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart
departeth from the Lord” (Jeremiah 17:5).
“For My people have committed two evils: They have forsaken Me, The fountain of living waters, To hew for
themselves cisterns, Broken cisterns That can hold no water” (Jeremiah 2:13).
“Forasmuch as this people refuseth the waters of Shiloah that go softly, and rejoice in Rezin and Remaliah's son;
Now therefore, behold, the Lord bringeth up upon them the waters of the river, strong and many, even the king
of Assyria, and all his glory: and he shall come” (Isaiah 8:6-7).
“For behold, you should not have feared man more than God. Although men set at naught the counsels of God,
and despise his words – Ye you should have been faithful; and he would have extended his arm and supported
you against all the fiery darts of the adversary; and he would have been with you in every time of trouble”
(D&C 3:7-8).
“For the leaders of the people cause them to err; and they that are led of them are destroyed” (2 Nephi 19:16).
“Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding” (Proverbs 3:5).
And now I command you, my servant Joseph, to repent and walk more uprightly before me, and to yield to the
persuasions of men no more” (D&C 5:21).
“Be strong and courageous, be not afraid nor dismayed for the king of Assyria, nor for all the multitude that is
with him: for there be more with us than with him: With him is an arm of flesh; but with us is the LORD our
God to help us, and to fight our battles” (2 Chronicles 32:7-8).
“Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God. They are
brought down and fallen: but we are risen, and stand upright. Save, LORD: let the king hear us when we call”
(Psalm 20:7).
“For I will trust not in my bow, neither shall my sword save me. But thou hast saved us from our enemies, and
hast put them to shame that hated us” (Psalm 44:6-7).
“It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in princes” (Psalm 118:9; 146:3).
“Woe to the rebellious children, saith the LORD, that take counsel, but not of me; and that cover with a
covering, but not of my Spirit, that they may add sin to sin: That walk to go down into Egypt, and have not
asked at my mouth; to strengthen themselves in the strength of Pharaoh, and to trust in the shadow of Egypt”
(Isaiah 30:1-2; Romans 8:1).
“Their land is full of idols; they worship the work of their own hands” (Isaiah 2:8).
III. It is the Same: God’s Words versus Man’s Words
Good men and inspired servants sent of the Lord do their best to quote God’s words as accurately as possible,
not adding to or taking away anything from them. These servants point to God as our source light and truth, not
themselves. Contrast this imperfect and corrupt men who seek the praise of the world and financial support from
others. God defines this as “priestcraft” (2 Ne. 26:29). Such live on the accolades of men and filthy lucre. They
raise themselves up as a light in replacement of God. Our Savior stated that He is the light we are look to, and
the things He does as our example (3 Ne. 18:24).
Thus Saith the Lord God’s words are powerful and important, much more so than those of any man. God
often introduces His word by using some variation of the phrase “Thus saith the Lord.” They alert us that we
should pay close attention to what follows. The Doctrine and Covenants has many such phrases. They include,
“Hearken unto me, saith the Lord your God" (Section 51); “Behold, I am God; give heed unto my word”
(Section 13); “Listen to the voice of Jesus Christ, your redeemer, the Great I AM” (section 29); "Listen to
the voice of the Lord your God, Even Alpha and Omega" (section 35), and so on.
Some things we read are not God’s words. An example of a so-called "revelation" from God in the Doctrine and
Covenants that did not come from Him is portions of Section 20. Elder James. E. Talmage read its first few
verses, believing that they were the words of Christ, or at least those given to Joseph Smith by Him. He believed
they were also tied to the Lord’s birth date. With this assumption, Elder Talmage added his own statements
about this probability in His book Jesus the Christ, stating that April 6th was most likely the Lord’s birthday.
This book statement is believed to have started our April 6th tradition for Christ’s birthday. In the Joseph Smith
Paper’s project, we have since learned that the words in the first few verses of D&C 20 are not those of the
Lord, nor those of a sent angel from His throne, nor those of the Prophet Joseph Smith. Instead, they are added
words of John Whitmer, Joseph Smith’s scribe at the time, used to introduce the reader to the rest of the section.
Elder Talmage’s mistaken belief that they were the Lord’s words has led to a now fully entrenched LDS
“tradition” that they also reveal our Lord’s birthdate (see the paper, “The LDS April 6th Tradition”).
God’s Words versus Man’s Words The introductory paragraph to D&C 20 (above it) states that it is a
“revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet,” yet this introduction, along with the first few verses of
Section 20 were written by a committee that compiled that particular edition of the scriptures in 1981. Nowhere
in this section does our Lord Jesus Christ identify these words as coming from Him.
We now know, thanks largely to the Joseph Smith Papers project, that section 20 is a hodgepodge of statements
thrown together by as many as six different early Church leaders, who did so in a hurry to get it ready for
publication. Joseph Smith the Prophet may have been among them, but the original document also shows other
“voices” that are not our Lord’s. This is especially true of the first few verses of D&C 20, which we now know
were written by John Whtimer, Joseph Smith’s scribe at the time. Additional verses in Section 20 may be
written by Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, or Sidney Rigdon, among others.
More importantly, many today assume these “servants” and others (like our General Authorities) are the
“servants” God referred to in verse 38 of Section 1 of the D&C, where the Lord states, “Whether it be by mine
own voice, or by the voice of my servants it is the same.” Many times they are not the same. We should
understand the context of this statement by God, and what He means by “his servants.” The voices in writing in
D&C 20, and many others today are not "the same voice” as God's, nor those of His chosen “angels” – those
sent from His throne who are His “servants” sent to quote Him directly, doing so accurately - word for word.
Thus, we should also be careful in how we use the word “servant” today and how we interpret D&C 1:38. We
should pay close attention to those servants sent of God who quote God’s words accurately. Statements by men
are much less important, not matter how well-meaning or eloquent they might be.
Does this mean that section 20 should be ignored? No. It contains many patterns for governing the operations of
the church. But some of those patterns were created by men (some believe they suggest a Campbellite
influence), and not necessarily the pattern laid out by God Himself for the Church.
Take for example, section 27, a revelation given in the voice of one of God's servants – this time an angel. One
day Joseph set out to buy some wine for the sacrament. On the way he was stopped by an angel, who warned
him he was about to purchase wine from his enemies, and that he might want to think twice about doing so in
case it was poisoned. The angel didn’t warn Joseph in his own words, adding His own commentary, but instead
saying, “Listen to the voice of Jesus Christ, your Lord, your God, and your redeemer, whose word is quick and
powerful.” From there the angel quoted God directly, delivering the message he was sent to deliver, accurately
and without embellishment. He recited it word for word just as if it had come from the mouth of God Himself.
He then departed. That is what it really means in D&C 1:38 when God said, “Whether it be by mine own voice,
or by the voice of my servants it is the same.”
In the October General Conferences of 2010 and 2014 a leader stood and quoted this verse of scripture, implying
that what followed would be the same as the Lord’s own words. It is was the Lord’s words, quoted exactly as He
gave them, then “they are the same.” Certainly there were edifying words spoken by these leaders, but this verse
in D&C 1 doesn’t necessarily mean the words of leaders past, present, or future are the words of Christ, unless
they are exactly His, or if they speaking under the power of the Holy Ghost (who is one with God and bears of
the truth of all things). Only then is one speaking with “the tongue of angels.”
We often place too much trust in “the arm of flesh.” This is one of the biggest problems in our current culture.
Where possible, we should verify all things said or written as God’s word by way of the Spirit. We read in 3
Nephi 19:8 about the Twelve Apostles at Bountiful and how they taught most effectively. “And when they had
ministered those same words which Jesus had spoken – nothing varying from the words which Jesus had
spoken – behold, they knelt again and prayed to the Father in the name of Jesus.” Here His servants spoke the
same words as Jesus, the people knowing that they were His. Then is the meaning of D&C 1:38 fulfilled,
“Whether it be by mine own voice, or by the voice of my servants it is the same.” Note verses 36 through 38 of
D&C 1 hereafter. The whole section is the Lord’s introduction to His own words that are to go forth to the world. He states:
37 Search these commandments, for they are true and faithful, and the prophecies and promises which are in
them shall all be fulfilled.
38 What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the
earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the
voice of my servants, it is the same.
39 For behold, and lo, the Lord is God, and the Spirit beareth record, and the record is true, and the truth
abideth forever and ever. Amen.
Note the Lord is counseling us to search these commandments - the ones in the revelations of this particular
book – that ARE HIS! No reference is made in this section to anything a Church leader might one day say in
the future. This is important in understanding the next verse, "What I the Lord have spoken I have spoken, and I
excuse not myself." They are His words, not mans. Our Lord is God. He makes no apologies for the precise
predictions He has made. Note that God is speaking in the past tense. What He has spoken He has spoken. This
is not a reference about what a future leader of the Church may say. He's referencing His own words here, and
His words alone. "And though the heavens and the earth may pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall
all be fulfilled." If our powerful God said it, then we can be sure it will happen.
The key question is, "what is the same" as His words, what is the same as His voice? He is talking about His
word as revealed in this book – the Doctrine and Covenants where His prophecies, His predictions, and the
judgments He assures us will come to pass are found. The servants He is referring to are those men to whom
these particular revelations in the D&C were given to and recorded by. This list includes Joseph and Hyrum
Smith, Oliver Cowdery, Sidney Rigdon, John, David, and Peter Whitmer, etc. We should not miss the clear
reference in them in verse 6 - to "my servants" - the very ones instructed by Him to publish these words to the world.
Thus, in Section 1 of the D&C, His introduction to His words that follow, God is telling His people that all the
prophecies foretold in the sections that follow this introduction will come to pass. Why - because He spoke it,
"and I excuse not myself.” His words are quick and powerful and will be fulfilled! This is the context of the
Lord’s words, “Whether it be by mine own voice, or by the voice of my servants it is the same.” He is not saying
that future leaders words are or will be His. He is saying that the words He gave past prophets in the Bible, Book
of Mormon, and those given Joseph Smith and others in the D&C - relative to coming judgments in our day -
will be fulfilled, but He gave them to these men. They are His words, given in revelation! They are not prepared
talks by men, not matter how good and well-intended they may be. If the talks are given under the power of the
Holy Ghost, then they are comparable to His words, but not necessarily the same.
Last Thoughts on Section 27 In the original Book of Commandments, Section 27 was 13 verses shorter
than it is today, ending in verse 5, with the statement, “for the hour cometh that I will drink of the fruit of the
vine with you, on the earth, and with all those whom my Father hath given me out of the world.” We learn in the
Joseph Smith Papers project that Oliver Cowdery added the extra 13 verses beyond verse 5 – those of God’s
angel, starting with a statement he says was made by Moroni. We see this in the later part of verse 5 when the
angel seems to suddenly shift gears, stating, "I will drink of the fruit of the vine with you on the earth, and with
Moroni...”
Nothing Oliver Cowdery added in section 27 has the same status as that of, “by my voice or the voice of my
servant.” The angel appearing to Joseph Smith spoke for God, providing nothing more or less than His words.
Note the Lord’s words regarding the words He gave His chosen servant Joseph Smith to give us. God states,
“Wherefore, meaning the church, thou shalt give heed unto all his words and commandments which he shall
give unto you as he receiveth them, walking in all holiness before me” (D&C 21:4). An important qualification
for a true messenger is that the word of God they carry be as brief as possible, that it originate from God, and
that it is accurate.
Idolatry It is important that we quote God and angels often and accurately. And it is important that we
quote God more often than men – the arm of flesh, in our talks to one another. We have replaced too many of
God’s words with those of men. Too many talks quote General Authorities over and over rather than the words
of God. Leaders often quote each other. Sometimes they quote themselves from past talks. God has instead
spoken to us! His words are powerful. We should reference His words more frequently, doing so accurately. A
good second choice is to quote those chosen messengers that quote Him word for word, those who are “sent
ones” from His presence and throne. When a servant, chosen and sent by God states, “thus saith the Lord,” we
should pay close attention to what follows, then confirm that they are indeed the Lord’s words. We should then
follow them. In this way we can avoid idolatry and deception.
Good grief I Am did you even read the post from Onsdag or did you just read the title and then start in with your robotic talking points about the arm of flesh and idol worship? if you bother to read the post you would know that Onsdag is just acting on the counsels given to the Saints by living Prophets and it has blessed his life and yielded many good fruits. Sometime I really wonder if living Prophets are like a dirty word and a curse to some of you guys who constantly rail against following their counsels and pleas to repent and come unto Christ. Your paradigm is messed up!
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Hie'ing to Kolob
- captain of 100
- Posts: 709
Re: What are you doing to follow the Prophet?
As has been stated... I do NOT follow the prophet. I recognize him as a man like me, asked to lead the Church. I folow Christ. He is my Savior and King.
My wife is teaching the "Follow the Prophet" lesson to Primary sharing time. Looking through the manual it is disturbing how we teach our children. Seriously, and this is no exaggeration, to follow unquestionably the Prophet. My wife, who is as traditional mormon as they come, told me "This feels wrong, Im not going to teach this like they want me to." It is kind of North Korea'ish. Following the Prophet(s) unquestioningly, led to MM Massacre, the two-headed serpeant of polygamy and racism, Brigham Young screwing up people with doctrines of Adam-God, Blood Atonement, on and on.
My sons are taught to honor the President of the Church, but that their faith and trust is in Christ.
My wife is teaching the "Follow the Prophet" lesson to Primary sharing time. Looking through the manual it is disturbing how we teach our children. Seriously, and this is no exaggeration, to follow unquestionably the Prophet. My wife, who is as traditional mormon as they come, told me "This feels wrong, Im not going to teach this like they want me to." It is kind of North Korea'ish. Following the Prophet(s) unquestioningly, led to MM Massacre, the two-headed serpeant of polygamy and racism, Brigham Young screwing up people with doctrines of Adam-God, Blood Atonement, on and on.
My sons are taught to honor the President of the Church, but that their faith and trust is in Christ.
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Craig Johnson
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 1991
- Location: Washington State.
Re: What are you doing to follow the Prophet?
Why would you be saying you've "heard too many" say that?
I try to follow the Prophet because he follows the Lord and is His mouthpiece.
I would follow you but that would be idolatry since you have no authority and it looks to me like you talk about following the Lord but don't.
You use man's interpretation of God's wisdom to teach your doctrine, and so it is easy for a person. led by the Spirit, to see you are just plain wrong.
If you actually followed the Lord you would have the Spirit guiding you and you would teach others to follow the Prophet because you would know they should.
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Hie'ing to Kolob
- captain of 100
- Posts: 709
Re: What are you doing to follow the Prophet?
In my lifetime the Presidents of the Church have been, to my knowledge, extraordinary men of faith who are examples we should look to. I've never had disgreements with a modern Prophet. Typically their messages are mainstream foundational Christian themed. I get uneasy when our prayers of gratitude for "Our beloved Prophet" are given with more zeal than expressions of gratitude we make for the gift of God's Son. Fast and Testimony meeting after conference was wall to wall testimonies about how spectacular the Prophet is. Im glad the Apostle Paul wasn't in attendance...
Again the Prophet of the Church deserves respect, honor, and support, but in no way do I need tonelavate him beyond a man - even a very good decent and righteous man.
Again the Prophet of the Church deserves respect, honor, and support, but in no way do I need tonelavate him beyond a man - even a very good decent and righteous man.
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drtanner
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 1850
Re: What are you doing to follow the Prophet?
When someone says "follow the prophet" I've never once thought "follow a man" I've always thought consciously about what the Lord's message through him for me personally may be. Can the Lord also speak to us individually? Absolutely. Does following a prophet take away from the desire to go to Christ directly? No that is what the prophets encourage us to do. Do the prophets encourage a one on one relationship with Christ. Absolutely. So why follow a prophet? Here are a few good reasons and illustrations:
D&C 1:4 And the voice of warning shall be unto all people, by the mouths of my disciples, whom I have chosen in these last days.
38 What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.
1 Nephi 22:2 And I, Nephi, said unto them: Behold they were manifest unto the prophet by the voice of the Spirit; for by the Spirit are all things made known unto the prophets, which shall come upon the children of men according to the flesh.
D&C 68:3 And this is the ensample unto them, that they shall speak as they are moved upon by the Holy Ghost.
4 And whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost shall be scripture, shall be the will of the Lord, shall be the mind of the Lord, shall be the word of the Lord, shall be the voice of the Lord, and the power of God unto salvation.
5 Behold, this is the promise of the Lord unto you, O ye my servants.
Can you imagine what would have happened to the city of Enoch if they hadn't listened or believed in Enoch's words? Point being for many people it starts with Prophets and ends with Christ.Moses 6:26 And it came to pass that Enoch journeyed in the land, among the people; and as he journeyed, the Spirit of God descended out of heaven, and abode upon him.
27 And he heard a voice from heaven, saying: Enoch, my son, prophesy unto this people, and say unto them—Repent, for thus saith the Lord: I am angry with this people, and my fierce anger is kindled against them; for their hearts have waxed hard, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes cannot see afar off;
28 And for these many generations, ever since the day that I created them, have they gone astray, and have denied me, and have sought their own counsels in the dark; and in their own abominations have they devised murder, and have not kept the commandments, which I gave unto their father, Adam.
29 Wherefore, they have foresworn themselves, and, by their oaths, they have brought upon themselves death; and a hell I have prepared for them, if they repent not;
30 And this is a decree, which I have sent forth in the beginning of the world, from my own mouth, from the foundation thereof, and by the mouths of my servants, thy fathers, have I decreed it, even as it shall be sent forth in the world, unto the ends thereof.
31 And when Enoch had heard these words, he bowed himself to the earth, before the Lord, and spake before the Lord, saying: Why is it that I have found favor in thy sight, and am but a lad, and all the people hate me; for I am slow of speech; wherefore am I thy servant?
32 And the Lord said unto Enoch: Go forth and do as I have commanded thee, and no man shall pierce thee. Open thy mouth, and it shall be filled, and I will give thee utterance, for all flesh is in my hands, and I will do as seemeth me good.
33 Say unto this people: Choose ye this day, to serve the Lord God who made you.
34 Behold my Spirit is upon you, wherefore all thy words will I justify; and the mountains shall flee before you, and the rivers shall turn from their course; and thou shalt abide in me, and I in you; therefore walk with me.
35 And the Lord spake unto Enoch, and said unto him: Anoint thine eyes with clay, and wash them, and thou shalt see. And he did so.
36 And he beheld the spirits that God had created; and he beheld also things which were not visible to the natural eye; and from thenceforth came the saying abroad in the land: A seer hath the Lord raised up unto his people.
37 And it came to pass that Enoch went forth in the land, among the people, standing upon the hills and the high places, and cried with a loud voice, testifying against their works; and all men were offended because of him.
38 And they came forth to hear him, upon the high places, saying unto the tent-keepers: Tarry ye here and keep the tents, while we go yonder to behold the seer, for he prophesieth, and there is a strange thing in the land; a wild man hath come among us.
Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Deuteronomy 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.
20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
Matthew 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
D&C 132:7 And verily I say unto you, that the conditions of this law are these: All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, of him who is anointed, both as well for time and for all eternity, and that too most holy, by revelation and commandment through the medium of mine anointed, whom I have appointed on the earth to hold this power (and I have appointed unto my servant Joseph to hold this power in the last days, and there is never but one on the earth at a time on whom this power and the keys of this priesthood are conferred), are of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead.
D&C 107:65 Wherefore, it must needs be that one be appointed of the High Priesthood to preside over the priesthood, and he shall be called President of the High Priesthood of the Church;
66 Or, in other words, the Presiding High Priest over the High Priesthood of the Church.
67 From the same comes the administering of ordinances and blessings upon the church, by the laying on of the hands.
91 And again, the duty of the President of the office of the High Priesthood is to preside over the whole church, and to be like unto Moses—
92 Behold, here is wisdom; yea, to be a seer, a revelator, a translator, and a prophet, having all the gifts of God which he bestows upon the head of the church.
When Christ came to the Americas he called prophets and apostles even though everyone there had the greatest blessings available to members of his church, that of being comforted and blessed by Christ personally. So why did he call prophets?D&C 43:1 O hearken, ye elders of my church, and give ear to the words which I shall speak unto you.
2 For behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, that ye have received a commandment for a law unto my church, through him whom I have appointed unto you to receive commandments and revelations from my hand.
3 And this ye shall know assuredly—that there is none other appointed unto you to receive commandments and revelations until he be taken, if he abide in me.
4 But verily, verily, I say unto you, that none else shall be appointed unto this gift except it be through him; for if it be taken from him he shall not have power except to appoint another in his stead.
5 And this shall be a law unto you, that ye receive not the teachings of any that shall come before you as revelations or commandments;
6 And this I give unto you that you may not be deceived, that you may know they are not of me.
7 For verily I say unto you, that he that is ordained of me shall come in at the gate and be ordained as I have told you before, to teach those revelations which you have received and shall receive through him whom I have appointed.
21 And the Lord said unto him: I give unto you power that ye shall baptize this people when I am again ascended into heaven.
22 And again the Lord called others, and said unto them likewise; and he gave unto them power to baptize. And he said unto them: On this wise shall ye baptize; and there shall be no disputations among you.
23 Verily I say unto you, that whoso repenteth of his sins through your words, and desireth to be baptized in my name, on this wise shall ye baptize them—Behold, ye shall go down and stand in the water, and in my name shall ye baptize them.
3 Nephi 12:1 And it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words unto Nephi, and to those who had been called, (now the number of them who had been called, and received power and authority to baptize, was twelve) and behold, he stretched forth his hand unto the multitude, and cried unto them, saying: Blessed are ye if ye shall give heed unto the words of these twelve whom I have chosen from among you to minister unto you, and to be your servants; and unto them I have given power that they may baptize you with water; and after that ye are baptized with water, behold, I will baptize you with fire and with the Holy Ghost; therefore blessed are ye if ye shall believe in me and be baptized, after that ye have seen me and know that I am.
2 And again, more blessed are they who shall believe in your words because that ye shall testify that ye have seen me, and that ye know that I am. Yea, blessed are they who shall believe in your words, and come down into the depths of humility and be baptized, for they shall be visited with fire and with the Holy Ghost, and shall receive a remission of their sins.
