LDS Freedom Forum

Jesus Christ is the Son of Man plainly manifest here:

Matthew 16:13
13 ¶ When Jesus came into the coasts of Cæsarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

The Son of Man, Jesus Christ, is not the Holy Ghost

John 14:16–27
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me.

25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
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John The Revelator is the Davidic Servant??

From this source: http://ldssoul.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=86&t=241

Identifying the Davidic Servant

MarkMyWords

Quote

Post#1 » Sun Aug 30, 2015 10:17 am
In his book, "Seven Heavenly Witnesses", Val Brinkerhoff repeatedly suggests that John the Beloved (John the Revelator) is the latter-day Davidic Servant. Val Brinkerhoff and Joseph Smith provide lots of convincing evidence that it will be so. Absent better evidence, I choose to believe that Joseph Smith and Val Brinkerhoff are right -- John the Revelator will end up being the long sought-after Davidic Servant in our time.

In his book, "Seven Heavenly Witnesses", Val Brinkerhoff repeatedly suggests that John the Revelator might in fact be the son of Mary Magdalene and Jesus Christ. So far, I have yet to see any convincing evidence for this claim. I look for it, but I never see it. Absent evidence, I personally believe that Val Brinkerhoff's suggestion is wrong and inaccurate. For me, so far, the claim that John the Beloved is the son of Jesus Christ and Mary Magdalene remains in the realm of wishful thinking. There is no proof.

In contrast, I have the writings of John Lennox in his book, "Gunning for God: Why the New Atheists Are Missing the Target" page 208.

First, let me introduce John Lennox. John Lennox is an Oxford Professor and Mathematician and Philosopher; and, John Lennox is one of the premier Christian Apologists of our age. John Lennox has debated the New Atheists in person. From everything that I have seen of John Lennox, he is a premier researcher, and he goes out of his way to get his facts straight. If John Lennox prints it, then I consider it accurate and true, because he always has evidence for what he writes.

On page 208 of "Gunning for God", John Lennox writes: "Jesus' mother's sister was called Salome, and [Salome] was the wife of Zebedee and the mother of James and John." Simple, and true. It fits precisely with what the LDS Bible Dictionary is telling us -- James and John are the sons of Zebedee, and Salome is Zebedee's wife. That's what the LDS Bible Dictionary says!

This would mean that James and John would call Mary the mother of Jesus, "Aunt Mary". This would also mean that Jesus Christ would call Salome the sister of Mary, "Aunt Salome". This would make Jesus Christ, James, and John first cousins. This also means that if Jesus Christ has a legal right to be the Davidic Servant through his mother Mary, then James and John have an equal legal right to be the Davidic Servant through their mother Salome.

Furthermore, if Zebedee is the heir to the Throne of Israel, the true heir to the House of Ephraim, then it's possible that James and John have more of the blood of Ephraim, the birthright son, within their bones than Jesus Christ does.

So, I believe that we have accurately identified who the latter-day Davidic Servant will be -- he will be John the Revelator, a modern-day indestructible Enoch, a legitimate heir to the throne of David, and possibly a legitimate heir to the throne of Ephraim as well through Zebedee. I find it interesting that John the Revelator was there passing the birthright of Ephraim, the Priesthood of God, to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery when the Melchizedek Priesthood was restored to the earth. I also find it significant that John the Revelator carried within him the Birthright of Ephraim, the Melchizedek Priesthood, for nearly two thousand years before passing it on to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery. Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery were also first cousins. It has also been suggested that Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery, and Hyrum Smith were also legitimate heirs to the Throne of David and legitimate heirs to the House of Ephraim.

Therefore, I believe that I have accurately identified the parentage of John the Revelator. His mother Salome is the sister of Mary, who was the mother of Jesus. His father is Zebedee. I'm now curious to know the parentage of Zebedee. It wouldn't surprise me to discover one day that Zebedee was the legitimate heir to the House of Ephraim and the Throne of Israel.

According to the LDS Bible Dictionary, Zebedee was a fisherman, like his sons James and John. Zebedee was not a carpenter, and neither were James and John. Back in those days, the sons tended to go into the family business.

The name Zebedee means "endowment of the Lord", again suggesting a legal right to the Mechizedek Priesthood.

The LDS Bible Dictionary says that Salome is the wife of Zebedee, thus making her the mother of James and John.

The LDS Bible Dictionary supports John Lennox's claim that Zebedee and Salome were the parents of James and John. I personally believe that the LDS Bible Dictionary and John Lennox are correct. Absent better evidence, I also choose to believe John Lennox's statement that Salome is the sister of Mary, who was the mother of Jesus. All of this would make John the Revelator Jesus Christ's favorite little cousin, or favorite younger cousin. It would also make John the Revelator a legitimate heir to the throne of David.

If we can ascertain Zebedee's parentage, it might end up being the fact that Zebedee and John the Revelator are the legitimate heirs to the Throne of Israel, the House of Ephraim.

http://ldssoul.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=86&t=241

I gotta say, my friend, that, again, it really seems like you aren't reading through these posts at all. I did in fact concede that Jesus is the Son of Man as there are scriptures that indicate such. I'm saying there is another layer to the title - else why use it at all unless there is some additional meaning to be derived - even a light study of "son of man" will suggest there has been a mystery to this title still. And, there's nothing in your post that contradicts what I'm saying, though it seems that's what your aim here is. Hence...are you reading these?

I'm illustrating how the title absolutely applies to Jesus and Jesus' heir. Here's another layer that may help. I'll (edit: *try* to) keep this short just in case you're really not reading through all the posts before responding.

righteousrepublic wrote: ↑June 18th, 2019, 5:04 pm Jesus Christ is the Son of Man plainly manifest here:

Matthew 16:13
13 ¶ When Jesus came into the coasts of Cæsarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

Isaiah is all about duality - duality of prophecy, and the duality of the two participants in the Davidic Covenant. Perhaps you should start that deep dive into Isaiah. Jesus did command it after all.

From our very own website churchofjesuschrist.org

Son of Man
A title of our Lord, found in the Gospels about 80 times, used by Him in speaking of Himself but never used by anyone else in speaking of Him, though we see from Acts 7:56 that Christians did apply it to Him soon after His Ascension. In the Old Testament the expression “son of man” is frequently used to denote simply “a man” (Num. 23:19; Job 25:6; Ps. 8:4; 80:17). The expression is found 90 times in the book of Ezekiel, where the Lord uses the term for the prophet.

The main ideas that probably underlie the title as applied to our Lord are (1) lowliness, humility, and suffering

Ah ... that last line will fit in nicely as you study Isaiah.

Here are some modern scriptures that could have a layered meaning:

D&C 45:39 And it shall come to pass that he that feareth me shall be looking forth for the great day of the Lord to come, even for the signs of the coming of the Son of Man.


With the many evidences listed here already, the one coming in the clouds is not the Lord but His servant - I concede that it is unsettling to unseat such a vastly common belief. However, this layered understanding obviously links Jesus intimately to both meanings of "Son of Man" This is Jesus' son. Why even use the title at all unless there is a purpose? Was He pointing out his lowliness, humility, and suffering when He uses the title in Matthew 24 and repeated here? Clearly not as the Son of Man is coming in the clouds with glory and the armies of heaven!

The title "Son of Man" encompasses the duality of nature of the Davidic Covenant - the Greater participant, Jesus Christ, descends below all to ascend above all. The lesser participant, the Davidic Servant, also intercedes on behalf of his people, but to a lesser degree. Still, he suffers for his people - not descending below all - but not ascending above all either. Both the greater God's and lesser God's individual, respective descents and ascents match. This is a great theme throughout Isaiah underscored beautifully by Avraham Gileadi - but Avraham Gileadi does not give me authority to speak on these things, but you can see for yourself his findings here - isaiahexplained.com

Here's a good one:

D&C 49:6 And they have done unto the Son of Man even as they listed; and he has taken his power on the right hand of his glory, and now reigneth in the heavens, and will reign till he descends on the earth to put all enemies under his feet, which time is nigh at hand—
22 And again, verily I say unto you, that the Son of Man cometh not in the form of a woman, neither of a man traveling on the earth.

Why would he point out "woman" if Son of Man is already defined as Jesus Christ only - unless it isn't. Consider in recent days, folks have chimed in here and have opined the Holy Ghost is a woman .. or that he's all of us as we receive that power unto ourselves...etc.

The Alpha and Omega - one God. One who is just becoming a God, and one who is becoming a Father, thus the Father and the Son. Jesus Christ. But Jesus doesn't fulfill the lesser role of the lesser Priesthood of Judgement and Destruction. Why would He? He is the one to whom the office of High Priest of the Melchizedek Priesthood points.

The law was given under Aaron for the purpose of pouring out Judments and destructions. ~Joseph Smith Diary, by Willard Richards, August 27, 1843 Temple Grove
https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/words-jose ... /27-august

D&C 49:6 is referring to the lesser God of Israel - the Destroyer. Notice the language and the one who reigns is a mystery solved right here in this thread. Who has been advocating for Israel since Abraham? Who has been revealing to them Jehovah's word? Who has been single-handedly destroying Israel's enemies? Who slew 185,000 Assyrians in one night? - And why single handedly? "I have trodden the winepress alone" is a claim that only this angel can make.

I like this one:

D&C 58:65 And behold the Son of Man cometh. Amen.

You may scoff (scoffing is bad by the way) at this one, but consider this question: Why not say "Jesus Christ cometh?" And coming from someone who grew up with a wonderful English teacher as a mother, wouldn't the most intelligent of us all say "Behold, Jesus Christ returneth." This is a coming, and not a second coming as is hiding in plain sight in Matthew 24.

Moses 6:57 Wherefore teach it unto your children, that all men, everywhere, must repent, or they can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God, for no unclean thing can dwell there, or dwell in his presence; for, in the language of Adam, Man of Holiness is his name, and the name of his Only Begotten is the Son of Man, even Jesus Christ, a righteous Judge, who shall come in the meridian of time.

This is a fantastic scripture that seems to settle the case once and for all! Jesus Christ is the Son of Man. Yes! However, as I've stated elsewhere: It's not A or B it's A + B. Consider: Once Jesus ascends and receives all the father hath, does He not become a Man of Holiness right then and there? And how can Jesus move into this new role, presiding over eternal rounds, if he has not designated His own firstborn by the beginning of those rounds? And what is the purpose of those rounds if not to produce new firstborn? New Sons of Man. A new man of holiness is secured first .. and then a new son of man is designated. See?

The end of this world is the beginning of the next. This is how those who rejected Jesus were cast out. If blasphemy against Jesus is forgiven ... why wasn't it then? It wasn't forgiven then because Jesus was a Holy Ghost first, and when He ascended from being a man to becoming a God (son of man) then there was a choice given to accept or reject. Those who rejected crucified Jesus' Lord to open shame and were cast out...and so on and so forth worlds without end. Jesus has been at the last step of "Son of Man" and the Holy Ghost at the first step.

Perhaps a good starting point is to study Yom Kippur - Leviticus 16 - with a prayer. How will this unfulfilled holy day be fulfilled in the last days? Jesus is not the High Priest of Israel of the Lesser Priesthood. He is the sacrifice. Who is the High Priest of Israel of the Lesser Priesthood of Aaron / Levi? To whom does this lesser role point? The moon - the lesser light that rules the night - points to this same person. The Israel holy days are all based off both the sun and the moon. The spring festivals point to Jesus. The fall to ... ? The Davidic Servant. The Davidic Covenant links these two Gods through the royal lineage of Jesse. Who advocates for Israel, with the blood of the sacrifice upon his hands? Might it be the one who Jesus says has the power of sanctification? How did he gain this power? Might it be purchased by Jesus and given freely to His Holy Spirit?

The moon, not the sun, wears red.

Alaris wrote: ↑June 18th, 2019, 5:53 pmthere's nothing in your post that contradicts what I'm saying

Only that the Davidic Servant is John the Beloved/Revelator, and the Holy Ghost is not. This ought to stir up some conversation, right? Me, I don't care to argue what I already know. The Holy Ghost is not the Davidic Servant, and now I have provided some food for thought for others to consider that could potentially counter the belief that it is the Holy Ghost, including evidences to that end.
Did you read my last post?


From: http://ldssoul.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=86&t=241

Obviously, thanks to Val Brinkerhoff and Joseph Smith, I have become convinced that John the Revelator (John the Beloved) is going to end up being our latter-day Davidic Servant and latter-day Messiah for the whole House of Israel. So, I will end up being somewhat disappointed if John proves not to be, after all.

So far, given the evidence that I have seen, I do believe that John the Revelator will end up being the Davidic Servant and Latter-day Messiah spoken of in the Bible and LDS Scriptures. At this point, it's up to God to prove me wrong.
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So there we have it, folks, another person convinced that it is not the Holy Ghost but is John the Beloved that is the end time Davidic Servant.

In weighing out evidences provided by this other person, Alaris claims it is the Holy Ghost, but what do you think? Me, I stand by my knowledge and this new evidence that it isn't the HG.

It would be nice and proper if Darwin Max Bagley were here to defend his position, but he isn't, so from my standpoint, if no one besides Alaris responds to this new evidence I will consider this a draw.

Here is the book by Val Brinkerhoff spoken of:



With the excerpt on Amazon:

Seven Heavenly Witnesses for the Coming of Christ (Brinkerhoff)

This is an unparalleled work. No other book written on the sacred topic of the Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ has ever included such keen insights and correlations between modern events of the heavenly signs of the times that were set from the "Foundation of the World."

The heavens provide light and truth. Man cannot change them. God's faithful witnesses in the sun, the moon, and the wandering stars were the "lights" He set in the heavens, they are His calendar and they have much to teach us. There special alignments - conjunctions of planets (increased light) and eclipses of the sun and the moon (diminished light) - marked by special "holy days" tied to our Savior's birth and death. They also mark His second coming and return. Rare blood-moon "tetrads" (four total lunar eclipses in row) have returned again today with ties to the covenant people. They fall on Passover and Tabernacles in 2014-15. What do they mean? How are they tied to our Lord's Atonement, calendar, and return?

Perhaps one of the unfortunate outcomes of a "correlated," filtered and unified gospel instruction program that has evolved over the last 100 years is a gradual departure from the expansive learning and thinking of the Prophet Joseph Smith and the other early Church founders with regard to the understanding they pursued in the way of Hebrew instruction. Joseph invited Joshua Seixas son of noted Rabbi Joseph Seixas to the school of the Prophets to instruct them on the finer points of Hebrew language, Holy days and Calendars. This is something that as modern Latter-day Saints most of us have never even considered a need to learn and yet it is central to understanding the "signs of the times."

Val Brinkerhoff has restored much of the learning and mysteries that were common knowledge to our Church founders.

Source: https://www.amazon.com/Heavenly-Witness ... way&sr=8-2

righteousrepublic wrote: ↑June 18th, 2019, 7:20 pm

Alaris wrote: ↑June 18th, 2019, 5:53 pmthere's nothing in your post that contradicts what I'm saying

Only that the Davidic Servant is John the Beloved/Revelator, and the Holy Ghost is not. This ought to stir up some conversation, right? Me, I don't care to argue what I already know. The Holy Ghost is not the Davidic Servant, and now I have provided some food for thought for others to consider that could potentially counter the belief that it is the Holy Ghost, including evidences to that end.
Did you read my last post?


From: http://ldssoul.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=86&t=241

Obviously, thanks to Val Brinkerhoff and Joseph Smith, I have become convinced that John the Revelator (John the Beloved) is going to end up being our latter-day Davidic Servant and latter-day Messiah for the whole House of Israel. So, I will end up being somewhat disappointed if John proves not to be, after all.

So far, given the evidence that I have seen, I do believe that John the Revelator will end up being the Davidic Servant and Latter-day Messiah spoken of in the Bible and LDS Scriptures. At this point, it's up to God to prove me wrong.
.................................................................................................................................................................
So there we have it, folks, another person convinced that it is not the Holy Ghost but is John the Beloved that is the end time Davidic Servant.

In weighing out evidences provided by this other person, Alaris claims it is the Holy Ghost, but what do you think? Me, I stand by my knowledge and this new evidence that it isn't the HG.

It would be nice and proper if Darwin Max Bagley were here to defend his position, but he isn't, so from my standpoint, if no one besides Alaris responds to this new evidence I will consider this a draw.

Here is the book by Val Brinkerhoff spoken of:



With the excerpt on Amazon:

Seven Heavenly Witnesses for the Coming of Christ (Brinkerhoff)

This is an unparalleled work. No other book written on the sacred topic of the Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ has ever included such keen insights and correlations between modern events of the heavenly signs of the times that were set from the "Foundation of the World."

The heavens provide light and truth. Man cannot change them. God's faithful witnesses in the sun, the moon, and the wandering stars were the "lights" He set in the heavens, they are His calendar and they have much to teach us. There special alignments - conjunctions of planets (increased light) and eclipses of the sun and the moon (diminished light) - marked by special "holy days" tied to our Savior's birth and death. They also mark His second coming and return. Rare blood-moon "tetrads" (four total lunar eclipses in row) have returned again today with ties to the covenant people. They fall on Passover and Tabernacles in 2014-15. What do they mean? How are they tied to our Lord's Atonement, calendar, and return?

Perhaps one of the unfortunate outcomes of a "correlated," filtered and unified gospel instruction program that has evolved over the last 100 years is a gradual departure from the expansive learning and thinking of the Prophet Joseph Smith and the other early Church founders with regard to the understanding they pursued in the way of Hebrew instruction. Joseph invited Joshua Seixas son of noted Rabbi Joseph Seixas to the school of the Prophets to instruct them on the finer points of Hebrew language, Holy days and Calendars. This is something that as modern Latter-day Saints most of us have never even considered a need to learn and yet it is central to understanding the "signs of the times."

Val Brinkerhoff has restored much of the learning and mysteries that were common knowledge to our Church founders.

Source: https://www.amazon.com/Heavenly-Witness ... way&sr=8-2

One vote here for the Davidic Servant is the Holy Ghost.

I liked the article you posted about John the Revelator. The author has obviously put some thought into it and had some interesting insights.

What I find interesting is that you are even conceding the existence of a Davidic/end times servant at all. It seems not too long ago you were arguing that such a figure doesn’t exist.

Perhaps, I’m misreading you, but your posting of an “alternative” to Alaris’ belief seems a little bit disingenuous...like you know you lost the debate about a Davidic Servant, but by golly, admitting that Alaris has been right all along would just be a step too far.

“Alright, alright, you win...but not really, because I have a better candidate!”

May I suggest you get down on your knees and ask the Lord humbly to help you understand? The guidance of the Spirit truly is the only way to distinguish between just a good argument and the actual truth. The difference between the two is often, if not always, imperceptible.

righteousrepublic wrote: ↑June 18th, 2019, 7:20 pm

Alaris wrote: ↑June 18th, 2019, 5:53 pmthere's nothing in your post that contradicts what I'm saying

Only that the Davidic Servant is John the Beloved/Revelator, and the Holy Ghost is not. This ought to stir up some conversation, right? Me, I don't care to argue what I already know. The Holy Ghost is not the Davidic Servant, and now I have provided some food for thought for others to consider that could potentially counter the belief that it is the Holy Ghost, including evidences to that end.
Did you read my last post?

Haha, touché! Yes I did read that but John being the Davidic Servant is easily dismantled, which I have done before several times on these forums. Even if it were John, how does that somehow make the Davidic Servant not the Holy Ghost?

Still, I must say, you seem so bent on just proving me wrong rather than learning what's right. I mean ... a statement like this:

righteousrepublic wrote: ↑June 18th, 2019, 7:20 pm It would be nice and proper if Darwin Max Bagley were here to defend his position, but he isn't, so from my standpoint, if no one besides Alaris responds to this new evidence I will consider this a draw.

Boy that seems like a game of I'm right and you're wrong and an unfair one at that. If anyone besides me doesn't respond you win? LOL

righteousrepublic wrote: ↑June 18th, 2019, 7:20 pm From: http://ldssoul.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=86&t=241

I read this post years ago, and it's an incredible post. However, by all the reasoning given in this post, the poster "markmywords" could also point that same evidence to John's brother James. I'll give you, well one, reason why James is the better fit.

Peter .. James .. and John who have the keys until Christ returns. James is always listed first before John. Heaven is extremely hierarchical and orderly. If there are seven patriarchs, then who would be next in authority? James is # 8. John is # 9. David is the 8th son of Jesse, and I've already shown how both the standard works and apocryhpa agree the Davidic Servant is the 8th angel.

righteousrepublic wrote: ↑June 18th, 2019, 7:20 pm Obviously, thanks to Val Brinkerhoff and Joseph Smith, I have become convinced that John the Revelator (John the Beloved) is going to end up being our latter-day Davidic Servant and latter-day Messiah for the whole House of Israel. So, I will end up being somewhat disappointed if John proves not to be, after all.

I don't think you will be disappointed. I believe John is one of the two witnesses after all. However, if John is the one ascending in Revelation, isn't he sort of witnessing of himself? "thou shalt prophesy again before all nations" the angel tells John just before segueing into Revelation 11 regarding the two witnesses. Could the two witnesses be the 8th and 9th authorities on Earth? Zechariah 4 seems to point in that direction as there are 7 candle sticks and two trees. 7, 8, 9. If only John just came out and said it. Oh wait, what's this?

Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.


8 and 9. John could still be 8 I guess, but do we just sweep James under the rug? MMP can't be true after all! Oh wait, James is in the temple! Peter tells us to listen to James and John at the end of the endowment ... what a coincidence! And James is so hidden between all the attention of Peter and John. Wait, isn't the servant hidden?

righteousrepublic wrote: ↑June 18th, 2019, 7:20 pm So far, given the evidence that I have seen, I do believe that John the Revelator will end up being the Davidic Servant and Latter-day Messiah spoken of in the Bible and LDS Scriptures. At this point, it's up to God to prove me wrong.

Ahahahah ... ahhhh... Is that how learning works? How about I prove you wrong instead, though is this how learning is achieved? You claim to know the scriptures, but who is it that seeketh after a sign - who seeks for knowledge to be given without it being earned? Knowledge doesn't come by proof but by faith. Ether 12:27

Still I can show you scripturally how it's not John, and I can likely show, by your likely response, that proof by scripture does not equal knowledge.

John received a full revelation of which The Book of Revelation is a partial account. So John sees the complete revelation of the end times play out ... He worships the angel who delivers the message .. twice. And here's the scripture that proves it's not John:

Isaiah 51:9 ¶ Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the Lord; awake, as in the ancient days, in the generations of old. Art thou not it that hath cut Rahab, and wounded the dragon?

Here's the Isaiah Institute Translation:

9 Awake, arise; clothe yourself with power,
O arm of Jehovah!
Bestir yourself, as in ancient times,
as in generations of old.
Was it not you who carved up Rahab,
you who slew the dragon?

Why would John need to awake if he's already seen a full vision of the end? Verse 10 continues this "was it not you who..." reminder because the veil has covered the mind of the Davidic Servant. John has had this veil completely removed as a witness of these end times events - as a witness of the crowning. By the way I sent my 9/23 article to Val which he said he enjoyed. He had previously concluded 9/23 was about the mortal birth of the Davidic Servant, though I'm not sure if that's pre or post him allegedly believing the servant is John. His albeit brief response to me considered 9/23 to be the baptism of fire of the servant, or a spiritual birth. I like that he's open minded .. that's how one learns new things!

righteousrepublic wrote: ↑June 18th, 2019, 7:20 pm .................................................................................................................................................................
So there we have it, folks, another person convinced that it is not the Holy Ghost but is John the Beloved that is the end time Davidic Servant.

In weighing out evidences provided by this other person, Alaris claims it is the Holy Ghost, but what do you think? Me, I stand by my knowledge and this new evidence that it isn't the HG.

You've already had several folks reply and leave their witness the Davidic Servant is the Holy Ghost in this very thread.

righteousrepublic wrote: ↑June 18th, 2019, 7:20 pm Perhaps one of the unfortunate outcomes of a "correlated," filtered and unified gospel instruction program that has evolved over the last 100 years is a gradual departure from the expansive learning and thinking of the Prophet Joseph Smith and the other early Church founders with regard to the understanding they pursued in the way of Hebrew instruction. Joseph invited Joshua Seixas son of noted Rabbi Joseph Seixas to the school of the Prophets to instruct them on the finer points of Hebrew language, Holy days and Calendars. This is something that as modern Latter-day Saints most of us have never even considered a need to learn and yet it is central to understanding the "signs of the times."

Val Brinkerhoff has restored much of the learning and mysteries that were common knowledge to our Church founders.

Source: https://www.amazon.com/Heavenly-Witness ... way&sr=8-2

I'm glad you're reading Val - he looks below the surface for the deeper meanings and connections and he's not so attached to his conclusions that he wouldn't willingly sacrifice a prior conclusion on the altar of truth.

I also like how you've cited this clear, gradual departure from the expansive learning and thinking of the Prophet Joseph Smith and the other Church followers. They, like me, believed the Davidic Servant to be a mortal. Here's is an article that was very likely written by John Taylor and ratified by Joseph Smith himself where this state of mortality vs immortality during the millennium is the primary focus, and the end times King David is clearly from the ranks of mortals.

Ezekiel after giving a description of the resurrection of the House of Israel, and the coming forth of the stick of Joseph (Book of Mormon,) and its being united with the stick of Judah (the bible;) and also the restoration of the House of Israel, that are in a state of mortality, back upon their own lands, says: “Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will save them out of all their dwelling places wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God. And David my servant shall be king over them: and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherin our fathers have dwelt, and they shall dwell therein, even they and their children, and their children’s children, forever; and my servant David shall be their prince for ever. Moreover, I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. My tabe(r)nacle also shall be with them; yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people, and the heathen shall know that I the Lord do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the mid(s)t of them for evermore.”—Ezek. xxxvii. 23–28. The above quotation has a particular allusion to that portion of the righteous that will remain in the flesh, and dwell on the earth, and eat the fruit of it. But the difference that will be, satan will be cast out of the earth, and he will have no power to tempt or deceive them: they will a[l]l be righteous, and not defile themselves any more. The Lord will set his sanctuary in the midst of them, and they shall multiply and be increased in number,—which they will continue to do, during the Millennium. The fact that they will multiply and increase, shows that they will be in a state of mortality.
The immortal saints will be made kings and priests, and they shall reign with Christ; but is is not said that the mortal ones shall be made kings and priests, to hold authority with Christ like the immortal ones, while in a state of mortality; only they shall have a king, priests, and all other necessary officers, to administer all ordinances, and perform all necessary ceremonies. We mean a king that shall be chosen or proceed out of their midst. Isaiah speaking of this day says, the Lord will restore their judges as at first, and their counsellors as at the beginning. This will be the time that God will restore their kingdom unto them which the apostles alluded to when they inquired of Jesus, if he would then restore the kingdom to Israel. (See Acts, i. 6)

According to the prophets the name of this king shall be David; not the patriarch David who was the son of Jesse; but a literal descendant of his. Some suppose that the Psalmist David will be raised from his tomb, and again reign over Israel; but we consider this one of the most unreasonable ideas that could be advanced. He no doubt will be in the Lord’s own due time raised from the dead, but not to act the part of a prince in the midst of Israel who remain in the flesh. Neither will any of the patriarchs act the part of an earthly king; although they will reign with Christ. Indeed, we have no reason to believe that Christ himself will act the part of an earthly king, or priest, to any great extent. It is inconsistent for us to suppose that the immortal saints, who are glorified, will be perpetually confined in the midst of the mortal ones. Because it is said, they shall reign on the earth, is no reason why we should say they shall be constantly among the mortal saints. The idea is that the earth will be under the control of Christ and the glorified saints, and Christ will virtually reign over the whole earth, and this David will be subject to him. The redeemed saints will reign on earth, and perhaps have in many respects, authority over the mortal ones. We do not wish to be understood, that there will be a total or entire separation between the mortal, and immortal; but the object of the foregoing remarks is to show the distinction of privilege. ~ John Taylor, Times and Seasons, 15 February 1842. Edited by Joseph Smith, Jr. (italics are in the original text)

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... ary-1842/4

This above work from John Taylor & Joseph Smith also indicates this is someone "raised up" from the lineage of Jesse. He is neither patriarch (of the seven patriarch) nor immortal (John.)

The quote below doesn't quite fit with John either who isn't really "raised up from out of the lineage of Jesse" but was at most born to that lineage 2,000 years ago.

Although David was a king, he never did obtain the spirit and power of Elijah and the fullness of the Priesthood; and the Priesthood that he received, and the throne and kingdom of David is to be taken from him and given to another by the name of David in the last days, raised up out of his lineage. ~ Joseph Smith, March 10, 1844

https://lordoftheseraphim.blogspot.com/ ... rvant.html

If I bet, I would bet good money that James is John's younger brother.

Davka wrote: ↑June 18th, 2019, 8:15 pmOne vote here for the Davidic Servant is the Holy Ghost.

I liked the article you posted about John the Revelator. The author has obviously put some thought into it and had some interesting insights.

What I find interesting is that you are even conceding the existence of a Davidic/end times servant at all. It seems not too long ago you were arguing that such a figure doesn’t exist. Not true. I have never said there is no end time servant, I have said the Holy Ghost is not him...and I stand by that belief.

Perhaps, I’m misreading you, but your posting of an “alternative” to Alaris’ belief seems a little bit disingenuous...like you know you lost the debate about a Davidic Servant, but by golly, admitting that Alaris has been right all along would just be a step too far. I never, ever lost the debate. Don't have to. The Holy Ghost is not the Davidic Servant, and I stand by that. No debate necessary. Want more proof? Isn't it interesting that on some other forums Alaris's doctrine isn't well received either? I don't find it necessary to have to go to such great lengths to prove a point, just to get shut down at every turn.

“Alright, alright, you win...but not really, because I have a better candidate!” It's not a win or lose situation, rather, a correct analysis or an incorrect analysis. When more people say this HG being the Davidic Servant is an incorrect analysis than there are saying it is a correct one, then I've already come out on top. I'm already with the majority, plain and simple.

May I suggest you get down on your knees and ask the Lord humbly to help you understand? The guidance of the Spirit truly is the only way to distinguish between just a good argument and the actual truth. The difference between the two is often, if not always, imperceptible. Understand what exactly? That which I already know to be true or a doctrine so full of holes it looks like Swiss cheese? As I said before, this doctrine hasn't flown yet anywhere I have encountered it on forums other than this one. This should say something for it.

The Holy Ghost has to be of the seed of David...he is not. He has never come to earth for a body. Thus, cannot be.
Put another way, the HG is not of the lineage of David.
The HG is not the root of Jesse
The HG is not the stem of Jesse
The Holy Ghost is Deity, a third member of the Godhead
The HG is the comfortor, the still, small voice, the testifier of the Father and the Son

The Holy Ghost cannot come to earth, take upon him a body and still be able to be everywhere, it doesn't work that way. A body would inhibit his well known purpose. He couldn't teach true seekers the peaceable things of the kingdom, or confirm truths to the hearts of men. He couldn't be a constant companion to those keeping commandments and their own covenants who have received the gift of the Holy Ghost. Are we to assume that that gift would now be ripped away from them by believing the Holy Ghost would depart from them to become a Servant for David? Somehow, I don't believe this to be the case. God would not leave people high and dry in such a manner. Would he rob those being baptized the cleansing power of the Holy Ghost so that they may be santified and justified in order to enter into the kingdom of the Father?

Would God go back on his word and rob his children of these types of things in some future time?:

Holy Ghost, Mission of

gavest also thy good spirit to instruct them, Neh. 9:20.
testifiedst against them by thy spirit in thy prophets, Neh. 9:30.
spirit … cause you to walk in my statutes, Ezek. 36:27.
I am full of power by the spirit of the Lord, Micah 3:8.
put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment, Matt. 12:18.
it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost, Mark 13:11.
Jesus … was led by the Spirit into the wilderness, Luke 4:1.
Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour, Luke 12:12.
born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom, John 3:5.
Holy Ghost … shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, John 14:26.
Spirit of truth … shall testify of me, John 15:26.
he will reprove the world of sin, John 16:8.
Spirit of truth … will guide you into all truth … shew you things to come, John 16:13 (Alma 30:46).
He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, John 16:14.
he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles, Acts 1:2.
Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before, Acts 1:16.
they were pricked in their heart, Acts 2:37.
witnesses … so is also the Holy Ghost, Acts 5:32.
Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet, Acts 28:25.
love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost, Rom. 5:5.
Spirit … maketh intercession for the saints, Rom. 8:27.
Spirit searcheth all things, 1 Cor. 2:10–11.
not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth, 1 Cor. 2:13 (2:11–15).
no man can say … Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost, 1 Cor. 12:3.
fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, Gal. 5:22.
saved us, by the … renewing of the Holy Ghost, Titus 3:5.
Holy Ghost also is a witness to us, Heb. 10:15.
preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost, 1 Pet. 1:12.
men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost, 2 Pet. 1:21.
know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error, 1 Jn. 4:6.
Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth, 1 Jn. 5:6.
make himself manifest, by the Holy Ghost, 1 Ne. 10:11 (2 Ne. 26:13; 3 Ne. 15:23).
Spirit of God, that it came down and wrought upon the man, 1 Ne. 13:12.
cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost, 2 Ne. 31:17 (Mosiah 4:3).
Holy Ghost, which witnesses of the Father and the Son, 2 Ne. 31:18.
Holy Ghost, it will show unto you all things what ye should do, 2 Ne. 32:5.
power of the Holy Ghost carrieth it unto the hearts, 2 Ne. 33:1.
Spirit speaketh the truth and lieth not, Jacob 4:13.
Lord God poured in his Spirit into my soul, Jacob 7:8.
made manifest unto me by the power of the Holy Ghost, Jacob 7:12.
made known unto me by the Holy Spirit of God, Alma 5:46.
thy thoughts are made known unto us by his Spirit, Alma 12:3.
not manifest myself unto them save … by the Holy Ghost, 3 Ne. 15:23.
pouring out of the Holy Ghost through me upon the Gentiles, 3 Ne. 20:27.
sanctified by the reception of the Holy Ghost, 3 Ne. 27:20.
Holy Ghost beareth record of the Father and me, 3 Ne. 28:11 (Ether 12:41).
by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things, Moro. 10:5 (10:3–5).
ye may know that he is, by the power of the Holy Ghost, Moro. 10:7.
thou hast been enlightened by the Spirit of truth, D&C 6:15.
tell you in your mind and in your heart, by the Holy Ghost, D&C 8:2.
put your trust in that Spirit which leadeth to do, D&C 11:12.
Holy Ghost, which giveth utterance, that … witness, D&C 14:8.
Holy Ghost, which beareth record of the Father and of the Son, D&C 20:27.
Holy Ghost … showeth all things, and teacheth, D&C 39:6.
receive not the Spirit ye shall not teach, D&C 42:14.
wise … have taken the Holy Spirit for their guide, D&C 45:57.
He that asketh in the Spirit asketh according to the will of God, D&C 46:30.
doth he preach it by the Spirit of truth, D&C 50:17.
speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost shall be scripture, D&C 68:4.
appointed by the Holy Spirit to go up unto Zion, D&C 72:24.
sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, D&C 76:53 (132:7).
having a knowledge of them by the Spirit of truth, D&C 107:71.
Reproving betimes … when moved upon by the Holy Ghost, D&C 121:43.
Holy Ghost shall be thy constant companion, D&C 121:46.
beheld the earth … discerning it by the Spirit of God, Moses 1:27.
write by the spirit of inspiration, Moses 6:5.
Adam … was caught away by the Spirit of the Lord … laid under the water, Moses 6:64.
born of the Spirit, and became quickened in the inner man, Moses 6:65.
Holy Ghost, that ye may have all things made manifest, Moses 8:24.

The Holy Ghost will be needed until the end of the earth as he is right now. To be there for the last person on earth to be baptized. As Satan's influence becomes stronger and stronger, people will need him to help[ and guide them through the harshest of times. For without him, they may fall hard. We already know that the very elect will be at risk. Take away the HG and then see what happens. How can he perform two, totally different roles simultaneously?

righteousrepublic wrote: ↑June 19th, 2019, 12:49 am

Davka wrote: ↑June 18th, 2019, 8:15 pmOne vote here for the Davidic Servant is the Holy Ghost.

I liked the article you posted about John the Revelator. The author has obviously put some thought into it and had some interesting insights.

What I find interesting is that you are even conceding the existence of a Davidic/end times servant at all. It seems not too long ago you were arguing that such a figure doesn’t exist. Not true. I have never said there is no end time servant, I have said the Holy Ghost is not him...and I stand by that belief.

Perhaps, I’m misreading you, but your posting of an “alternative” to Alaris’ belief seems a little bit disingenuous...like you know you lost the debate about a Davidic Servant, but by golly, admitting that Alaris has been right all along would just be a step too far. I never, ever lost the debate. Don't have to. The Holy Ghost is not the Davidic Servant, and I stand by that. No debate necessary. Want more proof? Isn't it interesting that on some other forums Alaris's doctrine isn't well received either? I don't find it necessary to have to go to such great lengths to prove a point, just to get shut down at every turn.

“Alright, alright, you win...but not really, because I have a better candidate!” It's not a win or lose situation, rather, a correct analysis or an incorrect analysis. When more people say this HG being the Davidic Servant is an incorrect analysis than there are saying it is a correct one, then I've already come out on top. I'm already with the majority, plain and simple.

May I suggest you get down on your knees and ask the Lord humbly to help you understand? The guidance of the Spirit truly is the only way to distinguish between just a good argument and the actual truth. The difference between the two is often, if not always, imperceptible. Understand what exactly? That which I already know to be true or a doctrine so full of holes it looks like Swiss cheese? As I said before, this doctrine hasn't flown yet anywhere I have encountered it on forums other than this one. This should say something for it.

The Holy Ghost has to be of the seed of David...he is not. He has never come to earth for a body. Thus, cannot be.
Put another way, the HG is not of the lineage of David.
The HG is not the root of Jesse
The HG is not the stem of Jesse
The Holy Ghost is Deity, a third member of the Godhead
The HG is the comfortor, the still, small voice, the testifier of the Father and the Son

The Holy Ghost cannot come to earth, take upon him a body and still be able to be everywhere, it doesn't work that way. A body would inhibit his well known purpose. He couldn't teach true seekers the peaceable things of the kingdom, or confirm truths to the hearts of men. He couldn't be a constant companion to those keeping commandments and their own covenants who have received the gift of the Holy Ghost. Are we to assume that that gift would now be ripped away from them by believing the Holy Ghost would depart from them to become a Servant for David? Somehow, I don't believe this to be the case. God would not leave people high and dry in such a manner. Would he rob those being baptized the cleansing power of the Holy Ghost so that they may be santified and justified in order to enter into the kingdom of the Father?

Would God go back on his word and rob his children of these types of things in some future time?:

Holy Ghost, Mission of

gavest also thy good spirit to instruct them, Neh. 9:20.
testifiedst against them by thy spirit in thy prophets, Neh. 9:30.
spirit … cause you to walk in my statutes, Ezek. 36:27.
I am full of power by the spirit of the Lord, Micah 3:8.
put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment, Matt. 12:18.
it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost, Mark 13:11.
Jesus … was led by the Spirit into the wilderness, Luke 4:1.
Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour, Luke 12:12.
born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom, John 3:5.
Holy Ghost … shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, John 14:26.
Spirit of truth … shall testify of me, John 15:26.
he will reprove the world of sin, John 16:8.
Spirit of truth … will guide you into all truth … shew you things to come, John 16:13 (Alma 30:46).
He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, John 16:14.
he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles, Acts 1:2.
Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before, Acts 1:16.
they were pricked in their heart, Acts 2:37.
witnesses … so is also the Holy Ghost, Acts 5:32.
Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet, Acts 28:25.
love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost, Rom. 5:5.
Spirit … maketh intercession for the saints, Rom. 8:27.
Spirit searcheth all things, 1 Cor. 2:10–11.
not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth, 1 Cor. 2:13 (2:11–15).
no man can say … Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost, 1 Cor. 12:3.
fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, Gal. 5:22.
saved us, by the … renewing of the Holy Ghost, Titus 3:5.
Holy Ghost also is a witness to us, Heb. 10:15.
preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost, 1 Pet. 1:12.
men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost, 2 Pet. 1:21.
know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error, 1 Jn. 4:6.
Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth, 1 Jn. 5:6.
make himself manifest, by the Holy Ghost, 1 Ne. 10:11 (2 Ne. 26:13; 3 Ne. 15:23).
Spirit of God, that it came down and wrought upon the man, 1 Ne. 13:12.
cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost, 2 Ne. 31:17 (Mosiah 4:3).
Holy Ghost, which witnesses of the Father and the Son, 2 Ne. 31:18.
Holy Ghost, it will show unto you all things what ye should do, 2 Ne. 32:5.
power of the Holy Ghost carrieth it unto the hearts, 2 Ne. 33:1.
Spirit speaketh the truth and lieth not, Jacob 4:13.
Lord God poured in his Spirit into my soul, Jacob 7:8.
made manifest unto me by the power of the Holy Ghost, Jacob 7:12.
made known unto me by the Holy Spirit of God, Alma 5:46.
thy thoughts are made known unto us by his Spirit, Alma 12:3.
not manifest myself unto them save … by the Holy Ghost, 3 Ne. 15:23.
pouring out of the Holy Ghost through me upon the Gentiles, 3 Ne. 20:27.
sanctified by the reception of the Holy Ghost, 3 Ne. 27:20.
Holy Ghost beareth record of the Father and me, 3 Ne. 28:11 (Ether 12:41).
by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things, Moro. 10:5 (10:3–5).
ye may know that he is, by the power of the Holy Ghost, Moro. 10:7.
thou hast been enlightened by the Spirit of truth, D&C 6:15.
tell you in your mind and in your heart, by the Holy Ghost, D&C 8:2.
put your trust in that Spirit which leadeth to do, D&C 11:12.
Holy Ghost, which giveth utterance, that … witness, D&C 14:8.
Holy Ghost, which beareth record of the Father and of the Son, D&C 20:27.
Holy Ghost … showeth all things, and teacheth, D&C 39:6.
receive not the Spirit ye shall not teach, D&C 42:14.
wise … have taken the Holy Spirit for their guide, D&C 45:57.
He that asketh in the Spirit asketh according to the will of God, D&C 46:30.
doth he preach it by the Spirit of truth, D&C 50:17.
speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost shall be scripture, D&C 68:4.
appointed by the Holy Spirit to go up unto Zion, D&C 72:24.
sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, D&C 76:53 (132:7).
having a knowledge of them by the Spirit of truth, D&C 107:71.
Reproving betimes … when moved upon by the Holy Ghost, D&C 121:43.
Holy Ghost shall be thy constant companion, D&C 121:46.
beheld the earth … discerning it by the Spirit of God, Moses 1:27.
write by the spirit of inspiration, Moses 6:5.
Adam … was caught away by the Spirit of the Lord … laid under the water, Moses 6:64.
born of the Spirit, and became quickened in the inner man, Moses 6:65.
Holy Ghost, that ye may have all things made manifest, Moses 8:24.

The Holy Ghost will be needed until the end of the earth as he is right now. To be there for the last person on earth to be baptized. As Satan's influence becomes stronger and stronger, people will need him to help[ and guide them through the harshest of times. For without him, they may fall hard. We already know that the very elect will be at risk. Take away the HG and then see what happens. How can he perform two, totally different roles simultaneously?

The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are callings, titles, stations of eternal progression. They have been, and will be callings from and to all eternity. Think of a Bishopric, only a high and heavenly Bishopric. To assume or believe that the Holy Ghost is and will be only one person... Well... Yeah.

If the 2nd counsellor in the Bishopric leaves the state to find a new home, he is released, and a replacement is called and set apart to perform the exact same functions as the previous 2nd counsellor.

Pray about it in a manner of humility, not pride, and if your intentions are humble and honest in seeking truth, the truth will be made manifest

ABOUT VAL BRINKERHOFF
Val has taught on the college and university level for 35 years (full-time), working for Colorado Mountain College, Western Wyoming College, Utah State University, and Brigham Young University. He retired from BYU in 2015. His work has been published in 30 magazine articles and 14 books (9 of which he wrote). His latest book is entitled The Remnant Awakens (about the rising up of Native Americans in our day in fulfillment of various covenants in the Book of Mormon and the Bible). Val’s artwork has also been exhibited nationwide, his last solo exhibit taking up four galleries at the Springville Art Museum.
​He and his wife live in Elk Ridge, Utah.

Books by Val:

https://www.amazon.com/s?i=stripbooks&r ... _sr_book_1

DJB wrote: ↑June 19th, 2019, 2:38 amThe Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are callings, titles, stations of eternal progression. They have been, and will be callings from and to all eternity. Think of a Bishopric, only a high and heavenly Bishopric. To assume or believe that the Holy Ghost is and will be only one person... Well... Yeah.

If the 2nd counsellor in the Bishopric leaves the state to find a new home, he is released, and a replacement is called and set apart to perform the exact same functions as the previous 2nd counsellor.

Pray about it in a manner of humility, not pride, and if your intentions are humble and honest in seeking truth, the truth will be made manifest

Alma 13:9
9 Thus they become high priests forever, after the order of the Son, the Only Begotten of the Father, who is without beginning of days or end of years, who is full of grace, equity, and truth. And thus it is. Amen.

Mormon 9:9
9 For do we not read that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and in him there is no variableness neither shadow of changing?

Doctrine and Covenants 20:12
12 Thereby showing that he is the same God yesterday, today, and forever. Amen.

Doctrine and Covenants 29:33
33 Speaking unto you that you may naturally understand; but unto myself my works have no end, neither beginning; but it is given unto you that ye may understand, because ye have asked it of me and are agreed.

Moses 1:3
3 And God spake unto Moses, saying: Behold, I am the Lord God Almighty, and Endless is my name; for I am without beginning of days or end of years; and is not this endless?

Doctrine and Covenants 35:1
1 Listen to the voice of the Lord your God, even Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, whose course is one eternal round, the same today as yesterday, and forever.
.................................................................................................................................................................
God will always be God.

Heresy one: There are those who say that God is progressing in knowledge and is learning new truths.

This is false—utterly, totally, and completely. There is not one sliver of truth in it. It grows out of a wholly twisted and incorrect view of the King Follett Sermon and of what is meant by eternal progression.

God progresses in the sense that his kingdoms increase and his dominions multiply—not in the sense that he learns new truths and discovers new laws. God is not a student. He is not a laboratory technician. He is not postulating new theories on the basis of past experiences. He has indeed graduated to that state of exaltation that consists of knowing all things and having all power.

The life that God lives is named eternal life. His name, one of them, is “Eternal,” using that word as a noun and not as an adjective, and he uses that name to identify the type of life that he lives. God’s life is eternal life, and eternal life is God’s life. They are one and the same. Eternal life is the reward we shall obtain if we believe and obey and walk uprightly before him. And eternal life consists of two things. It consists of life in the family unit, and, also, of inheriting, receiving, and possessing the fullness of the glory of the Father. Anyone who has each of these things is an inheritor and possessor of the greatest of all gifts of God, which is eternal life.

Eternal progression consists of living the kind of life God lives and of increasing in kingdoms and dominions everlastingly. Why anyone should suppose that an infinite and eternal being who has presided in our universe for almost 2,555,000,000 years, who made the sidereal heavens, whose creations are more numerous than the particles of the earth, and who is aware of the fall of every sparrow—why anyone would suppose that such a being has more to learn and new truths to discover in the laboratories of eternity is totally beyond my comprehension.

Will he one day learn something that will destroy the plan of salvation and turn man and the universe into an uncreated nothingness? Will he discover a better plan of salvation than the one he has already given to men in worlds without number?

The saving truth, as revealed to and taught, formally and officially, by the Prophet Joseph Smith in the Lectures on Faith is that God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. He knows all things, he has all power, and he is everywhere present by the power of his Spirit. And unless we know and believe this doctrine we cannot gain faith unto life and salvation.

Joseph Smith also taught in the Lectures on Faith “that three things are necessary in order that any rational and intelligent being may exercise faith in God unto life and salvation.” These he named as—

1. The idea that he actually exists;

2. A correct idea of his character, perfections, and attributes; and

3. An actual knowledge that the course of life which he is pursuing is according to the divine will.

The attributes of God are given as knowledge, faith or power, justice, judgment, mercy, and truth. The perfections of God are named as “the perfections which belong to all of the attributes of his nature,” which is to say that God possesses and has all knowledge, all faith or power, all justice, all judgment, all mercy, and all truth. He is indeed the very embodiment and personification and source of all these attributes. Does anyone suppose that God can be more honest than he already is? Neither need any suppose there are truths he does not know or knowledge he does not possess.

Thus Joseph Smith taught, and these are his words:

Without the knowledge of all things, God would not be able to save any portion of his creatures; for it is by reason of the knowledge which he has of all things, from the beginning to the end, that enables him to give that understanding to his creatures by which they are made partakers of eternal life; and if it were not for the idea existing in the minds of men that God had all knowledge it would be impossible for them to exercise faith in him. [As quoted by Bruce R. McConkie in Mormon Doctrine (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1966), p.264]

If God is just dabbling with a few truths he has already chanced to learn or experimenting with a few facts he has already discovered, we have no idea as to the real end and purpose of creation.

Source: https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/bruce-r- ... -heresies/

I love the seven deadly heresies. I've heard and read it many times and could probably do a mean Bruce R impression. I'll always be grateful to Bruce R who is the one who awakened me to the truth of there being seven archangels in Mormon Doctrine, since that isn't listed anywhere in our canon but is all over the apocrypha. Hrm.... I wonder why that is! Did God or the Devil want Job tested?

It's just too bad Bruce R never became prophet and had the authority to declare doctrine! Isn't it? Because I'm not going spend any time on pointing out how Jesus wasn't perfect until he ascended and the Holy Ghost is below Jesus in authority - and thus has not received all - ...or spend time telling you that Bruce R is clearly speaking of God the Father. Whoops! I just did!

I appreciate Davka and DJB's replies above which are far more charitable than mine. I submit to you righteousrepublic, that you keep posting here because:

A. You just don't like Alaris (though I don't know how anyone would get that idea lol)
B. There's something about this thread you just can't seem to get over

I guess it could be both. Let's let bygones be bygones. I applaud you for reading Val. Did you know he believes in MMP? He's got an article on it somewhere, and I'm happy to send it to you if you'd like. Please consider I don't agree with everything he says in that article, in fact I disagree with some things strongly. However, Val is clearly a truth seeker and he does have a gift to make connections undoubtedly.

I'm going to join my voice to Davka and DJB and Abijah and any others who have posted their witness that the Davidic Servant is the Holy Ghost and ask that you ask in humility, willing to be wrong. Heck, even plant a seed. Your "draw" you declared earlier awesomely was lost by your own rules rather humorously, almost like deep, deep, down you wanted to lose. Sort of like the one whose faith in God is in question who prays and says, "God show me a sign or you don't exist!" and then a random stranger shows that person kindness later that same day.

I was praying about you RR yesterday ... and today ... considering whether I should even respond to you. Then the thought came to me, "why does he keep posting?" Is it because you don't believe or is it because you're starting to believe and it is so unsettling you're trying your darndest to stamp this all out! Davka astutely pointed out you used to not believe in the Davidic Servant. I remember that! I had forgotten. Even embracing Val is a good step imho because the one who is 10 % correct but believes and receives is better off than the person who is 90 % correct and says, "we have enough." Do you know why that is? I'm happy to explain, but sometimes answers are best found personally.

Val Brinkerhoff is way zanier than Avraham Gileadi. Have you followed the Lord's command to take that deep dive into Isaiah yet with a humble heart and a prayer? Are you willing to let go of past conclusions you've assumed to be true to embrace actual truth - new information? Did you know Joseph Smith said when the heavens are opened they are opened to show you something you've never before considered?

If God just handed you knowledge written on a tablet by his own finger that reads, "The Davidic Servant is the Holy Ghost" and then commanded you to share that experience here, would it pain you?

I think why I keep asking if you're actually reading my posts is because the things you keep posting don't seem to even consider what's being said. That's not a fair judgement to place upon you. If I had not walked the path I have walked, I wonder if I would be able to recognize this truth if I were reading this thread like you.

However, you did lay out a challenge, and witnesses responded to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses....that has satisfied your demand. Now, I don't challenge you to prove me wrong RR. I challenge you to get on your knees and ask God if these things are not true. What on earth could you have to lose? Your pride? Remember, that's a good thing. Do you, or do you not believe God will answer you? Because until you do this, you will not have done what at least 5 folks in this thread have done. Gospel dispensations have started on less.

Jesus Christ, Davidic Descent of

David was the son of … Jesse, 1 Sam. 17:12.
I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever, 2 Sam. 7:13.
Thy seed will I establish for ever, Ps. 89:4.
fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne, Ps. 132:11.
will I make the horn of David to bud, Ps. 132:17.
upon the throne of David, Isa. 9:7.
rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch, Isa. 11:1 (2 Ne. 21:1).
I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, Jer. 23:5.
cause the Branch … to grow up unto David, Jer. 33:15.
generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, Matt. 1:1.
Is not this the son of David, Matt. 12:23.
whose son is he … The Son of David, Matt. 22:42.
God shall give unto him the throne of his father David, Luke 1:32.
Christ cometh of the seed of David, John 7:42 (Rom. 1:3).
of the fruit of his loins … he would raise up Christ, Acts 2:30.
Of this man’s seed hath God … raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus, Acts 13:23.
root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign, Rom. 15:12.
I am the root and the offspring of David, Rev. 22:16.
Who is the Stem of Jesse spoken of, D&C 113:1.
.................................................................................................................................................................
The Davidic servant is King David, ...no, it's Elijah.

https://askgramps.org/who-is-the-davidi ... criptures/
.................................................................................................................................................................
Jer. 23
5 ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, The Lord Our Righteousness.
.................................................................................................................................................................
Ezek 34
23 And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd.
24 And I the Lord will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the Lord have spoken it.
.................................................................................................................................................................
D&C 113
1 Who is the Stem of Jesse spoken of in the 1st, 2d, 3d, 4th, and 5th verses of the 11th chapter of Isaiah?
2 Verily thus saith the Lord: It is Christ.
3 What is the rod spoken of in the first verse of the 11th chapter of Isaiah, that should come of the Stem of Jesse?
4 Behold, thus saith the Lord: It is a servant in the hands of Christ, who is partly a descendant of Jesse as well as of Ephraim, or of the house of Joseph, on whom there is laid much power.
5 What is the root of Jesse spoken of in the 10th verse of the 11th chapter?
6 Behold, thus saith the Lord, it is a descendant of Jesse, as well as of Joseph, unto whom rightly belongs the priesthood, and the keys of the kingdom, for an ensign, and for the gathering of my people in the last days.
.................................................................................................................................................................
D&C 110
13 After this vision had closed, another great and glorious vision burst upon us; for Elijah the prophet, who was taken to heaven without tasting death, stood before us, and said:
14 Behold, the time has fully come, which was spoken of by the mouth of Malachi—testifying that he [Elijah] should be sent, before the great and dreadful day of the Lord come—
15 To turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse—
16 Therefore, the keys of this dispensation are committed into your hands; and by this ye may know that the great and dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors.
.................................................................................................................................................................
Hosea 3
4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim:
5 Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the Lord their God, and David their king; and shall fear the Lord and his goodness in the latter days.

righteousrepublic wrote: ↑June 19th, 2019, 9:06 pmHosea 3
4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim:

I love this verse. How long we have been without teraphim and an ephod. How we wait for they, with they waiting for us. The beginning of generations will know the final like their own sons, and vis-versa.

What are your thoughts?

abijah wrote: ↑June 19th, 2019, 9:33 pm

righteousrepublic wrote: ↑June 19th, 2019, 9:06 pmHosea 3
4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim:

I love this verse. How long we have been without teraphim and an ephod. How we wait for they, with they waiting for us. The beginning of generations will know the final like their own sons, and vis-versa.

What are your thoughts?

Sounds like there has been and will be culture changes. Are we supposed to have idols?

ephod
A vestment worn by ancient Hebrew priests.

teraphim
A small image or idol representing an ancient Semitic household god.

Semitic
1. Of or relating to the Semites or their languages or cultures.

righteousrepublic wrote: ↑June 19th, 2019, 10:09 pm Sounds like there has been and will be culture changes. Are we supposed to have idols?

Well Hosea clearly yearns for the day when the teraphim, like in ancient practices, will be reinstated in the endtime. Certainly indicates a radical culture shift to me. Certainly seems like the sort of thing modern Big Tech is seeking to replicate, or soon will.

Everyone wants eternal life. But there is ultimately one way to obtain it.

Alaris wrote: ↑June 19th, 2019, 6:01 pm I love the seven deadly heresies. I've heard and read it many times and could probably do a mean Bruce R impression. I'll always be grateful to Bruce R who is the one who awakened me to the truth of there being seven archangels in Mormon Doctrine, since that isn't listed anywhere in our canon but is all over the apocrypha. Hrm.... I wonder why that is! Did God or the Devil want Job tested?

It's just too bad Bruce R never became prophet and had the authority to declare doctrine! Isn't it? Because I'm not going spend any time on pointing out how Jesus wasn't perfect until he ascended and the Holy Ghost is below Jesus in authority - and thus has not received all - ...or spend time telling you that Bruce R is clearly speaking of God the Father. Whoops! I just did!

I appreciate Davka and DJB's replies above which are far more charitable than mine. I submit to you righteousrepublic, that you keep posting here because:

A. You just don't like Alaris (though I don't know how anyone would get that idea lol)
B. There's something about this thread you just can't seem to get over

I guess it could be both. Let's let bygones be bygones. I applaud you for reading Val. Did you know he believes in MMP? He's got an article on it somewhere, and I'm happy to send it to you if you'd like. Please consider I don't agree with everything he says in that article, in fact I disagree with some things strongly. However, Val is clearly a truth seeker and he does have a gift to make connections undoubtedly.

I'm going to join my voice to Davka and DJB and Abijah and any others who have posted their witness that the Davidic Servant is the Holy Ghost and ask that you ask in humility, willing to be wrong. Heck, even plant a seed. Your "draw" you declared earlier awesomely was lost by your own rules rather humorously, almost like deep, deep, down you wanted to lose. Sort of like the one whose faith in God is in question who prays and says, "God show me a sign or you don't exist!" and then a random stranger shows that person kindness later that same day.

I was praying about you RR yesterday ... and today ... considering whether I should even respond to you. Then the thought came to me, "why does he keep posting?" Is it because you don't believe or is it because you're starting to believe and it is so unsettling you're trying your darndest to stamp this all out! Davka astutely pointed out you used to not believe in the Davidic Servant. I remember that! I had forgotten. Even embracing Val is a good step imho because the one who is 10 % correct but believes and receives is better off than the person who is 90 % correct and says, "we have enough." Do you know why that is? I'm happy to explain, but sometimes answers are best found personally.

Val Brinkerhoff is way zanier than Avraham Gileadi. Have you followed the Lord's command to take that deep dive into Isaiah yet with a humble heart and a prayer? Are you willing to let go of past conclusions you've assumed to be true to embrace actual truth - new information? Did you know Joseph Smith said when the heavens are opened they are opened to show you something you've never before considered?

If God just handed you knowledge written on a tablet by his own finger that reads, "The Davidic Servant is the Holy Ghost" and then commanded you to share that experience here, would it pain you?

I think why I keep asking if you're actually reading my posts is because the things you keep posting don't seem to even consider what's being said. That's not a fair judgement to place upon you. If I had not walked the path I have walked, I wonder if I would be able to recognize this truth if I were reading this thread like you.

However, you did lay out a challenge, and witnesses responded to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses....that has satisfied your demand. Now, I don't challenge you to prove me wrong RR. I challenge you to get on your knees and ask God if these things are not true. What on earth could you have to lose? Your pride? Remember, that's a good thing. Do you, or do you not believe God will answer you? Because until you do this, you will not have done what at least 5 folks in this thread have done. Gospel dispensations have started on less.

I have been hesitant to add my testimony here because this is a precious truth to me that I don't even speak about with other people in person. It's like the real meaning of the Savior's parables. They were hidden for a reason and I have feared sharing truths that others aren't ready for and might then be accountable for. This is the very principle of Alma 12:9-11 in action.

9 And now Alma began to expound these things unto him, saying: It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him.
10 And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full.
11 And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell.

There are of course mysteries that God is anxious to teach but we are charged with keeping them to ourselves unless moved upon by the Holy Ghost to share.

I first began to understand the doctrine of MMP back in 2011. I spoke of it to no one and pondered it in my heart for a little over 7 years, when I stumbled upon this forum. I was amazed at how much Alaris' articles synced up with, and moved well beyond my own understanding. I studied, pondered, prayed, and took these things to the temple weekly from last December to now. The seed has born fruit and blossomed and the Spirit has taught me more and more each week. It's not even a question for me anymore whether we do this mortality thing more than once.

Part of the danger of speaking of this doctrine is when people don't fully understand it, they can take it as a second-chance doctrine. I think this is the biggest reason it has been obscured intentionally by God. Amulek wasn't wrong when he said "For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors" (Alma 34:32). It truly is. There is no time to waste in this probation. It requires everything. This is why Joseph said:

D&C 130:18 Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection.
19 And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come.

A true understanding of this doctrine leads us to a greater sense of urgency in the work; a greater love and respect for the living prophets of God, and a greater willingness to do those things in our callings that we may otherwise procrastinate or leave undone. But the danger of not getting that understanding, which may lead to slothfulness and sin, is the greater risk. Which is why I don't really talk about it with others.

I am one who also has a strong love and respect for Elder McConkie. I have listened to Seven Deadly Heresies and Our Relationship with the Lord more times than I can count. I own and study his DNTC series. I have a Bruce R. McConkie playlist on iTunes with dozens of his BYU devotionals and conference talks. I love him and yearn for the day I get to meet him. On this subject, if every single prophet had always taught against this doctrine then I would've cast it out immediately. There are certain places I'm not willing to go. Going against all the prophets is one of them. I struggled with his very clear statement against this doctrine for several years. How could there be such confusion over this point of doctrine? I put it on the shelf and just prayed about it until I was led to my answer earlier this year. I have my answer and will share if I feel prompted to do so. It has reconciled everything for me. I do believe this doctrine to be true. I believe he is the Holy Ghost, and I am leaning toward Him being James. I haven't confirmed this last identity though. It's as though it's...hidden...

Also, Alaris, I have a few more thoughts regarding an additional identity of the Davidic Servant that seems to be emerging for me in my studies lately. I'll PM you about it as soon as I can get them organized.

Robbinius wrote: ↑June 20th, 2019, 9:58 am I have been hesitant to add my testimony here because this is a precious truth to me that I don't even speak about with other people in person. It's like the real meaning of the Savior's parables. They were hidden for a reason and I have feared sharing truths that others aren't ready for and might then be accountable for. This is the very principle of Alma 12:9-11 in action.

I definitely thought about adding your name, but I wasn't sure if you had posted your witness publicly, so I'm glad I didn't! President Nelson says you must learn to receive from the Holy Ghost to survive spiritually. Obviously if you believe the Holy Ghost is here among us in mortality, then this is a very intentional, layered meaning. Many layers - such as, "I can't just hand you this knowledge, and it won't come from the top down but from the bottom up." Keep those wicks trimmed and lamps oiled, else the parable would be a bunch of virgins following one man around with oil in his lamp lighting the way for everyone.

Robbinius wrote: ↑June 20th, 2019, 9:58 am 9 And now Alma began to expound these things unto him, saying: It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him.
10 And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full.
11 And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell.

This also reinforces the parable of the 10 virgins. To keep your lamp oiled and wick trimmed, you have to always be asking, seeking, and knocking. The moment we say "we have enough" and harden our hearts ...that oil starts to drain quickly imho.

Robbinius wrote: ↑June 20th, 2019, 9:58 am There are of course mysteries that God is anxious to teach but we are charged with keeping them to ourselves unless moved upon by the Holy Ghost to share.

I first began to understand the doctrine of MMP back in 2011. I spoke of it to no one and pondered it in my heart for a little over 7 years, when I stumbled upon this forum. I was amazed at how much Alaris' articles synced up with, and moved well beyond my own understanding. I studied, pondered, prayed, and took these things to the temple weekly from last December to now. The seed has born fruit and blossomed and the Spirit has taught me more and more each week. It's not even a question for me anymore whether we do this mortality thing more than once.

I've said this before, so I apologize for the broken record--I always thought MMP was so obvious and such a lighter deep doctrine that folks would at least consider it without flying to pieces like glass. I've had several folks reach out to me from my blog that they've felt similarly and were also shocked, as was I, at the extreme anger that's received at the mere suggesting it. If it's false, why all that anger? Could it be Alma 12 in play? Have those flaxen cords become binding after folks stop seeking and receiving? MMP is key to understand who the Davidic Servant is. If the devil was indeed lobbying for or fell from the office of the Holy Ghost, then he hates the servant. The "fury of thy oppressor" is what the Lord says to the servant when he awakens him in Isaiah 51. Fury indeed. And if true, then at the mere mention of MMP, those cords are yanked by the fury of the oppressor. Sad to see so many are so wrapped up they don't even seem to notice the fruits of the adversary that stand in stark contrast to the fruits of the spirit. Anger, dishonesty, contention. I can't tell you how many times I've been deliberately misstated, misquoted or had fabricated conclusions attributed to me. It's like the very devils themselves are screaming.

Robbinius wrote: ↑June 20th, 2019, 9:58 am Part of the danger of speaking of this doctrine is when people don't fully understand it, they can take it as a second-chance doctrine. I think this is the biggest reason it has been obscured intentionally by God. Amulek wasn't wrong when he said "For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors" (Alma 34:32). It truly is. There is no time to waste in this probation. It requires everything. This is why Joseph said:

D&C 130:18 Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection.
19 And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come.

A true understanding of this doctrine leads us to a greater sense of urgency in the work; a greater love and respect for the living prophets of God, and a greater willingness to do those things in our callings that we may otherwise procrastinate or leave undone. But the danger of not getting that understanding, which may lead to slothfulness and sin, is the greater risk. Which is why I don't really talk about it with others.

Beautifully said. However, I strongly believe it's not those who aren't ready to hear it that go straight to "rinse and repeat" but those who are being yanked about by the flaxen cord or the binding chains. Regular folks just listen, and if they're not ready - why get all angry and break out the torches? Those are struggling within, literally, with their own demons because of the principles outline in Alma 12.

Each run on Jacob's ladder must be climbed. No rung can be skipped. Our new (old) name aligns to the laws of Obedience and Sacrifice. Our name now aligns to the Law of the Gospel, for that is the time and season. Each principle mastered, all knowledge gained, rises with us in the world to come. Combine the above, amazing quote from Joseph Smith with this one:

“When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the Gospel– you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave.” Joseph Smith, History of the Church, 6:306-307

I mean if you just sit and think about the temple. Why do we align to the Law of the Gospel. Why does our "new name" align to the laws of Obedience and Gospel. Why does no name at all align to Chastity and Consecration. Notice how when we make those covenants, no name is used, unlike the first two which tell you WHICH name to use. Past, present, and future. Who you were before was attaining to the principles of obedience (level 3 - Moses) and sacrifice (level 4- Abraham / Levi / Aaron)

Robbinius wrote: ↑June 20th, 2019, 9:58 am I am one who also has a strong love and respect for Elder McConkie. I have listened to Seven Deadly Heresies and Our Relationship with the Lord more times than I can count. I own and study his DNTC series. I have a Bruce R. McConkie playlist on iTunes with dozens of his BYU devotionals and conference talks. I love him and yearn for the day I get to meet him. On this subject, if every single prophet had always taught against this doctrine then I would've cast it out immediately. There are certain places I'm not willing to go. Going against all the prophets is one of them. I struggled with his very clear statement against this doctrine for several years. How could there be such confusion over this point of doctrine? I put it on the shelf and just prayed about it until I was led to my answer earlier this year. I have my answer and will share if I feel prompted to do so. It has reconciled everything for me. I do believe this doctrine to be true. I believe he is the Holy Ghost, and I am leaning toward Him being James. I haven't confirmed this last identity though. It's as though it's...hidden...

Also, Alaris, I have a few more thoughts regarding an additional identity of the Davidic Servant that seems to be emerging for me in my studies lately. I'll PM you about it as soon as I can get them organized.

I can't wait to hear! I don't think Bruce R necessarily knew about the Davidic Servant & Holy Ghost - given times and seasons and all. We forget the apostles disciples of the Lord who reveals to them what He wills when He wills. I don't think Bruce R was necessarily wrong about no progression between kingdoms - however I think he's referring to an everlasting consignment. Perhaps folks are given a chance to progress ... just like the temple shows us ... from one law to the next .. from one kingdom to the next as we master those laws which align to kingdoms. It's about as clear as can be in the temple - you progress through these kingdoms where there are greater and greater laws that must be mastered. However, perhaps the final judgement of eternal consignment is for those who either don't choose this path, or proves there aren't endless chances. Once final judgement is given....it's final but until then ...happy to be wrong. Many folks believe a truly merciful God would always allow any willing soul another opportunity because why not? Whatever the case, the plan of course will be perfectly merciful without robbing perfect justice.

Isaiah 6 is the ordinance of the Seraphim where they are sent to the world to teach to those who cannot see or hear or understand. This is the first order of "seeing." (6th order of mankind)

I was thinking, which is actually be difficult by the way as I'm quite ill (extra prayers appreciated), about the steeper descent and ascents that correspond. The Davidic Servant is a lesser participant in the Davidic Covenant. Though his descent and ascent will match they will both pale in comparison the Lord's.

Jesus was sent to the Jews... The doubly cursed least of Israel. They are of such a level as to crucify their own God.

But what about the Davidic Servant? He will be sent among the Ephraim items (5th order) per Isaiah 28, the doubly blessed greatest tribe of Israel. Yet Isaiah 28 indicates Ephraim is in no state to receive or recognize him, I don't think he will be physically marred by Ephraim. Might could be wrong on that but it the lesser descent aligns to the lesser God being sent among the greatest of Israel... Imho

I mean let's be real. Would Ephraim start changing "crucify him?"

I was just thinking, "Why is Ephraim blind?" Then this all sort of snapped into focus.

Alaris wrote: ↑June 22nd, 2019, 7:00 pm Isaiah 6 is the ordinance of the Seraphim where they are sent to the world to teach to those who cannot see or hear or understand.

Haven’t considered a correlation put quite like that, interesting.

I was thinking, which is actually be difficult by the way as I'm quite ill (extra prayers appreciated), about the steeper descent and ascents that correspond. The Davidic Servant is a lesser participant in the Davidic Covenant. Though his descent and ascent will match they will both pale in comparison the Lord's.

Hopefully you feel better soon

The Davidic Servant is clearly the lesser figure, like how it is with all covenants, in which God is always the higher authority. Though I’ve come to find the term “davidic servant” less and less tasteful, as it diminishes the scope of the mission. This is the angel who preserved Abraham, in whom is typed the fulfillment of the entirety of the Abrahamic covenant through which the blessings of the Sanctuary (return to Eden/God’s Presence) flow down to all the families of the earth, honouring the covenant of our first father. This is the dispensation of fire, set to burn and cleanse the world complementary with the flood and that Noahic covenant. And note it was after Noah that Abraham enters the scene, and the angel of the LORD. Jesus describes him as the “other Paraclete”, drawing a natural complementary comparison with His own Self. While I don’t think them equal, the descents & ascents of the two goats would be naturally comparable, complementary and similar.

In which ways do you see the Davidic servants ministry being specially identified near Christ’s in the one hand, while also being typed and related to those of other prophetic figures?

Jesus was sent to the Jews... The doubly cursed least of Israel. They are of such a level as to crucify their own God.

Doubly-cursed, in your opinion. I would rather say they are cursed according to and proportionate with their natural birthright and heritage. Not necessarily on a more/less scale, but equivalent to their blessing. Those specially blessed are held at a different accountability, and the Jews were they who were given the privilege of the ministry of the most high God. Because historically up to that point, they had been the most righteous (or perhaps, least-wicked) of all the twelve tribes. Which is where this Judah-being-least-tribe theory falls apart. The premise is based on that they are especially sinful, because of failing opportunities offered them on account of being the most righteous initially. Which could be said of Lucifer, sure. But also Adam.

From Moses to Jesus, Judah has a much better track record than Ephraim. Which is why neither Ephraim, nor any other tribe even had the chance to crucify their God because they weren’t even righteous enough to still be in the holy land at the time and have the opportunity. You first need to be in the temple, before you even have the agency to defile it.

But what about the Davidic Servant? He will be sent among the Ephraim items (5th order) per Isaiah 28, the doubly blessed greatest tribe of Israel. Yet Isaiah 28 indicates Ephraim is in no state to receive or recognize him, I don't think he will be physically marred by Ephraim. Might could be wrong on that but it the lesser descent aligns to the lesser God being sent among the greatest of Israel... Imho

I think he will be marred by Ephraim not referring necessarily to the church. This is the “other Paraclete” from Jesus. Jesus came to his own, being rejected of the Jews. Do you really not see his endtime counterpart and companion goat as being rejected of the heirs of Joseph?

I am curious on how you think this drunken state will affect Ephraim’s reception of such a figure though. How do you see this playing out?

I mean let's be real. Would Ephraim start changing "crucify him?"

There will be many in the endtime who will say “release unto us Barabbas”.

The Jews were loathe to lose their pseudo-sceptre to Jesus so they hated Him. Will the “rulers” of the earth be quick to submit before the god who’s coming kingdom is of this world?

Edit: sorry if my post seems anti-Ephraim, haha. I’m really not (though plenty and more are), I just disagree with some of your conclusions here because I don’t see them. But I fail to see lots of things.

Isaiah 40:2 Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the Lord’s hand double for all her sins

Isaiah 40 is increjible. I wrote a breakdown somewhere. I'm having serious memory issues with this illness haha. For example I couldn't remember where the above scripture is. Isaiah 40 has like 8 or 9 tiltles of the Davidic Servant including holy spirit.

Jerusalem = Judah

Isaiah 40:9 ¶ O Zion, that bringest good tidings, get thee up into the high mountain; O Jerusalem, that bringest good tidings, lift up thy voice with strength; lift it up, be not afraid; say unto the cities of Judah, Behold you God!

Judah = Judah obviously. But notice how Jerusalem is equated here, which makes sense. The one who dealt the punishment now offers comfort and safety. Her warfare is accomplished.

Behold the Angel of the Lord....the executor of the double punishment. Now he offers comfort.

Notice how zion has the good tidings and brings them to Jerusalem. Behold your God.

Gods justice would be imperfect if the tribe of Judah hadn't done something to deserve its curse. Judah must have done something in the premortal world or in the prior world else where is God's justice. He cannot curse those who haven't cursed themselves.

Isaiah 40 suggests the ten tribes are gathered first. Check this out:

D&C 133
26 And they who are in the north countries shall come in remembrance before the Lord; and their prophets shall hear his voice, and shall no longer stay themselves; and they shall smite the rocks, and the ice shall flow down at their presence.
27 And an highway shall be cast up in the midst of the great deep.
28 Their enemies shall become a prey unto them,
29 And in the barren deserts there shall come forth pools of living water; and the parched ground shall no longer be a thirsty land.
30 And they shall bring forth their rich treasures unto the children of Ephraim, my servants.
31 And the boundaries of the everlasting hills shall tremble at their presence.
32 And there shall they fall down and be crowned with glory, even in Zion, by the hands of the servants of the Lord, even the children of Ephraim.
33 And they shall be filled with songs of everlasting joy.
34 Behold, this is the blessing of the everlasting God upon the tribes of Israel, and the richer blessing upon the head of Ephraim and his fellows.
35 And they also of the tribe of Judah, after their pain, shall be sanctified in holiness before the Lord, to dwell in his presence day and night, forever and ever.


This sequence matches isaiah 40. If you read more of D&C 133 you'll see more of the "Behold your God," theme.

So the ten come to Ephraim who has the double portion as prophecied by Israel.

Then.... Judah is sanctified after their pain. Sanctification implies a comparative need for it in relation to the other eleven tribes. Judah curse is detailed all over the old testament and new and in the Doctrine and covenants. What did they do before coming here I wonder?

Isaiah 40 continued...

Isaiah 40:10 Behold, the Lord God will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.
11 He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young.


The gathering of israel and the rich rewards that are also mentioned in D&C 133. Curious how both isaiah 40 and D&C 133 both refer to Judahs double cursing or greater cursing. I also find it curious they seem to be gathered last in these two chapters. Wouldn't Judah be gathered first... First and last and all that?

I just published a new article titled, "The Discourse on Abbaton"

https://lordoftheseraphim.blogspot.com/ ... baton.html

This article is a complete breakdown of the Apocryphon: "Discourse on Abbaton"

https://thinlyveiled.com/abbaton.htm

This apocryphon is an amazing collective confirmation of so very many things that are unique and wonderful about the Gospel of Jesus Christ as restored through Joseph Smith and about the truth of the hidden servant of Isaiah. Here is a partial list breakdown:

Truths Confirmed by the Discourse on Abbaton

• The Destroyer is the Angel of the Lord
• The hidden aspect of the Angel / Davidic Servant
• The Angel of the Lord is the King of this world
• The Angel of the Lord was hidden even from the Apostles
• The Davidic Link to the Angel of the Lord
• The number 8 in relation to the Angel of the Lord
• Saul is a type of the devil
• Council link to Abraham 3
• Parallel authority - Saul / David - Devil / Mouriel
• Confirms Michael / Gabriel are 1st and 2nd archangels
• Confirms neither Michael nor Gabriel are acting as the “king” of this world.
• Abaddon / King in Revelation 9 is a divine angelic monarchy
• John as one of the two witnesses of Revelation 11

Sadly, this also confirms that John is in fact not the Davidic Servant, but also confirms he's the second witness. He's very close to the Davidic Servant - like second witness close. Perhaps I'll write on that some day, but I believe Aaron dressing his son in the High Priest's robes and the Angel of the Lord dressing Joshua in the book of Zechariah are both types of this ordinance that will take place where the servant ascends and John is clothed in the robes of the High Priest ... his right to rule being next.

Anyway, what an amazing find this was for me personally - and I hope others will find it as amazing, exciting, and awesome as I have. Enjoy!

Part of the testament of Levi...

AND now, my children, I command you: Fear the Lord your God with your whole heart, and walk in simplicity according to all His law.

2 And do ye also teach your children letters, that they may have understanding all their life, reading unceasingly the law of God.

3 For every one that knoweth the law of the Lord shall be honoured, and shall not be a stranger whithersoever he goeth.

4 Yea, many friends shall he gain more than his parents, and many men shall desire to serve him, and to hear the law from his mouth.

5 Work righteousness, therefore, my children, upon the earth, that ye may have it as a treasure in heaven.

6 And sow good things in your souls, that ye may find them in your life.

7 But if ye sow evil things, ye shall reap every trouble and affliction.

8 Get wisdom in the fear of God with diligence; for though there be a leading into captivity, and cities and lands be destroyed, and gold and silver and every possession perish, the wisdom of the wise nought can take away, save the blindness of ungodliness, and the callousness that comes of sin.

9 For if one keep oneself from these evil things, then even among his enemies shall wisdom be a glory to him, and in a strange country a fatherland, and in the midst of foes shall prove a friend.

10 Whosoever teaches noble things and does them, shall be enthroned with kings, as was also Joseph my brother.

11 Therefore, my children, I have learnt that at the end of the ages ye will transgress against the Lord, stretching out hands to wickedness against Him; and to all the Gentiles shall ye become a scorn.

12 For our father Israel is pure from the transgressions of the chief priests [who shall lay their hands upon the Saviour of the world].

13 For as the heaven is purer in the Lord's sight than the earth, so also be ye, the lights of Israel, purer than all the Gentiles.

14 But if ye be darkened through transgressions, what, therefore, will all the Gentiles do living in blindness?

15 Yea, ye shall bring a curse upon our race, because the light of the law which was given for to lighten every man this ye desire to destroy by teaching commandments contrary to the ordinances of God.

16 The offerings of the Lord ye shall rob, and from His portion shall ye steal choice portions, eating them contemptuously with harlots.

17 And out of covetousness ye shall teach the commandments of the Lord, wedded women shall ye pollute, and the virgins of Jerusalem shall ye defile; and with harlots and adulteresses shall ye be joined, and the daughters of the Gentiles shall ye take to wife, purifying them with an unlawful purification; and your union shall be like unto Sodom and Gomorrah,

18 And ye shall be puffed up because of your priesthood, lifting yourselves up against men, and not only so, but also against the commands of God.

19 For ye shall contemn the holy things with jests and laughter.

20 Therefore the temple, which the Lord shall choose, shall be laid waste through your uncleanness, and ye shall be captives throughout all nations.

21 And ye shall be an abomination unto them, and ye shall receive reproach and everlasting shame from the righteous judgement of God.

22 And all who hate you shall rejoice at your destruction.

23 And if you were not to receive mercy through Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, our fathers, not one of our seed should be left upon the earth.

24 And now I have learnt that for seventy weeks ye shall go astray, and profane the priesthood, and pollute the sacrifices.

25 And ye shall make void the law, and set at nought the words of the prophets by evil perverseness.

26 And ye shall persecute righteous men, and hate the godly; the words of the faithful shall ye abhor.

27 And a man who reneweth the law in the power of the Most High, ye shall call a deceiver; and at last ye shall rush upon him to slay him, not knowing his dignity, taking innocent blood through wickedness upon your heads.

28 And your holy places shall be laid waste even to the ground because of him.

29 And ye shall have no place that is clean; but ye shall be among the Gentiles a curse and a dispersion until He shall again visit you, and in pity shall receive you through faith and water.

AND whereas ye have heard concerning the seventy weeks, hear also concerning the priesthood. For in each jubilee there shall be a priesthood.

2 And in the first jubilee, the first who is anointed to the priesthood shall be great, and shall speak to God as to a Father.

3 And his priesthood shall be perfect with the Lord, and in the day of his gladness shall he arise for the salvation of the world.
Joseph Smith?
4 In the second jubilee, he that is anointed shall be conceived in the sorrow of beloved ones; and his priesthood shall be honoured and shall be glorified by all.
Brigham Young?
5 And the third priest shall be taken hold of by sorrow.
John Taylor?
6 And the fourth shall be in pain, because unrighteousness shall gather itself against him exceedingly, and all Israel shall hate each one his neighbour.
Wiford Woodruff?
7 The fifth shall be taken hold of by darkness. Likewise also the sixth and the seventh.
Lorenzo Snow, Joseph F Smith, Heber J Grant?
8 And in the seventh shall, be such pollution as I cannot express before men, for they shall know it who do these things.

9 Therefore shall they be taken captive and become a prey, and their land and their substance shall be destroyed.

10 And in the fifth week they shall return to their desolate country, and shall renew the house of the Lord.

11 And in the seventh week shall become priests, who are idolaters, adulterers, lovers of money, proud, lawless, lascivious, abusers of children and beasts.

12 And after their punishment shall have come from the Lord, the priesthood shall fail.

13 Then shall the Lord raise up a new priest.
The Eighth? Davidical King?
14 And to him all the words of the Lord shall be revealed; and he shall execute a righteous judgement upon the earth for a multitude of days.

15 And his star shall arise in heaven as of a king.

16 Lighting up the light of knowledge as the sun the day, and he shall be magnified in the world.


17 He shall shine forth as the sun on the earth, and shall remove all darkness from under heaven, and there shall be peace in all the earth.

18 The heavens shall exult in his days, and the earth shall be glad, and the clouds shall rejoice;

19 And the knowledge of the Lord shall be poured forth upon the earth, as the water of the seas;

20 And the angels of the glory of the presence of the Lord shall be glad in him.

21 The heavens shall be opened, and from the temple of glory shall come upon him sanctification, with the Father's voice as from Abraham to Isaac.

22 And the glory of the Most High shall be uttered over him, and the spirit of understanding and sanctification shall rest upon him in the water.

23 For he shall give the majesty of the Lord to His sons in truth for evermore;

24 And there shall none succeed him for all generations for ever.

25 And in his priesthood the Gentiles shall be multiplied in knowledge upon the earth, and enlightened through the grace of the Lord. In his priesthood shall sin come to an end, and the lawless shall cease to do evil.

26 And he shall open the gates of paradise, and shall remove the threatening sword against Adam, and he shall give to the saints to eat from the tree of life, and the spirit of holiness shall be on them.

27 And Beliar shall be bound by him, and he shall give power to His children to tread upon the evil spirits.

28 And the Lord shall rejoice in His children, and be well pleased in His beloved ones for ever.

29 Then shall Abraham and Isaac and Jacob exult, and I will be glad, and all the saints shall clothe themselves with joy.

30 And now, my children, ye have heard all; choose, therefore, for yourselves either the light or the darkness, either the law of the Lord or the works of Beliar.

31 And his sons answered him., saying, Before the Lord we will walk according to His law.

32 And their father said unto them, The Lord is witness, and His angels are witnesses, and ye are witnesses, and I am witness, concerning the word of your mouth.

33 And his sons said unto him: We are witnesses.

34 And thus Levi ceased commanding his sons; and he stretched out his feet on the bed, and was gathered to his fathers, after he had lived a hundred and thirty-seven years.

35 And they laid him in a coffin, and afterwards they buried him in Hebron, with I Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

simpleton wrote: ↑June 26th, 2019, 9:07 am AND whereas ye have heard concerning the seventy weeks, hear also concerning the priesthood. For in each jubilee there shall be a priesthood.

2 And in the first jubilee, the first who is anointed to the priesthood shall be great, and shall speak to God as to a Father.

3 And his priesthood shall be perfect with the Lord, and in the day of his gladness shall he arise for the salvation of the world.
Joseph Smith?
4 In the second jubilee, he that is anointed shall be conceived in the sorrow of beloved ones; and his priesthood shall be honoured and shall be glorified by all.
Brigham Young?
5 And the third priest shall be taken hold of by sorrow.
John Taylor?
6 And the fourth shall be in pain, because unrighteousness shall gather itself against him exceedingly, and all Israel shall hate each one his neighbour.
Wiford Woodruff?
7 The fifth shall be taken hold of by darkness. Likewise also the sixth and the seventh.
Lorenzo Snow, Joseph F Smith, Heber J Grant?
8 And in the seventh shall, be such pollution as I cannot express before men, for they shall know it who do these things.

Dude -where do you find this stuff? This is incredible!

Simpleton - I gave props to you in my latest article - but I removed it because I should have asked first. Thank you for yet another amazing find!

I believe the seven angels are the seven archangels or dispensation heads.

Testament of Levi 1:22 In the heaven next to it are the archangels, who minister and make propitiation to the Lord for all the sins of ignorance of the righteous;
24 And in the heaven below this are the angels who bear answers to the angels of the presence of the Lord.


Aha! In verse 24, these are the level six angels or the seraphim of level six form whence comes the order of the Apostles. These have eyes to see and ears to hear which is likely why they bear the "answers" - maybe. But it fits.

So this is interesting from chapter IV. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are considered the patriarchs of, well, Israel. Why not Joseph? The easy answer is his brothers are a part of Israel, but Joseph's is the longest story of Genesis because he is a type of the Davidic Servant imho. He gathers his brothers (other 11 tribes) and saves them, but first he is rejected by the "tribes" of Israel, descends below Egypt as a slave then prisoner and then ascends above Egypt, then saves Israel. So this verse speaks of the heavenly representation which is receiving the fullness of the Priesthood as both Priest and King:

Testament of Levi 4:10 Whosoever teaches noble things and does them, shall be enthroned with kings, as was also Joseph my brother.


Aha ... see! In the same chapter, Levi speaks of Israel's fate in the end times, and tells them of one who they will treat just as Joseph:

Testament of Levi 4:27 And a man who reneweth the law in the power of the Most High, ye shall call a deceiver; and at last ye shall rush upon him to slay him, not knowing his dignity, taking innocent blood through wickedness upon your heads.
28 And your holy places shall be laid waste even to the ground because of him.
29 And ye shall have no place that is clean; but ye shall be among the Gentiles a curse and a dispersion until He shall again visit you, and in pity shall receive you through faith and water.


Being rejected by your people is apparently part of the Davidic Covenant. Even King David was cast out and persecuted by Saul before he took the throne.

Testament of Levi Chapter V

AND whereas ye have heard concerning the seventy weeks, hear also concerning the priesthood. For in each jubilee there shall be a priesthood.

I think Priesthood = Dispensation. Only one who has the fullness of the Priesthood can start a dispensation. BY stated he did not.


2 And in the first jubilee, the first who is anointed to the priesthood shall be great, and shall speak to God as to a father.

3 And his priesthood shall be perfect with the Lord, and in the day of his gladness shall he arise for the salvation of the world.

Adam?


4 In the second jubilee, he that is anointed shall be conceived in the sorrow of beloved ones; and his priesthood shall be honoured and shall be glorified by all.

Could this be Enoch? He was hated. (Moses 6:31)


5 And the third priest shall he taken hold of by sorrow.

Noah & the Flood?

6 And the fourth shall be in pain, because unrighteousness shall gather itself against him exceedingly, and all Israel shall hate each one his neighbour.

Like almost sacrifice him on a lion couch? Israel shall hate each one his neighbor though .... how could that fit into the time from Abraham to ...ah. This could be the neighbors in Canaan as there was certainly some hate there, like when the Israelites duped the natives into circumcising themselves before killing them (Genesis 34.)

7 The fifth shall be taken hold of by darkness. Likewise also the sixth and the seventh.

I think this is more representative of the lower levels of mankind, maybe. Peter and Joseph Smith were certainly taken hold by darkness and martyred. Moses was unable to enter the promised land. Not a perfect fit, but ... I do think these are most likely the seven dispensation heads. That would fit with my interpretation of Discourse on Abbaton as well....Seven men who are both priests and kings. The eighth is the newbie.

8 And in the seventh shall, be such pollution as I cannot express before men, for they shall know it who do these things.

This is interesting to me because in 3 Enoch there are 7 heavens and 7 halls that are higher than the 7 heavens.

9 Therefore shall they be taken captive and become a prey, and their land and their substance shall be destroyed.

10 And in the fifth week they shall return to their desolate country, and shall renew the house of the Lord.

11 And in the seventh week shall become priests, who are idolaters, adulterers, lovers of money, proud, lawless, lascivious, abusers of children and beasts.

12 And after their punishment shall have come from the Lord, the priesthood shall fail.

I started a thread recently about whether we could lose the Melchizedek Priesthood. John the Baptist promised the Aaronic Priesthood would never again leave the Earth. While restoring the Melchizedek Priesthood, Peter, James, and John said....well we don't know what they said do we?


13 Then shall the Lord raise up a new priest.

14 And to him all the words of the Lord shall be revealed; and he shall execute a righteous judgement upon the earth for a multitude of days.

15 And his star shall arise in heaven as of a king.

Boomshakalaka. A new priest and king. Hrm.... what a coincidence! This is why this full quote below is necessary to know the context of the Latter-day David (usually just the last half is quoted.) The context is to finish what King David started - to receive the fullness of the Priesthood by becoming both King and Priest.

Although David was a king, he never did obtain the spirit and power of Elijah and the fullness of the Priesthood; and the Priesthood that he received, and the throne and kingdom of David is to be taken from him and given to another by the name of David in the last days, raised up out of his lineage. ~ Joseph Smith

And where have we heard righteousness and judgement in regards to the Davidic Servant? Oh that's right, all over Isaiah and beyond.


16 Lighting up the light of knowledge as the sun the day, and he shall be magnified in the world.

This fits with the Davidic Servant prophecies - see Isaiah 28 for starters. He shows up with knowledge, and how is he received? Badly.

17 He shall shine forth as the sun on the earth, and shall remove all darkness from under heaven, and there shall be peace in all the earth.

Isaiah 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.


18 The heavens shall exult in his days, and the earth shall be glad, and the clouds shall rejoice;

Who is this that comes in the clouds?


19 And the knowledge of the Lord shall be poured forth upon the earth, as the water of the seas;

20 And the angels of the glory of the presence of the Lord shall be glad in him.

21 The heavens shall be opened, and from the temple of glory shall come upon him sanctification, with the Father's voice as from Abraham to Isaac.

Verse 21 is the fulfillment of Yom Kippur - the receiving of the fullness of the Priesthood is receiving the name of the Father and the new name of the Son (Revelation 3:12.) This fulfillment is also in Revelation 11 - right after the two witnesses seal their testimonies and are risen, immediately are the kingdoms of this world declared to be the kingdom of our Lord and his Christ....and then:

Revelation 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.



22 And the glory of the Most High shall be uttered over him, and the spirit of understanding and sanctification shall rest upon him in the water.

23 For he shall give the majesty of the Lord to His sons in truth for evermore;

Verse 22 is a reference to the seven "spirits" of the Rod of Isaiah 11, but sanctification is new. That's the role of the Holy Ghost. Could they be the same person??? EUREKA


Seriously simpleton - You've brought much joy to me in the last few weeks due to the Discourse on Abbaton alone - and now you gift me with this! Sincere, heartfelt thanks.

Edit:

Super interesting read on the background of the Testament of Levi - the Apocalypse is reinforced by the Dead Sea Scrolls singularly among the 12 testaments of the sons of Jacob.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testament ... Patriarchs

Alaris, you say (and many others say) that Joseph of Egypt is a type and shadow of Jesus. I think there are usually around 8 correlations given for that belief. Several decades ago I did a study to count the correlations between Joseph of Egypt and the antichrist. I think I remember the count was 17. That is if you are brave enough to do an honest comparison.