The Davidic Servant is The Holy Ghost

[righteousrepublic]

The Davidic King is not the Holy Ghost.

David, Prophetic Figure of Last Days

See this page in the original 1992 publication. https://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/digital/c ... oM/id/5659

See also: https://eom.byu.edu/index.php/David,_Pr ... _Last_Days

Author: Ludlow, Victor L.

King David (c. 1000 B.C.) remains today one of the most renowned Old Testament figures. His personality, spiritual sensitivity, creative abilities, military victories, and leadership carried him to the pinnacle of popularity. He had the potential to become an ideal king, but his kingship deteriorated after his adultery with Bathsheba and his involvement in Uriah's death. However, prophecy states that a model ruler in the last days will be "raised up" from David's lineage.

The Prophet Joseph Smith taught that "the throne and kingdom of David is to be taken from him and given to another by the name of David in the last days, raised up out of his lineage" (TPJS, p. 339). Elder Orson Hyde, in his dedicatory prayer on the Mount of Olives, October 24, 1841, prophesied that the Jews would return to Jerusalem and that in time a leader called David, "even a descendant from the loins of ancient David, [would] be their king" (HC 4:457).

This predicted figure corresponds to a promised messianic servant. Hosea, speaking shortly before the loss of northern Israel, foretold that Israelites would return in the latter days "and seek the LORD their God, and David their king" (Hosea 3:5). Jeremiah prophesied of Israel and Judah's future righteousness, and of "David their king, whom I [the LORD] will raise up unto them" (Jer. 30:9; cf. 23:5; 33:15-22). And in Ezekiel it is written, "And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd. And I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them" (Ezek. 34:23-24; cf. also 44:1-3).

Speaking to Joseph Smith, the angel Moroni 2 cited Old Testament passages telling of significant figures who would be involved with Christ's millennial reign (JS-H 1:40). As prophesied in Isaiah, it appears that two persons are spoken of, a "rod" and a "root" (11:1, 10)-one a leader "on whom there is laid much power," the other a person with special priesthood keys (D&C 113:3-6). These leaders are believed by some to be two forerunners, spoken of in rabbinic literature, one from Joseph and one from Judah (Encyclopedia Judaica, 11:1411).

Although noble attributes and spiritual powers characterize both of these messianic servants, Jesus Christ exemplifies these qualities perfectly (D&C 113:1-2). Jesus is the exemplar prophet, priest, and king. He identified himself as the prophet "like unto Moses" (Deut. 18:15; Acts 3:22-23; 3 Ne. 20:23) and was a high priest after the order of Melchizedek (Heb. 5:9-10;7:15-22). Jesus is King of Kings (Rev. 19:16), greater than all other leaders of all time. Some see in Jesus Christ the complete fulfillment of the prophecy of a future David. Others feel that, while the titles and functions of the future Davidic king could apply to Jesus, there will also be another righteous king by the name of David in the last days, a leader from the loins of David (and thus of Judah). VICTOR L. LUDLOW

David, Prophetic Figure of Last Days
Digital Publisher Harold B. Lee Library, Brigham Young University
Collection name Encyclopedia of Mormonism; Twentieth Century Mormon Publications
Copyright & permissions http://lib.byu.edu/about/copyright/generic.php
Copyright status/owner Copyright 1992 Macmillan Publishing Company [Purchased by Gale Group in 1999]; Copyright 2001 Brigham Young University [copyright transferred to BYU in 2001]
Physical Description page 360-361
Page Numbers page 360; page 361
Index Terms David, prophetic figure of last days; Prophet, prophets: David, prophetic figure of last days; Smith, Joseph: David, prophetic figure of last days; Hyde, Orson: David, prophetic figure of last days; Jeremiah, prophecies of; Jesus Christ: David, prophetic figure of last days; Jews: David, prophetic figure of last days;

The Davidic Servant is not the Holy Ghost.

[abijah]

The Davidic King is not the Holy Ghost.

David, Prophetic Figure of Last Days

See this page in the original 1992 publication. https://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/digital/c ... oM/id/5659

See also: https://eom.byu.edu/index.php/David,_Pr ... _Last_Days

Author: Ludlow, Victor L.

King David (c. 1000 B.C.) remains today one of the most renowned Old Testament figures. His personality, spiritual sensitivity, creative abilities, military victories, and leadership carried him to the pinnacle of popularity. He had the potential to become an ideal king, but his kingship deteriorated after his adultery with Bathsheba and his involvement in Uriah's death. However, prophecy states that a model ruler in the last days will be "raised up" from David's lineage.

The Prophet Joseph Smith taught that "the throne and kingdom of David is to be taken from him and given to another by the name of David in the last days, raised up out of his lineage" (TPJS, p. 339). Elder Orson Hyde, in his dedicatory prayer on the Mount of Olives, October 24, 1841, prophesied that the Jews would return to Jerusalem and that in time a leader called David, "even a descendant from the loins of ancient David, [would] be their king" (HC 4:457).

This predicted figure corresponds to a promised messianic servant. Hosea, speaking shortly before the loss of northern Israel, foretold that Israelites would return in the latter days "and seek the LORD their God, and David their king" (Hosea 3:5). Jeremiah prophesied of Israel and Judah's future righteousness, and of "David their king, whom I [the LORD] will raise up unto them" (Jer. 30:9; cf. 23:5; 33:15-22). And in Ezekiel it is written, "And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd. And I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them" (Ezek. 34:23-24; cf. also 44:1-3).

Speaking to Joseph Smith, the angel Moroni 2 cited Old Testament passages telling of significant figures who would be involved with Christ's millennial reign (JS-H 1:40). As prophesied in Isaiah, it appears that two persons are spoken of, a "rod" and a "root" (11:1, 10)-one a leader "on whom there is laid much power," the other a person with special priesthood keys (D&C 113:3-6). These leaders are believed by some to be two forerunners, spoken of in rabbinic literature, one from Joseph and one from Judah (Encyclopedia Judaica, 11:1411).

Although noble attributes and spiritual powers characterize both of these messianic servants, Jesus Christ exemplifies these qualities perfectly (D&C 113:1-2). Jesus is the exemplar prophet, priest, and king. He identified himself as the prophet "like unto Moses" (Deut. 18:15; Acts 3:22-23; 3 Ne. 20:23) and was a high priest after the order of Melchizedek (Heb. 5:9-10;7:15-22). Jesus is King of Kings (Rev. 19:16), greater than all other leaders of all time. Some see in Jesus Christ the complete fulfillment of the prophecy of a future David. Others feel that, while the titles and functions of the future Davidic king could apply to Jesus, there will also be another righteous king by the name of David in the last days, a leader from the loins of David (and thus of Judah). VICTOR L. LUDLOW

David, Prophetic Figure of Last Days
Digital Publisher Harold B. Lee Library, Brigham Young University
Collection name Encyclopedia of Mormonism; Twentieth Century Mormon Publications
Copyright & permissions http://lib.byu.edu/about/copyright/generic.php
Copyright status/owner Copyright 1992 Macmillan Publishing Company [Purchased by Gale Group in 1999]; Copyright 2001 Brigham Young University [copyright transferred to BYU in 2001]
Physical Description page 360-361
Page Numbers page 360; page 361
Index Terms David, prophetic figure of last days; Prophet, prophets: David, prophetic figure of last days; Smith, Joseph: David, prophetic figure of last days; Hyde, Orson: David, prophetic figure of last days; Jeremiah, prophecies of; Jesus Christ: David, prophetic figure of last days; Jews: David, prophetic figure of last days;

The Davidic Servant is not the Holy Ghost.

Well I’ll be darned RR, you convinced me. Your logic is like a chainsaw to my hatchet. Well played sir.

[eddie]

so Alaris
you seem to be an avid believer in the end-time servant.
How is that ? you, being a TBM, always defending the church and it's leaders,
and YOU ? - you still believe in an end-time servant !? - when the church doesn't !
(probably because he - "a mighty and strong one" is coming to condemn them and to set in order the house of God - (which will not be our current church)
before the Savior's return.)

This is an excellent question. I think some TBMs immediately assume I must be against the brethren if I believe in the Davidic Servant, especially when they find out I don't think he will necessarily come from the 15 apostles. First, let me respond by saying I have prayed about President Nelson and have received a witness and additional witnesses since the initial. He is the prophet of the Lord. Can there be more than one prophet at at time? Of course - look at an Old Testament timeline. Look at D&C 133 - the ten tribes have their prophets, plural. Look at Lehi / Nephi - did Jeremiah even know them at all? They came from the same city. The Lord's ways are not our ways - That's it! The Lord's way is how He wants His church conducted. There is only 1 Prophet who can direct this work and he conducts it in the manner Jesus Christ has deemed correct and reveals to him. Teaching doctrine that is incorrect needs to be addressed, and thats what is happening here. believing the two witnesses must be two of our own apostles is extremely narrow minded imho. Well maybe not extremely - but our own scriptures show patterns and prophecies that suggest otherwise.

LDS.org
Isaiah 28
1 Woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of Ephraim, whose glorious beauty is a fading flower, which are on the head of the fat valleys of them that are overcome with wine!

2 Behold, the Lord hath a mighty and strong one, which as a tempest of hail and a destroying storm, as a flood of mighty waters overflowing, shall cast down to the earth with the hand.

3 The crown of pride, the drunkards of Ephraim, shall be trodden under feet:

Ephraim does not equal Ephraim's leaders. Though priests etc. are mentioned in this chapter and leaders, consider that all of Ephraim is the leadership of Israel. I mean, look at the reactions in this thread! "I haven't prayed about this, studied it, asked God who the Holy Ghost is, yet somehow it's OK for me to deride you because I somehow know what you're saying can't be true." Is that coming from a position of:

A. Pride
B. Humility

Oh, I almost forgot: "I haven't even prayed if I should lambast folks who believe the Holy Ghost is the Davidic Servant. Somehow I know this behavior is acceptable!"

I'm not lumping you in there I AM, but the crown of pride of Eprhaim in Isaiah 28 is the reaction of Ephraim at large when the Davidic Servant shows up. D&C 133 indicates Ephraim will eventually come around, but I'm thinking this will sift some folks. Imagine if the Apostles split - some stick to traditional TBMing and some elect to align with the King of ALL of Israel, including Ephraim. I love this question and I very glad you asked it.

Show me ANYWHERE where any authority of the church has even touched on it,
you won't find it, because they don't believe in a servant, a prophet that is coming - whether he be Christ or someone else. (no wonder why)
just try mentioning it in church - about an end-time servant that is to come, a prophet, and see how far you get, you'll probably get exed., like everyone else has that has brought up scriptures to show the truth of things.
If this prophets mission - his coming is so important -
WHY have we not heard any church authority speak about it.
(more hiding - hiding the truth and being deceived ? )

Ahhhhh yes! Great question! First let me answer thusly:

1 Nephi 14:27 And I, Nephi, heard and bear record, that the name of the apostle of the Lamb was John, according to the word of the angel.
28 And behold, I, Nephi, am forbidden that I should write the remainder of the things which I saw and heard; wherefore the things which I have written sufficeth me; and I have written but a small part of the things which I saw.

MAN what contextual coindences! I mean Nephi mentions John and the angel and then says he's forbidden to share more! That's probably the only clues that MMP and the Servant (two closely related doctrines) are forbidden topics right?

Judges 13:18 And the angel of the Lord said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret?

I don't need to quote you the many indications that the servant is hidden, but what about this doctrine of how one becomes a God. As Gileadi states beautifully, the servant transitions from being a conditional servant to unconditional inheritor. In other words, he is transitioning from manhood to Godhood. Is there indication that this is also hidden from us? Yea, verily. Read D&C 93:1-20 particularly verses 18 and 20. Compare 20 to how the Son received a fullness. The Davidic Servant is a key critical component in answering that question.

Ether 13:11 And then also cometh the Jerusalem of old; and the inhabitants thereof, blessed are they, for they have been washed in the blood of the Lamb; and they are they who were scattered and gathered in from the four quarters of the earth, and from the north countries, and are partakers of the fulfilling of the covenant which God made with their father, Abraham.

12 And when these things come, bringeth to pass the scripture which saith, there are they who were first, who shall be last; and there are they who were last, who shall be first.

13 And I was about to write more, but I am forbidden; but great and marvelous were the prophecies of Ether; but they esteemed him as naught, and cast him out; and he hid himself in the cavity of a rock by day, and by night he went forth viewing the things which should come upon the people.


Might those hidden things pertain to the servant who fulfills the Abrahamic Covenant by gathering Israel, restoring them to their lands, and establishing an everlasting kingdom? Maybe?

1 Enoch 61:10. Then shall the kings, the princes, and all who possess the earth, glorify him who has dominion over all things, him who was concealed; for from the beginning the Son of man existed in secret, whom the Most High preserved in the presence of his power, and revealed to the elect.

"Son of Man" is the elect one who is the Rod of Jesse - (I've made the connection here) who is the Davidic Servant. He is concealed since the foundation of the world. Isaiah reinforces this fact - Jesus quotes Isaiah reinforcing this fact. What does this have to do with your question? Circle back to my witness at the beginning. Let's say you know President Nelson is a prophet. How can these facts be synthesized? Very easily. For the prophets are appendages of the body of Christ. He is in charge. Whether he reveals to them this mystery or not - does it matter? Is that a prerequisite to being a servant of Christ? I believe most, if not all of them know, but I'll get into that in a minute.

interesting what the next few verses say.
lets let Gileadi - his translation speak this time.

7 These too have indulged in wine
and are giddy with strong drink:
priests and prophets have gone astray through liquor.
They are intoxicated with wine
and stagger because of strong drink;
they err as seers, they blunder in their decisions.
8 For all tables are filled with vomit;
no spot is without excrement.

As the political and ecclesiastical leaderships of Jehovah’s people always appear on a par (Isaiah 3:2-4; 9:14-16; 24:2), so Ephraim’s “fat proud ones” (vv 1, 4) include its “priests,” “prophets,” and “seers” (Isaiah 56:10-12). Intoxicated with the wine of self-deception (v 15), they “stray,” “err,” and “blunder” in their policies.
Instead of obtaining revelation from Jehovah (vv 9, 14, 16, 26, 29), they water down his word until it is ineffectual in empowering his people (vv 10-13; Isaiah 32:6).
The best their spiritual feasts offer is “vomit”—partly digested food regurgitated for Jehovah’s people to consume.

Well we can agree on the political leadership. Mitt Romney ... Harry Reid I believe you have touched on likely why Gileadi was excommunicated, although that was never revealed. The commentary on Isaiah 28 ... sheesh! Yet, does it have to apply to the leaderrship today? Have we had apostles that perhaps ventured beyond their purview speaking authoritatively about things that haven't been revealed yet? The Joseph Fielding Smith quote about avoiding speculation ... fortunately that's not the only evidence of his perhaps overextending his purview. The Doctrines of Salvation were published decades ago ... likely way before the servant's birth. Perhaps the Lord just didn't reveal to apostle JFS ... or perhaps Isaiah 28. I'd like to think Isaiah 28 has already been fulfilled if it pertains to our leadership. We've certainly had our share of pride among our leaders tracing back to the foundation (read rough stone rolling.) Dealing with the pride of the leadership was perhaps one of Joseph Smith's greatest obstacle.

------------------
The Lord's servant
D&C 85

7 And it shall come to pass that I, the Lord God, will send one mighty and strong, holding the scepter of power in his hand, clothed with light for a covering, whose mouth shall utter words, eternal words; while his bowels shall be a fountain of truth, to set in order the house of God, and to arrange by lot the inheritances of the saints whose names are found, and the names of their fathers, and of their children, enrolled in the book of the law of God;

"to set in order" ?
I guess - like all the scriptures indicate, that that must mean that the church is
"out of order" !

OK, so here's how and why I believe at the very least the first presidency knows about the servant. Their talks over the last several years seemed to contain indication of their alluding ... Erying's talk about the sons of thunder was a big confirmation to me that he was speaking to sons of the thunder (7 thunders in revelation = 7 archangels) - way too much to explain. Ucthdorf had a great talk in that same conference that seemed like alluding to these events that are about to come to pass. But what about President Nelson?

Before you joined these forums (iirc) I posted a LOT about the Revelation 12 sign on 9/23. I still believe this was a sign of the times - that the birth of the man child (Davidic Servant) and the Kingdom of God is upon us. Of course the birth is not a physical birth but a spiritual birth into the order of Godhood. Anyway, I posted quite a bit about how I believed this signaled a change from the time of the gentiles to the Gathering of Israel. I was mocked incessantly, ridiculed, etc. you know the drill. ~ 6 months later President & Sister Nelson host an amazing youth conference where he tells the youth the most important mission they face is the Gathering of Israel! Coincidence? (Guess how many apologies flooded in at that point (hint: Isaiah 28.)) To someone who didn't already have a witness of President Nelson, yes that's a coincidence maybe. To someone who did have a testimony of President Nelson already (me,) the spirit touched me again after some suffering for my beliefs (yes folks - the people who write in these forums are real people with real feelings.)

OK - then the following conference (April 2018) President Nelson says this:

Our Savior and Redeemer, Jesus Christ, will perform some of His mightiest works between now and when He comes again. We will see miraculous indications that God the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ, preside over this Church in majesty and glory. But in coming days, it will not be possible to survive spiritually without the guiding, directing, comforting, and constant influence of the Holy Ghost.

Now, to most I'm sure that reads with one fewer layer than it does me. However, I believe President Nelson knows what's coming - Sister Nelson gave some indication to this as well - something about wishing she could share everything she knows just by being in close proximity to the Prophet. If you knew, wouldn't you want to share? Well you do know and you do. And so do I. And in that we see eye to eye.

Why am I permitted to share what I know? I can attest that I am indeed permitted to share and I feel it now in my bosom. Perhaps if I were in President Nelson's shoes (role & calling) I wouldn't be permitted. The Lord reveals to whom He will, how He will, and when He will. I am not alone in this witness as several others have chimed in here despite the tactics of Saul Alynski of isolation and demonization that have been employed against me here in recent pages. God is revealing this truth to Ephraim.... perhaps this one comes from the bottom up precisely due to this truth here:

Matthew 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

However the end times unfold, the proud will likely be sifted first. Only those who are willing to be wrong can learn what is right and true imho - Are you willing to be wrong about President Nelson? He is the Lord's prophet and presides over His church. I don't know what will happen with the church returns to the wilderness and the Kingdom is birthed, but I would think belonging to the Lord's church would be better than not. I challenge you my friend to consider you may be wrong about President Nelson. Get on your knees in humility and ask God if President Nelson is the Lord's prophet.

EDIT: I forgot to address your question about D&C 85:7 and the OMAS who sets in order the house of God. First, we have to define "House of God." Is that Ephraim or Israel? See what I mean? Is Israel in order right now? Nope.

But let's take a look at Ephraim. Isaiah 28 does prophesy what happens when the servant arrives on scene. What indications do we have that the "crown of pride" may be or become a problem in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Well, there's that book that was compiled and written for us called, "The Book of Mormon" that includes something known as "The Pride Cycle" that was given to us as a key to help us recognize our awful state when pride creeps in.

I've lived all over the Phoenix metropolis. Some wards have a strong spiritual vibe than others. The rural wards are by far the strongest spiritually - great kids, hard working. I'm now in a suburban ward and the Priests act like unruly children. The fathers are nowhere to be seen while the kids are monkeying around. Envying and strife? Well look no further than LDSFF haha!

In sum though, there are absolutely righteous, humble saints throughout the church. Even my current ward with its issues is full of good people. Are there issues of pride throughout Ephraim? Absolutely. My sister's ward might as well be a fashion show, and the Book of Mormon includes the costly apparel as an indicator as well.

[Durzan]

so Alaris
you seem to be an avid believer in the end-time servant.
How is that ? you, being a TBM, always defending the church and it's leaders,
and YOU ? - you still believe in an end-time servant !? - when the church doesn't !
(probably because he - "a mighty and strong one" is coming to condemn them and to set in order the house of God - (which will not be our current church)
before the Savior's return.)

This is an excellent question. I think some TBMs immediately assume I must be against the brethren if I believe in the Davidic Servant, especially when they find out I don't think he will necessarily come from the 15 apostles. First, let me respond by saying I have prayed about President Nelson and have received a witness and additional witnesses since the initial. He is the prophet of the Lord. Can there be more than one prophet at at time? Of course - look at an Old Testament timeline. Look at D&C 133 - the ten tribes have their prophets, plural. Look at Lehi / Nephi - did Jeremiah even know them at all? They came from the same city. The Lord's ways are not our ways - That's it! The Lord's way is how He wants His church conducted. There is only 1 Prophet who can direct this work and he conducts it in the manner Jesus Christ has deemed correct and reveals to him. Teaching doctrine that is incorrect needs to be addressed, and thats what is happening here. believing the two witnesses must be two of our own apostles is extremely narrow minded imho. Well maybe not extremely - but our own scriptures show patterns and prophecies that suggest otherwise.

LDS.org
Isaiah 28
1 Woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of Ephraim, whose glorious beauty is a fading flower, which are on the head of the fat valleys of them that are overcome with wine!

2 Behold, the Lord hath a mighty and strong one, which as a tempest of hail and a destroying storm, as a flood of mighty waters overflowing, shall cast down to the earth with the hand.

3 The crown of pride, the drunkards of Ephraim, shall be trodden under feet:

Ephraim does not equal Ephraim's leaders. Though priests etc. are mentioned in this chapter and leaders, consider that all of Ephraim is the leadership of Israel. I mean, look at the reactions in this thread! "I haven't prayed about this, studied it, asked God who the Holy Ghost is, yet somehow it's OK for me to deride you because I somehow know what you're saying can't be true." Is that coming from a position of:

A. Pride
B. Humility

Oh, I almost forgot: "I haven't even prayed if I should lambast folks who believe the Holy Ghost is the Davidic Servant. Somehow I know this behavior is acceptable!"

I'm not lumping you in there I AM, but the crown of pride of Eprhaim in Isaiah 28 is the reaction of Ephraim at large when the Davidic Servant shows up. D&C 133 indicates Ephraim will eventually come around, but I'm thinking this will sift some folks. Imagine if the Apostles split - some stick to traditional TBMing and some elect to align with the King of ALL of Israel, including Ephraim. I love this question and I very glad you asked it.

Show me ANYWHERE where any authority of the church has even touched on it,
you won't find it, because they don't believe in a servant, a prophet that is coming - whether he be Christ or someone else. (no wonder why)
just try mentioning it in church - about an end-time servant that is to come, a prophet, and see how far you get, you'll probably get exed., like everyone else has that has brought up scriptures to show the truth of things.
If this prophets mission - his coming is so important -
WHY have we not heard any church authority speak about it.
(more hiding - hiding the truth and being deceived ? )

Ahhhhh yes! Great question! First let me answer thusly:

1 Nephi 14:27 And I, Nephi, heard and bear record, that the name of the apostle of the Lamb was John, according to the word of the angel.
28 And behold, I, Nephi, am forbidden that I should write the remainder of the things which I saw and heard; wherefore the things which I have written sufficeth me; and I have written but a small part of the things which I saw.

MAN what contextual coindences! I mean Nephi mentions John and the angel and then says he's forbidden to share more! That's probably the only clues that MMP and the Servant (two closely related doctrines) are forbidden topics right?

Judges 13:18 And the angel of the Lord said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret?

I don't need to quote you the many indications that the servant is hidden, but what about this doctrine of how one becomes a God. As Gileadi states beautifully, the servant transitions from being a conditional servant to unconditional inheritor. In other words, he is transitioning from manhood to Godhood. Is there indication that this is also hidden from us? Yea, verily. Read D&C 93:1-20 particularly verses 18 and 20. Compare 20 to how the Son received a fullness. The Davidic Servant is a key critical component in answering that question.

Ether 13:11 And then also cometh the Jerusalem of old; and the inhabitants thereof, blessed are they, for they have been washed in the blood of the Lamb; and they are they who were scattered and gathered in from the four quarters of the earth, and from the north countries, and are partakers of the fulfilling of the covenant which God made with their father, Abraham.

12 And when these things come, bringeth to pass the scripture which saith, there are they who were first, who shall be last; and there are they who were last, who shall be first.

13 And I was about to write more, but I am forbidden; but great and marvelous were the prophecies of Ether; but they esteemed him as naught, and cast him out; and he hid himself in the cavity of a rock by day, and by night he went forth viewing the things which should come upon the people.


Might those hidden things pertain to the servant who fulfills the Abrahamic Covenant by gathering Israel, restoring them to their lands, and establishing an everlasting kingdom? Maybe?

1 Enoch 61:10. Then shall the kings, the princes, and all who possess the earth, glorify him who has dominion over all things, him who was concealed; for from the beginning the Son of man existed in secret, whom the Most High preserved in the presence of his power, and revealed to the elect.

"Son of Man" is the elect one who is the Rod of Jesse - (I've made the connection here) who is the Davidic Servant. He is concealed since the foundation of the world. Isaiah reinforces this fact - Jesus quotes Isaiah reinforcing this fact. What does this have to do with your question? Circle back to my witness at the beginning. Let's say you know President Nelson is a prophet. How can these facts be synthesized? Very easily. For the prophets are appendages of the body of Christ. He is in charge. Whether he reveals to them this mystery or not - does it matter? Is that a prerequisite to being a servant of Christ? I believe most, if not all of them know, but I'll get into that in a minute.

interesting what the next few verses say.
lets let Gileadi - his translation speak this time.

7 These too have indulged in wine
and are giddy with strong drink:
priests and prophets have gone astray through liquor.
They are intoxicated with wine
and stagger because of strong drink;
they err as seers, they blunder in their decisions.
8 For all tables are filled with vomit;
no spot is without excrement.

As the political and ecclesiastical leaderships of Jehovah’s people always appear on a par (Isaiah 3:2-4; 9:14-16; 24:2), so Ephraim’s “fat proud ones” (vv 1, 4) include its “priests,” “prophets,” and “seers” (Isaiah 56:10-12). Intoxicated with the wine of self-deception (v 15), they “stray,” “err,” and “blunder” in their policies.
Instead of obtaining revelation from Jehovah (vv 9, 14, 16, 26, 29), they water down his word until it is ineffectual in empowering his people (vv 10-13; Isaiah 32:6).
The best their spiritual feasts offer is “vomit”—partly digested food regurgitated for Jehovah’s people to consume.

Well we can agree on the political leadership. Mitt Romney ... Harry Reid I believe you have touched on likely why Gileadi was excommunicated, although that was never revealed. The commentary on Isaiah 28 ... sheesh! Yet, does it have to apply to the leaderrship today? Have we had apostles that perhaps ventured beyond their purview speaking authoritatively about things that haven't been revealed yet? The Joseph Fielding Smith quote about avoiding speculation ... fortunately that's not the only evidence of his perhaps overextending his purview. The Doctrines of Salvation were published decades ago ... likely way before the servant's birth. Perhaps the Lord just didn't reveal to apostle JFS ... or perhaps Isaiah 28. I'd like to think Isaiah 28 has already been fulfilled if it pertains to our leadership. We've certainly had our share of pride among our leaders tracing back to the foundation (read rough stone rolling.) Dealing with the pride of the leadership was perhaps one of Joseph Smith's greatest obstacle.

------------------
The Lord's servant
D&C 85

7 And it shall come to pass that I, the Lord God, will send one mighty and strong, holding the scepter of power in his hand, clothed with light for a covering, whose mouth shall utter words, eternal words; while his bowels shall be a fountain of truth, to set in order the house of God, and to arrange by lot the inheritances of the saints whose names are found, and the names of their fathers, and of their children, enrolled in the book of the law of God;

"to set in order" ?
I guess - like all the scriptures indicate, that that must mean that the church is
"out of order" !

OK, so here's how and why I believe at the very least the first presidency knows about the servant. Their talks over the last several years seemed to contain indication of their alluding ... Erying's talk about the sons of thunder was a big confirmation to me that he was speaking to sons of the thunder (7 thunders in revelation = 7 archangels) - way too much to explain. Ucthdorf had a great talk in that same conference that seemed like alluding to these events that are about to come to pass. But what about President Nelson?

Before you joined these forums (iirc) I posted a LOT about the Revelation 12 sign on 9/23. I still believe this was a sign of the times - that the birth of the man child (Davidic Servant) and the Kingdom of God is upon us. Of course the birth is not a physical birth but a spiritual birth into the order of Godhood. Anyway, I posted quite a bit about how I believed this signaled a change from the time of the gentiles to the Gathering of Israel. I was mocked incessantly, ridiculed, etc. you know the drill. ~ 6 months later President & Sister Nelson host an amazing youth conference where he tells the youth the most important mission they face is the Gathering of Israel! Coincidence? (Guess how many apologies flooded in at that point (hint: Isaiah 28.)) To someone who didn't already have a witness of President Nelson, yes that's a coincidence maybe. To someone who did have a testimony of President Nelson already (me,) the spirit touched me again after some suffering for my beliefs (yes folks - the people who write in these forums are real people with real feelings.)

OK - then the following conference (April 2018) President Nelson says this:

Our Savior and Redeemer, Jesus Christ, will perform some of His mightiest works between now and when He comes again. We will see miraculous indications that God the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ, preside over this Church in majesty and glory. But in coming days, it will not be possible to survive spiritually without the guiding, directing, comforting, and constant influence of the Holy Ghost.

Now, to most I'm sure that reads with one fewer layer than it does me. However, I believe President Nelson knows what's coming - Sister Nelson gave some indication to this as well - something about wishing she could share everything she knows just by being in close proximity to the Prophet. If you knew, wouldn't you want to share? Well you do know and you do. And so do I. And in that we see eye to eye.

Why am I permitted to share what I know? I can attest that I am indeed permitted to share and I feel it now in my bosom. Perhaps if I were in President Nelson's shoes (role & calling) I wouldn't be permitted. The Lord reveals to whom He will, how He will, and when He will. I am not alone in this witness as several others have chimed in here despite the tactics of Saul Alynski of isolation and demonization that have been employed against me here in recent pages. God is revealing this truth to Ephraim.... perhaps this one comes from the bottom up precisely due to this truth here:

Matthew 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

However the end times unfold, the proud will likely be sifted first. Only those who are willing to be wrong can learn what is right and true imho - Are you willing to be wrong about President Nelson? He is the Lord's prophet and presides over His church. I don't know what will happen with the church returns to the wilderness and the Kingdom is birthed, but I would think belonging to the Lord's church would be better than not. I challenge you my friend to consider you may be wrong about President Nelson. Get on your knees in humility and ask God if President Nelson is the Lord's prophet.

EDIT: I forgot to address your question about D&C 85:7 and the OMAS who sets in order the house of God. First, we have to define "House of God." Is that Ephraim or Israel? See what I mean? Is Israel in order right now? Nope.

But let's take a look at Ephraim. Isaiah 28 does prophesy what happens when the servant arrives on scene. What indications do we have that the "crown of pride" may be or become a problem in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Well, there's that book that was compiled and written for us called, "The Book of Mormon" that includes something known as "The Pride Cycle" that was given to us as a key to help us recognize our awful state when pride creeps in.

I've lived all over the Phoenix metropolis. Some wards have a strong spiritual vibe than others. The rural wards are by far the strongest spiritually - great kids, hard working. I'm now in a suburban ward and the Priests act like unruly children. The fathers are nowhere to be seen while the kids are monkeying around. Envying and strife? Well look no further than LDSFF haha!

In sum though, there are absolutely righteous, humble saints throughout the church. Even my current ward with its issues is full of good people. Are there issues of pride throughout Ephraim? Absolutely. My sister's ward might as well be a fashion show, and the Book of Mormon includes the costly apparel as an indicator as well.

Hey eddie, Alaris went on to testify of President Nelson towards the end of his long post. Did you read that part? Just asking.

[I AM]

thanks Alaris for your views and theories
but I just can't be pulled down that rabbit hole as easy
as some of your other believers.
As I've said before, you have a way of taking scripture
and changing it to agree with what you personally believe in, and not what
the scriptures are actually saying.
“People say they love truth, but in reality they want to believe that which they love is true.” –Robert J. Ringer

I'm really wasting my time here, because I know what the scriptures say,
and it's not what you're saying they say.
but to each his own I guess.
You can continue in your theories, and what YOU THINK the scriptures say,
but I just don't have the heart - to continue because I know how you think and believe by the things you have said, but I do not see things and believe as you do.

Isaiah and Jesus Christ Himself speaks of our apostasy,
and I have shown this through scriptures in so many of my posts.
But of course members that would rather put their trust in church leaders - men and their precepts instead of our scriptures and the prophets in them, and in the words of Jesus Christ Himself, can't see this.
I will tell you what I have a testimony in - not because it's what I want to believe -
but because the word of God says so, and I put my faith and trust in God -
and His word, and because it's what I have studied my whole life.
1. the church is in Apostasy.
2. the church is no longer being led by the Lord.
3. the church is no longer receiving revelation.
4. because of this - the Lord is sending HIS PROPHET - His end-time servant,
to condemn the church and bring judgments down
on ALL the Gentiles in America (which includes the church and it's members.
The Times of the Gentiles are ending.
The lord gave us a chance and did all that He could for us,
but we (the church and it's members) HAVE NOT REPENTED,
just as the scriptures below say we wouldn't.

2 Nephi 28

29 Wo be unto him that shall say: We have received the word of God, and we need no more of the word of God, for we have enough!

30 For behold, thus saith the Lord God: I will give unto the children of men line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little; and blessed are those who hearken unto MY PRECEPTS, and lend an ear unto my counsel, for they shall learn wisdom; for unto him that receiveth I will give more; and from them that shall say, We have enough, from them shall be taken away even that which they have.

31 Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men, save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost.

32 Wo be unto the Gentiles, saith the Lord God of Hosts! For notwithstanding I shall lengthen out mine arm unto them from day to day,
they will deny me;
nevertheless, I will be merciful unto them, saith the Lord God, if they will repent and come unto me; for mine arm is lengthened out all the day long, saith the Lord God of Hosts.



THE GENTILES - your future
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=51261&p=924410&hili ... re#p924410
------------------------

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=47011&p=912727&hili ... m.#p912727

I have no horse in this race other than that finding truth. I have truly studied and asked about the state of the Church, and I have not received an answer that it is in apostasy. The keys are still here. Are the Saints (collectively) living up to our covenants? No, we aren’t. We haven’t lived righteously enough to establish Zion. We are living short of our potential blessings. We are as the children of Israel wandering in the wilderness. Did their unwillingness as a people to live the higher law mean that Moses or Aaron or Joshua were wicked? No. They were righteous, albeit imperfect as well as the people they were leading. But the priesthood authority remained with God’s people while they wandered and learned and errored. The priesthood authority remains with us as a people, and in some instances perhaps even independent of actual priesthood power, which is dependent on faith and righteousness. Priesthood authority to perform ordinances and administer the Gospel can be given to whomever the Lord wants, worthy of it or not.

I do believe the Davidic Servant will be rejected by many within the church. He will be a key player in the sifting. But the existence of an end time servant does not necessarily mean that the priesthood keys that reside within the hierarchy of the Church’s leadership are null and void. Like Joseph said, stay with the majority of the 12. I truly believe when this man comes on the scene, at least 8 of the 15 will hear him and recognize him for who he is. I only pray that whatever the circumstances, I will heed the Spirit and recognize him when he comes.

----------------

sorry but, that's not what the scriptures say.

Our exclusive Priesthood rights to end
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=48178&p=850218&hili ... nd#p850218

and
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=51369&p=927567&hili ... ch#p927567

Sure, they will end eventually. That doesn’t mean they have already ended. It says until the restoration of all things...that hasn’t happened yet.

Honestly, this thread isn’t the right place to have this discussion. I am aware of your stance. I may actually be one of the few people on the forum who read your posts completely. I just don’t read the scriptures to mean the same thing you read them to mean. All scripture should be taken in context of all other revelation and scripture to fully understand it. Taking every scripture at face value does not always give you the whole story. For example, today I was reading in Matthew 23. Baptists down here in the South love to charge the Latter Day Saints with being out of line with the scriptures because of our belief in eternal marriage because of Jesus saying that in the resurrection no one is married. But we know that that isn’t the case. Further revelation on the subject —that those married, but not sealed will indeed be angels unto God in the resurrection — clarifies the apparent discrepancy. But a person could, if they chose to take the scriptures at face value without added context, come on the board and argue that we are out of line as a Church with Jesus teachings.

I know that pride exists within the church. We are, in general, a prideful people, myself included, and should repent. But it occurred to me one time how much humility it takes to accept that the Lord has placed another imperfect person in a position of authority over us, even though that person is on the same level as we may be. The times I have started to feel like I don’t need the Church or to sustain a leader over me by listening to his counsel or that I have studied this or that and know better than Apostle x or Bishop Y is when I have been rebuked by the Spirit for pride. Unless the Lord himself has appeared to you and called you as a prophet or placed you in an official priesthood leadership capacity through the channels of his organization on Earth, then there will always be a priesthood authority above you to *administer* the gospel. This doesn’t mean there will be an intermediary between you and revelation from God through the Holy Ghost, but as far as administration, the organization is the way God sets things up. To keep things in order. That’s why Samuel sent people he preached to the Nephi to be baptized. Because Nephi had the keys. Again the Lord chooses who has keys. Priesthood power is separate and can be exercised by anyone with enough faith...that’s what Samuel had. But he wasn’t the one in authority, and therefore relied on that person to have ordinances administered. That is the purpose of the restoration of priesthood authority. The Davidic Servant will absolutely be able to exercise priesthood power independent of priesthood authority if that is God’s will. In that way, he could be exercising priesthood power while President Nelson or whoever is still holding the keys. But you are right that eventually the correct keys will have to be committed back to him. But for now, the reside with the Church, with the Quorum of the First Presidency holding all the keys of priesthood authirity currently committed to the World.

---------------
How can we have priesthood authority - when we are in total apostasy ?
(*** see below)

I've got to hand it to ya,
just like in your comments that show your narrow point of view,
you know you're quite presumptuous saying
" I may actually be one of the few people on the forum who read your posts completely"
And how would you even know that ?
And do I even care ? no.
I 'm not here to be popular.
I'm here to bring out the truth of the word of God and what the scriptures are actually saying.
These scriptures are NOT MY OPINION - just read only the scriptures if you want
and decide for yourself.
Those that recognize truth when they see it, and understand, will see the value in the 1000's of scriptures I've
posted and why I have posted these particular scriptures and spent 100's of hours
over the past year posting them here,
while others - most members - could care less about the word of God, and the warnings given,
and it's true, won't even read them.
They're usually more interested in just spiting out their opinion, instead of
letting the scriptures be their foundation and rule and standard to judge everything by.

It's really so sad that so many members don't even follow the commandment that Jesus gave us
to ""search these things diligently - for great are the words of Isaiah",
and care more about church leaders
than they do Jesus Christ and His words and the words of great prophets like Isaiah,
and think that the prophet talks to God everyday , and that we are going along as the Lord has planned,
while the scriptures say it's quite the contrary.

***
Isaiah says this is why the need for the Lord's end-time servant.
"Because they epitomize “dumb watchdogs” and “lolling seers,” Jehovah replaces them with a righteous watchman—his servant—and other watchmen."
“Go and appoint a watchman who reports what he sees” (Isaiah 21:6);
“I have appointed watchmen on your walls, O Jerusalem, who shall not be silent day or night”
(sounds like what I've been doing - "who shall not be silent day or night ")
but I think the time of warning is now over - now comes judgement,
and the Lord will now preach His own sermon.

It's NOT only members,
It's very clear in Isaiah 28 and many other chapters and scriptures that the church leaders are mostly to blame.
This is taking about the church and it's leaders - "the drunkards of Ephraim! "
Isaiah 28
please read all
Ephraim and its prophets reap disaster for being delusional and for rejecting divine revelation.
http://www.isaiahexplained.com/28#commentary

Isaiah 28 audio Avraham Gileadi
http://www.isaiahexplained.com/legacy/M ... aiah28.mp3

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=50228&p=904643&hili ... ah#p904643

[I AM]

Alaris, do you believe the Davidic servant has been born?

Yes. I believe the sign on 9/23 signaled the servant's awakening (Isaiah 52) and perhaps the sealing of his crown. (Revelation 3)

The sign doesn't mention the Lion, so what a coincidence that the Lion of Judah was a part of that sign. Jesse / Judah

lordoftheseraphim.blogspot.com/2017/06/for-unto-us-childis-born-disclaimer.html?m=1

I should write a part 3 on all the amazing things that happened around that sign.

So just to reiterate, I agree with Gileadi about the servant transitioning from being a conditional servant to becoming an unconditional inheritor. I believe the sign signals the securing of that crown and right to rule. A heavenly birth rather than a physical one.

I don’t understand this heavenly birth. If the Davidic servant was just born as a spirit child, how can he possibly be the HG, who has been around since ... well, a long time.

--------------
true - about the DS not being the HG.

his birth could have been - his spiritual birth
"when my God became my strength—"
Isaiah 49:5

Isaiah 49 is all about this servant
http://www.isaiahexplained.com/49#commentary

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=50575&p=909571&hil ... th#p909571

[Alaris]

There is only 1 Prophet who can direct this work and he conducts it in the manner Jesus Christ has deemed correct and reveals to him. Teaching doctrine that is incorrect needs to be addressed, and thats what is happening here.

Hey eddie, Alaris went on to testify of President Nelson towards the end of his long post. Did you read that part? Just asking.

@Eddie - I think the above is all you said in your reply to me. I agree with Durzan - I feel like you're not reading my entire posts or perhaps I'm not conveying my belief clearly enough. The following is the for the sake of clarity / understanding.

I agree there is one Prophet of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and I have a testimony of President Nelson. However our own revelations indicate there are other prophets plural out there. Our own scriptures teach we can receive revelation and that the Holy Spirit is what either permits or restricts what we can share.

I don't know what you think it is I'm doing here other than sharing something very sacred to me that I feel I have been permitted to share. I hope you realize that those who chime in here without having studied this out or without having prayed about it are taking a more authoritative stance than I (and others who have shared witnesses) by saying "can't be true." I am not claiming revelation for the church at large, but what are those doing who claim they know the mysteries so well as to know this can't be one of them? Which is the greater presumption of authority?

How can anyone know whether my witness and the other witnesses here, which are spiritual in nature, are true without studying and praying about it? Without studying and praying about it, who is trusting in the arm of the flesh? An evil spirit teaches you that you must not pray.

Imagine if John the Beloved got online (makes you think - would he be like the generation of my parents X 100 and be extremely adverse to tech?) and started sharing whatever the Lord permitted him to share. Now, I'm not claiming to be him and frankly I am saddened I have to state such things to preempt personal attacks. This is just a hypothetical. Might he have something to say that could be new? Now please be honest, and I'm not directing this at you necessarily: How might he be received? How many would reject it outright without ever planting a seed? How many would assume John was an enemy of the church and how dare he make a connection that hasn't come through President Nelson.

Here's what I am saying. I've received a personal witness that the Davidic Servant is the Holy Ghost. I have found so very many scriptures that reinforce this truth and it is so plain that I believe there has been a spirit of deep sleep poured out upon us to prevent us from asking very basic, fundamental questions. Why don't we know the name of the Holy Ghost? When will he get a body? Will he just resurrect without having a body? I doubt all our members are aware of JFS 5-volume work that suggests we don't speculate about the destiny of the Holy Ghost, so why is it nobody seems to even think to ask these questions at all? It would be something if folks asked these questions and they were put down, but nobody seems to think to even ask! And putting them down is against the scriptures themselves that teach us to seek the mysteries and never stop until we know them in full. There is no "boundary" we should enforce so when the boundary enforcers chime in and tell us we shouldn't seek or look or we can't possibly know, and they themselves haven't seeked, looked, asked, - well we have ourselves a Laman and Lemuel situation.

7 And they said: Behold, we cannot understand the words which our father hath spoken concerning the natural branches of the olive-tree, and also concerning the Gentiles.
8 And I said unto them: Have ye inquired of the Lord?
9 And they said unto me: We have not; for the Lord maketh no such thing known unto us.

Based off your responses and others who appear to be chiming in saying this can't be true authoritatively after giving as much inquiry as Laman and Lemuel - how persuasive do you think that will be to the average reader who is lurking here? Every article I write begins with an invitation to prayer and a statement that I am not speaking authoritatively on behalf of the church and to listen to the Spirit rather than to me. Yet the "anti" posts of the last few pages - even I AM's admit there has been no study and no prayer over this. Yet we should take their word for it alone! With possibly the exception of I AM there appears to be little effort to even read and understand what has been said and what has been witnessed in this thread.

[Alaris]

Alaris, do you believe the Davidic servant has been born?

Yes. I believe the sign on 9/23 signaled the servant's awakening (Isaiah 52) and perhaps the sealing of his crown. (Revelation 3)

The sign doesn't mention the Lion, so what a coincidence that the Lion of Judah was a part of that sign. Jesse / Judah

lordoftheseraphim.blogspot.com/2017/06/for-unto-us-childis-born-disclaimer.html?m=1

I should write a part 3 on all the amazing things that happened around that sign.

So just to reiterate, I agree with Gileadi about the servant transitioning from being a conditional servant to becoming an unconditional inheritor. I believe the sign signals the securing of that crown and right to rule. A heavenly birth rather than a physical one.

I don’t understand this heavenly birth. If the Davidic servant was just born as a spirit child, how can he possibly be the HG, who has been around since ... well, a long time.

--------------
true - about the DS not being the HG.

his birth could have been - his spiritual birth
"when my God became my strength—"
Isaiah 49:5

Isaiah 49 is all about this servant
http://www.isaiahexplained.com/49#commentary

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=50575&p=909571&hil ... th#p909571

That's a great point! I believe 9/23 was a sign of this awakening and spiritual ascension - the "birth" of a new God who has been sitting upon the throne (facsimile 3) to earn it. This scripture fits perfectly with my understanding. Thank you for pointing out that piece of Isaiah 49:5.

I add some more explanation here for Eddie - the servant of Isaiah traverses the conditional servitude of man and earns his crown and throne of Godhood - an unconditional promise "to go no more out" - the "birth" of a new God who is to rule all nations with a rod of iron.

Edit: For further context, I AM does not believe there is a Holy Ghost who is a separate and distinct individual from Jesus and the Father (correct me if I am wrong please I AM) - That's like saying I don't believe the Davidic Servant is Superman or Santa Claus.

[Davka]

I have no horse in this race other than that finding truth. I have truly studied and asked about the state of the Church, and I have not received an answer that it is in apostasy. The keys are still here. Are the Saints (collectively) living up to our covenants? No, we aren’t. We haven’t lived righteously enough to establish Zion. We are living short of our potential blessings. We are as the children of Israel wandering in the wilderness. Did their unwillingness as a people to live the higher law mean that Moses or Aaron or Joshua were wicked? No. They were righteous, albeit imperfect as well as the people they were leading. But the priesthood authority remained with God’s people while they wandered and learned and errored. The priesthood authority remains with us as a people, and in some instances perhaps even independent of actual priesthood power, which is dependent on faith and righteousness. Priesthood authority to perform ordinances and administer the Gospel can be given to whomever the Lord wants, worthy of it or not.

I do believe the Davidic Servant will be rejected by many within the church. He will be a key player in the sifting. But the existence of an end time servant does not necessarily mean that the priesthood keys that reside within the hierarchy of the Church’s leadership are null and void. Like Joseph said, stay with the majority of the 12. I truly believe when this man comes on the scene, at least 8 of the 15 will hear him and recognize him for who he is. I only pray that whatever the circumstances, I will heed the Spirit and recognize him when he comes.

----------------

sorry but, that's not what the scriptures say.

Our exclusive Priesthood rights to end
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=48178&p=850218&hili ... nd#p850218

and
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=51369&p=927567&hili ... ch#p927567

Sure, they will end eventually. That doesn’t mean they have already ended. It says until the restoration of all things...that hasn’t happened yet.

Honestly, this thread isn’t the right place to have this discussion. I am aware of your stance. I may actually be one of the few people on the forum who read your posts completely. I just don’t read the scriptures to mean the same thing you read them to mean. All scripture should be taken in context of all other revelation and scripture to fully understand it. Taking every scripture at face value does not always give you the whole story. For example, today I was reading in Matthew 23. Baptists down here in the South love to charge the Latter Day Saints with being out of line with the scriptures because of our belief in eternal marriage because of Jesus saying that in the resurrection no one is married. But we know that that isn’t the case. Further revelation on the subject —that those married, but not sealed will indeed be angels unto God in the resurrection — clarifies the apparent discrepancy. But a person could, if they chose to take the scriptures at face value without added context, come on the board and argue that we are out of line as a Church with Jesus teachings.

I know that pride exists within the church. We are, in general, a prideful people, myself included, and should repent. But it occurred to me one time how much humility it takes to accept that the Lord has placed another imperfect person in a position of authority over us, even though that person is on the same level as we may be. The times I have started to feel like I don’t need the Church or to sustain a leader over me by listening to his counsel or that I have studied this or that and know better than Apostle x or Bishop Y is when I have been rebuked by the Spirit for pride. Unless the Lord himself has appeared to you and called you as a prophet or placed you in an official priesthood leadership capacity through the channels of his organization on Earth, then there will always be a priesthood authority above you to *administer* the gospel. This doesn’t mean there will be an intermediary between you and revelation from God through the Holy Ghost, but as far as administration, the organization is the way God sets things up. To keep things in order. That’s why Samuel sent people he preached to the Nephi to be baptized. Because Nephi had the keys. Again the Lord chooses who has keys. Priesthood power is separate and can be exercised by anyone with enough faith...that’s what Samuel had. But he wasn’t the one in authority, and therefore relied on that person to have ordinances administered. That is the purpose of the restoration of priesthood authority. The Davidic Servant will absolutely be able to exercise priesthood power independent of priesthood authority if that is God’s will. In that way, he could be exercising priesthood power while President Nelson or whoever is still holding the keys. But you are right that eventually the correct keys will have to be committed back to him. But for now, the reside with the Church, with the Quorum of the First Presidency holding all the keys of priesthood authirity currently committed to the World.

---------------
How can we have priesthood authority - when we are in total apostasy ?
(*** see below)

I've got to hand it to ya,
just like in your comments that show your narrow point of view,
you know you're quite presumptuous saying
" I may actually be one of the few people on the forum who read your posts completely"
And how would you even know that ?
And do I even care ? no.
I 'm not here to be popular.
I'm here to bring out the truth of the word of God and what the scriptures are actually saying.
These scriptures are NOT MY OPINION - just read only the scriptures if you want
and decide for yourself.
Those that recognize truth when they see it, and understand, will see the value in the 1000's of scriptures I've
posted and why I have posted these particular scriptures and spent 100's of hours
over the past year posting them here,
while others - most members - could care less about the word of God, and the warnings given,
and it's true, won't even read them.
They're usually more interested in just spiting out their opinion, instead of
letting the scriptures be their foundation and rule and standard to judge everything by.

It's really so sad that so many members don't even follow the commandment that Jesus gave us
to ""search these things diligently - for great are the words of Isaiah",
and care more about church leaders
than they do Jesus Christ and His words and the words of great prophets like Isaiah,
and think that the prophet talks to God everyday , and that we are going along as the Lord has planned,
while the scriptures say it's quite the contrary.

***
Isaiah says this is why the need for the Lord's end-time servant.
"Because they epitomize “dumb watchdogs” and “lolling seers,” Jehovah replaces them with a righteous watchman—his servant—and other watchmen."
“Go and appoint a watchman who reports what he sees” (Isaiah 21:6);
“I have appointed watchmen on your walls, O Jerusalem, who shall not be silent day or night”
(sounds like what I've been doing - "who shall not be silent day or night ")
but I think the time of warning is now over - now comes judgement,
and the Lord will now preach His own sermon.

It's NOT only members,
It's very clear in Isaiah 28 and many other chapters and scriptures that the church leaders are mostly to blame.
This is taking about the church and it's leaders - "the drunkards of Ephraim! "
Isaiah 28
please read all
Ephraim and its prophets reap disaster for being delusional and for rejecting divine revelation.
http://www.isaiahexplained.com/28#commentary

Isaiah 28 audio Avraham Gileadi
http://www.isaiahexplained.com/legacy/M ... aiah28.mp3

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=50228&p=904643&hili ... ah#p904643

Ok, I AM, thank you for letting me know where you stand. I’m going to be done with this conversation now.

I haven’t done anything to you to deserve the kind of treatment you’re displaying...just complete lack of respect for anyone who disagrees with you.

I get that you study the scriptures a lot, but many people do that and still misunderstand them. Without a humble heart and Christlike love for others, even if you are right in your beliefs, you will never convince anyone else, nor will it benefit you when Zion is finally built.

I truly hope you have a nice day.

[Alaris]

~*~*~*

Let us return to this wonderful discussion - just as in the days of Christ there are those who will neither go in nor suffer those who are entering to go in. I recommend using the "Add foe" feature for anyone whose posts you'd like to see less of (click the username then "Add foe") and all their posts will be magically hidden. Please feel free to do so on my username if you'd like my posts to be hidden!

I will do my best to only engage those who wish to interact in a respectful manner with at least some modicum of interest in the topic reflected. This thread really shouldn't be about "Is the Holy Ghost a he" or anything other than discussing the topic at hand. Please make a new thread for any side topics, and I would be happy to consider engaging folks there. Heck, even created a thread about personal attacks against me but please leave those out of this thread.

*~*~*~*

[Alaris]

Speaking of other threads, recently I created a thread about Michael's dominion.

/viewtopic.php?t=50454

In that thread I quoted the Gospel of Thomas:

(12) The disciples said to Jesus, "We know that you will depart from us. Who is to be our leader?"
Jesus said to them, "Wherever you are, you are to go to James the righteous, for whose sake heaven and earth came into being." ~ gospel of thomas

I should write "The case for James and John" being the two witnesses as my thoughts on that topic are scattered all over this forum. Suffice it to say, I have felt strongly James is either the Davidic Servant or a type. There is an interesting case to be made - some questions arise I can't answer ... anyway.

Notice the title of James - "James the righteous" - Anyone actually reading my posts in the last few pages (or this entire thread) will recognize immediately the strongest key word of the Davidic Servant - righteousness

Most of my deeper discussions regarding this have been in pm or email, but I wanted to share a scripture I stumbled upon today.

“Yea, verily I say unto you, in that day when the Lord shall come, he shall reveal all things—things which have passed, and hidden things which no man knew, things of the earth, by which it was made, and the purpose and the end thereof—things most precious, things that are above, and things that are beneath, things that are in the earth, and upon the earth, and in heaven” (D&C 101:32–34)

This scripture suggests that the purpose and the end of this world is not yet revealed! And what things are most precious to the Lord Jesus Christ?

Revelation 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Isaiah 40: 13 Who hath directed the Spirit of the Lord, or being his counsellor hath taught him?
14 With whom took he counsel, and who instructed him, and taught him in the path of judgment, and taught him knowledge, and shewed to him the way of understanding?
15 Behold, the nations are as a drop of a bucket, and are counted as the small dust of the balance: behold, he taketh up the isles as a very little thing.
16 And Lebanon is not sufficient to burn, nor the beasts thereof sufficient for a burnt offering.
17 All nations before him are as nothing; and they are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity.

In the thread I linked above, I opined that this world - the tribe of this world - is more Eve's dominion than Adam's. Adam's worlds would be equal to the number of wives he has (if he is indeed not monogamous.) Eve's dominion is one to produce a new Adam - a new heir. One who sits upon the throne to earn it. I believe this is a reflection of our Father in Heaven where each Heavenly Mother presides over / with a Son's dominion.

As I have often stated, the Davidic Servant is the answer to the question: How does man become God? I'd also like to get back to one who wears red - the one who treads the winepress and executes judgement. The Angel of the Lord has been the sole executor of judgement & destruction throughout the Old Testament, and even the new. Doesn't an angel smite Herod Agrippa? You know, the Herod that killed James the Son of Zebedee? James was imprisoned and was slain. Then Peter was imprisoned ... and was liberated by the Angel of the Lord. All in the same chapter. What a "coincidence!" Why was Peter liberated and not James? If James = Angel of the Lord, well ... that would explain a great many things.

A LOT of blood has been spilled by the Angel of the Lord - certainly enough to dye his garments red.

Isaiah 37: 34 By the way that he came, by the same shall he return, and shall not come into this city, saith the Lord.
35 For I will defend this city to save it for mine own sake, and for my servant David’s sake.
36 Then the angel of the Lord went forth, and smote in the camp of the Assyrians a hundred and fourscore and five thousand: and when they arose early in the morning, behold, they were all dead corpses.

Which servant David (beloved) merited the Lord's protection of Jerusalem? I loved verse 36 as a youth. When they woke up - they were all dead. What a funny mental image. Little did I know how meaningful this scripture would become to me as an adult. I have tried to envision what this must of looked like - especially from the walls of Jerusalem. Was this a "thanos snap" or was this a scene of terror and destruction more akin to Sauron ... aren't there any good guy metaphors? Ah - Thor from Thor 3 at the end. I actually cried a little in Thor 3 when the Hulk was pulverizing Thor's face and Thor saw his father in his mind's eye who reminded him who he is. :*) Very Davidic Servanty (see Isaiah 51:9-13ish) "Are you Thor, the God of Hammers?"

[I AM]

----------------

sorry but, that's not what the scriptures say.

Our exclusive Priesthood rights to end
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=48178&p=850218&hili ... nd#p850218

and
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=51369&p=927567&hili ... ch#p927567

Sure, they will end eventually. That doesn’t mean they have already ended. It says until the restoration of all things...that hasn’t happened yet.

Honestly, this thread isn’t the right place to have this discussion. I am aware of your stance. I may actually be one of the few people on the forum who read your posts completely. I just don’t read the scriptures to mean the same thing you read them to mean. All scripture should be taken in context of all other revelation and scripture to fully understand it. Taking every scripture at face value does not always give you the whole story. For example, today I was reading in Matthew 23. Baptists down here in the South love to charge the Latter Day Saints with being out of line with the scriptures because of our belief in eternal marriage because of Jesus saying that in the resurrection no one is married. But we know that that isn’t the case. Further revelation on the subject —that those married, but not sealed will indeed be angels unto God in the resurrection — clarifies the apparent discrepancy. But a person could, if they chose to take the scriptures at face value without added context, come on the board and argue that we are out of line as a Church with Jesus teachings.

I know that pride exists within the church. We are, in general, a prideful people, myself included, and should repent. But it occurred to me one time how much humility it takes to accept that the Lord has placed another imperfect person in a position of authority over us, even though that person is on the same level as we may be. The times I have started to feel like I don’t need the Church or to sustain a leader over me by listening to his counsel or that I have studied this or that and know better than Apostle x or Bishop Y is when I have been rebuked by the Spirit for pride. Unless the Lord himself has appeared to you and called you as a prophet or placed you in an official priesthood leadership capacity through the channels of his organization on Earth, then there will always be a priesthood authority above you to *administer* the gospel. This doesn’t mean there will be an intermediary between you and revelation from God through the Holy Ghost, but as far as administration, the organization is the way God sets things up. To keep things in order. That’s why Samuel sent people he preached to the Nephi to be baptized. Because Nephi had the keys. Again the Lord chooses who has keys. Priesthood power is separate and can be exercised by anyone with enough faith...that’s what Samuel had. But he wasn’t the one in authority, and therefore relied on that person to have ordinances administered. That is the purpose of the restoration of priesthood authority. The Davidic Servant will absolutely be able to exercise priesthood power independent of priesthood authority if that is God’s will. In that way, he could be exercising priesthood power while President Nelson or whoever is still holding the keys. But you are right that eventually the correct keys will have to be committed back to him. But for now, the reside with the Church, with the Quorum of the First Presidency holding all the keys of priesthood authirity currently committed to the World.

---------------
How can we have priesthood authority - when we are in total apostasy ?
(*** see below)

I've got to hand it to ya,
just like in your comments that show your narrow point of view,
you know you're quite presumptuous saying
" I may actually be one of the few people on the forum who read your posts completely"
And how would you even know that ?
And do I even care ? no.
I 'm not here to be popular.
I'm here to bring out the truth of the word of God and what the scriptures are actually saying.
These scriptures are NOT MY OPINION - just read only the scriptures if you want
and decide for yourself.
Those that recognize truth when they see it, and understand, will see the value in the 1000's of scriptures I've
posted and why I have posted these particular scriptures and spent 100's of hours
over the past year posting them here,
while others - most members - could care less about the word of God, and the warnings given,
and it's true, won't even read them.
They're usually more interested in just spiting out their opinion, instead of
letting the scriptures be their foundation and rule and standard to judge everything by.

It's really so sad that so many members don't even follow the commandment that Jesus gave us
to ""search these things diligently - for great are the words of Isaiah",
and care more about church leaders
than they do Jesus Christ and His words and the words of great prophets like Isaiah,
and think that the prophet talks to God everyday , and that we are going along as the Lord has planned,
while the scriptures say it's quite the contrary.

***
Isaiah says this is why the need for the Lord's end-time servant.
"Because they epitomize “dumb watchdogs” and “lolling seers,” Jehovah replaces them with a righteous watchman—his servant—and other watchmen."
“Go and appoint a watchman who reports what he sees” (Isaiah 21:6);
“I have appointed watchmen on your walls, O Jerusalem, who shall not be silent day or night”
(sounds like what I've been doing - "who shall not be silent day or night ")
but I think the time of warning is now over - now comes judgement,
and the Lord will now preach His own sermon.

It's NOT only members,
It's very clear in Isaiah 28 and many other chapters and scriptures that the church leaders are mostly to blame.
This is taking about the church and it's leaders - "the drunkards of Ephraim! "
Isaiah 28
please read all
Ephraim and its prophets reap disaster for being delusional and for rejecting divine revelation.
http://www.isaiahexplained.com/28#commentary

Isaiah 28 audio Avraham Gileadi
http://www.isaiahexplained.com/legacy/M ... aiah28.mp3

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=50228&p=904643&hili ... ah#p904643

Ok, I AM, thank you for letting me know where you stand. I’m going to be done with this conversation now.

I haven’t done anything to you to deserve the kind of treatment you’re displaying...just complete lack of respect for anyone who disagrees with you.

I get that you study the scriptures a lot, but many people do that and still misunderstand them. Without a humble heart and Christlike love for others, even if you are right in your beliefs, you will never convince anyone else, nor will it benefit you when Zion is finally built.

I truly hope you have a nice day.

--------------
Thanks, I too think it's a waste of time continuing conversations like this,
and I don't think I misunderstand the scriptures, nor am I here to convince anyone,
actually, I think in many cases the scriptures speak for themselves,
if you let them, and have an open mind and a desire to find the truth and
the Holy Ghost to teach you.

and I don't think I have a lack of respect, as you say,
to say the things I've said.
After looking over my comment to you -
the ONLY thing that I can even see
where you could even say that I've treated you
in a bad way would be where you first
said that you "may actually be one of the few people on the forum who read your posts completely",
meaning, others may not.
And I was only defending myself to what you had already said, and said
"And how would you even know that ?",
which is why I also said you had a narrow point of view, but that was only because and based on what you had said.
So I'm sorry if you might have taken the other things I may have said to be personal -
it wasn't directed to you at all.

[Alaris]

D&C 85: 7 And it shall come to pass that I, the Lord God, will send one mighty and strong, holding the scepter of power in his hand, clothed with light for a covering, whose mouth shall utter words, eternal words; while his bowels shall be a fountain of truth, to set in order the house of God, and to arrange by lot the inheritances of the saints whose names are found, and the names of their fathers, and of their children, enrolled in the book of the law of God;

So I woke up this morning thinking about the bolded, italicized, underlined words above. I was pondering further the possible meanings here, and I concluded that there has been a great deal of hustle and bustle over these words needlessly. Allow me to 'splain.

Many folks presume this means "apostasy" and this becomes a point of contention. Apostasy in the purest sense of the word may have something to do with the "to set in order the house of God" but not as far as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is concerned. Not. tat. tall.

What is the "House of God?" Or, better yet, what are the possible meanings of "house of God?" Do we ever refer to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as "House of God?"

Three potential meanings came to mind when I was thinking about this early, early this morning (like 7:40 a.m.! *gasp*)

House of God potential meanings

1. Temple of God
2. House of David
3. House of Israel

House of God is likely either referring to the temple or to a house as in the houses of the old testament. From Yom Kippur / The Day of Atonement.

Leviticus 14:6 And Aaron shall offer his bullock of the sin offering, which is for himself, and make an atonement for himself, and for his house.

The house of Aaron. Well what is the house of God if not the house of David? House

Isaiah 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord‘s house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.


The Lord's house ... here is the Isaiah Institute Translation:

In the latter days
the mountain of Jehovah’s house
shall become established
asa the head of the mountains;
it shall be preeminent among the hills,
and all nations will flow to it.

Verse 3 KJV

And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

A common interpretation in these verses is the house of God is the temple, yet the gathering of Israel - the Lord's covenant people by birthright - by blood - are also God's holy house. See what I mean?

Let's explore # 2 - The House of David - a bit as I'm not really going through 1-3 sequentially (sorry.)

1 Chornicles 17:11 ¶ And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom.
12 He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever.
13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee:
14 But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore.
15 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.

Well, that's exciting! The house of David sort of is the house of the Lord in the sense of the temple! Think about how the temple was promised through David and executed through David's son (a type.) Verse 11 - who builds the temple in the end times? Certainly not Jesus Christ - at least not directly. He does so through the BRANCH - the very man who is referenced in the Davidic Covenant above: "He shall build me an house." Jehovah says, "I will be his father, and he shall be my son." "I will not take my mercy from him" - mercy is not needed upon Jesus Christ but of the lesser God of Israel to whom points the office of High Priest of the Lesser Priesthood! The OG David's failure speaks to the Davidic Servant's success. Where David fell was in his failure with the higher law of Chastity which lead him down a path of doom.

Zechariah 6:12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the Lord of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the Lord:
13 Even he shall build the temple of the Lord; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.

So is D&C 85:7 the house of David, the house of God (Israel,) or the house of the Lord (temple.) Yes! Well, certainly the first and the last (see what I did there?)

I'm going to replace "malaki / messenger" with "malaki / angel" in Malachi 3 below (same Hebrew source word.)

1 Behold, I will send my angel, and he shall prepare the way before me(elias): and the Lord (not YHWH but Lord / Sire), whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the angel of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD (YHWH) of hosts.
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner’s fire, and like fullers’ soap:
3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness.

Does the house of God need to be set in order? Yes. Do the scriptures show us who will be setting the house of God in order? Why yes. Yes they do.

In the days of Isaiah, King Hezekiah sets in order the House of the LORD - he cleans the temple, sets it in order, and orders the Levites and Priests to perform their cleansing rituals and return to their duties. Isaiah juxtaposes (as does the LORD Himself) his times and characters with end times events. Because of Hezekiah leading his people to righteousness and setting in order the House of the LORD, the Angel of the LORD fights on behalf of God's House for the sake of the House of David - see! All three meanings gather together in this one instance.

Isaiah 37:35 For I will defend this city to save it for mine own sake, and for my servant David’s sake.

In my humble opinion, the angel who slays the 185,000 is the same who is the angel of the covenant who comes in the flesh to set in order the House of God the same way Hezekiah did. This isn't a referendum on the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. This is the third temple that is set in order along with the House of David and the House of God / Israel. D&C 85:7 is a multi-layered multi-faceted meaning given to us by the most intelligent of us all.

Perhaps Hezekiah's example and the Lord's deliverance of Israel will be a call to arms one day in the not too distant future where the Lord sends not his angel without His presence as He did in the days of old but sends his angels - the full host of heaven - and His presence who all stand behind this man who has just secured his crown and his throne in the worlds to come.

[I AM]

~*~*~*

Let us return to this wonderful discussion - just as in the days of Christ there are those who will neither go in nor suffer those who are entering to go in. I recommend using the "Add foe" feature for anyone whose posts you'd like to see less of (click the username then "Add foe") and all their posts will be magically hidden. Please feel free to do so on my username if you'd like my posts to be hidden!

I will do my best to only engage those who wish to interact in a respectful manner with at least some modicum of interest in the topic reflected. This thread really shouldn't be about "Is the Holy Ghost a he" or anything other than discussing the topic at hand. Please make a new thread for any side topics, and I would be happy to consider engaging folks there. Heck, even created a thread about personal attacks against me but please leave those out of this thread.

*~*~*~*

--------------
Great advice Alaris
I've actually used the blocking feature several times now,
and will most likely use it again.
With you however, I will not be using it.
not because I will be reading much of your theories,
but because at least you don't mock others, ***EDIT*** I guess that's not true
like others I've blocked.

[I AM]

Yes. I believe the sign on 9/23 signaled the servant's awakening (Isaiah 52) and perhaps the sealing of his crown. (Revelation 3)

The sign doesn't mention the Lion, so what a coincidence that the Lion of Judah was a part of that sign. Jesse / Judah

lordoftheseraphim.blogspot.com/2017/06/for-unto-us-childis-born-disclaimer.html?m=1

I should write a part 3 on all the amazing things that happened around that sign.

So just to reiterate, I agree with Gileadi about the servant transitioning from being a conditional servant to becoming an unconditional inheritor. I believe the sign signals the securing of that crown and right to rule. A heavenly birth rather than a physical one.

I don’t understand this heavenly birth. If the Davidic servant was just born as a spirit child, how can he possibly be the HG, who has been around since ... well, a long time.

--------------
true - about the DS not being the HG.

his birth could have been - his spiritual birth
"when my God became my strength—"
Isaiah 49:5

Isaiah 49 is all about this servant
http://www.isaiahexplained.com/49#commentary

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=50575&p=909571&hil ... th#p909571

That's a great point! I believe 9/23 was a sign of this awakening and spiritual ascension - the "birth" of a new God who has been sitting upon the throne (facsimile 3) to earn it. This scripture fits perfectly with my understanding. Thank you for pointing out that piece of Isaiah 49:5.

I add some more explanation here for Eddie - the servant of Isaiah traverses the conditional servitude of man and earns his crown and throne of Godhood - an unconditional promise "to go no more out" - the "birth" of a new God who is to rule all nations with a rod of iron.

Edit: For further context, I AM does not believe there is a Holy Ghost who is a separate and distinct individual from Jesus and the Father (correct me if I am wrong please I AM) - That's like saying I don't believe the Davidic Servant is Superman or Santa Claus.

------------
thanks, and I don't agree with you but I will say

I think THIS SAYS ENOUGH.
if you want to add your theories to it
then that's your "precepts of men".
It can't be any plainer.
if you can't see this, and accept these scriptures
for what they say, then I do feel sorry for you.

Doctrine and Covenants 20:28,

28 Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God,
infinite and eternal, without end. Amen.

Mosiah 15
1 And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that
God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.
2 And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son—
3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son—
4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.

Ether 4
12 And whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do good is of me; for good cometh of none save it be of me. I am the same that leadeth men to all good; he that will not believe my words will not believe me—that I am; and he that will not believe me will not believe the Father who sent me. For behold,
I am the Father,
I am the light, and the life, and the truth of the world.


2 Nephi 32
3 Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do.

hmm who does that sound like ? - "tell you all things what ye should do"
THE HOLY GHOST ! which is Jesus Christ !
which is "I AM THE FATHER" !

sounds like they're one person to me !

I rest my case.
I AM through here.

ya, I think I'll leave you with your theories
and those that believe in them, and stick to my scriptures.

[righteousrepublic]

but Joseph taught there is one path to Godhood. And I believe him.

There is only one path to Godhood, we start by getting on the path leading to the Tree of Life...then if we successfully did that we spend time in paradise until our resurrection...then after we gain our immortal body on we go to a kingdom of glory, hopefully the Celestial, where we continue to learn until we know enough to become a God. This is the one and only path leading to Godhood.

However, it could take eons of time to accomplish this. Like wise a child in Kindergarten doesn't move on to a college degree his next school year, right? It takes learning and growing. God will teach us all we know because he says that all that he has will be ours as well if we are faithful and true.


Doctrine and Covenants 132:19, 29, 55
19 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb’s Book of Life, that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.

29 Abraham received all things, whatsoever he received, by revelation and commandment, by my word, saith the Lord, and hath entered into his exaltation and sitteth upon his throne.

55 But if she will not abide this commandment, then shall my servant Joseph do all things for her, even as he hath said; and I will bless him and multiply him and give unto him an hundred-fold in this world, of fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, houses and lands, wives and children, and crowns of eternal lives in the eternal worlds.

Concerning eternal lives D&C 132:30 explains this:

D&C 132:30
30 Abraham received promises concerning his seed, and of the fruit of his loins—from whose loins ye are, namely, my servant Joseph—which were to continue so long as they were in the world; and as touching Abraham and his seed, out of the world they should continue; both in the world and out of the world should they continue as innumerable as the stars; or, if ye were to count the sand upon the seashore ye could not number them.

This is eternal lives as pertaining to the many, not for a single individual having more then one life at any time.

[Benaishtart]

but Joseph taught there is one path to Godhood. And I believe him.

There is only one path to Godhood, we start by getting on the path leading to the Tree of Life...then if we successfully did that we spend time in paradise until our resurrection...then after we gain our immortal body on we go to a kingdom of glory, hopefully the Celestial, where we continue to learn until we know enough to become a God. This is the one and only path leading to Godhood.

However, it could take eons of time to accomplish this. Like wise a child in Kindergarten doesn't move on to a college degree his next school year, right? It takes learning and growing. God will teach us all we know because he says that all that he has will be ours as well if we are faithful and true.


Doctrine and Covenants 132:19, 29, 55
19 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb’s Book of Life, that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.

29 Abraham received all things, whatsoever he received, by revelation and commandment, by my word, saith the Lord, and hath entered into his exaltation and sitteth upon his throne.

55 But if she will not abide this commandment, then shall my servant Joseph do all things for her, even as he hath said; and I will bless him and multiply him and give unto him an hundred-fold in this world, of fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, houses and lands, wives and children, and crowns of eternal lives in the eternal worlds.

Concerning eternal lives D&C 132:30 explains this:

D&C 132:30
30 Abraham received promises concerning his seed, and of the fruit of his loins—from whose loins ye are, namely, my servant Joseph—which were to continue so long as they were in the world; and as touching Abraham and his seed, out of the world they should continue; both in the world and out of the world should they continue as innumerable as the stars; or, if ye were to count the sand upon the seashore ye could not number them.

This is eternal lives as pertaining to the many, not for a single individual having more then one life at any time.

Have you prayed about this? I was totally on your side before until I did.

[righteousrepublic]

Have you prayed about this? I was totally on your side before until I did.

What scriptures are not clear or understood?

A portion of my knowledge comes from D&C 76:50-70
Other comes from Alma 40-42...restoration of body and spirit...space between death and resurrection.
D&C 132:19, 29, 55...continuation of our seed, meaning offspring at present or over generations of times.
BoM 1 Nephi about the path to the Tree of Life

Does a man have more than one mortal body now?
How would it be interpreted if a speaker in front of a large audience were to say I have come to enlighten your bodies? Is he speaking to one person or many? Each person having a body would then become plural collectively, not singularly. Same thing for this verse:

Romans 8
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

On probation:

2 Nephi 2:30
30 I have spoken these few words unto you all, my sons, in the last days of my probation; and I have chosen the good part, according to the words of the prophet. And I have none other object save it be the everlasting welfare of your souls. Amen.

Mormon 9:28
28 Be wise in the days of your probation; strip yourselves of all uncleanness; ask not, that ye may consume it on your lusts, but ask with a firmness unshaken, that ye will yield to no temptation, but that ye will serve the true and living God.

Doctrine and Covenants 29:43
43 And thus did I, the Lord God, appoint unto man the days of his probation—that by his natural death he might be raised in immortality unto eternal life, even as many as would believe;

2 Nephi 9:27
27 But wo unto him that has the law given, yea, that has all the commandments of God, like unto us, and that transgresseth them, and that wasteth the days of his probation, for awful is his state!

1 Nephi 10:21
21 Wherefore, if ye have sought to do wickedly in the days of your probation, then ye are found unclean before the judgment-seat of God; and no unclean thing can dwell with God; wherefore, ye must be cast off forever.

We only have one probation, one chance to perform our labors.

Alma 34:32
32 For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.

Why?

33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.
34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.
35 For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.


Therefore there is no second chance for those who knew better but still sinned their life away. For those that never heard the gospel they get a chance to repent in paradise.

[Alaris]

After planting the seed that the one wearing red is not Jesus Christ, this seed continues to grow and bear fruit.

Remember all those blood moons in 2014 - 2015 that lead up to the Revelation 12 sign?



Well I've been pondering a pearl lately (pm me if you'd like to know) - consider that the Lesser Light that rules the night is the Lesser God of Israel aka The Angel of the Lord / Holy Ghost. This is the one to whom the office of High Priest of Israel / Aaron points to the unfulfilled fall festivals. With me so far?

Well, while pondering how the phases of the moon work (in an effort to unlock this nine phases personal mystery) I realized that the new moon is bathed in the light of the sun, though it is hidden to us. There is a hidden aspect both to the Davidic Servant and to the Holy Ghost. The full moon is when the light of the sun is fully reflected and that light brightens the night.

So a Lunar eclipse is basically a new moon that aligns perfectly between us and the Sun - darkening the Earth during the day. A lunar eclipse is when the Earth comes between the Sun and moon in perfect alignment, also darkening the Earth - yet that blood red color is visible. Blood red ... now where do I remember writing about the color red recently in this thread?

Isaiah 63: 3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.

Revelation 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Revelation 19:15 points back to the Revelation 12 sign - the one who shall rule them with a rod of iron. The Revelation 12 sign came in 2017, ~ 2 years after the four blood moons.

Joseph Smith said the lesser Priesthood of Aaron is the Priesthood of Judgement and Destruction. The Moon represents the lesser light.

So a "blood moon" is a lunar eclipse where the lesser light (lesser God) is blocked by the Earth ... yet we can still see the moon clearly, and its appearance is red. If you take a look at the image above, there was a full solar eclipse where the Moon blocks out the Sun. So the Earth blocks the Sun four times across only two Israel holy days - Passover and Tabernacles - and the Moon blocks the Sun once in the middle of those four blood moons.

The moon shall be as blood. And the sun turned to darkness. The greater God's mercy is hidden from the world while the lesser God executes the judgement and destruction - the fierceness of the wrath of the almighty God.

Passover points to the Greater God while Tabernacles is the final of three unfulfilled fall festivals which points to the lesser. John worshiped the angel of Revelation twice. If the angel delivering the message was the one wearing red, receiving his crown of exaltation ... that would explain so much. That would also reinforce the significance of these signs and add meaning to the blood red nature of these signs.

The sun and the moon and how they interact are how these signs are formed. How the Greater God and Lesser God interact will be revealed -

Isaiah 63: 1 Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.
2 Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?

46 And it shall be said: Who is this that cometh down from God in heaven with dyed garments; yea, from the regions which are not known, clothed in his glorious apparel, traveling in the greatness of his strength?
47 And he shall say: I am he who spake in righteousness, mighty to save.

These are not the Jews asking "who is this Jesus guy?" This is likely everyone ...

D&C 85:7 And it shall come to pass that I, the Lord God, will send one mighty and strong, holding the scepter of power (Revelation 12 & 19) in his hand, clothed with light for a covering, whose mouth shall utter words, eternal words; while his bowels shall be a fountain of truth, to set in order the house of God, and to arrange by lot the inheritances of the saints whose names are found, and the names of their fathers, and of their children, enrolled in the book of the law of God;

Let's read on in D&C 85 - I'm sure this all a big misunderstanding.

8 While that man, who was called of God and appointed, that putteth forth his hand to steady the ark of God, shall fall by the shaft of death, like as a tree that is smitten by the vivid shaft of lightning.

Except for that verse. Obviously the ark of the covenant relates to the Lesser God and the fulfillment of the fall festivals (Yom Kippur.) I'm guessing this is a refernce to the premortal choosing or perhaps the end times where someone tries to take the servant's place - or both. Next verse.. I'm sure those are coincidences too - this must be about Bishop Partridge and not the lesser God of Israel, right??

9 And all they who are not found written in the book of remembrance shall find none inheritance in that day, but they shall be cut asunder, and their portion shall be appointed them among unbelievers, where are wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Wow that sure sounds like the one wearing red - judgement and destruction. OK well that about settles it ... now I'm just morbidly curious to continue on

10 These things I say not of myself; therefore, as the Lord speaketh, he will also fulfil.

Wow - in verse 7 the Lord Himself is speaking. What does this verse mean? Are there two Lords? Or is that Joseph Smith changing to take over first person speech?

11 And they who are of the High Priesthood, whose names are not found written in the book of the law, or that are found to have apostatized, or to have been cut off from the church, as well as the lesser priesthood, or the members, in that day shall not find an inheritance among the saints of the Most High;
12 Therefore, it shall be done unto them as unto the children of the priest, as will be found recorded in the second chapter and sixty-first and second verses of Ezra.

So in Ezra 2:61-62 the priests are removed from the register. This OMAS has some authority indeed to remove Priesthood from folks. Judgement and Destruction.

[Robbinius]

10 These things I say not of myself; therefore, as the Lord speaketh, he will also fulfil.

Are you serious? I"ve read this a million times and haven't noticed THIS?

[righteousrepublic]

10 These things I say not of myself; therefore, as the Lord speaketh, he will also fulfil.

Are you serious? I"ve read this a million times and haven't noticed THIS?

Please read verse 10 again and the associated reference next to the word "myself". What does the verbiage tell us in D&C 1:38? How is the word of the Lord going to all be fulfilled? The key answer is within the last few lines.

[Alaris]

Here is an excellent quote from Joseph Smith I read over in Marc's excellent LoF thread that is very applicable here. For those of you who think "Can't be" without having looked, consider the witnesses in this thread to this truth along with the following:

“There was nothing made known to these men [the Twelve] but what will be made known to all the Saints of the last days, so soon as they are prepared to receive” (TPJS, p. 237)

Good reads on how to prepare to receive:

2 Nephi 28
Alma 12

[Alaris]

After a beautiful discussion via pm, I realized that two of the scriptures I linked earlier have another strong link between them.

Isaiah 63: 1Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.
2 Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?
3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.
4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.
5 And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me.
6 And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth.

Amos 9:11 ¶ In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:
12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the Lord that doeth this.
13 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt.
14 And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them.
15 And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the Lord thy God.


I didn't notice the "Edom" link between the two. The additional link between these two scriptures underscores the fallen tabernacle of David aspect (restoration of the Kingdom of Israel and its Davidic King) as well as to the fall festivals that align to the western towers / Aaronic Priesthood of the SLC temple.

So, originally I just linked the fall festival - the feast of tabernacles and the "wine" motif that is used in "treading the wine-press" of grapes and how the grape harvest ties to the 7th festival Shabat Shavuot / Pentecost and the Feast of Tabernacles. As I recall, Shabat Shavuot is the beginning of the grape harvest and the feast of Tabernacles is the end. I need to confirm this - super important. OK confirmed:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shavuot
https://www.torahclass.com/bible-studie ... -part-2-ot

CTRL+F and look for "grape" without quotes

As I recall, there is an element to this about wine as well. Of course I had no idea at the time I learned about the grapes and wine that this all had to do with the one wearing red.

There is another important scripture for consideration here along with the two above: Zechariah 14. So, in Zechariah 14, the chapter begins with all this destruction that the LORD will execute (through his servant - see Isaiah) - once this destruction is over, the feast of tabernacles is fulfilled:

16 ¶ And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the Lord will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
20 ¶ In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the Lord’s house shall be like the bowls before the altar.
21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the Lord of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts.

Think about that ... PENTECOST is the beginning of the grape harvest! From pentecost to Tabernacles are the grapes trodden. The fulfilment of these fall festivals is HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD. The immortality and eternal life of man is Holiness unto the Lord! Certainly this is all a coindence, and I must be seeing elephants in the clouds right? The angel of the Lord is the Holy Ghost who is the heir of the House of David - the Lesser God of Israel who fulfills the fall festivals. Coincidence, right?

Zechariah 12:7 The Lord also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.
8 In that day shall the Lord defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the Lord before them.
9 ¶ And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Zechariah is a treasure trove of information:

Zechariah 9:9 ¶ Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an @#$, and upon a colt the foal of an @#$.
10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.
11 As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water.

I love verse 9 from Handel's messiah. The second half of that verse indicates Jesus rode into Jerusalem with a riderless young colt in tow. The Greater Donkey ...and the Lesser....



Verse 10 is what Jehovah's primary purchase was. To set a rider upon that young colt whose dominion shall be from sea to sea and to the ends of the earth - a much, much smaller dominion than Jehovah's yet new to the Angel of the Lord. By the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit - resurrection / Yom Kippur.

[I AM]

the easiest way to find out that this made-up theory about the HG being The Davidic Servant is false,
is first forget about delving deep into this theory that just blinds you more,
and just look up ALL the scriptures and everything you can
on WHO this Davidic Servant really is,
BUT MORE IMPORTANT - WHAT HIS MISSION IS !
this might help
https://isaiahinstitute.com/2018/08/05/ ... index.html

THEN
look up ALL the scriptures and everything you can on the Holy Ghost,
and WHAT the Holy Ghost's function and role is.
this might help:
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/holy- ... g&letter=H
AND YOU WILL FIND YOUR ANSWER !

[Alaris]

the easiest way to find out that this made-up theory about the HG being The Davidic Servant is false,
is first forget about delving deep into this theory that just blinds you more,
and just look up ALL the scriptures and everything you can
on WHO this Davidic Servant really is,
BUT MORE IMPORTANT - WHAT HIS MISSION IS !
this might help
https://isaiahinstitute.com/2018/08/05/ ... index.html

THEN
look up ALL the scriptures and everything you can on the Holy Ghost,
and WHAT the Holy Ghost's function and role is.
this might help:
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/holy- ... g&letter=H
AND YOU WILL FIND YOUR ANSWER !

By the whispering of the STILL SMALL VOICE am I right?