LDS Freedom Forum

Posted: **May 12th, 2019, 8:10 pm**

Durzan wrote: ↑May 12th, 2019, 6:52 pm
Alaris wrote: ↑May 12th, 2019, 6:39 pm I quoted the book of Enoch or 1 Enoch which is the Ethiopian Book of Enoch of which Hugh Nibley wrote a large volume.

Should we avoid the Apocrypha out of fear of error or should we seek the mysteries and listen to the Spirit even if it takes us to the Apocrypha? I mean we have scriptures and don't need any more scripture (jk)

Oh and there is this

D&C 107:57 These things were all written in the book of Enoch, and are to be testified of in due time.
*double checks you to make sure you ain't pulling my leg*

Well, what do ya know... Ha ha. Thats awesome!

To be fair, 1 Enoch is a third witness of the points I was making above.

Let's not forget Paul's witness of to whom the office of the high priest of the Aaronic Priesthood points:

Hebrews 9:2 For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.
3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;
4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron’s rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;
5 And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.
6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.

7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:

8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

My phone is possessed or I would add some formatting. The high priest of the Lesser Priesthood, as he fulfills Yom Kippur approaching the Holy of holies signifies the Holy Ghost. The lesser God. The lesser Priesthood.

Hebrews is a tremendous read as Abijah indicated Earlier. I mean, these aren't even clues. Paul just comes out and says it. And this spirit of deep sleep prevents folks from connecting these dots that have been already connected.

Posted: **May 12th, 2019, 9:14 pm**

Durzan wrote: ↑May 12th, 2019, 6:23 pm
righteousrepublic wrote: ↑May 12th, 2019, 5:25 pm Section 91

Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Kirtland, Ohio, March 9, 1833. The Prophet was at this time engaged in the translation of the Old Testament. Having come to that portion of the ancient writings called the Apocrypha, he inquired of the Lord and received this instruction.

1–3, The Apocrypha is mostly translated correctly but contains many interpolations by the hands of men that are not true; 4–6, It benefits those enlightened by the Spirit.

1 Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you concerning the Apocrypha—There are many things contained therein that are true, and it is mostly translated correctly;

2 There are many things contained therein that are not true, which are interpolations by the hands of men.

3 Verily, I say unto you, that it is not needful that the Apocrypha should be translated.

4 Therefore, whoso readeth it, let him understand, for the Spirit manifesteth truth;

5 And whoso is enlightened by the Spirit shall obtain benefit therefrom;

6 And whoso receiveth not by the Spirit, cannot be benefited. Therefore it is not needful that it should be translated. Amen.

So, to quote from the Apocrypha just to be quoting it may be giving false information to others. It is imperative that those reading the Apocrypha learn by the Spirit, truth from error.
I don't recall seeing any reference to the Apocrypha in Alaris's previous post while skimming it. Could you quote the relevant part you are addressing in this post? That makes it clear for everyone else who may have missed the reference, and demonstrates that you aren't going off on some unrelated tangent.

Well, here it is, because I do recall him mentioning it, and specifically, why do so few seek truth from it. D&C 91 gives the answer.

Alaris wrote: One last question.

Since the Lord told us the Apocrypha is mostly true, why do so few seek truth from the Apocrypha?

This why I looked up this topic. It is not a tangent, rather, a way of telling people that they can't go around spreading doctrine that has flaws in it without, first, having the Holy Ghost confirm which parts are false and which ones are true. Thus the 91st section of the D&C.

I feel that a lot of doctrine that could be flawed is coming out of the Apocrypha. And if it is, people should be cautious until they read it for themselves and have the Holy Ghost teach truth. Otherwise, it is merely coming from the arm of flesh.

There is a lot of quoted info here without associated references. Are we supposed to take everything as fact without knowing the references?

interpolate
2. to falsify or alter (a text, manuscript, etc) by the later addition of (material, esp spurious or valueless passages)

Posted: **May 12th, 2019, 10:59 pm**

abijah wrote: ↑May 12th, 2019, 10:02 am
There are plenty of things to learn already in the scriptures, and it can take a lifetime just to learn all of it, let alone internalize enough to live it well.
Nonsense, anyone can read and learn the scriptures in a generally low amount of time. I didn't say learn them only, I said learning AND practicing them can take a lifetime. Learning and living one's life by them are two different things. The scriptures, and all esoteric knowledge are available at a finger’s tap. Putting knowledge into practice, now that's a different thing. I once had an LDS boss who may of known scripture on Sunday, but on the job, he was a complete horse's patootie. Give someone a little authority, well, you know the rest.

Why is it that Adam and all those before the flood were able to live hundreds of years, and we can't?

During who's lifetime was the earth divided?

When the flood occurred, were there other continents at that time?

Were there any other people resurrected at the time of Jesus'?

What is being talked about in Jacob 5?

Is it true that we can become perfect in this life? How?

Was Adam the son of God?

How does one know if what they think is revelation truly is? In other words, how can one know that what they think is revelation isn't derived from their own wild imaginations and then attributing this to saying it came from God? There must be a sure way of knowing the difference, right? What delineates one from the other?

Posted: **May 13th, 2019, 10:12 am**

1 Nephi 22:9 And it shall also be of worth unto the Gentiles; and not only unto the Gentiles but unto all the house of Israel, unto the making known of the covenants of the Father of heaven unto Abraham, saying: In thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
10 And I would, my brethren, that ye should know that all the kindreds of the earth cannot be blessed unless he shall make bare his arm in the eyes of the nations.
11 Wherefore, the Lord God will proceed to make bare his arm in the eyes of all the nations, in bringing about his covenants and his gospel unto those who are of the house of Israel.

Isaiah 51:9 ¶ Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the LORD; awake, as in the ancient days, in the generations of old. Art thou not it that hath cut Rahab, and wounded the dragon?
10 Art thou not it which hath dried the sea, the waters of the great deep; that hath made the depths of the sea a way for the ransomed to pass over?

16 And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people.

Isaiah 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

Posted: **May 14th, 2019, 1:35 am**

Arm of the Lord is not necessarily His limb

by the greatness of thine arm, Ex. 15:16.
16 Fear and dread shall fall upon them; by the greatness of thine arm

Hast thou an arm like God, Job 40:9.

Break thou the arm of the wicked, Ps. 10:15.

neither did their own arm save them, Ps. 44:3.
3 For they got not the land in possession by their own sword, neither did their own arm save them: but thy right hand, and thine arm, and the light of thy countenance, because thou hadst a favour unto them.

Thou hast with thine arm redeemed thy people, Ps. 77:15.

his holy arm, hath gotten him the victory, Ps. 98:1.
his right hand, and his holy arm, hath gotten him the victory.

Thy right hand, O Lord, is become glorious in power: thy right hand, O Lord, hath dashed in pieces the enemy. Ex. 15:6

be thou their arm every morning, Isa. 33:2.

they were led by the power of his arm, through the wilderness Omni 1:13

The Lord hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations Mosiah 12:24

his arm shall rule for him, Isa. 40:10.
the Lord God will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him

mine arms shall judge the people, Isa. 51:5.

Lord hath made bare his holy arm, Isa. 52:10 D&C 133:3.

to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed, Isa. 53:1 (John 12:38).

mine own arm brought salvation unto me, Isa. 63:5.

led by the power of his arm, Omni 1:13.

arm of the Lord shall be revealed, D&C 1:14.

Posted: **May 14th, 2019, 8:46 am**

righteousrepublic wrote: ↑May 14th, 2019, 1:35 am Arm of the Lord is not necessarily His limb

by the greatness of thine arm, Ex. 15:16.
16 Fear and dread shall fall upon them; by the greatness of thine arm

Hast thou an arm like God, Job 40:9.

Break thou the arm of the wicked, Ps. 10:15.

neither did their own arm save them, Ps. 44:3.
3 For they got not the land in possession by their own sword, neither did their own arm save them: but thy right hand, and thine arm, and the light of thy countenance, because thou hadst a favour unto them.

Thou hast with thine arm redeemed thy people, Ps. 77:15.

his holy arm, hath gotten him the victory, Ps. 98:1.
his right hand, and his holy arm, hath gotten him the victory.

Thy right hand, O Lord, is become glorious in power: thy right hand, O Lord, hath dashed in pieces the enemy. Ex. 15:6

be thou their arm every morning, Isa. 33:2.

they were led by the power of his arm, through the wilderness Omni 1:13

The Lord hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations Mosiah 12:24

his arm shall rule for him, Isa. 40:10.
the Lord God will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him

mine arms shall judge the people, Isa. 51:5.

Lord hath made bare his holy arm, Isa. 52:10 D&C 133:3.

to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed, Isa. 53:1 (John 12:38).

mine own arm brought salvation unto me, Isa. 63:5.

led by the power of his arm, Omni 1:13.

arm of the Lord shall be revealed, D&C 1:14.

Fantastic scriptures that mostly underscore that the arm of the Lord is the angel of the Lord / holy ghost (except for the psalms one.)Thank you for doing all that research. I didn't realize the Book of Mormon had so many uses.

I'll post some Gileadi commentary later about the arm of the Lord.

Posted: **May 14th, 2019, 9:45 am**

righteousrepublic wrote: ↑May 12th, 2019, 10:59 pm Why is it that Adam and all those before the flood were able to live hundreds of years, and we can't?

Not sure yet.

During who's lifetime was the earth divided?

Peleg’s.

When the flood occurred, were there other continents at that time?

Not sure, but clearly different than they are now.

Were there any other people resurrected at the time of Jesus'?

That’s what the scriptures say.

What is being talked about in Jacob 5?

The fulfillment of God’s promises to our fathers.

Is it true that we can become perfect in this life? How?

Perfect within our given sphere certainly. And through partaking of Christ’s Atonement through the reception of the Holy Ghost.

Was Adam the son of God?

Yes, and is the rightful God of this world.

How does one know if what they think is revelation truly is? In other words, how can one know that what they think is revelation isn't derived from their own wild imaginations and then attributing this to saying it came from God? There must be a sure way of knowing the difference, right? What delineates one from the other?

The fruits. Proper revelation is living and fertile. It breeds further and added light and knowledge. Alaris and I came to the revelation that the Holy Ghost will come in the flesh independently. I don’t want to be presumptuous in speaking for him, but I would say this idea has been very alive for us, and offered new understanding for many scriptures as this thread shows.

One’s own wild imaginations don’t tend to produce much. Like the leafy fig tree that doesn’t give any figs.

Posted: **May 14th, 2019, 5:42 pm**

As I promised - Gileadi commentary on the title, "Arm of the Lord."

For yet more evidence that it was the Arm of the Lord who parted the red sea (in addition to Isaiah 51:9-10 and D&C 8:2-3)

Isaiah 63:11 Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?
12 That led them by the right hand of Moses with his glorious arm, dividing the water before them, to make himself an everlasting name?

There are three individuals referenced in verse 12. The Lord Jehovah who led his people by the right hand of Moses (2) with his glorious arm (3.) Who parted the red sea? Jehovah, Moses, and the Arm of the Lord.

What a powerful title, "Arm of the Lord," as it denotes the one who performs the labor of the will of Jehovah - who is strong and mighty ... whoops - mighty and strong.

Avraham Gileadi Commentary on Isaiah 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?

Parallel statements infer that Jehovah’s arm (Isaiah 51:9; 52:10)—his end-time servant—is “revealed” for the sake of those who “believe” the revelation concerning the person who is the subject of verses 1-10. Believing in Jehovah’s revelation as his servant reveals it (Isaiah 21:10; 50:10; 52:15) thus constitutes a test of one’s faith in the God of Israel. Use of the possessive “our revelation” suggests that alternative versions exist that aren’t grounded in the truth. It also implies that a division occurs between those of Jehovah’s people who believe the revelation and those who don’t (Isaiah 28:16; 43:10).

Wow - that's a powerful analysis indeed. That analysis reminds me of this warning:

"Our Savior and Redeemer, Jesus Christ, will perform some of His mightiest works between now and when He comes again. We will see miraculous indications that God the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ, preside over this Church in majesty and glory. But in coming days, it will not be possible to survive spiritually without the guiding, directing, comforting, and constant influence of the Holy Ghost."

The irony! The Arm of the Lord who is the Holy Ghost will reveal truths regarding the person who is the subject of verses 1-10 of Isaiah 53. And it will not be possible to survive spiritually without the guiding, directing, comforting, and constant influence of the Holy Ghost. Wait, is this a double meaning? You must confirm the revelations made by the incarnate Holy Ghost by the power of the Holy Ghost??? Can this be???

D&C 90:10 And then cometh the day when the arm of the Lord shall be revealed in power in convincing the nations, the heathen nations, the house of Joseph, of the gospel of their salvation.

11 For it shall come to pass in that day, that every man shall hear the fulness of the gospel in his own tongue, and in his own language, through those who are ordained unto this power, by the administration of the Comforter, shed forth upon them for the revelation of Jesus Christ.

I guess so! There it is.

Here are some of those scriptures Gileadi cited in regards to the revelations by the Arm of the Lord:

Isaiah 21:10 O my threshing, and the corn of my floor: that which I have heard of the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel, have I declared unto you.

Isaiah 50:10 Who is among you that feareth the Lord, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the Lord, and stay upon his God.

Isaiah 52:10 The Lord hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.
15 So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.

Jesus repeated verse 15 to the Nephites. Nephi repeated verse 10 to us. Must be important.

Here is Avraham Gileadi's commentary on Isaiah 51:4-5

Jehovah appeals to “my people” or “my nation”—to his covenant people now scattered among the nations of the world—to pay attention to what he is doing. His “precepts” and “law” or teachings go forth as a light “from me.” That is, not from men or their religions but through his servant, who—like Moses (Exodus 24:12; Deuteronomy 4:44)—serves as Jehovah’s lawgiver (Isaiah 42:4, 21; 55:4) and who personifies Jehovah’s righteousness and light (Isaiah 41:2; 42:6; 45:19; 49:6). While the wicked may reject the servant, with his coming the fate of nations and peoples hangs in the balance.
As a forerunner to Jehovah’s coming, the servant is one of two “arms” of God—the arm of righteousness (Isaiah 30:30; 40:10-11; 48:14-15; 52:10)—the other being Jehovah, the arm of salvation (Isaiah 33:2; 59:16; 63:5). The arms metaphor denotes divine intervention. That takes place: (1) through his servant, who restores justice in the earth among all nations and isles to prepare them for Jehovah’s coming (Isaiah 32:16-17; 41:1-2; 42:1-4; 56:1; 62:8-9); and (2) through Jehovah’s himself, his judgment of the wicked and deliverance of the righteous (Isaiah 35:4; 59:16-20; 63:1-6; 66:10-16).

To be forthright, Gileadi's final statement there indicates his belief that the one wearing red is Jesus Christ. I may make this the subject of my next article. The one who treads the winepress alone - the fierceness of the wrath of the almighty God has been the "Destroyer" of Israel - executing the judgments of God upon the firstborn of Egypt, upon the inhabitants of Jericho, and upon the 185,000 Assyrians who besieged Jerusalem. Jehovah could not make this claim if He has sent someone in his stead to execute the Judgement & Destruction roles of the Lesser Priesthood & Lesser God.

Posted: **May 14th, 2019, 5:53 pm**

righteousrepublic wrote: ↑May 12th, 2019, 10:59 pm
abijah wrote: ↑May 12th, 2019, 10:02 am
There are plenty of things to learn already in the scriptures, and it can take a lifetime just to learn all of it, let alone internalize enough to live it well.
Nonsense, anyone can read and learn the scriptures in a generally low amount of time. I didn't say learn them only, I said learning AND practicing them can take a lifetime. Learning and living one's life by them are two different things. The scriptures, and all esoteric knowledge are available at a finger’s tap. Putting knowledge into practice, now that's a different thing. I once had an LDS boss who may of known scripture on Sunday, but on the job, he was a complete horse's patootie. Give someone a little authority, well, you know the rest.
Why is it that Adam and all those before the flood were able to live hundreds of years, and we can't?
Abraham 5:13
13 But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the time that thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die. Now I, Abraham, saw that it was after the Lord’s time, which was after the time of Kolob; for as yet the Gods had not appointed unto Adam his reckoning.

During who's lifetime was the earth divided?
Peleg...check, Genesis 10:25

When the flood occurred, were there other continents at that time?
No, because the flood occurred before the earth was divided. Genesis 7:6-7,10,17 See also: D&C 133:23,24

Were there any other people resurrected at the time of Jesus'?
Yes...check

What is being talked about in Jacob 5?
Jacob quotes Zenos relative to the allegory of the tame and wild olive trees—They are a likeness of Israel and the Gentiles—The scattering and gathering of Israel are prefigured—Allusions are made to the Nephites and Lamanites and all the house of Israel—The Gentiles will be grafted into Israel—Eventually the vineyard will be burned

Is it true that we can become perfect in this life? How?
Moroni 10:32,33

Was Adam the son of God?
Adam is not the God of this world. Adam did not take upon himself the sins of the world and he did not create mankind.

Christ/Jehovah created the earth and all mankind on it.
Mosiah 26:23
23 For it is I that taketh upon me the sins of the world; for it is I that hath created them; and it is I that granteth unto him that believeth unto the end a place at my right hand.

How does one know if what they think is revelation truly is? In other words, how can one know that what they think is revelation isn't derived from their own wild imaginations and then attributing this to saying it came from God? There must be a sure way of knowing the difference, right? What delineates one from the other?
Doctrine and Covenants 8:2
2 Yea, behold, I will tell you in your mind and in your heart, by the Holy Ghost, which shall come upon you and which shall dwell in your heart.

D&C 9:8 (7–9)
7 Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me.
8 But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.
9 But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a stupor of thought that shall cause you to forget the thing which is wrong; therefore, you cannot write that which is sacred save it be given you from me.

Posted: **May 14th, 2019, 6:15 pm**

Alaris wrote: ↑May 14th, 2019, 8:46 amFantastic scriptures that mostly underscore that the arm of the Lord is the angel of the Lord / holy ghost (except for the psalms one.)Thank you for doing all that research. I didn't realize the Book of Mormon had so many uses.

I'll post some Gileadi commentary later about the arm of the Lord.

Arm does not mean Holy Ghost. It means MIGHT, POWER and STRENGTH As an example, Jehovah spoke and the worlds were created. He spoke and mankind was created.
Another example, Jesus spoke and Lazarus came forth from the dead.

The Holy Ghost is the small, still voice that God sheds forth to those who are on the path leading to the Tree of Life.

Posted: **May 14th, 2019, 6:28 pm**

righteousrepublic wrote: ↑May 14th, 2019, 6:15 pm
Alaris wrote: ↑May 14th, 2019, 8:46 amFantastic scriptures that mostly underscore that the arm of the Lord is the angel of the Lord / holy ghost (except for the psalms one.)Thank you for doing all that research. I didn't realize the Book of Mormon had so many uses.

I'll post some Gileadi commentary later about the arm of the Lord.
Arm does not mean Holy Ghost. It means MIGHT, POWER and STRENGTH As an example, Jehovah spoke and the worlds were created. He spoke and mankind was created.
Another example, Jesus spoke and Lazarus came forth from the dead.

The Holy Ghost is the small, still voice that God sheds forth to those who are on the path leading to the Tree of Life.

-------------
The Lord through Moses led the people out of Egypt.
The Lord through His ("arm" end-time servant) will lead the saints and remnant to Zion.
"Arm" is a metaphor for Jehovah’s end-time servant.
"The terms mouth, sword, hand, and arrow also designate Jehovah’s servant metaphorically "(Isaiah 31:8; 51:16; 62:2-3).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Posted: **May 14th, 2019, 6:40 pm**

righteousrepublic wrote: ↑May 14th, 2019, 6:15 pm
Alaris wrote: ↑May 14th, 2019, 8:46 amFantastic scriptures that mostly underscore that the arm of the Lord is the angel of the Lord / holy ghost (except for the psalms one.)Thank you for doing all that research. I didn't realize the Book of Mormon had so many uses.

I'll post some Gileadi commentary later about the arm of the Lord.
Arm does not mean Holy Ghost. It means MIGHT, POWER and STRENGTH As an example, Jehovah spoke and the worlds were created. He spoke and mankind was created.
Another example, Jesus spoke and Lazarus came forth from the dead.

The Holy Ghost is the small, still voice that God sheds forth to those who are on the path leading to the Tree of Life.

Oh you mean you didn't intentionally reinforce what I've been saying about the "Arm of the Lord" being the Holy Ghost? Well, thanks anyways. Please keep chiming in as you are moving the discussion forward whether that is your intent or not. Just about every response you've given includes something that reinforces what I'm saying. For example, your most recent response: "Might, Power, and Strength" are also key words that align to the Davidic Servant. D&C 85:7 is a famous scripture that includes these key words and are in fact referencing this "servant in the hands of Christ, who is partly a descendant of Jesse as well as of Ephraim, or of the house of Joseph, on whom there is laid much power" - whoops that's from D&C 113:4. How many times must you inadverntly help me convince you the Arm of the Lord is The Holy Ghost before you are convinced?

Isaiah 28:1 Woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of Ephraim, (the irony) whose glorious beauty is a fading flower, which are on the head of the fat valleys of them that are overcome with wine!
2 Behold, the Lord hath a mighty and strong one, which as a tempest of hail and a destroying storm, as a flood of mighty waters overflowing, shall cast down to the earth with the hand.

Gileadi commentary on Isaiah 28:2
The imagery of “a ravaging hailstorm sweeping down” and of “an inundating deluge of mighty waters” identifies the king of Assyria/Babylon and his alliance of aggressor nations (Isaiah 8:7-8; 17:12; 18:2). A second “one mighty and strong” in the Book of Isaiah is Jehovah’s servant, who makes an end of him at the last. Although Jehovah provides a refuge for a repentant remnant of his people against the storms of their enemies (Isaiah 4:6; 25:4-5; 57:13), he empowers the archtyrant—Jehovah’s (left) hand—over “the drunkards of Ephraim” to cast their illustriousness to the ground (cf. vv 1, 3).(Bold & Italics mine)

You should read Gileadi's commentary on all of those Isaiah scriptures you quoted regarding the Arm of the Lord. Clearly, he believes the Arm of the Lord to be the Davidic Servant. I agree with him. I am not alone in this belief, though I will readily admit I may be alone in my belief the one wearing red may not be Jehovah but His Arm. His commentary on Isaiah 28 is a scathing read, but indeed there are many Latter-day Saints who are completely unready to receive what the Lord wishes to reveal.

Posted: **May 14th, 2019, 6:46 pm**

Gileadi
The Last Days - Types and Shadows from the Bible and Book of Mormon

quote

"In the book of Isaiah originates the key idea of the Lord's
making bare his arm in the eyes of all nations.
In Nephi's second sequence, the Lord's making bare his arm
is something synonymous with the Lord's marvelous work.
Nephi links these two ideas both structurally and rhetorically.
From my studies of Isaiah over many years, I conclude that the arm
of the Lord refers to a servant of the Lord who is a descendant of David,
who preceds Jesus ' second coming.
That servant is also known in the book of Isaiah by other metaphorical pseudonyms, such as the Lord's hand, staff, ensign,etc. The term arm,
in particular, connotes the Lord's divine intervention in the affairs of
humanity through the instrumentality of the servant.
The Davidic servant, in effect, accomplishes the restoration of Israel
and Judah that the Prophet Joseph Smith attributes to a latter - day David.
Israel's and Judah's conversion and restoration, Joseph predicts, will occur through the instrumentality of the Lord's servant in a "day of power."

According to the two Isaiah chapters, a servant of the Lord, who at first is hidden
from the world but whom the Lord will reveal, gathers and restores latter day Israel. In that task, righteous Gentiles assist him. The Lord's making bare
his arm in the eyes of all nations, therefore, refers to the universally revealed
mission which the Lord's servant performs when assisted by certain Gentiles.
Though we don't know the identity of the servant, we do know, from scriptural patterns, that this servant will not be one to announce himself but will be called
of God as was David anciently through the instrumentality of the prophet Samuel.
Isaiah prophesies that when the Lord's servant is revealed to the world,
many will hate and abhor him. even his own people.
The Lord nonetheless commissions him with power to set free and gather His
ancient covenant people from the ends of the earth.
In conjunction, with this mission, the Lord gives him power to judge Babylon."

end quote

Posted: **May 14th, 2019, 9:54 pm**

abijah wrote: ↑May 14th, 2019, 9:45 amOne’s own wild imaginations don’t tend to produce much.

On this we agree.

Posted: **May 14th, 2019, 10:10 pm**

Alaris wrote: ↑May 14th, 2019, 6:40 pm
righteousrepublic wrote: ↑May 14th, 2019, 6:15 pm
Alaris wrote: ↑May 14th, 2019, 8:46 amFantastic scriptures that mostly underscore that the arm of the Lord is the angel of the Lord / holy ghost (except for the psalms one.)Thank you for doing all that research. I didn't realize the Book of Mormon had so many uses.

I'll post some Gileadi commentary later about the arm of the Lord.
Arm does not mean Holy Ghost. It means MIGHT, POWER and STRENGTH As an example, Jehovah spoke and the worlds were created. He spoke and mankind was created.
Another example, Jesus spoke and Lazarus came forth from the dead.

The Holy Ghost is the small, still voice that God sheds forth to those who are on the path leading to the Tree of Life.
Oh you mean you didn't intentionally reinforce what I've been saying about the "Arm of the Lord" being the Holy Ghost? This is exactly what we agree upon. Thank you for acknowledging this.

You should read Gileadi's commentary on all of those Isaiah scriptures you quoted regarding the Arm of the Lord. You mean I should put my trust in the arm of flesh? No thank you.

When the Lord wants me to learn something that he wants me to know, it won't be through a commentary?

Questions: is the Holy Ghost the offspring of David? Who is the root and offspring of David, Christ or the Holy Ghost?

Rev 22:16
16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Isa. 53:2
2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

Rev. 5:5
5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David (Jesus Christ), hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

Isa. 11:10
10 ¶ And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

Jesus says, "enter into my rest" therefore, the root of Jesse is Jesus.

The Holy Ghost is neither the root of Jesse nor the offspring of David. This is for sure and for certain. Thus, he cannot be the Davidic Servant either.

Posted: **May 14th, 2019, 10:33 pm**

abijah wrote: ↑May 14th, 2019, 9:45 am The fruits. Proper revelation is living and fertile. It breeds further and added light and knowledge. Alaris and I came to the revelation that the Holy Ghost will come in the flesh independently. I don’t want to be presumptuous in speaking for him, but I would say this idea has been very alive for us, and offered new understanding for many scriptures as this thread shows.

One’s own wild imaginations don’t tend to produce much. Like the leafy fig tree that doesn’t give any figs.

Don't forget to add me to the list of people who came to that conclusion independently as well.

Posted: **May 14th, 2019, 11:42 pm**

BTW, the spirit of the Lord is not the Holy Ghost. It is the Spirit of Christ, or the Light of Christ. See: Answers to Gospel Questions, Vol 5, pg 119. BTW, these five volumes are from Joseph Fielding Smith's own words, and not Gileadi.

Doctrine and Covenants 63
32 I, the Lord, am angry with the wicked; I am holding my Spirit from the inhabitants of the earth.
33 I have sworn in my wrath, and decreed wars upon the face of the earth, and the wicked shall slay the wicked, and fear shall come upon every man;
34 And the saints also shall hardly escape; nevertheless, I, the Lord, am with them, and will come down in heaven from the presence of my Father and consume the wicked with unquenchable fire.

1:33
33 And he that repents not, from him shall be taken even the light which he has received; for my Spirit shall not always strive with man, saith the Lord of Hosts.

D&C 84:45-53
45 For the word of the Lord is truth, and whatsoever is truth is light, and whatsoever is light is Spirit, even the Spirit of Jesus Christ.
46 And the Spirit giveth light to every man that cometh into the world; and the Spirit enlighteneth every man through the world, that hearkeneth to the voice of the Spirit.
47 And every one that hearkeneth to the voice of the Spirit cometh unto God, even the Father.
48 And the Father teacheth him of the covenant which he has renewed and confirmed upon you, which is confirmed upon you for your sakes, and not for your sakes only, but for the sake of the whole world.
49 And the whole world lieth in sin, and groaneth under darkness and under the bondage of sin.
50 And by this you may know they are under the bondage of sin, because they come not unto me.
51 For whoso cometh not unto me is under the bondage of sin.
52 And whoso receiveth not my voice is not acquainted with my voice, and is not of me.
53 And by this you may know the righteous from the wicked, and that the whole world groaneth under sin and darkness even now.

So there we have it. The Holy Ghost is not the same as the Spirit of the Lord.
The Light of Christ is not the same as the Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost.
Man is born with the Light of Christ but not the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Posted: **May 15th, 2019, 12:14 am**

Joseph Fielding Smith says:
The Holy Ghost is a personage of Spirit, in the likeness of the Father and the Son. His mission is to instruct and enlighten; he bears witness of the truth, quickens the minds of those who have made covenants and reveals mysteries of the Kingdom of God.

He is a special messenger from the Father and the Son and carries out their will; but he is not sent to the world. ATGQ, Vol 5, pg 134

Posted: **May 15th, 2019, 11:08 am**

righteousrepublic wrote: ↑May 14th, 2019, 11:42 pm BTW, the spirit of the Lord is not the Holy Ghost. It is the Spirit of Christ, or the Light of Christ. See: Answers to Gospel Questions, Vol 5, pg 119. BTW, these five volumes are from Joseph Fielding Smith's own words, and not Gileadi.

Doctrine and Covenants 63
32 I, the Lord, am angry with the wicked; I am holding my Spirit from the inhabitants of the earth.
33 I have sworn in my wrath, and decreed wars upon the face of the earth, and the wicked shall slay the wicked, and fear shall come upon every man;
34 And the saints also shall hardly escape; nevertheless, I, the Lord, am with them, and will come down in heaven from the presence of my Father and consume the wicked with unquenchable fire.

1:33
33 And he that repents not, from him shall be taken even the light which he has received; for my Spirit shall not always strive with man, saith the Lord of Hosts.

D&C 84:45-53
45 For the word of the Lord is truth, and whatsoever is truth is light, and whatsoever is light is Spirit, even the Spirit of Jesus Christ.
46 And the Spirit giveth light to every man that cometh into the world; and the Spirit enlighteneth every man through the world, that hearkeneth to the voice of the Spirit.
47 And every one that hearkeneth to the voice of the Spirit cometh unto God, even the Father.
48 And the Father teacheth him of the covenant which he has renewed and confirmed upon you, which is confirmed upon you for your sakes, and not for your sakes only, but for the sake of the whole world.
49 And the whole world lieth in sin, and groaneth under darkness and under the bondage of sin.
50 And by this you may know they are under the bondage of sin, because they come not unto me.
51 For whoso cometh not unto me is under the bondage of sin.
52 And whoso receiveth not my voice is not acquainted with my voice, and is not of me.
53 And by this you may know the righteous from the wicked, and that the whole world groaneth under sin and darkness even now.

So there we have it. The Holy Ghost is not the same as the Spirit of the Lord.
The Light of Christ is not the same as the Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost.
Man is born with the Light of Christ but not the gift of the Holy Ghost.

I'm certain you're trying to debunk something that's been established in this article, but I'm not sure what. There is a Holy Ghost. There is the Light of Christ. Not all uses of "Spirit of the Lord" mean "light of Christ."

This is about as humorous a retort to whatever it is you're trying to thwart here as can be:

https://www.lds.org/topics/spirit-of-the-lord?lang=eng

righteousrepublic wrote: ↑May 15th, 2019, 12:14 am Joseph Fielding Smith says:
The Holy Ghost is a personage of Spirit, in the likeness of the Father and the Son. His mission is to instruct and enlighten; he bears witness of the truth, quickens the minds of those who have made covenants and reveals mysteries of the Kingdom of God.

He is a special messenger from the Father and the Son and carries out their will; but he is not sent to the world.

This is about as vague as your last post. So? So he's not sent to the world ..... ever? .... until the end? .... in the same capacity as Jesus? ... up until now? So what?

Posted: **May 15th, 2019, 9:21 pm**

Alaris wrote: ↑May 15th, 2019, 11:08 am
righteousrepublic wrote: ↑May 14th, 2019, 11:42 pm BTW, the spirit of the Lord is not the Holy Ghost. It is the Spirit of Christ, or the Light of Christ. See: Answers to Gospel Questions, Vol 5, pg 119. BTW, these five volumes are from Joseph Fielding Smith's own words, and not Gileadi.

Doctrine and Covenants 63
32 I, the Lord, am angry with the wicked; I am holding my Spirit from the inhabitants of the earth.
33 I have sworn in my wrath, and decreed wars upon the face of the earth, and the wicked shall slay the wicked, and fear shall come upon every man;
34 And the saints also shall hardly escape; nevertheless, I, the Lord, am with them, and will come down in heaven from the presence of my Father and consume the wicked with unquenchable fire.

1:33
33 And he that repents not, from him shall be taken even the light which he has received; for my Spirit shall not always strive with man, saith the Lord of Hosts.

D&C 84:45-53
45 For the word of the Lord is truth, and whatsoever is truth is light, and whatsoever is light is Spirit, even the Spirit of Jesus Christ.
46 And the Spirit giveth light to every man that cometh into the world; and the Spirit enlighteneth every man through the world, that hearkeneth to the voice of the Spirit.
47 And every one that hearkeneth to the voice of the Spirit cometh unto God, even the Father.
48 And the Father teacheth him of the covenant which he has renewed and confirmed upon you, which is confirmed upon you for your sakes, and not for your sakes only, but for the sake of the whole world.
49 And the whole world lieth in sin, and groaneth under darkness and under the bondage of sin.
50 And by this you may know they are under the bondage of sin, because they come not unto me.
51 For whoso cometh not unto me is under the bondage of sin.
52 And whoso receiveth not my voice is not acquainted with my voice, and is not of me.
53 And by this you may know the righteous from the wicked, and that the whole world groaneth under sin and darkness even now.

So there we have it. The Holy Ghost is not the same as the Spirit of the Lord.
The Light of Christ is not the same as the Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost.
Man is born with the Light of Christ but not the gift of the Holy Ghost.
I'm certain you're trying to debunk something that's been established in this article, but I'm not sure what. There is a Holy Ghost. There is the Light of Christ. Not all uses of "Spirit of the Lord" mean "light of Christ."

This is about as humorous a retort to whatever it is you're trying to thwart here as can be:

https://www.lds.org/topics/spirit-of-the-lord?lang=eng

righteousrepublic wrote: ↑May 15th, 2019, 12:14 am Joseph Fielding Smith says:
The Holy Ghost is a personage of Spirit, in the likeness of the Father and the Son. His mission is to instruct and enlighten; he bears witness of the truth, quickens the minds of those who have made covenants and reveals mysteries of the Kingdom of God.

He is a special messenger from the Father and the Son and carries out their will; but he is not sent to the world.
This is about as vague as your last post. So? So he's not sent to the world ..... ever? .... until the end? .... in the same capacity as Jesus? ... up until now? So what?

It is what it is.

However, here is more on the Holy Ghost, Spirit of God and the Light of Christ. This is not vague.

http://www.mikebaird.net/Church/GospelT ... yGhost.pdf

Here is that which Joseph Fielding Smith had to say about the Holy Ghost ever gaining a body:

AVOID SPECULATING ON DESTINY OF THE SPIRIT. The Holy Ghost is not a personage with a body of flesh and bones, and in this respect differs from the Father and the Son. The Holy Ghost is not a woman, as some have declared, and therefore is not the mother of Jesus Christ.

It is a waste of time to speculate in relation to his jurisdiction. We know what has been revealed and that the Holy Ghost, sometimes spoken of as the Holy Spirit, and Comforter, is the third member of the Godhead, and that he, being in perfect harmony with the Father and the Son, reveals to man by the spirit of revelation and prophecy the truths of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Our great duty is so to live that we may be led constantly in light and truth by this Comforter so that we may not be deceived by the many false spirits that are in the world.

I have never troubled myself about the Holy Ghost whether he will sometime have a body or not because it is not in any way essential to my salvation. He is a member of the Godhead, with great power and authority, with a most wonderful mission which must be performed by a spirit. This has satisfied me without delving into mysteries that would be of no particular benefit.

https://archive.org/stream/Doctrines-of ... L_djvu.txt

Posted: **May 16th, 2019, 6:40 pm**

righteousrepublic wrote: ↑May 15th, 2019, 9:21 pm
Alaris wrote: ↑May 15th, 2019, 11:08 am
righteousrepublic wrote: ↑May 14th, 2019, 11:42 pm BTW, the spirit of the Lord is not the Holy Ghost. It is the Spirit of Christ, or the Light of Christ. See: Answers to Gospel Questions, Vol 5, pg 119. BTW, these five volumes are from Joseph Fielding Smith's own words, and not Gileadi.

Doctrine and Covenants 63
32 I, the Lord, am angry with the wicked; I am holding my Spirit from the inhabitants of the earth.
33 I have sworn in my wrath, and decreed wars upon the face of the earth, and the wicked shall slay the wicked, and fear shall come upon every man;
34 And the saints also shall hardly escape; nevertheless, I, the Lord, am with them, and will come down in heaven from the presence of my Father and consume the wicked with unquenchable fire.

1:33
33 And he that repents not, from him shall be taken even the light which he has received; for my Spirit shall not always strive with man, saith the Lord of Hosts.

D&C 84:45-53
45 For the word of the Lord is truth, and whatsoever is truth is light, and whatsoever is light is Spirit, even the Spirit of Jesus Christ.
46 And the Spirit giveth light to every man that cometh into the world; and the Spirit enlighteneth every man through the world, that hearkeneth to the voice of the Spirit.
47 And every one that hearkeneth to the voice of the Spirit cometh unto God, even the Father.
48 And the Father teacheth him of the covenant which he has renewed and confirmed upon you, which is confirmed upon you for your sakes, and not for your sakes only, but for the sake of the whole world.
49 And the whole world lieth in sin, and groaneth under darkness and under the bondage of sin.
50 And by this you may know they are under the bondage of sin, because they come not unto me.
51 For whoso cometh not unto me is under the bondage of sin.
52 And whoso receiveth not my voice is not acquainted with my voice, and is not of me.
53 And by this you may know the righteous from the wicked, and that the whole world groaneth under sin and darkness even now.

So there we have it. The Holy Ghost is not the same as the Spirit of the Lord.
The Light of Christ is not the same as the Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost.
Man is born with the Light of Christ but not the gift of the Holy Ghost.
I'm certain you're trying to debunk something that's been established in this article, but I'm not sure what. There is a Holy Ghost. There is the Light of Christ. Not all uses of "Spirit of the Lord" mean "light of Christ."

This is about as humorous a retort to whatever it is you're trying to thwart here as can be:

https://www.lds.org/topics/spirit-of-the-lord?lang=eng

righteousrepublic wrote: ↑May 15th, 2019, 12:14 am Joseph Fielding Smith says:
The Holy Ghost is a personage of Spirit, in the likeness of the Father and the Son. His mission is to instruct and enlighten; he bears witness of the truth, quickens the minds of those who have made covenants and reveals mysteries of the Kingdom of God.

He is a special messenger from the Father and the Son and carries out their will; but he is not sent to the world.
This is about as vague as your last post. So? So he's not sent to the world ..... ever? .... until the end? .... in the same capacity as Jesus? ... up until now? So what?
It is what it is.

However, here is more on the Holy Ghost, Spirit of God and the Light of Christ. This is not vague.

http://www.mikebaird.net/Church/GospelT ... yGhost.pdf

Here is that which Joseph Fielding Smith had to say about the Holy Ghost ever gaining a body:

AVOID SPECULATING ON DESTINY OF THE SPIRIT. The Holy Ghost is not a personage with a body of flesh and bones, and in this respect differs from the Father and the Son. The Holy Ghost is not a woman, as some have declared, and therefore is not the mother of Jesus Christ.

It is a waste of time to speculate in relation to his jurisdiction. We know what has been revealed and that the Holy Ghost, sometimes spoken of as the Holy Spirit, and Comforter, is the third member of the Godhead, and that he, being in perfect harmony with the Father and the Son, reveals to man by the spirit of revelation and prophecy the truths of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Our great duty is so to live that we may be led constantly in light and truth by this Comforter so that we may not be deceived by the many false spirits that are in the world.

I have never troubled myself about the Holy Ghost whether he will sometime have a body or not because it is not in any way essential to my salvation. He is a member of the Godhead, with great power and authority, with a most wonderful mission which must be performed by a spirit. This has satisfied me without delving into mysteries that would be of no particular benefit.

https://archive.org/stream/Doctrines-of ... L_djvu.txt

Hey thanks for sharing this! This is truly a gem indeed! "Avoid speculating on the destiny of the spirit." "It is a waste of time" yet he has "never troubled [himself]" and he clearly states he's never "delved into the mysteries." Question Apostle Joseph Fielding Smith: How on Earth could you possibly know whether investigating the destiny of the Spirit is a waste of time if you yourself have never troubled yourself?

I have troubled myself. Greatly. I have applied the promises to given to all of us that if we shall seek we shall find. If you're looking for a reason to not seek, you've found it RR. Congratulations. Perhaps you will stop troubling yourself now. You will not get me to stop troubling myself however.

I truly wonder if this work by an Apostle of the Lord is the fulfillment of the warnings of Isaiah 28 and the "Spirit of deep sleep" - I truly hope so as I don't want this to be a future happening , and I feel strongly none of our current apostles and certainly not our prophet qualify for Isaiah 28. This absolutely qualifies. You can lambast me for saying that, but this whole excerpt, if it truly is full JFS, is the spirit of sleep from a position of pride. "I haven't looked but I can speak of what I don't know or understand and definitively state that this is a waste of time." Perhaps this is the same spirit with which JFS engaged when he stated in the same "Doctrines of Salvation" that we would never go to the moon (which was later redacted.)

I know you are older RR, and I don't say that to deride you but I do wonder how many folks who are older have been impacted by this. "Doctrines of Salvation" is certainly not a standard any more. JFS came up in a thread about MMP months ago, and someone chimed in and said JFS had an adverse impact on church education. I'll see if I can find that post when I have time. I'll just close with these scriptures about delving into mysteries and hope you can feel the Spirit of this. Remember, a good spirit teaches you to pray just as an evil spirit teaches you to not pray. Similarly, a good spirit teaches you to seek and an evil spirit teaches you to say "We have enough."

2 Nephi 28:29 Wo be unto him that shall say: We have received the word of God, and we need no more of the word of God, for we have enough!
30 For behold, thus saith the Lord God: I will give unto the children of men line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little; and blessed are those who hearken unto my precepts, and lend an ear unto my counsel, for they shall learn wisdom; for unto him that receiveth I will give more; and from them that shall say, We have enough, from them shall be taken away even that which they have.
31 Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men, save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost.

Ah the irony of just those three verses! Don't speculate on the Holy Ghost - we have enough knowledge about him! !@

Alma 12:10 And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full.
11 And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell.

So when do we say "We have enough?" When we know everything. Has that happened with you yet? Perhaps most importantly:

1 Nephi 10:17 And it came to pass after I, Nephi, having heard all the words of my father, concerning the things which he saw in a vision, and also the things which he spake by the power of the Holy Ghost, which power he received by faith on the Son of God—and the Son of God was the Messiah who should come—I, Nephi, was desirous also that I might see, and hear, and know of these things, by the power of the Holy Ghost, which is the gift of God unto all those who diligently seek him, as well in times of old as in the time that he should manifest himself unto the children of men.
18 For he is the same yesterday, today, and forever; and the way is prepared for all men from the foundation of the world, if it so be that they repent and come unto him.
19 For he that diligently seeketh shall find; and the mysteries of God shall be unfolded unto them, by the power of the Holy Ghost, as well in these times as in times of old, and as well in times of old as in times to come; wherefore, the course of the Lord is one eternal round.
20 Therefore remember, O man, for all thy doings thou shalt be brought into judgment.
21 Wherefore, if ye have sought to do wickedly in the days of your probation, then ye are found unclean before the judgment-seat of God; and no unclean thing can dwell with God; wherefore, ye must be cast off forever.
22 And the Holy Ghost giveth authority that I should speak these things, and deny them not.

Dang! Count how many times Nephi references the Holy Ghost. To whom are the mysteries available? Who should seek them? When should we stop? All these answers are clear. What happens when we say, "We have enough mysteries and need no more mystery?" The above verses are leading up to Nephi's great revelation by, the Spirit who talks to him as a man talketh to another.

This truly is an incredible find RR - though I suspect for different reasons to me than to you. I like to believe all our apostles were wonderful and none could go anywhere near becoming a "Judas" but I can bear solemn testimony that who the Holy Ghost is and what his destiny is not only matters but it matters to your salvation.

Edit:

I should clarify one point: Seeking the mysteries does not equal "Speculation"

Edit edit: i shared his post with my wife and she wisely stated this reads like opinion and that we don't know what the circumstance was that may have led him to write that. Perhaps the many claiming to be the OMAS were springing up at this time.

Still, obviously I'm a bit more zealous and passionate not only about the topic but the spirit of telling folks they shouldn't seek the mysteries is contrary to the foundation of our church and our most sacred scriptures.

Posted: **May 16th, 2019, 10:58 pm**

Alaris wrote: ↑May 16th, 2019, 6:40 pmStill, obviously I'm a bit more zealous and passionate not only about the topic but the spirit of telling folks they shouldn't seek the mysteries is contrary to the foundation of our church and our most sacred scriptures.

Feel free to do as you like. I have already proven that the Holy Ghost is not the Davidic Servant. What other mystery should we discuss?

righteousrepublic wrote: Questions: is the Holy Ghost the offspring of David? Who is the root and offspring of David, Christ or the Holy Ghost?

Rev 22:16
16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Isa. 53:2
2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

Rev. 5:5
5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David (Jesus Christ), hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

Isa. 11:10
10 ¶ And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

Jesus says, "enter into my rest" therefore, the root of Jesse is Jesus.

The Holy Ghost is neither the root of Jesse nor the offspring of David. This is for sure and for certain. Thus, he cannot be the Davidic Servant either.

The Davidic Servant has to be of the lineage of David; the Holy Ghost doesn't fit this narrative. In attempting to make something out of nothing is what Joseph Fielding Smith means by delving into mysteries that have no relevancy.

Here is a mystery: How does one make black coal bright red? Answer: by putting it into a fire, otherwise, it remains black. Wishing it was red and pretending it is red, doesn't render it red.

Posted: **May 17th, 2019, 12:11 am**

righteousrepublic wrote: ↑May 16th, 2019, 10:58 pm
Alaris wrote: ↑May 16th, 2019, 6:40 pmStill, obviously I'm a bit more zealous and passionate not only about the topic but the spirit of telling folks they shouldn't seek the mysteries is contrary to the foundation of our church and our most sacred scriptures.
Feel free to do as you like. I have already proven that the Holy Ghost is not the Davidic Servant. What other mystery should we discuss?

righteousrepublic wrote: Questions: is the Holy Ghost the offspring of David? Who is the root and offspring of David, Christ or the Holy Ghost?

Rev 22:16
16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Isa. 53:2
2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

Rev. 5:5
5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David (Jesus Christ), hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

Isa. 11:10
10 ¶ And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

Jesus says, "enter into my rest" therefore, the root of Jesse is Jesus.

The Holy Ghost is neither the root of Jesse nor the offspring of David. This is for sure and for certain. Thus, he cannot be the Davidic Servant either.

The Davidic Servant has to be of the lineage of David; the Holy Ghost doesn't fit this narrative. In attempting to make something out of nothing is what Joseph Fielding Smith means by delving into mysteries that have no relevancy.

Here is a mystery: How does one make black coal bright red? Answer: by putting it into a fire, otherwise, it remains black. Wishing it was red and pretending it is red, doesn't render it red.

You proved the Davidic Servant isn't the Holy Ghost with yet another another another series of scriptures that only shows you do not understand them . you should spend more time seeking the mysteries rather than claim you've "proven" what they aren't.

D&C 113
5 What is the root of Jesse spoken of in the 10th verse of the 11th chapter?
6 Behold, thus saith the Lord, it is a descendant of Jesse, as well as of Joseph, unto whom rightly belongs the priesthood, and the keys of the kingdom, for an ensign, and for the gathering of my people in the last days.

Posted: **May 17th, 2019, 12:14 am**

Alaris wrote: ↑May 16th, 2019, 6:40 pmI know you are older RR, and I don't say that to deride you but I do wonder how many folks who are older have been impacted by this. "Doctrines of Salvation" is certainly not a standard any more. JFS came up in a thread about MMP months ago, and someone chimed in and said JFS had an adverse impact on church education. I'll see if I can find that post when I have time. I'll just close with these scriptures about delving into mysteries and hope you can feel the Spirit of this. Remember, a good spirit teaches you to pray just as an evil spirit teaches you to not pray. Similarly, a good spirit teaches you to seek and an evil spirit teaches you to say "We have enough."

2 Nephi 28:29 Wo be unto him that shall say: We have received the word of God, and we need no more of the word of God, for we have enough!
30 For behold, thus saith the Lord God: I will give unto the children of men line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little; and blessed are those who hearken unto my precepts, and lend an ear unto my counsel, for they shall learn wisdom; for unto him that receiveth I will give more; and from them that shall say, We have enough, from them shall be taken away even that which they have.
31 Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men, save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost. I am in full agreement with these verses. I fully believe they say what I have come to know is truth. Pay close to attention to verse 31, however, this is most meaningful to those seeking truth. To believe the Holy Ghost is the Davidic Servant doesn't sway in favor of learning more, for it is not doctrine; it is not canon. The Lord says to hearken unto HIS precepts and his Counsel, not the precepts or counsel from someone on the internet. It is false doctrine until the Lord, himself, reveals it to me. I have already proven this non-precept to be in error. What you believe does not have to be believed by anyone else according to the Lord, himself. Yes, there is more truth in those scriptures than is realized by a lot of people. I, for one, believe them fully. Now, if you will, show me anywhere in scripture where the Lord, in his own words, says the Holy Ghost is the Davidic Servant.

Ah the irony of just those three verses! Don't speculate on the Holy Ghost - we have enough knowledge about him! !@

Alma 12:10 And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full.
11 And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell. Ah, wonderful scriptures, absolutely awesome. But, lets remember that even mysteries are according to his precepts and counsel.

So when do we say "We have enough?" When we know everything. Has that happened with you yet? Perhaps most importantly: I've read the Book of Mormon over twenty times, cover to cover, and I'm still learning, even when I research for answers to questions on the internet I'm still learning more and more. I love the BOM.

1 Nephi 10:17 And it came to pass after I, Nephi, having heard all the words of my father, concerning the things which he saw in a vision, and also the things which he spake by the power of the Holy Ghost, which power he received by faith on the Son of God—and the Son of God was the Messiah who should come—I, Nephi, was desirous also that I might see, and hear, and know of these things, by the power of the Holy Ghost, which is the gift of God unto all those who diligently seek him, as well in times of old as in the time that he should manifest himself unto the children of men.
18 For he is the same yesterday, today, and forever; and the way is prepared for all men from the foundation of the world, if it so be that they repent and come unto him.
19 For he that diligently seeketh shall find; and the mysteries of God shall be unfolded unto them, by the power of the Holy Ghost, as well in these times as in times of old, and as well in times of old as in times to come; wherefore, the course of the Lord is one eternal round.
20 Therefore remember, O man, for all thy doings thou shalt be brought into judgment.
21 Wherefore, if ye have sought to do wickedly in the days of your probation, then ye are found unclean before the judgment-seat of God; and no unclean thing can dwell with God; wherefore, ye must be cast off forever.
22 And the Holy Ghost giveth authority that I should speak these things, and deny them not.

Dang! Count how many times Nephi references the Holy Ghost. To whom are the mysteries available? Who should seek them? When should we stop? All these answers are clear. What happens when we say, "We have enough mysteries and need no more mystery?" The above verses are leading up to Nephi's great revelation by, the Spirit who talks to him as a man talketh to another. Just think, to some who know very little about Christ or Father or anything to do with the gospel, it is all a mystery to them. Mysteries do not have to be huge, they can be very simple for those who seek, but mysteries they are until they practice that which they learn, then mysteries are fruitful to them, and they now have knowledge. Even the Holy Ghost is a mystery to many, many people.

This truly is an incredible find RR - though I suspect for different reasons to me than to you. I like to believe all our apostles were wonderful and none could go anywhere near becoming a "Judas" but I can bear solemn testimony that who the Holy Ghost is and what his destiny is not only matters but it matters to your salvation. But he is not the Davidic Servant. And this has no bearing on my salvation, none. In this a bear testimony. I have felt the Holy Ghost many times in my life and that is all that is important. The Davidic Servant will not come in my lifetime, and I'm nearly 72. Yet, I love the Holy Ghost and his role as the third member of the Godhead, he who bears witness of the Father and Son, he who overshadowed Mary and she conceived in her worm the Son of God. Now how in the world can you top that? What a mystery that could have been. Wow.

Edit:

I should clarify one point: Seeking the mysteries does not equal "Speculation" But claiming the Holy Ghost as the Davidic Servant is.

The same God that said to seek mysteries alse said this:
Deut. 29:29 The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

1 Cor 13:2
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

Alma 12:9
9 And now Alma began to expound these things unto him, saying: It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him. Do you see the dichotomy here?

Edit edit: i shared his post with my wife and she wisely stated this reads like opinion and that we don't know what the circumstance was that may have led him to write that. Perhaps the many claiming to be the OMAS were springing up at this time.

Still, obviously I'm a bit more zealous and passionate not only about the topic but the spirit of telling folks they shouldn't seek the mysteries is contrary to the foundation of our church and our most sacred scriptures. But, you now know that even if your mystery were true, you should consider Alma 12:9. This is not common knowledge that should be passed out like candy according to that verse, right? That verse is, likewise, a sacred scripture that ought to be highly internalized and adhered to. Like I said, I've read the book many, many times and am still learning.

Posted: **May 17th, 2019, 12:19 am**

righteousrepublic wrote: ↑May 17th, 2019, 12:14 am
Alaris wrote: ↑May 16th, 2019, 6:40 pmI know you are older RR, and I don't say that to deride you but I do wonder how many folks who are older have been impacted by this. "Doctrines of Salvation" is certainly not a standard any more. JFS came up in a thread about MMP months ago, and someone chimed in and said JFS had an adverse impact on church education. I'll see if I can find that post when I have time. I'll just close with these scriptures about delving into mysteries and hope you can feel the Spirit of this. Remember, a good spirit teaches you to pray just as an evil spirit teaches you to not pray. Similarly, a good spirit teaches you to seek and an evil spirit teaches you to say "We have enough."

2 Nephi 28:29 Wo be unto him that shall say: We have received the word of God, and we need no more of the word of God, for we have enough!
30 For behold, thus saith the Lord God: I will give unto the children of men line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little; and blessed are those who hearken unto my precepts, and lend an ear unto my counsel, for they shall learn wisdom; for unto him that receiveth I will give more; and from them that shall say, We have enough, from them shall be taken away even that which they have.
31 Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men, save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost. I am in full agreement with these verses. I fully believe they say what I have come to know is truth. Pay close to attention to verse 31, however, this is most meaningful to those seeking truth. To believe the Holy Ghost is the Davidic Servant doesn't sway in favor of learning more, for it is not doctrine; it is not canon. The Lord says to hearken unto HIS precepts and his Counsel, not the precepts or counsel from someone on the internet. It is false doctrine until the Lord, himself, reveals it to me. I have already proven this non-precept to be in error. What you believe does not have to be believed by anyone else according to the Lord, himself. Yes, there is more truth in those scriptures than is realized by a lot of people. I, for one, believe them fully. Now, if you will, show me anywhere in scripture where the Lord, in his own words, says the Holy Ghost is the Davidic Servant.

Ah the irony of just those three verses! Don't speculate on the Holy Ghost - we have enough knowledge about him! !@

Alma 12:10 And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full.
11 And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell. Ah, wonderful scriptures, absolutely awesome. But, lets remember that even mysteries are according to his precepts and counsel.

So when do we say "We have enough?" When we know everything. Has that happened with you yet? Perhaps most importantly: I've read the Book of Mormon over twenty times, cover to cover, and I'm still learning, even when I research for answers to questions on the internet I'm still learning more and more. I love the BOM.

1 Nephi 10:17 And it came to pass after I, Nephi, having heard all the words of my father, concerning the things which he saw in a vision, and also the things which he spake by the power of the Holy Ghost, which power he received by faith on the Son of God—and the Son of God was the Messiah who should come—I, Nephi, was desirous also that I might see, and hear, and know of these things, by the power of the Holy Ghost, which is the gift of God unto all those who diligently seek him, as well in times of old as in the time that he should manifest himself unto the children of men.
18 For he is the same yesterday, today, and forever; and the way is prepared for all men from the foundation of the world, if it so be that they repent and come unto him.
19 For he that diligently seeketh shall find; and the mysteries of God shall be unfolded unto them, by the power of the Holy Ghost, as well in these times as in times of old, and as well in times of old as in times to come; wherefore, the course of the Lord is one eternal round.
20 Therefore remember, O man, for all thy doings thou shalt be brought into judgment.
21 Wherefore, if ye have sought to do wickedly in the days of your probation, then ye are found unclean before the judgment-seat of God; and no unclean thing can dwell with God; wherefore, ye must be cast off forever.
22 And the Holy Ghost giveth authority that I should speak these things, and deny them not.

Dang! Count how many times Nephi references the Holy Ghost. To whom are the mysteries available? Who should seek them? When should we stop? All these answers are clear. What happens when we say, "We have enough mysteries and need no more mystery?" The above verses are leading up to Nephi's great revelation by, the Spirit who talks to him as a man talketh to another. Just think, to some who know very little about Christ or Father or anything to do with the gospel, it is all a mystery to them. Mysteries do not have to be huge, they can be very simple for those who seek, but mysteries they are until they practice that which they learn, then mysteries are fruitful to them, and they now have knowledge. Even the Holy Ghost is a mystery to many, many people.

This truly is an incredible find RR - though I suspect for different reasons to me than to you. I like to believe all our apostles were wonderful and none could go anywhere near becoming a "Judas" but I can bear solemn testimony that who the Holy Ghost is and what his destiny is not only matters but it matters to your salvation. But he is not the Davidic Servant. And this has no bearing on my salvation, none. In this a bear testimony. I have felt the Holy Ghost many times in my life and that is all that is important. The Davidic Servant will not come in my lifetime, and I'm nearly 72. Yet, I love the Holy Ghost and his role as the third member of the Godhead, he who bears witness of the Father and Son, he who overshadowed Mary and she conceived in her worm the Son of God. Now how in the world can you top that? What a mystery that could have been. Wow.

Edit:

I should clarify one point: Seeking the mysteries does not equal "Speculation" But claiming the Holy Ghost as the Davidic Servant is.

The same God that said to seek mysteries alse said this:
Deut. 29:29 The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

1 Cor 13:2
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

Alma 12:9
9 And now Alma began to expound these things unto him, saying: It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him. Do you see the dichotomy here?

Edit edit: i shared his post with my wife and she wisely stated this reads like opinion and that we don't know what the circumstance was that may have led him to write that. Perhaps the many claiming to be the OMAS were springing up at this time.

Still, obviously I'm a bit more zealous and passionate not only about the topic but the spirit of telling folks they shouldn't seek the mysteries is contrary to the foundation of our church and our most sacred scriptures. But, you now know that even if your mystery were true, you should consider Alma 12:9. This is not common knowledge that should be passed out like candy according to that verse, right? That verse is, likewise, a sacred scripture that ought to be highly internalized and adhered to. Like I said, I've read the book many, many times and am still learning.

That's a great point about Alma 12:9. Remember it is the spirit that commands yay or nay and not you. I pray after every little thing I post to seek what I should or should not post. Though I am I'm imperfect in my execution I seek diligently to share what I can and withhold what I must.

I probably don't cite enough that coming to knowledge of the truth of the Davidic Servant being the Holy Ghost was first spiritual. I denied it for two years. When I finally showed a smidgen of courage I still asked God for yet another witness. Immediately thereafter Abijah gave his witness before I gave my own. Since then the many witnesses after the trial of my imperfect faith have come
you've added many yourself in your attempt to tell us all you know this can't be which is quite an arrogant stance to declare something can't be while you're citing apostles who warn us not to speculate (that's speculation.) Take care in what you choose to fight against. You've shared Many scriptures that have helped reaffirm my witness and show clearly your knowing what can't be is based on a Sandy foundation

Can you honestly say you've approached this in humility or do you base all the time spent here trusting your own prior knowledge that betrays you at nearly every turn?

LDS Freedom Forum

The Davidic Servant is The Holy Ghost

Re: The Davidic Servant is The Holy Ghost

Re: The Davidic Servant is The Holy Ghost

Re: The Davidic Servant is The Holy Ghost

Re: The Davidic Servant is The Holy Ghost

Re: The Davidic Servant is The Holy Ghost

Re: The Davidic Servant is The Holy Ghost

Re: The Davidic Servant is The Holy Ghost

Re: The Davidic Servant is The Holy Ghost

Re: The Davidic Servant is The Holy Ghost

Re: The Davidic Servant is The Holy Ghost

Re: The Davidic Servant is The Holy Ghost

Re: The Davidic Servant is The Holy Ghost

Re: The Davidic Servant is The Holy Ghost

Re: The Davidic Servant is The Holy Ghost

Re: The Davidic Servant is The Holy Ghost

Re: The Davidic Servant is The Holy Ghost

Re: The Davidic Servant is not The Holy Ghost

Re: The Davidic Servant is not The Holy Ghost

Re: The Davidic Servant is The Holy Ghost

Re: The Davidic Servant is not The Holy Ghost

Re: The Davidic Servant is The Holy Ghost

Re: The Davidic Servant is not The Holy Ghost

Re: The Davidic Servant is not The Holy Ghost

Re: The Davidic Servant is The Holy Ghost

Re: The Davidic Servant is The Holy Ghost