LDS Freedom Forum

Posted: **May 10th, 2019, 1:03 pm**

righteousrepublic wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 11:49 am Daniel 3:25
25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

Abraham 3:27
27 And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And another answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first.

Revelation 14:14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

Revelation 1:13
13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

Hebrews 7:3
3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

Now compare the next verse and see if the word "like" denotes the same as the verses above.

Daniel 7:13
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In Daniel 3:25 we know the fourth man was Jesus
In Abraham 3:27 we know it was Jehovah, he being the Son of Man going by the name of Jesus
In Revelation 14:14 we know it is Jesus Christ/Jehovah
In Revelation 1:13 it is Jesus Christ
In Hebrews 7:3 it is the Son of God, even Jehovah/Christ
In Daniel 7:13, as in all the other verses, I believe, the word "like" is referring to Jesus Christ, thus it is Jesus who comes down and the Ancient of days, Adam One, is brought fourth to speak with Adam Two. See: 1 Corinthians 15:45

We do, do we? Fact: Joseph Smith kept many truths from the saints because they were latched on to their traditional views.

Abraham 3:27 is absolutely not Jesus Christ. I've written an article on this fact - Abraham and The Davidic Servant

Jesus was not chosen to be our Savior at the creation of this world - this is but one of many worlds under his domain. The choice in Abraham 3 is whom shall I send to be the Lesser God of Israel? There was never a choice that Elohim made between the devil and Jesus. It was always Jesus from the beginning of His dominion which is worlds. Otherwise, would there be a choice for each of His worlds under His dominion? Nope. The "Lord" in Abraham 3 is Jesus Christ. The one like unto God is Michael. The one like unto the Son of Man is The Holy Ghost.

Rev 14:14 - how do "We" know this exactly?

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

Notice the "golden crown" - who has a golden crown? That's right - the High Priest of Israel. It reads "Holiness to the Lord" - and this office points to the Lesser God. The Lesser Priesthood points to the Lesser God. He is the one "LIKE" unto the Son of Man. There's more here to point to the Lesser God than the Greater. In fact, there's only one of these scriptures you've quoted that is clearly Jesus Christ. Most of them are quite clearly The Holy Ghost.

Revelation 1:13 - agree.

Hebrews 7:3 - let's look at the context

1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
3 For this Melchisedec was ordained a priest after the order of the Son of God, which order was without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days nor end of life; and all those who are ordained unto this priesthood are made like unto the Son of God, abiding a priest continually.

You said "it is the Son of God" - the whole point of the scripture is to illustrate how men are made like unto the Son of God - men like the Holy Ghost / Davidic Servant. Did you read the three priesthoods sermon linked on the prior page here? Joseph Smith is expounding on Hebrews 7! He talks of this process and then says the Holy Ghost is on this process, where if he proves successful, he will go on to ... you know what? nevermind. I hope you can at least consider the fact you're posting in a thread that has 12 pages of history you've obviously not considered.

I've already addressed Daniel 7. Jesus is not brought to Adam. Adam is brought to Jesus. Adam does not give dominion to Jesus. Jesus gives dominion to Adam. The Holy Ghost, however, is becoming a king and a priest like Melchizedek (see that sermon on the prior page - I'll link it again here because I'm nice like that:)

https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/words-jose ... /27-august

^ This is the article that expounds upon Hebrews 7. If you read this carefully, Abraham became king and priest, so he is also ahead of The Holy Ghost in the heavenly hierarchy. In fact all seven dispensation heads are kings and priests. This is a new king and priest.

Allow me to end with Daniel 3 - your first reference shall be last here, and for good reason. I will admit that I sometimes get frustrated in chatting with you righteousrepublic. However, nobody in these forums has caused me to recheck my references, my knowledge, and my logic train like you do. You cause me to ask myself, "How do I know this?" and "How can I help folks (who are open minded enough -"can't be" is a self-limiter) see this? With Daniel 3, I know that "we know" that the fourth person in the furnace is Jesus Christ is a common interpretation of this scripture. However, it's wrong. Again, this is why the "why" is so very important. The Angel of the Lord is the protector of Israel. He meets Joshua on the fields of Jericho - saves Abraham, saves Isaac, saves Jerusalem more than once. But Jesus goes into the furnace with shadrach meschach and abednego?? - Um .... that does not align at all. But you know what? I've never looked into this before. So what are the chances there is any evidence that this one "like the Son of God" is actually the Angel of the Lord?

25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

Well, after just a quick bit of googling, there is a lot of evidence this fourth figure is actually the Angel of the Lord. Let's start with just the KJV and see if there's evidence.

Daniel 3:28 Then Nebuchadnezzar spake, and said, Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego, who hath sent his angel, and delivered his servants that trusted in him, and have changed the king’s word, and yielded their bodies, that they might not serve nor worship any god, except their own God.

Whoops! Now that aligns with all the other goings on in the Old Testament. What does the Lord Jehovah tell his servant when he awakens him?

Isaiah 51:10 Art thou not it which hath dried the sea, the waters of the great deep; that hath made the depths of the sea a way for the ransomed to pass over?

When the Lord awakens the Davidic Servant in mortality, he gives him a few keys to awaken him to his identity. Verse 10 is to remind him that he is the Angel of the Lord - protector of Israel. "Destroyer" of the enemies of God (sort of like the Lord who wears red and says he's trodden the winepress (executed the wrath of the Almighty God) alone. Jesus could not make such a claim. Have you read the Old Testament? There is one destroyer. And he is not Jesus but the lesser YHWH (Lesser YHWH and YAHUEL are titles of the Angel of the Lord in 3 Enoch).

Exodus 23:20 ¶ Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.
21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.
22 But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.
23 For mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off.

YAH is certainly in the name of the Angel of the Lord ( The Name of the Angel of the Lord ), but what about "Word of God?" - might there be some crossover there too? HALLELU - JAH ... JAH / YAH is in YAHWEH and YAHUEL ... could HALLELUJAH be a shout to both the lesser God (in whom the LORD says His name resides) and the Greater God?

Back to Daniel 3 - this chapter is much lengthier in the "New American Bible" which is a new translation of the Vulgate.
...

NAB Daniel 3 ( - http://www.usccb.org/bible/daniel/3 - )
47 The flames rose forty-nine cubits above the furnace,
48 and spread out, burning the Chaldeans that it caught around the furnace.
49 But the angel of the Lord went down into the furnace with Azariah and his companions, drove the fiery flames out of the furnace,
50 and made the inside of the furnace as though a dew-laden breeze were blowing through it. The fire in no way touched them or caused them pain or harm.
51 Then these three in the furnace with one voice sang, glorifying and blessing God:

I appreciate your intent to keep this discussion free from spirit of contention - as long as we can keep the Spirit

....

Posted: **May 10th, 2019, 1:36 pm**

Revelation 19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia (HALLELUYAH; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.
5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Verses one through nine explain verse 10. YAHUEL - the Angel of the Lord of whom the Lord YAHUWEH said, "My name is in him," has praises sung to him. Praise be to YAH. How can this be? Again, looking at the symbols helps uncover this mystery. Consider the symbolism of the Fall and Spring and the two Priesthoods that align to these two seasons in the Salt Lake City Temple.

: moon-phases.jpeg (190.88 KiB) Viewed 438 times

Quite simply, the fall festivals - that are unfulfilled - are represented by the Western Towers which align to the Aaronic Priesthood. This is the Priesthood of Judgement and Destruction. Many associate judgement and destruction to the Book of Revelation, and rightly so. However, laced throughout the Book of Revelation is this tale of a man becoming a God. The angel who delivers the message to John is worshiped by John twice. For crying out loud, think about that.

Could the Lesser God be called "Lamb" in verses 7 and 9? Think on these two sets of towers and how they align to the fall and spring - the two equinoxes of fall and spring where the days and nights are equal - almost like a scale of Justice (Judgement & Destruction) and Mercy (Forgiveness & Salvation). OK think on all of this paragraph while reading these verses:

Exodus 29:1 And this is the thing that thou shalt do unto them to hallow them, to minister unto me in the priest’s office ...
37 Seven days thou shalt make an atonement for the altar, and sanctify it; and it shall be an altar most holy: whatsoever toucheth the altar shall be holy.
38 ¶ Now this is that which thou shalt offer upon the altar; two lambs of the first year day by day continually.
39 The one lamb thou shalt offer in the morning; and the other lamb thou shalt offer at even:

There's that number seven again that shows up throughout Isaiah & Revelation (and all over the scriptures.) For seven days - which is the number of levels through which mankind must ascend - for each of the seven days, a lamb is sacrificed in the morning and one is offered at evening. Just stop and think about that for a moment. Morning is represented by East (sun rises in the east, eastern towers of SLC temple which are Melchizedek) and spring where the creation comes to life. Evening is represented by the West as the sun sets in the West (and the western towers of the SLC temple which are Aaronic) Do you see!? *shakes reader* DO YOU SEE!?!!?

Now, pay attention to the part of these verses that always get glossed over that nobody seems to realize is a prophesy:

Mark 10:38 But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?
39 And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized:

The "baptism" of the two witnesses (remember baptism is a symbol of death and resurrection)

Revelation 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Verse 19 is the fulfillment of Yom Kippur - where the one to whom the office of High Priest of Israel points - the Lesser God of Israel - the Holy Ghost - the Davidic (ROYAL bloodline) Servant - ascends and receives the promised reward of the sixth promise of overcoming.

12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Yom Kippur is ALL ABOUT readying the High Priest of Israel so he may approach God and not be smitten. The temple of God in heaven is the actual Holy of Holies to which our Holy of Holies only points symbolically. The ark of the testament being seen in the temple of heaven not only suggests that the actual Holy of Holies has been opened but that everything that the ark represents has been fulfilled - the Day of Atonement & The Covenants between God and Israel.

Posted: **May 10th, 2019, 4:04 pm**

I forgot to add this link for further evidence the one "like the Son of God" in Daniel 3 is the Angel of the Lord:

http://www.evidenceunseen.com/bible-dif ... -an-angel/

Posted: **May 10th, 2019, 4:59 pm**

Alaris wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 1:03 pmWe do, do we? Fact: Joseph Smith kept many truths from the saints because they were latched on to their traditional views. What traditional views? The Book of Mormon wasn't even out for reading until 1830. And it is a certain fact that lot of what Joseph Smith thought he knew wasn't even canonized. So, again, what traditional views are we talking about? Are we to believe there are two different and conflicting gospels? If so, I'll stick with canonized scripture

Abraham 3:27 is absolutely not Jesus Christ. I've written an article on this fact - Abraham and The Davidic Servant Have you ever read Rocking Island? It was published in 1927. It was a fun read when I was a lad.

Jesus was not chosen to be our Savior at the creation of this world - this is but one of many worlds under his domain. The choice in Abraham 3 is whom shall I send to be the Lesser God of Israel? There was never a choice that Elohim made between the devil and Jesus. It was always Jesus from the beginning of His dominion which is worlds. Otherwise, would there be a choice for each of His worlds under His dominion? Nope. The "Lord" in Abraham 3 is Jesus Christ. The one like unto God is Michael. The one like unto the Son of Man is The Holy Ghost. I agree that Jehovah under the direction of Elohim, created worlds without number. He came to this earth because this is the only world where a certain group of people would crucify their God, the Jewish people.

The Lord is God the Father
The one like unto God is the First Born in Spirit, even Jehovah, the Only Begotten Son in the flesh,
The one like unto the Son of Man is Jesus, himself, as I have shown above.
The Holy Ghost is the Spirit, Spirit of God and is also the Holy Spirit of Promise. Acts 2:33

Holy Ghost
The third member of the Godhead (1 Jn. 5:7; D&C 20:28). He is a personage of Spirit, not having a body of flesh and bones (D&C 130:22). The Holy Ghost is often referred to as the Spirit, or the Spirit of God.

The Holy Ghost performs several vital roles in the plan of salvation. (1) He bears witness of the Father and the Son (1 Cor. 12:3; 3 Ne. 28:11; Ether 12:41). (2) He reveals the truth of all things (John 14:26; 16:13; Moro. 10:5; D&C 39:6). (3) He sanctifies those who have repented and become baptized (John 3:5; 3 Ne. 27:20; Moses 6:64–68). (4) He is the Holy Spirit of Promise (D&C 76:50–53; 132:7, 18–19, 26).

Rev 14:14 - how do "We" know this exactly? The heading tells us it is the Son of Man that will harvest the earth. Read 14-19...14 it is the Son of Man sitting on the cloud. 15 An angel tells him to thrust in his sickle. 16 he that sat on the cloud did thrust his sickle. Other angels came to help. This is how we know!

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

Notice the "golden crown" - who has a golden crown? That's right - the High Priest of Israel. It reads "Holiness to the Lord" - and this office points to the Lesser God. The Lesser Priesthood points to the Lesser God. He is the one "LIKE" unto the Son of Man. There's more here to point to the Lesser God than the Greater. In fact, there's only one of these scriptures you've quoted that is clearly Jesus Christ. Most of them are quite clearly The Holy Ghost. Sources?

In one instance it is Aaron that wears the Golden Crown, placed by Moses. Read Lev 8: In another instance, Jesus also wears a golden crown. Rev 14:14

Leviticus 8:9
9 And he put the mitre upon his (Aaron's) head; also upon the mitre, even upon his forefront, did he put the golden plate, the holy crown; as the Lord commanded Moses.

mitre = HEB the cap (or turban) upon his head, and he put the golden diadem, the holy crown, upon the front face of the cap (or turban).

Revelation 1:13 - agree.

Hebrews 7:3 - let's look at the context Having read the JST verse 3 does reveal that all who are made Priests are made like unto the Son of God. I hadn't read the reference before wwhen I made my claim. So, on this one, I stand corrected.

1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
3 For this Melchisedec was ordained a priest after the order of the Son of God, which order was without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days nor end of life; and all those who are ordained unto this priesthood are made like unto the Son of God, abiding a priest continually.

You said "it is the Son of God" - the whole point of the scripture is to illustrate how men are made like unto the Son of God - men like the Holy Ghost / Davidic Servant. Did you read the three priesthoods sermon linked on the prior page here? Joseph Smith is expounding on Hebrews 7! He talks of this process and then says the Holy Ghost is on this process, where if he proves successful, he will go on to ... you know what? nevermind. I hope you can at least consider the fact you're posting in a thread that has 12 pages of history you've obviously not considered.

I've already addressed Daniel 7. Jesus is not brought to Adam. Adam is brought to Jesus. Adam does not give dominion to Jesus. Jesus gives dominion to Adam. This is exactly the point I made. The Holy Ghost, however, is becoming a king and a priest like Melchizedek (see that sermon on the prior page - I'll link it again here because I'm nice like that:) Is this sermon canonized? If not, I have no interest in it.

https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/words-jose ... /27-august

^ This is the article that expounds upon Hebrews 7. If you read this carefully, Abraham became king and priest, so he is also ahead of The Holy Ghost in the heavenly hierarchy. In fact all seven dispensation heads are kings and priests. This is a new king and priest.

Allow me to end with Daniel 3 - your first reference shall be last here, and for good reason. I will admit that I sometimes get frustrated in chatting with you righteousrepublic. However, nobody in these forums has caused me to recheck my references, my knowledge, and my logic train like you do. You cause me to ask myself, "How do I know this?" and "How can I help folks (who are open minded enough -"can't be" is a self-limiter) see this? With Daniel 3, I know that "we know" that the fourth person in the furnace is Jesus Christ is a common interpretation of this scripture. However, it's wrong. Again, this is why the "why" is so very important. The Angel of the Lord is the protector of Israel. He meets Joshua on the fields of Jericho - saves Abraham, saves Isaac, saves Jerusalem more than once. But Jesus goes into the furnace with shadrach meschach and abednego?? - Um .... that does not align at all. But you know what? I've never looked into this before. So what are the chances there is any evidence that this one "like the Son of God" is actually the Angel of the Lord?

25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

Well, after just a quick bit of googling, there is a lot of evidence this fourth figure is actually the Angel of the Lord. Let's start with just the KJV and see if there's evidence.

Daniel 3:28 Then Nebuchadnezzar spake, and said, Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego, who hath sent his angel, and delivered his servants that trusted in him, and have changed the king’s word, and yielded their bodies, that they might not serve nor worship any god, except their own God. I'm good with that. Ii could have been an angel of the Lord, or a ministering angel.

Whoops! Now that aligns with all the other goings on in the Old Testament. What does the Lord Jehovah tell his servant when he awakens him? What servant?

Isaiah 51:10 Art thou not it which hath dried the sea, the waters of the great deep; that hath made the depths of the sea a way for the ransomed to pass over? It is the Lord, himself, not a servant, that did these things as a reference to Ex. 14:21 clearly reveals.

When the Lord awakens the Davidic Servant in mortality, he gives him a few keys to awaken him to his identity. Verse 10 is to remind him that he is the Angel of the Lord - protector of Israel. "Destroyer" of the enemies of God (sort of like the Lord who wears red and says he's trodden the winepress (executed the wrath of the Almighty God) alone. Jesus could not make such a claim. Have you read the Old Testament? There is one destroyer. And he is not Jesus but the lesser YHWH (Lesser YHWH and YAHUEL are titles of the Angel of the Lord in 3 Enoch).

Exodus 23:20 ¶ Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. This could be any angel sent by God, not having any relationship to David.
21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.
22 But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.
23 For mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off.

YAH is certainly in the name of the Angel of the Lord ( The Name of the Angel of the Lord ), but what about "Word of God?" - might there be some crossover there too? HALLELU - JAH ... JAH / YAH is in YAHWEH and YAHUEL ... could HALLELUJAH be a shout to both the lesser God (in whom the LORD says His name resides) and the Greater God?

Back to Daniel 3 - this chapter is much lengthier in the "New American Bible" which is a new translation of the Vulgate.
...

NAB Daniel 3 ( - http://www.usccb.org/bible/daniel/3 - )
47 The flames rose forty-nine cubits above the furnace,
48 and spread out, burning the Chaldeans that it caught around the furnace.
49 But the angel of the Lord went down into the furnace with Azariah and his companions, drove the fiery flames out of the furnace,
50 and made the inside of the furnace as though a dew-laden breeze were blowing through it. The fire in no way touched them or caused them pain or harm.
51 Then these three in the furnace with one voice sang, glorifying and blessing God:

I appreciate your intent to keep this discussion free from spirit of contention - as long as we can keep the Spirit I have no desire to contend, only to reveal what is written in the four standard works. I have read the New and Old Testaments five times. I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, but I do know much of the word of God. And I do know who the Holy Ghost is based on canonized scripture. Anything else is of no relevance unless it matches to the letter what is in the canonized scriptures. Or if the current prophet reveals new doctrine pertaining to anything I need to know.

....

Posted: **May 10th, 2019, 5:18 pm**

righteousrepublic wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 4:59 pm
Alaris wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 1:03 pmWe do, do we? Fact: Joseph Smith kept many truths from the saints because they were latched on to their traditional views. What traditional views? The Book of Mormon wasn't even out for reading until 1830. And it is a certain fact that lot of what Joseph Smith thought he knew wasn't even canonized. So, again, what traditional views are we talking about? Are we to believe there are two different and conflicting gospels? If so, I'll stick with canonized scripture

Abraham 3:27 is absolutely not Jesus Christ. I've written an article on this fact - Abraham and The Davidic Servant I've read lots of fiction. Have you ever read Rocking Island? It was published in 1927. It was a fun read when I was a lad.

Jesus was not chosen to be our Savior at the creation of this world - this is but one of many worlds under his domain. The choice in Abraham 3 is whom shall I send to be the Lesser God of Israel? There was never a choice that Elohim made between the devil and Jesus. It was always Jesus from the beginning of His dominion which is worlds. Otherwise, would there be a choice for each of His worlds under His dominion? Nope. The "Lord" in Abraham 3 is Jesus Christ. The one like unto God is Michael. The one like unto the Son of Man is The Holy Ghost. I agree that Jehovah under the direction of Elohim, created worlds without number. He came to this earth because this is the only world where a certain group of people would crucify their God, the Jewish people.

The Lord is God the Father
The one like unto God is the First Born in Spirit, even Jehovah, the Only Begotten Son in the flesh,
The one like unto the Son of Man is Jesus, himself, as I have shown above.
The Holy Ghost is the Spirit, Spirit of God and is also the Holy Spirit of Promise.

Holy Ghost
The third member of the Godhead (1 Jn. 5:7; D&C 20:28). He is a personage of Spirit, not having a body of flesh and bones (D&C 130:22). The Holy Ghost is often referred to as the Spirit, or the Spirit of God.

The Holy Ghost performs several vital roles in the plan of salvation. (1) He bears witness of the Father and the Son (1 Cor. 12:3; 3 Ne. 28:11; Ether 12:41). (2) He reveals the truth of all things (John 14:26; 16:13; Moro. 10:5; D&C 39:6). (3) He sanctifies those who have repented and become baptized (John 3:5; 3 Ne. 27:20; Moses 6:64–68). (4) He is the Holy Spirit of Promise (D&C 76:50–53; 132:7, 18–19, 26).

Rev 14:14 - how do "We" know this exactly? The heading tells us it is the Son of Man that will harvest the earth. Read 14-19...14 it is the Son of Man sitting on the cloud. 15 An angel tells him to thrust in his sickle. 16 he that sat on the cloud did thrust his sickle. Other angels came to help. This is how we know!

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

Notice the "golden crown" - who has a golden crown? That's right - the High Priest of Israel. It reads "Holiness to the Lord" - and this office points to the Lesser God. The Lesser Priesthood points to the Lesser God. He is the one "LIKE" unto the Son of Man. There's more here to point to the Lesser God than the Greater. In fact, there's only one of these scriptures you've quoted that is clearly Jesus Christ. Most of them are quite clearly The Holy Ghost. Sources?

In one instance it is Aaron that wears the Golden Crown, placed by Moses. Read Lev 8: In another instance, Jesus also wears a golden crown. Rev 14:14

Leviticus 8:9
9 And he put the mitre upon his (Aaron's) head; also upon the mitre, even upon his forefront, did he put the golden plate, the holy crown; as the Lord commanded Moses.

mitre = HEB the cap (or turban) upon his head, and he put the golden diadem, the holy crown, upon the front face of the cap (or turban).

Revelation 1:13 - agree.

Hebrews 7:3 - let's look at the context Having read the JST verse 3 does reveal that all who are made Priests are made like unto the Son of God. I hadn't read the reference before wwhen I made my claim. So, on this one, I stand corrected.

1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
3 For this Melchisedec was ordained a priest after the order of the Son of God, which order was without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days nor end of life; and all those who are ordained unto this priesthood are made like unto the Son of God, abiding a priest continually.

You said "it is the Son of God" - the whole point of the scripture is to illustrate how men are made like unto the Son of God - men like the Holy Ghost / Davidic Servant. Did you read the three priesthoods sermon linked on the prior page here? Joseph Smith is expounding on Hebrews 7! He talks of this process and then says the Holy Ghost is on this process, where if he proves successful, he will go on to ... you know what? nevermind. I hope you can at least consider the fact you're posting in a thread that has 12 pages of history you've obviously not considered.

I've already addressed Daniel 7. Jesus is not brought to Adam. Adam is brought to Jesus. Adam does not give dominion to Jesus. Jesus gives dominion to Adam. This is exactly the point I made. The Holy Ghost, however, is becoming a king and a priest like Melchizedek (see that sermon on the prior page - I'll link it again here because I'm nice like that:) Is this sermon canonized? If not, I have no interest in it.

https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/words-jose ... /27-august

^ This is the article that expounds upon Hebrews 7. If you read this carefully, Abraham became king and priest, so he is also ahead of The Holy Ghost in the heavenly hierarchy. In fact all seven dispensation heads are kings and priests. This is a new king and priest.

Allow me to end with Daniel 3 - your first reference shall be last here, and for good reason. I will admit that I sometimes get frustrated in chatting with you righteousrepublic. However, nobody in these forums has caused me to recheck my references, my knowledge, and my logic train like you do. You cause me to ask myself, "How do I know this?" and "How can I help folks (who are open minded enough -"can't be" is a self-limiter) see this? With Daniel 3, I know that "we know" that the fourth person in the furnace is Jesus Christ is a common interpretation of this scripture. However, it's wrong. Again, this is why the "why" is so very important. The Angel of the Lord is the protector of Israel. He meets Joshua on the fields of Jericho - saves Abraham, saves Isaac, saves Jerusalem more than once. But Jesus goes into the furnace with shadrach meschach and abednego?? - Um .... that does not align at all. But you know what? I've never looked into this before. So what are the chances there is any evidence that this one "like the Son of God" is actually the Angel of the Lord?

25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

Well, after just a quick bit of googling, there is a lot of evidence this fourth figure is actually the Angel of the Lord. Let's start with just the KJV and see if there's evidence.

Daniel 3:28 Then Nebuchadnezzar spake, and said, Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego, who hath sent his angel, and delivered his servants that trusted in him, and have changed the king’s word, and yielded their bodies, that they might not serve nor worship any god, except their own God. I'm good with that. Ii could have been an angel of the Lord, or a ministering angel.

Whoops! Now that aligns with all the other goings on in the Old Testament. What does the Lord Jehovah tell his servant when he awakens him? What servant?

Isaiah 51:10 Art thou not it which hath dried the sea, the waters of the great deep; that hath made the depths of the sea a way for the ransomed to pass over? It is the Lord, himself, not a servant, that did these things as a reference to Ex. 14:21 clearly reveals.

When the Lord awakens the Davidic Servant in mortality, he gives him a few keys to awaken him to his identity. Verse 10 is to remind him that he is the Angel of the Lord - protector of Israel. "Destroyer" of the enemies of God (sort of like the Lord who wears red and says he's trodden the winepress (executed the wrath of the Almighty God) alone. Jesus could not make such a claim. Have you read the Old Testament? There is one destroyer. And he is not Jesus but the lesser YHWH (Lesser YHWH and YAHUEL are titles of the Angel of the Lord in 3 Enoch).

Exodus 23:20 ¶ Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. This could be any angel sent by God, not having any relationship to David.
21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.
22 But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.
23 For mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off.

YAH is certainly in the name of the Angel of the Lord ( The Name of the Angel of the Lord ), but what about "Word of God?" - might there be some crossover there too? HALLELU - JAH ... JAH / YAH is in YAHWEH and YAHUEL ... could HALLELUJAH be a shout to both the lesser God (in whom the LORD says His name resides) and the Greater God?

Back to Daniel 3 - this chapter is much lengthier in the "New American Bible" which is a new translation of the Vulgate.
...

NAB Daniel 3 ( - http://www.usccb.org/bible/daniel/3 - )
47 The flames rose forty-nine cubits above the furnace,
48 and spread out, burning the Chaldeans that it caught around the furnace.
49 But the angel of the Lord went down into the furnace with Azariah and his companions, drove the fiery flames out of the furnace,
50 and made the inside of the furnace as though a dew-laden breeze were blowing through it. The fire in no way touched them or caused them pain or harm.
51 Then these three in the furnace with one voice sang, glorifying and blessing God:

I appreciate your intent to keep this discussion free from spirit of contention - as long as we can keep the Spirit I have no desire to contend, only to reveal what is written in the four standard works. I have read the New and Old Testaments five times. I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, but I do know much of the word of God. And I do know who the Holy Ghost is based on canonized scripture. Anything else is of no relevance unless it matches to the letter what is in the canonized scriptures.

....

Puts on Mod Hat

Hey there.

Okay, calling someone's beliefs as being fictitious is one sure way to potentially spark contention in a conversation. My friend, if you disagree with him, just say you do so and why, then make your arguments in a neutral and respectful manner; you don't poke fun or belittle his sincere beliefs.

I don't think you meant any disrespect, which is why I am talking to you mildly about this here and now, instead of doing more or using harsher language. In the future, please follow the prime forum rule of being respectful to the best of your ability.

/(Mod Hat)

Oh and btw, I have been enjoying the banter that has been going on between Alaris and everyone else the past couple of pages. Keep up your interesting and thought provoking discussions. Just make sure you all remain respectful and considerate about it.

Posted: **May 10th, 2019, 5:28 pm**

This is awesome - somehow in the last few years I've not read or heard this scripture. What a coincidence:

D&C 8:2 Yea, behold, I will tell you in your mind and in your heart, by the Holy Ghost, which shall come upon you and which shall dwell in your heart.

3 Now, behold, this is the spirit of revelation; behold, this is the spirit by which Moses brought the children of Israel through the Red Sea on dry ground.

Moses may have raised his rod, but it was the Angel of the Lord (who is The Holy Ghost) who parted the red sea. In the end times, the Lord awakens his mortal servant to his premortal identity:

Isaiah 51:9 ¶ Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the Lord; awake, as in the ancient days, in the generations of old. Art thou not it that hath cut Rahab, and wounded the dragon?

10 Art thou not it which hath dried the sea, the waters of the great deep; that hath made the depths of the sea a way for the ransomed to pass over?
The above is part of the servant songs of Isaiah where the Lord awakens his servant to his identity in the end times.

Isaiah 63:11 Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?

12 That led them by the right hand of Moses with his glorious arm, dividing the water before them, to make himself an everlasting name?

13 That led them through the deep, as an horse in the wilderness, that they should not stumble?

14 As a beast goeth down into the valley, the Spirit of the Lord caused him to rest: so didst thou lead thy people, to make thyself a glorious name.

What a(nother) coincidence - Isaiah 63 also contains the verses about the winepress and the one wearing red.

Interesting note about Moses building of a PM discussion from today. Take note:

D&C 84:23 Now this Moses plainly taught to the children of Israel in the wilderness, and sought diligently to sanctify his people that they might behold the face of God;

24 But they hardened their hearts and could not endure his presence; therefore, the Lord in his wrath, for his anger was kindled against them, swore that they should not enter into his rest while in the wilderness, which rest is the fulness of his glory.

25 Therefore, he took Moses out of their midst, and the Holy Priesthood also;

The two sermons linked in the prior page of this thread reference three levels of Priesthood and three roles of Priesthood. Receiving the fullness of the Priesthood IS seeing the face of God the Father.

Posted: **May 10th, 2019, 5:33 pm**

Durzan wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 5:18 pmPuts on Mod Hat

Hey there.

Okay, calling someone's beliefs as being fictitious is one sure way to potentially spark contention in a conversation. My friend, if you disagree with him, just say you do so and why, then make your arguments in a neutral and respectful manner; you don't poke fun or belittle his sincere beliefs.

I don't think you meant any disrespect, which is why I am talking to you mildly about this here and now, instead of doing more or using harsher language. In the future, please follow the prime forum rule of being respectful to the best of your ability.

/(Mod Hat)

Oh and btw, I have been enjoying the banter that has been going on between Alaris and everyone else the past couple of pages. Keep up your interesting and thought provoking discussions. Just make sure you all remain respectful and considerate about it.

Sorry, I realized my blunder and edited it to some degree. As in most all writings of the brethren, they usually are very plain in saying that the work they do is not necessarily, completely agreeable to church doctrine. But when someone states that their writings are fact, a red flag goes up. However, there may be some that agree that it is. And this is fine. Again, I apologize.

Posted: **May 10th, 2019, 6:03 pm**

Alaris wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 5:28 pm This is awesome - somehow in the last few years I've not read or heard this scripture. What a coincidence:

D&C 8:2 Yea, behold, I will tell you in your mind and in your heart, by the Holy Ghost, which shall come upon you and which shall dwell in your heart.

3 Now, behold, this is the spirit of revelation; behold, this is the spirit by which Moses brought the children of Israel through the Red Sea on dry ground.

Moses may have raised his rod, but it was the Angel of the Lord (who is The Holy Ghost) who parted the red sea. In the end times, the Lord awakens his mortal servant to his premortal identity: Exodus 14:21 And Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the Lord caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind all that night, and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided.

Isaiah 51:9 ¶ Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the Lord; awake, as in the ancient days, in the generations of old. Art thou not it that hath cut Rahab, and wounded the dragon?

10 Art thou not it which hath dried the sea, the waters of the great deep; that hath made the depths of the sea a way for the ransomed to pass over?
The above is part of the servant songs of Isaiah where the Lord awakens his servant to his identity in the end times.

Isaiah 63:11 Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?

12 That led them by the right hand of Moses with his glorious arm, dividing the water before them, to make himself an everlasting name?

13 That led them through the deep, as an horse in the wilderness, that they should not stumble?

14 As a beast goeth down into the valley, the Spirit of the Lord caused him to rest: so didst thou lead thy people, to make thyself a glorious name.

What a(nother) coincidence - Isaiah 63 also contains the verses about the winepress and the one wearing red.

Interesting note about Moses building of a PM discussion from today. Take note:

D&C 84:23 Now this Moses plainly taught to the children of Israel in the wilderness, and sought diligently to sanctify his people that they might behold the face of God;

24 But they hardened their hearts and could not endure his presence; therefore, the Lord in his wrath, for his anger was kindled against them, swore that they should not enter into his rest while in the wilderness, which rest is the fulness of his glory.

25 Therefore, he took Moses out of their midst, and the Holy Priesthood also;

The two sermons linked in the prior page of this thread reference three levels of Priesthood and three roles of Priesthood. Receiving the fullness of the Priesthood IS seeing the face of God the Father.

Posted: **May 10th, 2019, 6:15 pm**

Sorry, but I think the time has arrived for me to...........

Whoops, I guess I had the timing off. Maybe later!

Posted: **May 10th, 2019, 11:29 pm**

as far as
(The “angel of his presence”—Jehovah’s servant)
and ("Rahab" --- the name for ancient Egypt)

Isaiah 63

8 For he thought, Surely they are my people,
sons who will not play false;
and so he became their Savior:
9 with all their troubles he troubled himself,
the angel of his presence delivering them.
In his love and compassion
he himself redeemed them;
he lifted them up and carried them
all the days of old.

True to the terms of the covenants he makes with his people and with individuals, Jehovah fulfills his part by laying the foundation upon which all salvation rests—his atonement for his people’s transgressions in which he “bears their sufferings” and “endures their griefs” (Isaiah 53:4): “Hear me, O house of Jacob, and all you remnant of the house of Israel, who have been a load on me since birth, borne up by me from the womb: Even to your old age, I am present; till you turn grey, it is I who sustain you. It is I who made you, and I who bear you up; it is I who carry and rescue you” (Isaiah 46:3-4).

The “angel of his presence”—Jehovah’s servant—emulates Jehovah by keeping the terms of the Davidic Covenant on the seraph level (Isaiah 14:29-30). Word links identify him with the savior who “delivers” Egypt’s covenanters (Isaiah 19:19-22); and—as a type of his end-time role—with the “angel of Jehovah” who slays 185,000 Assyrians besieging Jerusalem (Isaiah 37:36). The terms “days of old” further identify him with Jehovah’s arm—the angel who leads Israel’s exodus out of Egypt and thwarts the pursuing Egyptians (vv 11-12; Isaiah 51:9-10; cf. 11:15-16; 43:16-17; Exodus 14:19-20).

--------------------------

The Lord through Moses led the people out of Egypt.
The Lord through His ("arm" end-time servant) will lead the saints and remnant to Zion.
"Arm" is a metaphor for Jehovah’s end-time servant.
"The terms mouth, sword, hand, and arrow also designate Jehovah’s servant metaphorically "(Isaiah 31:8; 51:16; 62:2-3).

Avraham Gileadi

Isaiah 40
10 See, my Lord Jehovah comes with power;
his arm presides for him.
His reward is with him; his work precedes him.

Jehovah’s coming in a general sense—as distinct from his literal coming in person—refers to the entire scenario of his Day of Judgment that leads to his actual appearance. Called the “day of power” (Psalm 110:3) and “Day of Jehovah” (Isaiah 13:6, 9), there occurs a preparatory period entailing the earth’s cleansing of the wicked and deliverance of the righteous that precedes Jehovah’s millennial reign. Jehovah’s “work” that ushers in his coming (Isaiah 43:13; 45:9; 62:11), in effect, involves the labors of both the king of Assyria/Babylon and Jehovah’s servant (Isaiah 10:12; 28:21-22; 42:3).

The metaphor of Jehovah’s arm—his end-time servant—signifies divine intervention. When Jehovah empowers his servant after he is ostracized (Isaiah 49:4, 7-9; 50:6-9; 52:13-15), the tables turn for him and Jehovah’s righteous people: “Awake, arise; clothe yourself with power, O arm of Jehovah! Bestir yourself, as in ancient times, as in generations of old. Was it not you who carved up Rahab, you who slew the dragon? Was it not you who dried up the Sea, the waters of the mighty deep, and made of ocean depths a way by which the redeemed might pass” (Isaiah 51:9-10; emphasis added; cf. 52:1-3).

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I believe "Rahab" here in this verse is the name for ancient Egypt.
In Isaiah the term "Egypt" always refers to the U.S..
When Isaiah wants to talk about ancient Egypt, he uses another term, "Rahab"

Isaiah 51 is all about the Lord's "arm of righteousness " His end-time servant
that the Lord empowers to deliver his people in an exodus to Zion, just as he did anciently with Moses.
"Jehovah’s empowering his arm—his end-time servant—follows the type his empowering Moses, who led Israel’s ancient exodus out of Egypt:"

9 Awake, arise; clothe yourself with power,
O arm of Jehovah!
Bestir yourself, as in ancient times,
as in generations of old.
Was it not you who carved up Rahab,
you who slew the dragon?
10 Was it not you who dried up the Sea,
the waters of the mighty deep,
and made of ocean depths a way
by which the redeemed might pass?

Jehovah’s empowering his arm—his end-time servant—follows the type his empowering Moses, who led Israel’s ancient exodus out of Egypt: “Then his people recalled the days of Moses of old: ‘Where is he who brought them up out of the Sea with the shepherd of his flock? Where is he who put into him his holy Spirit, who made his glorious arm proceed at the right hand of Moses, who divided the waters before them, making an everlasting name for himself when he led them through the deep?’” (Isaiah 63:11-13). Word links—Sea, arm, “waters,” and deep—connect these and other passages.

Jehovah’s empowering his arm—which resembles his rising from the dead (cf. Isaiah 26:19)—sets in motion the deliverance of his people: Jehovah’s arm heralds salvation to the nations of the world (Isaiah 52:10), performs Jehovah’s will in Babylon (Isaiah 48:14-15), gathers and leads Jehovah’s flock (Isaiah 40:10-11), and subdues Assyria (Isaiah 30:30-32). Inextricably linked to Jehovah’s empowerment of his arm is his people’s new exodus to Zion (v 11). Patterned after Israel’s ancient exodus, it requires power over the elements such as Moses exercised on the seraph level (Exodus 14:15-31).

Jehovah’s arm awakening, arising, and being clothed with power thus signifies the servant’s ascent to seraph status. His carving up Rahab and slaying the dragon recalls the role of Moses in subduing Egypt and its Pharaoh (cf. Ezekiel 29:3; Revelation 12:1-13:4) and of the angel who went before the camp of Israel (Exodus 14:19; Numbers 20:16; Isaiah 63:9). The servant’s drying up the Sea, the waters of the deep, denotes his victory over the archtyrant that makes possible the release of Jehovah’s captives from bondage (Isaiah 10:24-27; 50:2) and their exodus to Zion (Isaiah 11:15-16; 43:16-17).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Rahab appears in two different contexts in the OT. On the one hand, it appears as a sea monster defeated at the time of creation (Ps 89:11—Eng 89:10; Job 9:13; 26:12), and on the other as a metaphorical name for Egypt (Ps 87:4; Isa 30:7). In Isa 51:9 the two usages may be fused."

That Rahab serves as a name for Egypt is explicit in Isa 30:7, where the prophet declares: “For Egypt’s help is worthless and empty, therefore I have called her ‘the silenced Rahab.’ ” The translation “the silenced Rahab” is achieved by reading rahab hammošbāt for the meaningless MT rahab hēm šābet, which seems the most satisfactory emendation (cf. Isa 14:4). Rahab also clearly functions as the name of a country in Ps 87:4: “I reckon Rahab and Babylon as those that know me; behold Philistia and Tyre with Ethiopia—‘this one was born there.’ ” Egypt is the most likely referent for Rahab here, paralleling Isa 30:7.
That the defeated sea dragon Rahab should serve as a metaphor for Egypt is understandable when one recalls the oppressive role which Egypt played with regard to Israel before the Exodus and the location of the heart of the Exodus deliverance at the sea (Exodus 14–15).
Compare the allusion to pharaoh as a dragon in Ezek 29:3–5 and 32:2–8 (reading tannı̂n, “dragon,” for MT tannı̂m, “jackals”).

Isa 51:9–11 is a famous passage, which reads: “Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the Lord, awake as in days of old, the generations of long ago. Was it not you who hewed Rahab in pieces, who pierced the dragon? Was it not you who dried up the sea, the waters of the great deep, who made the depths of the sea a way for the redeemed to pass over? So the ransomed of the Lord will return and come to Zion with singing, everlasting joy shall be on their heads; they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.” Verse 10b certainly refers to the Exodus, and v 11 to the new Exodus, the return of the exiles from Babylon. The reference in v 9 to the defeat of Rahab could refer to the chaos monster at the time of creation, to Egypt at the time of the Exodus, or to a fusion of both."
end quote

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=51209&p=923312&hili ... ce#p923312

Posted: **May 11th, 2019, 12:19 pm**

righteousrepublic wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 6:03 pm
Moses may have raised his rod, but it was the Angel of the Lord (who is The Holy Ghost) who parted the red sea. In the end times, the Lord awakens his mortal servant to his premortal identity: Exodus 14:21 And Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the Lord caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind all that night, and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided.

Did God or Joseph Smith restore the Gospel? Yes. Thanks again for chiming in.

Posted: **May 11th, 2019, 6:48 pm**

Alaris wrote: ↑May 11th, 2019, 12:19 pm
righteousrepublic wrote: ↑May 10th, 2019, 6:03 pm
Moses may have raised his rod, but it was the Angel of the Lord (who is The Holy Ghost) who parted the red sea. In the end times, the Lord awakens his mortal servant to his premortal identity: Exodus 14:21 And Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the Lord caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind all that night, and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided.
Did God or Joseph Smith restore the Gospel? Yes.

Joseph Smith, in and of himself, did not restore the gospel. He was a mere instrument that God used to bring forth the gospel of Jesus Christ in the latter days. Before, during and after JS was visited by these messengers, ie, Moroni, John the Baptist, Peter, James, John, Moses, Elijah, and Elias, all, of whom according to whatever assignment God wanted each one to accomplish, gave him the necessary Priesthood, ordinances, covenants and other vital information in order for the church to get up and running once again after so many years. Having said this, imho, Joseph gets all the credit, nevertheless, it is God and the already mentioned men that should get the majority of credit.

So the proper answer to the question is: God and his angelic messengers through Joseph Smith.

Was this a bait question? Whatever it was intended for, I couldn't pass up stating a more reasonable and accurate answer.

Posted: **May 11th, 2019, 11:20 pm**

righteousrepublic wrote: ↑May 11th, 2019, 6:48 pmHe was a mere instrument that God used to bring forth the gospel of Jesus Christ in the latter days.

Joseph Smith Jr. was a worthy instrument. God operates through His faithful children, and often raises the most faithful as leaders.

Are you aware of the prophecies of Isaiah concerning the last of days? The ones which are so heavily advocated in the Book of Mormon and modern revelation? Given scriptural and historical precedent, do you seriously believe these types of prophecies could possibly be fulfilled in the endtime in a leaderless fashion? Come on. Of course there is a Davidic Servant. Are Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Paul and Joseph Smith liars? Since when has God ever prepared a Zion people without an Enoch/Melchizedek messianic figure? Open your mind and your heart, and be ready. Isaiah prophesied the Lord would do a “new thing” in the last days among His people, and the ideas expressed here are hardly new. How will you fare when the proper bombshells come?

Haven’t really followed your discussion with Alaris in this thread, but from what I have read I would exhort you to consider a broader scope of these messianic prophecies and contemplate how the establishing of a proper heir is the cornerstone of Christ’s everlasting Godship.

The Throne of David will never fail a man to occupy it. No other man or house has been given such a wonderful, eternal promise. The nail in the sure place, purchased by Christ’s blood; the sure place being His child & chosen heir. Hence the Name YHWH. Behold the hand, behold the nail. “I will send the first”. I submit Michael’s victory over his adversary in the first estate is the nail. His victory over him here will be the nail in the sure place, and the remnant of Israel will have glory added upon their heads forever and ever.

What is the symbolism of the sacrifice upon the altar, concerning Jesus the grand archetype?Who was the priest executing Him upon the altar of Golgotha? What are the deeper implications? Evil, satanic men in occultic circles through history have sacrificed children, even their firstborn sons, the beginning of their strength, in efforts to renew their own youth and obtain power. Wait that sounds familiar...

Psalm 110

from the womb of the morning, the dew of your youth will be yours.
The LORD has sworn and will not change his mind, You are a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek

Satan the copycat. Satan who wishes he had in Cain what Adam has in Jesus. But even death by ritual murder can be overcome in Christ.

Exodus 13

Every firstborn of man among your sons you shall redeem.
And when in time to come your son asks you, ‘What does this mean?’ you shall say to him, ‘By a strong hand the LORD brought us out of Egypt, from the house of slavery.
For when Pharaoh stubbornly refused to let us go, the LORD killed all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both the firstborn of man and the firstborn of animals. Therefore I sacrifice to the LORD all the males that first open the womb, but all the firstborn of my sons I redeem.’

Posted: **May 12th, 2019, 2:18 am**

abijah wrote: ↑May 11th, 2019, 11:20 pm
righteousrepublic wrote: ↑May 11th, 2019, 6:48 pmHe was a mere instrument that God used to bring forth the gospel of Jesus Christ in the latter days.
Joseph Smith Jr. was a worthy instrument. God operates through His faithful children, and often raises the most faithful as leaders.

Are you aware of the prophecies of Isaiah concerning the last of days? The ones which are so heavily advocated in the Book of Mormon and modern revelation? Given scriptural and historical precedent, do you seriously believe these types of prophecies could possibly be fulfilled in the endtime in a leaderless fashion? Come on. Of course there is a Davidic Servant. Are Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Paul and Joseph Smith liars? Since when has God ever prepared a Zion people without an Enoch/Melchizedek messianic figure? Open your mind and your heart, and be ready. Isaiah prophesied the Lord would do a “new thing” in the last days among His people, and the ideas expressed here are hardly new. How will you fare when the proper bombshells come?

Haven’t really followed your discussion with Alaris in this thread, but from what I have read I would exhort you to consider a broader scope of these messianic prophecies and contemplate how the establishing of a proper heir is the cornerstone of Christ’s everlasting Godship.

The Throne of David will never fail a man to occupy it. No other man or house has been given such a wonderful, eternal promise. The nail in the sure place, purchased by Christ’s blood; the sure place being His child & chosen heir. Hence the Name YHWH. Behold the hand, behold the nail. “I will send the first”. I submit Michael’s victory over his adversary in the first estate is the nail. His victory over him here will be the nail in the sure place, and the remnant of Israel will have glory added upon their heads forever and ever.

What is the symbolism of the sacrifice upon the altar, concerning Jesus the grand archetype?Who was the priest executing Him upon Golgotha? What are the deeper implications? Evil, satanic men in occultic circles through history have sacrificed children, even their firstborn sons in efforts to renew their own youth and obtain power. Wait that sounds familiar...

Psalm 110
from the womb of the morning, the dew of your youth will be yours.
The LORD has sworn and will not change his mind, You are a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek
Satan the copycat. Satan who wishes he had in Cain what Adam has in Jesus. But even death by ritual murder can be overcome in Christ.

Exodus 13
Every firstborn of man among your sons you shall redeem.
And when in time to come your son asks you, ‘What does this mean?’ you shall say to him, ‘By a strong hand the LORD brought us out of Egypt, from the house of slavery.
For when Pharaoh stubbornly refused to let us go, the LORD killed all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both the firstborn of man and the firstborn of animals. Therefore I sacrifice to the LORD all the males that first open the womb, but all the firstborn of my sons I redeem.’

I don't know where all this came from, I was simply answering Alaris' question, a question I've known the answer for at least 60+ years. I was taught this when I was a lad in Sunday school.
I've never said there was no Davidic Servant. I just disagree that it is the Holy Ghost, and I'm not alone on this I'm happy to say.

Everything leads back to Christ. He created this earth and everything in it. He being God Almighty, (Exodus 6:3) he came to this earth and dwelled on it in the flesh. Mosiah 15:1-5 3 Nephi 9:15.

Everything Joseph Smith did also leads back to Christ/Jehovah, because it is Christ's gospel and church. JS just happens to be the instrument God chose for the assignment, and I never once said that he wasn't a worthy instrument. Likewise, the Urim and Thummim used for translation didn't restore the gospel either, it was an instrument used to receive information from God written on ancient plates, so the restoration of the prophetic words of old could be read and understood in the end times. Everything leads back to Christ, everything, even the Davidic Servant.

Like you stated already, you haven't followed the discussion, so please don't jump to unfounded conclusions.

If you want to discuss with Alaris concerning his topic, I'll just sit back and let things play out. I'm not far from exhausting my repetitiveness ad nauseam. There's only so many ways a person can articulate a point.

Come to think of it, Christ tried teaching his gospel to all people that would listen, yet he was treated with scorn and worse at times. Why he even got nailed on a cross because of his teachings.

Yes, everything leads back to Christ.

Posted: **May 12th, 2019, 2:44 am**

righteousrepublic wrote: ↑May 12th, 2019, 2:18 amI don't know where all this came from, I was simply answering Alaris' question, a question I've known the answer for at least 60+ years. I was taught this when I was a lad in Sunday school.

It wasn’t directed at you, your post just served as a natural segue into my thoughts on the topic at hand, which I have commented on at length prior if you look back in the thread. When I get going it’s hard to stop me and it’s easier editing a post than creating a new one.

I've never said there was no Davidic Servant. I just disagree that it is the Holy Ghost, and I'm not alone on this I'm happy to say.

Yeah okay. I mean, you deny many scriptures that indicate this, and I could irrefutably prove how Joseph Smith believed this very thing but so be it.

Everything leads back to Christ. He created this earth and everything in it. He being God Almighty, (Exodus 6:3) he came to this earth and dwelled on it in the flesh. Mosiah 15:1-5 3 Nephi 9:15.

What do you mean by Christ created everything? As in, by His own word alone or as in how the Endowment shows?

Everything Joseph Smith did also leads back to Christ/Jehovah, because it is Christ's gospel and church. JS just happens to be the instrument God chose for the assignment, and I never once said that he wasn't a worthy instrument. Likewise, the Urim and Thummim used for translation didn't restore the gospel either, it was an instrument used to receive information from God written on ancient plates, so the restoration of the prophetic words of old could be read and understood in the end times. Everything leads back to Christ, everything, even the Davidic Servant.

Amen brother.

Like you stated already, you haven't followed the discussion, so please don't jump to unfounded conclusions.

Well, I was careful to not reach unwarranted conclusions. You just tossed aside so many blatant Davidic Servant prophecies (and they are just that, and easily proveable) that I assumed you thought we would all twiddle thumbs till the second coming like most LDS seem to expect.

If you want to discuss with Alaris concerning his topic, I'll just sit back and let things play out. I'm not far from exhausting my repetitiveness ad nauseam. There's only so many ways a person can articulate a point.

Whenever I feel the need for your repetitiveness I know where my topical guide is.

Come to think of it, Christ tried teaching his gospel to all people that would listen, yet he was treated with scorn and worse at times. Why he even got nailed on a cross because of his teachings.

I wonder the same.

Posted: **May 12th, 2019, 5:05 am**

abijah wrote: ↑May 12th, 2019, 2:44 am
righteousrepublic wrote: ↑May 12th, 2019, 2:18 amI don't know where all this came from, I was simply answering Alaris' question, a question I've known the answer for at least 60+ years. I was taught this when I was a lad in Sunday school.
It wasn’t directed at you, my name is in the quote section you replied to three posts above where you responded to my post, is it not? your post just served as a natural segue into my thoughts on the topic at hand, which I have commented on at length prior if you look back in the thread. When I get going it’s hard to stop me and it’s easier editing a post than creating a new one.

I've never said there was no Davidic Servant. I just disagree that it is the Holy Ghost, and I'm not alone on this I'm happy to say.
Yeah okay. I mean, you deny many scriptures that indicate this, and I could irrefutably prove how Joseph Smith believed this very thing but so be it.

Everything leads back to Christ. He created this earth and everything in it. He being God Almighty, (Exodus 6:3) he came to this earth and dwelled on it in the flesh. Mosiah 15:1-5 3 Nephi 9:15.
What do you mean by Christ created everything? As in, by His own word alone or as in how the Endowment shows?

Everything Joseph Smith did also leads back to Christ/Jehovah, because it is Christ's gospel and church. JS just happens to be the instrument God chose for the assignment, and I never once said that he wasn't a worthy instrument. Likewise, the Urim and Thummim used for translation didn't restore the gospel either, it was an instrument used to receive information from God written on ancient plates, so the restoration of the prophetic words of old could be read and understood in the end times. Everything leads back to Christ, everything, even the Davidic Servant.
Amen brother.

Like you stated already, you haven't followed the discussion, so please don't jump to unfounded conclusions.
Well, I was careful to not reach unwarranted conclusions. You just tossed aside so many blatant Davidic Servant prophecies (and they are just that, and easily proveable) that I assumed you thought we would all twiddle thumbs till the second coming like most LDS seem to expect. They don't prove the Holy Ghost is that servant.

If you want to discuss with Alaris concerning his topic, I'll just sit back and let things play out. I'm not far from exhausting my repetitiveness ad nauseam. There's only so many ways a person can articulate a point.
Whenever I feel the need for your repetitiveness I know where my topical guide is. Look up who created this and all other worlds, and under who's direction.

Come to think of it, Christ tried teaching his gospel to all people that would listen, yet he was treated with scorn and worse at times. Why he even got nailed on a cross because of his teachings.
I wonder the same.

Did you say you read scriptures?

Whatever Joseph Smith believed and is not within canon will not get my attention. There are plenty of things to learn already in the scriptures, and it can take a lifetime just to learn all of it, let alone internalize enough to live it well. Remember, we're not told to feast upon non-canonized theories and ideas no matter how appealing, but we told to feast upon the word of God, especially the Book of Mormon. Within its pages we learn the plain and precious parts that were removed from the bible by the whore of the earth. We also learn about there being a space between death and the resurrection, and how the restoration of the spirit and body takes place. We learn about hell and paradise. We also learn how to become perfect in this life. We learn that God, himself, came to earth to redeem people from their sins.

BTW, look up Jesus Christ, Creator

Eph. 3:9
Col. 1:16
3 Ne. 9:15
and any references thereof.

Posted: **May 12th, 2019, 10:02 am**

righteousrepublic wrote: ↑May 12th, 2019, 5:05 amWhatever Joseph Smith believed and is not within canon will not get my attention.

It’s in canon. Paul basically says “it was the Holy Ghost himself that parted the Red Sea and brought your fathers through to the promised land”. Try and contend against that, good luck. Joseph Smith took it further in History of the Church calling this selfsame figure as David. The same David he otherwise prophesied would come. I believe Joseph and I believe Paul, who prophesied of a Deliverer who comes from the LDS Church, one belonging to this sphere apart from Jesus.

There are plenty of things to learn already in the scriptures, and it can take a lifetime just to learn all of it, let alone internalize enough to live it well.

Nonsense, anyone can read and learn the scriptures in a generally low amount of time. The scriptures, and all esoteric knowledge are available at a finger’s tap.

Remember, we're not told to feast upon non-canonized theories and ideas no matter how appealing, but we told to feast upon the word of God, especially the Book of Mormon.

Well I wouldn’t say “especially” the Book of Mormon, I think the saints are under condemnation, or soon will be, for neglecting the Bible. I’ll tell it like it is. The Bible has loads of things the Book of Mormon does not have. Important things too. A few years ago I saw fellow missionaries in the field who barely knew who Joseph of Egypt was because they’ve been told no scripture is worth reading except the BOM. They seriously thought Joseph was merely Lehi’s son. Yeah right.

Within its pages we learn the plain and precious parts that were removed from the bible by the whore of the earth.

Yeah a lot. And I get it. If I were the whore of the earth I’d be bitter too.

We also learn about there being a space between death and the resurrection, and how the restoration of the spirit and body takes place. We learn about hell and paradise. We also learn how to become perfect in this life. We learn that God, himself, came to earth to redeem people from their sins.

Agreed. And I don’t believe the “other side” is as far removed as we might think. Adam learns and grows from his offspring.

Romans 11

7 Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says, Today, if you hear his voice do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, on the day of testing in the wilderness, where your fathers put me to the test and saw my works for cforty years. Therefore I was provoked with that generation,
and said, ‘They always go astray in their heart; they have not known my ways. As I swore in my wrath, They shall not enter my rest.

Posted: **May 12th, 2019, 12:17 pm**

abijah wrote: ↑May 12th, 2019, 10:02 am
righteousrepublic wrote: ↑May 12th, 2019, 5:05 amWhatever Joseph Smith believed and is not within canon will not get my attention.
It’s in canon. Paul basically says “it was the Holy Ghost himself that parted the Red Sea and brought your fathers through to the promised land”. Try and contend against that, good luck. Joseph Smith took it further in History of the Church calling this selfsame figure as David. The same David he otherwise prophesied would come. I believe Joseph and I believe Paul, who prophesied of a Deliverer who comes from the LDS Church, one belonging to this sphere apart from Jesus.

There are plenty of things to learn already in the scriptures, and it can take a lifetime just to learn all of it, let alone internalize enough to live it well.
Nonsense, anyone can read and learn the scriptures in a generally low amount of time. The scriptures, and all esoteric knowledge are available at a finger’s tap.

Remember, we're not told to feast upon non-canonized theories and ideas no matter how appealing, but we told to feast upon the word of God, especially the Book of Mormon.
Well I wouldn’t say “especially” the Book of Mormon, I think the saints are under condemnation, or soon will be, for neglecting the Bible. I’ll tell it like it is. The Bible has loads of things the Book of Mormon does not have. Important things too. A few years ago I saw fellow missionaries in the field who barely knew who Joseph of Egypt was because they’ve been told no scripture is worth reading except the BOM. They seriously thought Joseph was merely Lehi’s son. Yeah right.

Within its pages we learn the plain and precious parts that were removed from the bible by the whore of the earth.
Yeah a lot. And I get it. If I were the whore of the earth I’d be bitter too.

We also learn about there being a space between death and the resurrection, and how the restoration of the spirit and body takes place. We learn about hell and paradise. We also learn how to become perfect in this life. We learn that God, himself, came to earth to redeem people from their sins.
Agreed. And I don’t believe the “other side” is as far removed as we might think. Adam learns and grows from his offspring.

Hey Abjah... you might wanna cite your sources instead of just quoting them verbatim. Otherwise, Freedom and others will just outright ignore your statements. Its debating/convincing 101.

Posted: **May 12th, 2019, 2:03 pm**

Abijah makes some great points above, and I want to add to his points by asking some very important questions few to none seem to even think to ask - almost like there's a spirit of deep sleep that's been poured out upon us.

Isaiah 29:10 For the Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.

There are prophecies all over the place regarding the Davidic Servant throughout the Old Testamtent - Isaiah, Jeremiah, Amos, Genesis, Malachi, Zechariah, etc. Question # 1:

Why are there so many prophecies regarding a Latter-day King?

Isaiah is quoted throughout the Book of Mormon - Nephi tells us these prophecies are important to us.

Why is Isaiah so important to the ancient Nephites and to us?

Jesus Christ quotes these prophecies including several regarding the Davidic Servant to the ancient Nephites. Why does Jesus quote Isaiah regarding the hidden servant - the marred servant - who is the Davidic Servant?

Why does Jesus believe the servant prophecies are important both to the ancient Nephites and to us?

Joseph Smith said the Holy Ghost will take upon himself a body. Joseph Smith said the Holy Ghost is in a state of probation that, if he passes, will go on to experience a same or similar course as Jesus Christ.

Why does nobody even consider the Holy Ghost may be born in the flesh in our world?

Why does nobody conclude there may be some prophecies regarding the Holy Ghost's mortal ministry???

The Holy Ghost's identity has been hidden to us. There are several prophecies regarding the Davidic Servant being hidden.

Why does nobody seem tie these two truths together?

The ancient prophecies regarding the Davidic Servant indicate his kingdom is eternal (Ezekiel 37)

Why does everyone seem to think the Davidic Servant is just some end times king with no eternal implication to us?

The throne and kingdom of Israel will be given to the Davidic Servant?

Why do so few seem to conclude he will be our King?

Man, I could go on. Once you see these things and tie them together, it really is incredible how few not only haven't considered any of this - but are completely closed minded to even consider. With that in mind:

With Nephi, Moroni, John, etc. all being forbidden to share with us parts of what they have seen:

Why do so many believe we have all the information we need and downplay what's in the sealed portion?

I must say - there absolutely has been a spirit of deep sleep poured out upon all of us.

I posted this a page or so ago in this thread. Here it is again to tie the Rod of Jesse (Davidic line .. Jesse) to the Comforter.

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Verses 13 and 14 rid any notion of this being the same person. He shall not speak of himself but glorify me. Got it - separate individual. A man. A person. Not an "it"

Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge: after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
4 But with righteousness: shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity: for the meek of the earth:: and he shall smite: the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay: the wicked.:
5 And righteousness: shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.

One last question.

Since the Lord told us the Apocrypha is mostly true, why do so few seek truth from the Apocrypha?

Here is the "Elect One" of 1 Enoch that is absolutely the Rod of Jesse.

Enoch 49:2 For he is mighty in all the secrets of righteousness, And unrighteousness shall disappear as a shadow, And have no continuance;
Because the Elect One standeth before the Lord of Spirits, And his glory is forever and ever,
And his might until all generations
3 And in him dwells the spirit of wisdom, and the spirit which gives insight,
And the spirit of understanding and of might,
And the spirit of those who have fallen asleep in righteousness.
4 And he shall judge the secret things,
And none shall be able to utter a lying word before him;
For he is the Elect One before the Lord of Spirits according to His good pleasure.

Enoch 62:2 And the Lord of Spirits seated him on the throne of His glory, And the spirit of righteousness was poured out upon him, And the word of his mouth slays all the sinners. And all the unrighteous are destroyed from before his face.

Compare Enoch 62:2 with Isaiah 11:4 (and Revelation 11 where the two witnesses slay by the breath of their lips as well)

With so many prophecies about the Davidic Servant, with Joseph Smith equating the Holy Ghost and the Latter-day David receiving the fullness of the Priesthood, with the identity of the servant and the Holy Ghost being hidden - why on earth would anyone close their mind to even considering this possibility? The pattern established in the scriptures is clear. If they don't look - if they don't seek - if they don't ask - if they already "know better" as the Pharisees did, they will never ...

"see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them." ~ Jesus Christ

...until it is everlastingly too late.

He who treads the winepress of the fierceness of the wrath of the almighty God alone is the one who executes judgement upon the wicked.

Revelation 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

^ This is the angel who delivers the message to John. John witnesses the angel's exaltation and worships the angel - twice.

Why does everyone assume John worships the angel because he was "wowed" by destruction? Makes ZERO sense.

Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

That last verse - verse 14 is important. This has special meaning to me as I learned something esoterically that I could not find in the scriptures. However, I did find it years later in 1 Enoch while reading of the "Elect one" who is the Rod of Jesse who is a servant in the hands of Christ on whom is laid much power of Jesse and of Ephraim.

1 Enoch 60:8 And the Lord of Spirits placed the Elect one on the throne of glory.
And he shall judge all the works of the holy above in the heaven,
And in the balance shall their deeds be weighed

9And when he shall lift up his countenance
To judge their secret ways according to the word of the name of the Lord of Spirits,
And their path according to the way of the righteous judgement of the Lord of Spirits,
Then shall they all with one voice speak and bless,
And glorify and extol and sanctify the name of the Lord of Spirits.

10 And He will summon all the host of the heavens, and all the holy ones above, and the host of God, the Cherubic, Seraphin and Ophannin, and all the angels of power, and all the angels of principalities

There is a scripture in Isaiah that ties the servant to summoning the host of heaven - I'll see if I can find it.
----

Wow, what a "coincidence!" I was thinking of posting the scripture "comfort ye my people" which is an amazing scripture used in Handel's Messiah. That chapter also has the verse I was looking for above:

Isaiah 40:1 Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God.

2 Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the Lord’s hand double for all her sins.

3 ¶ The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

I hope verse 1 takes on new meaning here in comparing to the "Comforter" of John 16 who the Lord said would judge and reprove the world of sin.

The comforter, who is the Holy Ghost, who the Father will send in the name of Jesus Christ will comfort Jerusalem and speak comfortably to her that her warfare (winepress) is accomplished and she will be sanctified (holy ghost role) despite all her pain (D&C 133) Isaiah 40 continued...

9 ¶ O Zion, that bringest good tidings, get thee up into the high mountain; O Jerusalem, that bringest good tidings, lift up thy voice with strength; lift it up, be not afraid; say unto the cities of Judah, Behold your God!

10 Behold, the Lord God will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.

The arm of the Lord is one of the many titles of the servant of Isaiah (ask Avraham Gileadi) ... behold your God! This is the securing of the crown and throne of the Davidic Servant who is the Holy Ghost. John watched this play out and is why he worshiped the very angel who is the mouth of YHWH as Aaron is the mouth of Moses.

13 Who hath directed the Spirit of the Lord, or being his counsellor hath taught him?

Hrm ... that's pretty overt.

14 With whom took he counsel, and who instructed him, and taught him in the path of judgment, and taught him knowledge, and shewed to him the way of understanding?

The spirit of counsel and wisdom and judgement and knowledge - compare to Isaiah 11 - the Rod of Jesse. *SHAKES READER*

15 Behold, the nations are as a drop of a bucket, and are counted as the small dust of the balance: behold, he taketh up the isles as a very little thing.

17 All nations before him are as nothing; and they are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity.

*tear* - this is the most beloved servant of God (see 3 Enoch and why Metatron is crowned)

26 Lift up your eyes on high, and behold who hath created these things, that bringeth out their host by number: he calleth them all by names by the greatness of his might, for that he is strong in power; not one faileth.

There it is. He summons forth the host of heaven and is wearing red when he does. He calleth them by names (See Isaiah ... well here its:

Isaiah 62:2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the LORD shall name.

The mouth of the LORD calls Israel by a new name. Notice how "might" and "strong in power" are mentioned also in verse 26 above. D&C 113 says the Rod of Jesse is a servant in the hands of Christ on whom is laid much power. Judgement. Resurrection. That is power. D&C 85:7 - the scepter of power for the one MIGHTY and STRONG.

Posted: **May 12th, 2019, 3:23 pm**

Durzan wrote: ↑May 12th, 2019, 12:17 pm Hey Abjah... you might wanna cite your sources instead of just quoting them verbatim.

Hebrews 3

Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly received the good news failed to enter because of disobedience, again he appoints a certain day, “Today,” saying through David so long afterward, in the words already quoted,
“Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts.”

Jeremiah 31

And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them

Ezekiel 34

And I will set up over them one shepherd, my servant David, and he shall feed them: he shall feed them and be their shepherd.

Romans 11

And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”

If you want more then specify them. Your request was pretty general.

Posted: **May 12th, 2019, 5:25 pm**

Section 91

Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Kirtland, Ohio, March 9, 1833. The Prophet was at this time engaged in the translation of the Old Testament. Having come to that portion of the ancient writings called the Apocrypha, he inquired of the Lord and received this instruction.

1–3, The Apocrypha is mostly translated correctly but contains many interpolations by the hands of men that are not true; 4–6, It benefits those enlightened by the Spirit.

1 Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you concerning the Apocrypha—There are many things contained therein that are true, and it is mostly translated correctly;

2 There are many things contained therein that are not true, which are interpolations by the hands of men.

3 Verily, I say unto you, that it is not needful that the Apocrypha should be translated.

4 Therefore, whoso readeth it, let him understand, for the Spirit manifesteth truth;

5 And whoso is enlightened by the Spirit shall obtain benefit therefrom;

6 And whoso receiveth not by the Spirit, cannot be benefited. Therefore it is not needful that it should be translated. Amen.

So, to quote from the Apocrypha just to be quoting it may be giving false information to others. It is imperative that those reading the Apocrypha learn by the Spirit, truth from error.

Posted: **May 12th, 2019, 5:51 pm**

You left that first bit small about it mostly being translated correctly.

Hey what a coincidence. President Nelson said wet learn to receive from the Spirit to survive spiritually.

Posted: **May 12th, 2019, 6:23 pm**

righteousrepublic wrote: ↑May 12th, 2019, 5:25 pm Section 91

Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Kirtland, Ohio, March 9, 1833. The Prophet was at this time engaged in the translation of the Old Testament. Having come to that portion of the ancient writings called the Apocrypha, he inquired of the Lord and received this instruction.

1–3, The Apocrypha is mostly translated correctly but contains many interpolations by the hands of men that are not true; 4–6, It benefits those enlightened by the Spirit.

1 Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you concerning the Apocrypha—There are many things contained therein that are true, and it is mostly translated correctly;

2 There are many things contained therein that are not true, which are interpolations by the hands of men.

3 Verily, I say unto you, that it is not needful that the Apocrypha should be translated.

4 Therefore, whoso readeth it, let him understand, for the Spirit manifesteth truth;

5 And whoso is enlightened by the Spirit shall obtain benefit therefrom;

6 And whoso receiveth not by the Spirit, cannot be benefited. Therefore it is not needful that it should be translated. Amen.

So, to quote from the Apocrypha just to be quoting it may be giving false information to others. It is imperative that those reading the Apocrypha learn by the Spirit, truth from error.

I don't recall seeing any reference to the Apocrypha in Alaris's previous post while skimming it. Could you quote the relevant part you are addressing in this post? That makes it clear for everyone else who may have missed the reference, and demonstrates that you aren't going off on some unrelated tangent.

Posted: **May 12th, 2019, 6:39 pm**

I quoted the book of Enoch or 1 Enoch which is the Ethiopian Book of Enoch of which Hugh Nibley wrote a large volume.

Should we avoid the Apocrypha out of fear of error or should we seek the mysteries and listen to the Spirit even if it takes us to the Apocrypha? I mean we have scriptures and don't need any more scripture

(jk)

Oh and there is this

D&C 107:57 These things were all written in the book of Enoch, and are to be testified of in due time.

Posted: **May 12th, 2019, 6:52 pm**

Alaris wrote: ↑May 12th, 2019, 6:39 pm I quoted the book of Enoch or 1 Enoch which is the Ethiopian Book of Enoch of which Hugh Nibley wrote a large volume.

Should we avoid the Apocrypha out of fear of error or should we seek the mysteries and listen to the Spirit even if it takes us to the Apocrypha? I mean we have scriptures and don't need any more scripture (jk)

Oh and there is this

D&C 107:57 These things were all written in the book of Enoch, and are to be testified of in due time.

*double checks you to make sure you ain't pulling my leg*

Well, what do ya know... Ha ha. Thats awesome!

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