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We don't vote on Church Leaders at any level
Posted: March 27th, 2018, 8:43 am
by Arenera
“All leaders in the Lord’s Church are called by proper authority,” President Russell M. Nelson taught. “No prophet or any other leader in this Church, for that matter, has ever called himself or herself. No prophet has ever been elected. The Lord made that clear when He said, ‘Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you’ (John 15:16). You and I do not ‘vote’ on Church leaders at any level. We do, though, have the privilege of sustaining them” (“Sustaining the Prophets,” Oct. 2014 general conference).
Calling an Apostle of God
Re: We don't vote on Church Leaders at any level
Posted: March 27th, 2018, 9:00 am
by mcusick
Step 1: OP
Step 2: Quote D&C 20 "The elders are to receive their licenses from other elders, by vote of the church to which they belong, or from the conferences. Each priest, teacher, or deacon, who is ordained by a priest, may take a certificate from him at the time, which certificate, when presented to an elder, shall entitle him to a license, which shall authorize him to perform the duties of his calling, or he may receive it from a conference. No person is to be ordained to any office in this church, where there is a regularly organized branch of the same, without the vote of that church; But the presiding elders, traveling bishops, high councilors, high priests, and elders, may have the privilege of ordaining, where there is no branch of the church that a vote may be called."
Step 3: Silly people fight; no one's mind is changed.
Step 4: Thread dies.
Step 5: Someone makes a new thread with the same topic 1 month later.
Step 6: This thread is resurrected 4 years later for no reason.
Re: We don't vote on Church Leaders at any level
Posted: March 27th, 2018, 9:04 am
by Lyster
Sure we do.
Here's another way of looking at it beyond mcusick's post:
Acts 1
21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,
22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.
23 And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.
24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
The method used to determine Matthias' ordination was a gamble that they believed would be in the Lord's hands. (Would there be an uproar if that was how it was done today?) But, originally, they came to the Lord with the two men they had rendered worthy. They voted for those two, and let the Lord (or luck?) decide.
The process of selecting leaders is generally the same, and I'll use this role as an example for no reason:
Stake President loses a councilor (for whatever reason). Stake President interviews the bishops of the wards in his stake (note: not all the worthy males). He tries to figure out between them which of them should be elevated. He asks those bishops who has a good option for a new bishop. He casts his vote in this way. As that man goes up the ladder, he is continually interviewed and voted upon.
"But wait, no!" you say. "That goes against how the Lord works. He calls all the people and confirms it!"
Sure, yes, he does confirm the decision... the decision that was brought before him by the person or people responsible. "Lord, tell us who should be as we roll the dice."
What I just described doesn't go against the law of God. Men are to be agents unto themselves. Men exercise their judgement to further the church because it needs to happen to continue.
That's how we sometimes get Judases, or others who abuse authority. Was it because God told them that Joe Bob was the perfect candidate, and perfect in his generations? No, it was because people took what they saw - "as far as I can tell, this man seems to be worthy and have a testimony" and went to the Lord. And the Lord said, as he often does, "you are agents unto yourselves".
That's also how we sometimes get Peters, or Pauls, or Matthiases. And good men, leading justly. Because they were interviewed and found worthy. And honestly, it would be very difficult to interview 300 people for a job.
Is it 100% led by inspiration and revelation? Theoretically, it could be, but no.
Does that make it bad? No.
Do we have a say? Do we determine who gets put into positions? Yes.
Re: We don't vote on Church Leaders at any level
Posted: March 27th, 2018, 9:09 am
by ajax
144 And a commandment I give unto you, that you should fill all these offices and approve of those names which I have mentioned, or else disapprove of them at my general conference;
Approve or disapprove.
Yea or nay.
And the vote is?
Re: We don't vote on Church Leaders at any level
Posted: March 27th, 2018, 9:33 am
by Arenera
Elder D. Todd Christofferson of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles explained that the selection and calling of new Apostles is the prerogative of the President of the Church, who may ask his counselors and the members of the Quorum of the Twelve to give him names they would recommend and feel impressed he should consider.
“What process he goes through exactly, I'm not sure. That’s, again, something private he pursues,” Elder Christofferson said. “He then brings back, when he’s reached his decision and had the inspiration he needs, the name or names to the council that we have of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles to sustain it. That goes forward to general conference” (in Tad Walch, “Elder Christofferson Talks about How President Monson Calls a New Apostle, Reflects on Elder Scott,” Deseret News, Sept. 24, 2015).
Re: We don't vote on Church Leaders at any level
Posted: March 27th, 2018, 10:11 am
by investigator
Arenera wrote: ↑March 27th, 2018, 8:43 am
“All leaders in the Lord’s Church are called by proper authority,” President Russell M. Nelson taught. “No prophet or any other leader in this Church, for that matter, has ever called himself or herself. No prophet has ever been elected. The Lord made that clear when He said, ‘Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you’ (John 15:16). You and I do not ‘vote’ on Church leaders at any level. We do, though, have the privilege of sustaining them” (“Sustaining the Prophets,” Oct. 2014 general conference).
Calling an Apostle of God
Not anymore we don’t!
The First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve have made choice of George Q. Cannon to fill the vacancy in the Quorum of the Twelve. He is pretty generally known by the people. He has been raised in the Church, and was one of our prominent Elders in the Sandwich Islands. He went upon that mission when he was quite young. He is also known by many as the Editor of a paper which he published in California, called The Western Standard. He is now East, assisting in the transaction of business and taking charge of this year's emigration. I will present his name to the congregation to become a member of the Quorum of the Twelve, to fill the vacancy occasioned by the death of Parley P. Pratt. If this is pleasing to you, you will be so kind as to vote accordingly.
[The vote was unanimous.] Journal of Discourses
Re: We don't vote on Church Leaders at any level
Posted: March 27th, 2018, 10:41 am
by Arenera
investigator wrote: ↑March 27th, 2018, 10:11 am
Arenera wrote: ↑March 27th, 2018, 8:43 am
“All leaders in the Lord’s Church are called by proper authority,” President Russell M. Nelson taught. “No prophet or any other leader in this Church, for that matter, has ever called himself or herself. No prophet has ever been elected. The Lord made that clear when He said, ‘Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you’ (John 15:16). You and I do not ‘vote’ on Church leaders at any level. We do, though, have the privilege of sustaining them” (“Sustaining the Prophets,” Oct. 2014 general conference).
Calling an Apostle of God
Not anymore we don’t!
The First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve have made choice of George Q. Cannon to fill the vacancy in the Quorum of the Twelve. He is pretty generally known by the people. He has been raised in the Church, and was one of our prominent Elders in the Sandwich Islands. He went upon that mission when he was quite young. He is also known by many as the Editor of a paper which he published in California, called The Western Standard. He is now East, assisting in the transaction of business and taking charge of this year's emigration. I will present his name to the congregation to become a member of the Quorum of the Twelve, to fill the vacancy occasioned by the death of Parley P. Pratt. If this is pleasing to you, you will be so kind as to vote accordingly.
[The vote was unanimous.] Journal of Discourses
So I went further back than you did...
No prophet has ever been elected. The Lord made that clear when He said, ‘Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you’ (John 15:16).
Re: We don't vote on Church Leaders at any level
Posted: March 27th, 2018, 10:53 am
by investigator
“I was unanimously elected President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Heber C. Kimball and Willard Richards were in like manner elected respectively my first, and second counselors[.]”Manuscript History of Brigham Young, Vol. 3, p. 82
Re: We don't vote on Church Leaders at any level
Posted: March 27th, 2018, 11:00 am
by Arenera
investigator wrote: ↑March 27th, 2018, 10:53 am
“I was unanimously elected President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Heber C. Kimball and Willard Richards were in like manner elected respectively my first, and second counselors[.]”Manuscript History of Brigham Young, Vol. 3, p. 82
And who were the opposing candidates?
Re: We don't vote on Church Leaders at any level
Posted: March 27th, 2018, 11:12 am
by shadow
investigator wrote: ↑March 27th, 2018, 10:11 am
Arenera wrote: ↑March 27th, 2018, 8:43 am
“All leaders in the Lord’s Church are called by proper authority,” President Russell M. Nelson taught. “No prophet or any other leader in this Church, for that matter, has ever called himself or herself. No prophet has ever been elected. The Lord made that clear when He said, ‘Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you’ (John 15:16). You and I do not ‘vote’ on Church leaders at any level. We do, though, have the privilege of sustaining them” (“Sustaining the Prophets,” Oct. 2014 general conference).
Calling an Apostle of God
Not anymore we don’t!
The First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve have made choice of George Q. Cannon to fill the vacancy in the Quorum of the Twelve. He is pretty generally known by the people. He has been raised in the Church, and was one of our prominent Elders in the Sandwich Islands. He went upon that mission when he was quite young. He is also known by many as the Editor of a paper which he published in California, called The Western Standard. He is now East, assisting in the transaction of business and taking charge of this year's emigration. I will present his name to the congregation to become a member of the Quorum of the Twelve, to fill the vacancy occasioned by the death of Parley P. Pratt. If this is pleasing to you, you will be so kind as to vote accordingly.
[The vote was unanimous.] Journal of Discourses
So the first presidency and the 12 called Cannon and the people voted to sustain him or oppose him. So what's changed? I bet this weekend we'll do the exact same thing. The first presidency and the 12 will have chosen 2 new apostles and the people can vote to sustain or oppose.
Re: We don't vote on Church Leaders at any level
Posted: March 27th, 2018, 11:40 am
by Arenera
shadow wrote: ↑March 27th, 2018, 11:12 am
investigator wrote: ↑March 27th, 2018, 10:11 am
Arenera wrote: ↑March 27th, 2018, 8:43 am
“All leaders in the Lord’s Church are called by proper authority,” President Russell M. Nelson taught. “No prophet or any other leader in this Church, for that matter, has ever called himself or herself. No prophet has ever been elected. The Lord made that clear when He said, ‘Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you’ (John 15:16). You and I do not ‘vote’ on Church leaders at any level. We do, though, have the privilege of sustaining them” (“Sustaining the Prophets,” Oct. 2014 general conference).
Calling an Apostle of God
Not anymore we don’t!
The First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve have made choice of George Q. Cannon to fill the vacancy in the Quorum of the Twelve. He is pretty generally known by the people. He has been raised in the Church, and was one of our prominent Elders in the Sandwich Islands. He went upon that mission when he was quite young. He is also known by many as the Editor of a paper which he published in California, called The Western Standard. He is now East, assisting in the transaction of business and taking charge of this year's emigration. I will present his name to the congregation to become a member of the Quorum of the Twelve, to fill the vacancy occasioned by the death of Parley P. Pratt. If this is pleasing to you, you will be so kind as to vote accordingly.
[The vote was unanimous.] Journal of Discourses
So the first presidency and the 12 called Cannon and the people voted to sustain him or oppose him. So what's changed? I bet this weekend we'll do the exact same thing. The first presidency and the 12 will have chosen 2 new apostles and the people can vote to sustain or oppose.
What is the definition of vote?
noun
1.
a formal indication of a choice between two or more candidates or courses of action, expressed typically through a ballot or a show of hands or by voice.
What we call sustaining, you could call a "vote by the show of hands"? But as members we don't select the people, leaders do that.
Re: We don't vote on Church Leaders at any level
Posted: March 27th, 2018, 11:55 am
by Craig Johnson
When we raise our hands to support or to not support, to sustain or to not sustain, it is a form of electing, to call it electing is not wrong. However, this is not the same as electing a political candidate. The Lord picks the person and we can either have faith in that or not, we can either believe our Church leaders are inspired by God or not. We can elect to support the person who is called or not. But to compare the process to our political process shows a real lack of understanding or just outright deviousness, they are not the same and they never will be the same. They are not meant to be the same, if they were the same the Church would have stopped gaining in membership long ago.
Re: We don't vote on Church Leaders at any level
Posted: March 27th, 2018, 12:51 pm
by gardener4life
There's a distinction. We do a "SUSTAINING VOTE" which isn't like a political vote. A sustaining vote is that we honor and sustain such and such in certain callings as inspired and called of God (not called of men.) Sustaining vote is important in showing the Lord on judgment day that we supported and built up his kingdom. It is our privilege to do, to show our faith and valiance to Heavenly Father.
It isn't to take over, or push Heavenly Father out of his kingdom. That's Satan's plan.
There's a distinction that we're letting Heavenly Father be in charge. We're trusting him and Jesus and letting them lead and guide us. Part of why we do it this way is that they remember more about us than we know about ourselves. To trust the Savior in this world, we had to do so with faith implicitly in all things, following him through all things and adversity. We had to show we would try to be like him even when it's not easy. We had to trust others and accept not being in charge. That when we fall he would catch us if we were playing for his team in full faith and repentance. And this is what faith is; not being in charge of everything ourselves is also part of faith.
So yes...sustaining vote.
We're telling the Lord we're on his team, and that we'll support and cooperate with the other players. And love them too.
Re: We don't vote on Church Leaders at any level
Posted: March 27th, 2018, 2:25 pm
by shadow
Arenera wrote: ↑March 27th, 2018, 11:40 am
shadow wrote: ↑March 27th, 2018, 11:12 am
investigator wrote: ↑March 27th, 2018, 10:11 am
Not anymore we don’t!
The First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve have made choice of George Q. Cannon to fill the vacancy in the Quorum of the Twelve. He is pretty generally known by the people. He has been raised in the Church, and was one of our prominent Elders in the Sandwich Islands. He went upon that mission when he was quite young. He is also known by many as the Editor of a paper which he published in California, called The Western Standard. He is now East, assisting in the transaction of business and taking charge of this year's emigration. I will present his name to the congregation to become a member of the Quorum of the Twelve, to fill the vacancy occasioned by the death of Parley P. Pratt. If this is pleasing to you, you will be so kind as to vote accordingly.
[The vote was unanimous.] Journal of Discourses
So the first presidency and the 12 called Cannon and the people voted to sustain him or oppose him. So what's changed? I bet this weekend we'll do the exact same thing. The first presidency and the 12 will have chosen 2 new apostles and the people can vote to sustain or oppose.
What is the definition of vote?
noun
1.
a formal indication of a choice between two or more candidates or courses of action, expressed typically through a ballot or a show of hands or by voice.
What we call sustaining, you could call a "vote by the show of hands"? But as members we don't select the people, leaders do that.
No argument from me. We cast our personal vote to either sustain or oppose but it's not our responsibility to act in the office of another.
109 Therefore, let every man stand in his own office, and labor in his own calling; and let not the head say unto the feet it hath no need of the feet; for without the feet how shall the body be able to stand?
58 It is the duty of the Twelve, also, to ordain and set in order all the other officers of the church
Re: We don't vote on Church Leaders at any level
Posted: March 27th, 2018, 3:40 pm
by investigator
Arenera wrote: ↑March 27th, 2018, 11:00 am
investigator wrote: ↑March 27th, 2018, 10:53 am
“I was unanimously elected President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Heber C. Kimball and Willard Richards were in like manner elected respectively my first, and second counselors[.]”Manuscript History of Brigham Young, Vol. 3, p. 82
And who were the opposing candidates?
As a matter of fact, Brigham Young and Sidney Rigdon. Additionally, you do not have to have opposing candidates to have an election. Have you ever voted for a proposition ? Or yes / no for someone or something?
Even Joseph Smith was elected to the position of President of the Church.
“If men are elected by this Church, it is by Election-Joseph was ordained an Apostle- but the Church elected him as a President, Prophet-Seer and Revelator- But he was never ordained to that office.” The Complete Discourses of Brigham Young
Brigham Young was never ordained to be President of the Church either. Because they believed the common consent of the members of the church was enough.
D&C 20: 65 No person is to be ordained to any office in this church, where there is a regularly organized branch of the same, without the vote of that church;
In the early days of the Church everything was done by common consent of the members of the church. Not anymore.
I know that President Nelson is a very busy man with him being a heart surgeon and speaking fluent Chinese and all his church duties, so you can't expect him to know everything about church history. Therefore, I give him a pass for not knowing that our first two Presidents of the church were elected. I believe he was referring to President of the Church when he said "No prophet has ever been elected". If he meant Prophet in the sense of, a person who has the gift of prophecy, then he is correct, that gift can only be given by God. A prophet in that sense cannot be elected or ordained.
Re: We don't vote on Church Leaders at any level
Posted: March 27th, 2018, 7:18 pm
by Craig Johnson
investigator wrote: ↑March 27th, 2018, 3:40 pm
Arenera wrote: ↑March 27th, 2018, 11:00 am
investigator wrote: ↑March 27th, 2018, 10:53 am
“I was unanimously elected President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Heber C. Kimball and Willard Richards were in like manner elected respectively my first, and second counselors[.]”Manuscript History of Brigham Young, Vol. 3, p. 82
And who were the opposing candidates?
As a matter of fact, Brigham Young and Sidney Rigdon. Additionally, you do not have to have opposing candidates to have an election. Have you ever voted for a proposition ? Or yes / no for someone or something?
Even Joseph Smith was elected to the position of President of the Church.
“If men are elected by this Church, it is by Election-Joseph was ordained an Apostle- but the Church elected him as a President, Prophet-Seer and Revelator- But he was never ordained to that office.” The Complete Discourses of Brigham Young
Brigham Young was never ordained to be President of the Church either. Because they believed the common consent of the members of the church was enough.
D&C 20: 65 No person is to be ordained to any office in this church, where there is a regularly organized branch of the same, without the vote of that church;
In the early days of the Church everything was done by common consent of the members of the church. Not anymore.
I know that President Nelson is a very busy man with him being a heart surgeon and speaking fluent Chinese and all his church duties, so you can't expect him to know everything about church history. Therefore, I give him a pass for not knowing that our first two Presidents of the church were elected. I believe he was referring to President of the Church when he said "No prophet has ever been elected". If he meant Prophet in the sense of, a person who has the gift of prophecy, then he is correct, that gift can only be given by God. A prophet in that sense cannot be elected or ordained.
The vote for Brigham Young was actually a sustaining. If he had not been sustained the Church likely would have died and our chances of becoming members would also have died and that would have been a tragedy of immense proportions, the fact that Sidney Rigdon did what he did AND THEN FELL AWAY INTO APOSTASY should tell everyone something:
"August 8, 1844
During a 10:00 a.m. meeting, Sidney Rigdon speaks for an hour and a half to thousands of assembled Saints, explaining why he should be guardian of the Church. Brigham Young also speaks and calls for the Saints to gather again for a meeting at 2:00 p.m.
Throughout the day, many members of the Church received a witness that the mantle, or authority, of the Prophet Joseph Smith fell upon Brigham Young. During the 2:00 p.m. meeting, the Saints sustain Brigham Young and the Twelve Apostles as the Church’s leaders.
During both meetings, many Saints witness Brigham Young temporarily appear and sound like the Prophet Joseph Smith."
From:
https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrine-and ... y?lang=eng
Re: We don't vote on Church Leaders at any level
Posted: March 27th, 2018, 7:26 pm
by OCDMOM
It is good thing we don't vote. People always vote based on looks and money.
Re: We don't vote on Church Leaders at any level
Posted: March 27th, 2018, 7:29 pm
by Craig Johnson
OCDMOM wrote: ↑March 27th, 2018, 7:26 pm
It is good thing we don't vote. People always vote based on looks and money.
Then I should be President of the U.S., oh wait, the money thing.