LDS Freedom Forum

Arenera wrote: ↑March 23rd, 2018, 8:25 am See 2nd Nephi 33.

7 I have charity for my people, and great faith in Christ that I shall meet many souls spotless at his judgment-seat.

12 And I pray the Father in the name of Christ that many of us, if not all, may be saved in his kingdom at that great and last day.

15 For what I seal on earth, shall be brought against you at the judgment bar; for thus hath the Lord commanded me, and I must obey. Amen.

inquirringmind wrote: ↑March 23rd, 2018, 7:09 am It's Mormon remnant doctrine that no one who's heard the restored gospel can get to heaven (the third heaven, where God is) without achieving perfection, and being admitted into God's presence, while here in the flesh.

Can it be proven, from scripture, that that's false doctrine?

Or could they be right?

They don't accept D&C 138 as scripture btw.

So is there any evidence, aside from D&C 138, that they're teaching false doctrine here?

BTH&T wrote: ↑March 24th, 2018, 10:53 am

Arenera wrote: ↑March 23rd, 2018, 8:25 am See 2nd Nephi 33.

7 I have charity for my people, and great faith in Christ that I shall meet many souls spotless at his judgment-seat.

12 And I pray the Father in the name of Christ that many of us, if not all, may be saved in his kingdom at that great and last day.

15 For what I seal on earth, shall be brought against you at the judgment bar; for thus hath the Lord commanded me, and I must obey. Amen.

Another thread, same misconception.
The scripture quoted was a prayer for what is a desire for all to return, not a proclamation of the Lords Plan.

We will not be saved in our sins.

AI2.0 wrote: ↑March 24th, 2018, 11:02 am

inquirringmind wrote: ↑March 23rd, 2018, 7:09 am It's Mormon remnant doctrine that no one who's heard the restored gospel can get to heaven (the third heaven, where God is) without achieving perfection, and being admitted into God's presence, while here in the flesh.

Can it be proven, from scripture, that that's false doctrine?

Or could they be right?

They don't accept D&C 138 as scripture btw.

So is there any evidence, aside from D&C 138, that they're teaching false doctrine here?

Inquiring mind, I believe you've said that you are not LDS. It's surprising that you are investigating the Remnant and you aren't LDS, but I guess that can happen. Anyway, I'm assuming you don't know LDS teachings and that's why you ask this question.

You are correct, Denver Snuffer has taught his followers that they cannot enter the Celestial Kingdom unless they see Jesus Christ in the flesh. That means that anyone, baby, child, adult, non-mormon, mormon, whatever--none of them, can enter the Celestial kingdom, unless they see Christ while they are in this mortal life--and it needs to be in person.

You ask if there are LDS scriptures that can prove this is false doctrine?

If you are asking for a scripture that says 'You can enter the Celestial kingdom whether or not you see Christ in the flesh', no. there isn't. Why would there be, since this was never something I know of that anyone else has ever suggested in the ages that the scriptures were written to combat false teachings, let alone in among those in the LDS church.

You need to remember that Denver Snuffer was a practicing, believing Mormon up until just a few years ago. He knew what the church taught and he knew the basic principles of the gospel. He knew and he knows now that this was NEVER a teaching of the church, it was his teaching--which he grew and developed out of some things that Joseph Smith did teach--but Snuffer expanded and put his own spin on them. Just like other break off sects and false prophets have done for two centuries in opposing the true teachings of the gospel.

Snuffer's 'doctrine' was NEVER a teaching of the LDS church. Snuffer likes to pride himself (or he used to) that he was being 'true to' and restoring the church back to what Joseph Smith created. Then Snuffer went way off the rails with all these kinds of things--an example is claiming that seven women had to sustain a man for him to use his priesthood--not something Joseph Smith ever said. And Joseph never said a person had to see Jesus Christ in the flesh. Never. He said they should 'strive' for it, work for it, etc. THAT is a doctrine of the LDS church and something that we as members aspire to obtain.

This is what we call the doctrine of 'calling and election made sure'--which is what Joseph did teach and we still believe and teach: to receive the second comforter, or to come into the presence of the Lord and know, with a surety, that we are saved. But, that's not the same as what Snuffer is teaching and it was never put forth by Joseph as something that had to be accomplished in this life, or the person was lost to the lower kingdoms.

Actually, Joseph, the Book of Mormon and our modern prophets have all taught that Baptism, by one having proper authority, is the entrance into the Celestial Kingdom. Also, Mormon taught that little Children didn't even need baptism (they are the only ones) to enter the Celestial kingdom because they were saved by the Atonement because they have not reached the age of accountablility and so are not condemned under the law. This is why Mormons perform proxy baptism. Because in order for each of us (who die after the age of accountability, age 8) to enter the Celestial kingdom, we must be baptised, in the proper manner, by one having authority. Snuffer's teaching relegates even children and righteous, believers to lower kingdoms if they haven't seen Jesus in the flesh, not something that LDS would ever condone and I'm certain Joseph Smith and Mormon would have condemned!

So, LDS scriptures DO prove that Denver Snuffer's teaching is false. And no. They can't be right, because his teaching contradicts the very basic, foundational and fundamental teaching of the church that Baptism is the entrance into the Celestial Kingdom--Baptism is the key, and seeing Jesus Christ in the flesh is NOT a requirement for entrance into the Celestial kingdom. It's something all committed and devout members should strive for, but it's not THE only way to return to live with Heavenly Father. And, frankly, we will all see Jesus christ when we leave this mortal life, IF we lived our lives in such a way that we are worthy and prepared to stand in his presence.

Personally, I've never understood how Denver Snuffer was able to so mislead his followers to reject this basic and foundational doctrine of Baptism, which Joseph Smith established and the Book of Mormon supports. The scriptures PROVE that Baptism is the entrance to the celestial kingdom, but apparently Snuffer and his followers have rejected this. I wonder if they will scrub their scriptures of this notion so as to preserve their version of how one enters the Kingdom of Heaven...

Arenera wrote: ↑March 24th, 2018, 11:12 am
Jesus already saved you, do you accept it?

Nephi has the sealing power, i’m sure his prayers are listened to.

BTH&T wrote: ↑March 24th, 2018, 2:00 pm

Arenera wrote: ↑March 24th, 2018, 11:12 am
Jesus already saved you, do you accept it?

Nephi has the sealing power, i’m sure his prayers are listened to.

That sure has a born again tone to it.

Basics, we each have come to earth and received a body.
We each have been saved, meaning we all have immortality as a free gift because of the Savoir.
We each have an opportunity to receive eternal glory and be reunited with our Father in Heaven by making the atonement effective in our lives. This is accomplished by faith, repentance and obedience.

Sealing is based on faithfulness.

There are 2 deaths, spiritual and physical. The Savoir conquered both!

Are you only concerned with one?
Do you believe you can sin and not repent and still receive blessings of the Celestial Kingdom because of sealing power?

inquirringmind wrote: ↑March 24th, 2018, 10:16 am

inho wrote: ↑March 23rd, 2018, 8:31 am

inquirringmind wrote: ↑March 23rd, 2018, 7:16 am The remnant folks say that no one who's heard the restored gospel can get to heaven (the third heaven, where God is) without achieving perfection, and being admitted into God's presence, while here in the flesh.

Can it be proven, from scripture, that that's false doctrine?

Or could they be right?

They don't accept D&C 138 as scripture btw.

So is there any evidence, aside from D&C 138, that they're teaching false doctrine here?

That would mean that no one living without the chance to accept the Gospel can get into the highest glory. Unless there are multiple mortal probations. Do you really mean to refer to D&C 138 or did you mean 137, where Joseph saw his unbaptized dead brother Alvin in the celestial kingdom?

Anyway, what does it even mean to hear the gospel? Does it mean that missionaries taught you the first lesson? That you read the BoM and felt the Spirit? Is it on/off thing? In my opinion conversion is a process, and it is more important that what direction you are heading than how far you get. Just as not all have the chance to accept the gospel, not all who do have as much time to progress.

On top of my head, I cannot come up with any scriptures to refute their arguments. However, scripture bashing is usually pointless anyway. People can interpret the same passages with so many different ways.

I was thinking of D&C 138.

They're teaching (as I understand it) is that no one who has heard "the restored gospel," and doesn't achieve perfection in this life (being invited into God's presence, and seeing Him while here in the flesh), can make it to celestial glory in the afterlife.

That wouldn't include Alvin, would it?

I saw Father Adam, and Abraham and Michael, and my father and mother, my brother Alvin [Smith] that has long since slept, and marveled how it was that he had obtained an inheritance in that Kingdom, seeing that he had departed this life before the Lord had set his hand to gather Israel the second time and had not been baptized for the remission of sins.

Arenera wrote: ↑March 24th, 2018, 2:30 pm
Have you been good enough to get into the Celestial Kingdom?

Let’s say so, but one of you children or grandchildren veered off and can’t make it.

What are you going to do?

This thread is about only a few making it. I reject that.

Arenera wrote: ↑March 24th, 2018, 6:39 pm O the greatness of the mercy of our God, the Holy One of Israel!
For he delivereth his saints from that awful monster the devil, and death, and hell, and that lake of fire and brimstone, which is endless torment.

BTH&T wrote: ↑March 24th, 2018, 7:02 pm

Arenera wrote: ↑March 24th, 2018, 6:39 pm O the greatness of the mercy of our God, the Holy One of Israel!
For he delivereth his saints from that awful monster the devil, and death, and hell, and that lake of fire and brimstone, which is endless torment.

You are so correct, it is through Jesus Christ, and only him!

So what is your part in this? What is required of you?
If it is nothing, then what matters?

The reason that there are few is because too many think that it takes no effort, or that sins here and there un-repented of are no problem, mercy will overlook that.
Justice demands it's share, that's why Faith, Repentance, and Obedience Matter!

It's an all or nothing proposition, you take the whole Gospel plan or you pick and choose what suits your fancy.
That's why there will be few that find eternal life within the Celestial Kingdom, too many want to pick and choose what they want.

Our Father in Heaven already lost one third of his spirit children because they wanted to be saved with no effort.
This earth life will be no different, all will not return to HIS Presence.

Arenera wrote: ↑March 24th, 2018, 7:18 pm
Are you Remnant?

inquirringmind wrote: ↑March 23rd, 2018, 7:09 am It's Mormon remnant doctrine that no one who's heard the restored gospel can get to heaven (the third heaven, where God is) without achieving perfection, and being admitted into God's presence, while here in the flesh.

Can it be proven, from scripture, that that's false doctrine?

Or could they be right?

They don't accept D&C 138 as scripture btw.

So is there any evidence, aside from D&C 138, that they're teaching false doctrine here?

BTH&T wrote: ↑March 24th, 2018, 7:27 pm

Arenera wrote: ↑March 24th, 2018, 7:18 pm
Are you Remnant?

Not in the least!
No desire to follow anything but our Savior and His Restored gospel.

Arenera wrote: ↑March 24th, 2018, 7:47 pm

BTH&T wrote: ↑March 24th, 2018, 7:27 pm

Arenera wrote: ↑March 24th, 2018, 7:18 pm
Are you Remnant?

Not in the least!
No desire to follow anything but our Savior and His Restored gospel.

Don’t settle for a few then. Essentially, the current population over 7 bill need to have the gospel taught to them. And that will be done.

We ask then, where is the prototype? Or where is the saved being? We conclude as to the answer of this question there will be no dispute among those who believe the Bible, that it is Christ. All will agree in this that he is the prototype or standard of salvation, or in other words that he is a saved being. And if we should continue our interrogation, and ask how it is that he is saved, the answer would be because he is a just and holy being; and if he were anything diverent from what he is, he would not be saved; ...for his salvation depends on his being precisely what he is and nothing else; Lectures on Faith

Joseph Smith prepared the Lectures on Faith

“During the month of January [1835], I was engaged in the school of the Elders, and in preparing the lectures on theology for publication in the book of Doctrine and Covenants, which the committee appointed last September were now compiling.”[ 141] PTR DHC 2: 180.

http://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper- ... er-1838/17

jdt wrote: ↑March 25th, 2018, 7:21 am Proclaiming the necessity of obtaining the Second Comforter in this life is chump change. Denver said that Christ is the prototype of the saved man. He said that we need to be precisely what Jesus is and nothing else. Jesus did a whole lot more than see His Father during his mortal lifetime. And Denver has the audacity to claim that we need to do all that too or else we are not saved. And note that he said "saved" and not "exalted". And he also claims that this concept is part of the leading items of the religion which he professes to believe and that it embraces the important doctrine of salvation.
Since I am not a member of your church, I will let those who are state whether this far more expansive view is in line with current church teachings.

DesertWonderer2 wrote: ↑March 25th, 2018, 8:20 am

jdt wrote: ↑March 25th, 2018, 7:21 am Proclaiming the necessity of obtaining the Second Comforter in this life is chump change. Denver said that Christ is the prototype of the saved man. He said that we need to be precisely what Jesus is and nothing else. Jesus did a whole lot more than see His Father during his mortal lifetime. And Denver has the audacity to claim that we need to do all that too or else we are not saved. And note that he said "saved" and not "exalted". And he also claims that this concept is part of the leading items of the religion which he professes to believe and that it embraces the important doctrine of salvation.
Since I am not a member of your church, I will let those who are state whether this far more expansive view is in line with current church teachings.

Denver Snuffer has corrupted the true gosple of Jesus Christ. Do yourself a favor and stay away from him, his doctrine and his followers.

investigator wrote: ↑March 25th, 2018, 8:28 am

DesertWonderer2 wrote: ↑March 25th, 2018, 8:20 am

jdt wrote: ↑March 25th, 2018, 7:21 am Proclaiming the necessity of obtaining the Second Comforter in this life is chump change. Denver said that Christ is the prototype of the saved man. He said that we need to be precisely what Jesus is and nothing else. Jesus did a whole lot more than see His Father during his mortal lifetime. And Denver has the audacity to claim that we need to do all that too or else we are not saved. And note that he said "saved" and not "exalted". And he also claims that this concept is part of the leading items of the religion which he professes to believe and that it embraces the important doctrine of salvation.
Since I am not a member of your church, I will let those who are state whether this far more expansive view is in line with current church teachings.

Denver Snuffer has corrupted the true gosple of Jesus Christ. Do yourself a favor and stay away from him, his doctrine and his followers.

Actually, Jdt is quoting Joseph Smith not Snuffer.

jdt wrote: ↑March 25th, 2018, 7:21 am Proclaiming the necessity of obtaining the Second Comforter in this life is chump change. Denver said that Christ is the prototype of the saved man. He said that we need to be precisely what Jesus is and nothing else. Jesus did a whole lot more than see His Father during his mortal lifetime. And Denver has the audacity to claim that we need to do all that too or else we are not saved. And note that he said "saved" and not "exalted". And he also claims that this concept is part of the leading items of the religion which he professes to believe and that it embraces the important doctrine of salvation.
Since I am not a member of your church, I will let those who are state whether this far more expansive view is in line with current church teachings.