Page 1 of 1

Anti-Mormon Born Again Christians

Posted: March 17th, 2018, 7:52 pm
by Jack Vance 79
First, I really don't comprehend evangelical non denominational born again Christians. Their belief system does not appear remotely Biblical, despite their insistence that their "religion" is Bible-based.

Second, I really do not like the anti-Mormon brand of evangelical Christian, which is a lot of them. So much so that I prefer the company of liberals, even though I am very conservative. I just don't experience the animosity from liberals compared to the venom spewed by your typical born again. It actually scares me more to have an anti-Mormon evangelical in power than a liberal. I think the liberal is more open minded and does not see me as some unsaved creature doomed to hell. Heck, they make me want to vote Marxist just to spite them.

There is a particular "group" of anti-Mormon born agains, inside Utah (and out), either former Mormons, or affiliated with former Mormons, who are on a crusade to invalidate the church, no matter the means. Now theological disputes are one thing, and church history is another, but their social media posts betray their darker feelings towards Mormons. They relish in it.

Among then are the following:

Rob Sivulka, loud mouth Joseph-Lied megaphone wielding Manti Pageant crusader. Married to Tara Nielsen, former Mormon who left the church.

Micah Wilder who converted to evangelical while on his mission in Florida. Led his mom, Lynn Wilder, a BYU professor at the time, out of the church. She is currently touring the west to promote her book about do called "scholars" who have left mormonism.

Sandra Tanner of the Utah Lighthouse Ministry down on West Temple. Need I say anything . . . ?

John Doss of Discovery Community Christian Center in Murray, Utah. Nice guy who hosts Sunday firesides on how Mormonism is wrong.

Tom Bowman, Bill McKeever, Aaron Shavaloff, the list goes on.

They're all in with each other.

Now their basic premise is that you only need to believe that Jesus is Lord to be saved. However, when you ask then more, this breaks down into multiple essential beliefs, which if you even have one doubt about, you are damned forever. Basically, believe what they tell you, or burn.

Where did this belief system originate? It seems very different to catholic or even earlier protestant religion? They seem so brainwashed. What is the pay off for them? It's not a license to sin, because they nevertheless do live good lives, and in fact they believe their good works are proof of their having been born again.

It scares me that so many Americans identify with this belief system.

Re: Anti-Mormon Born Again Christians

Posted: March 18th, 2018, 6:02 am
by Seek the Truth
Great post. Tbh, a very simplistic and flawed worldview. Like you said, ask them from the Bible what constitutes a Christian or what it takes to be saved and their criticism evaporates because we all qualify.

Re: Anti-Mormon Born Again Christians

Posted: March 18th, 2018, 1:33 pm
by abijah
Seek the Truth wrote: March 18th, 2018, 6:02 am Great post. Tbh, a very simplistic and flawed worldview. Like you said, ask them from the Bible what constitutes a Christian or what it takes to be saved and their criticism evaporates because we all qualify.
true. as a missionary i would testify that i believe in jesus christ to be my personal saviour. am i not pardoned for my suppposed heresies then?

Re: Anti-Mormon Born Again Christians

Posted: March 18th, 2018, 1:41 pm
by PressingForward
There is a difference in Salvation, and Exaltation. That’s where the born agains differ, they actually don’t believe in “sin no more”, or that good “works” will benefit you any, even though they do often perform good works.

Re: Anti-Mormon Born Again Christians

Posted: March 18th, 2018, 3:22 pm
by abijah
Born again’s believe the process of salvation is God acting upon me, pronouncing me “saved”. The truth is that I am to awaken and arouse my faculties, becoming an agent unto myself, using Christ’s sacrifice to work out my own salvation. Exaltation is the process of becoming.

Re: Anti-Mormon Born Again Christians

Posted: March 18th, 2018, 5:35 pm
by diligently seeking
abijah wrote: March 18th, 2018, 3:22 pm Born again’s believe the process of salvation is God acting upon me, pronouncing me “saved”. The truth is that I am to awaken and arouse my faculties, becoming an agent unto myself, using Christ’s sacrifice to work out my own salvation. Exaltation is the process of becoming.
The fact of the matter is no Mormon will be saved unless they're born of God. No amount of ordinances received will equal the hope and promise of eternal life-- unless we have been changed through the atonement of Jesus Christ and transcend church membership and become actual saints through his atonement. (See king Benjamin sermon / mossiah 2 through 5) I fear mormons --like SO much-- what the ensign and conference talks and church correlated curriculum & ces firesides tell us about what the message / interpretation of the book of mormon is instead of actually reading it & hungering and thirsting after the words of Jesus through it... When we do------ eventually because Jesus Christ is the rewarder of those who diligently seek him" Alma 5 and so much more becomes their living reality...

https://youtu.be/p8X8a7DtwUI

Re: Anti-Mormon Born Again Christians

Posted: March 19th, 2018, 10:29 am
by iskatel
Maybe try meeting with a few of them and build on some common ground?

Mosiah 27:25 And the Lord said unto me: Marvel not that all mankind, yea, men and women, all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, must be ###BORN AGAIN###; yea, born of God, changed from their carnal and fallen state, to a state of righteousness, being redeemed of God, becoming his sons and daughters;

Re: Anti-Mormon Born Again Christians

Posted: March 19th, 2018, 1:15 pm
by DesertWonderer2
JaredBees wrote: March 18th, 2018, 5:35 pm
abijah wrote: March 18th, 2018, 3:22 pm Born again’s believe the process of salvation is God acting upon me, pronouncing me “saved”. The truth is that I am to awaken and arouse my faculties, becoming an agent unto myself, using Christ’s sacrifice to work out my own salvation. Exaltation is the process of becoming.
The fact of the matter is no Mormon will be saved unless they're born of God. No amount of ordinances received will equal the hope and promise of eternal life-- unless we have been changed through the atonement of Jesus Christ and transcend church membership and become actual saints through his atonement. (See king Benjamin sermon / mossiah 2 through 5) I fear mormons --like SO much-- what the ensign and conference talks and church correlated curriculum & ces firesides tell us about what the message / interpretation of the book of mormon is instead of actually reading it & hungering and thirsting after the words of Jesus through it... When we do------ eventually because Jesus Christ is the rewarder of those who diligently seek him" Alma 5 and so much more becomes their living reality...

https://youtu.be/p8X8a7DtwUI
Why do the Snuffer types state the obvious making these sweeping pronouncements (like the one above or the recent post by Ezra that Mark destroyed w his follow up comment)) as if it were something that the vast majority of mainstream members didnt already know?

Here, I’ll answer my own question—It’s bc they themselves were that tiny majority that didnt know the obvious principle, but when they finally figured it out, they became disgrunteled and blammed the members and / or the church somehoe for their failings. You know that saying about a mote and a beam?

One of my favorite examples of this was several years ago, a snufferrite posted a video he had taken of himself trying to get up close and personal one of the GA’s. Somehow in his warpped little mind he blammed the church’s culture for trusting in the arm of flesh or hero worship or some such nonsese. It was pretty funny bc he was doing what he accused others of doing by getting this video of the GA. HE was doing the hero worship but blamed the church for promoting said hero worship. He applied his personal issues to the church at large and left bc THEY were corrupt.

Pretty funny stuff really.

Re: Anti-Mormon Born Again Christians

Posted: March 19th, 2018, 2:58 pm
by diligently seeking
DesertWonderer2 wrote: March 19th, 2018, 1:15 pm
JaredBees wrote: March 18th, 2018, 5:35 pm
abijah wrote: March 18th, 2018, 3:22 pm Born again’s believe the process of salvation is God acting upon me, pronouncing me “saved”. The truth is that I am to awaken and arouse my faculties, becoming an agent unto myself, using Christ’s sacrifice to work out my own salvation. Exaltation is the process of becoming.
The fact of the matter is no Mormon will be saved unless they're born of God. No amount of ordinances received will equal the hope and promise of eternal life-- unless we have been changed through the atonement of Jesus Christ and transcend church membership and become actual saints through his atonement. (See king Benjamin sermon / mossiah 2 through 5) I fear mormons --like SO much-- what the ensign and conference talks and church correlated curriculum & ces firesides tell us about what the message / interpretation of the book of mormon is instead of actually reading it & hungering and thirsting after the words of Jesus through it... When we do------ eventually because Jesus Christ is the rewarder of those who diligently seek him" Alma 5 and so much more becomes their living reality...

https://youtu.be/p8X8a7DtwUI
Why do the Snuffer types state the obvious making these sweeping pronouncements (like the one above or the recent post by Ezra that Mark destroyed w his follow up comment)) as if it were something that the vast majority of mainstream members didnt already know?

Here, I’ll answer my own question—It’s bc they themselves were that tiny majority that didnt know the obvious principle, but when they finally figured it out, they became disgrunteled and blammed the members and / or the church somehoe for their failings. You know that saying about a mote and a beam?

One of my favorite examples of this was several years ago, a snufferrite posted a video he had taken of himself trying to get up close and personal one of the GA’s. Somehow in his warpped little mind he blammed the church’s culture for trusting in the arm of flesh or hero worship or some such nonsese. It was pretty funny bc he was doing what he accused others of doing by getting this video of the GA. HE was doing the hero worship but blamed the church for promoting said hero worship. He applied his personal issues to the church at large and left bc THEY were corrupt.

Pretty funny stuff really.

DW2, I don't know you from anyone and can't make a real assessment of you. I don't have a memory to reference through your posts in getting a feel for who you are. I would love to hear about your personal born again experience when you received the holy ghost ( mosiah chp 4) and attendant spiritual gifts that followed like we learn about in the book of mormon, particularly mosiah chapter 5. In my 40 some odd years of living I've never heard what I briefly expressed, expressed in church, In the post you "d quoted of mine. I have been in a lot of different wards and stakes and have listend very attentively.

Re: Anti-Mormon Born Again Christians

Posted: March 19th, 2018, 5:16 pm
by DesertWonderer2
JaredBees wrote: March 19th, 2018, 2:58 pm
DesertWonderer2 wrote: March 19th, 2018, 1:15 pm
Why do the Snuffer types state the obvious making these sweeping pronouncements (like the one above or the recent post by Ezra that Mark destroyed w his follow up comment)) as if it were something that the vast majority of mainstream members didnt already know?

Here, I’ll answer my own question—It’s bc they themselves were that tiny majority that didnt know the obvious principle, but when they finally figured it out, they became disgrunteled and blammed the members and / or the church somehoe for their failings. You know that saying about a mote and a beam?

One of my favorite examples of this was several years ago, a snufferrite posted a video he had taken of himself trying to get up close and personal one of the GA’s. Somehow in his warpped little mind he blammed the church’s culture for trusting in the arm of flesh or hero worship or some such nonsese. It was pretty funny bc he was doing what he accused others of doing by getting this video of the GA. HE was doing the hero worship but blamed the church for promoting said hero worship. He applied his personal issues to the church at large and left bc THEY were corrupt.

Pretty funny stuff really.

DW2, I don't know you from anyone and can't make a real assessment of you. I don't have a memory to reference through your posts in getting a feel for who you are. I would love to hear about your personal born again experience when you received the holy ghost ( mosiah chp 4) and attendant spiritual gifts that followed like we learn about in the book of mormon, particularly mosiah chapter 5. In my 40 some odd years of living I've never heard what I briefly expressed, expressed in church, In the post you "d quoted of mine. I have been in a lot of different wards and stakes and have listend very attentively.
[/quote]

As you pointed out, you don’t know me and I don’t know you. Therefore I choose not to cheapen things of a sacred nature by divulging them with you or publicly on an internet forum.

Re: Anti-Mormon Born Again Christians

Posted: March 19th, 2018, 7:33 pm
by diligently seeking
DesertWonderer2 wrote: March 19th, 2018, 5:16 pm
JaredBees wrote: March 19th, 2018, 2:58 pm
DesertWonderer2 wrote: March 19th, 2018, 1:15 pm
Why do the Snuffer types state the obvious making these sweeping pronouncements (like the one above or the recent post by Ezra that Mark destroyed w his follow up comment)) as if it were something that the vast majority of mainstream members didnt already know?

Here, I’ll answer my own question—It’s bc they themselves were that tiny majority that didnt know the obvious principle, but when they finally figured it out, they became disgrunteled and blammed the members and / or the church somehoe for their failings. You know that saying about a mote and a beam?

One of my favorite examples of this was several years ago, a snufferrite posted a video he had taken of himself trying to get up close and personal one of the GA’s. Somehow in his warpped little mind he blammed the church’s culture for trusting in the arm of flesh or hero worship or some such nonsese. It was pretty funny bc he was doing what he accused others of doing by getting this video of the GA. HE was doing the hero worship but blamed the church for promoting said hero worship. He applied his personal issues to the church at large and left bc THEY were corrupt.

Pretty funny stuff really.

DW2, I don't know you from anyone and can't make a real assessment of you. I don't have a memory to reference through your posts in getting a feel for who you are. I would love to hear about your personal born again experience when you received the holy ghost ( mosiah chp 4) and attendant spiritual gifts that followed like we learn about in the book of mormon, particularly mosiah chapter 5. In my 40 some odd years of living I've never heard what I briefly expressed, expressed in church, In the post you "d quoted of mine. I have been in a lot of different wards and stakes and have listend very attentively.
As you pointed out, you don’t know me and I don’t know you. Therefore I choose not to cheapen things of a sacred nature by divulging them with you or publicly on an internet forum.
[/quote]


I'm very much inclined to believe that God does not think that his gifts when given are cheapend when we acknowledge / testify of his hand in the bestowel of them. I Understand mysteries of God that have been revealed in many cases are too sacred to utter. But the gifts of the holy ghost that are given that we should "earnestly covet" which Such gifts always follow more abundantly after receiving the Baptism of fire & the holy ghost / being born of God--- such gifts protect us against the deception of the adversary and offers hope peace and joy to those mired in the difficulty of this dark world. For these and so many reasons freely are such gifts given and freely they should be shared. Praise and honor to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ The Giver of these wonderful gifts---- which validate his supernal existence and offer further hope for The obtaining of eternal life.

Re: Anti-Mormon Born Again Christians

Posted: March 19th, 2018, 9:13 pm
by DesertWonderer2
JBs: There was this guy once that challenged true apostles to show that they had power by preforming a miracle so he would know that they had power. You and the other snufferites sound a lot like him.

You are probably to young to know about whom I am referring. Nevertheless the shoe fits.

Re: Anti-Mormon Born Again Christians

Posted: March 19th, 2018, 10:06 pm
by diligently seeking
DesertWonderer2 wrote: March 19th, 2018, 9:13 pm JBs: There was this guy once that challenged true apostles to show that they had power by preforming a miracle so he would know that they had power. You and the other snufferites sound a lot like him.

You are probably to young to know about whom I am referring. Nevertheless the shoe fits.
👍

Re: Anti-Mormon Born Again Christians

Posted: March 20th, 2018, 9:23 am
by Kingdom of ZION
iskatel wrote: March 19th, 2018, 10:29 am Maybe try meeting with a few of them and build on some common ground?

Mosiah 27:25 And the Lord said unto me: Marvel not that all mankind, yea, men and women, all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, must be ###BORN AGAIN###; yea, born of God, changed from their carnal and fallen state, to a state of righteousness, being redeemed of God, becoming his sons and daughters;
Here is a letter (with some text edited out keeping it more upon topic) I wrote to a Evangelical Pastor a few years ago, on the doctrine of Born Again.

PART 1

Was the Holy Ghost available before the day of Pentecost
that was after the risen Messiah?


I will seek to help you consider other possibilities, being prompted by Adonai to do so. I will give my best effort to help you see this eternal truth. I will not share the actual doctrine here however. I will only attempt to show by the scriptures and what the Bible plainly says upon the subject. You so often say about Bible prophecy, that it is all right if we see it differently, because it is not a Salvation issue. Well, this IS a Salvation issue, when you teach this Born Again doctrine, you teach that once you have received this Born Again doctrine, you have made it, as long as you do not turn away. In principle that is true with the receiving of the Messiah in your life, but it is not being Born Again, that brings salvation. I am compelled to speak out at this incorrect understand of this eternal doctrine, this does not take place in this age of the world. It is much more then the Baptism of Fire and of the Holy Ghost, and can then speak with the tongue of angels. It is much more then the keeping of the baptismal covenant, to take His name upon you, and keep His commandments.


What Do You Mean, Born Again?
By Irvin Baxter and a REPLY to Irvin by Kingdom of ZION

I would like to acknowledge that you have probably already studied most of the conventional interpretations of what 'Born Again' might mean. So why am I then going out of my way here to try to prove to you that the Messiah was speaking of sacred things, that almost all have rejected any similar notion of on its face? Because I know it is the will of the Father that you see it. Look past the false traditions and misinterpretations that have been taught to you by others your whole life, coupled with a belief that most theological doctrines found in the Bible are known and correctly understood, and that you must thereby build upon those premises with each new principle or newly embraced doctrine. That is not true! You try to plead with other to set aside their preconceived understanding of rapture and the end times having seven years of Tribulations. Now I am asking you to take your own advice!

Before you can move forward, you must study it out in our mind (no matter what the source), compare it to the written word, and then seek divine understanding upon the matter. And whatever you receive IS the starting point. You have experienced this for yourself, as I look at the different things you teach, about the rapture, different prophecy interpretations, sodomy and others doctrinal understandings, and the stances you have taken. Your drive to find the truth is because of the spiritual strength and drive in you to try to discern the real truth, even if it separates you from others. This commitment is greatly lacking in most men of G_d these days, not to mention fearing what men, society, and governments think more than G_d, as a whole! Then there are many who would rather continue to embrace a false position rather than admit they were in error or take a strong position on decisive doctrines or teachings, when they come to standing against foundational beliefs and the great persecution that would ensue. For vanity, pride and ego blinds most Preachers. My belief in you is that you are willingness to say, 'I do understand many of the doctrines and truths of G_d revealed in the Bible, but if G_d wishes to bless me with other knowledge by ANY means, IF I find it is in harmony with His written word even when it appears to go against it because of my preconceived notions, expectations, and misinterpretations, and He witnesses of it in my heart and soul and attest unto me that it is Him that is revealing it unto me, I will believe!' For I tell you of a truth, there are Doctrines of the Kingdom and the understanding of such that is not for the world at large or for unbelievers! I am not advocating that everything I share with you be preached openly to the world. I just pray that you might be willing to consider, ponder and pray about what I share, that you do not cast it off without taking no thought at all that it might be true because it contradicts your current or life long held beliefs.

Born Again, what was the Messiah referring too?

What if you were to find the basic doctrine of 'Born Again', as you have been teaching it all these many years was not really the whole story? Would you, could you change your foundational beliefs to a far different understanding of this doctrine, that is, if it was revealed unto you by G_d that this new understanding was true? What if you found that most of your followers might reject you for this testimony? I have seen that spirit that is in you before. It drives men to seek the absolute truth of G_d. You are such a man! An example of this is found when you could see the interpretation of Bible prophecy as to when the Rapture (actually called being 'caught up'. 'The Gathering' initially happens earlier by the callings of the 144,000 and these terms are not synonymous). You saw in the scriptures, a post Rapture after the tribulations, rather than a pre-Rapture before the tribulations, and you have boldly testified of it and have stood your ground upon this testimony ever since. What if I help you see other things in the scriptures that are not so plainly proven, and you find that this time not as many people will agree with you and they may even reject you and all your witnesses, because of that testimony? Do you love the truth that much? Because I will tell you, the reality is, of those who might stumbled upon a Mystery of the Kingdom, it actually happens because G_d has places it before them because of their prayers, blessings from before this life and in this world (fore-ordinations) and thorough His foreknowledge that it would be a blessing in their behalf, if they would believe. You know the revealed fact about such blessings, 'few there be that find it, see it, and keep it, and thereafter the world will hate you for your testimony'. Many have said, 'If G_d would just make it plain, than everyone would know it and embrace it'. No, that is not true! When it has been thus revealed it is reject by almost everyone living at the time because they say it is to hard of doctrine to embrace. Well Brother, there are doctrines of G_d that He has intentionally hidden until the end times, just as He did with the interpretations of many of the prophecies you study. May you have the eyes to see and the ears to hear, and the heart rather than the mind to feel these truths of eternity that I will attempt to share with you, and may the blessing of the Father be upon you to enlighten your mind to His truths... this is my hope and prayer, Aman (Hebrew for Amen).


The term “Born Again” is one of the most used phrases among present day religious people. Yet, if asked what the term “Born Again” means, ninety percent of the world’s church members could not give a clear explanation. I think it is a much higher percentage then that, ninety seven percent have no clue and less the one percent can even explain the basic concept, this is the eternal pattern (a tithe of a tithe, or the Holy Portion). The vital importance of this study is shown in that Jesus said, “Except a man be born again, he cannot SEE the kingdom of God” (John 3:3 capitalization added). Here in your opinion, Jesus is saying that TO BE BORN AGAIN IS TO BE SAVED. Being born again is the plan of salvation that Jesus authored (made available). It could be more correctly said, “Being 'Born Again' is the RESULTS of completing the plan of salvation that the Messiah 'FULFILLED and PAID the required Eternal Sacrifice, making Salvation available to those who comply with the plan' by His Crucifixion upon Calvary.” It is imperative that we understand what is required for us to be born again! AMAN Brother, we must understand and except the Messiah sacrifice in our own behalf that we might 'live again'!

All agree that when Jesus went to the cross, he brought in the means of salvation for everyone who will accept it. But what really happened at Calvary? What can it do for me? How do I accept what was done there in my own personal life?! That is the real point here, yes were on the same page on this one point, but it is what we individually think this means and the form this Salvation takes as to when it is available to each and everyone of us who really repents... this is where we differ in opinion. You think it is a matter of saying the words, doing the required deeds (baptism by submersion in the Messiah's name) in this life, feeling or receiving the spirit (Holy Ghost) and presto your Born Again spiritually, becoming a new creature, and you have a guarantee that you have arrived, you have completed it and made it (receiving your Calling and Election). So let me ask a few pertinent questions... when this is done and you are 'Born Again' as you believe, do you then live longer? Happier? More blessed or protected? What is the fruits of this birth? Do you repent and love the Lord, and thereby find a change in the desires of your heart to please G_d and to not sin anymore? Have you really become a new creature, and your nature has totally and perfectly changed? Let me ask you your opinion, 'If a Catholic who was converted to Catholicism, and was christened (sprinkled) as an adult, and then declared, I have been saved or born again, for there is such a different change in my feelings after my repentance, (pseudo) baptism and my love for the Lord, and the desire of my heart to please G_d and to not sin anymore, and I feel and see the spirit leading and guiding me', is he saved or born again? Or what about a Jehovah Witness or a Mormon who saying these very same words, that have received a more correct baptism (by submersion), and they claiming they have received that same spirit? Are they saved? Are they Born Again, which is exactly what you say one must receive to be 'born again'? Is there any different between these sincere people and someone who believes in your 'Born Again' doctrine? What about authority to administer ordinances and the correct patterns? Does not those things matter? Say someone in Baptized by submersion by a trained in the Ministry, Bible Believing Minister (An Evangelical Pasture) in the name of 'Jesus' (the English written version of the Greek word), and they do and say all the right things, they receive the Spirit (Holy Ghost), and testify of having received such, feeling the spirit and maybe even speaking in tongues? You would say they are Born Again! Now what if they were Born Again by your definition and then go on and are converted to one of these other faiths or deviant life styles? If they had their 'Calling and Election', how could such a thing happen? Lets say they become a flaming Sodomites or they are saved and then convert to Judaism and reject the Messiah as their Lord? Are they still Born Again, do they still have the guarantee that they have made it? Of course not, so just maybe Born Again is something more then SAVED or SALVATION, and what you teach!

And as all things were created (organized) by G_d spiritually first before they were created (organized) physically, so we were and are and will be spiritually created (organized) before we were, are, or will be physically created. These things are true, but as you so dutifully always put it, 'It must be found in the Bible to be reliable and true.' Yet not all truths of G_d are found in the canonize books, or for that matter, allowed to ever even be recorded. For there are things of G_d that are not lawfully to be udder or revealed openly. The ancient (original) Oral Tradition, not the later apostate one made up by the Pharisees, it was to instruct how to do Ordinances properly, this is one such example, and forever is the eternal pattern. How to Baptize, how to do Sacrifices, Anointings, Healings and Blessings? For when a people go into apostasy, they must also change the ordinances and brake His covenant, which is what a people ALWAYS do, for this pattern is also eternal. They must remove truth and light away from themselves and their minds are then darkened to that which they once knew. For if they were to administer in the proper form, with the proper authority, is would be a greater abomination and a eternal cursing upon them. Our Father knowing this, and because of His love for us, barred the way to the tree of life by placing Cherubim before it to prevent Adam and Eve from partaking and living forever in our sins. It is out of G_d's great mercies, that He removes the proper form, with His proper authority and the covenant, that that people do not eternally curse themselves and their posterity. And this is always done by not having the correct pattern canonized and openly taught.


Death, Burial and Resurrection


Let us first consider what really happened at Calvary. There were three steps to the work of Christ-death, burial, and resurrection. It is very easy to see that these three steps make up the act of being born again spoken of by Jesus. Aman! Aman!! and Aman!!! To die, to be buried, and to rise again-that’s to be born again. YES!?!?! So we see that Jesus through his death, burial, and resurrection bought for us the plan of being born again spoken of in John 3:3, whereby we receive salvation. Yes but Brother Irvin let us not see only the basic understanding of this allegory that has been handed down for millenniums, and think that it is the whole story. Know you not that there is always many levels of fulfillment’s and understandings of the Messiah words or scriptures, and that of the words of the Prophets? You said it, “To die, to be buried, and to rise again-that’s to be born again.” Salvation in this life is the promise of one day being Born Again. There is no doubt why most understand very little of the path of Eternal Progression, and no wonder that you see no need for being actually 'Born Again' to 'Be Born Again!'

The fact that Jesus purchased a plan of salvation for us is the greatest news the world has ever received. Aman! However, the making of this Salvation event does not really personally arrive in ones life until you are raised from the dead or is Born Again into the Millennial world. Thinking it is just an event in this life and declaring that this is what the Messiah meant when He said we must be 'Born Again', that is just simply NOT true! The thing we must understand is that not only was it necessary for Jesus to do something, but also it is absolutely essential for us to act upon what he did. Jesus told Nicodemus, “Ye MUST be born again” (John 3:7). The Messiah was pointing out to Nicodemus something that he, Nicodemus had not yet done, nor did he apparently have any concept of. The Jews (kingdom of Judah) understood the concept of Baptism for the remission of sin, John's baptism. What they did not have was the understanding of the baptism of Fire and the Holy Ghost, which bring real forgiveness rather then the promise of such. However, this IS NOT the Born Again that the Messiah spoke of. He was not speaking of the Experiencing the Mighty Change. He was speaking of a rebirth...

Now the astonishing thing is that Nicodemus was a religious leader of his day; yet, he had no conception of what it meant to be born again! We find that the very same thing is true in the day in which we live. Aman! Many men who fill positions of spiritual leadership in our world have no real understanding of the “Born Again” experience. Aman! I would say this very same words to you... Nicodemus inquired of Jesus in John 3:4, “How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?” Jesus answered, “Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus, you can’t be born again of a woman. The second birth is a spiritual birth.

Here is where you Brother Irvin miss the point. I feel you fail to make the same typical assumption like Nicodemus did, for Nicodemus was at least listening to what the Messiah said. Let me re-quote the Messiah and then restate what the Messiah was saying in the most simplest of terms. “EXCEPT a man be Born Again, he cannot SEE the kingdom of God... Except a man be born of water AND [of] the Spirit, he cannot ENTER into the kingdom of God.” What was the Messiah saying here? “Except a man be born again [born a second time] you cannot SEE the kingdom of G_d. Except a man be born of water (by a women, with a baptism of water being in the similitude of such a water based birth) and [born of] the Spirit (by G_d with the baptism of fire being in the similitude of such a fire based birth) he cannot SEE nor ENTER into the kingdom of God.” Without this second (spiritual) birth, which is a PHYSICAL BIRTH in the Millennial world to come, there cannot be what the Messiah calls 'Born AGAIN'! That is it in plain English! Without a women, there can be no birth, for even the Messiah needed to be born of a women. Was He born of a women and of the Spirit or by a Spirit (of G_d)? YES, to both! Was He able to SEE and ENTER the Kingdom of G_d? YES! Were you or I born of a women and the [of a] Spirit? NO, we were born of a fleshly father! Can we SEE and ENTER the Kingdom of G_d? NO! Then is it not obvious that we have not received that other birth here, that the Messiah called 'Born Again'! That this command to be REBORN is yet a future Ordinance and Birth!!!

Can I prove this beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the Messiah was speaking about two birth from a women? No, not by your standards of interpretations, in that it must be plainly taught in the Bible, for you to know for sure and accept it as a truth or true. Yet, it is clearly taught if one has eyes to see and ears to hear, and a willingness to comprehend. For plainly the interpretation of the Messiah's words 'Born Again' can be discerned by excepting His words on there common understandings. No need to overlay preconceived notions or age old traditions, to find the simple self-evident meaning. The meaning of this second birth or term 'Born Again' talked about by the Messiah, can be understood by His Servants, the Prophets! Nicodemus was not a Prophet. You have declared many times you are not a Prophet. I believe you think there is no longer Prophets among men. Is that not true? And yet do you not teach that the Two Witnesses are alive upon the earth right now? Are they not Prophets?

I tell you of a truth... For that which is BORN of FLESH is flesh, and that which is BORN of SPIRIT is Spirit. Is it equally true that you Brother Irvin are also unable to prove by the Bible beyond a shadow of a doubt, that there is not a physical second spirit birth? No! At least, not by the things you have written here, not at all! The Messiah was the perfect example. He showed us a being who was born of the Spirit of G_d and He saw heaven (testifying He was the only one who has ascend up and come down again). So just what kind of births do you expect that will take place in the Millennial world (a world where the Holy Spirit may freely come into that world that has no temptations)? Well everyone in the Millennial world will be able to SEE and ENTER the Kingdom of G_d? Clearly both are true! Could you be Born Again into the Millennium age because of your good works here, your faith, your repentant, and your Baptism? Yes, my Brother, you will one day see this come to pass, and then you will know what being Born Again is all about, as well as all those who are born into that world.

Why did the Messiah use the words, 'Born Again'? If it was just a 'Personal Awakening', a 'Change of Heart', a 'Re-dedication of Purpose', an 'Epiphany to the Truth', a feeling or manifestation that you have 'received the Spirit or Holy Ghost'? When the Messiah said 'you must be Born Again' to Nicodemus, Nicodemus took it as a rebirth, would this not have been the most perfect time for the Messiah to set him and the record straight, by stating that it was not an actual 'Birth', to be reborn or 'Born again'. He did not do this because IT IS a Birth! The Messiah only chided Nicodemus for not already knowing the correct type of birth that He was talking about. Were not to look for a Birth or to be Born Again by a mortal Mother here to fulfill this Spirit Birth... for the ONLY way that could happen, one would have to have a Spirit Father to sire you, just as the Messiah was.

What Must We Do?

Notice that Jesus said without being born again we cannot see or enter the kingdom of God. In other words, we cannot be saved. On the day of Pentecost when Peter preached the first message after Calvary, the men cried out, “What must we do?”

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost” (Acts 2:38).

Here Peter was giving to them the plan of salvation-repentance, baptism, and the infilling of the Holy Ghost. If being born again is to be saved, Peter was evidently talking to them about being born again. Here is the heart of the issue... does 'Saved' equal 'Born Again'? I say NO, yet you Brother Irvin say YES. Lets look at Acts 2 and see what it does fully say,

Acts Chapter 2

1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?
13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.
14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all [ye] that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is [but] the third hour of the day.
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants (prophets) and on my handmaidens (prophetess) I will pour out in those days (end times) of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19 And I will show wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood [the Son], and fire [cleansing of ones sins by the Holy Ghost], and vapour of smoke [the Spirit of the Father]:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood (the Day Star [a planet] shall come), before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
21 And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
...
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37 Now when they heard [this], they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men [and] brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added [unto them] about three thousand souls.
42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all [men], as every man had need.
46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Peter was talking to them about getting Saved! I heard no mention of them being Born Again and SEEING and ENTERING the kingdom of G_d. That is a totally different topic altogether. All Ordinances like Baptism are ALWAYS where an individual is asking G_d for a future blessing. The receiving of the Baptism of the Spirit or fire, the gift of the Holy Ghost, or having the Holy Ghost fall upon you, IS G_d's ratifying of the ordinance of water baptism and IS the sealing of the requested blessing upon you, through that manifestation. But that in itself is just a blessing, a promise that if you will continue upon the path you will receive the promise of your Calling and Election one day. It is not the actual fulfillment of one's rebirth or Born Again! Until one receives it, how might one know what it is? Nicodemus had not received it or he would not have ask the Messiah what and how it worked, if it was what he had received. However, the Messiah clearly expected him to know at least something about what it was, so it must have been something that MUST have ALREADY BEEN AVAILABLE before the Messiah's coming! It must have been something that was in the doctrine, known previously through the Prophets, and taught, otherwise the Messiah would not have inferred that Nicodemus should have already understood this doctrine. You say that the Spirit was not yet available until Calvary, so what was the Messiah referring to, if Nicodemus had no possible way of understanding the 'Gift of the Spirit'? For either the Messiah was referring to something else or the Spirit was available before the Messiah's sacrifice and either way, the 'Born Again' doctrine you are teaching cannot be the whole story.


Remember, there were three steps to Calvary death, burial, and resurrection. The way to accept Calvary in our individual life is to accept the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. We don’t have to literally die, literally be buried, and literally rise again. That is the point, IF you want the real 'born again', and yes, I know you do, then you have to die, be buried and raised again! Jesus was our substitute and did this for us. All we must do is accept what he (He) did by spiritually dying, symbolically being buried, and spiritually rising again. So my good Brother, are you saying that the Messiah was not really telling the truth to Nicodemus when He said to him, 'YE MUST be Born Again!' To except the Messiah as Adonai or Lord (by accepting His death), to repent (to die to your old sins or to be buried) and to be baptized is to be spiritually (symbolically) born again of water (mortal birth). This symbolism is the steps of Salvation but it is not being Born Again! Having a baptism of fire experience and speaking with the tongue of Angels [cloven tongue] is spiritually (symbolically) being born of Fire and the Holy Ghost. However to be literally Born of water is a BIRTH and to be 'BORN AGAIN' in other words 'BORN of fire and the HOLY GHOST or SPIRIT' one must receive this second BIRTH (in the world to come)! Without any change of language usage here, and knowing that the Messiah always speak the truth, it can only mean one thing... If you do not have this actual spirit birth, then you are unable to SEE or ENTER into the Kingdom of Heaven or Kingdom of G_d. No one who has received your 'Born Again' from your teachings has been able to do such in this life, to SEE and ENTER into the Kingdom of G_d. ONLY the Messiah who was born of the Spirit has able to ascend up into heaven, and has come down again. That speaks volumes as to what the real 'Born Again' is and is not!

21 And Eleazar the priest said unto the men of war which went to the battle, This [is] the ordinance of the law which the LORD commanded Moses;
22 Only the gold [6 Estate], and the silver [5 Estate or Messiah], the brass [3 World 4 Estate], the iron [2 World 4 Estate], the tin [1 World 4 Estate], and the lead [Millennial 3 Estate Beings],
23 Every thing that may abide the fire, ye shall make [it] go through the fire, and it shall be clean: nevertheless it shall be purified with the water of separation [baptism as we stand separated from G_d]: and all that abideth not the fire ye shall make go through the water [2 Estate].
24 And ye shall wash your clothes [bodies] on the seventh day [millennial 1000 years], and ye shall be clean, and afterward ye shall come into the camp [kingdom].
[Numbers Chapter 31, Additions in brackets I will one day explained/reveal unto you.]

What you could not do without the Messiah's sacrifice and death. You could not die, be buried, and then 'rise again' or be raised by being 'born again'. But with the Messiah, came the deliverance from death and hell. We can now be born again into the kingdom of Our Father. Not that this doctrine was not taught before the Messiah's birth into this world, for plainly the Messiah felt it should have been commonly know by Nicodemus rather than him being wholly ignorant of this fact.


We take on His death by repentance which is spiritual death. No, we take on His death by FAITH in His Death unto Life! When a person truly repents, he dies out to his own will, renounces it forever, and vows to live from that time on according to the will of Jesus Christ. Yes this is done by repentance! When we totally repent our desires is to do His will in all things, coming into harmony with His ways, choosing rather then to do are own will or following the world and the traditions of men or the relying upon the arm of flesh, we try to follow the Messiah's example. By our obedience and worship to him, He becomes our Master, Lord, G_d and Father or Elder Brother respectfully. We take on his burial by baptism in water, by immersion onto His name. Romans 6:4 says, “Therefore we are buried with him by baptism”. Baptism MUST be done by immersion; for something cannot be buried by sprinkling a little dirt on the top of it. That burial after a few days would certainly prove to be insufficient! Your point is totally lost here Brother, the Messiah had NO dirt sprinkled or thrown on top of Him! Though He was totally buried in the earth, He was raised unto life again. We must in like manner be raised unto life AGAIN! Not the type and shadow of this truth, but the actual event... to be Born Again. To SEE and ENTER the Kingdom of G_D!) Furthermore, EVERY baptism of which we have Biblical record was administered by immersion. That alone should determine our course of action on this matter. Following the patterns laid down by those who originally had the authority is correct principle. We have no difference of doctrine here. I use the Hebrew word 'Tawbal' when speaking of Baptism, as I personally dislike using Greek terms for sacred things.

Finally, we partake of the resurrection of Jesus Christ by the infilling of the Holy Ghost. This is the new life that enables us to live as a Christian should. Nice thought, but that is not what happens next. We partake of the Messiah forgiveness through the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost. For you may be baptized a hundred times by water, it avails you nothing, for there is no remission of sins without the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost. And then in the world to come, comes the Born Again birth and the promise of ones Calling and eventual Election (2 Peter 1:2-10) and even after that an actual Rebirth of the Elect, to come down and help dawns the Dispensations with power and glory. They are those who's names are written in the lambs book of life.

When they wish to cleans the Alter in the Temple that was covered with blood, they would do a special sacrifice. Water will not do this, it might wash it clean but only blood can remove defilement or sins. For if that was not so then the Messiah would have only needed to be baptized for the world, rather than having to have His own blood shed for many. Only blood can cleans the Altar or People from sin.


Continued in the next post...

Re: Anti-Mormon Born Again Christians

Posted: March 20th, 2018, 9:23 am
by Kingdom of ZION
PART 2

Spirit, Water and Blood

We see then that being born again [spiritually is but a types and shadows of the things to come] means to spiritually die-repent, symbolically be buried-baptism, and spiritually rise again-receive the Holy Ghost. Thus, in plain language an individual must repent of his sins, be baptized into the name of Jesus Christ by immersion, and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. [All things were and are created spiritually before they are created physically! And then all things are sanctified physically before they are spiritually by blood. The children of Yesrael were saved by the physical blood of the lambs in Egypt, and afterwords were spiritually save by the blood of the Lamb of G_d.] I John 5:8 tells us,

“And there are three that bear witness in the earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.”

What is the one thing in which the spirit [Father, through the Holy Spirit], water [Holy Ghost], and blood [Only Begotten Son] agree? Is it not the new birth? YES! Blood covers our sins at repentance; the waters of baptism wash them away [This is a false doctrine! Was the sorcerer named Simon sins washed away? No! Because that is not when sins are forgiven.], thus making us clean for the spirit to come into our lives to dwell. When the Roman soldiers thrust the spear into Jesus’ side after he died, the scripture tells us that there came forth blood [the Son] and water [the Holy Ghost] (John 19:34). This was for cleansing of the nations. It takes blood and water [or the Son and the Holy Ghost] to eradicate sin. For the Son is the minister of mercy and comes as our advocate before His Father and Our Father and the Holy Ghost bears record of this truth.) Blood is the cleansing agent, and water is the flushing agent. When a jar is washed for canning, soap AND water are necessary to cleanse that jar so that it might [MIGHT] be filled with good fruit. Likewise, blood and water are necessary to cleanse the human soul so that it may receive the spirit of Christ which is the [Another Comforter* and NOT the] Holy Ghost. This teaching was verified by Peter when he said, “Repent and be baptized FOR the REMISSION of SINS” (Acts 2:38 You quote this as thou it is the complete version. It is the abbreviated version or short version as known steps were left out! I know you know what I am referring too, like Faith, Witnessing or Testifying, and Baptism by Fire and the Spirit, as well as the confirmation of receiving the Spirit by the imposition or laying on of hands). Repentance and baptism are both absolutely essential for the remission of sins! Yes, but Faith must precede and come before true Repentance, just as ones water baptism must precede their baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost which only then brings a remission of sins. If one is baptized but they had no Faith in the Messiah prior to that Ordinance and received not the Holy Ghost afterwards, THERE IS NO REMISSION OF SINS!

* John Chapter 14:1-23, I will focus upon only one aspect of verses 15-23, for from just this one chapter alone, I could share doctrines with you for days...
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.
4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Show us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I [am] in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do [it].
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20 At that day ye shall know that I [am] in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

It is a false notion that there was no Holy Ghost before the Messiah to guide men and teach them truth from error, for 4 millenniums! This would make G_d a respecter of persons, giving those born after the Messiah's life, preferential blessings. Those who lived before the Messiah's life, His prophets as they are the only accounts we have recorded in the scriptures, had the Holy Ghost.

Psalms Chapter 51
9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.
10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

Isaiah Chapter 63
7 I will mention the lovingkindnesses of the LORD, [and] the praises of the LORD, according to all that the LORD hath bestowed on us, and the great goodness toward the house of Israel, which he hath bestowed on them according to his mercies, and according to the multitude of his lovingkindnesses.
8 For he said, Surely they [are] my people, children [that] will not lie: so he was their Saviour.
9 In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old.
10 But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, [and] he fought against them.
11 Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, [and] his people, [saying], Where [is] he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where [is] he that put his holy Spirit within him?

Ephesians Chapter 1
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation [SAVED]: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed [Calling and Election] with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Matthew Chapter 1
18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. [Now it is a false notion that the Messiah was fathered by the Holy Ghost, for the power of the Highest [El Elyon] shall overshadow thee! Or that anytime a women has the Holy Ghost come upon her, that she might conceive. However, it does show that the Holy Ghost did administer before the Messiah birth.]

Matthew Chapter 3
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:

Luke Chapter 1
13 But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.
14 And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth.
15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb. [Hey He was Born Again before he was even born :-) Even before the Messiah's sacrifice! I think this is one of these scriptures here that clearly points out you need to admit you need to rethink your doctrine!]
...
63 And he asked for a writing table, and wrote, saying, His name is John. And they marvelled all.
64 And his mouth was opened immediately, and his tongue [loosed], and he spake, and praised God.
65 And fear came on all that dwelt round about them: and all these sayings were noised abroad throughout all the hill country of Judaea.
66 And all they that heard [them] laid [them] up in their hearts, saying, What manner of child shall this be! And the hand of the Lord was with him.
67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,
68 Blessed [be] the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

Luke Chapter 2
25 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name [was] Simeon; and the same man [was] just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.
26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.
27 And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law,

Luke Chapter 3
21 Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened,
22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased. [I'm sorry, I cannot help myself here... so if no one was able to be resurrected until the Messiah died, and there is only one G_d, then heaven was empty at this time because the Messiah was in mortal form upon the earth, and the Messiah was the greatest ventriloquist to ever lived? He bore witness of himself, which is an incorrect principle and he was able to appear in two places at once without the use of mirrors so those around him could see this dove shape spirit of himself descend down and rest upon his spiritless body? Right? And while on this point, just before or after the Messiah's birth, He was able to sound like a whole chorus of angels singing to the shepherds in the field. And as He was preparing to die upon the cross, He ask why He has forsaken Himself. I have read all the quotes and reasoning as to why some Faiths believe such, but have a perfect brightness of faith and the pure revelation of heaven, I declare to the ends of the earth, the Father and the Son are NOT one Being! If I had to rely on Man's opinion, verses my own revelations, there is no choice, I stand in the light and declare unto all of creation, that that doctrine IS not of G_D!]

Luke Chapter 4
1 And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness, [So He was filled with Himself and lead Himself into the wilderness? Sound like were talking about a borderline case of split personality disorder... or just maybe what you believe is NOT scriptural, at least not how I read my Bible. Is the true nature of G_d totally unknown to most Christians? I am sorry to say, YES!]

I could go on but by the time I finish the New Testament, we would have ten more pages of quotes. I feel I have adequately made my point here.

When the Second or Another Comforter was needed, the Messiah came personally at times or sent other servants, up until the crucifixion, he could not administer in this spiritual at-one-ness. There was no need for Him to come to His Apostles while He was in the flesh upon the Earth, because He was with them. However, the Holy Ghost is not what the Messiah was talking about here! He was talking about himself coming and aboding with those who keep His commandments, whom love truth and can become one with the Spirit of Truth, even the Messiah who IS the Spirit of Truth, as He is one with His Father. This Spirit of Truth is the Second Comforter or Another Comforter, and it differs from the First Comforter or Holy Ghost, in how it communicates, feels when it is upon you and the enlighten of your mind. I have had the Holy Ghost from a very, very young age. I have memories as early as 3 years old in reflexion, I knew things by it at that age. I can recall also having the Holy Spirit or Second Comforter from a very young age. I specifically remember beginning to feels if often when I had arrived to the age of 12. It was at this time that the Holy Spirit started coming to me and I asked my mother and grandmother both about what it was, and neither of them knew what I was talking about. Over the years I grew to understand most people have not received such spirits, nor do they understand the different feelings or sensations that allows you to distinguish between these two spirits, the differences in their purposes of coming, who they were/are and why they come/came to me or to others. To quote the Messiah, “Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you [of] heavenly things?” [John 3]

What was the Greek words that were translated 'Another Comforter'? 243 Allos and 3875 Parakletos. Allos means 'else' i,e, different, another. Parakletos means an intercessor, consoler:- advocate, comforter. Is the Messiah another Advocate as in there has been others in the worlds or creations before this one, and He is our Advocate? Yes He is. Is He our different or other comforter? Yes He is. How do I know this? It has been revealed to me, personally. How can you obtain this same witness? By receiving that self same spirit!

You have said many times, “If it is not in the Bible then were not sure if it will come to pass. But if it is in the Bible then it is Gospel, and it will come to pass.” I have show this is in the Bible, wherefore it is Gospel, and it did come to pass on the day of Pentecost. To paraphrase the Messiah, “Art thou a leading Pentecostal Minister, and knowest not these things? You should understand Pentecost like no others. They received the promised Second or Another Comforter on Pentecost, as the Messiah told them they should. And it was not the First Comforter or Holy Ghost, though that is what is recorded in Acts 2, but it was the Holy Spirit, which is also called the 'more sure word of prophecy', and by which one can obtain the spiritual witness of one future [or past] 'Calling and Election'. So just who are the 'Elect' whom are given Him, that the Messiah said He shall not loose one of them who were given Him? That is a topic for another Letter...


Paul taught that the three steps of Calvary was the gospel that we should preach. In I Corinthians 15:1-4 he tells us,

“Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the GOSPEL which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I have preached unto you, unless ye have BELIEVED IN VAIN. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ DIED for our sins according to the scriptures [Faith in the Messiah]; And that he was BURIED, and that he ROSE AGAIN the third day according to the scriptures:”. [That we too shall die, be buried and rise again!]

Obey the Gospel

Paul went on the say in II Thessalonians 1:7-8,

“And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels. In flaming fire [Eternal Burnings] taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Paul told us that [1 FAITH in] the gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. How can we OBEY the death, burial, and resurrection? By 2 repentance, 3 baptism, and 4 receiving the Holy Ghost [Sounds like four steps to me! Three that require works and one where the Father ratifies and excepts our offering by Grace, through Fire and the Holy Ghost] as we have previously explained. Notice that the Lord Jesus is to appear “in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel.” It is absolutely necessary for every human being to obey the gospel by being BORN AGAIN [through flaming fire]. Jesus told Nicodemus, “Ye MUST be BORN AGAIN” (John 3:7). [The point here is when the Messiah appears and changes this world into a fire based world, if you are not 'Born Again, changed in a twinkling of an eye from flesh to spirit, from mortal to immortal, that fire will consume you!]

Old Testament Speaks of Born Again Plan

Let us consider another Biblical lesson given to us concerning this subject. The Bible teaches us that the things of the Old Testament were types and shadows of the things to come. Aman Brother, far more than you know, if you really understood Hebrew and their allegorical traditions. When the priests of the law ministered by offering sacrifices, there were three major steps to their duties.

Repentance


First they slew the animal to be offered on the brazen altar. The blood here was shed and caught in a container for use in the Holy Place. The flesh of the animal was to be consumed by fire. This teaches us of the first step of salvation-repentance. When we repent, we present our bodies a living sacrifice, and our sins are covered by the blood of Jesus. I do not disagree, I however see more here and a few things slightly different. Everything we are must one day be placed upon the altar of G_d. Our Blood is our testimony that that Son (our Father) shall places before His Father, and our flesh or wickedness must be shed and burned. I know you will have issues in how I am wording it here, but please have peace in your heart at this time, for I have faith you will in time come to see the truths I am sharing with you, if you will but have enough faith of your own that the Holy Spirit will manifest it once you understand it clearly and pray for a witness of whether it is of G_d and true, or not, IT SHALL BE MANIFESTED unto you, I have HIS WORD UPON IT. I am not contradicting the Bible, I am only contradicting the interpretations you have been taught, as to what it means when it says different terms or how doctrines work or what undefined truths are! I have faith in you Brother, more than you know. I have ask the Father concerning you and your spiritual ability as to whether you are able to learn anything new and embrace them, or if you are like the proverbial old dog, unable to learn anything new. You are a good man. You have been a big fish in the little pond far to long. Time to find out how it feels to swim in deep waters, and see what the world does not see, to hear and understand things hidden from the foundations of the earth until these end times.

Water Baptism

After the shedding of blood, the priests were ordered to wash at the laver and to cleanse themselves with water in preparation for entering the Holy Place. The laver, a round fountain-like structure, was overlaid in the bottom with a looking glass. When the priests bent over to wash, he was able to see himself so that he could be sure that he was clean. When an individual is baptized, he should examine himself to be sure that he is leaving the world behind once and for all. We see then that the second step of the tabernacle ministration plainly teaches us of water baptism. Blood (the Son) and water (the Holy Ghost) cleansed them to prepare them for entry into the Holy Place (the Holy Spirit, presence of the Father), even as blood (or Son) and water (or Holy Ghost) cleanses us in preparation of receiving the Holy One (the Holy Spirit of the Eternal Father) into our lives! I heard you once preach that you should baptize in the NAME of Jesus Christ. In Matthew 28 we find, “19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:” Because you think these are all the same being, you use the 'given name'. But I tell you of a truth, you do not know who the Father is, nor His name. Even the Messiah had a name before the foundations of this earth, He was Uriel, King of the Air, and is one of the Archangel of this creation. And there is no Christian denomination who even knows what the Holy Ghost is, not to mention any possible title that might be use as a name. Does it matter that a name be mentioned in preference over a title or calling? No, that does not matter, what does matters is that the administrations is acknowledge by the heavens!

The Holy Ghost and Fire

After cleansing, the priest would then take the fire from off of the brazen altar and would enter through the veil into the Holy Place. The Holy Place had no doors or windows through which light could come. The only light to be provided here was to come from the golden candlesticks [the Seven Archangels]. These candlesticks consisted of seven wicks fed by oil from seven bowls [or Vials, the seven visitation of the Day Star Planet]. The wicks had to be lit with the fire brought by the priest [the Great Jehovah, the Eighth Archangel, whom the Messiah stands in His office in the temporal realm] from the brazen altar [before the throne of G_d]. The uniting at the candlesticks of the oil and fire to produce light is a perfect type of the Holy Ghost and fire promised to New Testament believers (Matthew 3:11) but more correctly interpreted the Dispensation Kings (Presidencies) that come down the dawn the Dispensation with power and great glory' In other places, it takes about the Two Candlesticks, pillars in the temple, and the latter day witnesses that will come to Jerusalem and prophesy. Without the light (their light) of the Holy Ghost (these beings [Adam/Michael, Noah/Gabriel, Moses/Jerahmeel, Yeshua/Uriel, Yosef/Raguel, Daved/Sariel, and Enoch/Raphael), we could not SEE to live [ENTER] in the Holy Place which is where every Christian should live. God spoke of His great plan of redemption in the Old Testament in types and shadows; and then in the New Testament He spoke plainly to us so that we would have no doubt of His will! Once again we recall the words of 1 John 5:8, “There are three that bear witness in the earth, the SPIRIT (the Father), the WATER (the Holy Ghost), and the BLOOD (the Son); and these three agree [Unit] in one [purpose]”. This Old Testament lesson beautifully reaffirms to us the absolute necessity of the full Born Again plan in each life for salvation! That is like saying, ALL Truths are found herein, even though it is written in a language you cannot hardly pronounce a few words of or read, and no one can be found that can read it for you. Salvation is one of the pre-steps that leads one to being born again, and is tied to water baptism and the true baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost but it has nothing to do with being BORN AGAIN in the earth at this time. Yes however it is true, you must one day be born of thee Spirit, being born of Water and of the Blood to SEE heaven.

Some Common Misconceptions
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ


Acts 16:30-31 reads this way, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.” Many have taken this scripture to teach that all that is required for salvation is to believe that Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world; and from that point on, the individual is saved. Saving by grace is a false doctrine! Salvation comes by the grace of G_d as we do not deserve it, yet we are saved through the keeping of the sayings of His Son and faith in them both! It is definitely true that an individual must believe that Jesus is the Savior in order to be saved. Aman! However, Paul, who spoke these words in Acts 16, has some further teaching on the subject in Romans 10:13-15. Let’s consider the text: “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him OF WHOM they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? Through the written word or the Holy Spirit, or both! And how shall they preach, except they be sent?” Both of them! If we wanted to be absurd, we could take this thirteenth verse to teach that all an individual must do for salvation is to call out the name of Jesus one time and he has received salvation. Paul tells us they can’t call on him in whom they have not believed. Furthermore, he said that they can’t believe in him OF WHOM they have not heard. We cannot merely believe. We must believe SOMETHING about Christ. When Paul told the jailer in Acts 16 to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, he went on to speak unto him the word of the Lord (verse 32). The word which Paul spake was apparently the GOSPEL; for the result in verse 33 was that the jailer and all his house were baptized at midnight. That’s how essential baptism is for salvation. Aman, and baptism is but one step in that narrow path, that leads to eternal life. Paul took all these people out AT MIDNIGHT and baptized them!

Faith Made Perfect

Some would object here by saying that we are saved by faith alone. It is true that we are saved by faith, but it is also true that true faith always produces action on the part of the believer. We are in absolute agreement here! Let’s study from James 2:14-22 to verify this point.

“What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or a sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works; shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is on e God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works IS DEAD? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thus how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?”

When an individual believes on the Lord Jesus Christ, what do they believe about him? They believe the gospel, which is the death, burial, and resurrection (I Corinthians 15:1-4). James teaches us that faith without action is dead, or it is not really faith at all. When a sinner hears the true gospel and truly believes, he will obey the gospel. An individual obeys the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ by repentance, baptism, in Jesus’ name, and the infilling of the Holy Ghost, evidenced by speaking with other tongues. (Write for our free booklet “Tongues-Devilish or Divine”). This is the salvation of Calvary! “Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?” (or complete).

Not By Works

If you are still having trouble conceding to this teaching because of the element of works involved, let’s reason concerning one more point. Being born again-repentance, baptism, and receiving the Holy Ghost is not considered by God to be a work. In Titus 3:5 we are taught, “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration [by fire], and the renewing of the Holy Ghost;”. This scripture tells us that regeneration which is being born again is NOT a work of righteousness. It is by the mercy or grace we are able to be redeemed, after we have shown forth faith and desire by obedience. For can you earn Salvation? NO! It can only come by His grace... yet if you have no fruits worthy of His grace, you fail the test and are cast out. It is in the coming forth that you are Born Again!

Concluding this matter, we will cite a familiar Biblical example. In the great revival at Samaria in Acts 8:5-23, a sorcerer named Simon heard the preaching of Philip. He believed and was baptized and continued with Philip beholding the signs and miracles which were done. Many people would say that because Simon believed, he was saved. Yet the Apostle Peter said of him in Acts 8:23, “For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.” The same could have been said of Judas, he had been Baptized by the Messiah, and believed yet the Messiah said of him, he hath devil in him.

It is impossible for anyone in the bond of iniquity to be saved; for the scriptures tell us, “If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed” (John 8:36). Simon believed and was baptized, but he had not received the Holy Ghost; therefore, he was not born again [saved]. We cannot be half-born and survive (Just born of water! Aman). The entire work of Calvary is necessary for our salvation. Aman! But if you are saying salvation as in qualifying you to SEE and ENTER the kingdom of G_d, this was and is not had even after one is saved! You must be 'Born again' just as the Messiah said! Simon had no salvation because he had not been saved... Simon did not receive the remission of his sins by a water baptism, in similitude of his water birth. The baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, 'Is in similitude of ones own fire birth which must come in the world to come. Those who are thus born are considered 'Light Bearers', 'Sons of the Morning', members of the church of the First Born, because they were born in the Morning of the First Resurrection. How is this so? Because this creation is a one room schoolhouse, and not everyone here is in the same grade :) Are you where the Messiah was and is upon that path of Eternal Progression? Not yet my Brother.

The Thief on the Cross

Many have asked, “If an individual must repent, be baptized, and receive the Holy Ghost for salvation, how was the thief on the cross with Jesus saved?” (Luke 23:38-43). First of all, it was impossible for anyone to be born again at this time, for the born again plan was not yet complete. How can you teach such an indifference in two different plans for salvation, when we all know G_d is no respecter of persons? I tell you of a truth that ALL must be saved by faith and obedience to the very same principles as all others or this saying cannot be true! Jesus had not died, been buried, and risen again. God has always had a plan of salvation for each dispensation of time. So Salvation must be separate from Born Again, as salvation must be upon the same principle. Born Again must not be here in this age, if all must receive such. The Messiah was the first to rise, braking the bands of death in this creation. That is but the first step needed to make being Born Again possible. In Noah’s day the only way of salvation was to get in the ark. Not true! Most of the righteous were raptured (Caught) up unto Zion in Noah's day, because of their faith and obedience. G_d commanded that eight souls remain to Arch (Arc) over to this realm to establish to next Estate of Creation. In Moses’ day the only plan was the law. No again, Moses and Aaron received their salvation and exaltation which came (they were translated or quickened) from among all those in the wilderness because of their faith and obedience to G_d. How did salvation come to the common Israelite in Moses's day? By the very same way, by faith and obedience, being baptism by water, and then by fire and and Holy Ghost. In the church dispensation, the only way to be saved is to be born again. No, this again is not true. Only by one faith and obedience, being baptism by water, and then by fire and and Holy Ghost! Jesus told Nicodemus, “Ye MUST be Born Again.” G_d being no respecter of persons, He must save ALL upon the very same principles, otherwise He is a respecter of persons [Acts 10:34]. They all had the same ordinances and principles of salvation. Apostasy from the truth and corrupt men have hidden this truth from most people. We must all, from the beginning of time, until the end of time be saved by the very same principles... And yes, we MUST all be Born Again or we can in no wise see or enter the kingdom of G_d. But those who would not repent will remain in the grave until the end of time, to the Second Resurrection, and will be Born Again at the very end to come forth and be judged at the judgment bar of G_d, before the end comes. The will see heaven and G_d in that day, before they are cast down to hell. I do not speak of the Sons of Perdition who shall die the second death, and rise no more thereafter.

Conclusion


May we point out as we conclude this study that we have been given the first (actually it is the fourth church behind Adam's church among his posterity before the flood, Noah's church through Abraham or the Patriarch's church and Moses's church) church and the Apostles (who stand in for the heads of the twelve tribes) after which to pattern our teaching and practices. In each recorded account of conversions under the Apostles’ ministries, the three steps of being born again [actually four steps to being SAVED] are evident. In Acts 2:38, (1 faith [which Paul omits here], 2) it was repentance (3) baptism (an outward sign of one repentance), and (4 baptism by fire and the spirit for the gift of) the Holy Ghost.[,] (and then IF a baptism of fire ensues and was recorded), and they begin to speak in tongues or prophesy, then do you have an outpouring [infilling] of the Holy Ghost). In Acts 8:12, Acts 10:44-48, and Acts 19:1-6, we find the born again experience taught [ordinances of salvation taught] and [the real baptism and remission of sin] received. Why should we vary from this practice when we are to be built on the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone? Do not allow anything to turn you aside from this truth-You must be [Saved by the saving ordinances of both baptisms unto salvation, with the hope of one day being] BORN AGAIN. If you haven’t as yet, you should do so TODAY! (With the proper understand, Aman, yes... But if you do not get that outward manifestation, it does not mean you are not saved. If you get that manifestation, it does not mean you are Born Again, at that time it is impossible. You may have been Born Again from the world before, or even a few worlds before [for a few]. However you need to do so again, to see and enter the kingdom and presence of G_d!


Brother Irvin, we shall now read (all of John 3) the rest of what the Messiah said to Nicodemus about being 'Born Again', and explain it unto the children of men, so that we are not quoting the Messiah out of context. Comments are added in brackets.

“There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews [kingdom of Judah]: The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old [How does this Born Again Doctrine work]? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born [more then once]? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh [first birth]; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit [second birth]. Marvel not that I said unto thee [Nicodemus], Ye must be born again [or born twice]. The wind bloweth where it listeth [wills or desires, from the Greek 'thelo' or 'ethelo' G2309], and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so IS every one that IS born of the Spirit [Not SHALL BE (future) as you teach, but IS as in it was already a reality, a Doctrine that the Messiah was chiding Nicodemus for not already knowing!]. Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our [my] witness. If I have told you [about] earthly things [Water Birth and Born Again by a Spirit Birth in the Millennial world], and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you [of] heavenly things [such as beings who have already been Born Again and are yet born of women again and are among you]? And no man hath ascended up to heaven [in the flesh0, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in [from] heaven. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him [me] should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him [me] should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him [me] might be saved. He that believeth on him [me] is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the NAME [Salvation] of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light [which equals Truth which equals Divine Spirit] is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God [that ye may one day become a divine spirit, and one with such (not in some part of the whole as in one G_d, but in perfect UNITY].”

ALL men who are born of flesh are flesh (carnal and devilish), the Messiah alone was born of the Spirit and His spirit is one with the Spirit of G_d. Those who are born of spirit are spirit and can SEE and ENTER heaven, just as he declared He had. Has any other beings upon this planet been 'Born Again' here by being reborn of spirit here? NO, not in this world! Can mortals SEE and ENTER the kingdom of G_d or heaven? NO! Those who are quickened or translated, like Noah and Shem, Moses and Aaron, Elijah, and a few others (and as most likely John the Beloved), they can and did SEE and ENTER the kingdom of G_d or heaven? YES, but only into the lower heavens. IF you are not teaching this doctrine of being 'BORN AGAIN'... To be born Mortal and then reborn Immortal [even though it is said one born of such, has eternal live, even though it is not life eternal until you are quicken or twinkled a second time in the Millennial realm, which many receive but will lay those bodies down for a greater hope of a better resurrection in the worlds to come], you are NOT teaching the true understanding of the Doctrine of Eternal Life or Born Again! And you have not even began to comprehend the Doctrine of Eternal Lives, and having in ignorance (not wholly accountable on your part) you even taught against this true doctrine of the eternal realms!

If the true doctrine of 'Born Again' is not being revealed and you are teaching a mislabeling of a different doctrine, the doctrine of Salvation, for this is clearly evident as no one is currently being Born Again and SEEING and ENTERING the kingdom of G_d, you are building upon a foundation of sand and preaching to others to do the same! I fear that when the correct doctrine of the kingdom IS taught in the coming dispensation (that will be established by the Two Witnesses), it may become a stumbling block unto you and others you have taught such for yourselves and your followers. However, in your defense I commend you for you are trying to grasp at the doctrine of the Baptism of Fire and of the Spirit, for the remission of Sins. And for that I congratulate you for it is the key element missing in the teachings of the Doctrine of Messiah (Christ) found among most Christian faiths.

My Brother, though it may seem that I am making this doctrine endlessly plain to prove your teaching is incorrect, and you think I am doing this because of some personal ego issue in myself, or to make less of your life's mission (which you are doing!) or to in any way shake your testimony in your ability to receive revelation upon this mystery of the kingdom of G_d, I AM NOT WISHING TO DO THAT IN THE LEST!!! But because there are things you have made foundational to your beliefs and teachings like 'Born Again', and I believe with every fiber of my being and know by the revelations of heaven that this was done unintentionally, that you have just improperly mislabeled this doctrine with another doctrine because the true doctrine of 'Born Again', has never been revealed to you yet, I am writing you in all sincere with the hope that you ponder this, consider it, seek for this knowledge and receive your own revelation upon the subject. And even then it really would not matter that much, that I should go out of my way to share it it so forcefully with you, except you are planting the seeds that could potentially mislead millions one day and gives them false hope of an unreceived blessing. Whereby I feel compelled to share these things with you, and have receive permission by the Holy Spirit to do so.

Peace be unto you Brother Irvin,
KoZ

Re: Anti-Mormon Born Again Christians

Posted: March 22nd, 2018, 11:23 am
by gigarath24
I think that it mostly come down to the fact that "born again" or "bible believing" Christians don't like people or organizations that discount their "authority". It's like when the Catholic church declared that LDS baptisms were invalid. I guess that's a fair assessment for Catholics to make since we don't recognize their baptisms either.